Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Jonathan W 0:00

The Gospel of John Chapter Three that this happens in Acts I think nine but also happens in in John's three where the disciples of different people gather together and say, Hey man, hey, hey, you're really popular. But then do it's more popular than you like, we gotta we gotta we gotta get our shit together like, like Jesus does baptizing more people than you? Can you like, get on it right now? Like, because I'm following you and I'm down, but like, I don't I don't have we enroll in his deepest him. So like, right, and then this is the moment. And I think there's this moment where John says, like, I can only receive I can only give what I received. Right? And so he actually, you know, stands against the, the the will at the willingness of the people to prop him up. Right. And so, we see that also where it's like, when Paul's people and Peters people and Apollo's people like come together. Hey, hey, Paul. Hey, hey, hey, Peters over there. Like he's throwing his jacket out at people to get healed. Like, what are you doing? Like, we got to step our game up, you know? And

Seth Price 1:09

Benny Hinn is that with that as you're digging?

Jonathan W 1:12

Well, Benny Hinn got it from Peter has actually worked. I don't know what was in his jacket, maybe. I don't know. But like the reality that like, I think we as people desire in like Israel to have a kid, like we just want to King want to put somebody there. And it takes I think it takes a special kind of person to reject it.

Seth Price 1:47

I could not, resists the chatter of everybody online discussing this new show that I just had not seen yet. And I really did not want to get another subscription service. Because I knew, I just knew that I would freak it to cancel it. And I already have enough things to watch and not enough time to watch them. However, this Hillsong mini series Docu series, I don't know what the word is, that is on Discovery plus rocked my world. By the way, this is the can I say this at church podcast. And I'm Seth, Thanks for downloading. I don't know why it rocked my world as much as it did, because none of it was new news to me. Well, pieces of it were but most of it was not. But for some reason, seeing it all edited together. And I just watched it over the course of three hours straight. Like I didn't take any breaks in between. and it sucked the life and the joy out of my faith for a little bit of time there. Like it pulled back a curtain that I had kind of stopped pretending was not there. I saw the wizard and he's still ugly. You know. Anyway, I'm rambling. I'm so glad that you're here. I brought back Jonathan Walton, because I just love the passion that he has for this topic. As well as the insight and I just have a blast every time I talk with him. It doesn't matter if it's via text via phone or on a podcast he's just a joy to talk with. And so here we go. We talk a bit a very small bit about that three part series about Hillsong about the church about things that are whitewashed tombs. Some sometimes that's me oftentimes, it's the church and so yeah, buckle in here we go here we go. How do we start these one of these days I'm gonna have you introduce yourself. You

Jonathan W 4:20

should play you should play me in with like inside out from my 2005 retreat for InterVarsity where we listened to that Hillsong song for six hours say what? What really listen to the same Hillsong the

Seth Price 4:38

everlasting your light will shine when all this Yeah, oh man

Jonathan W 4:41

and we were in it. We were so in it man. Like all about it. Well, hands raised in the car.

Seth Price 4:48

If it wasn't 1000 times. You didn't You didn't sing it. Exactly 1000 times that you failed at singing. You got to hit the right notes.

Jonathan W 4:57

It's it's good man hits all the things all over Like, Oh yeah,

Seth Price 5:05

yeah. All right, here we go. The Jonathan Walton. There we go. See, like, there's the M. See, it's powerful now. It's powerful. Now. I don't even know how many times this is now. I think it's for three, three or

Jonathan W 5:20

four years for your money. You're my favorite podcast, man.

Seth Price 5:23

Really? It's that's a lot. Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. I don't listen to me. So I appreciate you. Yeah,

Jonathan W 5:31

no, I only binge you. Listen to like 10 episodes like gotten upset. Amen. We go. You know.

Seth Price 5:40

That's, that's, that should be my wife shirt. Alright, got enough. Get Get out of my get out of it. Yeah. Anybody that's been married long enough. Hey, that's, I've had enough of you. You can go mow the grass. You can pretend to fix something. I don't care what you do. I just need you to move over there. Yes, please take one and take one of these kids with you. Just take Right. Right. I'll see you. I'll see you tonight. Yeah. So you and I were chatting. One note before we get there. What's new? It's been maybe a year? Maybe not a year close to them.

Jonathan W 6:20

Close to that since I've been on I think not since we last talked. But new stuff is all of our bathrooms. They all broke at the same time. So like,

Seth Price 6:33

we I was, this is why you like watching alone. i Yes,

Jonathan W 6:37

I was in one care seriously. I was in. I was in our primary bathroom. And I said, Hey, I'm gonna go downstairs and like wash the dishes because I want one shower. And you can get this done right. And then I hear it dripping. And I'm like, There's water coming through the ceiling. So that sucked. And basically when they put this bathroom and they didn't seal the shower, so the floor was rotting under What do you mean she'll the shower. So when you put it in, when you install a shower, there's a waterproof rubber thing that goes about six inches up on the entire board of the shower, just in case, just in case it okay, you didn't put that in. So between the ground the ground water gets water move that goes down, like that's what it does. And so it leaks through and then ran down through the ceiling. And so then we were like, alright, well, we can't use that shower. So let's go to the other bathroom because praise God, we have more than one shower. And we go in there and I have two daughters and a wife and their hair clogged to drain. So I go to unclog the drain. And the silly putty in the dirt like that was holding the pipe to the tub. dislodges. And so the water that was running through the tub, ran down through the ceiling into the dining room. And so yeah, after that got fixed, we realize, oh, like the pipes are all bad. So the joke that I have with a contractor that has been here for the last six months since the first flood that happened with Hurricane either, is the skin of our house is really pretty. And the bones are terrible Iraq, our house has osteoporosis. So that's new, but house looks great. But inside it, it vacuums up all of our money. Oh, and the other the other cool thing is that we finally published the emotional the activist course. So you can get it on Amazon and all that stuff. And it's not like a big I didn't write it to, to, you know, to go viral. And all that stuff I wrote to disciple people, and we have some groups going through it now. And it's just great man to work with activist to be talking with them to, to move towards being healthy and not burnout and not, you know, behold into all the things the pride the narcissism the hurry, like, so. Yeah, I'm excited

Seth Price 9:07

about that. Yeah, I don't know if that was intentional. I'm going to assume that it is because you're a professional public speaker. I mean, your name is on books. Right? And, and you're on a website. I've seen it. And you know, and so when you say the skin of our house is pretty, but the bones are rotten. I feel like that is the perfect segue for what we're actually going to talk about. Me

Jonathan W 9:35

avoiding it because it sucks. So we could go we could start for you.

Seth Price 9:40

Yeah, absolutely. Right. So you messaged me. Actually, a lot of people messaged me, but I didn't actually begin to watch the thing until you messaged me. Because I didn't feel like it. But then you're like, Yeah, you should watch this. So I watched it while I clean My basement, so I wasn't quite watching the screen. But close enough walking past the TV, you know, every 30 seconds. Yes. Yeah, because my basement looks similar to what's behind you. If you look over there, there's just a explosion of pink and toys and Barbies. And, you know. Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah. So I watched this documentary about Hillsong on Discovery plus who is not sponsoring the show? You're welcome discovering plus, and I'm just get free subscription. Yeah, I'm just gonna tell you, you get a free week. If you're listening, you can definitely get a free week. But you might want to put it on your calendar to cancel it. Because if not, you're losing a crappy Starbucks coffee, which is what happened to me. So neither here nor there. So for those that don't have discovery, plus or are afraid to cancel another subscription. What would you say this three part Docu series doc? I don't know what the word is for it. Yeah,

Jonathan W 11:02

I think Yeah. Docu series. Yeah, it's it, you know, at the Emmys would probably be a mini series, right, or a special special run or something. It will not be nominated. Let's be clear about that. But I would say if you want the most up to date, explanation of the rot that is in modern evangelicalism, then you should watch it. Like it is, it is the most up to date depiction of Matthew 18 to 23. So those

Seth Price 11:45

that don't read the Bible, sometimes asked me what is Matthew? What are those chapters like what paraphrase those ones so

Jonathan W 11:52

so God like Jesus is calling out so this the woe is like one to you, like that happens, resolving conflict, that did not happen to Hillsong. But it happens in in Matthew 18. You have Jesus interacting with the Pharisees and calling out religious leaders and their hypocrisy over and over again. And the thing that the two passages that stand out to me from 18 to 23, is Jesus says, It is better for you to have a millstone around your neck and for you to be thrown into the sea than to mislead one of my children. This one, and that, I mean, that should that should bring some solace for people who follow and sober for people who lead right. Then, you know, Jesus says you whitewashed tombs, like outside, you're very pretty, but inside, you're full of dead bones. Right? And that to me, like if we want to know what that looks like, in our context, then watch Hillsong Yeah, like Why watch that, you know, if you weren't around for Ted Haggard, and, you know, Jerry Falwell, Jr. and like, all of that stuff, but like to be clear about, like, the attractiveness, the multilayered attractiveness of it. And I mean, I live in New York City. I've been to Hillsong New York City. I know Lee, I new leaders at Hillsong, New York City, all that like I was, this is this is the environment that I saw. Yeah, but it's it's an exceptionally done. Progressive, well produced, like, depiction of like, what modern day hypocrisy, idolatry. And it looks like,

Seth Price 13:31

yeah, yeah. I also want to say for those listening that haven't watched it, this conversation is not a spoiler, because this is actual news. In an actual church body, it's not a novel. It's not a show that we're all going to binge together. So I'm going to say whatever I want about the series, and if you're like, Oh, I really didn't. I really wish I didn't know about pedophiles until episode two. Sorry, it's coming in episode three, like surprise, it's happening. So I just want to put that out there. I'm going to say whatever I want. So Jonathan, you say what, whatever you want because I don't think you can spoil the news. Also in related news, you know, last week another black individual happened to be killed up in you know, the northern part of United States also news I'm not spoiling that Russia is also still invading Ukraine. Will Smith is banned from the Oscars like none of these are spoilers. This is. These are these are news. So which episode so Episode One was mostly Carlin's Correct? No Episode One was about the foundation of Hillsong like the 60s of the church like the churches. Yeah. We Yeah.

Jonathan W 14:43

Yeah. The if people do not know what the seven mountains strategy is, like, Bethel, same street, Betsy DeVos, same street.

Seth Price 14:53

You mean like Education Secretary, Betsy DeVos?

Jonathan W 14:55

Oh, yeah, they're like, like, right wing donors like last 30 years like all their money, like all their money, there's like their books back there. Alright, so quick, quick history lesson. Yeah, but real fast. So basically, the anti intellectualism that is baked into modern evangelicalism started when the church quote unquote, that when really we're talking about like white Protestant, conservative churches start to lose, quote unquote, their foothold on the moral authority of America. RIGHT. Jimmy Carter? Yes, Jimmy Carter. And so, one of the stakeholders of modern evangelicalism and the Moral Majority that Jerry Falwell started was anti intellectualism, which is why you have Liberty University, which is why Jerry Falwell is more important, I would argue than Billy Graham, because Jerry Falwell built a school and planted churches, right? We can pretend like at least, pursues academic academia in that way. Jerry Falwell literally said, I'm going to buy a library, put it in my school, so we can pretend and then put notes in books that you're supposed to read and notes and books that you weren't? Like, that's literally what he said. I have four biographies of Jerry Falwell back there. These are his words, not mine.

Seth Price 16:23

And just a quick timeout, I'm an alumni, I can attest that this is correct. I went to liberty for those that don't know that for some reason. So yes. All right. Time back.

Jonathan W 16:33

Yeah. And so the DeVos family is part of that, that white evangelical milieu from the 1920s to the 1960s that amassed an enormous amount of wealth, and then bankrolled the TV stations, churches, universities, publishing companies that now dominate Christian discourse in the United States. So Maytag, that dude, right, so no code that CEO, JC Penney, that CEO, the CEO of Time Magazine hurts like all of those people were, quote, unquote, Christians, and would leverage their resources to build the institutions that we live with right now. Right. And so the DeVos family has I'm trying to remember how he got his money. I think it's it's like boats, but I don't remember. Go look that up. But like Google

Seth Price 17:27

carnival and cruises a Google, yeah.

Jonathan W 17:30

Basically, a billionaire. He's a, he's a billionaire, right. And so what they chose to put their money into was the education portion of the seven mountain strategy. So seven mountain strategy is to grab these sectors of society and take it over. So business, media, business, media, religion, politics, education, military, and something else. So you've got like, all these people in these places call it seven mountains strategy, so Redding, California, and the town of Jefferson or the state of Jefferson, like this small secession movement, Christian nationalist movement that's being birthed out of Bethel Church in Redding, California, like, is the embodiment of that seven mountain strategy in the US,

Seth Price 18:15

and that's still a history lesson this, or is that right now?

Jonathan W 18:19

Well, it's connected to right now. Okay, because Hillsong is the seventh mount of strategy from Australia, coming to America. Bethel is a seven mountain strategy that is purely American. Yeah. And the DeVos family has bankrolled that, which is how Betsy DeVos ended up in the Department of Education.

Seth Price 18:38

Yeah. So seven mountain strategy. How does that relate to the six C's that they're discussing in episode one, which is that Hillsong is going to be a church, a concert. And then he says musics, he gives a caveat just for alliteration. He says, we'll call it CDs, which is funny because my kids don't know what a CD is. It's going to be a college. It's going to produce cinema and music videos and that type of stuff and other things. And then it's going to like lead conferences. How is that's only six. So like, how do those two kind of conflict together?

Jonathan W 19:11

So what he's trying to do, and you see this in the in how it's incorporated, it's incorporated as an LLC, not as a not as a church or nonprofit. And so what they decided to do is they're going to focus on three of the mountains, one of them being media, right, the other one being churches. And the last one didn't work itself out until today, when you had Trump and then Brian Houston, him ending up in the White House, which is politics, right? And so the execution of it was let's try to dominate, like Christian culture through entertaining people every week. So new songs, our songs, publishing, licensing radio, like we will blast it out over and over and over again and we will tap so Hebrides and tap influencers this is like you know, before social media like they had Darlene check like this child star that was trusted. So you start to get people to come to church for an experience as opposed to coming to coming to church to meet people and meet Jesus. Right? Because experiences are powerful, right? And you know, it was a big deal in New York City when people were like, if I go to church, I can see Justin Bieber, I go to church, I can see Kevin Durant, I go to church, there's seven, there's seven services, because there's so many people, what am I missing? Right? You we were supposed to be going to see Jesus, but we're actually lined up like, we're going to get a Cronus right, like the croissant Dona when that was happening. And so they mastered they mastered that. The marketing of it. And so I think in episode one, would you what you really get is a picture of how Christianity quoting you know, air quotes and capitalism work together. But I mean, supercharged in ways that it was even hard for me to fathom.

Seth Price 21:05

Yeah, the part that made me pause, rewind and come back and like, sit down on the couch room and be like, Wait, what did she say? There was a student that went out there, I feel like she's like, from Maryland, or like, somewhere around here like East Coast. And they have her like, sign an NDA. And like she was used to her church being like, we will take care of you. We have you this is a safe place. She had like some veterans scholarship. And then he'll sounds like, yeah, that's our money. But also, here's an NDA. Yep. I, I have not been in enough parts of any form of ministry to know why a church would even require an NDA, of someone that they're teaching. I can maybe see it be someone that's an employee, you know, due to like counseling, I even then, I mean, I worked for a bank, we don't have an NDA, you know, what I mean, we have a non compete when you quit, like, you're not gonna, like, take people with you. But I don't have an NDA.

Jonathan W 22:07

Right. And I mean, I work for a large evangelical organization, and when the NDAs come out, that's when you need to leave. Like, let's just be clear about, you know, like, if that's part of the box of things, like, maybe, maybe not where you want to be, you know, what I mean? Yeah. And that, that something that I, that's fascinating to me is how organizations exist to protect themselves. And that I mean, you know, and that, when, when she said, I never saw the money, right, and like they, the the constant volunteering the invitation to give more like, the way to engage the way to belong is to work, right? Like, all of those things coming together. And then the dismissal of people when they were done, or couldn't perform more asked for more, sign the NDA, we're gonna we're gonna move on and yeah, like that. Yeah. And to sit in to associate Hillsong, or you're a person moving on from you as like, the cloud over the Israelites moving on, and that that left out in this? Yeah, is that that's the caustic, toxic thing, because she stops and says, like, I need a minute. Yeah, because she names it. And then I think she's reminded of like, this was my life, you know?

Seth Price 23:28

And so, yeah, for some reason, when you when you said, when, when there's an NDA, you need to like leave. All I can, in the back of my mind, probably because we were talking about liberty, in brief a minute ago, is just keep thinking in da and the Liberty way and making it like a rhyme, like music. Which, Liberty is not Hillsong. But

Jonathan W 23:51

to have a slew of NDAs, though, so

Seth Price 23:54

yeah, just NBA in the NBA and the Liberty way, which can't be the episode title, which is awful. Because it's fantastic. Different different episode. Um, which, so first episode is that and I could ask more questions about that second episode, was the one that surprised me the lease, which is like the idealization of our ministers, and then being like, hey, Beaver, you have the yummy, yum. Will you come and sing with me? And take pictures on the beach with me? Because you're bringing your people? Yes. Do you? Do you think that always happens? Be shot foi, be it any other charismatic minister. It doesn't really seem to matter what the time period is, like, I'm sure if I did more research, like I would find people in the 1700s like that. And in the 1800s like that, probably not as easily mass produced because there's no internet but if there was, is that ability to do that is that inherent of faith as a whole or is it something that is more tied to like a more charismatic version of faith because it's so much more emotional? Because like as a Baptist in the background, like it puts your hands down, we don't even stand for the second song sit down. We don't stand sit. You know?

Jonathan W 25:17

I, I think I think the second the second one is, is the least surprising but the most important, right? And I say that because this is like this is this is old right? So John three, when so gospel John Chapter Three that this happens in Acts I think nine but also happens in John's three where the disciples of different people gather together and say, Hey, man, hey, hey, you're really popular. But then do it's more proper than you like, we gotta we gotta we gotta get our shit together. Like, like, Jesus is baptized more people than you. Can you like, get on it right now? Like, because I'm following you. And I'm down. But like, I don't I don't have we enroll in his deepest him. So like, right? And then and then this is the moment. And I think there's this moment where John says, like, I can only receive I can only give what I received. Right? And so he actually, you know, stands against the, the, the will of the willingness of the people to prop them up. Right. And so we see that also where it's like, when Paul's people and Peter's people and a Polish people like come together to Hey, hey, Paul. Hey, hey, hey, Peters over there. Like he's throwing his jacket out at people to get healed. Like, what are you doing? Like, we got to step our game up, you know? And

Seth Price 26:41

Jacob any hint? Is that with that, as you're digging it?

Jonathan W 26:44

Well, Benny Hinn got it from Peter Peters actually worked. I don't know what was it his jacket, maybe had snacks, I don't know, bullets. Like the reality that like, I think we as people desire in to like Israel to have a cake, like we just want a king want to put somebody there. And it takes I think it takes a special kind of person to reject it. You know, like to resist a divination of yourself because you have an audience and because you have charisma, and all that stuff, like I remember a personal story. I was that I was in the city, I was leading students. And the only space big enough at this hotel was the lobby for us to meet in each morning. And I would be with I would study scripture, I give a quick excitation. And then we will go out and feed the homeless. We did this every day, for like, eight weeks. So the staff are watching me over and over again, do this. And finally, one of the women says to me, she goes, I'm so glad that you don't need a colt. I'm so glad. She said because I would. I would do anything that you said. That gap. She was like, I'm so glad. And I just looked at her and I was like, shit, man, like, I need to like I'm glad I'm normally to call. But, but like, I think there's something about the the what's the word? The not toxic. The what's the sort of fancy word for attraction? The like,

Seth Price 28:28

a fancy word for attraction. Yeah. Sounds good. Yeah. Yeah. Like but like the gravity like the magnet. Yeah. Like, like, yeah, like, like, when I think of attraction. Like I for some reason, think of black holes. Like, I can't not fall into this. Like I got to close and nominate now I'm not I'm not getting

Jonathan W 28:49

it is like a vacuum. Right? Like that, to me is like, because man like that. I don't even know how like that episode. I'm from Virginia, Mike Collins, from like, I know people who knew him at his church in Virginia Beach. That came to I've met in New York. And it is it's dangerous like when Jesus goes to the desert and is tempted with the whole world. Right? Like, can't like are we willing to like say no. And the end like and Carlin's was and I mean, you know, I think it was fascinating that they got the woman to I mean, as a spoiler if you won't want but like they got the woman to like, share the text and play the videos and yeah, all that. Yes. Like

Seth Price 29:43

when she popped on I lit it was like, oh, no, like I paused it from I was like, I don't I don't, because you could just see on her face. Hurts not the word like, like like, you know, yes, she lives Like, so when I buried my dad a few years ago, she looked like that. Not like my dad. But like people sitting there broken in a way that you're like, I don't care what you say, like, Thank you for coming. You shut your mouth like I don't. I'll tell you about my dad. But that's this is hollow, like it's nine. This is just a story and it was painful. And I'm not here to tell you that there's no good news there. Like it's the opposite of good news. When I saw her pop on, I was like, oh, no, like, I don't. I read it. I saw it. I read the Instagram post. Yeah, yeah. What? So how do you think that pastors that become that are because they're willing to volunteer to lead a thing when others are not willing to volunteer? Like, they're like, send me and then they end up liking it?

Jonathan W 31:05

No, no, no, because I'm because I'm in that boat, right? Like, I, I resist that boat as best as I can. And I'm constantly asking myself, am Is this about me? Or is this about Jesus? Like, is this about what I say? It's about, you know?

Seth Price 31:24

Think about how good your bathroom could be. If you would just ask people for their money. That's serious, right? Like it wouldn't even

Jonathan W 31:32

write? It is, I think, okay, how do I want to say this? You know, in, in the vernacular of how I grew up, it'd be like, when you start to think your shit don't stink. When you start to think like, when you start to believe, a high, like, when you start when you start to actually do that it is a dangerous place to be in, because you will always have someone gassing you up, you know, because they get in meshed with you, right? And then it's, you know, if anybody ever has ever watched scandal, or any of these shows, where like, the person riding the coattails of the person is more passionate than the person themselves. Almost, it's like, they you know, in House of Cards, it was like Jake stamper, right, like the person that's like, I'm riding with them, and there's no, I'm gonna do everything I can to make sure they succeed. Because if they succeed, I succeed. This is a measurement thing. But if the leader starts to believe that about themselves like I'm grateful for Priscilla, I'm grateful for you. I'm grateful for side Sue's like people in my life that reminds me like, I'm a human being, you know, like, I'm, I'm, I'm a normal person with like, bathroom problems, you know? Kids, like literally, I have kids that like, you know, I've got a potty over here that I hope it's cleaned out. But my dog might have eaten stuff that was in there. Like, this is like this life stuff, right?

Seth Price 33:03

Like, you need a new dollar. You need a new dog. If the dog is willing to do that. You need a new dog.

Jonathan W 33:09

Nobody has just committed to the weirdest stuff. But but but that's what I mean. Right? Like, if I if I tell myself, I'm more than what I am, I'm close enough to people to remind me that I'm just I'm just Jonathan. Yeah, I'm just. Yeah, so yeah.

Seth Price 33:22

So how does a church resist celebrity? Because like, So say, for instance, like out here in Charlottesville, Riley like The Rock owns a house, if he shows up at a church on Sunday. It's a thing. And that's the cool church now, like he showed up at church of the church, church church. I don't know if he even I bet what doesn't matter. Like how does a church resist the celebrity?

Jonathan W 33:51

Like it's okay, I hate that this because it's not it's, I remember a conversation with a former mentor of mine, he drew a diamond on a napkin and he said, There's easy and hard and they're simple and complicated. And very few things are hard and complicated. Right? It is not hard to in James's says have no respecter of persons. It's not hard, it's complicated. You have to figure out how you're going to do it. That's not hard. Right? Like and what we do like it like we really have to take seriously the things that Jesus says like oh, it really it's the book of James I think it's the most helpful there where it's just like, hey, the only religion that is faultless and blameless is like to serve the poor can we like what what if there was no translation issue there? There's no like Hebrew or Greek Latin neat thing that we have to go back. What is that? Just what is it? That's just what it is like that that's that's the truth. You know, what if we said like, Faith without works is dead? Oh, I have have to live these things out. Like, you know, like, Yeah, but if we did that, and I and I think it's but I think it's really hard because we want we want to be attached to somebody who will who will stamp us is good and special. Yeah.

Seth Price 35:14

Yeah, I have never listened to a message from Hillsong. I listen to a lot of the music, which I'm still kind of torn with because like, the music is written in a way that like, out, the kids will sing it. And when my kids are singing in the car, I don't change the channel. It really doesn't matter what the song is, by the way, like, it doesn't matter where it is. I just like listen to them sing off key, it makes me laugh, right? Is the message of a church like Hillsong more closely aligned to a prosperity type of gospel? Or something? Because I've never listened to him speak? Oh, yeah,

Jonathan W 35:53

no worries. Here's here's what I mean. I remember listening to hell. So I my brother, so Nathan, awesome pass. He's now the pastor and Eastern fellowship in Richmond. Really great place to worship. He, he did his dissertation on the prosperity gospel, like that was his thing. Because of its just toxicity in my own family, and like how that's broken relationships, and, you know, sow a seed, all that BS, right? And so what, what Hillsong does, and churches like it, because if I'm in Sudan, prosperity, gospel, not gonna work. I'm in a desert, right? Like, I'm in a war torn country. I'm thinking about South Sudan, the child soldiers that I talked with the the exploited people like prosperity gospel is not going to work, right. But if I'm in Lagos, where there's a little bit of money, a little bit of resources, some corruption, like, it works, right, because you got this slice of people who are economically disadvantaged, who can be in relationship with people who are recently advantaged, and then they think, okay, I can be like them one day, right? And so you need that slice of people. And if you're in an urban setting, with people who are quote, unquote, dreaming, and like all these different things, like and we idolize like productivity, like rise and grind, and like, you're surrounded by people who are quote, unquote, making it like all that stuff, you can create this environment, cobbled together some verses, like text jacking is what we call it. Like when we preach, I just like, grab these things here and sprinkle the Prayer of Jabez here and sprinkle a little bit of a little bit of Psalm 3139 here and, you know, enlarge my territory here, Jesus, and then you get a sermon, and play some songs, you get to do believe in that and you have enough people who will do it. Like who actually quote unquote, succeed. You platform them and the treadmill runs, man.

Seth Price 37:48

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So as a business, how does Hillsong separate its worship music, and there's also like, Hillsong, young and free and Hillsong United. And I don't even know the difference between all those songs, like, I have no brands. Like I don't, what is it like the B team, the A team, the C team, and this is like,

Jonathan W 38:08

imagine Kpop, right? So if you ever, if you want to go down a rabbit hole going and listen to kpop

Seth Price 38:14

not doing Kpop not doing I'm afraid to because I like music, and a lot of people like it. And I'm probably the one that's wrong, but I just don't want to listen to it.

Jonathan W 38:23

Wrong, you're just, you're just not there yet. You know, you're on the treadmill, like, you'll get there eventually. Because your kids will grow up be teenagers, and like, BTS is coming for them butter all day. But what they learned, like there was a record executive, his name escapes my mind right now. But he was like, if I just start burning through these artists, I'll make a ton of money. And so that's what they do. Like, it's not just like one album a year. It's like multiple albums a year, like I mean, they are churning through artists, like in South Korea. And that is very similar thing to what Hillsong did with their B team and 18 and CT. Like, they just said, Oh, this works. Let's turn the crank, let's, we'll start the because everything's connected, right, those C's, you said, let's get the conferences going, we'll have that stream of revenue, that will get people singing the songs, then we'll send those people home and then we'll start a worship school because we don't have that degree yet. And we haven't academized that yet. And people don't come learn from us. So then we'll get those people to write their songs for free acts. They're gonna pay us to write those songs, then we're going to own those songs. And then they're going to sing in our group so we're gonna make all the money and they're not gonna make any Yeah,

Seth Price 39:33

yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so how is that any different from what like passion does? Or Bethel? Okay,

Jonathan W 39:40

not Yes, same. So can I just take a job follow?

Seth Price 39:43

Yeah, can I just take passion out? I can I just take the word Hillsong out and just put in passion or could I take out it? How do you say her name Teja the girl that sings ocean that sings wonderful. I would listen to her singing Oh, yeah. Like she has a private release at Nalley are her and David Crowder, just plug and play. Like, is it the same kind of mentality?

Jonathan W 40:05

I don't. So here's, here's where I think there's gradients, right. So like, like, I'm friends with Andy Mineo. Right. I know, like, some performing performance artists, right. And it is. The swing is constant for folks like that, you know, I named Dr. Andy like, put

Seth Price 40:26

him out there. But like, I love ending, right. But the tension is real. I don't know, Andy, but I love his music. Yeah, of course. Right?

Jonathan W 40:34

I hate right. And so, like, the tension is real. All right, like one of my friends Chivo just dropped his last album. And like, I watched him, like, go back and forth with like, the industry and like how how things work, right? I think the what we can't, what we what we can plug and play is the image. I don't think we can plug and play the individual. Right. So the image that's projected, particularly when you just connect the dots, like oh, like, this person is with Capitol Records and that person like it's owned by this person, like, you know, like the money trail, right? Like if I go to Bible gateway, I'm giving Rupert Murdoch money. That's just that's, uh, yeah,

Seth Price 41:17

I didn't know that. Yeah. Well, six

Jonathan W 41:19

70% of Christian media in the United States is owned by Rupert Murdoch. Zondervan. Like really bad. Yeah. Zondervan murder Thomas Nelson. Yeah. Right. So, yeah, they, they make they they make money off our prayer requests. Did you know that? How we mind they mind people's prayer requests and Book Notes to sell ads on Bible gateway.com.

Seth Price 41:45

So wait, wait, wait. So I don't go to Bible gateway often. So you can submit a prayer request at Bible.

Jonathan W 41:52

You can like make comments in your Bible. You have notes in your Bible. You can have prayer requests you can do you could share like Bible images. Like it's a whole net.

Seth Price 42:01

Are you talking about the Bible app?

Jonathan W 42:03

No, that's you Bible that's different. Oh, well as you version are about, depending on which Olive Branch like there's different ones. But yeah, Bible gateway. Definitely a machine. Yeah, for sure. Right. Anyway,

Seth Price 42:16

there's an article, the most mad about that.

Jonathan W 42:20

So so the KTF team, right, the keeping the faith team like the sub sect, we run from the anthology that we published that you were featured in, right? Like, we all read that ever, like, like, really like, and then it made sense, because I went to Bible gateway to look at something. And then the ad tracked me and I was like, Oh, I kept deaf. I was like, really? And it was the let's go Brandon T shirt. Not About That light. But that was where it started. And then it followed me across. And I was like, Oh, well, that's interesting.

Seth Price 42:56

So you maybe you know, maybe you don't know. So my wife and I and family. We were on vacation. We went to Dollywood. Yes Two weeks ago, and is great and bought that vacation in 2019. And then because of COVID we just kept having to kick the can because they wouldn't give him money back. So we've had this cabin reserved. Two years it was fun now, till the wildfires made us evacuate a day and a half early because literally the mountain was on fire that we were sleeping on. vacuolated at 130 in the morning, grab your crap put it in the car who's got the dogs get to we have the anxiety medicine for the kid because that we got we can't forget everything else will go by and if we need it, you know that'll happened. Yeah, trees down, you know, at fire trucks coming up the mountains. Great. Good deal. First time that ever happened to me. That was fun. I've evacuated for tornadoes and hurricanes. I've never done that. So we did it together. I just need a tsunami I think. And I think I have them all. So in in C Reville. There are in Pigeon Forge or whatever. There was a shirt that sells you know, the shirts that the $10 shirts is all the things and it is let's go Brandon everywhere. Like like next to I love Dolly. There's a let's go Brandon shirt, Trump 2024. Don't blame me. I didn't vote for whatever. Yeah. Which is just crazy to me. But the funny part is, and this has nothing to do with Hillsong. But your comment made me think of it. There was a kid maybe my middle child's age around 910. And front display when you walk in which Thank you see Reville there's one that says f Joe Biden, but it doesn't say F it's just the whole sentence. Here we go. And then next to it is a let's go Brandon shirt. And the mom said you can't buy that one. But I'll let you buy the let's go Brandon shirt and I literally laughed out loud. Walked out of the store because I gotta I gotta look for my wife. And she's like, what I was like, they're the same damn thing. They mean the same thing. I don't even know why you're playing Like they don't, right? Yeah, yeah,

Jonathan W 45:03

I mean, so wrap it back around, right? Like capitalism is a crank that we will turn until it breaks, right? And so, like, you can literally buy a Bible that is not a Bible, but it holds your Glock, like it's a bible cover. But when you open it up, like it's your ammunition, and your, you know, your clip, or whatever, and the gun, and like that, like and Hillsong is in the same vein, if you listen to it is in episode three, I think, where they just start to break down the Empire like this, how many property they own, how many buildings, how much land they own, who's named this and like, how the cards like the expenses work, like tithing money, literally tied to like food and shoes and expensive bags, like it's just did start cranking and not like we do one song, let's do two songs. Let's get another group. Let's do another comment. Let's get 30 cities, right, like, you know, the one of the commentators like, explained it really, really well. Like, and it's in that practical step like it is not a nonprofit, it is not a church, it is incorporated as a limited liability corporation. Like that is is very clear. It they weren't you know, they weren't that wasn't hidden. You know, if you asked about it,

Seth Price 46:23

yeah. And what's cool that about that for, for people that live in the United States, so because they're not a nonprofit, they actually are not restricted by the Johnson Amendment. So they can say whatever they want about politics, and they can get as much money as they want, because of a court case when President Obama was there. So now corporations are people. So yes, yay. For for that.

Jonathan W 46:48

United. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Seth Price 47:01

Do you remember like last year, I had all those weird ad breaks, like he would just randomly be something, we're not doing that. Instead, I thought I'd do this, I need your help. If you're able to head on over to the website for the show, there are two things that you can do. One is you head over the website, you click the Patreon button or support button, I forget what I call it. And you jump in there, those people helped make the show a thing so that you can listen to it right now, to the easier one, you could just leave a rating and a review on the podcast app of choice that you currently use. Either one of those is fine. But I would love it if you would do either one, specifically the rating and reviewing it's an exponential thing, that the algorithms pick it up. And that's just math was just compounding on top of itself. Anyway, all that to say, that was it. That was the ad break. Now we're gonna get back into it. People should watch the show. I have a couple more questions, though. Yeah, it's worth the $5. Even if you hypothetically forget. Yeah. And then and then email, Jonathan, because in a minute, we're going to make sure we get some contact information. And he will tell you what else to watch on Discovery plus, because it sounds like you only know what's there. Because you also may have forgotten to cancel is this is this.

Jonathan W 48:22

I cancelled it. But friend that window was open for a long time. So I just kept clicking through things as I type lots of emails. So discovery plus is If it didn't cost money, I would I would have it

Seth Price 48:37

is that what I heard you say is it is good enough that I don't value any of my money to go to it. But while it's free, love it. Take it. It's basically to be TV is what it is. It's or Pluto TV. Yeah, so after the documentary has come out, compounded with Carlins compounded with Brian Houston's father and the raping a little boys. And I have to assume little girls who knows. I have no idea but it's it takes a special kind of human to do that kind of stuff.

Jonathan W 49:14

Yeah, the average the average victim number for a man uncaught is like 53. So listening to his sermons at the end, the comments he was making revolting,

Seth Price 49:29

revolting. Look at those young men in the back looking good looking sharp and you young man, you look strong. I'll bet you are strong, supple hands. Look at his hands and that skin. I mean, and that sounds cringy if you're listening every wants to show I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not that far away from probably being close to verbatim from this man's sermon. Sermon. Yeah. So the the This all comes out. And then, like, what last week, maybe we can have go. A lot of these churches I have to assume across the globe, but maybe not are basically like, Yeah, I'm not part of Hillsong anymore, like and Easter's the day. Sorry, you can still come to church, but we're not that anymore. Yeah. And so there is a question posed in the in the series and I wrote it down. And I don't know who said it. At the end, I feel like it was a young lady, a young lady, she looked to be in her 60s, some kind of a professor and they stopped showing names in the third episode. And so I couldn't keep track because it wasn't really reading the screen. She says what everyone watching this should be watching for is that if Hillsong no longer exists as Hillsong it will still exist as something else. Absolutely. What is this something else? Like because we should be looking for it?

Jonathan W 50:51

Okay, okay, so, man, how do I explain this? I wanna, I want to be direct and concise so that people don't get lost in the sauce of things. Okay, if you show up at a church and they are fundamentally concerned with the production value of okay, let me let me like, think about an image, okay. Let's think about the solar system. Like they're different planets, right? And like, you know, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune. Not Pluto anymore, right? Like, you, you may have all these things, or you may have some of them. But like, you're not far off, like, you should be looking for the other things. Right. And so I think that we have to start asking ourselves, like, what a Church celebrates. So if a Church celebrates, I'm sorry, who a Church celebrates, will be an indicator of what the church prioritizes right? I live in New York City. And when Hillsong was before Hillsong, there was another church that was known as the models Church. The actors church, so we knew that quote, unquote, the pretty people went,

Seth Price 52:32

Oh, you mean there's a character like the like Fifth Avenue? That's where they go the runway models. That's where they got you got your back.

Jonathan W 52:39

Okay. Right. And so the expectation was like, John, John, you can't just show up looking like that. Right? Because that the chaplain for the Jets goes to this but

Seth Price 52:48

doesn't look like Gucci. You can get in on coach, I need you to get coochie Yeah, and

Jonathan W 52:54

I need I need to allocate in my budget, like 25 to 50 bucks to eat brunch after which every Sunday, like we're gonna do this every like, there's a there's a certain box, right? And then there's like, the academics church, right? Like, you know, I'll say that, because everybody knows that New York City is Tim Keller's church, Redeemer, right. Like, there's these brands of churches. And so when, if a church is concerned about and celebrates people who fit a certain aesthetic than I think that's a Mercury, you know, that's a Mercury. It looks like something is there, right? And then I think the next thing from that is like, not just who who is prioritized and celebrated, but like, you know, then the story that the Church tells about itself, right? If a, if a church is marketing itself, like a product like this is the best thing like we are different from, right, like we're trying to distinguish ourselves from other features, not not trying to encourage the body or like, concerned about you coming concerned about you giving like there's a way to do that in a way that is open handed, and kingdom minded. And there's a way to do that, where like, I'm really concerned about meeting our budget and my church growing and like this goal, right? And that this requires you building relationships with people they're and actually putting some work in, but like, that's a Venus. Right? Like, I've had conversations with pastors and leaders, who, you know, we get into the conversation and they're like, Yeah, our church, like I literally had a conversation. They said, our church is not a mission. We're a church. We're not going to we're not going to feed the homeless, we're not going to do that. We don't and I said, Well, what do you want to do with all this space? Well, the space is for us, spaces, not for the community. And I was like, Thank you for being clear. You know what I'm saying? Because I want people to know what to expect when they come in. So like a Mercury is who you prioritize Venus is like what the church market itself as and what like tells a story about itself. And I think Earth is like watching what the people do, like if people are supervising each other. Mm. I like like the Christian like in any ha like emotional the activist to talk about like, these are colonized like congregants, right so you turn everyone into an overseer. And so then everyone is trying to perform as best as possible. So you've got the whitewashed tombs like training people to become whitewashed tombs to become inauthentic to start to perform Christianity and stuff like that. And then I think the last piece is, so that's Earth, right? Like the people in the church, then you got Mars, and these are the outliers. Right? Who does the church push away? Yeah. Who are they not willing to platform? Who are the passers that like get mentioned that get thrown under the bus, right? It's like, oh, well, we're not like that person or that person. Right? And then I think when you hit the asteroid belt, these are like, the red flags where you're like, Oh, I've heard about abuse, and they didn't do anything about or I've heard about, like, the money and like, how things are being spent. Like, I think there's a there's a point where we realize like, this is not good, but then we stay anyway, because we we bought into Mercury, Venus and Earth. Like we like the people.

Seth Price 56:09

Yeah, yeah. And I like this space. That's my opinion. Like, yeah, like the

Jonathan W 56:13

music like I like what's hap, like you we bought into the aesthetic? And once we crossed the asteroid belt, like we're in like, we'll take the gas giants. Like the past was not that bad, right? Like it can't be that because we're already in meshed. Like being part of the group we like to be seen. And then I think, you know, we're lost but like, that's something to look for. When when churches look more like, you know, your best brunch spot or your best Walmart or like when it when it starts to look like a product and a production. Like I think that's a that's a problem put in this in our in our culture today. Yeah, maybe something else later, but like,

Seth Price 56:50

yeah, in the way that you describe that with the solar system. I like, however, when you describe were churches in that asteroid belt that feels like most congregations? Oh, yeah. Like, and I don't mean, any specific one. Like, it feels like the arguments that the Methodist keep having about a lot of things. And the Mennonites keep having about a lot of things. And the Lutheran and Southern Baptist and we're just gonna sweep this sexual stuff under the rug, because we really like being here in Dallas. And we really also like this money, like, that feels like pretty much everything that you read on a daily basis when you're like, Oh, we did Come on y'all. Why are we doing this again? Feels

Jonathan W 57:35

like said, like, I I'll be straight up, right. Like, I'm in a church. I'm in a church plant. And I've told the pastor this, so like, it's fine. Like me, me and Priscilla were like, look, you know, if we turn into that, we will leave. Like, we're just, I'm just not interested. And I think that's what we have to be willing to do. It's just it's just like anything, right? Like, you know, I don't like like that the clothes that I can afford for my kids when I have to buy new ones or Old Navy. I know what Old Navy does in Sri Lanka. I know what they do in Cambodia, right? Like, I do not buy like not fairtrade coffee or a Fairtrade sugar or direct trade chocolate like I like because I can't, I can't I can't bring myself to do it. Right. But if you you move those things more intimate. Right where it's like, oh, like, Man, this dude hit his wife. Hmm. I really like him. Like, he'll be alright. Like, I don't have to bring that up with like leadership or stuff like was keep it quiet. Yeah. You know, like, oh, like, it seems like that. You're hanging out a lot. Okay, he looked at her in this weird way. But like, it's fine. I'll need to follow up like it's cool. Yeah. You know, like, we'll start to like, make those excuses. Like, I think we just run him into C

Seth Price 59:06

or like that story of the young lady with Carlin's like the word that she put in there was I thought it was weird that he put my phone number in his notes tab. Right, but it's probably fine. It's our It's okay. Because he was cool. He seemed nice. You know, right.

Jonathan W 59:21

Yeah. Great. And I Yeah, and I don't know, man, like, the thing that I think about now it passes like, I'm 36 years old, like, um, you know, I'm a congregant. Like, I want to follow people too. You know what I mean? And I think if you don't want to be like your pastor, you shouldn't be at the church. Like, I'm not saying they don't preach good sermons like awesome, but if you if you look at them and you're like, I don't want to be like them. Right? Like and I'm not talking about like dressing like them or doing that but like, getting to know the people and the and the, the leaders that are Interview in such a way that you can say like, yeah, like, I want to be like them because they want to be like Jesus and that requires investment and knowledge and all those things that you cannot be a consumer. Right. And that's what Hillsong is as base their, their entire thing on is that like we can create, consume consumer based Christianity and people will buy it. And he did. Yeah, yeah, I never bought an album but

Seth Price 1:00:25

ya know, I have Spotify. So I've listened to the album's so I'm some money is gone to them through through me streaming. And some of that is and so this is a question. So I lead worship in our church or I'm one of the people that sing songs in our church. I do not Yeah, I'm not paid. I'm not the worship leader, nor do I want to be. I just genuinely enjoy doing it. But I'll also just like play a Taylor Swift song with the kids like, I just enjoy singing, having a good time. I like hitting notes that my younger child children can't do and then being like, come on, you can hit it. I need you to open your mouth like you just loosen it up. But why are you so just it's okay

Jonathan W 1:01:07

to lean your head forward. Like don't go like this.

Seth Price 1:01:10

Yeah, you're hurting yourself. There's no no reason for that. Yeah. I'm Ken. So how I want to say this and keep it private. I know that people will listen to this and be like, I can't support any of this, like cancel Procter and Gamble, cancel Nickelodeon. Cancel, Will Smith, cancel Hillsong I can't do this. So can churches still? Should they feel guilty about that, you know, I need to CCL rights to this Hillsong song today because I don't really like Chris Tomlin either. So I gotta pick one of these songs. And they write all of the songs that people want to sing currently in church. Can we still do these and feel good about it? Should we just be like, No, I'm just gonna page CX VI, we're just going to redo all the hymns. And that's all that we're doing.

Jonathan W 1:02:02

Alright, so this is gonna be a long answer. But I'm gonna start off with the thing my wife said, Because Priscilla is great. And she someone asked her a question about like, like, do all things work together, like everything works out. And she goes, you know, a great leader, like once said, like, God is the grand Weaver. And like, he is like we and we are yet just in his tapestry. And like, God is doing these amazing things. And the person walked away. It was like, yeah, yeah, like, I'm part of what God is doing. Right? She did not say, Ravi Zacharias said that. In the midst of like raping and abusing people. She didn't say that. She's, she pointed to God, because it's true. That got it without giving him any praise without giving Ravi Zacharias a praise. And that's what I think we have to do, just on a practical level, is like, we are so used to exhorting and giving credit to people that don't deserve it. And I was when I went on sabbatical in 2019. Because I mean, I'm a messed up, I've made mistakes, like, I've one of the worst things that I modeled was like overworking. Like we would have interns and they, I would be up with them all hours of the night. And like doing like it model, it didn't model a sustainable life for an adult for them at all right. And as I was praying, I was talking with God, and I was like God, like, I feel like, because I can literally look at people that I've mentored and see their marriages and see how I could have influenced them in a helpful way. And, and I was like, God, like, is anything that I did? Fruit like worth it at all to you? Like, how can any of this work? And then he goes, Jonathan, I am gracious. That is why there's any fruit from what you do. I am gracious. And that's where I think like, God is gracious and wonderful and like we get to play a part. But like Hillsong, all they do is write songs. They write songs. And just like, you know, we could say George Whitfield was a slave owner. Jonathan Edwards was a rapist and a slave owner. Folks like Thomas steps like all these people, right, like I think we have to be able to hold intention, the terrible, atrocious things that people do and what they've actually put into the world. And so I, I don't there isn't a story about this. But I imagine that Jesus ate and drank and had things where exploitation tainted. What were like, there was just a problem. Like, I imagine if somebody brought him food, somewhere along that supply chain of Jesus getting that bread that he broke, or that little boy and his two fish or whatever, like, there was something that happened, that was messed up. And he didn't say like, no, like, I'm not going to be a part of this, you know what I mean? But he broke bread and said, Thank you. Right? And I'm not saying we dismiss everything, and like, you know, say all it's all fine, because all the money is messed up, right? It's not what I'm saying. But what I am saying is, like, if we think that not singing, this song is gonna make us more righteous than we've lost already. Yeah, because every song is tainted by is written by a human being that was flawed, right. And so I will say, though, for a worship leader, and we've had conversations like this with the prayer meetings that we've led, is like, if you are performing, not worshiping don't sing the song. So like, Courtney Wong, our teaches how to pray curriculum, we worked on that for 10 years, that the scriptures we have the songs we use, because they were designed to lead you into worship, not not elation, were designed to you know, like, the goal was not to have like the smoke come in at the right moment. And everybody's get to this euphoric spot. The goal was fluid experience. God, yeah, you know, and so I think that is actually the line where it's like, worship or performance, like if you if this song, you worship to, like, sing the song, you know, but if you're performing it to meet this need that the eighth graders have, and you want to keep them in your church, and like all that stuff, they're like, no, like, you we already lost. Yeah. Yeah. But the like I, you know, particularly, like doing like the work that I've done around like sex trafficking, labor, slavery and stuff like that, like the United States, the list of all this suspected, exploitative exploited goods that come into the United States. So loophole in our judicial code that says, if we can't prove it, then it can come in. But the Department of Labor and Statistics, like actually tracks all of it. There's a map they release every year, every product. And if we said that we would just not take it, we could stop slavery today. Yeah, in India, we could do that. But we're not going to do it. Yeah, you know, yeah. So all that to say, I think we should be grateful. And then if it leads it worship leads, which leads us into worship to do it. But if we're performing to keep people there, and like pleasing audiences, we need to stop. And that's a bigger problem,

Seth Price 1:07:44

except for Oceans, stop singing oceans, you should

Jonathan W 1:07:47

not punish any drummer to play that song. Because it's, I play like percussion, right? So it's a really hard, terrible song. There's so many places where you could just look terrible see performance, right? Like, it's because you have to do it the way it's done on the album, because everybody wants you to do it the way it's done on the album. Yeah. Because they want you to like, except with other people,

Seth Price 1:08:13

with other people.

Jonathan W 1:08:17

I told I literally said to so what I said like, if I go to a church, and it's really just a podcast with other people, that's not church. Like we're going like we're experiencing everything like by ourselves, like we would take our coffee and food and we're kind of you know, but it's just a live podcast with the pastor right there. And then we just go home. You know, so anyway, yeah, it's not about that

Seth Price 1:08:41

life so what last last question? What was your favorite episode of this miniseries?

Jonathan W 1:08:58

Oh, man. Whenever the sneakers and preachers do

Seth Price 1:09:02

Ben Ben Kirby's

Jonathan W 1:09:05

like, cuz because he I think like when he said, Collins call me and I just gave him my name. Yeah,

Seth Price 1:09:16

yeah, my name is Ben. Oh, no.

Jonathan W 1:09:19

No, didn't you fell for it? You know? But I think that that moment right there epitomizes for me like just just the power of it man. That the dude would call you you have a commerce that you know that we believe the best about people he put certain folks get the benefit of the doubt like all that stuff like that, to me was like, oh, Earth you just you just got you just got put on earth and they're in it. You know what I mean? You were a spectator before but now you're on the planet and your drink it Yeah, no,

Seth Price 1:09:56

Ben Ben story is great. Cuz he's like I just think this is funny. And then hundreds of 1000s people were like, That's not funny. And I'm gonna tell my friends. Still not funny. Like, you can't stop looking at it. Like, I'm all the time looking at what he posts and be like, Why are we the way that we are? Like, come on? Yes. Like that's, I don't, even if I had the money, so I, I'm, I do well, and my wife and I, we do what we can to give away quite a bit of we try to be generous. But like, I still buy my like suits at the outlet mall when they're on sale, because I'm like, I don't need $1,000 suit. I would like to get five of them for 1000. And yes, it does not fit, right. I don't care. Because I mean, it's it's it's synthetic fibers. And most of the time I'm sitting down anyway, like I can't ever see a time that I feel like I need these $3,000 shoes and need them in my life and not as an investment to where I'm aware like all the time Oh rocket, I could see the case for you know, people buy and sell stocks. People do baseball cards, I could see the case where now I'm buying these Jordans. Because they're worth five grand. And I know they're gonna be worth seven. And I'm gonna sell them I can see a case for that.

Unknown 1:11:20

The two were like

Seth Price 1:11:24

his story's crazy. Yeah,

Jonathan W 1:11:25

yeah. Like to I mean, that's another rabbit hole. Like you're looking. I mean, you're looking at like a custom bookshelf behind me. Right? I

Seth Price 1:11:33

like it. I'm a little bit jealous about it. Actually. Listen, the ladder is what I'm feeling like I like

Jonathan W 1:11:37

yeah, we pay for that before the hurricane, right? But it's one of those things where like, I am this is a live thing for me. Because again, like this, this was close to home because I knew people in that church, you know, and and as a leader, I'm like, What am I susceptible to as I'm watching this? Right? But the I hope that as people watch it, you know, with your free free subscription a year later, yeah. is like, you know, have the outrage that you were talking about, like it like it makes no sense the sneakers and watches and shoes and stuff. But then like, flip it over and be like, Alright, so where is that for me? You know, like, where's that? You know, cuz we're all in the same economy. You know, I mean, so like, how to like how to break out of that is really is really a question that I'm trying to figure out. Because Priscilla said to me, she's like, Jonathan, you may not buy a shirt. She said, but your phone breaks. You're gonna get the new one. The next day she goes, if you can get out the house, same day, you will go buy that new phone. And she's like, she's like so John. Let's talk about that. And I'm like, Don't Don't get close to me. Don't get in.

Seth Price 1:12:58

Mind your business. I don't go through your makeup drawer. You mind your business, right? Yeah, it's true. You don't need Clinique you can get that equate version. I'm the same way that so I got a new phone recently and my wife was like, you're gonna get like the most recent one. I was like, yes. However, when I buy these, my last one was six years old. Like I use it until literally it goes software no longer updatable. So like when I can't do my banking on my phone because the software won't support it. Then I get a new phone because I'm like, Alright, now I have used it as much as I can. Because most of the pictures that I take are so far zoomed in. It's like my kid playing second base and I'm like in the bleachers. You can't even tell that it's my kid. I'm gonna tell you it's my kid but like you can't it's so far it's just grains of sand on screen. Yeah, so I have to ask you because this is what I do now and I like it so what is what is God what's happening man? You want me to just edit in the last one?

Jonathan W 1:14:04

No, no, I don't think I'm gonna cry this time. It's just you know, he's amazing man God today is just all all the in between and stuff that I wish I could catch. But like has slipped through my fingers to the point now that I'm like, trying to find where all the pieces fell. So that I can like start over because I think trying to catch Trying to catch a limitless God with like my two hands was like a fool to think that I could have done that, you know? But he's okay. But like, he's okay with me like now crouching down to pick up like what he was dropping before and give me more, you know, because he's He's generous like that I think God is three in one and one in three. And when I explained that to Maya, and she wasn't confused, but thought it was amazing that I would write a poem for her, that she could then connect back to her relationship with God. Like, I can do that with her because God does that for me. Like, he makes it simple. He helps me understand he helps me get it, I can trust him. And I can trust them. And God, today is not one who requires my my defense of him or her themselves, like I don't I don't have to fight for him. I could just talk about what I know. And that's, that is more than enough. Like. Yeah. But God is amazing. Like, it's amazing. And there is there is he the only thing that I'm certain that this entire world that he is there, that he is coming. And that all things will be made, right? And if I didn't believe that I'd be done. Judas myself, you know?

Seth Price 1:17:26

So, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what are the good bones that you want people to do as it relates to what you're doing in the world? Because you do a lot of things? Where do you want to put people,

Jonathan W 1:17:38

um, there's three things, three streams. Um, fortunately, it's been clarified. Because I had to take care of my kids and take care of myself and love my neighbor as well. Political discipleship and education, I think is going to be the thing that that doesn't hold our country together. But like, gives people the tools not to fall apart internally. And so what we're doing with KTF, press, like shake the dust on substack, I think is I feel really good about that stuff. And I wrote a poem, it's gonna come out on Friday. Well, when this drops it already be out. But, um, so KTF press.com, the anthology that we did, is, I think, it'll just be exceptionally helpful for 2022 and 2024. Because we're in the same, we're in the same cycle. So that's just KTF press.com. And then, for folks who, you know, want to want to go deeper and have conversations about this stuff regularly, like that's emotionally healthy. activist.com. Like, I'm working with multiple groups. And that's just life giving man to talk with activists and people who want to seek justice and talk about how we can do this for a lifetime, and not just a couple of weeks, like processing the anger, the pain and responding to Jesus and not your mama's fears, like, you know, like that network. Is is I love I love doing that. Because, you know, I was messed up for a long time. And fortunately, Jesus and my wife and people helped me you know, and so I love doing that work. So emotional, the activist.com for folks who are just trying to put this stuff together and move somewhere. And then all of the racial justice ethnic reconciliation stuff lives within a varsity for me now, so that's just, you know, go to Jonathan walton.com for that, but it's it's really interesting to me how these three streams work together in one, like one kind of universe, and it's only separate because of the law and politics in the United They say like literally like InterVarsity can't talk about politics unless we're like, right wing. So I have to separate the thing out to do it. Right.

Seth Price 1:20:10

Um, they're good with that. They're good with it. Yeah. Okay, cool.

Jonathan W 1:20:13

Totally fine, because it saves them the lawsuits and stuff.

Seth Price 1:20:17

No, I'm good with, hey, you know, cuz some people will write and then they want to say something else. And they're like, Yeah, but now you don't get to write for us anymore. Like, you got a reputation now, and we don't want to be associated with that.

Jonathan W 1:20:30

No, today, it's fine.

Seth Price 1:20:33

Well, it's up to Rupert Murdoch.

Jonathan W 1:20:36

You can edit this out for your patrons if you want but like money is,

Seth Price 1:20:43

yeah, I don't want to say, No, you don't say Leave your answer.

Jonathan W 1:20:47

Maybe you get this out. But listen, like what bothers me, and this is part of the Hillsong thing to is like, money is the thing that talks. So like, if I work for a Christian organization, and I'm fully funded, there are certain things that I'm going for. If I go to a church, and I give money, there are certain things that I move forward. If I advocate for a nonprofit, and I'm a big donor, there's certain things that move forward. Like it's like the the the way that money moves and makes things happen is disturbing to me. And it works to my advantage and varsity. Yeah, because I'm,

Seth Price 1:21:32

I don't think I'm gonna edit it out. I think I'm just gonna make you say, and just and let people wonder if you just started cussing like for, like 42nd street.

Jonathan W 1:21:42

That works, that works.

Seth Price 1:21:46

But I'll leave like every fourth word. Now leave it in there for the patrons so they can hear it. But the episode itself I think I'm just gonna you know, what really happens is talks. That's awesome.

Jonathan W 1:22:00

All the easiest place, though, for people to keep up with stuff is on Instagram. So you go to Instagram search, eh, activist or Jonathan Walton? Like, the all the stuff is there? Like best? Yeah. Easiest platform right now to manage?

Seth Price 1:22:17

Yeah, yeah. Cool. Jonathan, it's late. I appreciate you, man. Thanks for coming on.

Jonathan W 1:22:22

Glad to be here, man, I look forward to next time.

Seth Price 1:22:37

Now, I haven't added it up. But there are hundreds of 1000s, if not millions of podcasts on the internet. And I am humbled that you continue to download this one. This is your first time here. Please know that there are transcripts of these shows. Not always in real time, but I do my best. And if you go back in the logs, you can find transcripts for pretty much any episode that you'd like the show is recorded and edited by me, but it is produced by the patron supporters of the show. That is one of the best if not the best way that you can support the show. If you get anything at all out of these episodes, if you think on them, or if you you know you're out and about and you tell your friends about it or Hey, mom, dad, brother, sister, friend, boss, Pastor, here's what I heard. What are your thoughts on that? If this is helping you in any way, and it is helping me consider supporting the show in that manner. It is extremely inexpensive, but collectively, it is so very much helpful for you. I pray that you are blessed. And you know that you're cherished and beloved. We'll talk soon