Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Ruth Everhart 0:00
It's about power dynamics, sexual abuse is always the abuse of power. And that is why the church has such trouble with it because we're so steeped in the notion that it makes sense for men to have power and women to submit that to see this clearly means to unmask something so, kind of, basic and that feels just so natural or normal for a lot of people because they've grown up with it that is tough.
Seth Price 1:07
Hey there, how are you doing everybody? I am Seth, welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad that you downloaded the episode today. So here's what I want to do. I don't want to do the rate and review all that goodness, maybe we'll do it at the end. I haven't made my mind up yet. I really just want to dive right into this show.
So I brought Ruth Everhart onto the podcast and her book was sent to me by the publisher to read and she talks about the #metoo movement in the church and the reckoning, that's going to happen from it. And we talk a bit about sexual assault in the churches complicity in that. And so I just want to caution people, although we don't really have specific details, there's nothing really extremely graphic, the subject matter (and) content may trigger you a bit. And so if that's not something that you can do safely at this moment, might want to set this one aside. However, I think it's vitally important for the health of our church for the health of one another that we lean into conversations like these conversations on race and power and oppression, sexual oppression, purity culture, they have to be talked about, like they need to have light shone on them, they need to be reckoned with and so I just wanted to give that warning. So with that said, here we go.
Seth Price 3:01
Ruth Everhart, thanks for coming on the show. And before you say anything, I think it's been since March that I have figured out a way to coordinate this that I've been talking with IVP to get you on the show and most of that's my fault. Part of that is the economy. Part of that's my job part of that is the Coronavirus. All those are excuses. So I intended to talk to you months ago, and I didn't. And I'm sorry, but I'm glad that you're here tonight.
Ruth Everhart 3:26
I'm glad to be here tonight.
Seth Price 3:29
When your publisher reached out to me and said, Hey, this is a conversation. Are you willing to have it specifically alot of the conversations I try to have on the show, I try to skirt around topics that I'm ignorant of or really don't have much of a what's the word? I don't have a lot of experience. And this honestly is one for me sadly enough, which we'll get into in a minute. But before we get to your book and the topic at hand, what would you want people to know about you if you were just take a few minutes and say these are the most important things that actually make me me like as you look back through time, you're like, yeah, these are the pivotal moments that made me whatever you are right now?
Ruth Everhart 4:09
Right. Well, I was raised in the church, I was raised specifically in the Christian Reformed Church, and if you know that it's a conservative denomination. And I attended Christian Schools all my life. So I am a product of the church, you know, and my parents even worked in the Christian school system. And I attended the College of that denomination, which is Calvin College in Michigan. And so I was really a “good girl”. And, you know, I was raised to be a good girl and I knew how to be a good girl.
And then when I was a senior at Calvin, this traumatic event happened that completely reshaped my life and it reshaped my understanding of who I was, because there was this traumatic sexual assault by strangers who broke into our house. And what that did for me was completely destroy my faith, and my life, and my understanding of how the world works. And so I had to really rebuild that over the course, I would say of the next decade. And eventually I heard the call to ministry and I went to seminary, and that was something that would have been off the table for me in my prior life, because girls, women are not allowed to be in ministry. And I ended up becoming a Presbyterian minister (and) got ordained in the PC USA, and I've been in ministry ever since which is now I can talk about that in terms of decades; a long time.
Seth Price 5:49
I don't know anything about the Christian Reformed Church, but I know there's like 97,000 denominations of Protestant Christianity. So can you just high level zoom out?
Ruth Everhart 6:01
Right, it's Protestant and it’s in Calvinist tradition. And it comes out of Holland. It's theology is really similar to Presbyterianism or basic Calvinism, but the ethic is kind of this ethnic tie that is what makes it very culturally conservative.
Seth Price 6:27
Ethnic, what do you mean? You mean ethnic as in, like…
Ruth Everhart 6:30
Ethnic as in we're all Dutch, as in how is it possible to have for, you know, four grandparents, two generations on the road, and you're still your ethnicity still 100% Dutch, because this is a product of having the Christian Schools and so this becomes where you meet your partner and get married. And so it's no accident that if you're in that world all the names are Dutch names. Everhart is my married name, my maiden name is Huizenga, which is actually a fairly common Dutch name.
But, um, so the theology is really similar to Presbyterianism. I mean, just this basic Calvinism, which to me, what the touchstone of Calvinism is, that God is sovereign overall, God created the world and rules the world. You know, that's the main touchstone but I think what's intriguing about that particular denomination is the way that it has wanted, you could use the word…the negative words would be insular, you know, very, very tightly woven.
Seth Price 7:52
Is it still that way?
Ruth Everhart 7:55
Well, it has changed. I mean, they do have women in ministry now, sometimes. But yeah, I definitely needed to burst out of the bonds of that kind of constraint.
Seth Price 8:10
I get that. Yeah, I grew up as an Independent Regular Baptist, which is conservative wrapped in a piggy blanket of more conservative and then baked at 400 degrees, and then nestled in Texas, inside of all of that culture. The book that you wrote, first off, my daughter, her favorite color is pink. And so for people in the video, like the book itself is pink. I can't tell you how often my seven year old who has a desk not unlike my own it's covered in marker and ink and tape and designs and patterns and there's no reason to even try to stop for any more. It's like trying to stop the ants from coming into the house when it rains like it's just deal with it. It's happening. She won't stop coloring on your book, because she says it's pretty.
Ruth Everhart 8:57
Oh, that’s really nice!
Seth Price 9:00
I guess. It's not nice when you want to read it, and you're like, Hey, don't draw in the book, you can color out of the book, don't draw in my books, I need to read these. So the book itself, though, brought up a conversation with her because she reads very well. And she said, Daddy, what is %metoo? And I said, well, because you're seven. Well….and that was the end of it.
So kind of I want … we'll get there in a minute, because I really struggle with this topic a lot. Just a lot. I think a lot of people do. So can you tell me a bit about why you wrote me to kind of the genesis of that? Why this book?
Ruth Everhart 9:38
Well, I wrote it because when the #metoo movement came along, I saw it as an incredible opportunity for the church to engage in a justice movement that was long overdue. Which was of saying that women have too often been victimized and have too often been treated as less than. And so loving Jesus as I do loving the church as I do it, I was excited to see the church kind of being the vanguard of pushing that forward and kind of leading the culture. And instead what happened was the church was the opposite. It was dragging up the rear. And we saw Hollywood and the arena of sports and other, you know, other more monolithic entities that are more attached to the bottom line, and therefore, a little more responsive to culture.
They were taking the leadership in terms of responding to the fact that women's voices were being heard, women who'd been victimized. And so I wrote the book and we called it the #Metoo Reckoning Facing the Church's Complicity in Sexual Abuse and Misconduct, to say that the church does have to face the ways in which it has dropped the ball and failed to be responsive to this justice movement, which is how I see it.
Seth Price 11:09
Yeah, that's not what I said to my daughter. What I ended up saying is “We'll talk about it later.” And she's since forgotten. I still, if she asked again today, I still don't honestly know how to talk to her about it. So can you…I want to go back to something…
Ruth Everhart 11:25
Why is that because it's so uncomfortable for you to realize that she's a girl and that someday she might be victimized?
Seth Price 11:30
No. No. Honestly, I'm terrified of that. Not so much for her. I feel like hopefully, if I'm doing my job well, and I talked about this a little bit, like a year ago, a year and a half ago with Carolyn Custis James a bit. We talked a bit about my daughter, and yeah, I'm terrified that I will be a bad version…I'm terrified that I will set the wrong example for what a man should be inadvertently by reinforcing patriarchy or the way that I talk with her mom. So you know, it’s just a constant balance because the world that we live in, I don't want the world that she lives in to be the same world that I grew up in, if that makes any sense at all.
Ruth Everhart 12:08
Amen! I mean isn’t that what keeps us going forward is that we're gonna leave it just a little better for our kids?
Seth Price 12:15
I’m not sure. I just watched a John MacArthur video talking about Black Lives Matter. And I don't think that everybody agrees with what I just said. And that's just an example that made me angry, literally before I came down here to talk to you is Luckily, it was a one minute video so I could put it away. No, mostly because of her age she doesn't seem to be concerned with sexual things. And so I don't want to force that conversation onto her not to preserve her innocence, but just because I don't want to complicate things that for right now, she doesn't seem all that interested in understanding. Though I do try to bring it up just to see what she'll say, you know, other things, and so far, she doesn't seem to care. And so that's why I said I don't understand how to explain the movement or the reason behind it. I think because of a lack of context on (for) her, and I hope I'm saying that well.
Ruth Everhart 13:09
I do think it's good to protect a girl or a boy's innocence. And it's a precious thing and it's time limited. So, you know, we keep that while we can. And she'll see the dynamics of the difference, the way girls and boys are treated if you talk about it that way and don't focus on the on the genitals, you know, that's not what it's about. It's about power dynamics. Sexual abuse is always the abuse of power. And that is why the church has such trouble with it because we're so steeped in the notion that it makes sense for men to have power in women to submit. That to see this clearly means to unmask something so kind of basic and that feels just so natural or normal for a lot of people because they've grown up with it that it’s tough.
Seth Price 14:08
The church, much like the Coronavirus, has been rudely awakened as of I honestly it was before 2017 you had many, many people. You okay?
Ruth Everhart 14:18
I think I hear my cat scratching. (Laughter)
Seth Price 14:21
That's fine. You talked about the transcripts earlier so I just did the one with Pete Enns over the weekend. Because my daughter was home actually with strep throat and while she was sleeping, I needed something to do and in there's both his cat and his dog. And I didn't edit them out, probably because it was too hard. And I literally put in parentheses insert cat angrily meowing here. (Laughter) I don't know that anybody will ever see it or say anything. But he is so snarky. I don't know how much you know about Pete Enns. He's so very snarky that it felt appropriate for the transcript to also have just a little bit of snark.
So going back the #Metoo movement scene. have been something that was bubbling for a long time because I grew up with purity culture. And I can vehemently remember the sermons that would come from my youth pastor growing up and youth group and that type of stuff. And the differences between the way I was treated in the way that and then I went to Liberty, and it was exacerbated there with the dress code standards and the double standards there. So it's not anything new. I'm curious how did we get there? So what do you feel like was that tipping point a few years ago, where people like enough is enough?
Ruth Everhart 15:31
Yeah. Well, the movement you can actually trace it back to Toronto Burke. And I say that talk about that in the introduction, but it really it really gained steam. After the Harvey Weinstein thing, that was when it's just really yeah. 2006 is when Toronto Burke created the hashtag. So to say that there was a whole like, like this 10 year kind of incubation process and Which women started to identify themselves other women as someone who had also experienced abuse me too. But I don't know if you remember in 2017 the fall it was October when the Harvey Weinstein's story broke. And it was such big news. And it was actually not even just the United States. I mean, it was like a global thing because of his position as a film producer, and the kind of impact he had. And so I think there was just kind of the moment was right for that thing to just kind of break open and that weekend when the the hashtag just took off. And then there were all these people who were so surprised that so many women that they knew for tweeting that same hashtag or putting it on social media somewhere on Facebook or Instagram or wherever they you know, we're active and something people telling their stories, some people just identifying themselves like kind of like just raising their hand in a way and saying I me too. And I think that there was just sheer volume. Just were the voices become so loud that you can't ignore it anymore.
Seth Price 17:20
I've wanted to ask you this question since I learned that you were a pastor. So the church, I don't think has wanted to talk about this because you have so many stories in this book, and then I've read bits and pieces of your prior book, that the church tends to sweep things under the rug, there we go, when it comes to cases of this, but also other things, you know, alcoholism and and all other kinds of vices that comes from leadership in the church. So I'm curious if you could, for those listening, kind of give in your experience, some of the ways that in the past the church, when things have been brought to their attention, as a whole, just tend To move things to the side, or try to dismiss an idea?
Ruth Everhart 18:05
Well, I just call it DIM thinking that's a handy acronym denying, ignoring, and minimizing. And there's this sense that that's something that's unseemly to talk about and it may be either wasn't as bad or just as the person is suggesting or let's just, let's just look at all look at the ways that Jesus redeemed it and move on. If you read you know pieces of what was actually my second book ruin to the memoir about when I was raped at gunpoint. I was told to move on from that, you know, within probably 24 hours of it happening. I hadn’t even begun to assimilate it into my understanding of who I was. And so there's a sense of just distaste, you know, like, I'm going to turn my head because I just can't look at that. You know, that does puzzled me because, you know, isn’t one of the reasons we have faith is that we have an understanding that that their sin and that evil is real and that evil exists. And yet when we kind of come face to face with something that's evil, there's this inability to just look it in the eye and say, Wow, that really you have experienced evil you have come face to face with something evil. Yeah. And this is what what God has to say about that.
Seth Price 19:42
As a pastor speaking so vocally about this now, writing on it, I won't say becoming more of a focal point or a figure in the movement, but definitely I think that's applicable. Have you received pushback from peers? Like hey, Ruth, stop it like you're making this uncomfortable? People are coming into my office. This is not acceptable. You're gonna need to settle down back there, or have you had any of that happen at all?
Ruth Everhart 20:07
I haven't heard that from other clergy. I've heard it from people in churches who don't like sermons that are on this topic.
(laughter from Seth)
(sarcastically) Somehow they just are upset when you preach about sexual assault texts that they've heard preached about before, right?
Seth Price 20:26
Yeah, well, there's a lot of texts. Um, yeah. So earlier, you said something, and it kind of was a trigger for me. So you said I grew up I was a “good girl”. And when I hear that, what I hear is a form of grooming. Or maybe I'm taking that too far. But can you break apart that concept of I was a good girl and then kind of the implications of that?
Ruth Everhart 20:53
Right. I mean, to be a good girl is to be modest, and to be kind and to be smiling and to not take up too much space. To not asked too many questions, to not impose on anyone, to not be vain. And I always thought, I could go off on what that means for women about vanity, but this sense of a good girl is sexually pure. And this is a very important part of her persona. And you know, you mentioned having grown up in purity culture, so you know what I'm talking about there. And that is put on girls to an extent that it's not put on boys. sexual purity.
Seth Price 21:46
Yeah, I can remember going to youth retreats, and we passed around flowers that by the time it was done of a 100 hands, it's not a flower, it's barely a stem. You know, and then that used as a metaphor, but it was always directed at whatever the ladies were, that happened to be there. It was never my fault ever. It's always your fault, Ruth, you knew better. I can't control myself! Which in hindsight makes me really mad because it trained me that I'm just an animal that I don't have to have any consequences for my actions. And then, if it was my daughter. is training her that she somehow bears a responsibility for her and I, and almost like she's becomes a scapegoat for all of my bad decisions. All of them!
Ruth Everhart 22:30
Right that women bear responsibility for what men do to them. And that's what sexual shame is. And that's I titled My book Ruined. I mean, so why could something that someone else did to me ruin me? And yet, there was no doubt in my mind that that's what had happened. And that's what started me on this quest, (it) turned out to be a lifelong quest about looking at what Jesus thinks of women, what the church thinks of women and why those two things are so different?
Seth Price 23:08
Yeah. Can you talk about those two a bit?
Ruth Everhart 23:12
You know, I love to talk about what Jesus says about women because we lose how extremely unusual he was in his relationships to women. Because to us, it's not that unusual for a man to talk to a woman he doesn't know. It was in that day, and that Jesus did it. And he did it frequently. And the people around him reacted in ways told us what he was saying was unusual, or the very fact that he was saying it. You know, you think of the Samaritan woman at the well, you think of the Syrophoenician woman who said to him about even who pushed back and said, even the dogs get the crumbs that fall from the table that that passage you think of all the time so he healed women and reached out in touch them, he treated women like they were of the same value and worth as men. And that was astounding.
I mean, it's still astounding, sometimes. Think of all the ways in which the news cycle for the past 48 hours, you look through it with the sign, you'll see all the ways in which women were not treated equally to men. And so the fact that 2000 years ago, Jesus in Palestine, was doing that, you know, in a Lamb that was still what was what was normative was with the Levitical purity laws, you know, that was astounding. And I say in the book. '“I don't want to recast Jesus in my own image as a modern day feminist”. But I kind of do I mean, because he, I think if we take him on his own merits in his own color, his way of interacting with women is so redemptive. It is what told me that I was not actually ruined. What convinced me that I was not actually ruined was walking into a church and hiring a clergy who happened to be a female clergy happen to be the first female clergy I ever heard preach, preaching, on no other text than Jesus healing the woman with a flow of blood, which is such a beautiful text because I mean, there's there's that tainted blood that that makes a woman impure. You know that all of the Levitical laws are based on…
Seth Price 25:52
…on being unclean
Ruth Everhart 25:54
On being unclean.
Seth Price 26:16
Yeah, if I remember right, and I think it was so she's not our one minister now but one of our ministers at our church. She's since moved on. Because if memory serves here in the next few days, she's having twins. Because she's something…nope…don't sign me up for that. Any part of that? But if I remember right, I think it got Yeah, yeah. her in her house the other fantastic anyway, I remember she preached a sermon. I think it was her and Lacey, if I'm wrong, email me and correct me. Often every time Jesus talks about a woman comes and the disciples are there, and they do something and everyone's like, Oh, my God, you can't…what are you doing? Oftentimes, Jesus would then correct me like y'all are with me all the time. I keep telling you and keep telling you and keep telling you and you don't get it. But she gets it. You see what she did? She's actually doing something and she understands. None of you even get what's happening right now. And you were with me all flippin day. And yesterday! Why do you still miss this? Just a beautiful sermon about just, you know, just it's just I remember walking away going, Oh, that's new.
Ruth Everhart 27:25
I’m glad that you heard that sermon. I'm so glad.
Seth Price 27:27
Yeah. And I can't remember all the stories in it.
Ruth Everhart 27:30
Well, and you know, like when Jesus came out of the tomb, and the first word on his lip, I mean, do you know in John, what, in the Gospel of John, the first word that the risen Lord says is a woman. I mean, and then you think that the woman he addressed couldn't even testify to the fact that she'd seen him and be believed, yet Jesus chose to appear to her. I mean, so yeah, I don't think there's any doubt that Jesus’ attitude towards women was highly unusual in his day. And it was redemptive. It was completely loving. And women had the same value as men-the same worth.
Seth Price 28:16
So again, I had alluded to earlier that I had asked some people for some of their questions. And a listener said he was curious, why do you feel like the church often feels the need to investigate internally first before they would ever even get authorities involved, especially with sexual misuse or misconduct in the church? That they'll take their sweet little time, investigate for a year, send you a platitude letter, which you actually reference in your book as well I think it's chapter four, I'm curious your thoughts on why they would just keep it all internal and never even possibly involve the proper authorities?
Ruth Everhart 28:54
Well, I think that what churches would say they're doing but what they're really doing would be two different things. They would say what they're doing is they're protecting the church's reputation. And they're dealing with it in house because they're going to make sure that they're not too quick to have the church be seen, you know, in the limelight or in the spotlight of the news media as having an allegation surface. So they're gonna protect the church from that, right. But what they're actually doing is enabling abusers to continue without having to face the consequences of their actions. And it's probably I think that what you're bringing up is the biggest problem right now in how churches are handling things things is in house investigations that go nowhere. And you know, since sexual abuse is always the abuse of power, usually the people who are doing the abuse or people in power, and people in power don't like to give up their power. And the other dynamics of the churches sometimes don't pay enough attention to is the fact that they love their people in power. I mean, the preacher that maybe has been dear to them, now to be accused of something, they're in no hurry to see that person fall off the pedestal. It's painful. So they might say that they're protecting the church's reputation, but they're really protecting themselves from uncovering something that's really painful, or they're protecting themselves from having the outside world see that maybe the church is not so pure and so crystal clean, and that's its justice full of misconduct as other places are.
Seth Price 31:02
I want to rephrase what I'm hearing you say is, as a person going to my church, if it came up in my church tomorrow, you're saying the overall congregation is more willing to either not listen or just be complacent because it's really comfortable to sit in the third row pew, this is where I sit, this is my spot, and I don't need you to rock the boat, I'd rather just come in for an hour or two a week, and get ministered to, but I don't really want to actually live with you and be in a relationship with you. Because if I did that, I'd have to possibly interact with people and things that are uncomfortable?
Ruth Everhart 31:34
Right, I'd love to look straight on at that ugly thing that's painful that I want you to move on from just so I don't have to look at it.
Seth Price 31:45
So as a minister, what does that say about our churches, as a whole of many denominations. And I have to think that this isn't just a thing in Christian churches. It has to be a thing in multiple maybe it's not maybe you know better than I do that other other faiths, I assume have similar issue or no?
Ruth Everhart 32:06
I'm not an authority on that can't really speak to misconduct and other places, although we certainly see it in all walks of life.
Seth Price 32:15
I think it's easy to understand how the church got to where we're at now. But how is a good way forward? As someone in the clergy, we're like, Alright, this we have this has to change. And I referenced that earlier with my daughter, like, I don't want the universe that she lives in 40 years from now to look anything like this one in any way. Well, it may be in some shapes and forms but not in this instance. So what are some instances maybe that you've seen as you've preached and you've talked with people and you're speaking on it, that you've seen churches, Institute, things that work well of here's what we're going to change, here's why it's going to work. Here's how it's going to be painful. Everybody's going to get upset. And that's healthy, because that's how we deal with trauma communally as a church, what are some ways that you've seen versus doing it well, and then maybe some things that are anything that you would change?
Ruth Everhart 33:04
Right? Well, so dealing with sexual abuse is basically falls into two camps. One is prevention, and one is response. And I see that we're making progress, especially in the issue of prevention. And, you know, it's become really normative to have child protection policies of some kind or safe church protection policies where people are trained in terms of not being alone with a child or of having, you know, windows in the doors or having the door open. And, you know, just like these really basic things. And so there is an awareness that we have to protect vulnerable people. So I think that's the…and I see those happening. Like if almost any major domination, you go on their website, you can see resources to help churches, you know, churches don't have to reinvent the wheel to implement these kinds of things. So that's like the first crack of the door opening to say, well, at least there's this awareness that we have to protect vulnerable people and that there could be a predator here in our, in our midst. There could be a wolf among the sheep here. And that's a huge deal for some churches.
And now more and more churches are doing a boundary training, which is where you take it, I think a step farther and you look at how adults interact with teenagers, how adults interact with other adults, what are the power differentials and how do we safeguard those relationships so those are healthy and so that people are safe. I mean, you think of what you bring to a church you bring your spiritual self right. So, wounding in a church context, is not just the wounding of the physical body, but the also the spiritual body.
And this is why it's so especially damaging sexual abuse in churches is also spiritual abuse. And that's even before people layer on top of it, the fact that many people who are engaged in this kind of predatory behavior actually use Scripture and twist it as a way to manipulate their people. So this is very, very damning, and very, very damaging.
So, the very first way to start to arm yourself against that is to talk about power. And it talks about who has it and who doesn't, and how do we maintain boundaries. And that's all in the issue of prevention, and which is where we're doing a little better.
In terms of response there's still a huge resistance to investigating people and taking them out of their ministry positions when when they need to be removed.
Seth Price 36:05
The other question I had on that is, so someone like myself where I, so just a little bit more about me than you probably want to know, I genuinely struggle with emotions. I'm a logic based person. That's probably why I like banking. I've been called, like, I got that I lack empathy, which I don't think is actually true. I just don't know how to really often express emotion. I didn't cry when my wife walked down the aisle. I didn't cry when my kids were born. And I know a lot of people hear that like, Oh, my gosh, you're heartless. And that doesn't take away anything from those moments. They're fantastic. But you know what I mean? Like, so for me when I want to try to have this conversation with someone or use a voice where I'm like, hey, I'd like to encourage you in this, I find that I often have no idea how to start that conversation. So for someone like myself listening, where they're like, alright, I'm hearing all this, because there'll be you know, 10s of thousands of people that will listen and be like, yeah, I probably should say something or be a safe place oto come to? or scream with a microphone like, Hey, I know this is happening and this is not acceptable anymore. This has got today's the last day that it's ever going to happen. How would you advise someone like myself to go, Yeah, here's how you begin that conversation?
Ruth Everhart 37:15
Well, maybe a person such as yourself, it's, you know, make no apology for the fact that you operate out of your intellect more than out of your emotions, because we need that as well. In the church, we often want to kind of say there there and pat somebody and and think that that's walking with them and maybe offer a prayer or something and say, well we'll keep you in our prayers; and that’s all well and good. But the other piece that needs to be done is the justice piece, and that is saying, Can I walk with you as you bring charges against the person who abused you. Do you need help in doing that can have you made a police report? Can I help you make a police report? Can I go with you to have a rape kit done? Um, I mean, these are things we're not being overly emotional, you can see what actually be helpful. If you were the person right there in the moment. And if you're the person hearing about it later, there's still that kind of lens you can bring to it to say, what has to happen here for justice to occur?
Seth Price 38:36
I feel like justice is a word especially recently with all of the protests that are happening in our country that has been taken and oftentimes twisted for political means. So when you say justice, specifically as it relates to the #metoo movement, or just really, Justice overall, as it relates to our faith what are you saying?
Ruth Everhart 38:54
I mean, I'm using it actually in its political sense where I completely believe that The charges should be brought either in a civil court or a church court. And that sexual assault is not only a sin, but it's also a crime. And we shouldn't be hesitant to…a victim, a victim should not hesitate to bring charges against her abuser. And the thing is that there is very difficult to do that. And this is why the role of advocacy is so important. And this is why I was so excited about the church being involved in me too, because I saw it as a way for us as church people to advocate for victims. And I see us as being very hesitant to do that, because of all these various reasons that we've been discussing. And I see that our sense of justice is often this kind of nebulous. Like we'll get when the kingdom comes, and that's what we should wait for. But I don't see that that's appropriate.
Seth Price 40:07
Yeah. Yeah, I fully agree. There's a book that I read a few years ago about prayer, which talks about not praying in a petitionary way, not that you can't play that way. But there are better ways to pray in which you partner with God to do something as opposed to I prayed; I did what I was supposed to do. I prayed. So now it's dinnertime moving on, because I did my thing. The rest is on God, which I think is so flippant of our faith. So I alluded to it a minute ago, is the question I've been asking everyone and, and I also want to say something else. So for those listening, I've already said a few minutes ago that I struggle with emotion. So I actually have your other book that you referenced a minute ago, I had to stop reading it. That's why I've only read part parts of it because I just I was like, I'm done. I can't read this. Like I don't want to if that makes any sense. I just I'm not comfortable. The same thing with all the stories laced throughout this book, which is why I haven't intentionally skirted around the topics in the best way that I can, because I really struggle with it.
But for those listening, please pick up Ruth’s book because it is one of the best books I've read all year, but also one of the hardest books for me to talk about because oftentimes people will ask me, What are you reading? And I will talk all about, you know, this one on the Talmud, this one on the Torah, this one on incarceration, or this one on Ruth or this one on whatever, and I've really struggled to adequately explain your book. So for those listening, please, please listen to me and buy the darn thing.
However, the question that I've been asking everyone, before before we close is when you say the word God; Ruth, or the divine or whatever word you want to try to wrap around that. What are you actually trying to say to someone? So say a 20 year old walked up to you at college, and they're like, Hey, what do you mean? What would you try to say to that?
Ruth Everhart 41:56
If they said to me, what is God? What is that? I would say that it is the creative and loving force that undergirds everything that is ever will be.
Seth Price 42:07
I like it a lot. Ruth, where can people get the book interact with this but more importantly interact with the movement to continue to and you talked about it earlier, we're always limping behind as a church in our culture, culture seems to drag us along about you can't treat people this way. And then the church begrudgingly goes as opposed to maybe if we listen to the spirit, we would instead be pulling the world with us like yeah, guys, we can't do this that we should be better. Where should people go to kind of interact with what you're doing the book and then those type of topics there?
Ruth Everhart 42:39
I love it when I hear about people in churches reading this book in small groups, you know, in an adult class or their leadership board or something to kind of be prepared for whatever might come in terms of allegations of abuse, and I've heard from people. Can you believe there's 10 chapters I just spoke with a church, they spent 10 weeks on the book. And they found so much to discuss just chapter by chapter because each chapter has a Bible story that I deal with really in depth. I just like to mention that because sometimes people don't realize how much scriptural material there is in this book.
Seth Price 43:20
There's a lot, the one I wrestled with the most is the parable of the widow. I kept coming back to that one over and over and over again. At first I was like, where are you going with this? And then at the end, I was like, I start over, and then come back and start over. It took a couple times. So actually, I read it a little bit earlier today as well.
Ruth Everhart 43:37
Well, you know, you were mentioning about how you feel like we don't get off the hook by saying, “Oh, well, we prayed about it”. And it's so interesting because Luke I mean, that's that's that's actually, you know, the the prelude to that parable says, And then Jesus told, told the parable that they should pray always. And I don't think actually that that's what the parable is about. But it's like even Luke and Luke wrote it down, was trying to get away from what Jesus was really saying because it was untenable. So I mean, it's very a challenging little three sentences. I love that I love that parable. Um, I actually commissioned a piece of artwork about that parable and yeah, and if you want when you can just you can just ask me from it, and you can order it from Benjamin Wildflowers website. Yeah, yeah, that's on my website. Read about that. So where people can find me is I have my website is rutheverhart.com. And I'm on Facebook and on Twitter, and Instagram. And so you can find me on those places and you can contact me through my website very easily. I hear from people through there a lot or send me a message somehow. And because of the pandemic shutting down, all my speaking engagements I'm doing more webinars and so on like this. And, I can help set you up with books.
Seth Price 45:13
Good. Yeah I am. I listened to a different guy on a different podcast a few days ago. He's like, Yeah, I just lost like three months of income and weekend and I was like, Well, okay, well, what a do we do now?
Ruth Everhart 45:25
You know, it's true, trivial compared to what some people are. Yeah, experiencing. But I do have put it this way. A couple hundred books I didn't expect to have on hand…
Seth Price 45:36
That works.
Seth Price 45:57
The way that we've handled sexuality in the church sexuality about homosexuality and gender and gender roles and patriarchy, sexual purity, all of it is just unacceptable. Sweeping things under the rug is unacceptable. Telling people that it's someone else's fault is unacceptable scapegoating other people, as if the bad choices that were inflicted upon them was somehow their fault. And they did it wrong. That's just bad theology, and that's not God. And I would encourage you pick up Ruth's book, it is laced with stories, stories, honestly, that I still struggle with.
But I sent the book actually out to the patron supporters that are in the book section there. And I actually got a comment from one of them saying “looks like I have some light reading.” I want to challenge everybody listening, grab a copy of his book, I think it's on sale. And then she mentioned just shoot her an email. I'm sure she would figure out a way to get you one. It needs to be talked about and it needs to constantly be talking about like so many other things. And I know that it's uncomfortable and it's hard. And that's okay because it matters.
This show is impossible without the support of patrons. And so I wanted to welcome the newest member of the Patreon community, Sean, thank you so much to you and to the countless others like you that make this show an actual possibility. Without you, it cannot function in this show cannot be a thing. And so if you get anything out of this free podcast, consider sharing it with friends and family.
Follow the show on Facebook and Twitter. If you are able, in the environment that we're in, throw a couple bucks a month towards the show. Together each and every single one of you combined really makes the show sustainable. I'm aware of how important money is and I thank you for trusting me with a little bit of it. So thank you very much again to Ruth for coming on the show and to Heath McNease for your music mixed into this show. I can't wait to talk to you again. Be blessed everybody and be safe.