Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Jonathan Walton 0:00
Look at the book of Acts, particularly Acts 1-7, and take notes of what the disciples did. And then say, does my Christianity look like this? If it doesn't (then) how can it begin to look like this? When was the last time I baptize somebody? Now I know folks might get upset, right? But when was the last time I baptize somebody? When was the last time I cast demons out of somebody? When was the last time I prayed for healing for someone? When was the last time I testified at work to the goodness of God? When was the last time…like if we're not doing those things? What are we doing? And so I think I like to say, if we ran our personal lives in our small groups or beta groups or life groups or cell groups, whatever you want to call them through an Acts filter, would we come out looking like followers of Jesus from the Scripture? If we're not, then we might want to reconsider the kind of trees that we are that we bear any fruit.
Seth Price 1:29
Welcome to the year of our Lord Jesus Christ 2019 Can I Say This At Church is still hear because churches are still here and I still have things that I want to say and you have things that hopefully you want to say and I need you to tell me what those things are. (If) There's anything any topic, anything that you would like to hear covered, a conversation that you would love to hear a guest that you would love to hear, please shoot me an email, go to the website CanISayThisAtChurch.com and hit the leave feedback button there and get in touch with me. Let me know who those people are, what you want to hear why you want to hear it, shoot, if you have something to say, maybe you'll come on. Let's do this together.
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So you probably over the course of the holidays, hopefully, we're able to avoid the arguments that we see on Facebook, and on Twitter, and online and on the news, and on MSNBC and Fox News about things like you know, “America is a Christian nation” and “all people are created equal”, “And we're the land of the free and the home of the brave”, and “we're the best thing happening since sliced bread” and “we invented the Bible”, which that's, that's a bit hyperbolic, but you get where I'm going with that none of that's true. There's so much of our history, specifically the history of America, and how the church is interwoven. The part that religion and politics have played, as those two have become embedded together and synonymous sometimes with each other. And by the way, that's not an attack on the GOP. And it's not an attack on the Democrats either both sides are equally culpable.
And so Jonathan Walton has written a book called 12 Lies That Hold America captive. And so I had him come on, and we discuss that a bit. I do want to give you a little bit of warning, because life is the way that it is. This was recorded with Jonathan sitting in a Starbucks. And so you're going to hear people scraping food, and a little bit of doors opening and closing. And to be honest, the content is good enough that that doesn't matter. And you'll find that about five minutes and you'll forget that those people are even there.
I'm honestly glad that other people sitting did hear him talking the way that he was talking about the church and really things that matter. And so I really hope that you love this episode. I really hope that you'll get this book. I believe that it has the ability to open your eyes, I know it certainly opened my eyes. I had to read it in small chunks because I found myself getting infuriated. Not because I didn't know things, but because I didn't know that I didn't know things. And I've since then gone off the rabbit hole that with American history and I've loved every minute of it. I still get upset often about it, but that's okay. That is life. And so here we go 12 Lies That Hold America Captive, and most importantly, the truth that sets us free with Jonathan Walton.
Seth Price 4:50
Jonathan Walton. So, first off, man, welcome to the show. Thank you for making time in the middle of Pennsylvania. And for those listening you're going to see, or you're going to hear…you won't see anybody, you're gonna hear random people in the back maybe ordering an espresso or whatever they need at Starbucks a nice scone, but either way, so bear with a little bit of background noise but Jonathan, man, thank you so much for coming on.
Jonathan Walton 5:15
Absolutely man. I'm glad I could be a part of this podcast, I enjoy it, and I’m really glad I’ve been able to listen to the last few episodes.
Seth Price 5:25
Really?
Jonathan Walton 5:26
Yeah, probably listened to about 10 episodes so far. I really like the Brueggeman episode. I really like the Kathy Khang episode. I really liked another episode that you did, my favorite one by far, Brian McLaren.
Seth Price 5:40
Brian, is fantastic.
Jonathan Walton 5:42
That one is great. Anyway, people need to listen to your podcast.
Seth Price 5:48
I agree! Before we get into the topic at hand of your book that it's out in January, right?
Jonathan Walton 5:55
Hmm, yeah, well, people could get it before Christmas actually really. If they Pre-ordered IV Press, they get it the second week of December.
Seth Price 6:04
Nice.
So tell me a bit about yourself. So I know we talked about it a little bit by email. But what's kind of your upbringing? I know you're from South Central Virginia, kind of kind of south of Richmond. And when I read a little bit of where you're from us, I googled it, like, I know, right where that is. I didn't know the name where it was until I saw where it was geographically. And I was like, okay, but what is a little bit of you man?
Jonathan Walton 6:29
I was born in Alexandria, actually, before I can, you know, benefit from some of the best schools in the United States and stuff like that we moved back to where my mom grew up, which is Broadnax, Virginia. So when I was one, I don’t know how old our house is because same age, you know, so we moved when I was going back to grad next town, probably as you know, 327 people at the highest and yeah, that's where I was wrong. From never left Southern Virginia till I came to Columbia to visit and change, change everything. You know to go from rural like the epitome of rural America, where nothing is there in New York City that's supposedly the center of everything. Yeah, that's kind of like my life.
Seth Price 7:22
Yeah. So what was that…what was growing up…were you Christian growing up?
Jonathan Walton 7:30
The answer that question changes in my learn about Jesus.
Seth Price 7:35
Okay, we'll say quote, “Christian”
Jonathan Walton 7:39
So Ruby Bridges talks about “black folk religion”, which I think has elements of Christianity in it, and I think has elements of Jesus in it. And there are people who grew up like I grew up going to church every Sunday and Wednesday and cleaning the church and going through Revival and all that stuff. Doing lots of Christian things, but never actually participating in the redemptive God. And so I would say I was until I had an encounter with God. I had a motorcycle accident, I was 16 why I didn't get injured. I jumped the intersection or Harley Davidson in Virginia…
Seth Price 8:20
That was on purpose or that was on accident?
Jonathan Walton 8:23
Definitely not on purpose. And then I think I realized, oh, like, God is trying to tell me something. Now, I still was looking at porn and still running after women and still doing all the things that I thought were perfectly fine and do me a Christian. But I knew that Jesus wanted to say something. So I started writing and writing poetry really became interacting with God and songs. And so that really became how I interacted with Him. But I wouldn't say I had a relationship with Jesus where I was submitted to Him as Lord and Savior in that way until I was 19 in Intervarsity at Columbia.
Seth Price 9:03
What was the big shift there? So was it just being outside of your comfort zone and having to find something else or was it like, here we go? Because I know for me, I left Southwest Texas and went to Liberty and really the only culture shock for me was everything isn't called “Coke” here. And you know, I grew up and I'll have a coke and they ask you what kind…I got a little pissed the first time that I say can I have a coke and didn't realize and then they brought me a Coke and I don't like Coke. And so what was it? Was it just culture shock or was it just a different church; what was the change?
Jonathan Walton 9:38
Well, I think that change is that I actually had to rely on God as opposed to how talented I was or anything like that. So I don't remember what chapter this is in the book because it's long, but I talked about like how I started out at Columbia and was basically managing my stress and anxiety with porn, over eating, and working out; those three things. I feel guilty about watching porn so I stop and then I overeat because like, that's what I did is stress eat, and I feel guilty about that and I go work out and I get injured, right. So this is like, a terrible cycle there. And long story short ended up having an encounter with God where I took a job that was, shouldn't have taken it. They offered me money to do it, an apartment in Brooklyn, like that whole deal and essentially went home one day, and my apartment was locked, because the apartment had been repossessed.
And then I found out that the money that the guy had paid me those checks had bounced. So I had paid bills from my mom and bought clothes for my job and all of a sudden I had no money in the City. And I want to say that I went to Jesus but I didn't. I went to not Bible gateway but like pornhub.com right. And obviously like after gratifying yourself in that way, that doesn't solve any problems it just creates another problem and you feel terrible. And so I was like, God, I don't want to do this anymore. I called my intervarsity staff worker at the time and just told him I was like, Yo, man, like, I'm pretending like I've been doing this church thing because I was the talented kid. And when you're talented in a black church, you get put up front, it doesn't really matter what your life is like with Jesus, and that facade kind of fell away. And I was finally able to see and hear that Jesus loved me, absent of my efforts for him, my performance for him. He didn't want an employee, or a soldier, or a worker, but he wanted his child. That was the first time I'd ever been invited into that. Yeah, so that's when I would say like, me, and Jesus actually came together.
Seth Price 11:49
Yeah, that's awesome. And can I say that's rare that someone will openly say all that, specifically the pornography. I feel like a lot of people still sweep that under the rug and we're all lying. Yeah, I forget what the song is one of my favorite artists is Propaganda and he's got a song of that I forget what it is, but it basically talks to you know, this, this, that and the other. “Forgive me, I'm lying. I'm still lying like I'm, yeah, I'm lying, and so are you.”
Jonathan Walton 12:25
Prop is great man!
Seth Price 12:26
I love ya. I love this stuff. Um, so the book that you wrote 12 Lies That Hold America Captive. That title is controversial just in and of itself, at least to the circles that I feel like, stay on the outside fringes of this show and or Central Virginia where I am now or Texas where I'm from, and you begin your book and I find it coincidence. I didn't realize that we would be talking on election night or the midterm elections (of 2018) but you've been your book with just you just hope and, and hope for the future and hope for the church and hope for America to do things better, because Barack Obama was elected and I would like you to kind of roll through some of that ending up at what you call WAFR or White America Folk Religion, which now that you talked about black folk religion. I'm not familiar with that either.
But I shared that acronym with a friend of mine who lives in Charlottesville. And he's like, yes, somebody gets it. Here we go. Somebody gets it! So talk to me a bit about that hope and why and then what destroyed or not destroyed, but what changed?
Jonathan Walton 13:46
Well, so I think there's a two that Krista Tippett On Being she did a podcast of Ruby Bridges and another civil rights leader, and they brought up this concept of black folk religion. I still have work to do within myself to figure out what the tenets of black folk religion, because that I think would involve me actually diving into my genogram. Like, what did my family worship? What did that mean in 1619? You know, like over the last 400 years, what were we being invited into, but not just invited into the what we tried to make into our own version of gospel when it was illegal for us to read, it was under white supervision, and it's not an ethnic Pacific church, but a racially segregated church where the gospel grows in a different way.
RAnd so I still have some work to do around that. I think what I began to understand more, though, is not necessarily what I gave up, but what I was invited into, which is White American Folk Religion. Mm hmm. I remember getting an email from one of the editors and he said, you know, where's this term come from? Where'd you get it? Like who came up with it like and try to substantiate Well, no, I made it up because I see it at work in my own life. And so if we think about a race, class, gender based hierarchy, and the worship of militarism, racism; and Martin Luther King talked about this, and Rich Villodas talked and added another one-where we have materialism, racism, militarism, and if you add sexuality, that's what you get before us today. Like, if we take and literally analyze the invitation of the “people who framed the Constitution” of this nation, and if we take the same idea of who is in the room? Who is this for? What was the author's intent? Who's impacted? You kind of have two options.
We could take the hopeful stance and say like, “well, maybe they were writing with the intention of one day including everyone and all these aspirational goals”. Or you could take the stance of like, integrity like how did they actually live their lives? Because they weren't people absence of power these were people who had power; so what did they do with it even with the goals and aspirations that they had? Because these weren't people who couldn't exact their will upon the world. These are people who were enacting their will upon the world. So what did they will the world look like?
And so I think that first chapter really draws a picture of like, I came (to college), I graduated Barak Obama became President, and I had a daughter when Donald Trump got elected, and the way that that completely changed and what did it mean for me to be black in America? What does it mean for me not to be black in the Kingdom of God? Because race doesn't exist in heaven. So there's no black people or white people in heaven there is no ethnos…I don't know who my people are.
So God, what does that mean for me hang out in this now and not yet place. I must need to be discipled out of something so that I can actually know what it's like to be loved by you in the fullness of who I am, even though I don't know what that ethnic identity is, because it was taken from somewhere a while back. And so I think, coming up with a term for what I believe the idol that I was invited into, not just me, but all people in America are being invited into because the vision that's passed by Jefferson and Hamilton and all these people is literally another guy. It's literally another thing. It's literally another way of life. Because if faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen'; we will never see the American Dream yet we believe in it all the time.
Seth Price 17:39
We do not have time to talk about all 12 lies, and I'm not I still haven't decided which two or three I really want to hone in on but I will I will tell everyone listening all 12 lies literally…so something Jonathan, I couldn't do. I wasn't able to. Like I've read other books and I've been able to read it in like a day day and a half sometimes like like Kathy, you talked about Kathy Khang earlier, like I read that book in two hours. It was beautiful, right? It was hard. And it was it was just amazing.
But other books like I literally have to sit with because either pissed me off or I'm not ready for that like the Eternal Current was one Alexander Shaia’s stuff was one. Austin Fischers Faith in the Shadows. Like, I just had to read it and then I need to back away for a minute. And in each of these lies I was that way.
So what I wasn't expecting being with your background and a little bit I knew about you from the Google is I wasn't expecting to get as much history as I got in it. But I really appreciated that and I like the way that you weaved in the context of both Native Americans as well as anyone else that doesn't happen to be white. Because I feel like…like the Dawes Act I'd never heard of that. I remember I'm pretty sure I put it on Facebook and tagged you to it like I was actually pissed that I'd never heard of the Dawes Act until I read about it in your book. And then I google it and the more that I google and I go down a little rabbit hole, I'm just so angry, like, just so angry.
And so as people are reading this, before we dive into some of these lies, what do I do with that anger? Because sometimes I'm still angry, like I read a little bit tonight, specifically, what you were just referencing with the different races, creeds, genders, and the different view from Revelation on this is who's in the kingdom of God. And here's how we categorize people and we're doing it wrong you and I right now, here's how we should do it. But I don't know how to sit with that anger. Like, just don't know how to sit with it.
Jonathan Walton 19:40
Yeah, so I wish that I had written the book that I'm writing now before I wrote this. What I'm working on right now is the emotionally healthy activist. Taking a lot of Pete Scazzero’s emotionally healthy leader stuff, and with his blessing, like creating a how do we deal with this using the skills that he brings up like incarnational listening, like writing ourselves in the Scripture, like entering into pain and suffering with Jesus at the center and make that a systemic thing, not just a personal or relational thing. We're actually going to have a course for eight weeks gonna be live stream in March and April, specifically, because people don't know what to do when they are pissed off.
Seth Price 20:20
Yeah, yeah. So I take it I'm not the only one that said that then?
Jonathan Walton 20:24
No, no. And I mean, people are going to be angry tonight. Right? Whatever happens, and I think there's, um, there's a couple things that are helpful. One is that anger is a good thing. Like our emotions are not bad. Like they are signals for what God is doing and like what we're passionate about. So being angry is okay. I was told the anger was bad, so I stopped it. But if we cut off, like we can't bifurcate our hearts, so if we don't allow ourselves to be angry, we don't actually allow ourselves to experience joy. sorrow, emotional spectrum becomes really, really short which does doesn't allow us to enter into the holy discontent of God. So I think that the anger that we're being invited into, it will lead to holy discontent. So there's a constructive dissonance that happens when we get angry if we bring it to God.
Seth Price 21:18
So break that down a bit. When you say holy discontent. What is that? What does that mean?
Jonathan Walton 21:25
Yes, so holy discontent would be…the way that we define it, there's lots of definitions out there, but specifically Intervarsity in New York and New Jersey, you have a holy discontent initiative, where we say like, what does it look like to enter into the lament of the world and the longing for the Kingdom? So if you're going to omit you actually have to allow yourself to be uncomfortable, because there is a direct line between not just spiritual maturity and emotional health. But there's also direct lines between our level of holy discontent and our emotional health. Because if we can't get angry you cannot lament. Right, if we're not willing to engage with the suffering and the pain and the struggle, it can't moment, and if we don't know how terrible the world is, and how terrible brokenness and violence and sinfulness is, then we don't actually know or can enter into how beautiful, the gospel, that's how wonderful redemption is how amazing the prospect of renewal of all things, just by virtue of the will God and are entering into that because of Jesus. We get the full breadth of lamenting the suffering in the world, and longing for his kingdom to come in full. And we get this beautiful dissonance that I think is captured in the cross where there is deep brokenness, that the exact same time, the transformative power happening simultaneously. And that's what's happening when we get angry. We're actually entering into the frustrating part of that and that anger, I think we can turn into constructive dissonance that drives us to seek justice in a way that makes space for the pain of people that we're going to enter it with.
Seth Price 22:59
If you were to concisely Tell me what White American Folk Religion is, and by concisely like, you know, the Baptist would have the Baptist Faith and Message or the Evangelical Covenant Church would say this or the Catholics would say this, the Jesuits would say that like, what is if we're going to make it as you kind of you kind of make it its own denomination in the book of lumping. Yes, this type of Protestantism is not separate. It's it's this it doesn't really matter what brand you put on top of it. Pepsi, Pepsi is Pepsi doesn't really matter what label we put on it. So if you were to concisely put it down what is white America folk religion in general?
Jonathan Walton 23:39
Out of Ephesians 2, we talk about the spirit of the age and the prince of the power of the air. So this is a spiritual thing, right? So we have white, which is a race, class, gender based hierarchy. Right, white American, it's tied to a place it's tied to locality, geography, and then folk basically being like, we are taking a genuine faith and co-opting it in such a way that it can pass as the faith itself even though it's been changed drastically. And then religion is a certain set of agreed upon practices that everyone involved says this is this is what it means to be a good boy. Right and the way that that will play out it's like there are lots of people, whatever your skin color that are pursuing White American Folk Religion. When we say I am going to pursue life, liberty, and happiness, it is impossible to pursue life liberty and happiness and take up your cross deny yourself and follow Jesus. They are completely antithetical to each other.
Seth Price 25:31
Let's get into that then because pursuit of life liberty and well, the Declaration of Independence. Basically what you're calling out in line one the fact that you know America is a Christian nation and you'll see it you'll see it tonight depending on who wins and whatever the state's you know, Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson's will come out or the you know, Jerry Falwell, Jr. will come out and why is that a lie? Let me posture this way. I'm going to take the stance that you're wrong. So you tell me why don't you tell me why it's a lie? I don't want us to agree with each other all night. So why are Why am I not part of a Christian nation or why is America not one?
Jonathan Walton 26:12
Yeah. So I think the most common argument is to say, well look at how much sin we've committed as a as a quote unquote, nation, right. But I actually think that the where it came alive for me is actually, at the end of the Gospel of Matthew and the beginning of the book of Acts, when Peter is repeatedly looking for a political solution to an existential crisis, right? He is repeatedly looking for like the overthrow of the Roman government, so that like God's kingdom can come as God and God is actually about something very different. So yes, the United States is not a Christian nation, because there's nothing in line with the formation of that nation that would reflect the Kingdom of God. But I think the real answer lies in the Great Commission where we're to go forward, and make disciples cast out demons, heal the sick and baptize people and name the Father, Son, the Holy Spirit, making disciples of all people. And when that comes, that solution is Kingdom and not country. So, yes, sin, all that stuff. But the rule and reign of Jesus does not look like a democracy. It does not look like a military, it does not look like a physical state that we can all live in and claim citizenship (of) because of our race class or where we were born like it's an invitation into the grace of God and is limitless in its locale. So I think the book of Acts actually is the best apologetic for why the United States not a Christian nation because that's not actually how God set up at all.
Seth Price 27:52
Right. Should we should we strive to be a Christian nation like should that be something that we aspire too>
Jonathan Walton 28:00
I think that we need reflect the kingdom of God as best as we possibly can, so that we can point to the risen Savior is king. I think absolutely, we should do that. I don't think though that our goal or intention should be to legislate our morality because it just doesn't work like that. Yeah, it'd be nice, but it doesn't work. We have the Jesuits that tried that with native people. It didn't go over so well.
Seth Price 28:35
There's a chapter in your book and I don't know which lie it was or which chapter it was attached to but you were talking about the guy that started the Carlisle School
Jonathan Walton 28:46
Kill the Indian save the man.
Seth Price 28:48
Yeah, yeah, and I spoke about that a bit with Mark Charles and he was talking a bit about that.
Jonathan Walton 28:54
He…Wooooo! Mark Charles
Seth Price 28:56
His knowledge is something else.
Jonathan Walton 29:00
That's lie three: the melting pot.
Seth Price 29:02
Yeah, well, so the next question that would logically flow is, specifically because right now a caravan is on its way, and by the time this episode airs, it will have already come and everybody will have already continued to bicker. But that won't stop the next time that people come for asylum. And so like today, you know, you'll hear people saying, “well, we should accept immigrants because we're all immigrants”. And we should, you know, use or you'll hear people say, “Well, yeah, but Mexico offered them asylum. So they should just stop there” too, which I'd ask, Well, then, if it's good enough for Mexico, how come we're not…I thought we were exceptional, like, we're gonna let Mexico do this better than we do?
But either way, neither one of those are good arguments. And so people always say America was founded as a country of immigrants. And we're this amalgam of whatever’dness and that's what binds us together. But you say in your book, and I hope it's fine for me to quote it. That, when we do that when we say that we're all immigrants, that it is
an edited retelling of a narrative in a way that affirms the powerful and assimilates, the powerless into a lower position in the power structure.
And then you say,
for example, Christian boarding schools trying to crush out native identities. And that this was done by physically and culturally separating Native children from their elders, and basically just breaking them away from any and all culture.
And so what are you trying to say there? Because I hear you saying, you know, you can't say you're an immigrant and then strip someone of whatever makes them one.
What are you trying to say there? Cause I hear you saying you can’t say that we are a nation of immigrants and then strip them of what makes them one.
Jonathan Walton 30:40
Yes. So I think, what if we go back a little bit when we say we're all immigrants, I think what we're actually trying to do is avoid the idea that anyone is oppressed, and anyone is the oppressor. So if we're all immigrants we are all invited to become this new place. And that goes all the way back to when Europeans, the missionaries, the military, and the merchants, all came to America and how they saw this land. Some of them saw this land as the place where they could live out a pure Europe, we've messed up in Europe, we get to start over, right? That was one group of people.
And other people saw it as God's promised land where we could actually become the people of God in a way that, you know, the Jesuits or the Puritans or pick that group of people were what was actually happening though was they were trying to remake the land of America, and its people that they discovered, in the image of Europe. Which literally takes on the, you know, a twisting of Genesis 1:27, where instead of encountering people who are made the image of God, they tried to remake the people in the image of Europe, right.
And so we see that when we say we're all immigrants like the woman next door to me, she's Czechoslovakian and Polish. Her ancestors when they came to America, what happened was her name was changed, right. If I change your name and disconnect you from your lineage, you can't find your people anymore so now you're in American. When a Chinese student comes to the United States, and they said, Well, no, like, I'm not going to learn your name, your name is now Peggy or your name is “pick the thing” like my daughter is Chinese. And so when I look at her name, I can actually connect her to every generation before her because of 100 Line Chinese poem that each generation has. But if I cut that off and say, we're all immigrants, then I'm actually disconnecting you from where you come from.
So I think what happens in the language is that one, the suggestion that we're all immigrants, assumes that we all came here voluntarily as opposed to like my people as slaves, or some people as those who've been religiously persecuted, or some natives, or those from Mexico who the border simply shifted over them and they became American. And so there's, I think what happens is when we say we're all immigrants, what we're doing is trying to dismiss the fact that we have been oppressed because honestly, we don't want to talk about my mom didn't want to talk about how her birth certificate says Negro on it. Right, like, we don't like…my grandmother and I talked about this in the book she does not want to talk about like, what burning flesh that smells like and what it sounds like you don't want to tell the stories, right?
And so it's a beautiful lie and a wonderful invitation to say don't worry about that! We are all the same and we can all work at this thing together.
Seth Price 33:58
Do you think this isn't a fair question? Do you think if say, like people like your grandma or your mom had been willing to say, No, sit down, Jonathan, I need to tell you something, this is gonna, it's gonna piss you off, it's gonna change your life. And maybe if they did that either in a family setting or in a public setting that our religion, our faith, our country, would be different now, have they done that 50 years ago and dealt with that pain and strife? Or was that just not possible, then for them to even have the freedoms a bad word, the liberty to be able to do that?
Jonathan Walton 34:32
Well, so I think the conversation happens when our safety is in question. So I had that conversation with my mom, but only when she thought I might get shot. Or she thought she thought I might end up in a compromising situation.
So I remember distinctly. I mean, the KKK is all through South right. I distinctly remember my mind handing my book to someone, and them being like I don't want to read that.
Seth Price 35:06
This one?
Jonathan Walton 35:08
No, not that one, my book of poetry. And it was really interesting to me to see who was supportive of the stuff that I was writing and who wasn't, and who wanted to know what I was writing and who didn’t. And specifically, there was someone who had a Klan background and his wife did not want him to know that she was reading what I was writing. And my mom told me, she was like Jonathan, this is what you need to know about this family XYZ, right.
So I think it happens in my family when we need to be safe. And similar to the talk that most black people get about policing and stuff like that happens when safety is in question. And I don't think that it can happen when if you're talking about if we had this conversation 50 years ago, and things like that, I think those conversations were happening. I think what people did not opt to do, though, particularly people in power was to decolonize their own way of life. So it really doesn't matter how it's talked about if people are not willing to give up the stuff that comes with the opportunity structures that are set up for them.
Seth Price 36:19
And so when you say decolonize, what is that defining outside of like a Black Panther movie, which is what's made that invoke word like, what does that even mean to decolonize something?
Jonathan Walton 36:32
Yes. So me like as a black male in the United States, able bodied cisgendered all that stuff, right? Like there are places that I can step out of the race, class, gender based hierarchy that I'm invited into, to actually reflect the kingdom of God in ways that are transformative and helpful.
So an example of that is I know that as a man, people are gonna listen to me when I say specific things. And so instead of me making a comment about #metoo, and the oppression against women and patriarchy, I will suggest 10 female speakers and books instead of you getting my opinion. You should just ask the people Jim Crow for women has been set up for right. So I will limit my platform. So, basically, the idea of Philippians chapter two where I will disadvantage myself right so that the community might be lifted up.
So I will openly talk about my past of exploiting women and openly talk about my lust of money opening talk about as best as I can, like the ways that I have used the opportunity structures that have helped me to lift myself up and that by definition, subjugates other people? And so now I will like say, Okay, I'm going to intentionally make sure women are teaching in this place and intentionally make sure I'm making time for folks who are disabled or homeless in my life, slow down so that I can actually have like, I'm not gonna participate as best as I can by the grace of God in the power structures that subjugated denigrate people age in his image, even though I benefit from those systems and structures.
Seth Price 38:19
In honor of Election Day. Your lie number five is that we are a great democracy. I actually hadn't planned on this being one of my lies, but it's election day and so it has a I did take a few notes on it. Specifically, I like your lever. So you've got four levers like there's a lever of well, I feel like anyone that actually does any civics classes or any government classes knows that we're not really a democracy. We'll say that we are and then you ask an actual person that went to high school and paid attention even that hasn't been filtered out of books yet. We're not a democracy and I think people want us to be a democracy. Right? If you don't believe me just jump into Facebook and say Taco Bell sucks and see what happens. Like, it doesn't matter what you say, just you don't want to be a democracy. But why do you think that we think that we are?
Jonathan Walton 39:15
I think that we think that we are and each of the lies builds upon each other, right? So if we say that we're a Christian nation, then we define the fate of the country, an idea. Then what happens is with an immigrant, and if we're all immigrants, and we're a melting pot, then you're defining how we interact with each other. Right? And then if you define equality, right, because we're all equal, okay, let me put all man well, like this is the faith that I believe in. This is who God is. This is how he made me and what he made me do. And this is how we are to see each other. Oh, how do I have access to power when we're a democracy? So we need the illusion of inclusion, to continue to live out the faith that you're supposedly called. And so if I believe that I have power then I won't fight. I won’t rebel. And if I believe that like my vote counts, my voice counts, that my efforts, we're gonna do something like if people actually understood that the meritocracy wasn't real, and that votes actually didn't matter in the way that we think that they do then people would fight.
Seth Price 40:24
Do you think that your vote doesn't matter?
Jonathan Walton 40:28
I think it depends.
Seth Price 40:32
Okay, so today if I saw you today, do you think that your vote doesn’t matter today? I spoke about this with my brother today. We talked about Beto O'Rourke and Ted Cruz because he still lives in Texas. And he was like, Well, why wouldn't you vote for Ted Cruz. I was like, well, regardless of his politics, the dude in his career shows up less than 60% of the time to even vote. And so if I'm telling him that he's supposed to represent the State of Texas, and he never actually physically shows up to do his job, you're doing a bad job. I don't even care what your politics are like you literally aren't you're not even mailing it in, you're just not going to work.
I would get fired. Like if I didn't go to work at my bank, or if you didn't go to work as the Director for IVP. Like you would get fired. And he’s like, well I hadn't thought about that. That's like, yeah, I mean, regardless of your politics.
Yeah, but I don't know. So do you feel like if you voted and I don't see your sticker, but I'm gonna assume that you did. Yeah. Do you feel like it counts or do you feel like it only counts in a way that you're able to now have a voice in the conversation?
Jonathan Walton 41:40
Well, let's break all that down. Right. So I think it's helpful to think personally relationally and systemically. So personally does my vote matter? I think as a follower of Jesus, I want to be intentional about the power that I yield and the power structures in this world. I want to be conscious of that. witness that I am bearing two people who are undocumented in my life. The people that are disabled, like pick the people who are downstream of oppression of violence, I want to say, Hey, I'm taking the power that I have to try and advocate for you in a way that I hope is honoring and empowering in a way that God intended.
So personally, and relationally? Yes, I think it matters. Systemically, I live in New York. The state that I live in leans heavily liberal. So the way that my vote matters, systemically, is dampered, by the population that I'm a part of. So personally and relationally I think my vote is significant because of what it means to me and what it means to my faith in the witness that I am pressing for in the world. Systemically; I'm not sure it matters because actually do not get to define that meaning in the system as it is set up. Particularly because of what you just said, I may vote for someone and not know their actual political agenda. And they're not actually interested in showing up to vote on the laws that I think are important. So they signed up to be my representative, but they're not actually representing my interests because they have their own interest.
Seth Price 43:22
Right. So, Jonathan, I'm curious. It's a two part question. And it may be the same answer. It may not be of the 12 (lies) that you wrote, which was the hardest one for you to come to grips with-or is there a 13th that you're like, oh, man, I can't put that in the book. I can't, or I don't feel comfortable putting that in? But I would like to know both of those answers.
Jonathan Walton 43:48
Yes. So all of them are hard they're all hard. I think the hardest one was…ah man.
Okay, this is not this is not one that's hard, but there were things that were hard and many of them and I'll try to name them because it's just too hard. So I do not have a great relationship with my dad. All of the significant interactions I've had with my father have been post my mom dying. So in the last three years. The chapters that I wrote about bravery and the association of bravery with violence, and trying to get into the mindset of my father in the 1950s and 60s, and his struggle for identity coupled with my own, like brief consideration of I want to fight sex trafficking and slavery. What if I went to the Marine Corps? What if I went the FBI?
Like, there's something about being seen as respected and being seen as brave and being seen in this way. And so I think that was really hard putting myself in his skin, trying to answer that just as son who doesn't have a close relationship with his father, but is trying to do what I believe Jesus has called me to do and honoring him in that way. I think writing the last chapter about my mom, and what did it mean for her to go to glory and get what she did not have on this side of heaven. It's also really difficult because I think when we talk about the hope that we have in Jesus, again, going back to before we don't talk about the hopelessness that exists in the world, and like Revelation 21 it's like, how powerful for me. Because if I think about the suffering My mom experience as a elementary school, middle school, kid going into a formally segregated school and entering into that, like, she lived in a world that was not designed for her.
But she served a God who said that he promised a place for her. But the only way for her to get to that place was to pass through this life. Right. And so thinking about that was also hard. And I think with thinking about we are all immigrants and we are all that we are a melting pot. It was difficult because I had to reconcile what it means to my daughter to read this as a woman who will carry the blood of colonists and the colonized and Native people and Chinese people and Korean people in her at one time. What does that look like? What she being invited into when she will speak Spanish and English and Chinese or Mandarin, right? Like, what is what does it mean for her?
Seth Price 47:08
Can your daughter speak all those now or is she learning all those now?
Jonathan Walton 47:12
Yes.
Seth Price 47:15
Okay, amazing.
Jonathan Walton 47:18
So but that's our context, right? Like, living in Jackson Heights and I want her to be able to communicate with everyone that looks like her and our family, obviously. Yeah, I would say she knows about, you know, more Chinese than I do and less Spanish than I do. And like, it's great to try to go back and forth with her.
Seth Price 47:40
If I'm not called to be a part of White America Folk Religion and I'm not called or if people of color are not called to be part of let's call it Korean American Folk Religion or Black American Folk Religion or Native…I don't really care what words you put in front of American. What are we called to be as the church like what is that look like?
Jonathan Walton 48:00
So I think again, there's a personal relational and systemic response. And systemically, I mean, if we could look like the bride of Christ intimate with him like redeemed and transformed, embody the faithful witness that happened in Acts 2 & 4. That's what I think we're actually called to where we don't live revolutionary lives, but we live subversive lives that are actually out of Romans 12 will be are able
to be not conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewing of our mind and then pursue the gifts that He has for us
promised in Galatians and Corinthians where we would hear from him and respond. Like he says, we will be able to test and know what his perfect will is like he says we could do that. Right, and then reflect that.
So systemically, I think we're actually called to be in intimate relationship with the Father and live out of that love the two greatest commandments. All while living out the great commission, like systemically all of us are called to be chosen to bear faithful witness. That's big picture. Relationally I think that looks like us entering into covenant relationship, a promise community with believers around us. Sometimes that might be like a house church, an underground church in China. Sometimes it might look like a church, in the suburbs in New York City, or whatever it is, but like, I think we are to be in committed relationship with believers and responding in ways together and individually that are transformative for those around us because of who Jesus is. I think personally, what we actually need to do and I talked about this at the end of the book, is look at the book of Acts, particularly Act 1-7, and take notes of what the disciples did. And then say, does my Christianity look like this? If it doesn't, how can it begin to look like this? When was the last time I baptized somebody? Now I know folks might get upset, right? But when was the last time I baptized somebody? When was the last time I cast demons out of somebody? When was the last time I prayed for healing for someone? When was the last time I testified at work to the goodness of God? When was the last time like, if we're not doing those things what are we doing? And so I like to say, if we ran our personal lives in our small groups, or beta groups, or life groups or cell groups, whatever you want to call them, through an Acts filter would we come out looking like follows this from the Scriptures? And if we're not, then we might want to reconsider the kind of trees that we are so that we might bear fruit.
Seth Price 50:56
Yeah, no, that's good. And I like that imagery of reconsider what kind of trees we are based on the fruit that is there. So, you begin lie 12 with a poem and so if you're willing, I know we talked about this a bit before. Yay if you're willing to roll through that so before we do this, where can people get the book engage with you interact with you on social media and or online or email, yeah, snail mail or whatever the mail?
Jonathan Walton 51:24
Well, the website is IVED.life. So that's like, all of our discipleship stuff. People are welcome to come to our programs in New York. People are welcome to grab live stream come to events, all that stuff. 12liesbook.com will be where all the book stuff is. And you can follow me on twitter @foreverfocused, but if you want to get the book by Christmas, which would be great, or if you're listening to this post Christmas, that's fine. They get it off a IV Press or on Amazon and also you can listen to audiobooks, I do perform poetry in the book quite a bit. You get that on Audible, all that good stuff.
Seth Price 52:08
Nice, fantastic
Jonathan Walton 52:19
Yeah Man.
Poem:
My skin speaks volumes my mouth may never say
sends messages my mind may never know
writes pages a pen in my palm never wrote
my skin…
brown but call black—
a whip cracks my mental back
my head aches from self-hate
that I want to go away
My skin says,
I may have struggled but my grandmother definitely did.
some white man, somewhere
had an illegitimate, illegal kid
My cousins passed with green eyes and light skin
but my granddaddy dark,
walked up to doors and couldn’t get in…
he wanted to buy land in Southern Virginia
but couldn’t because of my skin
For some it’s a source of pride
for me, I find it hard to stay unashamed
as I’m asked are you Ghanaian, Dominican, or Haitian?
and my response disrespects my ancestors when I say, I’m just
black.
Uttered from under a cloud of adversity, whispered from behind the shadow of struggle
I’m just black…
I want to say it with more something
but all I hear are Asian parents telling Asian daughters not to
date me
older generations fighting inclinations not to hate me
They say once you go black you never go back
but that’s only half the fact,
once you go black you never go back because some white men
won’t let you
I think black and I think pain
and I want so bad for my thoughts to change
but a world when I’m equal is just a dream
dreamt by a minority ruled by an indifferent majority
leaving me somewhere between radical Afrocentrism
or racial indifference with no ethnic identity at all…
Society won’t let me remember the Nat Turners or the Nat
King Coles
because I just might find my pride, grab my ax, hack out a path
to justice
all while singing we shall overcome….
I must recall the slave in me
so I can fight for those minds that aren’t yet free
free to hope, free to dream
Yes we can, is the song that I sing
and I’ll keep singing until the world is singing with me
They don’t want me to remember the Martins or the Malcolms
because minds like mine start movements
Bunche, Banneker, Carver, Powell, Douglas,
Marshall, Ali, Angelou, Kersey, Washington, Wheatley
Lewis, Walker, they are within me and I must remember…
Biko, Mandela, Aquino, Tubman, Truth—
I must remember the truth
that we must be measured by much more than our levels of
melanin
and our children won’t know our history unless we continue to
tell them
that the greatest race is the human race and we must flock
with runners like
Lincoln, Lennon, Locke, Gandhi, Tutu, Mead, living in on
world, in one great country.
because we too, sing America.
We are dark, light, black, yellow, brown and white
all fighting for the amnesty of the mind
They send us to eat in the kitchen
When company comes,
But we laugh,
And eat well,
And grow strong.
Tomorrow,
we’ll be at the table
When the company omes.
Nobody’ll dare
Say to us,
“Eat in the kitchen,”
Then.
Besides,
They’ll see how beautiful we are
And be ashamed—
we, too, are America.
Seth Price 55:04
Thank you so much, Jonathan for doing that I appreciate it.
Jonathan Walton 55:06
No problem.
Seth Price 55:44
I hope that you're challenged, both to do something both to raise your voice. And if you don't know what that voice is to find your voice, dig into the content that Jonathan I talked about, figure out which lies speaks to you in wrestle with it. And then once you understand at least the history behind what's happening, do something with it. But be careful, I find myself often coming from a position of I know more than someone on a specific topic. And somehow that makes me better than them. And to be honest, I'm not I never have been, nor was I ever. And so I think something that I'm going to wrestle with this year is talking with people, as opposed to talking at people and finding a shared common ground where we can learn together in love. And I know this book has helped me do that quite a bit. As I've come into conversation with people daily.
If you have not yet you need to go to patreon.com/CanISayThisAtChurch and support this show? big plans for this year, would love to take some time, bring some guests to me or either I go to guests, I'd love to do some live meetings and events with some of you. All of that requires funds. I can promise you right now every dollar that you donate in support of this show goes directly back to the show. I'm not buying Starbucks coffees with us and Matter of fact, you can actually support the show for less than a really bad cup of coffee. bucks coffee a few times a year. So I hope that you'll do that patreon.
Today's music was from artists, Royce. Lovett; I love his stuff. He's got some really good YouTube mixes if you go into the show notes and click down on that, and check some of those out they're really good addictive even in today's tracks, like every other episode will be featured on the Spotify playlist called Can I Say This At Church, which is a fantastic playlist if you haven't yet heard it, go back through it. It's it's fun for me to go back and hear how many memories get popped back up. So I'm grateful for each and every one of you listening. I'm grateful when you tell other people about the show. I'm extremely grateful for those of you that have supported the show in any way, shape or form. I look forward to talking with you next week. It's gonna be fun as it has been blessed everybody.
*poem used by permission from Pages 173-176 of Jonathan’s book: 12 Lies That Hold America Captive: and The Truth That Sets Us Free