Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening and is transcribed from Patreon version of the conversation. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
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Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 0:00
So a generative relationality is a relationship or relationality that troubles the transactional nature of today's relationships and chooses solidarity and chooses to stop at the person on the street and invests in that person. Generative relationality is saying yes, and
Seth Price 0:40
the word body has a lot of meanings. I mean for me, I think of corporate bodies, church bodies, bodies of water, politicking bodies, my body, in any and all issues that I have with that my children's bodies, advertisements and the way that they treat bodies, there is a lot to do with bodies. Now this week, the guest is Dr. Robin Henderson Espinosa, she has written a book called body becoming as a path to our liberation. And it is quite literally one of my favorites that I've read for this year. So I would put this one and Lisa Sharon Harper's fortune right next to one another for entirely different reasons. My favorite part of what Robin has done here is that she has honestly shared so much of her story in an entirely vulnerable way that at the same time, invites whomever is reading her book into that same type of inflection. And enter looking back at what it is to be in relationship with our own bodies. And I know it has challenged me and with that, I'm beginning to like doing intros less and less so I'm going to make them shorter and shorter and shorter. And I think everybody is okay with that. Anyhow, this is the can I say this at church podcast? I am Seth let's do it with Dr. Robin Henderson Espinosa.
The Dr. Robin Henderson Espinosa. How're you doing tonight? Welcome to the podcast.
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 2:43
You know it's a it's a Tuesday night when we're recording. And it's almost my bedtime. And this is the last thing on my to do list today. And I feel excited to see what we're going to talk about.
Seth Price 2:58
Me too. Me too. And I realize I've already recorded the audio. But for those people that on that enjoy these videos, I forgot to literally hit the button. But it's nice to have a backup audio. So I realized that I didn't I'm not going back. I'm not doing it again. Because I'm too lazy for that. And there's who cares. So when you when you try to tell people whom you are like, what is a Robin? What what do you answer to that question like, What do you want people to know?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 3:30
You know, I mean, I think it it depends on who's asking that I tend to say I'm a trans queer Latina X. And I'm politicized theologian and adult on the autism spectrum. And then, if people aren't interested in my my professional stuff, I just say I'm a bit of a nerd. And I'm an idea farmer. I farm ideas.
Seth Price 4:08
And I don't think anybody's ever told me that I am an idea farmer. What is the what is the fertilizer for that? Like, this is not what the book is about. We're gonna talk about your book in a minute. So yeah, um, I don't want to bury the lead. How do you call it like, what is the Fertile Crescent land for IDEA farming? And then how do you fertilize that like, what does that look like for you?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 4:27
Well, you know, it's relationship. It's our brains collectively thinking together. The terrain is the never receding horizon of possibility. The fertilizer is imagination.
Seth Price 4:50
Huh? Yeah. As you describe that I'm reminded of literally the universe which is ever expanding constantly. Yeah. Yeah. Which is freaking mind. Bowling. Yeah, yeah. So, quick question I asked anybody that is ever from the Texas region. It is a tongue in cheek question, but it matters to me because you know, there's that Texans just think differently I think. So if what is the only you know, God ordained fast food burger? Is it In and Out Burger being that I know that you've lived in both California and Texas or is it water burger? And it's definitely water burgers. Yes. See this? We're gonna get along great. Yeah, absolutely. And in fact,
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 5:33
they have a water burger into the sea now. Yeah, about 15 or 20 minutes from my house. And so it's almost like I'm in Texas. I mean, our politics here in Tennessee are very similar to Texas. I chose the repression, the repressive politics of Tennessee over the repressive politics of Texas, and I thought I was doing a good job. But now after all the anti trans bills I'm questioning my own logic. Well,
Seth Price 6:03
that's not just Texas. I feel like that's that's many places. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's an entire Yeah, that's that's a whole thing. So you wrote a book called body becoming a path to our liberation. And even those words are a big thing. If you were to try to summarize just what becoming is because you even say it in the book, but you say it's like it's become a buzzword. And the thing that I hear people say often is, you know, we're human becomings which I think they mean more in like a metaphysical centering way. What are you trying to get at specifically with body becoming?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 6:42
Well, I, I you know, I'm trained as a theologian, ethicist, and I've read a lot of continental philosophy, and I'm particularly attracted to French postwar philosophy. Michel Foucault and Jill Deleuze in particular. And Deleuze and his comrade Guattari. wrote a bunch of stuff together. Guattari was a French psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, and Deleuze was a philosopher. And they conceived of becoming, in collaboration, and, and if and if you want to boil it down to one word that is intelligible because most of their work is unintelligible and written in a way that is, like you're trying to read mud. But becoming is change and change on both a macroscopic way and a microscopic way. So both cellular and global, or planetary. And what I'm trying to do in the book, is talk about how democracy is becoming, and how bodies are becoming. And when we cultivate the necessary relationship with ourselves and each other. We can participate in a democracy. That is the aspiration of life expressed solely in community, and that is what gets us to liberation.
Seth Price 8:35
So what do you mean? So there's this thing so you you go a little bit further in the book. It's actually the first thing that I highlight it, you use the word generative relationality? Yeah, really? I can't say that word this late at night. Generative. relationality. There we go. Yeah. Yeah. What is that? Like? What does that mean? Those two words for some reason in my head. And Robin, just real quickly, like our Dr. Robin, I forget exactly what you told me to say. I apologize. I had to constantly stop. I love the way that you use words in a different way as you write than what I normally like words like fears that I don't read. You started like the intro with rhizome ride ride. Ride. Masoom, right. I can't even say the word. Yeah. Yeah. I had to ask my wife who's a nurse. Like what the heck is somatic mean? I know that's a word that I've heard you say my dear, what is that? She's like, Yeah, it just means body. I'm like, okay, like, I just, I liked the new words. First off, but yeah, what does generative relationality? Like, how does that reshape our bodies and our becoming? And then democracy and democracy feels like you're using it in a different way than what people would hear in television. So can you rip that apart of it?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 9:45
Yeah. So let's think. Let's just think about the traditions that we come from. So, you know, Christianity comes from Judaism in many respects. And you law talks about how Jewish Oz is chiefly concerned with the dignity of all people. And so Jewish law says that you should not pass over someone in need that, that you should have some sort of connection. So think about people who ask for money on the street or ask for food on the street. A generative relationality would be to stop, ask them what their name is. And not just pass them by. You know, it's a question of charity versus solidarity. So generative relationality is a relationship or relationality. That troubles the transactional nature of today's relationships, and chooses solidarity and chooses to stop at the person on the street and invests in that person. Generative relationality is saying yes, and, and I think we see this in, in many different ways in the world's religions. But we don't practice it very much in society.
Seth Price 11:34
Do you think that's because of the way that we're? So how can I say this in a way? That doesn't sound political? I don't know that I can. Do you feel like that is just inherently humans? Or is that a product of capitalism? Or is it a product of exceptionalism? Or is it a product of just only caring about myself like narcissism, that I've just cognitively dissonance away?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 11:59
You mean, the the transactional nature?
Seth Price 12:02
Yeah, where like, I walk past people on the thing. And like, yeah, if you're not in my family, and even if maybe even if you're in my family, it's fine. All I care about is what I need for me.
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 12:13
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a combination of whiteness, and the culture of whiteness, disassociate ourselves, from ourselves and each other. So we have no lineage. And as a mixed race person, I am, you know, conditionally white until I start talking about my family. But I have to remember that I am conscripted into whiteness, and I am conscripted into being disassociated at a at a cellular level. So I do think it's about whiteness, I do think it's about Neo liberalism, and the ways in which we have created a culture of hyper individualism. I do think it's about capitalism, and the extractive nature and the exploitive nature of capitalism. All of these things don't encourage generative relationality. Just look at how often I mean, I know that we've been living in a pandemic for the past two plus years. But look at how often we get together with people. How often do we share a meal with one another? I mean, others think we need to go back to some very basic things and rituals, like sharing a meal together. And, and, and recovering the generativity of just practicing ritual together. But, you know, many folks have moved to the suburbs and choose fast food over communal food,
Seth Price 13:59
which is fine if it's water burger, but only water.
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 14:02
Right, which is fine. If it's water burger. You should also be sharing a water burger with a friend. And aren't their fries so good,
Seth Price 14:12
especially with that gravy? I don't know. I dip it in the gravy. Maybe? Um, yeah, I might be heretical. Doesn't matter. No, that's kind of like
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 14:19
Texas. butene.
Seth Price 14:23
Either way, it's good. Yeah. Doesn't matter what it is, is just good.
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 14:28
Yeah, you have to come to Tennessee and we'll go to water burger together.
Seth Price 14:31
That's done. I can do that. Yeah, Nashville is set. It's only
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 14:35
about eight hours. Yeah. Eight and a half hours. Yeah. And you gain an hour when you come here. So
Seth Price 14:40
Oh, I thought Nashville was still. So is it eight, so you're an hour behind me?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 14:44
Yeah, let's say 30. Here. Nashville is Central Time. Knoxville is Eastern time.
Seth Price 14:50
It was I thought for some reason it was Memphis I thought it was literally the Mississippi that did it. But it's been a while since I made that drive. It's been a while since I made that drive. Do you so you use the word conscripted there, and I literally only scripted not a play on words there one question for you today. And you use the word conscripted in, there's like 90 pages that separate it. So back in the beginning of the book, and I did not write down the page number you talk about, you have often been, or maybe you've felt like, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you said, conscripted into progressive theology. And then you go on to say something else, which I'd like to kind of know what that means. But then later on, and I do have the page number for this one, because that's when I realized, Wait, I've heard that before. You say that you have been conscripted, that later you were conscripted into ideology, ideologies and supremacy cultures. Yeah. So when you say conscripted, what do you mean by that? And then how is like, how are those two interplaying with one another?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 15:47
Well, conscripted, when I'm using it there, I'm talking about we are our I am, or I have been woven into the fabric of progressive theology or progressive Christianity, when really, it doesn't reflect my theological commitments. You know, because I'm trans and queer than that I must be a progressive theologian. But I'm actually not. I am a liberationist. And progressivism still relies on a sort of liberal 19th century liberal agenda.
Seth Price 16:35
I was gonna say fundamentalism just in a different way. They're the same coin. Yeah,
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 16:40
yeah. Yeah. And I just progressivism doesn't go far enough for me.
Seth Price 16:48
Yeah. And then for the other part, so how are not just you, I guess, by proxy. Humans, are conscripted into ology ideologies and supremacy cultures. So is that a product of our upbringing? Is it a product of the way that we're told to identify like to function in society? Like, how does those kind of play together?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 17:12
Well, in the same way, right socialization, the choices that we make what we've inherited. You know, you know, so much of human life is wrapped up in macneice's, which is a Greek word that means imitation. we imitate models. My next book is on belonging and freedom using mimetic theory. And so I'm thinking a lot about models. And we're conscripted based on the models that we follow based on the models that we imitate. And I don't think that we are imitating Jesus, because we have created a dumpster fire in many respects.
Seth Price 17:59
And mimetic theory there would be based predominantly on Gerard or, yeah, Rene Girard. Yes. So you like the French the like the the other names? Because I felt like one of the other philosophers that you said at the beginning are thinkers that you said at the beginning, it felt like a French name. Maybe it was
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 18:14
Jill Deleuze and Michel Foucault. Yeah,
Seth Price 18:17
yeah. Do you read French?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 18:19
So I used to be able to read French, but I do know, I no longer read French.
Seth Price 18:24
I only read Pinot Noir. And random things on on a wine bottle. But I don't I don't actually know what that means. I don't know. I just can read the word. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 18:35
Armenians night, does it? Yeah.
Seth Price 18:38
And Pina then is good night, I don't know, I'm just making stuff up. I don't know what I mean, I will Google it now. Because it's gonna bother me, I won't be able to sleep until I know what it means. So what is a body? And you asked that question multiple times throughout the book? Because I feel like if you ask that question to say, 50 people on the street, you're going to get some very concrete answers, some very, look at this answers. And you might get some other more esoteric answers. And so what is a body in the way that you're approaching it in your text.
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 19:12
So a body is we are a body, but we are comprised of bodies. Together, you and I are an interpersonal body. And then together, we are connected to a larger body, which is our cultural body or our collective body or our democratic body. And, and we're all impacted by you know, it's kind of like the butterfly effect. When I pull the string here, on this end, it shows up the other side of the world. And, you know, we also we also belong to a planetary body. So it's not just, you know, we're kind of like Russian doll sets, you know nested dolls, and, and all of us together make a huge body. But yeah, we're where we are bodies comprised of bodies. And we are in relationship with lots of different bodies comprised of other bodies.
Seth Price 20:26
A Russian doll set of bodies, the mental picture of humans being housing humans housing humans, housing humans. Yeah, that's I don't know that. Yeah. That's that's not a nice picture. It's quite grotesque the way that not that that's how you meant it. I just can't stop envisioning that way. So with that thought process being in there, and I think that you're right, we are not modeling. Jesus. What does that mean for the disjointedness of humanities that make up be at church bodies? Be it our religious bodies, if it doesn't happen to be church? Could be any religion? Any? Because the Bible seems to be pretty clear, you know, that we are all collectively in this together? Yeah. So how do we begin to repair oneself so that our bodies can actually work in relation so that my arm can work in relation with your legs?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 21:21
Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I feel like the repair work. And the reparative work is really vital right now. I mean, there's, I feel like there's a lot of need for reparative and repair work, from land sovereignty and land justice, to climate change. But we can start repairing our bodies. I mean, I started by just walking into my therapist office. And asking her how do I have a relationship with my body, you know, I just, I was so disconnected and so disassociated, that I was living life from my shoulders up. And I didn't know how to feel or how even to be in my body. And I had heard for for a long time. Don't lose yourself in the academy. And I sort of was like, What am I gonna lose myself, I don't even know what that means. But what I realized was, you know, I had become a machine where I read and I wrote, and I published, and all the sudden, my materiality kind of evaporated, so to speak. And so I had to do a lot of repair work of just repairing the relationship to self. And I think when we start repairing the relationship to self, when we start doing the inner work, we can begin to live that out in public ways.
Seth Price 23:15
Do you remember like last year, I had all those weird ad breaks, like he would just randomly be something, we're not doing that. Instead, I thought I'd do this, I need your help. If you're able to head on over to the website for the show, there are two things that you can do. One is you head over the website, you click the Patreon button or support button, I forget what I call it, and you jump in there those people helped make the show a thing so that you can listen to it right now. To the easier one, you could just leave a rating and a review on the podcast app of choice that you currently use. Either one of those is fine, but I would love it if you would do either one specifically the rating and reviewing it's an exponential thing that the algorithms pick it up and that's just math it's just compounding on top of itself. Anyway all that to say that was it that was the ad break and now we're going to get back into it
I'll go back to the metaphor you you began at the beginning so you can get lost then in in things that you are naturally good at so in your case farming ideas and lose sense of of yourself. What is the relationship of body to mind and I guess soul if you want to call it that as well?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 24:33
Yeah, you know, I write about this in the book where I walked in to Dr. Edward Antonio's office and said I wanted to write on the materiality of the body. And, and he said, You mean the mind? And it wasn't until I started writing The book was he saying the body had a mind, or the mind was a body. And I come to learn that every cell that is structured in our body has like a brain. So every part like yes, we do have a brain that is ensconced in our skull. But there are multiple minds in our body. DNA cellular structures that those embody some sort of brain activity. And, and yet, we have perpetuated the disconnection between body and mind or body and soul. I don't know where the soul resides.
Seth Price 25:45
I don't know that anybody could say that. They do. though. I am happy with that. I am happy with that movie soul and what they did with it. I love what they've done with those little you know, I'm not seeing that. That's on Disney plus, right? I can't. Oh, it's amazing. So I don't want to ruin it for you. But it's, you know,
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 25:59
don't tell me I want to see it. It's, it's, I also want to see turning red.
Seth Price 26:04
I watched that with a family literally over the weekend. And I really wanted to like it. And for some reason, I can't and I don't think it's the story. The story is actually quite good. There's something off about the animation for me, if you watch the Spider Man into the spider verse. Have you watched though? No, not yet. So that one is animated in a specific way where the frames per second are janky at the beginning. And as he gets more understanding of who he is, things begin to line up. Like it's it's animated in a very intentional way. Something in this red movie with like, there was something like as I watched it, I kept being bothered by just the animation. And it kept disjointed me from the story. I think I'm actually gonna watch it again with the subtitles on so that I'm reading it instead of looking at it. Yeah, because I think I liked it. But I also did not like it because I walked away, just frustrated with the show had nothing to do with the show. But now they they tackle the concept of soul in that movie in a way that I've never seen, that made me have great, great thoughts and Pon durations. There's a big section here, where you talk about which bodies matter. And then later on maybe 100 pages, you start rattling out at the beginning of writing this book, you know, we've got COVID, we've got George Floyd, we've got 250 cases of people just getting murdered because they're the wrong skin color. We've got this, that and the other. Where do we go with that? Because a lot of people talk and a lot of people talk and a lot of people continue to get murdered and be devalued. So what do we do with that?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 27:38
Well, you know, racism originated as white on white violence. And we're seeing that as a power struggle between Russia and Ukraine. In the end, it's been exported, or imported into the United States, as quite violence against indigenous people, white violence against people of color, white structural violence, you know, in the form of police brutality against black and brown, folks. So, I think that in large part, white folks and white passing folks need to do some work around what they've inherited, what we've inherited. And how we, how we are in relationship with power. And how do we compost violence and, and strategies that result in violence. So we've got work to do.
Seth Price 28:53
Yeah. Do you mean compost in that way, in, let it help it to continue to break down and turn it into fertile soil that we can actually do something with is that what you mean by compost? Want to make sure I'm not Yeah, it's okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Towards dead center, the book. Yeah, maybe literally dead center. You have an Octavia Butler quote, and I'm embarrassed to say I've never read anything by Octavia Butler. But I liked the spin that you and your partner have on it. And I'd like you to rip it apart of it. So I'm going to read the original quote, and then read what you have as well. So you say or she says, Everything you touch, you change, everything you change changes you. The only lasting truth is change. God is change which you then are your partner then riffs on and says all that you touch, you move, all that you move moves you the only lasting truth is movement. God is movement. What for those that have not read the book, which will be most of the people listening, what does that mean? Like God is like movement like what? What does that mean?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 30:00
I think it could mean that God is becoming. And that in that we are participating in that becoming, you know, I think we have to remember that God became human so that humans can become divine. I mean, that's the tradition. It's called Theosis. And we've forgotten that, and, or some of the traditions that have perfection as a goal, we may never achieve it, but we should always strive to be perfected in Christ. That's about becoming, and I don't mean perfectionism, because that's wrapped up in white supremacy. But I mean, a kind of a kind of becoming in a perfected state, where we are where we are aligned with the logic of liberation, and movement, movement and becoming movement and change. Those are all kind of wrapped up together for me in a in a web that sort of exposes how deeply interconnected all things are.
Seth Price 31:15
Yeah, what our bodies becoming liberated from?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 31:25
Well, you know, just when I think about our current situation, I think about the structural inequities that impact marginalized bodies. And so I think that the logic of liberation creates conditions for a kind of radical freedom and in the abolition of the systems. And we have to remember that, that abolition is about life affirming systems. And so it's not just, it's not just shutting down prisons, it's creating systems where there's where there's flourishing, opportunity for flourishing. And so bodies have a chance marginalized bodies have a fighting chance to flourish. And I think if we're not concerned with the positivity, of liberation, like if we're only concerned with how to eradicate oppression, this is why I talk about composting supremacy culture, instead of dismantling supremacy culture. Because the work of abolition is creating conditions for flourishing, not just not just shutting down prisons or, or shutting down surveillance structures, right. It's creating opportunity. And I think that's what marginalized bodies need, they need opportunity to survive, and they need opportunities to flourish. And without the right kinds of systems in place. Things like structural inequity. And structural inequity, will continue to marginalize and accelerate oppression.
Seth Price 33:36
Is the role of building the compost bin or supervising putting things into that? Is that a role of governmental systems? Or is that the role for the church? Is it a mix of both? And depending on that answer, actually doesn't really matter the answer, how do we hold those that are supervising? What goes into the compost bin because I have one outside. And I live right outside the Blue Ridge Parkway. And if you put the wrong thing in there, bears will be in my backyard. And so composting is wonderful. It can also be destructive, if done incorrectly, it can also be harmful. I can have entirely too much nitrogen in there and literally burn everything that I'm trying to grow because I put too much stuff in here. So whose role is it to supervise that and shepherd that?
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 34:32
Well, this is this is where relationships really make make a difference. I don't know that we need a supervisor but we need community to to help steward the compost bin. We I mean, bad theology kills and everything is theological and all theology is at So, you know, the legislature is making theological decisions in their policy making. So it is the government's responsibility to steward parts of the compost bin. And it's also the church's responsibility. And it's also the community's responsibility. I mean, if we're going to survive this world, which, you know, is really sort of spinning off the rails, it's going to require us all together to learn how to dance together, and we just, we just aren't dancing well together.
Seth Price 35:45
Yeah, I don't remember you tackling this role specifically in your book. But I'm curious, your input. Bye, bye. Don't believe that you have children from whatever but I do. How do I be mindful in the way that I approach? My children's identity? I don't mean, sexual. I don't mean gender. I don't mean religious, I just mean their core, what my pastor would call their soul child like what their essence. How do I or how would you say is a good way to approach parenting in a way that fosters an ability for the youth that are under our, under our purvey to be in a healthier place as they enter into adulthood? And, and not have to struggle so much? With becoming and maybe I'm not asking that question. Right. I hopeful, I hope that what I'm trying to ask is coming across a funnel, try to restate it.
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 36:45
Well, I mean, I think I think those of us with children need to trust our children. And I think we've relied on a parenting framework that puts parents as the expert and children as the learner or the inner expert. And, and really, nobody's an expert. Because what kids are growing up today with I did not have to face when I was a kid. So that doesn't make me an expert on our current system. And so, you know, figuring out how to trust our kids and then stewarding connection and having hard conversations and, you know, socializing our kids in ways that help them make better decisions. The world is no longer black and white.
Seth Price 37:50
I never honestly never was it never was. Yeah, it was just highly edited. Yes, yeah. Yeah, highly edited. No, yeah. The reason being is I am so fearful, not as a parent, but as a human, that somehow were made. I'm so terrified that I'm making it worse. And not just me, like my, my generation, because I feel like people my age, and I think we're in similar age. Like, I'm just so mad that it seems like every seven years things seem to fall apart. And I don't know how to not have that bleed in. Yeah, to relationships. But he and my daughters, they don't have the underlying trauma of growing up with all of that, right? I'm just throwing it on them. So I'm always terrified. So I thought, I thought it was a good question to ask. Just because I just genuinely don't want to screw up. I think I don't think any parents want to screw up. Yeah, just,
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 38:49
but at least you care, right? I mean, there are a lot of parents who don't give a fuck. But but you actually care. How your kids enter the world?
Seth Price 38:59
Yeah, yeah. Well, part of that's because they're gonna pick you know, I can pick what nursing home they put me in later, and I want them to be nice to me. No, no. Not, not really. Um, but but a little bit, but not really. Um, so a couple existential questions. Before I let you go, because I like to end with with a few. And this is a new question that honestly is popped up over the last few days. And so you'll be the first person that I asked this to? What is the best way I'm going to rip apart a parable of Jesus? What's the best way to identify that one? Instead of rocking and rolling with the 99? And what's the best way to identify that person? And then intentionally go and find them, seek them out? Bring them back to the body.
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 39:46
I mean, I think being faithful in the small things. And few of us know how to do that because we're very attracted to the applause of life.
Seth Price 40:02
Yeah, no, yeah, that's nice. Yeah. When you try to wrap words around whatever God is, or the divine, or whatever that is, what is that for you
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 40:22
you know, when you pour gingerale or champagne into a glass and and you get these bubbles and then the bubbles disappear. That's a little bit like God for me that it's there. It's effervescent. You can you can almost grasp it and then it's gone. It's it's an elusive sort of elusive becoming.
Seth Price 40:56
Hmm. And it tickles on the way down. Right. Tickles on the way down. Yeah. Robin, thank you so much for your time tonight. Where when the book is out what March 25,
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 41:12
march 29, march 29. But some people are getting it early. Because wherever you buy books, people, they're they're getting it early. So I just found out today someone received their books. So go on, and Amazon and bookshop and other places are releasing in early.
Seth Price 41:32
Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. So I have figured out I don't know how to do this, yours will be the first one that I've done this with. I was reached out to by a bookseller that basically partners with local bookstores and so people that are on the show, they can click the show notes. And it will literally order a book from a local bookstore. I don't remember exactly the name of it, because they sent me I'm we're still working on how to make it work. And but hey, for people listening, by the time this is out, I will have figured out how to make that work. I'm not the best at the Internet. I work at a bank. I'm pretty good at that. Not good with math and numbers. I'm okay with Jesus. But I'm not the best at the Internet. actually kind of abhor the internet. Yeah, but where do you want people to go to kind of engage in the work that you do? Point people where they should be? I don't know how to say that sentence.
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 42:26
Yeah, um, when I left my faculty posts in Berkeley and moved to Nashville, I launched my academic scholarship as a collaborative project dedicated to social healing, a little bit like less follow Jesus together and try to build another possible world. And that's called the activist theology project. We are a 501 C three, nonprofit organization. And we're building a digital community. And you can go to www dot att porch.com. So activists theology porch calm, because I think some of the best conversations happen on front porches. And you could connect with me there. Hopefully, we'll have some book discussions there. You can also find the link to the online book event that we're having on April 2. But I would say you know, sure, you can follow me on Twitter, Instagram at AI Robin. That's the letter i Our OB GYN. But if you want to be engaged with other people who are curious about how to build another possible world, check out our app at porch comm.
Seth Price 43:33
I do not know that that existed. Yep. I'll check it out tonight. Yeah, I did not know that. Yeah, I'm all about community is one of my favorite places to be is a private Facebook group. That that cards on the table. I did make. I rarely post but I read almost everything. But it's a place that you're not allowed to solicit, advertise. It's just a place to ask honest questions and say whatever the hell you need to say. Yeah, cuz you need to say, yes, one of my favorite places to be so cool. Yeah, thank you again for your time this evening, very much. Enjoy talking with you.
Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza 44:05
Thank you. And let's do water burger coming to Nashville.
Seth Price 44:08
Well, I'll figure it out.
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