Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Justin Douglas 0:00
If a church fails to…fails to listen to black voices and stories and consider their experience(s) and examine their own hearts, and the ways in which they've defaulted to privilege, that's not to say they can't do good things in the community, but it is to say whatever good things they're doing…there's a lot of organizations doing good things, you know what I mean? And look, the NFL just donated millions of dollars to the NAACP, I think or some organizations, but it's like, yeah, you know, it would be really great if you actually like reinstated Kaepernick and paid him for time lost, like because you guys screwed him. Like, it doesn't matter to me that you guys made this donation like that's cool, that's going to help that organization, but ultimately, it doesn't seem genuine. And I would also say like you can be doing all this great work in your community, maybe to combat homelessness, or to have a food pantry or, you know, like all these other things, clothing drives, and I don't want to discredit that work because there's great people doing that work. But I would say, what makes you stand for that matter of justice within your community and ignore this one, especially when the social consciousness is so awake to this like, why are you denying this? And I would say, if you're active in matters of justice, in those ways, it would seem even more like incongruent that you wouldn't even consider this as an act of justice.
Seth Price 1:55
Hey there this is Seth, you're listening to the Can I Say This At Church podcast. Glad you're here. And I'm sure you saw the title of the episode. And so I just want to talk about that a bit. Divorce yourself from any political attachments that you might have with the word “defund” as it relates to police or anything else, because I think if you give it a fair shake, what you'll hear Justin talk about here in a bit, matters. But I just want to say a few things quickly. The churches and institution I think, is currently two sides of one coin, and it probably always has been and there's probably more than one coin, but I just want to make the metaphor as simple as I possibly can for myself. But I just constantly wonder what damage we're doing to the witness of the church, to use a church word, when we stand for things that I don't think the gospel would allow or should allow. When I meditate on like Christ's words and when I pray, when I do all that, I get so convicted with the little bit of effort that it appears like in the church that many of us call home on than the voice that we use for oppression, I just get convicted that we're not using our voice and our influence to help fight oppression.
When I think about Jesus, that is not his ministry, it was subversive, it was overtly political. It was very smart. And it was full with compassion, love, and grace, and newfound understanding for those that didn't fit into the mold of what people thought was acceptable behavior, or acceptable culture, or acceptable religious practice. We still do it! I know it's been a while since I had one of these little monologues, if you will, but I am just so charged up about this topic. There's a gentleman, pastor Justin Douglas, that made a website that plays on that word of defund. And so while many of us get angry about defunding the police, and while many of us refused to actually dig in and see what that actually means. Justin has basically said, Well, what if we #defundthechurch?
What you're going to hear in this conversation is a conversation about what the churches role is, and why if the church is not doing that, should we give our resources to that church? I don't think Justin's arguing though for defunding the whole church just for making sure that we fund churches that seem to be doing work for the marginalized or the oppressed for the least of these it's gonna convict you I know it convicted me, but I look forward to it. Here we go.
Seth Price 4:45
Justin Douglas, I'm not gonna say pastor because your pastor all the time you're not tonight, at least not right now because because a lot of reasons but welcome to the show, man. Thanks for saying yes for coming on. And thanks for accepting a random friend requests from a normal random person on the internet.
Justin Douglas 5:00
(laughter) I do it all the time. It's interesting sometimes sometimes you never know.
Seth Price 5:04
I thought about asking you for money. I thought about asking you for money. Well, good. Well, so I would imagine most people listening may or may not be familiar with you…
Justin Douglas 5:16
Probably not.
Seth Price 5:18
So what would you want people to know about you?
Justin Douglas 5:20
Oh, man, that's interesting. Well, I have a wife and three kids. I love Jesus, I love the church. I'm a pastor. And ultimately, like, right now, one of the things I'm really championing is belonging within the church, and I think particular some groups have have struggled to find belonging within the church and and in my experience, that can be you know, anywhere from people of color to LGBT community to it's just, I would say it this way the church has struggled to listen well to groups that are on the fringes and I have a huge passion for helping people learn to listen and then learn to like adapt the church. And you know what better time than right now to adapt. I mean everybody's having to adapt and change right now and systems are being broken up. So that's kind of something that I'm passionate about.
I did a TEDx talk titled Beyond Boundaries, which is something that I kind of talked about, about pushing the church's boundaries outside of kind of what we've been, it was, I don't know, if you're familiar with centered, set, and bounded, that it was kind of using that terminology. And then I launched a podcast called Beyond Boundaries. So those are some opportunities if people want to know more about, you know, kind of that those ideas, but ultimately, that's something I'm passionate about.
And then as, as I started engaging more in the recent, you know, month following George Floyd, I was having a lot of talks with pastors and just seeing the inaction from the church. Amid you know, the cultural consciousness, just waking up and And I had had a moment back when I lived in Boston in 2008. I mean, I don't know how deep we want to go right away, obviously you asked the question
Seth Price 7:10
All the way.
Justin Douglas 7:13
…but yeah, I'll just say this and we can go deeper into it. But I grew up in rural Indiana, for the most part. I was born in Palm Springs lived there till I was eight and then spent the rest of my childhood and young, you know, young adolescence in Indiana and grew up on a farm, you know, heard my grandpa say the “N word” for the first time I heard it. You know, and with a hard r, like it was I grew up around, a lot of racism, a lot of prejudice, and I absorbed a lot of that. And then I went to a school of college that really didn't challenge that I went to Liberty University. While there were a lot of great things for me at Liberty, there was also a lot of negative or even things that were reinforced in my upbringing. And then I went and I did community organizing in Boston and I lived in a community that was 97%, either black or Dominican American.
And that changed a lot of my opinion on people of color. Because I got to be in relationship with them. I was the minority and I began to realize a lot of the stereotypes that I had been handed were coming from a place of ignorance. And so I feel this calling of saying, like, if I had never had that moment, I could very well be in the group of people right now that are pastors that are kind of, I guess, you could say playing it safe. Or at the very least, just being like, we don't want to be political, that's not who we are. But I realized there's a deeper thing happening here, I think because of that experience, and then the growth after that experience, certainly it wasn't just an experience I had (but) it kind of launched me on to beginning to look at my bookshelf and realize I was reading only white authors begin to realize how much of my history that I had been taught was really not a very well rounded history of America if anything it was whitewashed and beginning to just listen to different voices absorb different information.
And so when all this happened with George Floyd, and I saw the inaction in the church, and when I say inaction in the church, I want to be clear, predominantly the white evangelical church. I think there's a lot of action by church right now. So I just want to be clear, if you're listening this and your church is doing a lot of great stuff. That's awesome! But I would say for the most part, the white Evangelical Church is still kind of playing it safe. We'll put a statement out maybe and say some things, but we're not really acting, doing things. And so I started a project, ran up by a bunch of friends of mine, and who were people of color and just kind of was like, what do you think about this and some other friends of mine and and I've launched it called defund the church. Just because that language is very popular right now and it's very polarizing. And I thought, you know, I'm not trying to be a shock jock. But I also think like, there is something jarring about that statement that hopefully gets people's attention and lets people know. Like one of the things that people tend to think about when it comes to this conversation is I don't want to touch this with a 10 foot pole because people will leave the church. The first Sunday I said #BlackLivesMatter from the pulpit, we had people leave and I'm in a fairly, I want to say, progressive church.
But I would say like, We're an open minded community. And so there was a cost to saying that there was a cost to elevating the realities of what people of color experienced in America. And I know that pastors are thinking that way. They're thinking economically, it's not a theological move it's an economic movement. So for me, I'm like, let's put the pressure on the other side. Because there are people that I think are actually walking away from the church because the churches and talking about this. We're missing opportunities on the other side of this too. They're just not as vocal and they walk away or you're just missing opportunities. And there's a lot of people who would walk into a church who have seen such an action from the church for so long on so issues that they've just decided to walk away. So that's a little bit of what is happening of late. And I can get into any of that deeper that you want. But that's a little bit.
Seth Price 11:12
A couple follow up questions, and I didn't know this until so full disclosure. I intentionally did not watch the entire video that you have at defund the church today, about two hours ago.
Justin Douglas 11:26
Oh, cool.
Seth Price 11:28
And then I sent it to a couple friends of mine, some of which have been pastors, some are pastors, some are in other ministries of different things. And then a couple of them three actually said, Hey, can we talk real quick…so, but before we get there, um, Palm Springs, Indiana, what is the ratio of Palm Springs actual palms?
Justin Douglas 11:50
I have no idea. You mean you mean palm trees? Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, I've been back so like, yeah, there's there's palm trees everywhere out there.
Seth Price 12:00
In Indiana?
Justin Douglas 12:03
No, not in Indiana. Palm Springs, California.
Seth Price 12:05
Oh, I thought so…
Justin Douglas 12:07
Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. No, no. So I always say it this way I was I was born in Palm Springs, California. Sorry, maybe I said that wrong. I was born in Palm Springs, California. I lived there till I was eight. And I moved to Indiana. So I always say my parents did the reverse Beverly Hillbillies. I love Palm Springs, and then grew up on a farm in Indiana. So yeah, sorry if I said that backwards.
Seth Price 12:24
I was like, why would it be named whatever….
Justin Douglas 12:29
So Palm Springs, Indiana. We should we should like start a city called Palm Springs, Indiana!
Seth Price 12:34
Do it! Yeah, and then try to plant palms in greenhouses. So just a bit in common when you said you went to Liberty. I really related to that. I also went to Liberty when were you there?
Justin Douglas 12:46
I was there from 2000 to 2006.
Seth Price 12:49
We were there at the same time. So I graduated in ‘05. I should have graduated in ‘04 but I was really delinquent with going to Bio Lab because it's stupid. I wasn’t learning thing and then it wasn't until I met my wife (she made me go to class)..
Justin Douglas 13:05
What was your major?
Seth Price 13:07
Communications.
Justin Douglas 13:08
So you took a lot of the main like electives that I would take so you obviously know like Elmer Towns?
Seth Price 13:14
I was in one class with Elmer Towns.
Justin Douglas 13:16
Okay, I'm trying to think of who else you would have had. Did you Who did you take like your, your ethics class with was it?
Seth Price 13:23
Oh, you’d have to give me some names, let's see Danny Lovett…
Justin Douglass 13:27
Danny Lovett…yes, yep; I’m trying to think of people we would have had together.
Seth Price 13:31
I was trying to think of the guy that taught the bio class the other day. It's like Spong…Spock.
Justin Douglas 13:37
Yeah, yeah!
Seth Price 13:39
I can't think of his name.
Justin Douglas 13:39
I think it is like Spong or something like that.
Yeah, I had doctor I had Dr. Lee Gibson for ethics class that I remember that was like a general elective that everybody had to take. Yeah good times at Liberty, that’s awesome! That is so wild.
Seth Price 13:57
Yeah. Well, yeah and I also agree with what you said about Liberty in your video, but I'm curious.
Justin Douglas 14:02
That's got a little bit of shade from some of my friends.
Seth Price 14:05
Yeah, and and I tell people, I'm thankful for my time at Liberty. And some of my best friends have been people that I met in Liberty. And I talked with two of them today and we, you know, they're, they're my closest friends. But I could never go back there. Like, I've had people all the time. I'm like, would you go back to Liberty and like, not in a heartbeat? Not ever. I can't, I can't go. I don't even like to drive through it.
Justin Douglas 14:28
I feel like one of the things I've been doing on my journey is trying to Well, I mean, we say this all the time, like when you read a book or something like chew the fruits spit the seed type situation, what I'm trying to even look back over my like life and say, like, you know, you needed liberty in that season for for X, Y and Z you don't need that now. So you're not going to go back to that, like you needed that in your evolution of, you know, personhood at that time. So there's a lot that Liberty gave me at the time that I was there that was super beneficial. But there's also a lot they reinforced that made it harder to unlearn things that I would say like, I wish I didn't have to take both of those things. And I wish I would have, you know, and so like for me, like I used to recommend, I was a youth pastor for a while I used to recommend students to go to Liberty and I wouldn't anymore. Not because I don't think it could be the same experience for some students. But I would just say I think what I've seen from afar is that that reinforcing unless you have some type of experience, which I'd be interested to hear even yours, not that I'm interviewing you, but like, I found that most of my Liberty friends who have actually like, had some type of deconstruction moment it's usually come because there's been some external situation they've gone through. Whether that's a divorce or a worldview shift of being in a very different environment than they've ever been in or traveling the world or just You know, some crisis of faith or something that kind of shook them and got their attention and allowed them to see things differently.
But then the struggle I have is so many people move forward from that experience without any questions, without any investigation of what they've been taught and how they've been taught to learn. And I would also say I got my masters at Liberty as well. And I did that online and I found that to actually be a far more life giving experience than the on campus professors. So like, those were all farmed out professors that were not on campus at Liberty. So they were all like all over the country, they had to sign a Liberty statement of faith, but they were a lot more like open to you having a different difference of opinion. I remember writing a paper on Calvinism and getting reamed by the professor like, because of what I argued for, but I was like, but I made a good argument for it. I was like, we can disagree, but I mean, I think I'm, I'm writing a paper that's making a good argument. But it was against what the professor believed in undergrad. And I was like, I didn't realize I was writing to the professor, I thought I was here, for what you know.
So in masters, it was a very different experience where there was a lot more freedom for your own intellect and your own belief system to flourish as long as you can. So I guess I say that just to say like, I think there's good things, but I also think there's some things that that I struggle with. And ultimately, I do think that the lack of social awareness in this particular moment, but ultimately, even from the roots, a lack of reconciliation, for the roots, even of Liberty, I think, are going to continue to be its detriment until they get that under control and you're seeing that currently at Liberty.
Seth Price 17:44
We don't have to go into my thing, but I will answer your question in brief. I've talked about it a little bit here and there. What you'll find Justin is I don't actually give a lot of my story in the story in the podcast.
Justin Douglas 17:56
You should!
Seth Price 17:58
I know. Yeah. I mean, I find so what's funny is I have people tell me like no your stuff, we want to know more about you, but I don't find my stuff all that interesting, though I have begun writing some of it down and who knows, 27 years from now I'll finally be done with it or something, who knows how long it takes or if I'll ever let anybody see it. But no. So for me it was. So I left Texas to come. So I went from independent regular Baptist to Liberty. So maybe went a little more liberal than what my upbringing was. And then that was all well and good. And then I moved off campus because I had asthma because I can fake that, you know, I have to get off campus.
Justin Douglas 18:37
It's just funny to hear you say that because I know so many people that use random things to get off campus. (laughter both)
Seth Price 18:41
I do actually have asthma, but it's just an excuse. Yeah, I got Light Medical to sign off on it.
Justin Douglas 18:48
And by “You have asthma” it means you got a doctor to tell you you had it.
Seth Price 18:55
I have an inhaler!
But for me it was leaving liberty and joining the workforce. I came in close proximity to people that didn't believe mightily and didn't think like me, and really seemed to love God and had tremendous growth where I didn't have growth. And then I had a child with my wife. And that honestly uncovered emotions and a different view of the Divine that I didn't know I was allowed to have. And then yeah, just a lot of things after that, like I worked with someone that happens to be at the time she was lesbian, and she is still a lesbian you know what I mean, I'm saying this wrong. Yeah. But just being in proximity with people that didn't agree like me begin to make God bigger. And many of my friends that either are afraid of, I'm not gonna say the word progress, just the way that I see God. They haven't intentionally put themselves in positions to be with people that aren't like them. And they're afraid to ask any questions. And falling away from what you did believe is painful, it is.
But the questions are okay. systematic theology is also okay. But it's really small. Yeah, it's really small. Either way. That's just a little bit of me.
Justin Douglas 20:04
Yeah, you and I seem to have a similar experience, I think the moment you kind of realize the foundation you have, like, needs to be reassessed, like, and you've built so much on it, but you're interacting with people that are like, challenging all the truths of the foundation that you built. Like, you're like, what is going on here? Like I can't, I gotta take this all down and rebuild like from the foundation, that's hard. And then you realize, like, just how important it is to just be like, Jesus, like, Jesus needs to be my foundation on this other stuff. Whether it's right or left, like or anything in between, like, I just got to be careful to place anything and prop anything too high on that, that isn't centered on Jesus, because it's probably going to be at some point needed to be, you know, taken away. So that's been my experience and it seems like you've had a similar experience.
Seth Price 20:57
We'll have to have you back on or I'll be on with you or something. Yeah, that's a great conversation. Not why brought you on though? Yeah, that's the downside of not scripting the question.
Justin Douglas 21:06
No, you're fine. You're fine. You're fine.
Seth Price 21:08
So you have a website, which I went on a minute ago, you still need to build some more of that site like it kept saying “this is coming”.
Justin Douglas 21:13
Yeah, there's a lot of it's interactive. So like, the goal is to kind of see how some people use the resources and then build out from there. So like there is five main questions that we're asking the church, there's a guiding value, and then there's a sample letter. And that's pretty much all you're going to find on the website. It's a simple website. It's mainly just a place for those things to be stored; and then the video is on the main page. Outside of that there's really nothing there.
The goal is that we would actually have testimonials in the future. And oh, we also have five recommended resources that you and your church could maybe consider reading together. That's one other thing we have on there. But the goal is that we would have more resources in the future, but also testimonials of people who have actually sent the letter to their churches, whether those are positive or negative testimonials, to be honest, like I would post either. So we know some people who have began that conversation with their church. I actually just texted with somebody who has a meeting with one of their pastors tomorrow. So there’s definitely some, some movement happening. I think some people are also like, not willing to send things to their church about it even if they are advocates. They're kind of like, you know, you know, it's a hard thing. It's it's hard to, you know, I frame it as non-violent direct action in the tradition of Dr. King. That's not for everybody.
And I recognize that and I think my goal here was to say, hey, if you are fed up, don't just walk away. Like actually try to have a conversation before you do. You never know what progress you might make. And maybe you are committed to staying. And this is something you're passionate about seeing the church be active in so what does it look like to actually take some of these resources that I've already collected and created with other voices to, to actually, like, ask these questions and challenge your leaders with them. And I think they're fair questions.
I don't, you know, well defund the church is very flagrant. And I get that. I don't think the questions themselves, or the posture in which we even write the letter is argumentative, or, you know, negatively challenging, it is certainly challenging. But it's not challenging in the way of like, of like, do this or else like, every church is starting from a different place. And so that's what makes this challenging for me is like, I want to see churches take steps and take action. But I can't determine what action you know, some churches, if they get up and say Black Lives Matter, they're going to be closing their doors in two weeks. Like, that's just the reality of the situation of where they're at. Because that's how, just quite honestly, racist their communities are I don't know how else to say it any other way. Like they can't even say that from the stage. So they're gonna have to actually do a lot, a lot more groundwork and education work prior to any action or any statements that they make, right? I don't want to like give a one size fits all.
So that's actually while the the website might seem a little bit generic to some people because I want it to kind of be generic. I don't want a one size fits all like every church needs to do this because some churches need to be doing more and some churches need to be just take every church needs to be taken to the next step that they can take.
Seth Price 24:34
I want to dial it back. So my first thought when I read defund the church is…as one that is done a bit of work, understanding so I've been really intentional to say very little on social media, or really outside of my close friend group. Just because I feel like I don't know enough often to speak on many things, but especially in a conversation about race. When I understand that I'm you know, the I'm a White, right handed male and the world was built for me. So yeah, and that's a concept I took from actually today's episode that really is but I think Sean is on point there.
Yeah, he used the analogy of the sniper in the Saving Private Ryan movie where he's like we're left handed but shooting with a right handed sniper. So he keeps having to reach across in a really disjointed way just even worked the gun. And he's like this, you know, the world is built for right handed snipers and I’m not one. And Sean, I'm sorry, I'm sure you'll listen, and I'm not doing that right. But I like that and I've used it a couple times since then. Churches are staffed by clergy that are predicated on from Liberty, Pensacola, all these other universities, you know, Cedarville and a bunch more that I could name. So in a conversation of defund the church what role do you think our seminaries and our institutions that actually train the leaders of the church bear, and how quickly should they begin to try to pivot to whatever that needs to look like? Because I think the two are gonna have to work in unison, because the seminaries are what feed the churches, they feed the ministers. And they have to because the burnout rate is so high, so they have to they have to restock the shelves. However, different podcast.
Justin Douglas 26:09
So you can see how multifaceted this is though, like when we talk about systemic racism, this is what we're talking about. We're talking about the fact that like, this isn't just a church issue, while it is a church issue, because the church is ultimately going to be the place that's either going to allow those seminaries to stay status quo, or to actually challenge them to produce something different. But you also have the amount of white theological authors that get elevated within the church where the church rarely is elevating black voices within popular authorship or, you know, and I can say this for women too, like how many women are actually in your pulpit? How many black people are in your pulpit; black voices? And again, I want to be clear, I'm speaking about white evangelical churches. I know some churches are very intentional about that. But in my experience, what you're what you're exposing here is just one more facet of the reality. And I would say, you know, in the video I referenced Bob Jones and I referenced Liberty University is two highly influential for their time and place their leaders especially were highly influential in their theology, an idea of God, especially around issues of race, primarily segregation, being handed to a large swath of pastors. And then those pastors going and taking churches, and that happening for generations. I mean, that was class after class after class that that happened for a long time. It wasn't like, it was one year that Jerry Falwell had a bad idea, or Bob Jones had a bad idea.
I mean, I think I referenced in the video that Bob Jones didn't even change their policy on interracial dating until 2000. You can literally go watch the Larry King interview where Bob Jones (this is a four part interview…link takes you to the first part) announces that they're changing that policy. And when he announces it, he still actually doubles down on the theology. He just says, “we're changing it because we think this is just a bad witness to the world that we're getting all this bad publicity”. Like he pretty much is like that we don't repent of the bad theology. We're just saying we can recognize that the public is seeing this and only this and we don't want them to see this this isn't that important to us.
He doesn't say it's a bad theology, which is just shocking and so that school and Bob Jones you know, being one of the first to radio, had a huge influence on the church and on young pastors. Now I will say these are obviously largely conservative universities but Liberty, between Bob Jones and Liberty, Liberty would be progressive, you know what I mean? But like they still have a lot of just I don't know racist roots I mean if you look at liberties even their elementary school that's on campus you remember LCA? You were there, right?
Seth Price 29:12
Oh yeah. I was there when it was like a small it was off campus..
Justin Douglas 29:16
(right) it was off campus and then it came on campus right? Yep. You were there at the same time as me see, remember they came…
Seth Price 29:20
They bought the Sony Erickson building there…
Justin Douglas 29:23
Yeah. So how much do you know about LCA? Did you know that LCA was actually a segregation school like that they were a school that was built for the purpose of when the schools in Lynchburg began to desegregate that Falwell launch that school with the intention of white students only. Like most people don't know that. Like, it's just not talked about it. I certainly didn't learn about it till after I left Liberty. So it's like things like that you don't just overcome with a statement. Like it's actually in my opinion, become so much of the I guess…it's learned through osmosis almost like we have these bad ideas that we actually have to intentionally be, like, anti these bad ideas in order to uproot so much of what they've created within our churches.
And so I think it is seminaries. I think it is schools, I think it is, you know, publishing companies that are only publishing largely white right handed males. You know and Christian radio that's largely playing white, you know, like, you know, if you could just go on and on and on about how much we lacked diversity. But ultimately, I think it starts with the church, because I do think the church is where we have the power to change people's hearts and minds with the gospel-and ultimately with the with the inclusive nature of Jesus. And so, I mean, we look at stories like the good Samaritan, and we look at stories like the woman at the well, who's a Samaritan and we're like wow, Samaritans and Jews hated each other. And Jesus is constantly bringing the disciples along these journeys, of like exposing them to these people that they've been taught their whole life to hate.
And I mean, I love the story of the woman at the well. Just real quick not to become preachy, I'm not trying to go into preacher mode, but I'll just say this. We are disciples of Jesus right? We're disciples of Jesus. I think it's interesting that you know, in John 4 Jesus sits down with a woman at a well, sends the disciples into town to get food, which I wish we would have had a whole chapter on their experience, like walking into town, getting food and coming back because they had to be terrified. Like they've never interacted with Samaritans in their own land, like the Jewish people would walk around Samaria, they would actually add a day's journey to their trip, not through Samaria. The text starts with Jesus had to walk through Samaria. He didn't have to, he chose to and by half to I think he felt this need this calling, to begin breaking down this barrier knowing that it was going to be painful. Knowing that it was going to challenge the status quo of the disciples, and then he puts them in the most uncomfortable position ever, by sending them in to get food.
And they bring the food back to him to find him actually talking with a Samaritan woman at a well, which has all kinds of implications, including the romantic implications, which we don't talk about that you're at Jacobs, well, this well, where people have found their spouse before in the past, like, does that make sense? And Jesus is talking to a woman and a rabbi is really not supposed to be talking to a woman in this way, asking for a drink from her, which is like, well, what are you doing? And then like, there's just so much wrong with the story that we could go into. But the thing that I find interesting is the disciples give them food, and he's like, I'm not hungry. And it’s like what! You send us into town, to get food, to interact with the Samaritans who could kill us and you're not hungry! It's like because it wasn't about the food. It was about the experience of you guys having to go be uncomfortable, because you've been taught to hate this group.
And I think we're in a season where the church needs to be uncomfortable because we're not aware of the deep hatred that we have, and racism and prejudice and bias that we have toward a group of people, because it's so in-culturated and ingrained in us. And I think Jesus is trying to walk us into Samaria and sitting down or dwell and say Go on in. I'll be out here like, you know, and and, and that's not to say Jesus isn't with us in it. But I guess what I'm trying to say is Jesus is trying to expose us to the hard-heartedness that we have and maybe give us a different direction.
Seth Price 33:47
You are…well, I'm trying to figure out a frame this and what you'll find is I ramble if I don't have my thoughts in order.
Justin Douglas 33:58
I do the same.
Seth Price 33:59
I have a couple questions. So the first is as people, I fully agree that people vote with their money, I mean, there's the Goya food products. I don't even know what he said or the CEO of Goya did something with the president and people are boycotting Goya or whatever.
Justin Douglas 34:11
Really?
Seth Price 34:13
Yeah, I just saw on the, you know, the iPhone like gives you that news update and I went yeah, don't care, doing something and I haven't really read I don't I don't, he doesn't even warrant because I don't really buy their products to begin with. It's just not the Yeah, my family eats, at least not enough to buy anyway, see what happens when I ramble. Here we go. I'm gonna say this. So there are a lot of churches that are overtly racist that still do massive amounts of good in their community. But I think they do it out of pity. That's a different, that's a different note. But so as churches, predominantly I think funded from a dying generation and or mine and yours generation and are trying to be a little more intentional with where we give our resources. What happens in that vacuum, when you have churches with best intentions, but not really the best hearts funding social programs in and around areas, and they begin to be defunded. And I don't think they'll necessarily be replaced with another church, because my generation doesn't seem overly concerned with starting another church overall, I'm talking about at a national level or even at a global level. So what happens with the defunded church and the institution, the machinery behind it, as it helps the communities that it's in as they're defunded? And I want to be really clear, you'd asked me earlier, some of my thoughts about, you know, the economy or whatever. Whatever was going to happen to the church in the next 60 years will end up happening before 2025 because of the Coronavirus. Endowment funds only have so much money and they're tied to the stock market and or fed rate. Fed rate is at zero in the stock market is a dumpster fire. So the endowments are going to go away. You know what I mean? So whatever the church, the lingering, hospice care of the church is quickly escalated.
Justin Douglas 35:58
Wow, I love how you put. I love how you framed it as hospice care because, yeah, I mean, to be honest, that's, that’s so true. Okay, so there's a lot in that question.
First, I would say, if a church fails to listen to black voices and stories and consider their experience and examine their own hearts and the ways in which they've defaulted to privilege that's not to say they can't do good things in the community, but it is to say whatever good things they're doing—there's a lot of organizations doing good things, you know what I mean? And look, the NFL just donated millions of dollars to the NAACP, I think, or some organization, but it's like, yeah, you know, it would be really great if you actually like reinstated Kaepernick and paid him for time loss, because you guys screwed him. Like it doesn't matter to me that you guys made this donation like, that's cool that's going to help that organization. But ultimately, it doesn't seem genuine.
And I would also say like you can be doing all this great work in your community, maybe to combat homelessness, or to have a food pantry or you know, like all these other things, clothing drives, and I don't want to discredit that work, because there's great people doing that work. But I would say, what makes you stand for “that” matter of justice within your community and ignore “this” one, especially when the social consciousness is so awake to this, like, why are you denying this? And I would say, if you're active in matters of justice, in those ways, it would seem even more like incongruent that you wouldn't even consider this as an act of justice. And here's what I would say. I would say I actually have a difference of opinion for you of our generation not wanting to start churches or be in churches and the reason I say that is because I think iteration hasn't seen anybody actually, like stand boldly on the principles of Jesus for peacemaking, justice, legitimately standing with the marginalized in an overt way. And I’ve found that the more I've done that boldly and taken courageous steps to do that that I've connected with a lot of 35 and unders who have literally been like, I never thought I'd find a church like this, let alone in my own community, I’m so there. So like, we just had our first gathering since Coronavirus, our first social distance gathering, if you will, and I think we had like 15 to 20 new people. And a lot of them heard about it because I helped organize a Black Lives Matter rally in our community.
So like, I mean, I will say that I think when pastors show up and speak boldly about matters of justice (that) the millennial generation and Generation Z are very interested in matters of justice, and I don't think they've given up on their faith. I think they've given up on the faith that the church, that the larger white evangelical church, has handed them. And so I actually think you might find that there's a whole group ready to be mobilized but there's just not anybody saying what's connecting in their faith, like what's connecting them to Jesus is these stories that are ultimately the marginalized being championed and cared for.
So I will say that doesn't mean there's with any systematic change, there's going to be hiccups along the way, there's going to be people who are probably adversely affected by that. And so I don't want to discredit that potential. And I would also say that there's a whole other element here that all I'll say I have problems with, when I say defund the church, which is that as a pastor for 15 plus years, I've had many people come to me and say, change this or I'm taking my money elsewhere. And so there's been a lot of people who have used finances in a way hold pastors hostage over the years or church boards hostage over the years, and I have a lot of I guess, knee jerk negative reactions to that. But what I will say is if you actually look at the process we're advocating for, we're not telling anyone to go to their boards and say, “if you don't do this, we'll take this away”. We're asking them to ask questions, to begin a conversation to call them in before you call them out, which is our guiding value. And so like this is an invitation to participate and we're not saying give your church two weeks and then walk away. We're not saying give them two years and walk away. We're not creating the timeline. You create the timeline. You know, your church, you know what you feel needs to be done and you know, the hearts of your leaders and you know, how open they are or how closed they are to this conversation.
So there is no prescription in that like, you need to pull your money tomorrow. Like that's not what this is talking about. I think what this is talking about is saying we need to ask difficult questions of our leaders. Our leaders need to be hearing these questions from the people in their community who have a passion for justice, and racial reconciliation. And so if we don't mobilize to ask these questions, and if we don't let them know that this is an imperative thing for us, this isn't an outer ring thing, this is a gospel thing. Then inaction is is ultimately going to be likely what we find. And so if you're in your church, and you're like, you know, our food pantry is the thing that is helping so many people that are in poverty in our community, I can't walk away because of that. I would say, well, then keep working with your leaders to answer these questions more robustly than they have and to to say well, you read this book with me. I support the food pantry, I want to keep supporting it. I don't want to take my money away. Will you read Just Mercy with me? Will you read Trouble I've seen with me? Will you Actually like open these books here these concepts out and consider them?
So I think we have to be imaginative in the way that we engage our leaders. I don't think it has to be an either or. And I don't think we have to say progress has to happen at this rate or I'm out. But ultimately, I don't want to be the determiner of that because I will say in my experience, there have been times where I've gone in graciously and realized that what I'm working with is a system that is refusing to change and there's not an openness to learn. And at that point, I do think that direct action and walking away is is ultimately what needs to be done even if that has consequences on the structure and again, like you said, now's the time to innovate now's the time for these systems to change because we are in the midst of so much change with Coronavirus.
Seth Price 42:54
I guess we do, I'm not gonna say fundamentally disagree there, but I get so many emails. You'd be surprised how many pastors listen to the show. Yeah, they're just things. And it's why I named the show the name that I did. Like, there's just so many things that pastors I don't think feel comfortable giving an answer to. And so there are things that people won't ask at church, which is why I kicked so many sacred cows on this show, or at least try to.
I want to pivot a different way. So I can see this working in like a nondenominational setting or maybe even a Baptist setting where there's like autonomy of each as long as you're not part of like the Southern Baptist, whatever. But what if you're part of like an Episcopal or a Methodist or Presbyterian or something like that where the congregational body like they own your building, they control the clergy, and they also in a large part, control the coffers. Even the funding or the defunding of them. So how does a minister or community in a type of a church organization that functionally operates differently?
Justin Douglas 43:53
So you're talking about a church this congregation-ally lead?
Seth Price 44:00
Yeah, yeah. So those churches, like I said, working but like so say, I want to defend the church, but I'm in the Episcopal faith. And my minister doesn't have the ability to do that. Like it's just not…
Justin Douglas 44:11
Why doesn't you church have the ability?
Seth Price 44:11
From what I understand a lot of the way that those churches structurally are set up is the building is owned by the church, not the local church body…
Justin Douglas 44:24
Oh so you're talking about the denomination?
Seth Price 44:27
Yeah, yeah.
Justin Douglas 44:29
So I do talk about the need for these conversations to be happening at a denominational level as well. I do make it clear that like this letter, the sample letter, should be sent to your denominational leaders too, if you have denominational leaders. Because I think no matter what organization you're in, whether that Southern Baptist you know, if you have a structure beyond your particular community, I think you should be sending the letter to them as well.
I mean, I personally think everybody in the church, whether you're a leader, a volunteer, any capacity of leadership that you hold within the church you should be wrestling with these questions. Like, I don't think they're exclusive to our pastors, but I will say the seats that hold the most power typically are pastors and boards, and yeah, denominational leaders. I would say though, we're in a time in history where if you're a pastor, and you want to speak about the matter of justice, and your denomination says no. Do it anyway.
Like, that's my opinion. I mean, I understand that might be hard for some people to hear, but I'll say like, I've lived that experience. I've done it anyway and gone against my denomination on things and so and I've gotten kicked out of my denomination for that that is part of my history. So like, so I'll say like, I'm not saying that to say there's not a consequence. I'm literally, I'm in a house that, you know, I was in a parsonage at the time I had to move. I mean, I I've lived that experience and I've dealt with the consequences of it.
But I will say this, if you're a pastor and your conscience can live with knowing that you should say something, but determining not to, because your denomination is telling you not to, then you can live with that—I couldn't. And so I would say if you can't live with that, say something.
I will tell you, you will find, that there are a lot of people that you will connect with, that you never thought you would connect with on matters of faith. I will say many friends of mine that are atheist, agnostic, not connected to God in any way, gained a certain level of respect for me in my ability to just stand up for what I believed was right in that time, but then ultimately, it's opened up all kinds of faith conversations with them because they've really never seen anybody be that authentic, even when everything was on the line. And I've actually seen multiple people come to faith through that experience. And so I would say we always tend to think, when it comes to matters of us standing up for these things in a flagrant way or in a way that might be bring about negative consequences, we always tend to think of it in worst case scenarios, because that's just how we're built. We're built to think about the financial consequences, the social consequences, all of that. And I think that's valuable to consider because it is going to be a toll on you in that way.
But I think you should also have an imagination for recognizing that usually the people who actually step up in that kind of a bold way, Rosa Parks, for example, are the people who come out in history to be the ones who are on the side of change are on the side of justice who err on the side of, of doing what was right when it was hard.
Don't be like the church has been throughout history where you wait till it's easy to come to the side of justice. Like that's kind of been our history, at least in the white Evangelical Church. I say this in the video, like we watch movies like something And we act like we were on the right side. It's like the church was totally on the wrong side, we celebrate that we watch it with our communities. And it's like, Look, it's a great movie, you should watch it. I'm not saying you shouldn't, but like recognize where the church was in that moment. It's a learning experience for us to recognize that like Martin Luther King, Jr. is writing from a jail cell saying it's not even the KKK that I have the biggest problem with it's the white moderate, that's a churchgoer that won't stand with us. Why won't you stand with us? You believe in the same Jesus I do. I expect the KKK to operate the way they are. I expect the white Councilman to operate the way he is. But I don't expect the white pastors, and the white church, to be so apathetic to this movement, and even altogether against it. And I would say when I'm talking to my, you know, black brothers and sisters who are friends of mine, they're saying the same thing today.
Like, I can't believe the white church is not on the front lines right now. And so I think it's imperative I understand there's a lot of potential consequence. But I think we're repeating history, but it's likely because we don't recognize our places. in history, and that we weren't there at those times, and we missed those opportunities.
Seth Price 49:07
You’ve used the word justice a couple times…can you give meaning to that? Like when you say justice, what do you mean? Because I think people will hear that and hear what they want it to mean. So when you say justice, like how are you defining that?
Justin Douglas 49:17
Well, I would start with sin being culpable disturbance of Shalom, I think that's Hauerwas’ definition of sin. And so I think justice is what restores shalom within our world peace, justice, things being things being right within the world.
And so I would say like when we look at the systems of racism within our world, it's really clear to see that these are not bringing shalom into our culture into our world, into our environment into our nation if you're watching this, and you're from the United States. So I would say for example, things like segregation, things like redlining and if you're not familiar with redlining, this is where school districts are clearly, and by the way I live just outside of Harrisburg, Harrisburg Central Dauphin East is one of the most redlined districts like, I don't know, probably ever like, it's crazy how incredibly racial they drew these lines intentionally; and the consequences of that.
This is not bringing about shalom in the world. So even just like an education, in input in policing, in incarceration in I could just keep going like in the way that people are hired. If you actually listen to black voices, like experiences, you begin to realize there's all kinds of problems that are that are not bringing about the shalom that that the Christ would seek within our world, but that we have an obligation to love our neighbor as ourselves. And so like my desire is to love in these places and and so There's multiple descriptors of love and in Corinthians, and we're told, love always protects. It's like, what does it look like? What's my obligation to love my neighbor to protect my neighbor?
And we're really quick to think of that in a militaristic way. You know, like I protect and that's why I have a gun. But we're not willing to think of it in an imaginative way of like, I protect by actually showing up to a to a city council meeting and saying, “Our policing policy is hurting people, this is not okay”. This is a way of protecting even just standing in and using my privilege as a white male in a way to elevate black voices. This is a way of protection to just in that I'm elevating and platforming their voices so I could go on and on. But ultimately, I would say, I think it's about the idea of shalom. And look, obviously we live in a fallen world we're not going to have shalom, exactly, we're only going to get glimpses of it in this world.
Okay, that's just the reality at this moment, but we are called to pray and to seek heaven to come to earth like that is our that is that is what how Jesus tells us to pray to pray on earth as it is in heaven. And so so we have this mandate, if you will, to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves. And then we also have this image that that God gives us of praying for heaven to come to earth. And I think if we ignore matters of justice we're not living up to that mandate. So in my mind matters of justice mean where shalom is being disturbed we're called to come in and seek shalom.
Seth Price 52:39
I like and I like that word shalom. I took it from past guest of the show, Brandon Andress and hadn't really heard that word or wrestled with it much since then. But it's in a book that he wrote and I I've used it often shalom as a whole concept of shalom.
Justin Douglas 52:51
It's more than peace. It's like wholeness. It's this concept of when things are right. I don't know have a few times where it is the last time I had it was just a few days ago actually where I was laying on the trampoline, we had just got done like jumping on the trampoline with my kids. And I was just laying on the trampoline like exhausted and tired from jumping, and laying with my kids. And I looked up and we have these like, they gotta be 100 feet tall, trees like around our trampoline there in the yard. And I'm just laying here looking up and all these trees are like a canopy and my kids are just laughing and playing. And it's like this one moment of like everything's right right now, even though everything's not everywhere. It just, there's this moment where the Spirit, like, just breathe something fresh on you like everything's good right now. And it's very rare that you get those moments and I think we should, we should embrace those when we experience them. But I think we should also be advocating for and seeking those moments where we can breathe justice into someone else's experience using our influence and our voice.
Seth Price 53:56
Two more questions. One, I'd kind of like to just this is just projecting the future. So humans are in love with power. That's why we don’t have term limits. And so the church also is in love with power, both politically and spiritually. And so I'm if we're hopeful that somehow or another, we as an institution to figure out how to cede power and elevate the voices of the oppressed, since that's usually where Jesus is; with the voice of the oppressed. What does that look like for the next 10 to 15 years as the church basically fights back?
Because I do think there's a huge swath of the church is going to go “No, this isn't acceptable. That's not the gospel”! You know what I mean?
Justin Douglas 54:37
Yeah!
Seth Price 54:39
What do you envision that being because it's gonna be…violent is not the right word…tense isn't either it's going to be extremely uncomfortable. I don't know what the right word is. But what do you feel like those death throes look like?
Justin Douglas 54:48
I mean, the right word is probably like divisive. That's the biggest thing I get told. This is divisive. Justin, I'm like you have a picture of….
Seth Price 54:58
Have they read Jesus?
Justin Douglas 55:00
Yeah. Well, I mean look it’s sometimes too easy to always position yourself as like I have the Jesus position and you don't. And so I'm always cautious to be like, well, I'm on the side of Jesus and you're not. But I will say, like Jesus is incredibly divisive at times. And he also has moments where he could be incredibly divisive and chooses not to be. So I don't think it's an either or, I think it's Jesus recognizes typically, I mean, at least in my understanding of Jesus, there's times where he recognizes the imperative of the moment.
And so one example is when Jesus, and this is the most obviously violent or aggressive example of Jesus where it goes in and flips tables over. Most people don't understand what's happening there is that there's an exploitation of people who are poor. People who are poor are being exploited and up charged, in essence, for their sacrifices during Passover. And so there's this huge need to make a sacrifice because it's the way in which are made right with God. And what better time than Passover when everyone who's Jewish needs to make a sacrifice to upcharge and bring it right into the temple? So they can just buy it right there and put a tax on it, if you will, you know, the upcharge? And Jesus sees this happening and he's like, he probably sees people literally giving their life savings, because they feel like if they don't, they're not going to be made right with God. And that has to be very painful for him to watch the the absolute corruption of not only the marginalized, like preying on the marginalized, but even further the corruption of the place of God, the temple.
And I would say that's what we're dealing with right now. We're dealing with a church that in their apathy, whether they're willing to admit it or not is in a lot of ways, preying on black and brown people. We're not standing up and using our influence to bring about justice in our world. And I would even say in a lot of ways we're allowing that apathy, or even racism, to go unchecked. And at the same time we're defiling the temple. We're making church, not about justice, not about considering the social realities of our day. So I look at that and I say, you know, look, this is probably going to be a divisive season for the church.
But I would say this, though, have the last 20 years not been divisive for the church? Like I don't…when a lot of people are like, don't do that, because that's divisive. I'm like, I don't really understand what do you want me to do? If you go on the other side, it's divisive too like don't act like what I'm doing is divisive. But being apathetic and not speaking up on matters of justice isn't divisive if I have to, it's just not as in your face. And I can understand how you're more happy with like people being quieter, it's more palatable. But I don't think it lacks the divisiveness I think the truth is, here's the truth that a lot of people don't want to hear, It's divisive for black and brown people, so you don't have to experience it.
Like when I talk to my black and brown friends, that's what they say. They say the Evangelical Church has been silent since King, and before that, even. And again, I want to be clear, that's not all white churches. If your church is predominantly white and you're doing amazing justice work. I don't want you to feel like I'm calling you out.
I'm just more saying, you know, in general, that's been my experience. And I would also say there's a lot of science that's been, you know, polls that have been done to show that tends to be the reality and white evangelical churches. And so it's easy to be apathetic and feel like it's not divisive because the people you're dividing yourself from are people you don't actually have to be in community with. And I would say, I'm less interested in being in community with white people and so I'm not afraid, in essence to, to disrupt my relationships with white people, including white pastors that I'm friends with. Because a lot of people are watching this right now and they can't stand me they're really upset with what I'm saying, and I get it.
But I'm more interested in seeking justice than facilitating and continuing my relationship with white pastors and white churchgoers. And I think until we get to that place as a church, everything anyone says about matters of justice is going to be divisive, or it's going to be so watered down that it's not even going to speak to the cultural moment. So many people are making posts that sound far more corporate as churches about unity, and racial justice, and all the stuff that it's like, okay, but like what does that mean? That's a great statement. Look, statements matter; statements matter. I don't want to say statements don't matter, they do matter. But it's like, what are you actually going to do? You know, the first question where we talk about like examining our hearts in this church, and, you know, asking God to show us where we have defaulted to our privilege and preferences over what God envisions for the kingdom. It's like, are you actually going to lead your church on that journey? Because that's a hard reality to examine your hearts in the matter of racism and privilege. And to me a statement that just says, we're going to lead our church on that examination is far greater than a statement of like unity and racial justice. Because usually those are like a statement and then the church doesn't really do anything.
And I mean, I know one pastor who said (on) the Sunday after George Floyd, to a friend of mine, you know, I have to go figure out what I'm going to say about all this “racial stuff“. And in essence, it was just this, like, I have to go figure out what I'm going to say about this because people expect me to say something; like, as if it's a burden. And it's like, and look, I'm not going to say, as a pastor, it's not burdensome to deal with matters of justice, in the sense of heavy and hard, but in a lot of ways, it just came off as this like, “Oh, I wish I didn't have to say something but people are going to expect it“. Like, you know what I mean? And to me, I sense that when a lot of churches make these statements it comes off to me like that, like, we're not really interested in making the statement, but we'll make it because people expect it. And I definitely want to see more action. And I think the questions we asked, Are all action oriented, like, or at least moving people toward action. So yeah, should I say the questions because where people can go to defundthechurch.com and see the questions.
Seth Price 1:01:51
Let's make them go do the work. Make them go and then while you're there, look at the resources. I've read the questions, I have them saved. I'm also a little partial to the black and yellow myself.
Justin Douglas 1:02:05
It was Wiz Khalifa, you know, black and yellow; I'm just kidding.
Seth Price 1:02:11
Um, so last question, when you are trying to wrap your mind around so you're sitting across the table from someone or your kids or someone else's kids or whatever, and they're like, hey, Justin. So when you say God, what do you actually mean? What would you say to that?
Justin Douglas 1:02:28
So I had a moment of deconstruction, where that was a question that I struggled with. I actually, I shared about a four week stint where I was preaching the Bible, and I didn't even know if I believed in God, like, which is an awkward place to be as a lead pastor. So I would encourage people not to do that.
Seth Price 1:02:46
I had one of those as a worship leader at the church as well, where I'm just, I can sing the songs, I guess…why not.
Justin Douglas 1:02:51
You know what's wild is I know a lot of pastors have had experiences like that, some of which have actually been honest about it, and some of which just continue to kind of Like, and it's, it's hard to be honest with it because it really is a foundational, like to have a deconstructing moment when everything you've constructed is how you've built your career, your relationships, all of it. It's hard. But in that moment, one of the things that brought me back I wouldn't say it simplified my faith, but I would say it made my foundation very clear. And I alluded to this earlier that my foundation is on Jesus. And so Hebrews 1:3 says,
Jesus is the exact representation of God, the pure radiance of His glory, the exact representation of his being.
And for me, I think that's interesting because the author of Hebrews, it's at the very beginning, he's writing to Jewish people who have an understanding of God from the Old Testament. And the immediate, like the third verse is pretty much saying, Jesus is the exact representation of God. Whatever you think you know about God filter it through the lens of Jesus. And if does not compute it is not the exact representation of God.
Like, that's kind of how I read it. Like when I read it that way, I was like, wow, this is this changes all the struggles that I have with Old Testament God and New Testament God, like, to me, I just always saw this like, stark difference between the God of the Old Testament and the God of Jesus like I just I didn't, they did not connect to me. And so Hebrews 1:3 for me, like helped me see that like, God hasn't always been accurately represented in the Old Testament. Like that's not to say, God wasn't the God he is now in the Old Testament that God changed. You know, it's more to say like, people were flawed and God was meeting them where they were. And ultimately God met us in fullness through Jesus exact representation through Jesus.
And so for me, when I think of God, I think of Jesus I think of the life ministry, death resurrection, ultimately that the reality of the story of who Jesus was when I think of God. And so that's to me is the exact representation of God. So that's kind of a simple answer. I don't know if that's what you're getting after you can feel free to ask follow ups.
Seth Price 1:05:16
No, whatever the answer is, is your answer. So yeah, no, I like um, so where do people go so defund the church is the website for that, but what so point people in the right places where do you want them to go?
Justin Douglas 1:05:30
Sure, yeah, so okay. If you want to friend me on Facebook, obviously, I'll friend anybody! Just kidding you could find me, Justin Douglas on Facebook and on Instagram. I'm @pastorJustinDouglas. defund the church calm. Pastor Justin Douglas calm. I have a podcast called Beyond Boundaries. I also did a TEDx talk called Beyond Boundaries. Yeah, I mean, I guess those are the main places the church that I pastor is called the belong collective. We had our first physical gathering, but we're still doing digital gathering. So if you want to participate from wherever you are, you can participate in that. And I want to also be clear, just because I think this is really important, I'm a pastor of a church and I'm kind of spearheading a defund the church. I'm not gonna call it a movement, because I don't think it's that you know, much of a deal right now. But, ultimately, like, the first question I always get is like, well, we should start with your salary. And I'm like, you should, if our church is not having conversations about issues of justice, then yeah, start with myself I 100% agree, like, by all means, start with me.
And I would say we've, as a board asked these questions as well. And I'll say like, our board is three women and three men and no people of color represented on our board. And we're working through that, like we're having that conversation and we're very open about that conversation with our community. And so like, I just want to say like, this isn't like some high horse that I'm on as if we're doing things perfect. We've got a lot to unlearn at the belong collective to like, we've got a lot to Work on matters of justice. I don't think this is like, Hey, everyone, here's the finish line, just get to here and then you're done.
Like, this should be an ongoing conversation where we're amplifying and listening to black voices and people of color and and ultimately trying to hear their experience and have a sensitivity to that to where we can enfold people into our communities better. And ultimately, maybe the church would reflect the diversity of the kingdom. Yeah, like, how beautiful would that be? And so that's my heart in all of it. But ultimately, if you want to connect with me or connect with ministries that I'm a part of, I would love for that.
Seth Price 1:07:32
Yeah. Perfect. Thank you for your time. And I just I'm aware of how late it is, most people listen, I think probably on their lunch break or whatever, so they don't know how late it is. (Laughter) But yeah, thanks. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Justin Douglas 1:07:42
Of course, thank you for having me.
Seth Price 1:08:01
We have a lot to do, don't we? More so than I think that we realize, and it's going to come for the decades and decades and decades to come after that. We have dug ourselves in a hole that I think we can't even see the light at the top of the tunnel anymore. But collectively, I believe that we can work together towards change. I think the work that people like Justin Douglas are doing here, and many, many others is worth it needed. And when you engage with it, the anger that it sometimes comes up with, when you talk about defunding the church, I think that anger should be recognized, dealt with, and used as energy to affect real change. I know that's what I want to do.
So this is a part of the episode that, you know, I'm going to ask you to rate and review the show and that type of stuff. And I know that you're going to be tempted to like fast forward 30 seconds because you really just want to get to the music at the end of the episode. But here's the thing. I'm not gonna make it 30 seconds, so you're never really going to know where that button is. So you're going to go forward too far, then you're going to come backwards too far, you know, because you rewind it another 15 or 20 seconds and you're just going to miss the whole thing, get frustrated and throw your phone and nobody wants that! So I think what you should do instead is join people like Matthew Boyle, who has become the newest patron supporter of the show, go to the show notes go to the website go to a lot of different places but you can find ways to support the show either financially through Patreon which is definitely the preferred way but outside of that you can share rate and review etc., etc.. And so thank you to every single one of you does that with that now let's do the music with a big thank you to Heath McNease for your music again in this episode I can't wait to talk to you all again. bless everybody.