Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
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Andre Henry 0:00
When we talk about what whiteness is, it is kind of buying into those assumptions about human superiority. Right? So we don't say that, you know, because your skin is lighter than mine, you're bad. Like, that's not what we're talking about. When we're talking about whiteness, we're talking about the ideas that colonizers, slaveholders, all of them that they can't theologians, philosophers, even scientists, you know, back in the day, we're coming up with all of these discourses to justify the oppression of black people and the intentional structural privileging, which is not a word but we're gonna go with it like privileging of European people and European descended people, specifically, those
Unknown 1:00
buildings whizzing by in the Night street sign street lights, turning the light beams here, I could drag here, the only whip on a row on our way home smelling like sweat and Cologne singing a lot of radio. Mystery. We just
Seth Price 1:14
everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you for downloading. I'm glad that you're here. So a couple quick announcements. It's been a while since it did an announcement, right? Yeah. Why not? First announcement is I bet I have partnered with bookshop.org. That is a online company to kind of compete against the behemoth that is Amazon. What it does is it allows you to buy a book, support an artist and also at the same time, hopefully support a local bookstore where you happen to live. If you go there now, you will find Andre Henry's book, you'll find Robin Henderson spinosus book you'll find many of the other books that have been featured recently in the last few months on the show. Right there in click on that link. It will support the show a little bit, but more importantly, it will support the authors of these books. Second announcement. It's been a long time since I had any new music in the episodes and partly that is because I am so busy. It's hard to track down new music so often. However, the guest today is a musician as well in with his blessing. You will hear Andres music mixed throughout this episode. And so I wanted to say that upfront that you were hearing that now, let's rock and roll.
Unknown 2:43
Mainly for faith on 99% of the need for the negro community
Unknown 2:49
programmatically paves the way for the police to move into the negro community
Unknown 2:55
exercising tactic triggers, they can go in and murder innocent Negro makes the negro community
Unknown 3:07
so tired fight against the enforcement wing alias placating the fragility of the goals of the gentrify errs so scattered A Oh reflections so they projection my kill me. I'm calling to avoid you're tired
Seth Price 3:28
the Andre Henry, welcome to the can I say this at church podcast? Man. I'm glad that you're here.
Andre Henry 3:34
Thanks for having me. Yeah,
Seth Price 3:35
you don't know this. But I've stalked you on the internet for many, many years. Very good soccer because I did not realize that I don't comment. I don't comment on anything. I just tried to learn. I tried to learn how to shut my mouth on the internet and just just read. But no, thank you, though, for your Facebook. So in the middle of pandemic, I was an essential worker. And one of the things that was my joy for about two weeks was when you were just like, You know what I'm gonna do. I'm just gonna if you want to listen. I'm just gonna DJ some music. And you were my drive home for like, I don't know, like two weeks or something. And then I think probably Facebook or music or licensing rights or something said, Yeah, you're done playing music? Yes. But um, thank you for that. Yeah.
Andre Henry 4:20
Like, I mean, I really I love DJing it's one of my favorite things in the world. And just to be able to kind of show up while we were all I mean, that was a scary time, right? Like, it's really unpredictable to be able to kind of show up and
Seth Price 4:35
I work at a bank. And so we weren't the banks aren't legally allowed to shut down more than two days. Like, that's like, it's like, you can't do that. Which is why they're open on Saturdays because there are federal holidays on Mondays. So it's like I just hated life. I forget where I was in front of the best by driving home. And I'm like, What is this? Yes, give me this. So anyway, So thank you again for that. So when you when you try to tell people like what an Andre Henry Hendricks what an Andre is? What is that? Like? What's the answer to that? Yeah.
Andre Henry 5:14
I would tell people that I am a singer, songwriter or musician, however you want to say that. Sometimes I add author activists, but they all are part of the same work to me, you know?
Seth Price 5:30
Fair enough. What's the difference between a singer songwriter and a musician?
Andre Henry 5:34
Well, one is this more specific, right? Because if I say musician, it's like, okay, well, do you play the harp? What does it what does it mean? Right? So, just more specific, so people understand. Yeah. Like, for me,
Seth Price 5:50
I play a five string banjo and a harp. And that's it. That's it. If you can't play those you don't you don't count
Andre Henry 5:57
the spoons. You know, like, that's, I
Seth Price 5:59
cannot play this. I've tried many a time. Yeah,
Andre Henry 6:03
I'm joking. I'm joking. But that's what I that's why I sometimes make that distinction.
Seth Price 6:08
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's good. So can I say, I care carried your book around with me? I don't know, since your publisher sent it to me. So if they're listening, thanks for sending that or if it wasn't you, but maybe it was your with your permission. Either way, I don't care. I have enjoyed living in and around and working in Charlottesville, the look on people's faces, as I'll sit here and do this job, you know, on the lunch break, I'm actually reading it, though. So. So just addressing the elephant in the room, because I have been doing this on your behalf for like weeks, as I read through this book, especially like leaving it at work on the break table. Just sitting there like nobody Don't steal my book, but flip through it if you want. What is this? Like?
Andre Henry 7:02
What is this?
Unknown 7:05
I have read the whole books were what it is?
Andre Henry 7:09
It's a funny question. All right, man. I mean, it's a good question, though. Because from the title, I think that it is misleading. And I don't mind it being a little bit misleading about what people are gonna get when they pick up this book. So this book is really a it's, it's like a manual around civil resistance. It's like what you need to know about taking practical action against systemic racism. But it is in the frame of a memoir. So it's like a list a little bit of memoirs, a little bit manifesto. And every chapter, I tell a story, from my own life, my own journey of political awakening, my own journey into learning about nonviolent struggle, and me looking for my place in the struggle for black liberation, to illuminate some principle about social progress that we've probably not been taught, you know, or we probably haven't heard of, in the dominant common sense around how social progress happens.
Seth Price 8:24
Yeah, no, fair enough. Yeah, it is the way that I have described it to people, in my own words, is, it's a story about the realization that it's not my job to make you understand things that bother me. But you should probably ask about them. That's how I've been explaining. I don't know if that's a good paraphrase or not. But that's what I've been telling people. I don't know. Maybe it's wrong, doesn't matter. Because it's what I think and that's, that's, you know, that's that's, that's relativism. That's what that's where we live. So you use the word apocalyptic quite a bit throughout the book. And I think when people hear that word, you know, we get some prosperity gospel preachers, we get some Benny Hinn some Bethel music mixed in, you know, the way that you know, Jesus is coming soon. And let's let's do this thing. What how are you using the word apocalyptic? Because I think it kind of changes the lens for the entire text.
Andre Henry 9:23
For sure. Yeah, I use apocalypse in a way that I feel is more faithful to the folks who first used that word in the first century. You know, the word the Greek word apocalypsis means to unveil or to reveal. And the most famous of those, it was a, you know, deeply political genre back in the day. And you know, the the writers of these apocalypses wanted to say something about society, and about the way that power is being used in society in a way that probably kept them safer. being persecuted for for that. And in a way that evoked images of liberation that their audiences would have been familiar with, like in the most famous Apocalypse that we know of the book of Revelation in the Bible. The writer John, a political prisoner in Rome, evokes all this imagery from the Exodus story, from Daniel and all these things, to kind of paint a political cartoon of Caesar and the Roman Empire. In 2016, I compared the book of Revelation to these random statues of Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton naked in New York City that randomly popped up. I don't know if you remember that in the news. But like, some artists randomly it was you. Okay. It was not me, I didn't, I'm not going to take credit for it. But, but it's fun to present, um, that. So this artists made, you know, these, these figures of Donald of Donald Trump, I think was the first one. And I think that Donald Trump's manhood was very small in that sculpture. And I think the artists did that, for a reason like to, you know, get us to talk about what that might mean. But anyway, I feel like John is doing a similar thing to that in the way that John is painting, the Roman Empire and Caesar in the book of Revelation. And he's doing that because his neighbors who are subjugated people, people who live under the subjugation of the violent empire of Rome, are actually starting to worship Caesar. And he, he writes this Apocalypse as an intervention against that. And just a couple things, I want to add a couple things I want to add there is not only does he unveiled the monstrous nature of the Roman Empire, he also paints this vision of a world that could be without those types of systems. And many people, you know, we talked about how like this was probably written to response to a lot of Christian persecution, right to Christian is being pursued in the first century. There's some historians that, you know, they they argued that Christians were, we're not facing White's wipe that widespread persecution or severe persecution at that time. But regardless, there's only one person named in the book of Revelation that's been killed, the antithesis. And so in my imagination, sometimes I wonder, if in in a similar way, that you know, black people like myself watched the news saw people like ourselves dying, being killed, all this kind of stuff. And it spurred this moment, if, if the murder of this one man and tapas was enough to provoke John's imagination, to say deaths, like these are indictment on the entire system is emblematic of something more Yeah. And to say the only way to respond to this is for us to dismantle systems like these and to imagine an entirely new world. Yeah, I'm kind of hoping that my book does a similar kind of work for black people who find themselves also like, very much operating, unknowingly, unwittingly, under the spell of America's, you know, version of Pax Romana, you know, America self portrait of itself, where we have been so subjugated that we also believe that we are a part of that we are part of this anti black society in a way that we just can't participate. And I mentioned in the first chapter, which I know I'm taking a really long time on this question. This last
Seth Price 13:43
house is asleep, the floor is yours.
Andre Henry 13:46
That, you know, support for Donald Trump, for instance, went up among black and Latino males between 2016 in 2020. Yeah, right. A pox apocalypses are meant to disrupt that kind of dynamic where subjugated people are like their oppressors, biggest fans.
Seth Price 14:06
Yeah. Yeah, leaning into unveiling a little bit more. And I feel like I forget what a podcast it was. Or maybe it was a book. I don't know. I've read a lot of crap. And I have no idea what's my own thoughts anymore? I don't know if you've ever struggled. Like I literally have no I'm like, I feel like that's original. But I probably stole that. Like I told my wife was like, if I ever write a book or anything, it's gonna be like a thing at the beginning. Like if I missed an attribution at at trip. I don't know how that word works. If I missed it, yeah, that's it. Please email me and we'll do the Kindle version. And we'll we'll edit them as we go. Because I'm pretty sure that I stole every single one of these votes, or you're giving me a problem. So when things are being unveiled specifically with racism, and I can say you were talking about like reading the book from a lens of black person, which for those watching the video, I am not a black person. I'm A bald, mostly white person. And so with that unveiling, I think is both systemic, but it's also deeply personal. And so what does that kind of look like, for folks whether or not they're reading the book. And to be clear, we're just going to timeout right here. I read your book twice, like I like one time I read it in one sitting. And then I took it with me to Tennessee on vacation over the last week. And I read it again, intentionally while Mike my kids out there fishing and playing with the kids, you know, just slowly reading it. But unveiling is different. Because like I, I see myself in many of the stories of the people that like I see myself and Kevin, I see myself in your adoptive family, not adoptive, but chapter three or chapter two or something like that, like, especially when Facebook memories pop up. And I'm like, oh, did I say that? Hold on held. There's, I don't even like I don't even recognize the person that I was. But that's a different kind of unveiling. So how do we separate out unveiling of those structures, this the systemic structures, both in a personal level versus the grander macro level?
Andre Henry 16:13
You know, I don't think that we need to separate them because they are connected. And that's a huge part of the chapter about the personal and the political. And that's why like, I think, too many people surprised, like, I start telling you this story in the beginning. And I'm like, when I was a kid, this was my biggest fear. And by the end of that chapter, I'm talking about the rise of global fascism, right, like,
Seth Price 16:36
covered a lot of ground there.
Andre Henry 16:39
This intro, the, they are connected in a very deep way. And there is a way in which Okay, so Franz Fanon, revolutionary philosopher, writer, psychotherapist, who inspired the work in many ways, or influenced the thinking of Malcolm X, and the Black Panthers and so on. And one of his books, he writes about how the struggle for liberation, it transforms those who are participating in it, you know, on a personal level, and also influences the the oppressed as a group changes the values changes culture. So I think that's just a nature of not just those who are struggling for liberation, but basically what I'm saying is, those macro things, they shape us individually, they shape the way that we think, right, and a part of that waking up that unveiling is we discover the ways that we have been formed and shaped by that domination system, and the ways that we were trained to support it. And to participate in it unthinkingly, and then yeah, you and I will probably look at, I mean, our Facebook memories and say, Oh, my gosh, like, I used to think that way. I used to say those kinds of things. I really believe that Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Seth Price 17:58
Yeah. Do you delete them? I started deleting them. And then I stopped because I was like, now these need to stay there. I don't know. What do you what do you do?
Unknown 18:08
I,
Andre Henry 18:09
so I haven't seen anything like super like, you know, like, problematic, you know, there's no pictures of me and like a Klan robe or anything like,
Seth Price 18:18
No, I don't mean pictures like this words, as I grew up, just for some context, like, ultra ultra conservative in southwest Texas. And, yeah, there's a lot that you could wrap into, like picture Ted Cruz, but a Ted Cruz that's willing to admit that my name is Rafael, you know, like, like in it instead of trying to disembodied from that. So like, some of the stuff I used to say.
Andre Henry 18:44
I mean, there's some things that I just feel like, okay, there's, there may come a time where someone finds an old sermon of mine, and it's like, man, Andre, you really were, like, pretty patriarchal. In that sermon. I'm gonna be like, yeah, yeah, that's what I thought then. Yeah,
Seth Price 19:01
yeah. I've grown. I've changed. I've Theosis Yeah, for we'll stick with the Greek words. Um, yeah. Yeah. So gaslighting is a word that gets thrown around a lot. And I don't think it's a word that a lot of people understand the meaning of, because I feel like a lot of people throw in gaslighting when they feel like they've lost the point. And they're like, well, now I just want to take ownership of this. You know, which I could I've also thought about kind of possibly gaslighting those old Facebook memories and just like making it be like memes about Taco Bell, but not editing any comments. So that when people and then re sharing it. So what just at a high level, what is gaslighting? And how does it relate to kind of systemic racism and the systems that we live in you and I?
Andre Henry 19:51
Yeah, so gaslighting is an abuse tactic where the abuser is trying to get the target to what basically trying to undermine In the target's perception of reality. And it seems like the ultimate goal is really to get the target to accept the abusers version of the story, whatever that is, comes from a play from the 1930s, where a man was doing this was wife, playing, messing around with her gas powered lights and telling her they're only flickering in her head. And this happens around many social justice issues, issues of power, but when it comes to racism, there, there is this thing that happens in these in the white world, and by the white world, I mean, those nations that were built through European colonialism, you know, and and that used anti black violence, which is a very, you know, I guess, abstract way of me saying enslavement, the breaking of black bodies to build their societies by trying to cover up that information. I use the example of me growing up in Stone Mountain, Georgia, where the Ku Klux Klan was reborn and going to Stone Mountain Park as a kid, and there being no mention of the clans ties to Stone Mountain Park. Someone listening might be like, what Klan ties is still important. Well, I'll tell you, that is where the Ku Klux Klan was reborn.
Seth Price 21:18
Yeah, well, when I read that chapter, I we had recently learned about we, I did not learn about Stone Mountain growing up in Texas, because Texas is a big enough state that the history book is whatever we say it is in McGraw Hill is good is going to make it so. So you're welcome, America, the Texas, Texas writes a lot of the history we got so I didn't know anything about it. Until I was helping my son in his seventh grade math history class, and they were talking about it, but they didn't talk about any of this stuff like this stuff about that, that you're about to say. Your books The first time I read it, and I was like, I like I like, like I went to school with liberty and other fun, that's fun. Like I would ride out to Appomattox and learn all about Lisa rendering out there. And like VMI and Robert Lee Robert E. Lee, you're like buried down where it Stonewall Jackson is buried, like just down the street and Lexington like, I was like, Why did I not know any of this? But anyway, I interrupted you. I'm sorry.
Andre Henry 22:15
Yeah, I mean, but that's exactly a part of my point is I grew up in Stone Mountain, Georgia, and I never heard that the Ku Klux Klan was reborn. On that rock that I hiked. I hiked up that rock, you know, several times. It's a nice hike. In my life. It's a decent walk. And there's a huge Confederate, the large Confederate monument in the country and the largest bass relief carving in the world is on that rock. And it is a depiction of Stonewall Jackson generally. And Jefferson Davis on horseback, you know, majestically looking into their futures I suppose. But this, this, this carving was the idea of Clan sympathizers. And the idea for the original design was to have just generally and a parade of Klansmen. That was the original idea. And the only reason that it wasn't that is because the designer felt like it was beneath his talents to do not he was not morally opposed
Seth Price 23:10
to it. You're just the same guy that did Mount Rushmore though. Exactly. Yes. He's
Andre Henry 23:15
the same guy who did Mount Rushmore. And he was like,
Seth Price 23:17
in the book, I remember reading that
Andre Henry 23:21
he did. He, he wanted to, he wanted to do something with more pizzazz, basically. And that was that was his idea was that I would do this Confederate generals. So anyway, I talked about gaslighting on a systemic level because let's bring it back down to the person when they go back up on the personal level. Some tactics of gaslighting include like lying, deflecting, projecting, hiding information, minimizing people's minimizing someone's feelings when they try to tell you about it. And so aren't backup to the backup to the macro level. They're literally revising textbooks hiding information, you know, neglecting and lying about the Civil the cause of the Civil War. That's why these this type of iconography emerged in the first place was to was to reframe the motivation behind the Civil War to say that this was not about, you know, keeping slavery, you know, as
Seth Price 24:19
states rights, you know,
Andre Henry 24:22
legitimate this was a legitimate uprising against, you know, big government, you know, federal federal overreach, all that kind of thing. And this type of gaslighting is continuing today with the book bannings and the book burnings and the demonizing of car, critical race theory and mislabeling, all kinds of things critical race theory, because this is a huge Well, this is a favorite tactic, I should say, of the white power structure is to say, the racism is not a problem here.
Seth Price 24:54
I'm skipping around in your chapters Am I allowed to Can I quote your own book back to you? The thing that we're allowed to do But so there is a chapter, I don't know what chapter it is, it's we can all be white is the name of the chapter, which did reframe some things for me. And you quote someone in here, as it Willie Willie james Jennings is talking about the fusion of white identity. And Christianity had been an essential part of the evolution of patriarchy, racism, and the climate crisis when he liberated himself from his notes for a moment. And he says, Anyone can be white friends, and then you go on to say a little bit more about that. But you put it in there, he continued, no one is born white, there's no white biology. Whiteness, he explained is a way of thinking and being in the world. Which that's not the way I think most people operate in the world. And I think that may be new information for many people listening, or that have not read willie james Jennings, I have not read that book. But I was challenged by a professor strong ra a few years ago, to only buy books from people for a while that were not people that looked like me, which is shattered my view of the world in a good way. In the best ways, but what are you, I guess, in really getting out there?
Andre Henry 26:12
Yeah, and I would also say that many black writers have made this point Malcolm X, James Baldwin, and others, you know, have made this this point as well, that race can be a very complex, calm conversation to have, because we usually when we start talking about racism, what people say is, oh, I don't care about skin color. And it's like, yeah, skin color is a part of the conversation about race, but it's not actually the, that's, that is actually not the way that you can wrap the whole thing up in a bow, right? Like, it can't be contained in that one thing. It's not just about skin color, really, racism is about human hierarchy, if we want to make it a little bit more abstract, right, and we can take and basically that human hierarchy became, in a sense, color coded right to where whiteness became conflated with humanity. Right? But when we talk about what whiteness is, it is kind of buying into those assumptions about human superiority. Right? So we don't say that, you know, because your skin is lighter than mine. You're bad. Like, that's not what we're talking about. When we talk about whiteness, we're talking about the ideas that colonizers slaveholders, all of them that they can't theologians, philosophers, even scientists, you know, back in the day, we're coming up with all of these discourses to justify the oppression of black people and the intentional structure structural privileging, which is not a word but we're gonna go with it I like up privileging of European people and European descended people, specifically, those who have wealth, right? It's hard for me to explain I'm so glad that like I have the book. So I can just say, alright, read that chapter. Because I do I do. I had a lot more time to like really hammer that out there. Chapter Six. I cheated. Yes. So But when we're talking about whiteness, we're talking about that it is the these those lies that have been passed down about the superiority of those people who descend from that, who live in that cast rather, right. And operating under those assumptions that for instance, like the blond haired blue eyed woman is the standard of beauty and classical music is the is the best form the most sophisticated form of music out there. And English is inherently a more intelligible and refined language, then
Seth Price 28:46
it's absolutely untrue. English is like the worst language to just the hardest.
Andre Henry 28:51
Right? And, and European, you know, traditions of Christianity are more spiritually vow valid than indigenous spiritualities. And all that kind of stuff. All of these things are, they seem kind of like subtle forms of white supremacy when I'm just saying them with words. But when you think about the violence that has been done, and justified by those lies, then you then I think you really start to see kind of the contours of whiteness that I'm talking about. And to your to the question, you know, I think that the title of that chapter raises, it's like when we say when I say that, you know, anyone can be white. Anyone can agree with these tenets, right? Like you don't have to have light skin to believe that blond haired blue eyed fair skinned women are inherently more beautiful than dark skinned, kinky hair, brown eyed women. Right? You don't have to be you don't have to have light skin to believe that John Calvin is inherent The more in tune with spiritual truths, then only five of them Nat Turner, you know, you know, and so on and so forth. So anyone can kind of believe that they are white. However, not everyone can be identified as white, because that's back to the color coded thing. So you can be a black person, a Mexican person, a Asian American person, and you can ascribe to all of these ideas about white superiority. But when the police stop you, when they pull you over at a traffic stop, you know, then we'll see how white you are.
Seth Price 30:44
Yeah, yeah. Why? Why do you find or why do you so you've had more of the so I am privileged enough that I don't have to deal with the rough conversations that you've ripped apart in all of these chapters, like I just, I inherently get a pass, because I just do doesn't make it right, it just makes it a lot easier. Which means I have to choose uncomfortable situations for growth, instead of ambivalence and apathy. Why is the power that comes with that privilege so seductive to people, regardless of the melanin count in their skin?
Andre Henry 31:25
Yeah. Well, I think that you've already hinted at it is that it's, it's dangerous, because you can passively support the this domination system, this violent status quo, literally just by excusing yourself from the conversation. You know, one thing that I say to people is that I say all the time is that history is not a story that's happening to us. It's one that we're writing together, and we write it through collective action. But we are so essential to that story, that when we choose not to act, that also becomes a part of the narrative that becomes a part of the story that becomes a part of history. And we know this, because when we look back at some of the big atrocities in the world, we always ask the question, what what was everybody else doing? Right? We know that the majority, you know, we know that there were a bunch of people, you know, living in Nazi Germany, that we're not actively shoving people into, you know, gas chambers and things like that. But what were the people who were opposed to that doing? You know, we asked that question, and we asked that question, because we inherently know that just because you did not act does not mean that you are not complicit.
Seth Price 33:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because what you were doing was, I don't I didn't see it. I didn't see it. As I really liked my stuff. I didn't see it. And I don't you know, I like my stuff. Yeah, yeah, no, that's good. Do you remember like last year, I had all those weird ad breaks, like he would just randomly be something, we're not doing that. Instead, I thought I'd do this, I need your help. If you're able to head on over to the website for the show, there are two things that you can do. One is you head over the website, you click the Patreon button or support button, I forget what I call it, and you jump in there, those people helped make the show a thing so that you can listen to it right now, to the easier one, you could just leave a rating and a review on the podcast app of choice that you currently use. Either one of those is fine, but I would love it if you would do either one, specifically the rating and reviewing it's an exponential thing, that the algorithms pick it up and that's just math. It's just compounding on top of itself. Anyway, all that to say that was it that was the ad break. And now we're gonna get back into it
Unknown 34:13
doesn't have to be doesn't have to be. We are like gods whatever we do becomes history. They may
Seth Price 34:28
have so I'm not going to ask you to retell the story of, of dinner and a stone because I'm certain just reading through that chapter I alluded to earlier. I haven't listened to any of the episodes that you've been on, but it is a different enough thing for for people that I can't think that you haven't been asked about that. And so I don't want you to retell that story. And for people that are like why is he being so vague by the damn book? So there's that but it is a wonderful story, but I am curious about like the voice of The role of prophecy in people's lives today, regardless of their connectedness to a local church. And then I have another question after, because I thought about this question driving home from vacation. But what is kind of the role of that? And and also, I guess, how do you respond to it? You know,
Andre Henry 35:18
you know, this is a, I'll be really honest about this, like, so when we talk about that, that experience, you know, people do talk about things, they compare it to kind of like a prophetic call narrative from, you know, scripture or something like that. And I'm, I am super uncomfortable, like with, you know, the idea of like me standing in that tradition with other people who do sometimes, you know, either say, okay, Andre is prophetic, or Andre is a prophet. And I think for good reason, right? Like I I grew up in the sense of God, I know how weird people can be, you know, about stuff like that. I think what makes me feel more comfortable with sharing that stuff in the book is the fact that like, I had no idea what I believed about God, right, like, and I had no idea what I believed about spirituality. And I had this weird mystical experience and felt like I was supposed to do it. And I did. So I don't I don't come out as like, look at me, mighty man of faith and power, you know, with divine secrets or something like
Seth Price 36:27
Yeah, yeah.
Andre Henry 36:29
But so I will say, though, oh, my gosh, when I started really wrestling with the role of Christianity in the very things that I'm writing about, in this book, the role of Christianity in the construction of this system of systemic racism in the supporting the police brutality, which I feel very, I take personally, I feel I feel distressed about this in my body, I every day I wake up, you know, with this burden of trying to figure out like, how can we fix this? How can I live in a safer world, that the prophets of the Hebrew Bible, were some of the only folks from that canon that made sense to me, you know, not just because they do things like carry 100 pound boulders around and stuff like that to deliver a message. But because they are connecting, what it means to they connect justice and righteousness. Right. And they say that these things are inseparable, you know? Yeah, that's basically their message. You, you religious people say that you are right with God, and you do all this, this ritual stuff, you know, but what that really wants is for us to treat each other well, yeah, you know,
Seth Price 37:50
and you'll all keep messing around, and you've got to find out
Andre Henry 37:54
and treating each other will include but taking care of the widow and the orphan and all that kind of stuff, like they really did. And so, um, you know, I do think that, uh, because he asked like, what I think the role of that is, you know,
Seth Price 38:12
and I don't mean it in a congregational way. So you're talking about kind of your like church upbringing, I think you said Assemblies of God. So I'm like, Southern Baptist is what I was raised. So like anything, that is not the the God inspired five point Calvinist view is definitely going to make my boot shake. Now, that was the 15 year old goal. 20 year ago, me now I'm like, Heck, now give me the mystical, like, this is freaking amazing. Like, like, like, like, the love that I'm turning into somehow out runs and outpaces and expanding universe and light like, like, that doesn't make any sense. And you want to try to systematically theologizing like this, what do you stop? Stop being stupid?
Andre Henry 38:51
And honestly, you know, I think I think that that is kind of the interesting thing to me is that like, I didn't experience that within the context of a congregation. You know, yeah, I experienced that. As someone who considered himself at the time an atheist, you know, yeah. And yeah, so. So when you talk about the role of that kind of person in the world, I first off have evolved a lot in my thinking of understanding that the idea of prophets and prophecy First off, don't belong to any Christian tradition, right? There are truth tellers, right? And they have come up in all kinds of cultures and all kinds of traditions and all that kind of stuff. And we need them. Right, we, we need those types of figures. I think that Dr. King is one of them. You know, Dr. King was one of those kinds of figures who, even though he was connected to congregational life, I kept thinking about when I started really studying him how like, This man was standing at on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, quoting Isaiah.
Seth Price 40:07
Yeah, yeah.
Andre Henry 40:08
And I think a lot about like how Eugene Peterson wrote in one of his books run with the horses, I think it was that, that a prophet has, you know, from his understanding, you know, can being a Christian, the prophet has a Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other. Right. And you're trying to what I, what I what I think about this is that basically, and I think I'm kind of paraphrasing Walter Brueggemann with this is that really like, prophets are just trying to really concretize you know, these things that we say about God, right? Within the context of our moment in history, right. Like if, if we really are saying that the greatest command that God gives to those who are in either the, the Jewish or Christian tradition is to love your neighbor, as if so, then that command has something to do with the headline that falando Castile, bled to death in front of his girlfriend and their four year old daughter
Seth Price 41:27
in a car. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, by following for those that forget that story by literally doing what he was supposed to do, and telling them that he had a concealed handgun and he was not going to get it. And anyway, like literally following the training, and it didn't freakin matter. And a four year old had to watch somebody get. I don't think you can say the word murder. I think you get in trouble for that.
Andre Henry 41:49
You do get in trouble for that. I learned that from writing this book.
Seth Price 41:52
I didn't. I don't know why. I have friends that are lawyers. And I like it. You can't say that. Because I said it once at the bank, and they're like, you're gonna get fired? You can't you can't say that as like that. What? Yeah. So that seems exhausting. So you referenced so profits, it feels like, honestly, it feels like a crappy life, like people that are telling the truth. Feels like an awful way to live. Which sounds stupid to say out loud, but it feels like it feels like exhausting. And then, you know
Andre Henry 42:23
about that a little bit? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Like to comment on?
Seth Price 42:30
Not that you shouldn't tell the truth. But like, it just seems so countercultural to the way that people live?
Andre Henry 42:38
Well, yeah, like, well, there's one thing about saying the uncomfortable truth. It's saying the thing that I know that a lot of people don't want to hear and a lot of other people are afraid to say right, like, that is kind of the essence of it a lot. And it's funny, because like, I just, I kind of just think of it as like me being Jamaican, this is something that people don't know about Jamaican culture is that Jamaicans are very direct people. There's very direct people were very honest. But there's a there's a deep prophetic tradition, I believe, you know, also in Jamaican freedom fighters and reggae musicians, which, you know, I come from my father is a reggae musician, and he was an anti imperialist activist in his youth, so that's a part of it. But so part of it is, you know, you're, you're saying things that are hard, right? And that people, you know, the powers that be, are deeply invested in not, you know, having aired out, but I think, for me, personally, if I can talk personally about it, I think that there's this also, it's not just like, the being attuned to what's going on in the world and feeling deeply about it. And, and, you know, feeling compelled to say things, even when you're kinda like, man, like, why can I just like not, you know, like, it's hard to control that not control the impulse, but to, to not respond. But I think another layer that I just want to add to that is the, the feeling that is such a big assignment, it feels like and I do not feel like I am the person that shouldn't be doing that. Yeah. Are there a lot of people who agree with I know they're, they're like I find that throughout, you know, and the tradition I'm familiar with is, is is Christian, you know, the Christian Bible. I find that there's no one that God comes to in Scripture. When God says, Hey, you, I want you to be the spokesperson for prison for that and they go, okay. I can't think of one every one of them tries to get out of the job. Yeah. I have. I have in my Live experience that a lot where I have just been like, on the one hand, I don't feel like it should be I don't feel like I shouldn't be counted among people who do that work. I don't feel worthy to do it. Yeah. And then also and then also it's like, man, like, it's, I take no pleasure in doing it, basically. Yeah.
Seth Price 45:25
So, hope. So you talked a bit about some of the you listed off Martin Luther King and a bunch of other people as well. Um, it feels like I heard it. So here we go. Let me try to frame it this way. And this is one of the few questions that I actually posed, though, I'm gonna say it in a different way, or try to. So I heard do a 3540 minute drive on the way to work every day. And it said that apparently, you know, ex President Trump is apparently the front runner as it stands now for just a day. Ridiculous. Regardless of your politics, like, it's just ridiculous. Um, that is not me either, saying, Go Biden, not a huge fan of Biden either for those. So here we go. Things were worse than like, so many of my close friends. It was just, it's just worse overall. And it feels like hope, like having hope that things are going to continue to move in a trajectory of shalom feels like an anchor of pain, like an anchor that is just like, I don't see it ever getting better. Regardless of which way we go. And I don't even know if that's a question. I guess more your thoughts on that. Like that's, like after like, I've read books like yours. I read your book, I read the news. And I'm like, I'm not freaking hopeful, though. Like, I'm not and hope I think should come with joy. And right now, it feels more like an iceberg, like just moving us towards a shipwreck. Thoughts?
Andre Henry 47:08
Well, I mean, yeah, it is super discouraging that Trump is the front runner. It's not surprising, right, like people have been saying, since he started since he started talking about running in 2015. Like we've the word. The word Fascism is kind of, you know, been having a moment for a while. And what I believe that we are living through what many other black thinkers throughout history, have named as kind of this counter sorry, this this preventive fascist reflex that the white world has to black uprisings for racial justice. I used to talk about this as like we have this forward, one step forward, two steps back motion, you know, going on toward racial progress. But just through studying more and more and more, it seems like no, it's actually more accurate to say that we have these anti racist mobilizations that are countered by racist mobilizations. And we have been living through we we saw we lived through one which was Trump's first presidency, right? Because when Barack Obama was elected as president, we all felt like that was a huge leap forward for for racial progress. And even though you know, listen, if if it's a white supremacist state, and you're in charge of it, got to do some white supremacy
Seth Price 48:53
you know, the way you're saying we still gonna have to
Andre Henry 48:57
say like, if you change the bus driver, the bus doesn't become a helicopter, you still gotta you got to do what the best. So, but regardless, symbolically, the the election of a black president, you know, that I think that felt like a Britain I don't think I know, it felt like a bridge too far for many white people. You know, and they were willing to give the presidency to anybody who had any more white and male.
Seth Price 49:31
Female females allowed? Yeah, definitely not.
Andre Henry 49:33
Because, because, again, white supremacy is also patriarchal, inherently, you know, and I'm, I'm actually quoting, when I say that I'm actually quoting the secession papers, which I think we're from Texas, like a part of it. I think I'm quoting Texas secession papers during the Civil War when I say that, so anyway, we lived through one, right Well, a couple of years ago, we had the largest nonviolent mobilization in Recent history, the Black Lives Matter movement. And we are living through more counter fascist, counter fascist counter revolution right now, with what's going on, you know, throughout American society, you can see what the Supreme Court, you know, the supreme court hearings lately, like I said, so anyway, I understand is discouraging for me, hope is not about believing that somehow some way this will work out good. I am hopeful in the sense that I understand that there is something that we can do, to fight against the continuing the ongoing project of colonialism that this nation was founded under and continues to operate. And in many ways, there is something that we can do to counter this this growing, you know, these this growing fascist revival, there's something that we can do to confront authoritarianism or totalitarianism, if it goes that way. You know, and that is nonviolent civil resistance, you know, which has been effective and all of these situations throughout the world, and throughout history, you know, it's not a it's not like a guarantee, it's not like, you know, you press a roll buttons, and you activate the, the civil resistance movement, and we all live happily ever after. But But
Seth Price 51:33
what state is the button in North Dakota?
Andre Henry 51:37
What according to a study from Erica Chena, with that studied, you know, 627 combat situations between 19 120 19 nonviolent civil resistance movements have been effective 50% of the time.
Seth Price 51:49
Mm hmm. Is that the same study that you wrote about? Where it says like, only like, three 4% of people are required? Yeah. That swings both ways, though. Right. So like, people that are like, Yeah, I like fascism. I kind of like, I like this flex. Yeah, that goes both ways. Right?
Andre Henry 52:09
Right. Exactly. The three and a half percent rule does not, you know, it's not it's not sentient, right. Like, it's not like, it's not only choosing the folks who are for freedom. And so this is what we have to understand is that it isn't so much that those who want the oppressive status quo just inherently hold more power power is not an object that can be held in that way. It's, it's diffused, it runs throughout the population. But it is that we're being out organized. You know, the the folks who want the things that have been the way that they are, they out organize those of us who, you know, tweet about the world that we want. Hands down, they're much better at
Seth Price 53:01
least don't count.
Andre Henry 53:03
They count but you know, you know, but on the scale of escalating tactics to actually interrupt, you know, racist power tweets are not the most powerful things we can do.
Seth Price 53:16
Yeah, yeah. Maybe show up to your local school board and city council meetings and use your voice? Yeah.
Andre Henry 53:21
And, you know, and organize with some folks in the street and shut cities down until they meet your demands, you know, I'm saying like, just like, the civil rights movement. Yeah. And that's partly why I wrote this book is because the stakes are getting higher and higher. That's how I feel, you know, when I first started, I was like, What relevance is this book going to have to anyone? You know, if it's about my story, it alone. But as I, as I began to write, and to share, you know, the insight that I've gleaned over the years about civil resistance, I realize, oh, my gosh, like, we totally need this information, because the folks who are committed who are so committed to white supremacy, that as Dr. King said, they're, they're not interested in democracy, if it could, if it includes racial equality. Yeah. They are going to continue to organize, and we really pay attention to the way that they were talking about the coup on January 6, like, well, I can't remember his wife's name Clarence Thomas, his wife. Oh, I'm gonna have to Google it. I know you're talking about. Yeah, I can't remember. But it's bothering me now. Yeah. You know, the way that they the way that they were trying to put pressure on the media
Seth Price 54:39
to Virginia,
Andre Henry 54:40
Virginia.
Unknown 54:42
Yeah, yeah.
Andre Henry 54:44
That the way that they were trying to put pressure on the media to support this effort, you know, shows that like they're thinking in an organized systemic, institutional kind of way. They're thinking in a, in a collective way about how to make If this happened, we who believe in freedom have to also understand that we have to do more than just throw our anti racist values at people who are literally, you know, organizing to suppress the vote organizing to expand gerrymandering, organizing to pack the Supreme Court organizing to install, reinstall, there, white nationalists sympathizer of a president back in office.
Seth Price 55:28
And for those that think gerrymandering isn't real anymore, you can look up, is it North Carolina, this still hasn't been allowed to vote in their own primary, because their Supreme Court has, you know, I'm talking about or no,
Andre Henry 55:37
I've only heard about that
Seth Price 55:39
the Republicans tried to redraw the maps. And literally everyone was like, Look, if you do this, there's like, we have a conservative Supreme Court here in Carolina. And this isn't going to work like, this is so bad, this is not going to work. They did it anyway, he got kicked back, they did it again. Like we tried to, we tried to do it better see how we move that one line or going out still didn't work. And so now they're talking about, yeah, we might not be having any elections in the primary. And like the people that are running, like, if you were running Andre, you're like, I don't know what my district is. So I have the signs that I would like you to display, I need you to tell me the yards that people put these signs in, because I don't actually know who my constituents are, which is funny that someone's still going to get elected. And I don't even know what their platform is, because they have no idea that people that they supposedly represent. But anyway, that is neither here nor there.
Andre Henry 56:33
Oh, Part I see in this, though, is that, honestly, I think that people have this misconception that, first off, that we can affect change, without organizing civil resistance campaigns. And I wrote this book to say, no, that's not how it works. We actually need civil resistance campaigns. But a misconception around nonviolent civil resistance is that it works in the more democratic society is, right. And actually a part of me, I know this gonna sound crazy, but sometimes I think to myself, What if we had just let Donald Trump keep the presidency? You know, like, we would have fundamentally not been democratic anymore? You know, I mean, I argue in chapter eight that we I'm not sure we are right now. But we got a deep anti democratic tradition from the start. But you know, for the sake of how we talk about things, what if we just went ahead and just let it happen? Like, that might have been the wake up call that we needed to actually organize the thing, because I say that because I'm, I have seen in my studies, and I know, people who have fought against regimes that are way less democratic than ours, and they have won. So in a sense, just because things appear to be getting worse, doesn't mean that our chances decrease, in fact, they might increase, they might, I don't want for us to go there. I don't want for us to live under a totalitarian dictatorship or, you know, a completely authoritarian state or something like that. But I know that even if we do that, it will still hold true that three and a half percent of the population in sustained active nonviolent struggle, using strategic plans, you know, and not not just going out and protesting, and using signs and all that kind of stuff, but organizing strikes and boycotts and things like that, that that force is still powerful enough to, to change that situation.
Seth Price 58:44
Yeah. Now, you don't know the story, but the listeners do. But so for those that are listening now, and you're like, wait, pause. So I transcribe these because I don't need anything else to do with my time. And so I will link to the study, right? Wherever you just said that word. But for those that are too lazy to read, either your book or the study itself, I went and I read the study, and it's effectively if I'll try to paraphrase it, it's effectively, you got to stop trying to bang your head against the wall, convincing someone of any in means it doesn't matter if it's racism, or if it's capitalism, or bust or socialism or busser, pick whatever the boogeyman is that you want to fight about, you know, it makes no sense to continue to argue with anyone actually most science shows the harder you argue with someone, they just dig further into their biases and stop listening even harder. And you get things like pizza gate and that kind of garbage. That all you have to do is try to lean into the people that are like you referenced earlier that people like not everybody is putting people in gas chambers but so you just have to focus on those people that are like how I might would say something if I knew what to say like you just need to convince those people and point them in the right direction and say here, you can just walk with me, and we'll do this together. That's a badly win. way, paraphrasing a long study and a long chapter, I am going to forego one of my other questions because I've already jeopardized an hour of your time. And for those listening, like the question that is I'm gonna ask the question, and you can tell people to buy the book, or you can answer the question, because I still have one other question that I asked everyone that I'm excited for your answer. So you write in breaking up with white Jesus? What if Christianity is for white people? I asked myself, What if they made up this religion to serve their interests? I think the answer is yes. Because of things like the doctrine of discovery and a bunch of other garbage. Do you want to answer that? Or we can just punt?
Andre Henry 1:00:41
I mean, I think it's very simple that there is that there are Christianity's in the world. Right. There is no one Christianity in the world. And so, yes, there is there's one way of answering that says, Yeah, of course. Yeah. The the white supremacist, you know, the white supremacist horror story that that we call Christianity. Yeah, it was created for white people. There are also, you know, Christians who walked the Trail of Tears with indigenous people, there are Christians who lead abolitionist uprisings, there are Christians who knocked on doors, you know, and, and try to win people over to the abolitionist cause. You know, Dr. King's Christianity is not pope is not it's not the Pope's Christianity. And so, yeah, there, there definitely is, and there definitely are Christianity's that were invented by white people to serve the interests of white people. And luckily, they're not the only ones out there.
Seth Price 1:01:46
Yeah, yeah. And, and I'd also pivot to say, the bulk of Christians don't live in America, there is a massive church, if you just freakin look and read some texts that don't come from publishers in United States not using it so quickly, Andre, but the people listening. So you're an artist, you sing songs and write words. I know the power of saying things out loud, and how having to think about them changes the meaning sometimes, especially as you change into a different person. Yeah. How was reading the audiobook? Because I think it's you? How did it change your relationship to these words, like in the way that you feel about them? Yeah,
Andre Henry 1:02:29
um, you know, I can't say that it really changed the way my relationship to them, especially because a part of my writing the book, included, like in the editing process, literally reading it out loud, reading every word out loud. And trying to make sure that every single sentence feels right. You know, yeah. Um, but I will say that I didn't get to hear the audio book, you know, after recording it. So I actually like what it came out. I
Seth Price 1:03:04
bought it. Have you listened to it? Yeah, I
Andre Henry 1:03:07
have. Listen, I don't know if I don't remember. I listen to the whole thing. But I did listen to some of it
Seth Price 1:03:11
was funny as your voice is like, half an octave lower in that. There's like a bit more bass in it. They cleaned it up. There's some there's some mixing going on there.
Andre Henry 1:03:19
Yeah, I wonder if they if they boosted it. I mean, I also kind of had my I don't know if I can do it. But you know, like, chapter one. I was some other kind of mode doing it. And then I was like, Oh, my gosh, like, Did I read my book, just like other audio books that I've heard that I try to become someone else when I read it. But I will say that, like, I read the book so many times, that I knew that when it was published, like, I'm probably never going to read it. Right, like, um, but I was curious about what the audio book sounded like, because, you know, I went into the studio for two days, and I did it and I left. And so I did listen to some of it. And I will say that listening back to it. I don't know, it just it feels like somebody else. You know, it feels like somebody else did all of this work. Yeah, well, I'm just happy that it's out there in the world.
Seth Price 1:04:22
Yeah. So one of the questions I asked everyone, and you've already answered this multiple times, so you don't have to? I'll just say the question is, what are the things that we need to talk about at church? Which is the book like the things that matter? For church? Is there anything that you did not put in this book? That you're like, Yeah, this if I could write another chapter, and if there's something that we should be allowed to say in church, not as a clergy, but as a human being that stands up and it's like, Y'all Stop it like this needs to happen tomorrow. Is there anything that maybe you didn't or the editors like you can't put that in there? Because if you put that in there, we're not publishing the book like, is there anything you're like? No, this needs to be discussed. And it needs to be discussed immediately.
Andre Henry 1:05:05
Well, there was nothing that they said, okay, they won't publish the book about. But there, there was a whole section about like, how there was. So one of the chapters, I think it was the black love chapter, the beginning of that originally was, I don't hate white people. But I did for 15 minutes in a church service. And I talked about a church that I had visited, where it was actually during communion. So I felt like such a terrible person, because I'm sitting here, and I'm just, I'm the only black person in the room that I remember. And I'm just seeing all these white people going up and getting communion. I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just so full of rage. Because I was thinking about how this is this ritual, where you all assure yourself that you are, you know, all of your sins are forgiven, all that kind of stuff. And what does it mean, to be an innocent person in a society where you know, that all of this violence is going on in the background? Right. Um, and I'll say that a part of my anger came from the fact that at the time, you know, I just, it just seems so obvious that these institutions that have so many resources, including people, volunteers, leaders, money, land, buildings, you know, even even ideology, kind of iconography, mythology, you know, symbol, you know, all this stuff, would not lean in to what is like the social problem of the day, and organize those resources to intervene, you know, and I, one of my fears with this book is that people will walk away, and the only thing that they'll pull away with is, oh, that was well written. Or, I'm man, Andre is good at writing, or what an interesting story. Because I could have written a book for our entertainment. Right. But instead, I wrote a book that is trying to mainstream some of the stuff that we talked about today, like the spectrum of support, the three and a half percent rule, the effective the effectiveness of nonviolent civil resistance, the usefulness of polarization, all these things that could help us to build stronger civil resistance campaigns, because the truth is, right now, and I talked to Erica Chenoweth about this, the one who did that study, she and her research partner, Maria J. Stephen. And she told me that around the world right now, we're losing more battles through nonviolent struggle than we're winning reason why is not because of something inherent in the nonviolent approach. But it's because the information about the breadth of tactics that there are to use, and the strategies that are more disruptive and how to do that is it's becoming less and less known, it's becoming less and less common. And this is, from my vantage point, I don't see another weapon that is as powerful and as accessible as non violent civil resistance is, you know, anyone can participate in it, you don't have to have a national sponsor to provide you with weapons to try to, you know, fight the US Army, you know, or something like that, like, you know, it creates more stable democracies in their wake. You know, like, it's, there's so much to it. And so the thing that I would say, is that we need to be talking about in church right now, as I say this, I have an image of the church in South Africa during apartheid, you know, Desmond Tutu, you know, tradition, I think that we are going to need to think of, like, how, what, what does our life look like, in the context of these Neo fascist, you know, counter revolutions that are going on? And what if they succeed, you know, because I have I have been of the opinion, and I could be wrong. I hope that I'm not I hope that I'm wrong. You know, but I I said, if Donald Trump wins that election in 2020, we're not having elections for a while.
Seth Price 1:09:37
Yeah, I, I've had the same thought. Yeah, I've had the same thought. Yeah. Yeah.
Andre Henry 1:09:43
And I think that I think that churches really need to, or it would be, maybe I shouldn't say they need but churches have an opportunity to use those resources and to help them build the skills and knowledge around nonviolent civil resistance that we need to intervene against that power that is trying to be established.
Seth Price 1:10:12
That, however, will require the people that attend that church to be willing to do that work, and not just fire pastors. They have to be willing. I've seen it firsthand where people are, like, get you. We're not doing that. I liked what you said, but we're not, we're not doing that. When you try to drape words around whatever God is for you, what is that?
Andre Henry 1:10:40
God is a mystery to me. And I'm okay with that. You know, that really is what I feel, you know, and I was a pastor for a while, and I remember, you know, getting paid, you know, in many ways to have answers about all of the mysteries of, you know, this, this universe that we live in. And I have found so much freedom, like I write about in the book about kind of coming out into the wide open space. Of I know that a lot of the things that I was taught is bullshit. I don't know for sure. I don't know that I can identify every single point that is bullshit or not, you know? And so and so kind of fine. Just living with this big like, I don't know about this. I don't know about that. I'm not certain about this. I'm not certain about that. But I talk to God every day. And that's it. Yeah. Yeah, I
Seth Price 1:11:57
think you actually, that's one of the few pictures that I took a picture of, and then decided not to post it anywhere. Because I took the picture before your book was released, that you say in the Gaslight chapter, find the picture here it is better to save our energy call bullshit. And just keep it moving. Just keep going. I think this once you say something like that. Yeah. Yeah, Andre, I've enjoyed talking with you. And again, I wish that I had like four hours with you because we didn't touch like, we talked about, like 36 pages of your book of a book that's got 200 something pages in it. So thank you for your time tonight. Very much. I enjoyed it.
Andre Henry 1:12:37
My pleasure, my pleasure.
Unknown 1:12:42
Because we're upset, and he won't stop because of our fear. No, we won't stop until we read. The Blackbaud is broken round here. She was alive for just a few days.
Seth Price 1:12:59
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