A Rhythm of Prayer with Sarah Bessey / Transcript

Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Sarah Bessey 0:07

But I think the things that I have been surprised to see rise up is to see that the people that are contending still for the gospel and contending still for hope. And not light, easy, like, painted on a picture of Hobby Lobby kind of hope, but the kind of hope that is grieved. The kind of hope that has sat at hospital beds and polling stations and riots and continued to pray; continue to speak about goodness and flourishing and shalom and peacemaking instead of just peacekeeping. Those things have muscles and teeth and guts now in a way that I don't know that I understood when it was all theory in my head. I mean, you can live the gospel really beautifully in your brain and oftentimes, it isn't until these apocalyptic moments that you realize what does it mean to embody this?

Seth Price 1:05

Before we get going, a small break bear with me I’ll be right back.

Hey there, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I am Seth really appreciative and thankful at the moment. So last episode, I had said, ”Hey, we have a goal of getting 1% of the listeners to support the show in some form or way”. And a few of you answered that call. And I'm so very thankful to people like Carr Cody, Christian Roof, and Cathy Norman. It is people like you, that make this show go. And I am so very, very, very thankful you should join them and and also support the show if you're able. And if you're not, I know that that's a thing, and stressful for some people, I want you to feel no obligation to do so I'm just glad that you're here and listening.

So if there's something that has been pressure cooking amongst many of us this past year, I think it is just stress, right? We're all worked to the bone, or we're not working at all, and that's adding stress. School is crazy because of COVID. People are finding new rhythms, daycare workers are doing things that they were never hired to do, school teachers doing things they were never hired to do. I'm doing things, you're doing things, that we were never prepared to do. Though I do find it amazing that for the most part, we always pick up the call. And we always do what needs to be done, for the most part.

But something that has fallen away, at least for many people is a practice of prayer. I think not a petitionary God, we need you to do this prayer, but a prayer intended as a meditation to help each other learn to grieve and lament, and cry out prayer to say what we're upset about prayer to help fix things that we feel are broken-that matters. So brought on Sarah Bessey. Sarah Bessey has collated a bunch of prayers from many beautiful people that have written words with such grace and such compassion and also such a rage. It's just such an emotion. It is an amazing compilation. It's a very, very good book. For those of you on the Patreon level for a book. It's this month's book and it should be mailed out on Monday, I think. I really hope that you enjoy it. So let's get going.

Seth Price 3:45

Sara Bessey, How are you this evening? afternoon? It's six there, that's evening. How are you tonight?

Sarah Bessey 3:51

(Laughs) I'm doing great. Thanks, I’m glad I don't have to do the timezone part of this, but that's good.

Seth Price 3:56

Well, no, yeah, you are in a time zone. We're all in a time zone. Almost every episode that I record is done at about this time. It's the only time that I can record things where humans are asleep. And there's no one screaming, yelling, entering the room, you know?

Sarah Bessey 4:14

Very well. (laughs) I definitely know very well. We have for four kids and two cats so this is a great time.

Seth Price 4:20

There's been a few that I've had to postpone like, “Hey, we're not done with COVID homework. So can we push it a half hour? Because we're really struggling with fractions at the moment and we have to get this done”. Everyone for the most part, like “I get it. Let me know when you're ready”.

Sarah Bessey 4:35

Absolutely. I usually tap out on math in about grade two. So if you managed to get to fractions, and you're still helping, I'm impressed.

Seth Price 4:42

So I work at a bank for a living and I tutored math in college math is my jam. English not so much I struggle with all of it. I can ramble audibly, but I can't write anything. Anyway. Not why you're here. What is, who is Sarah Bessey? Can't think that most people don't know who you are, but on the off chance of their 14 people that say like, Okay, well, who is Sarah? What is that? Who? How? Whatever you want to say with that, see? I told you I struggle with the words.

Sarah Bessey 5:14

(chuckles)

You know, I guess we'll start with existential questions, that's fine. (both laugh)

So I'm a writer, I guess that's probably the main way that most people would know who I am. If they've come across that in any way. My first book was called Jesus Feminist. And that came out to complete and total welcome and rainbows and cupcakes and unicorns, back in 2013. And then my second book was called Out of Sorts: Making Sense of an Evolving Faith. And that was kind of my way of leaving the light on for people who find themselves wondering or questioning their faith. Which ended up actually giving rise to the Evolving Faith community that I co-created and co-lead with my friend, Rachel Held Evans, who passed away in 2019. And then written another couple books since then. I live in Canada, married for 20 years for kids, all that good stuff I think that's about it.

Seth Price 6:16

Four! That's insane!

Sarah Bessey 6:20

They range in age from kindergarten to high school. And let me tell you, there is some big feelings in this house sometimes.

Seth Price 6:26

Four! Golly, so you're in it for the next 20 years. Like you're, you're in this, you're here for this.

Sarah Bessey 6:34

I was saying that even our youngest, we had our first three and four years. And then we had one last little baby, I could make a fool of myself over. And she finally went into kindergarten this year. And I said to my husband, I was like, this is the first time in 15 years, I have not had a baby or a toddler home with me and I can actually work for the day.

Seth Price 6:52

Do you want to do it again? Get a fifth one? Fill the void?

Sarah Bessey 6:55

(Laughs) I'm too old and tired.

Seth Price 7:01

So you don't normally start with existential questions then on the podcast now that usually easier than that?

Sarah Bessey 7:06

No, of course not. This is the good stuff.

Seth Price 7:09

We'll end with another one. I've ended with the same question accidentally last year. And then I've just carried that over into this year, because honestly, I really enjoyed that accident. But we'll get there here in a little bit.

So you have shepherded, is that the best word, a book on prayer, shepherded, maybe edited I just don't really like because I feel like, I don't like that word at all really. Probably because again, I don't like grammar. So I don't know shepherded is the right word. But tell me a bit about that. Why that you felt like that was needed, especially because prayer means 87 things to 96 different people. So what's a bit about that?

Sarah Bessey 7:46

No, you're exactly right. I think that's part of why I wanted to write about prayer and I why I wanted to have it be something that was more collaborative because I don't know how helpful it is to create, like a template for prayer; or to say, you know, I think particularly for the people that I had in mind when I was working on it. Which was a lot of folks who have found themselves very disenchanted with their religion very much like they've lost their old pathways towards prayer or the ways that maybe they'd understood it, or had it taught to them, or maybe even just had a very narrow definition of what it meant to pray or what it looked like. And so instead of saying, like, “Well, here's how I pray here, go follow these three steps. And away we go.” I wanted to kind of create almost like a prayer circle, which is something that makes room for however we come to that space and have room for all the different ways that we pray.

And for me, that meant having these leaders whose prayers I often rest in, whose leadership I often rest in. I mentioned, Rachel, when we were having my first existential question, and this was the project I started working on in the immediate aftermath of losing her because I felt like I needed to remember how to pray again. I wanted to rest in thsee sorts of prayers I needed people who would, you know, rage and cry and declare and make room for silence and grief, as well as hope and possibility and healing in the midst of all of this too. And so in a lot of ways, it was as transformative for me, I think, as what I'm hoping it will be for other people who read it too.

Seth Price 9:23

Can I, want to be honest about one thing, when I read the word prayer circle, the first thing that came to mind was popcorn prayer. And maybe I'm dating myself like are you familiar with that analogy?

Sarah Bessey 9:35

I feel like I have heard it from a lot of American American evangelicals vague idea of what it is and it seems like there's some trauma there.

Seth Price 9:43

It's effectively everybody you know gets in a circle bows their head and then we're not leaving until everybody prays, but you just kind of go on in any order just you just pop off when you feel led. So is there an equivalency to that when you're shepherding a book of all these other authors of prayer, or no, that was the first thing that popped into my mind?

Sarah Bessey 10:07

(Laughs) No, I think I was thinking of…so I grew up in Western Canada, and my parents are first generation Christians. And so I didn't have a whole lot of baggage around church, and then plus of course..

Seth Price 10:19

That’s great!

Sarah Bessey 10:21

Yeah! We grew up in churches that were really quite small and in a kind of a post Christian context. And so a lot of us were really new to faith and when people told us we were supposed to pray, we were just like, “Great, that's what we're gonna do”, right. And so I think that in a lot of ways, for me, when I thought of prayer circles, I thought of sitting with people who really love Jesus, and all the different ways that we often prayed together. Which meant sometimes you would have some of the, you know, kooky stuff come up, or things that made you uncomfortable. But then other times someone would lay their hands on your head, and you would feel the Holy Spirit. And I think having a sense of community around prayer was really important to me, mainly because it has been a very communal thing for me, and I love to pray with and for people. And I think having to translate that in a book is hard. But I think that the leaders, and the thinkers, and the writers who showed up on those pages made that space, it was really quite remarkable what they did.

Seth Price 11:19

Can we talk a bit about some of the prayers, and I'll be honest, I have for weeks, bounced back and forth. It's always hard when I talk to people that have edited a book instead of writing the entire book, because I felt like you're always giving your opinion on someone else's writings.

Sarah Bessey 11:33

For sure!

Seth Price 11:35

Which isn't really fair to you, at least I don't think that it is, maybe it is. But I'm curious. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna start with some of the prayers that you wrote, because I feel like that's a little safer for me. And I'm a little more comfortable with that. So you have a prayer in there on breath, and I forget exactly the title of it. Like it's right towards the ending of the beginning of the first subsection of orientation, I think. It's like ancient breath or something like that. And again, that's from memory, because I can't figure out how to make my phone go back to the bookmarks that I bookmarked, which is really frustrating.

Sarah Bessey 12:06

I found it actually, I have my manuscript here, because I don't have an actual physical copy of the book yet.

Seth Price 12:11

Isn't it out in a few weeks?

Sarah Bessey 12:13

It is but you know but the borders and shipping and post offices and things right now? I've got like the actual literal manuscripts so now I'm with you?

Seth Price 12:23

That’s insane. So a bit about a bit about that. So what is that? Like you say, breath prayer is an ancient form of prayer. And so what do you mean when you say breath prayer, because for me, that's foreign, like the type of prayer that I grew up with is strictly petitionary; marginally prosperity. That's not the type of prayer that I do now. But for those that are listening, like, what is breath prayer, what do you mean?

Sarah Bessey 12:52

Breath prayer was something that I learned about a few years ago, I think, when I lost a lot of the old pathways of prayer. And I think that, you know, we maybe have some overlap there, because the faith tradition that we ended up finding ourselves in was very influenced by prosperity gospel, Word of Faith kind of stuff, very name it and claim it kind of stuff, right. Which doesn't give you any baggage about prayer at all.

So I think that when I found different pathways towards prayer, like breath prayer, it was an exhale for me, literally and figuratively. It moved me from having to fill silence with words to letting the silence fill me a bit more. And so oftentimes, you know, I give a few examples, you know, on those pages of different ones, you don't usually go through all of them, you know, all at once. Usually, I'll pick just, you know, one, inhale and exhale, and sit with it just for a few moments.

You know, like, the first one we had here was like

humble and gentle one you are a rest for my soul

and just kind of almost sitting in that space that those carve out for me. I almost always pull them from Scripture. So if I'm reading something in Scripture and I see something that really calls to me, or really speaks to me, I'll try to create a breath prayer of it and then sit with it that evening or that morning. In a lot of ways I think that it has carved out space for the conversation with God for me, as opposed to feeling like it's just one way of talking and I find it very calming and very centering in a lot of ways. It centers me not necessarily on my own self, but on the nature and character of God, even on what I hope about God. And even that can be a form of healing.

Seth Price 14:43

It took me halfway through the book to realize that I don't believe there aren’t any male voiced prayers in the book. I think that that's correct. Correct. Every prayer author is female. Yeah. So I don't really care the reasoning behind that. And I'll tell you why. I have enough of that in my life and I always find it very helpful to have female voices. And I often hear God more when women preach because it's a different perspective.

So thank you for that.

I found myself off put at the amount of rage in many of these prayers. At least it feels that way. Like, there's one on prayer like a weary again, the name escapes me maybe prayer for a weary black woman maybe that's the name maybe it's not; there's like a prayer for the tired angry ones. Like there's just a lot of rage.

Can you speak to a bit of that about maybe why that's okay. Because I think a lot of people have been told you're not allowed to yell or scream at anybody but humans, and kind of maybe why that's cathartic and maybe why that's healthy when we pray?

Sarah Bessey 15:44

Yeah, you know, there was a moment of putting together this book where I knew that I wanted for people to have the permission to bring their whole self to prayer. That there is not this sense of you don't have to pretend not to be as angry as you are. Or you don't have to pretend not to be as tired as you are. And I think that for a number of people during these last few years that have felt a particular sort of apocalypse, right, a particular sort of unveiling, especially for, you know, a number of folks who are in the book; for the unveiling that has happened. Whether it's about, you know, sexual abuse in the church, whether it's about Black Lives Matter, whether it has been political, all of these things, we're all carrying these things. And I think pretending that we don't bring them to prayer doesn't do anybody any good or service. I think sometimes we forget that the scriptures are way more honest about prayer than we are.

And what I saw, oftentimes, in prayers like that were Psalms. I saw the cry of David's heart, I saw the tired and weary ones in Scripture that God makes room for and I think is very tender towards there's this beautiful image in Isaiah that talks about how a bruised reed he will not break. And I think that a lot of us are coming to prayer right now feeling very bruised.

And so having someone named and articulate that, even if maybe the experience that brought them to those words are not identical to your own. It gives you permission, then, to have those conversations with God, to have honest conversations with God. You know, like, you talk about how, you know, can I say this at church…can you say this to God? I think is maybe even what a lot of these folks are asking and saying, Yeah, you know what you can and you should.

Seth Price 17:39

Yeah, I tell friends, often if there's something that you cannot voice to whatever God it is your worship, it was definitely not worthy of your worship and adoration to begin with, like, that's just too small of a god. Though, I have been trying to figure out better ways to say that. And maybe you know, because you're a writer, maybe not. The idea of a huge overpowering massive God. Sometimes is triggering for people that were oppressed by a huge, overpowering, masculine figure, and I haven't figured it out yet. And until someone told me, I was like, I never considered that. And that's, that's real. But that's not why you came on. So wrestling with these prayers over the last you said, so you've been collecting these since Rachel passed away, which was, yeah, fall if I remember right? Wasn’t it fall? It's been a while.

Sarah Bessey 18:26

No, she passed away in May of 2019. So I started working on this I think the month or two afterwards. Because we were originally were planning on this coming out in September of 2020. And then the pandemic hit and everything kind of got pushed back. And now all of a sudden, it feels incredibly relevant for right now. So it seems like that was okay. But yeah, it was a long road.

Seth Price 18:48

What has changed for your faith wrestling with these different prayers for so long? And I have to assume in editing them that you're reading them constantly, possibly praying them constantly, what has changed for you as a human where you're like, “yeah, that didn't connect when I read it a year ago, but this is what I needed for today” has anything happened like that?

Sarah Bessey 19:13

Yeah, there's been a number of prayers within here that have actually become almost like a faithful companion in my own prayer life. Words, or lines, will kind of rise up for me you know, over and over again. You know, Nadia Bolz-Weber's prayer in there. She says, you know, “Dear God, help me not be an asshole” is about as much prayer as I can manage sometimes. You'd be surprised how relevant that is (through laughter) on an almost daily basis. And there's so many other ones, you know, Micha Boyett’s, Prayer Against Efficiency, you know, about learning how to slow down and slowing down to the pace of God. Even the practices and liturgies which is not something that was maybe my own tradition has become something that I've realized grown to love incorporating like the examen and breath prayers, like we talked about earlier, that sort of thing, poetry. There's just a lot of different ways that the prayers have connected with me and stayed with me. There's some lines from Barbara Brown Taylor's in particular, about approaching the mountain, like God as mountain in prayer, and I should actually, I don't want to put words in Barbara brown Taylor's mouth, let me find the exact words.s

Seth Price 20:25

She's really kind I don't even think she would care. She's so kind.

Sarah Bessey 20:29

I know she is a wonderful person.

Seth Price 20:35

Last time I talked to her I think she offered me chickens. She said she was overrun with chickens. She's like, “come and get one”.

Sarah Bessey 20:40

That story checks out. Here it is,

The longer I've known you, the more I have lost sight of you, which is not as bad as it sounds. We are so close now that I can imagine you with giant ears, white eyebrows over golden eyes, massive hands that give or take by your inscrutable will. There would have to be more distance between us for that. We are so close now that you come to me as breath, pulse, wind, sap, the steady humming current that weds all living things.

Imagine a mountain, I say to those who want to go there, one so familiar you can see it with your eyes closed.

Like that is…just stay with “imagine a mountain is so clear that you can see with your eyes closed”. It's just a beautiful way of understanding prayer and conversation that stayed with me. Yeah, there’s a lot in these, these words. I feel really, really lucky to be able to have that I've had like a year with them. And now that I get to kind of share them with people. It's like look, look at what this has done!

Seth Price 21:32

That time I have to try to pay the bills, be right back after this small break.

Seth Price 21:55

There is a line and actually Nadia’s prayer that struck me and I have come back to it quite a bit. So there's a line she says,

bless the things we mistakenly think are already dead.

Which is right after a couple paragraphs after the Luke, you know, Scripture that she has woven in there. So I'm curious, what for you, as a conscientious observer, and, you know, you have a lot of conversations with a lot of people and you know, you're in contact, (with alot of peopel). What do you think that we as a church, or we as a people have maybe have written off as already dead that if we could possibly spend some time in prayer would motivate us to action that would actually come to life? Which honestly is the gospel? How amazing would that be? But just curious, your thoughts on that?

Sarah Bessey 22:46

That's a really good question. I know, you have a lot of really interesting conversation. So I might like to hear your answer to that, too. So hang on to that. (Seth and Sarah both laugh)

Seth Price 22:55

That’s not how this works at all!

Sarah Bessey 22:59

Ah! Rats!

I think that that's one of the things that I have really felt very acutely maybe during this time is, you know, I mentioned earlier, like Apocalypse, right, which is a big scary word, especially for, you know, a lot of folks who maybe have, you know, tent revival, you know, sort of thing, the memories or things going on. But the real meaning of the word apocalypse is “unveiling”, right? It's a revelation. It's a revealing, I think it's the sense that this is where we've been that we've been revealed. And it can feel like dying to be that undone. You know, we've seen, I think the aspects of the church that maybe should die, that we can let go, we can open up our hands and let those things sink to the bottom, maybe at last, because they're just pulling us down.

But I think the things that I have been surprised to see rise up is to see that the people that are contending still for the gospel and contending still for hope. And not light, easy, like, painted on a picture of Hobby Lobby kind of hope, but the kind of hope that is grieved. The kind of hope that has sat at hospital beds and polling stations and riots and continued to pray; continue to speak about goodness and flourishing and shalom and peacemaking instead of just peacekeeping. Those things have muscles and teeth and guts now in a way that I don't know that I understood when it was all theory in my head. I mean, you can live the gospel really beautifully in your brain and oftentimes, it isn't until these apocalyptic moments that you realize what does it mean to embody this?

And I think that that embodiment is maybe what's being birthed because nobody can pretend anymore, that the apocalypse hasn't happened and that we aren't completely revealed. So now what? I don’t know if that completely answers your question (though).

Seth Price 24:54

No it’s fine. I'll try to answer the question, because you asked me to. But, again, I will say that's not how these works. But, again, that goes back to what you said, I don't even know if I was recording it of like a bio on the website or whatever. Like, I just don't often find my opinion all that consequential. But what I would say from having these conversations and emails and private message(s), and sometimes people say, “Hey, can I call you and like, sure, here's my number, call me at work, let's talk”, you know. I honestly think something that has been dead, at least in the faith that I grew up in is the ability to expect things to sometimes be really bad, and expect them to remain bad. And I know that sounds awful! But I've come to realize so much of Scripture is lament and is sitting in that lament.

And I'll use something I think, friend of the show Mark Charles has said is “you have to sit in that limit long enough that God shows up”. You don't get out because you're tired of being upset about something you just rest in it for as long as it takes. And I honestly think that's what I see coming to life. I'm seeing so many Christians my age and people of faith younger than me that are spending a lot of time on the prophets and Amos and all that stuff. Because it matters for the Empire, that at least I live in. You’re on northern hemisphere of that Empire, the northern wall of the Empire there. And so that's what I'm hopeful is prayerfully, coming back to life. The ability to be angry in a really holy way to help maybe partner together to bring Shalom, I love that word shalom. To bring about peace in union and communion and reconciliation or maybe just conciliation because maybe things weren't reconciled to be to begin with. But I have no idea also, if that answers the question, but again, I was supposed to ask the hard questions. You're not supposed to reflect them (laughs).

Sarah Bessey 26:55

It is okay for this to be a conversation, Seth, that’s all fine! It’s your podcast you can have an opinion.

Seth Price 26:59

I will say when you can have an opinion, I do not know. Yeah. So when you said the Hobby Lobby version, I could not stop laughing because that's my wife and I do like to go into stores and some of their stuff was really nice. Like I don't mind that

Sarah Bessey 27:12

I'm not mad about my “all I need is Jesus and coffee” mug. I’m not mad about that at all.

Seth Price 27:16

If my wife ever hears this, she'll get upset. But we have a thing that we got a hobby lobby that says “wash your hands, say your prayers, because Jesus and germs are everywhere”. And it's in the bathroom above the toilet, which I find the appropriate place for it.

However, I know that that's gonna cause some damage later in life. Maybe for me, I don't…I don't know. But just the concept. And it came from Hobby Lobby. And now I just laugh at it. But I'm really fearful for my kids. And I can't take it off the wall because I'm married. You know. So…

Sarah Bessey 27:53

It is in the social contracts.

Seth Price 27:57

I can only win so many arguments a year. And that one's not worth… that one's not worth winning.

Sarah Bessey 28:02

There you go! Choose your battle.

Seth Price 2804:

I want to rip half of a sentence, I want to prove text half of a sentence from a different prayer. And so there's one not too many chapters after that from Reverend Winnie… don't know how to say her last name Varghese. She uses the word in prayer. She says, you know, "

these days when I pray, I send all of my hopes and fears into the air over the Hudson River trying to remain long enough for the language of praise to come to me naturally.

What do you think, is the language of praise? Like what is that? Because that's a metaphor that I've never really considered.

Sarah Bessey 28:39

That is really good. I…boy, Winnie is an incredible, incredible thinker, and writer, and is a very calming presence, if you ever have a chance to be around her. Like, just when you're around her, you just feel like, I don't know, you just remembered you're standing on the earth, if that makes sense.

Seth Price 29:00

Where were you standing prior?

Sarah Bessey 29:02

I don't know. Like, you know, sometimes you could just get so caught up in whatever's going on. You forget, like, “Oh, this is happening”. You know, I think that if I think about what the language of a praise is right now, for me, I mean, I'm making this shift and, you know, evolve over your lifetime. But for me right now, I think it looks a lot like noticing particularity, like paying attention. But not in a big grand like, “Oh, go love the world kind of thing”. But like this particular thing about the world, these particular people these particular moments, it feels like an invocation and benediction all at the same time, sometimes for the presence of God. To love or notice, or name, those things that are bringing that sort of music and possibility and praise to us. I think a lot of times we can have a lot of baggage around some of those big churchy words like praise and worship and repentance and whatever else. And I get it. I mean, I've grappled with them off and on for two decades, like right now. But I still like to hang on to them and reinvent them, reimagine them, look at them a bit sideways. And I think that praise is up when you can do that with. All right,

Seth Price 30:17

I want to zoom out, you section this into orientation, disorientation, and reorientation. What am I orienting to? Am I orienting to God? Am I orienting to prayer? What am I orienting to?

Sarah Bessey 30:33

This is the fun part. I didn't tell anybody that!

Seth Price 30:38

See how cool this is…now you can!

Sarah Bessey 30:39

I’m glad that you noticed this Seth, but I didn't actually name what that was. And that was very purposeful. And the reason why is because I can't, again, the nature of a prayer circle and the nature of the invitation. And the nature of the communal aspect of prayer to me meant that I wanted people to be able to bring their own interpretation and understanding of that, to what it was they were orienting and reorienting and disorienting towards. Because again, people can come to this space with that being Scripture, with that being God, with that being their understanding of their place in the world, that can be their understanding of how they even think and move through the world. And so I think there's prayers for in each of those sections, for however, people are coming to that, but I wanted to be really careful not to actually overburden the language too much for people. But you're the only one who's actually noticed that so, yeah

Seth Price 31:36

What do I win? I win something!

Sarah Bessey 31:38

I don't know, I don't know. (laughs)

We’ll figure something out, I'm sure. Maybe something from Hobby Lobby, I'll let you know. (Seth cracks up)

Seth Price 31:46

Well then you'll have to just send my wife the links, because if I pick something from Hobby Lobby it won't ever get hung up. So, um, I want to talk a bit about the prayer For All The So Call Lost because honestly, I think that may be my favorite prayer. Am I allowed to read these?

Sara Bessey 32:01

Yeah, sure thing.

Seth Price 32:03

So Emmy starts

Jesus, I am lost.

They told me to follow you and I did—to the edges, to the margins, to the humble and the grieving, to the oppressed and the slandered,

and then I'll paraphrase.

And they call me lost instead.

You know, so I think that this specifically describes so many people that I know that like, the more that I study, personally, and the more that I see other people study, I'm like, man, my God is so much bigger than he was. And you think that I lost the point! And I don't know how to tell you the point was massive and you're looking at a section of it. What are your thoughts on this prayer specifically, because honestly, we could just print this prayer for 200 pages, and just change the language.

Sarah Bessey 32:48

Oh I know! You know, Emmy means a lot to me personally, in my own story, but she actually wrote a book on these similar things called One Coin Found, but in that prayer, near the end, was that she called them and find out why in here. It's like the forgotten…here it is.

Jesus, in this congregation of the forgotten corner, I'm finding I'm not alone. We are the Church of the still lost in the lost and found. So when you come, bring a satchel ready to collect what longs for home.

And there's something about the imagery of that congregation of the forgotten corner that I think really, it's like a church of the Lost and Found. And those imageries of Jesus being that woman sweeping in every corner looking for that lost one where she called herself a quarter clinking around in God's dishwasher. Like just I don’t know where she comes up with this stuff. It's so brilliant! I mean, like you said, you could just read it over every night for a month, and still find something new in almost every line of it.

I think, too, like the other aspect of that prayer that I really loved is the connection of God knowing darkness and not being scared of it. That God is comfortable there with us when we're in the congregation of the Forgotten Ones. Beautiful.

Seth Price 34:01

Yeah, I have a good friend that is trying his best to show people darkness is equally holy as light. And it's often in the darkness that's where new things get birthed. That's the womb of spirituality. Like that's where things grow. That's what, anyway, different topic altogether. So I buy the book, I sit down. I don't know what people's expectations are when they read a book on prayer. I think oftentimes people are thinking, “Oh, great, this is gonna tell me how to pray in a way that I get that new job or whatever”. And I had a similar reaction to this prayer, as I did to Scott Erickson's most recent book on Advent where, I don't know if you've read that book or not. And if not, you should buy that book. Do you know who Scott Erikson is?

Sarah Bessey 34:49

Yes. And I have not read it yet.

Seth Price 34:51

It's fantastic. But honestly, it's not a lent book. It's not an Advent book. It's it's just I don't know how to describe it. But if you walk away from it and you're like, well, that's not what I expected. So what are you expecting that at the end of the book people close the chapter, there's there's pages, at least from what the Kindle copy says, where I can take notes and maybe journal some thoughts. But what are you hoping at the end that people like, set it aside of like, okay, now what?

Sarah Bessey 35:20

Right. You know, I think that there was part of me that really kind of liked the sneakiness of several aspects of this book. I think, because like you said, we have kind of this preconceived notion in our head of what we think of book about prayer, especially a book about prayer that's exclusively written by women. And yet not marketed as exclusively for women are positioned that way. I think that sometimes we have this certain idea in our head of what this is going to look like. And I liked the subversiveness I liked the surprise of it, I liked that there were moments in this book that would make people go, hang on a minute, can you say that?

And yet other moments, like in Emmy’s is prayer or another one that really meant a lot to me was Enuma Okoro’s, A Prayer For When We've Lost Our Way Again, which I found just very healing and honoring, I think, for the journey or the pathways that we found ourselves on. And so I think that the biggest thing I wanted, at the end of this book, or if people are walking with this book, is for them to know that they get to pray. That it's not just for a particular kind of person, or for you only if you have a lot of faith, or that it's only if you can do it in this particular way that you were taught or that you imagine how really holy people do this. I wanted there to be a lot more people praying. I wanted people to feel like they could have permission to experience and name and embrace new pathways of prayer.

And I think that just as I kind of like to reclaim language from, you know, maybe people who have co-opted it for certain, you know, own, you know, agendas. I really like the idea of that congregation of the Forgotten Ones being the ones who pray, and being the ones who have that gift almost given back to them; reimagined, renewed, surprised. Maybe even like you were saying earlier, the thing with Nadia, the thing that you thought was dead, and then there's unexpected resurrection. And I think that at the end of this, I think a lot of people will hopefully experience some unexpected resurrection when it comes to their ideas of prayer, or at least the possibilities of it.

Seth Price 37:32

We started with existential questions. And so we're coming close to the end of our time. So I want to give you an ability to do another existential question, because they're easier than the other question, right? Why not? When you say God, or the divine or whatever words you want to call or use for God, what are you actually saying that that is?

Sarah Bessey 37:55

That is a very existential question. Is this another one I get to throw back to you after? (laughs)

Seth Price 38:04

Nope. Although, I have answered it a couple times. Yeah. And honestly, my answer keeps changing, which I think is okay. I think.

Sarah Bessey 38:13

Oh yeah, for sure. I think in a lot of ways your answer should keep changing, or else you're not paying attention. You know that…that is a really good question. I think that I would name that, or say that, differently at different stages of my life, and sometimes at different moments of the day. But probably my truest understanding when I think about God, and when I name God or when I'm thinking about what I'm talking about, it really is about love. Which sounds maybe like the Sunday School, churchy, answer, but I think that I've had that so dismantled, and reassembled in such a beautiful and life giving, and healing, expansive, weird, full, sort of way that it holds all of it. And that sort of love is I think what's holding all of us.

Seth Price 39:06

Mm hmm. Love it. Love it, asking that question to everyone. So I've asked it…so I've had people on the show that if Buddhists and Sikh and I just love that answer, like I just love that question. Honestly, I've learned more about the character of God from the answers to that question than some of the books that I've read, and I don't know why and I can't put my finger on why, but I absolutely love it. So where on the internet, or bookstore, or where do you want people to go to do all things Sarah Bessey, or the book or this is that part of the show that we get to say here's where you go to do the things. Where is that?

Sarah Bessey 39:43

You know what honestly, if people just go to Sarahbessey.com I mean links for all my books and my newsletter and if speaking ever happens again, that's usually up there as well. Social media I'm just Sarah Bessie everywhere. I'm not that creative apparently. So if go to Sarahbessie.com you'll find everything you're looking for including an actual hardcover copy of the book. Unlike my pages, which we have enjoyed this whole time as I'm turning pages this whole, this whole interview, you're probably going to be not happy in editing.

Seth Price 40:16

No it's gonna be, it's gonna be fine. Sarah, I really appreciate it. Thanks for rolling with my probably different questions than what you are most likely going to get as you do your podcast tour, because that's the world that we live in and COVID. So, yeah, thanks so much I really enjoyed having you on. It's been a pleasure. I've read your work from afar for many, many years. And so it's been a joy, thank you,.

Sarah Bessey 40:38

Thank you, I really appreciate that. That means a lot to me to hear. I loved our conversation.

Seth Price 40:56

It's me again. So I will talk to you in a week. But I really want to say something different today. So find a practice of prayer that's new for you. There are many avenues and streams to dip into. But I will promise you if you can do that, God will get so big. Not in an oppressive way. God will get so big in a way that you realize you were in a tiny Creek wading in the water up to your ankles and you thought that was God, and it's not. So find a new practice of prayer. And intentionally try to do it every day. Let's see what happens.

I pray that you're well, that you're blessed, that when you look back on each day you find gratitude. You find things to question. That you document your lives mentally in a way that you're looking for joy expectantly because when you look for it, I promise you'll find it.

Take care, everyone.

Sitting with Spirits with Bob Doto / Transcript

Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

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Bob Doto 0:07

What's the outcome of a society that really appreciates the movement of the Spirit? Is that kind of what you are asking? Well, it's a lot less determined. You know, the outcomes are a lot less determined, because the Spirit doesn't work, if we go according to the stories, the Spirit doesn't abide by the rules that we wish it would all the time. You know? So if there's a true appreciation of the movement of the Spirit, then it would mean that, in theory, we'd be a lot more flexible as far as like what outcomes are going to happen or what outcomes might happen. So that there'd be room to kind of negotiate those. So if I expect you to be a certain way, then if you are not that way, then it's very difficult for me to engage with you. But if I appreciate the fact that there is something else working between us here, then it gives me room, it gives you room, to live, to be.

Seth Price 1:07

Here comes ad content.

Seth Price 1:19

Hello, you beautiful people. Welcome back to the Can I Say This At Church podcast, I am Seth, you are you. And we're doing this thing. Thanks for downloading.

January has been a fantastic month for the show gotten so many emails, and new contacts. And, ohhhh, I'm really enjoying this, I can't express how much I really love doing this podcast and doing some semblance of life and faith in an online community. And I'm thankful for it, especially last year and as this year has begun it has been really important to have communities like this and an outlet like this, so thank you. This show is produced 100% by the patrons of the show, and a little bit by ad revenue. And I'm going to come back to that in a minute. But I did want to take a moment before we got going. And thank the newest patrons of the show, both Robert Smith and Rhonda Hufnagel. And I'm really bad with names. So I hope I got that right. But Robert, and Rhonda, thank you so much for your patronage. I cannot express how needed that is and it's people like you that allowed this show to go.

Now I know over this last month, and maybe in some of the back catalogue, there have been some ads on the show. And that ad revenue has been needed to continue to help the show function and grow a bit. I have bigger plans for the show this year. And all of that has a cost. And I'm sure there's a level of patron support that would make that not a thing. But we're just not there, I ran the numbers and it's just not. But as people like Rhonda and Robert and the other wonderful humans that are on patron continue to make this show thing. Hopefully the ads can go away.

In the meantime, I did want to say every patron of any level gets an ad free version of the show. And they also get a couple other versions of the show. There are different levels there where you can get discounts on any merchandise, there's a level where I just send you a shirt or a mug or whatever you want from the store and I'm happy to do so. So consider doing that. And if you can't, I totally get it. I totally get it.

So today, I brought on Bob Doto. Now he was referred to me by a friend of the show, and just overall good human being Mike Morrell. And Bob and I talked about something that I'm really uncomfortable with based on the religious and spiritual upbringing that I am accustomed to, of spirits and spirituality in a way of like literally speaking and resting and communicating and interacting with spirits. And Bob wrote a book called Sitting With Spirits. And that is some of what is informing this episode, but it is way outside of my comfort zone. And those episodes are the ones that I'm really the most pleased with because the and those episodes are the ones that I'm really the most pleased with because I stretch the most as a human. So I hope you enjoy it. Hope that you get something out of it, I know I sure did. And there here go.

Seth Price 4:35

Bob Doto welcome to the show. Thank you to Mike for putting us in contact with each other. Mike's a great guy. I enjoyed reading your book. I'm thankful for your patience with me being tardy to our scheduled time tonight. So but yeah, man, I'm glad to have you on and welcome to the show.

Bob Doto 4:52

Thanks so much. Yeah, thanks for having me here.

Seth Price 4:53

Yeah, who is Bob? Like if you're like, yeah, alright, so we've got a minute and take as many minutes as you need. Like who, what, why are Bob? And that's a broken sentence on purpose?

Bob Doto 5:06

Yeah, I mean, there's a like most people, there's an seemingly infinite number of facets to that. But I mean, really, you know, as far as the work and the book is concerned, you know, I'm someone who's been interested in spiritual things since I was a teenager and just kind of followed those threads wherever they led me. So that led me to a whole bunch of places, through my teens, and 20s, and 30s, and now I'm 42. And all that went far and beyond what my sort of cultural upbringing, which was, I guess, Roman Catholic, essentially, though we were not, I wouldn't say practicing we were more like cultural. I always called us cultural Catholics. But, you know, I went and explored all sorts of religious and spiritual traditions and practices and communities and stuff. And then, you know, the past 10 years was really starting to reinvestigate that kind of like root religion, you know. So that's what I've been doing mostly, but there's so many other parts to talk about.

Seth Price 6:10

What do you mean root religion being Catholicism, or root religion being something else?

Bob Doto 6:16

So I use the term root religion for the religion that people are born into So not root religion in any sort of historical sense. I just mean, like, a person's personal root religion.

Seth Price 6:26

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. I think there are a lot of people that are culturally religious. And I've come to realize that religious literacy, regardless of the religion, seems to be relatively low. I used to think it was just a Christian thing, where people, you know, really studied and dug into their faith, and I'm coming to find that that's just not true. A lot of religions are that way, like, you were born this or born that and so that's what you are. And when you start pressing into the harder topics, the questions and answers just seem really, really, really shallow, which is really discouraging, I think.

Bob Doto 7:07

Yeah, you know, I think religion, you know, I see religion as culture, you know, I see it as a fundamental aspect of culture. And in some ways it is culture. So people kind of perform their culture and their religion in the ways that they do you know, whether they know the nuances and the philosophies, and the history and the myriad of voices that speak for that tradition. That seems to definitely be low. You know? But it's not everyone's thing, you know?

Seth Price 7:37

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So your book Sitting with Spirits. I think I got that name right. I have the digital copy so I've had to memorize the name that is the name right, Sitting with Spirits?

Bob Doto 7:45

Sitting with Spirits: Exploring the Margins of the Unseen Margins of Christianity.

Seth Price 7:51

Yeah. So I saw the book title, I was like, I don't know what's happening here. I read the first chapter. I was like…arggg.. so my upbringing, my cultural root, had nothing to do like we talked about the Holy Spirit at Pentecost that one week, just that one week, the rest of the time, we're just talking about Jesus, like, we're not talking about it any other time. So, like, I'm very anxious for the conversation, because we are well outside of both my comfort zone and my knowledge, if that makes any sense. Because I still like to dive in to “head” things. Do you find that common as you talk about, not spirituality, necessarily, but spirits with people?

Bob Doto 8:32

Um, I mean, yes, and no, it really depends what circles I'm in. You know, the circles that I tend to hang out in, are pretty friendly to those kinds of ideas and practices and experiences. So in that sense, I don't really bump up against much. But when I get into more, and these are, of course, people who have explored multiple religious traditions typically. So, they’ve sort of like been around other ones that might have had more of an affinity to that kind of subject matter. So they're a little more maybe used to it.

But I've certainly noticed, with this book, that when it's in the hands of Christians, people who have been raised Christian and kind of like, maintain that thread throughout their life, that it can be a little bit tricky, you know, which is fine. You know, which is great. You know I’m happy to talk about that.

Seth Price 9:20

So why do you think that is? Because I can't put my finger on it outside of like, I don't know. Like, I asked a friend that is, like Pentecostal and way more charismatic than me. And he's like, Oh, yeah, man. Oh, and he just kept talking. I was like, it's a different language. Like it's so like, why? Why do you think that is?

Bob Doto 9:41

Well, I mean, I think first off, it's it's a time(ing), historical issue, like the idea of spirits is not really in favor right now. You know what I mean, or it hasn’t been in the past 100 years. But you know, we get back into the 1800s and stuff like that, the idea of spirits becomes much more fluid conversation, you know, there's much more of a belief in that these things might be, you know, real. Whereas today, it's not really appreciated at that level. So there's that and certainly within Christianity, as a whole, different threads of it have emphasized different aspects of the teachings. Some, like you said, some it's just Jesus centric, some it's Old Testament stuff, you know, some of its charismatic, so the Holy Spirit, you know. And then you've got like spiritualism and I think it really just depends like, what the flavor of your community was and where their emphasis was.

Seth Price 10:38

So in your first chapter, you use the word rosary, but I've only ever used that word as like the beads like, right, correct, like the rosary beads. But you seem to be using the word rosary in a way that are implying that the whole...and just for context, for those that haven't read the book, and you should stop doing get it. Because it really is a challenging book, at least. For me. You're talking about being at a get would you call it a seance? I guess, I don't know what you would call that. Maybe I don't, I don't know. (Bob laughs) But you're using the word rosary. And it seems to be a different thing other than like, the beads. So what what are you doing there?

Bob Doto 11:14

Right. So that might be just kind of a scene thing. A rosary is the beads but to say a rosary I'm guessing you're not Catholic?

Seth Price 11:26

No, I was raised Protestant.

Bob Doto 11:29

That's the difference, I mean, in Catholicism, to say a rosary, is to use the rosary beads to say the prayers. And that is typically done in the Marian tradition or practice, you know, where it's a rosary to Mary. But there are things called chaplets, which are variations of a rosary. So rosary is a certain number of beads, and there's certain prayers that are prescribed for it. And petitions and things like that. So that's, you know, doing a rosary in that respect. So a rosary is both the beads and it's also the act.

Seth Price 12:05

So my ignorance is it's bleeding through. Where I grew up in Southwest Texas, I'm not even sure where the Catholic Church was, like, just Bible Belt. 100%.

Bob Doto 12:19

I mean, I grew up in New Jersey.

Seth Price 12:21

It’s all Catholic church.

Bob Doto 12:22

We didn't know, like, as a kid, Christians weren't even like, we weren't Christian-we were Catholic. Like, Christian was some other thing. You know, I knew it had something to do with something related to what we were. But I didn't even know like, I really just had no idea. We were like, just Catholic that was the thing.

Seth Price 12:43

Well, I'm coming to find that that term, Christian means way more things than either of us was told. So when you say the word spirit, and it's woven through the whole book, I think that you're using that word differently than my upbringing would use. And I actually wrote down, I write down very few questions. And then we may want to come back to this. But like I literally wrote, what's the difference between my sense of self and a sense of spirit? Like because you're talking about giving spirit voice throughout the book. And then even just in that opening chapter, like, as I'm reading things, I was like, what the flip is happening here?

What is spirit? Can we just start there maybe at a foundation like what are we saying when we say that?

Bob Doto 13:28

Sure, so that changes with different communities, I'll just start that out. But my understanding and the way I've experienced it, and the way I talk about it, is that there's spirit within a person that God has bestowed spirit into humanity, into humans. And that's the sort of motivating force that we see in our language, you know, they have a really great spirit, a very vibrant spirit, or their spirits very sad, or my, my spirit feels low today, or whatever. In the colloquial speech, you can kind of hear sort of the flavor of what a spirit might be. So the spirit is that kind of like, the energy you feel during any particular time of the day.

When you start looking at spirit as an entity, then you start seeing it as yes, it's this sort of motivating kind of feelings kind of thing inside you, but it also remains after you die-in some traditions, they believe that right that it's like, in an untimely death, a case of an untimely death, so called, the spirit might linger. You know, and you we come across this in ideas of purgatory and things like that as well. So a spirit in a very, like basic sense is the lingering aspect of a human being in the world, right. Not everyone believes in that not everyone ascribes to that definition, but that's kind of like a really general (definition). Then of course, there's the Holy Spirit, which is obviously part of the Trinity. I can take us through the whole gam-mot of stuff.

Seth Price 14:59

No, no, no, no. I think we'll get there. I guess yeah, no, we'll definitely get there. So what spirit is happening in the community that you're in in chapter one? Because like people are saying things, it feels like at random and you reference kind of like, an internal monologue of I should say this, I should say this, and then you end up not saying anything. Like, what is that? Is that someone from their community, is that just some random spirit in this context just happens to be passing through this community? Like, I'm just traveling on the jet stream today. And I'm usually I'm probably badly using the terminology for spirit. What is that?

Bob Doto 15:40

Okay, so in that community, that's, that's a Lucumí tradition. It's an Afro-Caribbean tradition, a spiritual system, that's been around for quite some time. And they have a very robust appreciation of Spirit and spirits. So I was at what's called an Espiritismo, or a spiritual misa, which is a mass; but not like a mass like you are I've ever been to kids or adults.

And so in that world, there are many spirits. Spirits are very much present in the world, the lingering spirits of people who have passed. So in that room, people who are sensitive to that kind of stuff will feel as if they are being spoken to, or they're getting information, or they're having some sort of experience that feels outside of themselves. And there's different ways of understanding is that true? And there's a lot of like testing that goes on. So it's not just like everything someone says is, “Oh, that must be a spirit”. You know, sometimes they're like, “Is it is it not”? And they go through different various ways of determining that.

So, in that first chapter, I'm in that group and I'm watching people perform what is believed to be spirit communication.

Seth Price 16:57

So the average observer, say from let's just pick a random set Kansas, if they're in the room with you, like, what do you think most people would view watching that as an outsider?

Bob Doto 17:12

Demonic, 100%.

Seth Price 17:13

Okay.

Bob Doto 17:15

It is not but I but you know, because there's a lot of cultural baggage that people bring to these sort of things. And that goes both ways you know what I mean? They would probably say that this isn't God, this isn't holy. But I shouldn't project because people who have familiarity with being overtaken with the Holy Spirit, that very charismatic tradition, they may look at it and be like, I don't know, it looks like Holy Spirit to me. I mean, I've been to some Pentecostal churches, and I've seen more talking in tongues there than I do here.

Seth Price 17:50

Yeah, yeah.

Bob Doto 17:51

So in one sense, I say you know, the cultural aspect of it, because there's probably statues around and incense and things that look kind of nefarious, even though they're not. It might be translated as like not of God, but really it is, it's quite godly.

Seth Price 18:09

So I want to drill there, on demonic. So, I think it's chapter four, maybe chapter five, you're doing you're talking about like, casting out demons and demonic thought, and demonization of the Spirit. And that's kind of a, what is it? I'm trying to think of the name of the saint. It's a saint, I can't think of the name starts with a C. Here's what you said. So you say

there has always been a problem of using Jesus’ as casting out of demons as a theological justification for demonization

of spirits paraphrase there at the end of mine, spears. So you use the word. Most people, you know, say from Kansas, we look at that and be like, what the hell is happening here like this has to be demonic. So how are the two conflated like demonic spirits versus not?

Bob Doto 18:56

So historically, what kind of happened is just prior to the Biblical era that we see in the Bible, and certainly, Jesus more particularly, there was an understanding of spirits. Spirits float around, they cause mischief, and certainly in Greece, Greece in particular, there was an understanding that spirit lingered and could be both beneficial and, you know, malicious, it was kind of like neutral in that way. And in the Old Testament, you see a bit of this as well. As you get to the time of Jesus. The only spirits that are really mentioned are ones that are essentially causing problems.

They'll talk about like Jesus needed to cast out this bad spirit or evil spirit or unclean spirit. They don't talk too much about the spirits that were not causing problems because what's to talk about really? So as the tradition grew, the Christian tradition grew, and found its way into other cultures the idea of a demon kind of took over it. Just be came the governing default term for what would actually be not so singular. So it just became demons. If someone's, you know, upset, it's demons if someone's ranting, it's demons, all negative, all negative. So in that chapter, it's chapter four, I'm sort of unpacking that. It was a lot more nuanced in the Bible. And certainly in Jesus's work and time.

Seth Price 20:26

What you'll find with me is, is I bounced around quite a bit. So I struggle, so the hardest part for conversations like this, are I literally have so little background to fall on because of my upbringing. Yeah, as I read your book, I kept taking notes and then kept getting frustrated, and then kept taking notes. And then…it's fine, I want to go back to something you said at the very beginning of the book. So you say that you're trying, I think you say some of the effect of you for a while you fell away from the Catholicism of your youth, and that you were hoping to find a new Catholicism of the Spirit, like a way to marry the two. What do you mean, when you say Catholicism of the Spirit? And honestly, have you? Have you found a way? Because I don't know that you really answer that question. And again, outside of some appendicies, but maybe I feel like it's left open. I could have missed it, though. Totally could have missed it.

Bob Doto 21:21

No, I mean, the book itself is kind of a testament to me kind of really embracing it. And I've certainly embraced that tradition in a much more broad, more informed, fashion than when I was a kid. So that's the case now. But you know, the book is also written for a lot of the people that I'm around, and in communication with and talking to, and all that kind of stuff. Are people who were like me, you know, had this faith or this religion that they grew up in, rejected it for any number of reasons. And, then we're talking 20 years later, they're starting to be like, wait a minute, you know, there's, there's stuff here, there's stuff here, that's mine, you know what I mean, I grew up in this, I could be exploring this. So people are coming back to it and, you know, I'm kind of speaking to those people and saying, look, this tradition everyone's going to tell you it's one thing, it's not one thing. And it's not even 100 things, it's many different things. And part of finding your place in it is to find the areas of the tradition that resonate with you. And that could be the spirits. That could be the saints that could be Red Letter Bibles. I mean, it can be, you can come at it from so many different aspects. So that's like, my mission, in a way is to show people the breath of this tradition in all its forms.

Seth Price 22:47

Yeah. So you fell away from Catholicism as a youth. And so now you would call yourself Catholic again, or…

Bob Doto 22:53

Sure, yeah, I think so. Yeah. I would call myself a Catholic. You know, like, I mean, I have sat with so many people that are so not this religion, that at this point, the labels are almost kind of like funny in a way, but like, yeah, I mean, I would consider myself Catholic.

Seth Price 23:12

Your answer sounds like [mine], so some of the other day asked me if I was Christian. I was like, sure. I gave very similar answers. I was like, I'm not really overly involved in whatever that means. I'm just trying to do like Matthew 25. I don't want to be like Matthew 23. I'm trying to focus on Matthew 25. I don't want to be a brood of vipers, just trying to love my neighbor.

Bob Doto 23:35

100%, I’m a little in the same boat.

Seth Price 23:37

Whatever that is, we'll call myself that.

Bob Doto 23:41

Someone that said, Oh, you know, you being a Christian and all blah, blah, blah, in a comment online. I was like, what, like, but it felt so strange. I don't really think of myself that way.

Seth Price 23:51

Well, I mean, the titles, evangelical Catholic, like they're all get conscripted to mean whatever they need to mean for political power, or monetary power, or Empire power. But that's an entirely thing separate of spirit.

Bob Doto 24:07

Doesn't have to be.

Seth Price 24:07

Yeah, so you unpack the Holy Spirit, and you unpack it through Pentecost. And so you I stopped taking notes, because I felt like I was just literally copying out of the book. But like, when you unpack it, like you talk about, like, there's like three things that I never really thought about any of these. And I've never really heard it preached either. Probably because, again, of the denomination that I’m in. So you say, first off, the Holy Spirit arrives, which I wrote down. So where the hell is it? B: And then it comes with a glorious noise, which still doesn't make any sense to me. C: and I think you actually call them 123. But whatever. And then the Spirit wants us to speak. Can you rip those three things apart?

Bob Doto 24:51

Sure, yeah. I really wanted to emphasize because my understanding of the Holy Spirit as a kid and just in the culture was That it's this kind of theoretic thing. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't really have a place, it doesn't really do much. It's just kind of like the third part of the Trinity. So I went back and I started unpacking well, what does it say? How is it showing up in these stories, and it shows up in three main ways, which are the ways you just mentioned.

So the first one is that it arrives. Meaning that you feel it, there is a sense that it was not here a moment ago, you felt one way, and then all of a sudden you feel another way. And that's what happens in the Bible. I use the example of Peter placing his hands on some people, and the Holy Spirit descending.

Now, in that story, these people were believers in Jesus, they were essentially followers of Christ and we're all in. But they still hadn't had, according to the story, they still hadn't had the Holy Spirit or Baptism in the Holy Spirit, which is very telling, it tells us that you can say and do and feel all sorts of ways, but the Holy Spirit is something specific that enters your life, and you feel it. Does it feel the same for everybody? I'm sure it doesn't. But at least according to the text into the stories, and which are our tradition, these stories, it's something that you feel it's something that arrives.

The second part is the glorious noise. So that's sort of another an elaboration on that first part, which is that in all these stories nothing remains the same, right? Like the environment that people are in changes. So it's described as a glorious noise. But it's really like things change around you, you know, at least your experience of things, changes or changes around you. It's not like things are just passive anymore, you're passive to the environment anymore. It's like no, something is here. And it's made itself known.

And then the third is, of course, the push to profess, or the push to speak. It's another very, super common theme in the arrival of the Holy Spirit. That not only do you have the experience, not only does your environment seem to change, or at least your appreciation of your environment changes, but you are motivated to talk about whether it's through prophecy, through tongues through wisdom through whatever form you takes. So it's this very visceral, it's very vibrant, it's it's a, it's a big thing. It's kind of a big deal, you know.

And so that's what those three parts are really talking about is that it's something that happens, you feel it, and you're changed because of it.

Seth Price 27:31

Give me a minute, we'll be right back.

Seth Price 27:50

If someone's listening, and they're like, I don't think that's ever happened to me, like I'm sitting back, I'm thinking back through my entire life. I don't know that that ever happened. What then like, is there a feeling of discouragement? Should they be seeking that? How do they possibly seek that? Should they really not worry about it, like it'll happen when it needs to happen? Because as I read through parts of it, I like, I don't know that I've ever experienced most of these things. And so I was like, well, what is what does that say about me?

Bob Doto 28:18

Sure, I’ve felt the same way. I mean, I get it I my take on that would be that people probably have felt that shift in their life, and maybe just not attributed it to divine origin, so to speak, or have some movement or a quickening, what's often called a quickening of the Spirit, which I love that that phrase. But we've all had ephiphanies, we've all had ah ha moments, which are, you know, just kind of like, minor, you know, but we've all also had just deep, rich appreciations of another person or a situation or a scenario that's occurring, where we just feel above and beyond what we're used to.

Now are those moments of the Holy Spirit that's really between you and the Holy Spirit, you know. But I think if you're tuned to that, and I think it's a practice. The more you sort of commit to being like, I'm gonna just pay attention when those things happen and actually, like, stay with them a little bit and just feel what they feel like. I think people will feel that there is something happening here. Is it trumpets do like trumpets come in and angels? Probably not. But I don't think that's really what it's about, you know.

Seth Price 29:29

It is a glorious noise.

Bob Doto 29:30

It's a glorious noise, but it could be a quiet glorious noise, sure why not.

Seth Price 29:35

(laughs) Don't wake up the neighbors.

What would the concept of the Holy Spirit exists like in the first community that you were writing about in chapter one? Because you had said that some of those people that were practicing, you know, being basically spiritual mediums for things that have been left unsaid or that need to be said? How does one do that but then also practice, because you had said some of them were practicing Catholics, I think even in the in the book. How does that coincide because it just breaks my brain a bit?

Bob Doto 30:08

So the first thing people need to understand is that there's Catholicism of like the Roman Catholic Church, but that's like, I don't really know how to describe it. But it's kind of like that’s like the centralized authority on certain matters, right? But it's not the end story of what actually goes on in the world, right. This religion is not the church this religion is in flux at all times is constantly being reinvented, not reinvented. And not reinvented like someone invents it. I mean, it's constantly being breathed into new life.

So what that means is that to these people, of course, they're still Catholic. To them it's like, I grew up Catholic, I believe in Jesus, I go to mass, I perform all the rights I invest myself in it. And I also believe in this other aspect that the church doesn't really recognize so much, but it's it's here, you know. It's kind of like you participate in the world. And if your world involves spirits, then you participate with spirits. You know what I mean? If your role doesn't involve spirits, you don't? It doesn't mean it affects what Catholicism is, you know?

Seth Price 31:20

I want to pivot to some of the theology of Paul, I think you shared a good section of your time there on the gifts of the Spirit, theology of Paul, you got some quotes in there out of Timothy and I can't remember exactly which Timothy it is. I think that was part that talks about like demonic spirits, I think or, or spirits that are not hold on, I actually find it I have it bookmarked. At least I think I have it. Yeah, Timothy 4:1

the spirit clearly says that in later time, some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

But you break through like a lot of the gifts of the Spirit, speaking in tongues, Pentecost, all this stuff throughout Acts and the other books of the Bible. And you rip them apart in ways that I hadn't really prepared to read. Can you talk briefly on some of those? And just to be real honest, speaking in tongues is the one that freaks me out the most.

Bob Doto 32:06

Sure.

Seth Price 32:06

In fact my mom asked me the other day, and I was like, Mom, I don't like literally two days ago. Like Mom, I don't…I don't know.

Bob Doto 32:15

She asked you what, like what is speaking in tongues?

Seth Price 32:17

No, she asked me my thoughts about it. So someone had come to our house. So my father recently passed, and someone felt like they needed to come and pray with her. And then while they were there praying, there were a couple of them, you know, they laid hands on her and then just started praying in a different language. And my mom was like, I didn't know what to do with that. I was like, well, I mean, be great grateful that they came. And I don't know, mom.

Bob Doto 32:41

What do you do with that?

Seth Price 32:42

So the fruits of the spirits…

I think it's because of the the denomination that I'm in. And again, my upbringing, like they don't make any sense to me. If that makes it. They don't hold much logical sense for me. Can you go in a bit of what you say around those? Because again, they're connected to spirit?

Bob Doto 32:59

Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, speaking in tongues, you find everywhere around the globe, in all traditions, this sort of performance. And by when I say performance, I don't mean like it's a put on or an act. I mean, like it is an external expression of something that's happening.

So you know, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, they're actually spoken of slightly differently in a few different areas. But the ones that I speak about are very specific in nature. The speaking in tongues, if that's what you're kind of asking about the speaking in tongues, he (Paul) describes them very detailed or gives very detailed names of them. One is wisdom. One is knowledge. One is prophecy. One is the ability to heal. One is the ability-the ability-to speak in tongues, whereas another gift is the ability to interpret those tongues with the Holy Spirit; or the Holy Spirit has come down on to them.

And he describes them very detailed or gives very detailed names of them. One is wisdom. One is knowledge. One is prophecy. One is the ability to heal. One is the ability, the ability to speak in tongues, whereas another gift is the ability to interpret those interpret. One is of course miracles or being able to perform extraordinary acts. and he says, no one will have all of them right people will some people will get this some people will get that and the idea is that if we live together we'll all have be able to share these gifts with one another and form a nice big, it's like Voltron.

Seth Price 34:20

Like a church?

Bob Doto 34:23

Like a church or like Voltron, same difference (laughs). Like the Power Rangers.

Seth Price 34:29

The Power Rangers are such a cheap knockoff.

Bob Doto 34:34

So so speaking in tongues, the way I define speaking in tongues and the way I've experienced it, is that if you think of the human being as a vessel, right, a vessel that has all of its conditioning, all of its cultural projections, all of its ways of seeing; which are very limited right? Of course, just by the nature of having eyes in front of our heads, we are limited In our scope of vision, so we come to all these things with sort of preconceived ideas and the things we hold onto. Spirit doesn't abide by that. So spirit comes down. And it needs to find a way to express itself. You're kind of like an antenna. And what happens is that message gets very garbled in a way, you know what I mean?

So people start speaking in languages, they don't necessarily know, in languages that nobody knows, because they're not languages that we use, they speak in ways that can be quite confusing. So one of the other gifts is the ability to interpret that speech. Right.

So the speaking in tongues, the way I experienced it, and understand it is that it's kind of watching a human who's this kind of small in a way character in the in the story, trying to negotiate something that's much bigger, much more feral, in a way. And it has to kind of find its way through this very tiny hole we call a mouth. So you're really just witnessing it. So for your mother? And she asked, like, what do you do there in a way, you just kind of witness it, you know, I mean, make sure the person doesn't get hurt themselves, you know, if they're flailing about, but you witness it. And if you believe that these are divine acts, you kind of give thanks that you were in the presence. You know, and if there wasn't anyone there to interpret Well, maybe next time, you know.

Seth Price 36:27

Yeah, so I remember growing up, I was always told if someone's speaking in tongues, and there is no one there to interpret. They're not doing it right. And those are the rules I was told. So the other ones though, so those ones we don't talk about as much. So prophecy, healing, like all that other stuff, like, what do we do with those? Because I don't know what it's like for someone to use the Spirit to speak a prophecy. Like I again, all of those are well outside of my wheelhouse. So how does one like myself know what to listen to?

Bob Doto 37:01

Right. So that's discernment. That's a whole other practice, you know, the Ignatians are great at talking about like, spiritual discernment, being able to discern what's worth listening to, and what's not in any scenario, whether it's like, what you should buy at the store for groceries, or what like, is true prophecy or not. But you know, these things, these gifts, there's a sense for the person who's experiencing it, that this is not of them. That it's a subtle thing. And we could as outsiders, we can look and say, Well, of course, it's you. You're speaking it, like what, you know, that's a very new, very modern way of understanding what's happening there.

It just is, according to the history. It's just a modern, very new way of thinking that it isn't prophecy, you know, 100-200 years ago, and all the way back, it would have just been like, yeah, that's prophecy. It just wouldn't have been, it would have been a big deal, but also kind of like not a huge deal. It's like people prophesize. That's what you see in the Bible all the time. You say, Oh, yeah. And then he went over there. And he's prophesizing for a while. And then he went and like went fishing.

And it's like, Okay. The tone, it tells you that this was a much more normative thing. And we just don't have access to that. I didn't I wasn't raised with that. Yeah, know, at all. But traveling around, watching other cultures engage in things that are quite similar. You start to see that like, this is everywhere, this way of thinking or appreciating what's happening has been around much longer than than the way we appreciate it. Which is a lack of appreciation.

Seth Price 38:33

What does the role of modern science, and specifically like therapy, mental health, how should that play together with Holy Spirit? Because I see, and I've had people tell me, you know, if something's not happening correctly, I'm just not praying correctly. I'm not in touch with the Holy Spirit, this and the other like using it as a carrot or a MacGuffin to yield power or sway my thoughts on this side of the other. And I've had other people say, well, the whole thing's crazy. Like, they just didn't have an understanding of germ theory or anything else. So of course, they gave it a name. And that's what they call it, like, that person was just having a psychotic break. And they called that a spirit. How do those two interplay for today?

Bob Doto 39:14

I mean, in some sense, it's like, yes. And, you know, it's like, yeah, some of these people were probably epileptic, you know, and they called it spirit. Today, we call it epilepsy. In 100 years, or 200 years, or 500 years or 1000 years do you think they're gonna call it epilepsy? No, no, they're gonna look back and say, “Well, that was really rudimentary”. You know, and it isn't. It isn't rudimentary. It's like, we live in a context like, this idea that things are progressing like, oh, well, they didn't know this. And now they do. And now we know more. It's actually not really true.

It's like, you know what you know, and base everything we do, based on the knowledge we have, right? They didn't know less they just knew different. So it was as true to them as ours is true now. So yeah. So in some sense, we could say, Oh, well, they were having psychotic breaks. Sure, maybe they were. But the way they interpreted it was was different.

But what I will say though, there's a really good I think Ram Dass might have said it one of the major Western spiritual teachers who recently passed away he, I don't know if it was him. I don't know who said it. But what they said was, he said it, somebody said this really great thing, which is that, you know, mysticism or mystics swim in the ocean that psychotics drown in. And so it's this idea that if you are able to still maintain a connection to the social world, but you have these rich, deep, heavy duty experiences, even if you have them 99% of the time, but 1%, you remember, I'm the son of x, y, and z, you are still playing in the world of mysticism. If you lose all of that, then in our culture, we call that a psychotic break.

That is not how all cultures see it. In India, they don't necessarily call it that. You know, and India is not a rudimentary version of America, it is different. So you know there's gray area, there's crossover, it’s like there's no line. Certainly once you scratch the surface, there's no line.

Seth Price 41:24

Yeah, yeah, certainly not. I googled that. If you can believe the Google that would be Joseph Campbell, which that sounds like something Joseph Campbell would say.

Bob Doto 41:32

That makes sense.

Seth Price 41:33

He actually says,

The psychotic drowns in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight.

is what this says,

Bob Doto 41:44

Which is even better.

Seth Price 41:45

Yeah, sure. Well, it's Joseph Campbell. One of my good friends studied under him, and often he'll say things and I'm like, That's brilliant. He's like, yeah, that was Joseph Campbell. I'm like, yeah, at the beginning of your book for context at recording for those listening, because honestly Bob, about I have no idea when I'll release this soon-ish. I'm comfortable with a soonish timeline, we just finished with the election. We're like on the Tuesday or whatever day it Yeah, the Tuesday after the AP said that, you know, Biden became president elect.

So for context that’s where we're at in the timeline, as I'm asking this question, but you write in here that for and it's in a chapter about orientation, the way that we orient ourselves towards spirit, you say

the US culture prioritizes self determination over spirit.

What does that mean self determination? And I say that us culture, because it's, it feels prescient for the moment that we're in, in the world.

Bob Doto 42:35

Right. So on the whole, despite being considered to be a very religious society in North America is considered very religious. On the whole, there's still this idea. And it's held to very strongly that at the end of the day, is it's a bootstraps culture, right? Like, if you want to make something happen, you have to like do it yourself. Right? So that's what I'm kind of referring to there.

It's not necessarily a culture that sort of says, well, if it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be. You know, I mean, we may say that that may be part of our lexicon. But the governing principle is that love is not meant to be and you want it to be just go do it. And that's a fine principle. I think that has plenty of pros to it. But it changes how we understand and how we read a text like the Bible. Our interpretation of the Bible is colored by that understanding. That it's like, oh, well, if you're not affluent, you know, if you're not rich, you know, you're just not working hard enough. You're not doing enough. You know what I mean? And if you're not doing enough, it means Jesus isn't listening. You're being punished, I mean, you're doing enough. Yeah, you know, so it's colors. So that's, that's really what I was referring to.

Seth Price 43:45

Okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah, I got confused reading that because the way you just described, it sounds similar to self determination is equivalent to a prosperity theology, a dominionist theology. At least that's the way I'm hearing it.

Let's pretend humans as a whole are more tuned to listening to spirits and all the manner that that can be manifested, specifically the Holy Spirit. What do you feel like changes? Like, what do you see? Like if people could do that? Like, you're like, Oh, yeah, this is the outcome of that.

Bob Doto 44:16

That's a really good question. I don't think I've ever really been asked that question. So what's the outcome? So I'm gonna just say it back so that I have it. What's the outcome of the society that really appreciates the movement of the Spirit? That’s kind of what you are asking?

Well, it's a lot less determined. You know, the outcomes are a lot less determined, because the Spirit doesn't work, if we go according to the stories, the Spirit doesn't abide by the rules that we wish it would all the time. You know? So if there's a true appreciation of the movement of the Spirit, then it would mean that, in theory, we'd be a lot more flexible as far as like what outcomes are going to happen or what outcomes might happen. So that there'd be room to kind of negotiate those. So if I expect you to be a certain way, then if you are not that way, then it's very difficult for me to engage with you. But if I appreciate the fact that there is something else working between us here, then it gives me room, it gives you room, to live, to be. You know, to change your mind to, you know, turn course. It gives us room to just be bigger, to have a more full range of our human experience. That will be in an ideal scenario.

Seth Price 45:40

Yeah, no, I like that.

Bob Doto 45:44

Why not‽ Who doesn’t want that!

Seth Price 45:45

Yeah, maybe I'd be able to hear people and they'd be able to hear me. Yeah. I like that.

Um, so final couple of questions. So the last one. You wrap up the book with some practices, one of which is Lectio Divina, which is one of my favorite ways favorite, favorite. I don't know if that's a good sentence. One of my preferred ways of studying Scripture. I'm a huge fan. I do that and the Examen. The Examen I do every day. And Lectio Divina probably once a week, because it takes a lot more effort on my time.

Bob Doto 46:18

That takes alot of time.

Seth Price 46:19

So I drive about 40 minutes each way to work. So I couldn't do the Examen while I drive without having an accident, usually. Lectio Divina, I can't because like I have to close my eyes, like it takes a lot more concentration, and I'm driving a 4000 pound piece of steel. I need to be at least marginally focused. So of those practices, which ones do you feel like are maybe a few that people that are uncomfortable or maybe have never thought about trying to attune themselves to the Spirit that they could begin to engage in in a way that would kind of slowly wade into the waters; if that makes any sense?

Bob Doto 46:54

100% makes sense. I mean, the daily examen is a beautiful way to do that. You know, those practices i given there and and I give a preface to it are not meant to (be) ways to listen to the spirit, you know, what they are there ways to slow down and become sensitive to your environment, whether that be the environment of the holy books, or your environment of like, literally sounds around you, because we don't do that-many of us. We just don't make time for that. And what I found when I first started engaging with this more like spiritful, I call a spirit full. So rather than spiritual spiritfull practices is it took me a while because I actually had to shut up.

Like, just be. Which is not to say, like I would, I was doing lots of other things, a yoga and stuff, but like, so I had an understanding of what that meant even. But some people have no idea what that even means. What do you mean be quiet, like, be quiet and do what? So the practices i given there are kind of very beginner, a beginner they can, you can do them the rest of your life, but they're easily approachable practices to start listening. But what you were talking about the daily examen or lectio divina, you know, reading spiritual texts in a very contemplative manner. I mean, that's, that's where the goods are, you know, those are great ones. The Ignatians, I mentioned them before, you know, they know how to do that. They're good people to go talk to or at least read from, you know. They're versed in that stuff.

Seth Price 48:25

Which ones do you do? Which ones are your fall back on? So like, if you've had a stressful day, or stressful month or whatever, like, what are what are the ones that you fall back on where you're like, Alright, I really need to get refocused here.

Bob Doto 48:35

So, my practice, basically, at this point is doing right now I'm doing the Ignatian Spiritual exercises, which I've been doing every day for half a year now. So that's reading aspects of the Scripture, the teachings of Ignatius, St. Ignatius, and it's kind of like lectio divinia in some ways, you know, it's that contemplative reading. But every morning, you know, I get up very early, and I say some prayers, I have an altar, and I say, my prayers there, and I do some chanting and some singing. And then I practice yoga, and then, you know, starts very early, and then I clean my apartment for an hour, which is another practice I do. So I chant while I practice while I clean for an hour, typically not every day, but most days. So I do alot, there's lots that I do.

Yeah, but to answer your question, if I'm just like, man, I'm feeling really…like all might say a rosary or, you know, sing some hymns and things like that. I'm a big like, what are called like bhakti. Bhakti is the yogic tradition of like devotion. I like to sing. You know what I mean? I like to sing old folk songs and enhance and stuff. Those are really kind of like just shake it out.

Seth Price 49:45

Yoga is also on the list of things I am entirely ignorant of; never have done any yoga. Now inside of watching my wife do it like as a as a form of exercise, not a spiritual thing at all? So a question I've been asking everyone this year. And so I'd like to end with this. So if you were trying to wrap words around, you know, here's what God is-the divine is-whatever, and you're trying to explain that to someone say the person that lives below or above you, like, what do you say to that?

Bob Doto 50:19

I say that God fills all the cracks, you know what I mean? God is the incomprehensible just motivating force for all things and all non things. That's a very big answer. But I would also say that God refines itself for us to experience God through saints or special beings, or prayers, or songs, or trees, you know, or just in life itself. Like we can experience God in all sorts of fashions around us, because God is in all those things.

So while we can't comprehend the scope of God, we don't need to because we've got the tree and we've got the saints. And we've got the songs.

God did us a real solid there. Making it a little easier. (we both laugh)

Seth Price 51:18

I love it.

Bob, where do you want people to go? Where do they go to do the things?

Bob Doto 51:23

Do the things with me? So I spend most of my time unfortunately on Instagram. So I have an Instagram handle known as New Old Traditions. That's where I spend a lot of time I post videos there talks there, quips there. I stream there, I host classes. Anything iIm doing i post there. Yeah, I just use it as kind of my website at this point.

Seth Price 51:55

New Old Traditions?

Bob Doto 51:57

New Old Traditions.

Seth Price 51:53

I like it. It is a bit oxymoronic, I love it. Yeah, very much.

Yeah. I appreciate your time, so much tonight.

Bob Doto 52:00

And thanks so much.

Seth Price 52:01

Thanks for allowing me to fumble through.

Bob Doto 52:02

It’s been great and I think you did great.

Seth Price 52:14

I think that it's important to find things that we can learn from people that do faith and spirituality different than us. There's always something that you can come home to. And I'm reminded of something that Barbara Brown Taylor said, when she said, “You know, I can learn about God from other faiths and other ways of doing faith. It's just Jesus that I come home to”, and I find great comfort in that.

So I'm thankful for people like Bob, and other people that stretch me. Because I do see God getting bigger than that tiny one that I grew up believing in. What you're going to want to do right now is hit pause, go down and click the show notes and just become a patron supporter of the show.

Another call to action, tell your friends about the show, maybe rate and review it. I hope that you are well, that you're blessed. Next week, I have a fantastic conversation on a hard topic about racism. And I think that that matters. I have Joel Edward Goza on the show. And then February is another fantastic month. I cannot wait for that to happen. And I will see many of you over on Patreon, or on Facebook, or on Twitter, or via email.

I really hope that you're blessed.

Recover: An EP about Faith and God with Forrest Clay

Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

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Forrest Clay 0:09

I think we have a culture, we've developed a culture, especially in church circles where we are so oblivious and ignorant of other people's pain. We're seeing that all over the place now with racial issues and just the inability to empathize.

Seth Price 0:52

How are you beautiful people? How are you? So today at recording this, it is Thursday, January 7, I just got home from work. And I spent the day wondering what I saw yesterday, and I don't usually talk on the podcast, necessarily, about events in real time. But there was an image that I saw yesterday. That is haunted me like I literally thought about it. As I went to bed last night, I thought about it all day at work. And that image was Trump 2020 and underneath that it says Jesus for President or something to the similar of that, or something to that effect. And I don't know y'all. I try to give a wide berth to so many different viewpoints, because I almost always learn from all of them, even when I disagree with them 100%. I've found space to learn there. But I about lost my stuff yesterday.

Oh, I have so much more I want to say but but I don't know how to put what I want to say into words very well. Not at this moment. And you're probably wondering, what the heck does that have to do with an episode of the Can I Say This At Church podcast? And if this is your first episode listening, because you're a friend of the guest, or you know iTunes recommended it today. In a minute, we'll get back to normal, but I just felt like I needed to say something. People of faith, whatever addiction that we have, and that's what it is, it's an addiction to power. It was on full display yesterday (the day of the insurrection). And then I watched this morning replays of senators and congressmen basically exalting the Capitol building as if it's some form of church and houses a deity. I mean, they called it like temple, and they called it some other words that should be reserved for something way larger than a house of laws, and a house full of argument, and a house that belittles other people. Both sides do that, by the way.

And it's just we got to do so much better. If we don't, what is the whole point? So church, we've got to figure it out. And we have to do that together. And I fully mean this, we have to learn to listen to one another. And we have to learn to disagree with one another. Because we're all isolated, and we're all alone. This year has done that to us. And social media has put us in these echo chambers. And we aren't built to be alone and we're not built to be isolated. And don't hear me say that and put down the Coronavirus because that's a real thing. And I know people that have lost people to the virus, however, we've got to get so much better, and we need to do it now.

We need to figure out how to hear one another again. We've forgotten how to listen to each other. And I think because of that we've forgotten how to listen to the voice of the Divine because you and I bear a small piece of that voice. I mean, that's what the Bible is full of, right? It's full of people speaking as the mouthpiece of God; the prophets, and the priests, Jesus.

So what does that have to do with today's episode? So Forrest clay is on the show. And Forrest has shared a EP with me and you're going to hear some of that music, with his permission, interwoven into the episode. And I'm going to tell you, these songs are haunting because I hear my story. And I know from emailing and talking with many of you your story in the songs. I hear the stories of my friends in the songs, and I lament the church in these songs. It was not a happy EP, but I think it matters. Here we go, welcome to the show, an episode with Forrest Clay.

Seth Price 5:47

Clay, welcome to the show man. I'm terrified by your last name, so we're not gonna do it. People can look in the show notes, we're not gonna do that. But…I don't even know what day it is…this it's the middle of December. It's almost Christmas. It's late (in the evening). You just got off work. I just put all the kids to bed. We're both exhausted. But I figured this is probably the best time to have a conversation because why not.

Forrest Clay 6:09

Yes, no promises that mind won't come traipsing through the door here.

Seth Price 6:13

We'll just have them be on the show. Anyway, man, welcome. Thanks for coming onto the show. And, Marty, I don't think Marty's listened to any of these episodes. He'll tell me that he will. But he'll listen to this one because he's friends with you. So, Marty, thanks for putting us together. But yeah, man, who are you? Like people that are listening may or may not know who you are? What are you? Who are you? Why are you?

Forrest Clay 6:38

My name is Clay Kirchenbauer. And I am getting ready to release music under the name Forrest Clay because Kirchenbauer is far too hard to spell and Forrest is my first name. So I am from a little town in Ohio, kind of between Toledo and Cleveland lived here for 20 years since junior high and grew up in a fundamental Baptist household, you know, the type.

Seth Price 7:05

I am the type.

Forrest Clay 7:07

You are the type!

Okay, so I once I played I played basketball for my high school, my Christian High School. And there were multiple occasions where we would play road games where I would have to wear pants in the basketball game. So that gives you the idea of kind of my background.

Seth Price 7:24

Why pants I've never had to wear pants in a basketball game?

Forrest Clay 7:29

Yeah, well, male calves can be very sexual! (Seth begins to crack up laughing)

Seth Price 7:36

(through laughter) To whom? The players, the participants, the spectators?

Forrest Clay 7:41

If that's what you're into. So, now we didn't have to do that at our home games. But my wife, who I met in high school, she can attest to the very long cheerleading skirts that they had to wear. I think they did loosen up and let them wear pants my senior yeah. Well, you get the picture. So that's where I come from, yes.

So my musical background. My parents, my dad, is an incredible piano player, my mom gave voice lessons. And we grew up being dragged around from Baptist Church to Baptist Church, you know, just singing songs, and I'd be forced to be up front and sing songs. And my mother's dad was like a Baptist church planter. And so her whole life was she never lived anywhere longer than three years. They would, you know, move somewhere, plant a church and leave. And so that was just their whole background. I only moved once as a kid but, you know, that was kind of our childhood.

And then as I graduated, and moved on to like a big box evangelical church and spent 10 years as a music minister there. And through all that time, I was in a band called The Undeserving. And that's a whole ‘nother podcast story. But we had a major record deal with Warner Brothers Records, and we got to tour the country and did all sorts of cool stuff. But it was six years of misery and being broke. And when we were finally able to get off the label in 2012, it was a big relief.

And somewhere around 2015 I left the church I was at through all that time, as I was kind of beginning my deconstruction. Which for me started with creation theology. And, you know, being shocked the first time I found out there were Christians who didn't think the earth was 6000 years old.

Seth Price 9:39

There definitely are.

Forrest Clay 9:40

Yes, yes. I can tell you that my epiphany was watching a debate between John Lennox and Christopher Hitchens and it was all fascinating to me, but then when they both agreed that the Earth was old, I was absolutely dumbfounded. And that's kind of where my ball of yarn started unraveling.

Seth Price 10:02

Yeah. So you've been married how long now?

Forrest Clay 10:04

We got married in 2007.

And so thirteen years of calf induced marital bliss is what you're telling us, right? (Forrest cracks up)

Forrest Clay 10:14

Yeah, that's right. It was the calves? Yes.

Seth Price 10:19

Oh, man, there's been a lot of firsts set on the show. Nobody's ever called calves sexual.

Forrest Clay 10:25

I had no plans of mentioning that when you hit record, and it just kind of came out. So you're welcome.

Seth Price 10:31

You know, it's [begins laughing again]. So I do want to I want to circle back on some of that. So first, what do you mean by big box evangelical church? Like, that's, like big box for me is like Best Buy, Walmart, Sam's Club.

Forrest Clay 10:46

So, I would probably just refer to that as anything in the generally more theological, and politically, conservative churches that are along the lines of like a Bethel or even like Andy Stanley's type of theology, but, like any, that's a big range I get but you know, that kind of thing. Very American. Conservative leaning evangelical churches with all the lights and the show and the sound and yeah, that kind of deal.

Seth Price 11:16

Yeah, got it. Got it. Yeah. Okay, I can get with you there. I've been in those churches. Sometimes those are fun when I want to be entertained. I've never really grown in those churches. But you can be entertained very, very easily. I didn't know you were in a band called The Undeserving. I know, you said that's an entirely separate podcast, what kind of music is that? As soon as we're done, I'm going to Spotify or YouTube, and I'm going to binge it because that’s what I do.

Forrest Clay 11:38

Sure, so we were like a piano pop band. And I had written a few pop songs that we had kind of had recorded somewhere in like, 2006, 2007…it was ‘06, it was before I got married. And these songs kind of got in the hands of some Christian labels and that kind of thing. And we had label interest before we had played a show together, just because of these. Like, I just went to Nashville and recorded these songs, you know, before we even had really formed a band, that kind of thing.

And so we spent two years, just working our butts off, playing as many shows as possible. And then finally, kind of got in the right position, met the right people, and were able to sign a major deal. And we had a lot of amazing experiences. The only real claim to fame I have is we were able to pay off our record advance with TV placements, which is kind of like unheard of in these these days. But our record never got released till after we were off of the label. But we paid back our advances by having songs on all sorts of big TV shows, American Idol, big network shows that licensed a few of our songs. So chances are you actually heard a few of the songs, but you have no idea.

Seth Price 12:59

Yeah, so we're gonna pivot from there. But after I'm done recording, I'm going to listen to that. Yeah, because why not? Yeah, that's fascinating. So I will say, I like to sing. And I want to pivot, I want to drill down in some of your lyrics, because I think that's going to kind of unravel just faith in general, because your lyrics; and I think I told you this when we started talking a little bit earlier, whenever the month was November, beginning of December. Like, dude, you can write! I'm assuming these are all you like, there's no like co-writers, like you're just, yeah, yeah. And I also like, anyway, so we'll get there.

So before I get there, though, I can't sing as high as you. I tried actually in the car to sing with you. And it just didn't work. It didn't work. So as a singer, what amount of confidence does one need to go up to that falsetto that you seem to do just because you feel like you know, yeah, we're 10 seconds in let's do this. Let's just hit the falsetto let's just sustain it for a minute and then drop back down. What amount of confidence is required for that? Just for those that want to try to be a singer?

Forrest Clay 14:06

Well, yeah, what you're not hearing there is the, you know, hour of like vocal exercises that I'm doing before I sing. So this summer, even in the midst of COVID I played to make a living I started doing cover shows at like winery’s. So we live up by the lake in Ohio, by Lake Erie and there's wineries all over the place. And so I kind of finally bit the bullet and put together like three hours of covers and I would you know, sprinkle some original songs in there sometimes. And singing for three hours straight is something that I had never done before. And it was bad at first (but) by the end of the summer it was no problem at all. And even weeks where I had, you know, two or three shows like that third show was like better than the first one. Man your voice is the muscle. So if you let it sit It goes bad and mine does it to me. My shows have all ended because its winter and cold. And you're not allowed to play music indoors in Ohio right now, which is fantastic and awful. And so I basically sing two songs a week on Sunday mornings at the church I'm currently at, and I will often have voice cracks and like, it just gets, if you don't exercise it, it gets bad.

Seth Price 16:07

I agree. So I lead the worship at my church as a lead, I sing probably the bulk of the music. And yeah, for a while you're in a rhythm. And then I didn't sing or play the guitar for like, four months, because of the lock downs, everything. And then when we finally were able to get back together, I think like late September, I tried to sing. And I just decided to try to sing like, some songs that should have been in my range. And then when I tried to play them, I was like, I don't…I don't…what's happening in there? I don't see where did you go friend, come back. So I sang in the car for like a month, the same song over and over and over and over again. And eventually it came back. But I still don't have that range.

But I will say so I was playing it even tonight. And I was just sitting there trying to hum with a falsetto. I couldn't do it, it pissed me off. So I'm slightly jealous, slightly angry. It's enough to make me anyway, it just makes me angry.

Anyway, so the recovery EP, what are you trying to do? What's its purpose? What's its point? Because the songs or the songs are fantastic. So thanks for sending them. For those listening I've been able to listen. And for those that are listening, they may not currently, depending on when this episode comes out, be able to hear all of them. What are you trying to get at? What are you trying to rip apart and kind of why?

Forrest Clay 17:23

Sure. So like I said, I spent most of my life in, you know, fundamentalist type of environments, and my parents are wonderful people. And I think though, when you're kind of in that environment, it's hard to avoid trauma in many aspects, you know, just the rules, not just the rules, but the control the power dynamics, and I just kind of began really to see the church line itself up with conservative politics. And me kind of spending most of my life as you know, a conservative, all of a sudden, I should say that I wrote this, I wrote most of this, EP shortly after the 2016 election. So it's been sitting in my laptop for several years.

So I think I wrote recover sometime right after the 2016 election. And so at that point, I had, as my theological beliefs had, deconstructed that led me also out of conservative politics. And as I watched the church line itself up with conservative politics, it just was painful to me. And like, so many people have expressed all of those things of, you know, watching your friends and your family who had instilled these, you know, kind of wonderful values into you; values like kindness and respect and nobility and honor and faithfulness elect someone then who didn't represent any of those things. And, you know, just like many people, especially many people my age that was enough for me to just have a good cry and sit and write some songs about it. And that was kind of the start of it for sure.

Seth Price 19:02

I think that's what just before but the lyric where I can't remember why I was driving to work actually pulled over at an exon to rewind it because I was listening you know, in Dropbox, and I can't control the the slider. But the lyric in Recover, which will most likely be out by the time this airs because…

Forrest Clay 19:21

Yeah, it's out now.

Seth Price 19:21

Perfect. Yeah. So the lyric is can I read your own lyrics back to you? So you said

I learned from a book that you would take in the heart out of

I'm assuming you mean the Bible there…

That's how I learned how to make exclusion look like love.

And that last line, like, I think it's the way you actually sing the word love that like it, it just the timber just falls off like it just it just falters. Like it just falls on its knees and just like rolls on the floor. I don't know. There's just, but I can remember so What are you getting at there? So what in the church that you grew up in is making exclusion look like love? And I say that tongue in cheek because I agree with you.

Forrest Clay 20:01

Yes, it kind of stems from that idea of like, hate the sin, love the sinner. You know, that kind of idea. I specifically remember one specific instance, where someone had like, messaged our churches Facebook page, and they had asked about, you know, they were in the LGBTQ community or someone that they live with or something like this. And they were just wondering, like, what the church's position was on it.

Seth Price 20:32

This church you were singing at (working in)?

Forrest Clay 20:34

Sure, yeah. And, obviously, I kind of knew that what-that position was, and I wasn’t the one responding, but I had access to the Facebook page, so I could see the interaction. And I just remember them, giving kind of like that generic like, “everyone is welcome here” response that is so common. And they asked for a follow up like, “no, what is your actual like are we welcomed there?” Like, are we affirmed there?

Seth Price 20:58

Can I take communion there? Can I get married? If we adopt a kid can they be baptized here?

Forrest Clay 21:02

Exactly. And, to me, that's kind of what that lyric is. Maybe not that specific instance. But like, those kind of examples happen so often, and I just got tired of seeing friends and family not be welcomed. And that's what that line is.

Seth Price 21:23

Yeah. What changes for you now? You said you lead two songs a Sunday or whatever, at your church versus when you were leading worship at a big box, evangelical church. I like that actually, my wife uses the word doc-in-a-box for the emergent care, I'm going to use big box for the church thing.

Forrest Clay 21:43

I don’t know where I heard that but I like it.

Seth Price 21:44

I like it. Well, you can take doc-in-a-box every time I say like, Ooh, I like that. I'm like, Yes, just pop in, pop out, get a prescription. Let's go back in a box. Let's make it happen. What is the biggest difference that you found? where you're like, Yeah, when I'm singing, I'm leading worship in I'm assuming a smaller church? I don't know?

Forrest Clay 21:59

Yes. So I'm in the United Methodist Church right now. And I reluctantly got asked to do this, like, I think a year and a half ago. So I went from the big church to a smaller version of kind of a similar denomination, spent a year there, left that church. (Then) spent another year in Alliance church, who, the pastor, they're still one of my good friends, and then really didn't, you know, they still theologically I was kind of already progressing past kind of where they were at. But I loved what they did in their community. And it was like the first time that I really just appreciated a congregation as a whole under the leadership. But I still, like theologically, I still was kind of just like, I don't believe any of this stuff anymore. And so then I got asked to do this worship service you know, at this United Methodist Church in town. And I did not want to do it at all.

But, you know, the music business is not much of a business for many of us. And so I called the pastor and I just for the first time ever, I was just like, “Hey, this is where I'm at. And if you want me to come do this, then you got to be okay with it.”

Seth Price 23:13

Theologically?

Forrest Clay 23:14

Yes, theologically, politically, and all of those things, and it worked out great. And so, you know, it's not a full time job or anything like that. But it's something I do on Sunday mornings. And now we have a drive-in service because a COVID.

Seth Price 23:27

A driv-in service, what is this?

Forrest Clay 23:29

Most of our congregation are, you know, elderly or, you know, boomers and that kind of thing. And so, we've just been extra really careful with COVID. And so we have a, like an outdoor shelter house, like a little like a little canopy type thing that somebody donated and we have a FM wireless transmitter and a couple microphones and we just everybody drives in and stays in their cars and we do church like that. That's what we do. We pass out little communion cups and then have like two songs, a 20 minute sermon, communion, and we're out of there.

Seth Price 24:07

You're doing the sermon too?

Forrest Clay 24:09

I don't do the sermon. No, no, no, no one would want that!

Seth Price 24:15

He's preaching in here!

Seth Price 24:16

Give me a minute. We'll be right back.

Seth Price 25:09

I want to talk about Dear God (I mean “Does God”).

Forrest Clay 25:12

Okay.

Seth Price 25:13

Mostly, so the first time I listened to it, I liked it okay. But as I've listened to it more and more and more, I've listened to it like once a day now. I actually have some feedback that has nothing to do with the episode. Let me just tell you that because it's probably just me. I really thought at the end, you're going to begin naming John, and everyone else from “You Must Go”.

Forrest Clay 25:36

Oh, yeah. I didn’t even think about that!

Seth Price

Anyhow, just to kind of tie it all together. But I realized that you wrote them all at separate times. And so, maybe not. But at the end, it was actually yesterday, I think I thought about I was like, why don't you just pull in the same names anyway, it doesn't matter. You could rerecord it. Why not? But, Dear God, what is that? Kind of what's the why behind that? What are you trying to get out there?

Forrest Clay 25:58

Sure. So the song's called “Does God”, sorry.

Seth Price 26:02

Oh, “Dear God”. I can't read without my glasses on.

Forrest Clay 26:04

That's okay. Totally fine. “Does God” was the most recent song and I wrote that song after reading The Universal Christ. And I also read Michael Gungor’s book This. And I've really been drawn to the idea of, you know, obviously, Richard Rohr is such a giant in theology, and he's impacted my world greatly. But I've really been drawn to the idea of like, panentheism versus kind of like pantheism and dissecting the differences and kind of hopping back and forth. But just the idea that we are the universe observing itself. But then also that God is among us and is us.

And I love Richard roars line that, you know,

God loves things by becoming them

And that line really jumped at me. And in so “Does God” is basically a series of questions, followed by the only affirmation, or the only really answer, I have is that like, this moment that we're in is God in the sense that like, this is what we experienced. This is the universe as it is, this is the gift, if that makes any sense at all. That was kind of a ramble. But yeah, and so like, as I go through the bridge, and I name kind of people and groups of people, especially I tried to be culturally diverse, I did my best. I mentioned (in) the first line is kind of maybe jumps out at people as like a weird rhyme. Russ and his husband, Gus. That's my uncle Russ and his husband, Gus. And his daughter, Alexis did the Recover art and she is doing the art for “Does God” as well, it will be released as a single with a full string arrangement and everything for orchestration. And so all that to say, that's where that song comes from, it really was inspired by those two books. And I'm really excited for it Seth.

Seth Price 28:07

I have not read This. I have listened to portions of that podcast “This”. But I haven't read it. I want you to rip apart a lyric in verse two. So the lyric is

did God kill his kid?

Which the word kid there really hits hard for me? Because that's so…that's my boy. Like, it's different. It's almost different than “son” and it's more personal.

Did he have to have blood before he could forgive? Maybe we made a God to look like us.

Forrest Clay 28:38

Sure.

Seth Price 28:39

What do you think that God looks like? Like what have we as a people as a church as a nation as a faith as a whatever metaphor that you want to put on that? Like, what do you think we've made God look like? And then where should we pivot?

Forrest Clay 28:50

Absolutely. Well, I think through you know, obviously much of history, and including Old Testament history, God is quite vengeful. And I think for me when I started to go down the penal substitution road and start to really analyze that and deconstruct that it became less and less meaningful to me and more and more traumatizing. And you know, what did it for me on that was…there's a meme going around, and it's Jesus knocking at a door. I don’t know if you've seen this.

Seth Price 29:26

Oh yes, it’s repurposed often I like the Halloween one.

Forrest Clay 29:30

I don’t know if I’ve seen that one.

Seth Price 29:33

It's him trick or treating. He's holding a bucket. And they, you know, they redo the words to make it but it really does make me laugh at times.

Forrest Clay 29:38

Yes, you know, the meme.

Seth Price 29:39

It's really inappropriate, but I love it.

Forrest Clay 29:41

Totally. And so, that was like, okay, how can God use violence for good? It goes against God's nature completely. And so that line, you know, is about maybe God is not like this. Maybe we want God to be like this because that's how we are and I just tried to do my best to express that in that second verse.

Seth Price 30:07

Yeah, the other song and I think this is the one that I messaged you about, “Go”. I don't necessarily want you to give away the song. But can you kind of tell me the heart behind that song? Because, again, I want to leave people wanting something.

Forrest Clay 30:23

So that song, “You Must Go” comes from personal experiences watching people no longer feel welcome within the church. And yeah, the first verse is about a gay man, second verse is about someone who deconstructs and then the third verse is about a black woman you know, in a white culture and kind of their stories on how they no longer fit in and can't stay in the church is there at.

Seth Price 30:52

As a worship pastor, um, that's what I’m calling you right now, because why not? You're still leading worship. Once a pastor always a pastor. Do you see hope at all after say, COVID is done or three years from now everybody's taken the vaccine because why not? And things are back to whatever somewhat of normalcy because I don't know that I have much hope for the church, which is really scary because I like my church. I like the community there. I like that my church also sounds like similar to yours, where I'm allowed to question. I'm also allowed to say I'm not singing a song. Because I have an issue with some of that.

Forrest Clay 31:24

I do that all the time.

Seth Price 31:25

Yeah, outside of the you know, and recording right before Christmas, like I'm not singing Mary Did You Know. I just, I hate that song, and I'm not gonna sing it…

Forrest Clay 31:34

Agreed

Seth Price 31:35

…ever. If Hell is real, that song is on repeat on vinyl, the nice vinyl. So do you find any hope at all, or do you think there is any hope at all for people like me, people like you people who've listened to the show that are like, I can't? Like I've deconstructed, I'm on the other side, God is something entirely different. And the reason I ask that question is, there's a lyric in the song where you say, you know,

we love you, but we can't love you. And so you must go.

And I think that that's really the attitude and the posture of a lot of churches, yeah, on both ends on both the conservative end and on the progressive end. Because if you're not accepting enough, we can't love you, you've got to go. And if you're, you know, if you love the wrong gender, can't love you, we must go, you know, so do you see anything, what hope is there?

Forrest Clay 32:24

I find lots and lots of hope in individuals who do amazing things who sacrifice and are committed to serving their communities and the people around them. I find lots of hope in those types of things. I don't find hope in the system of the church and its hierarchies.

You know, obviously, I say that as someone who now is in a mainline denomination. I have hoped for some denominations more than others. But as a whole, like the church as a whole, I think is going to have to do some massive self examination over the next few years, especially if the statistics are obvious, like, you know, young people are leaving in droves. And, you know, myself included, and I think mass self examination is due.

The hard part is, to me, much of its tie to conservative politics is rooted in some sort of theology as well. And I think it's hard to separate those two things. And a lot of people smarter than I have tried [to] analyzed that. But I think those two things are going to have to be broken. Like I think theologically conservative people are going to have to figure out how to disconnect their conservative theology from the conservative politics.

I think that also goes the other way as well. But you know, they're the ones that elected Donald Trump and I think that is that has to be reckoned with on some level. Absolutely.

Seth Price 34:05

You said you grew up Fundamentalist Baptist. I grew up Independent Baptist, which is, you know,

Forrest Clay 34:12

The same.

Seth Price 34:14

Oh, there we go. A lot of people like yeah, that's even more...

Forrest Clay 34:16

We were independent fundamental videos, both words were included.

Seth Price 34:20

I think ours was Independent Regular Baptist. I don't even know what regular Baptists are. All I know is we look down at a lot of other people. If there was a high church, we thought we were it (Clay laughs). And we definitely were not. But we thought we were. And yeah, so I have found it hard to reconcile any conversations about faith because we just I just don't agree. And I butt heads with so many different things. So you said that, you know, you grew up and that's just like, ingrained in your family. How has it been both writing music in the way that this is because I have to assume you've let your family listen? And then like, where are you at with that? How do you navigate through that or they like “Yeah, no, we support you 100% it sounds pretty good, he's gonna burn in hell or is it the opposite way?

Forrest Clay 35:07

It's a continual discussion and continual process that will probably continue for a long time. Our relationships are rooted in love. And I think that is more than some people have. And for that, I'm very grateful.

Seth Price 35:26

Yeah, what song on this album was the hardest for you to actually sing, not necessarily, write but to sing..

Forrest Clay 35:30

Recover. Recover, to me is the most raw expression of of pain. I think we have a culture, we've developed a culture, especially in church circles, where we are so oblivious you know and ignorant, of other people's pain. God we are seeing that all over the place now with racial issues, and just the inability to empathize. And God I wrote this song so long ago, it's hard for me to really remember the whole process but it didn't take me very long. I remember these lyrics coming out very quickly, which is not normal for me. And I remember lots of tears writing them, it was a really just a raw expression of pain, you know what I mean?

And just like saying, I'm gonna write this song that's really free of metaphor. There's no guessing what I'm talking about here, you know? And just like, hey, this is this is what I see. And it hurts. And I don't know how to process it totally. And honestly, even the last line was hard to write.

I think there's a way for us to love and heal the world.

Sometimes I think that,

Seth Price 36:41

Yeah, well, again, this song as well, that I won't do it anymore that falsetto. I'm just telling you, man that falsetto. Your falsetto is the calves of singing. It's the calves of the album. (Clay laughs)

Yeah, it's there.

So you talked about young earth creationism? What are some of the other things that you're like? Nope, that is total BS. Like, there's no way that that even matters? (laughs again) Like, what are some of those other things?

Forrest Clay 37:07

End times theology? Man, it's been a while since I've talked about these things. I mean, creation theology is the easiest one for me to talk about. Because I spent several years going through it even while still at my church. One of my older songs, from my previous EP, the last music I put out, like three years ago, was called the Creation EP, and there's a song on there called, I forget what it’s called…the first track. And you know, it was written the chorus line is

everyone was made to feel 14 billion years of love.

And, you know, I wrote that song at my church in the choir room, you know, and this is the church that didn't hold those beliefs. And that process for me was, like I said earlier, just that epiphany of this is not matching up with the reality that I observe on a daily basis. And then I spent several years kind of going down that pathway going from like, oh, there's this old earth creationism. And then there's, you know, there's like, the Biologos people and, you know, etc. And I kind of went through all of those phases. At one point or another.

Seth Price 38:21

I mirror, or I can echo, a lot of that. Remember, for me, it was a virgin birth that was the first thing.

Forrest Clay 38:28

Yeah that a big one,

Seth Price 38:30

Right?

Yeah. And then when I realized I'm like, wait, so that's, oh, damn said that he just missed translated a bad translation. And then Jerome put it in? Because that's, and that's my whole bio, and your Bible. And what that come on, come on! I can remember people getting me they're like, why can't you just let it leave it alone? I was like, leave it alone. Like, do you understand, like, context matters.

You want me to leave it alone? Like Snapchat, and 1000 years from now, nobody will know what that is without context. So don't tell me leave it alone.

Forrest Clay 39:02

Even the Gospels in the life of Jesus, you have, you know, 30 years between when he was here and when these people wrote this stuff down. Thirty years at best, really is what we're talking about. And so, just those ideas like, okay, what what do I misremember from three years? What are the most powerful moments of my life that I misremember, or that get blown out of proportion? You know, I remember that I scored 25 points in that game where I had to wear pants, you know what I mean? But I may have only scored 13. I don't remember.

But all of that to say. This is why Richard Rohr, again, has been so meaningful. For me it literalism is the lowest form of meaning. And that has saved whatever semblance of faith that I have that has allowed me to see the Gospels and the Jesus story in a way that the questions I asked about it are no longer you know, did it happen or not? Because that mean so much less to me then how can my life be transformed by the love and mystery of this story?

Seth Price 40:10

Yeah. So I got just a couple more questions, and then I'll give you back to your evening, because what are we at? I mean, remember, are you're in the same time zone as me or no?

Forrest Clay 40:20

Yes. Eastern.

Seth Price 40:21

So definitely we're coming on 10:30. So someone sits down, they light a candle, because that's the way I like to listen to music. I'm one of those, like, someone just recommended to me, the new Colony House. First off, I had never listened to Colony House, ever. I didn't know that was a band. And he’s just like listen to this one song. And I'm like, nope, I have to start at number one. I assume that every song has a purpose. And maybe they don't and I loved it. So someone sits down, they load up the EP when it's finally out. And in a minute, I'm going to ask you how we can help make that happen. Because I think people should hear these songs. Like I feel selfish that I've heard the songs because I genuinely was so moved. What do you want them to be at the end, like so they start with Recover and they end with…I don't know if the songs are in the same order that I have?

Forrest Clay 41:08

“Does God” is the final song.

Seth Price 41:10

Okay. Yeah, that's not the last one that I've been listening to. So what do you want them to walk away with? Like, when they sit down they turn it off And they're like, ah, like, what are you trying to evoke?

Forrest Clay 41:20

Well, I think for one thing, I hope people can listen in process. And that, that they can process that these songs are all expressions of grief, and pain and loss. I would not call this a happy EP.

Seth Price 41:35

No, no, it's not your other one was. The strings, it's beautiful. This one is very sad.

Forrest Clay 41:41

And so I don't like want to fool people into thinking that they're gonna feel better after this, I do hope that people can hear it, in that it allows them to put some sort of language on the experiences that they've had and haven't been able to process for themselves. That they can go, I went through that, and now I see it, you know, like this song helps me see that I went through that, and that I'm not alone.

Because that's the reality. The reality is you're not alone, you know, and that my story is not unique, unfortunately. And that's really my ultimate hope. Whether or not like, people leave, I put Does God on the EP last because I do feel like it's my most hopeful song. And I do want people to leave feeling less alone. But it is an expression of pain and loss. For sure.

Seth Price 42:37

As I was listening I was like I've been there. I've been there had that conversation last week did an episode on that one. That one before read a book on that one? And yeah, so yeah, so definitely.

If you're going to say what God is, and you're like, alright, I as Clay, I've got this figured out, like, what are you going to say? So if I asked you what is who is how, whatever that is?

Forrest Clay 42:57

What is God?

Seth Price 42:59

Yeah, why not? What is that?

Forrest Clay 42:59

I would say that God is all. Like my shirt says “love is all”. God is love. And God is all.

Seth Price 43:07

Where do you want people to go? How do we maybe help get the dang thing? Like, what do you need them to do to? Like, how does this happen? Where do you want people to go do the things?

Forrest Clay 43:16

Sure. So Recover is out right now. And it's on all of the streaming services. There's a lyric video on YouTube. The easiest way, I don't know when you're going to air this, but we are going to start a GoFundMe or a Kickstarter to help basically put the rest of the EP out. So by the time this airs, I will have that up. And you'll be able to find all that information on any of my social media sites. So the easiest way if you use linktree, and that will have all of the links. You ever seen linktree before?

Seth Price 43:45

I have. I even tried to make one once and I was like, I don't like this.

Forrest Clay 43:49

Yeah, it's super easy, especially like for like Twitter it doesn't work as good on Facebook. But so link tree.com slash Forrest Clay, that's Forrest with two R's. That will have a link to every one of my sites, Facebook, Twitter, but generally, you're going to find me at Forest Clay Music on any of the sites. And so by the time this airs, we will have whatever information we need to get the rest of this thing funded. And I don't really need a ton of money to finish it. But I do need some.

Seth Price 44:14

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We'll count me in because I think it needs to get heard. Yeah, absolutely. And you send me the link. And I mean, that count me in. Yeah. And that's in here now, because I can't edit it out of the video. So I'm committed. Yeah. Clay, thank you so much for your time. And for your trust in sending me your music. I really appreciate it. And thanks for coming on, man.

Forrest Clay 44:35

Thank you appreciate it.

Seth Price 44:37

I thought about many ways to end this episode. And there's going to be this request. And it's the one that I often make, but this show is produced by the patrons of the show, and recently by a little bit of ad revenue. And I am so very thankful for that. I can't even express how thankful like this is a thing and I can do this because of you all if you You get anything at all out of these episodes, considered chipping in a cheap coffee a month and helping the show to grow. Another easy way that you can help this show grow and reach more people is just share it on social media, share it with friends and family. Share it with people in your church or your faith community that are also wrestling with some big things, especially this year. Where you can rate and review it on iTunes it costs very little time and absolutely no money but it does help. Now I struggled as I said a minute ago with what to say to in this episode because because I used to be I feel like I used to be better at closing opening the episodes but I just sit down in front of this microphone. I say what's on my heart as I keep the episode in mind and I just reflect on the day or the week and one of the songs and I think it was referenced in the episode is called “Oh Church”, but I find it a song that seems to speak quite well to the way that I feel at least for today. Take care be blessed. I'll talk with you next week.