Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Bob Doto 0:07
What's the outcome of a society that really appreciates the movement of the Spirit? Is that kind of what you are asking? Well, it's a lot less determined. You know, the outcomes are a lot less determined, because the Spirit doesn't work, if we go according to the stories, the Spirit doesn't abide by the rules that we wish it would all the time. You know? So if there's a true appreciation of the movement of the Spirit, then it would mean that, in theory, we'd be a lot more flexible as far as like what outcomes are going to happen or what outcomes might happen. So that there'd be room to kind of negotiate those. So if I expect you to be a certain way, then if you are not that way, then it's very difficult for me to engage with you. But if I appreciate the fact that there is something else working between us here, then it gives me room, it gives you room, to live, to be.
Seth Price 1:07
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Seth Price 1:19
Hello, you beautiful people. Welcome back to the Can I Say This At Church podcast, I am Seth, you are you. And we're doing this thing. Thanks for downloading.
January has been a fantastic month for the show gotten so many emails, and new contacts. And, ohhhh, I'm really enjoying this, I can't express how much I really love doing this podcast and doing some semblance of life and faith in an online community. And I'm thankful for it, especially last year and as this year has begun it has been really important to have communities like this and an outlet like this, so thank you. This show is produced 100% by the patrons of the show, and a little bit by ad revenue. And I'm going to come back to that in a minute. But I did want to take a moment before we got going. And thank the newest patrons of the show, both Robert Smith and Rhonda Hufnagel. And I'm really bad with names. So I hope I got that right. But Robert, and Rhonda, thank you so much for your patronage. I cannot express how needed that is and it's people like you that allowed this show to go.
Now I know over this last month, and maybe in some of the back catalogue, there have been some ads on the show. And that ad revenue has been needed to continue to help the show function and grow a bit. I have bigger plans for the show this year. And all of that has a cost. And I'm sure there's a level of patron support that would make that not a thing. But we're just not there, I ran the numbers and it's just not. But as people like Rhonda and Robert and the other wonderful humans that are on patron continue to make this show thing. Hopefully the ads can go away.
In the meantime, I did want to say every patron of any level gets an ad free version of the show. And they also get a couple other versions of the show. There are different levels there where you can get discounts on any merchandise, there's a level where I just send you a shirt or a mug or whatever you want from the store and I'm happy to do so. So consider doing that. And if you can't, I totally get it. I totally get it.
So today, I brought on Bob Doto. Now he was referred to me by a friend of the show, and just overall good human being Mike Morrell. And Bob and I talked about something that I'm really uncomfortable with based on the religious and spiritual upbringing that I am accustomed to, of spirits and spirituality in a way of like literally speaking and resting and communicating and interacting with spirits. And Bob wrote a book called Sitting With Spirits. And that is some of what is informing this episode, but it is way outside of my comfort zone. And those episodes are the ones that I'm really the most pleased with because the and those episodes are the ones that I'm really the most pleased with because I stretch the most as a human. So I hope you enjoy it. Hope that you get something out of it, I know I sure did. And there here go.
Seth Price 4:35
Bob Doto welcome to the show. Thank you to Mike for putting us in contact with each other. Mike's a great guy. I enjoyed reading your book. I'm thankful for your patience with me being tardy to our scheduled time tonight. So but yeah, man, I'm glad to have you on and welcome to the show.
Bob Doto 4:52
Thanks so much. Yeah, thanks for having me here.
Seth Price 4:53
Yeah, who is Bob? Like if you're like, yeah, alright, so we've got a minute and take as many minutes as you need. Like who, what, why are Bob? And that's a broken sentence on purpose?
Bob Doto 5:06
Yeah, I mean, there's a like most people, there's an seemingly infinite number of facets to that. But I mean, really, you know, as far as the work and the book is concerned, you know, I'm someone who's been interested in spiritual things since I was a teenager and just kind of followed those threads wherever they led me. So that led me to a whole bunch of places, through my teens, and 20s, and 30s, and now I'm 42. And all that went far and beyond what my sort of cultural upbringing, which was, I guess, Roman Catholic, essentially, though we were not, I wouldn't say practicing we were more like cultural. I always called us cultural Catholics. But, you know, I went and explored all sorts of religious and spiritual traditions and practices and communities and stuff. And then, you know, the past 10 years was really starting to reinvestigate that kind of like root religion, you know. So that's what I've been doing mostly, but there's so many other parts to talk about.
Seth Price 6:10
What do you mean root religion being Catholicism, or root religion being something else?
Bob Doto 6:16
So I use the term root religion for the religion that people are born into So not root religion in any sort of historical sense. I just mean, like, a person's personal root religion.
Seth Price 6:26
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. I think there are a lot of people that are culturally religious. And I've come to realize that religious literacy, regardless of the religion, seems to be relatively low. I used to think it was just a Christian thing, where people, you know, really studied and dug into their faith, and I'm coming to find that that's just not true. A lot of religions are that way, like, you were born this or born that and so that's what you are. And when you start pressing into the harder topics, the questions and answers just seem really, really, really shallow, which is really discouraging, I think.
Bob Doto 7:07
Yeah, you know, I think religion, you know, I see religion as culture, you know, I see it as a fundamental aspect of culture. And in some ways it is culture. So people kind of perform their culture and their religion in the ways that they do you know, whether they know the nuances and the philosophies, and the history and the myriad of voices that speak for that tradition. That seems to definitely be low. You know? But it's not everyone's thing, you know?
Seth Price 7:37
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So your book Sitting with Spirits. I think I got that name right. I have the digital copy so I've had to memorize the name that is the name right, Sitting with Spirits?
Bob Doto 7:45
Sitting with Spirits: Exploring the Margins of the Unseen Margins of Christianity.
Seth Price 7:51
Yeah. So I saw the book title, I was like, I don't know what's happening here. I read the first chapter. I was like…arggg.. so my upbringing, my cultural root, had nothing to do like we talked about the Holy Spirit at Pentecost that one week, just that one week, the rest of the time, we're just talking about Jesus, like, we're not talking about it any other time. So, like, I'm very anxious for the conversation, because we are well outside of both my comfort zone and my knowledge, if that makes any sense. Because I still like to dive in to “head” things. Do you find that common as you talk about, not spirituality, necessarily, but spirits with people?
Bob Doto 8:32
Um, I mean, yes, and no, it really depends what circles I'm in. You know, the circles that I tend to hang out in, are pretty friendly to those kinds of ideas and practices and experiences. So in that sense, I don't really bump up against much. But when I get into more, and these are, of course, people who have explored multiple religious traditions typically. So, they’ve sort of like been around other ones that might have had more of an affinity to that kind of subject matter. So they're a little more maybe used to it.
But I've certainly noticed, with this book, that when it's in the hands of Christians, people who have been raised Christian and kind of like, maintain that thread throughout their life, that it can be a little bit tricky, you know, which is fine. You know, which is great. You know I’m happy to talk about that.
Seth Price 9:20
So why do you think that is? Because I can't put my finger on it outside of like, I don't know. Like, I asked a friend that is, like Pentecostal and way more charismatic than me. And he's like, Oh, yeah, man. Oh, and he just kept talking. I was like, it's a different language. Like it's so like, why? Why do you think that is?
Bob Doto 9:41
Well, I mean, I think first off, it's it's a time(ing), historical issue, like the idea of spirits is not really in favor right now. You know what I mean, or it hasn’t been in the past 100 years. But you know, we get back into the 1800s and stuff like that, the idea of spirits becomes much more fluid conversation, you know, there's much more of a belief in that these things might be, you know, real. Whereas today, it's not really appreciated at that level. So there's that and certainly within Christianity, as a whole, different threads of it have emphasized different aspects of the teachings. Some, like you said, some it's just Jesus centric, some it's Old Testament stuff, you know, some of its charismatic, so the Holy Spirit, you know. And then you've got like spiritualism and I think it really just depends like, what the flavor of your community was and where their emphasis was.
Seth Price 10:38
So in your first chapter, you use the word rosary, but I've only ever used that word as like the beads like, right, correct, like the rosary beads. But you seem to be using the word rosary in a way that are implying that the whole...and just for context, for those that haven't read the book, and you should stop doing get it. Because it really is a challenging book, at least. For me. You're talking about being at a get would you call it a seance? I guess, I don't know what you would call that. Maybe I don't, I don't know. (Bob laughs) But you're using the word rosary. And it seems to be a different thing other than like, the beads. So what what are you doing there?
Bob Doto 11:14
Right. So that might be just kind of a scene thing. A rosary is the beads but to say a rosary I'm guessing you're not Catholic?
Seth Price 11:26
No, I was raised Protestant.
Bob Doto 11:29
That's the difference, I mean, in Catholicism, to say a rosary, is to use the rosary beads to say the prayers. And that is typically done in the Marian tradition or practice, you know, where it's a rosary to Mary. But there are things called chaplets, which are variations of a rosary. So rosary is a certain number of beads, and there's certain prayers that are prescribed for it. And petitions and things like that. So that's, you know, doing a rosary in that respect. So a rosary is both the beads and it's also the act.
Seth Price 12:05
So my ignorance is it's bleeding through. Where I grew up in Southwest Texas, I'm not even sure where the Catholic Church was, like, just Bible Belt. 100%.
Bob Doto 12:19
I mean, I grew up in New Jersey.
Seth Price 12:21
It’s all Catholic church.
Bob Doto 12:22
We didn't know, like, as a kid, Christians weren't even like, we weren't Christian-we were Catholic. Like, Christian was some other thing. You know, I knew it had something to do with something related to what we were. But I didn't even know like, I really just had no idea. We were like, just Catholic that was the thing.
Seth Price 12:43
Well, I'm coming to find that that term, Christian means way more things than either of us was told. So when you say the word spirit, and it's woven through the whole book, I think that you're using that word differently than my upbringing would use. And I actually wrote down, I write down very few questions. And then we may want to come back to this. But like I literally wrote, what's the difference between my sense of self and a sense of spirit? Like because you're talking about giving spirit voice throughout the book. And then even just in that opening chapter, like, as I'm reading things, I was like, what the flip is happening here?
What is spirit? Can we just start there maybe at a foundation like what are we saying when we say that?
Bob Doto 13:28
Sure, so that changes with different communities, I'll just start that out. But my understanding and the way I've experienced it, and the way I talk about it, is that there's spirit within a person that God has bestowed spirit into humanity, into humans. And that's the sort of motivating force that we see in our language, you know, they have a really great spirit, a very vibrant spirit, or their spirits very sad, or my, my spirit feels low today, or whatever. In the colloquial speech, you can kind of hear sort of the flavor of what a spirit might be. So the spirit is that kind of like, the energy you feel during any particular time of the day.
When you start looking at spirit as an entity, then you start seeing it as yes, it's this sort of motivating kind of feelings kind of thing inside you, but it also remains after you die-in some traditions, they believe that right that it's like, in an untimely death, a case of an untimely death, so called, the spirit might linger. You know, and you we come across this in ideas of purgatory and things like that as well. So a spirit in a very, like basic sense is the lingering aspect of a human being in the world, right. Not everyone believes in that not everyone ascribes to that definition, but that's kind of like a really general (definition). Then of course, there's the Holy Spirit, which is obviously part of the Trinity. I can take us through the whole gam-mot of stuff.
Seth Price 14:59
No, no, no, no. I think we'll get there. I guess yeah, no, we'll definitely get there. So what spirit is happening in the community that you're in in chapter one? Because like people are saying things, it feels like at random and you reference kind of like, an internal monologue of I should say this, I should say this, and then you end up not saying anything. Like, what is that? Is that someone from their community, is that just some random spirit in this context just happens to be passing through this community? Like, I'm just traveling on the jet stream today. And I'm usually I'm probably badly using the terminology for spirit. What is that?
Bob Doto 15:40
Okay, so in that community, that's, that's a Lucumí tradition. It's an Afro-Caribbean tradition, a spiritual system, that's been around for quite some time. And they have a very robust appreciation of Spirit and spirits. So I was at what's called an Espiritismo, or a spiritual misa, which is a mass; but not like a mass like you are I've ever been to kids or adults.
And so in that world, there are many spirits. Spirits are very much present in the world, the lingering spirits of people who have passed. So in that room, people who are sensitive to that kind of stuff will feel as if they are being spoken to, or they're getting information, or they're having some sort of experience that feels outside of themselves. And there's different ways of understanding is that true? And there's a lot of like testing that goes on. So it's not just like everything someone says is, “Oh, that must be a spirit”. You know, sometimes they're like, “Is it is it not”? And they go through different various ways of determining that.
So, in that first chapter, I'm in that group and I'm watching people perform what is believed to be spirit communication.
Seth Price 16:57
So the average observer, say from let's just pick a random set Kansas, if they're in the room with you, like, what do you think most people would view watching that as an outsider?
Bob Doto 17:12
Demonic, 100%.
Seth Price 17:13
Okay.
Bob Doto 17:15
It is not but I but you know, because there's a lot of cultural baggage that people bring to these sort of things. And that goes both ways you know what I mean? They would probably say that this isn't God, this isn't holy. But I shouldn't project because people who have familiarity with being overtaken with the Holy Spirit, that very charismatic tradition, they may look at it and be like, I don't know, it looks like Holy Spirit to me. I mean, I've been to some Pentecostal churches, and I've seen more talking in tongues there than I do here.
Seth Price 17:50
Yeah, yeah.
Bob Doto 17:51
So in one sense, I say you know, the cultural aspect of it, because there's probably statues around and incense and things that look kind of nefarious, even though they're not. It might be translated as like not of God, but really it is, it's quite godly.
Seth Price 18:09
So I want to drill there, on demonic. So, I think it's chapter four, maybe chapter five, you're doing you're talking about like, casting out demons and demonic thought, and demonization of the Spirit. And that's kind of a, what is it? I'm trying to think of the name of the saint. It's a saint, I can't think of the name starts with a C. Here's what you said. So you say
there has always been a problem of using Jesus’ as casting out of demons as a theological justification for demonization
of spirits paraphrase there at the end of mine, spears. So you use the word. Most people, you know, say from Kansas, we look at that and be like, what the hell is happening here like this has to be demonic. So how are the two conflated like demonic spirits versus not?
Bob Doto 18:56
So historically, what kind of happened is just prior to the Biblical era that we see in the Bible, and certainly, Jesus more particularly, there was an understanding of spirits. Spirits float around, they cause mischief, and certainly in Greece, Greece in particular, there was an understanding that spirit lingered and could be both beneficial and, you know, malicious, it was kind of like neutral in that way. And in the Old Testament, you see a bit of this as well. As you get to the time of Jesus. The only spirits that are really mentioned are ones that are essentially causing problems.
They'll talk about like Jesus needed to cast out this bad spirit or evil spirit or unclean spirit. They don't talk too much about the spirits that were not causing problems because what's to talk about really? So as the tradition grew, the Christian tradition grew, and found its way into other cultures the idea of a demon kind of took over it. Just be came the governing default term for what would actually be not so singular. So it just became demons. If someone's, you know, upset, it's demons if someone's ranting, it's demons, all negative, all negative. So in that chapter, it's chapter four, I'm sort of unpacking that. It was a lot more nuanced in the Bible. And certainly in Jesus's work and time.
Seth Price 20:26
What you'll find with me is, is I bounced around quite a bit. So I struggle, so the hardest part for conversations like this, are I literally have so little background to fall on because of my upbringing. Yeah, as I read your book, I kept taking notes and then kept getting frustrated, and then kept taking notes. And then…it's fine, I want to go back to something you said at the very beginning of the book. So you say that you're trying, I think you say some of the effect of you for a while you fell away from the Catholicism of your youth, and that you were hoping to find a new Catholicism of the Spirit, like a way to marry the two. What do you mean, when you say Catholicism of the Spirit? And honestly, have you? Have you found a way? Because I don't know that you really answer that question. And again, outside of some appendicies, but maybe I feel like it's left open. I could have missed it, though. Totally could have missed it.
Bob Doto 21:21
No, I mean, the book itself is kind of a testament to me kind of really embracing it. And I've certainly embraced that tradition in a much more broad, more informed, fashion than when I was a kid. So that's the case now. But you know, the book is also written for a lot of the people that I'm around, and in communication with and talking to, and all that kind of stuff. Are people who were like me, you know, had this faith or this religion that they grew up in, rejected it for any number of reasons. And, then we're talking 20 years later, they're starting to be like, wait a minute, you know, there's, there's stuff here, there's stuff here, that's mine, you know what I mean, I grew up in this, I could be exploring this. So people are coming back to it and, you know, I'm kind of speaking to those people and saying, look, this tradition everyone's going to tell you it's one thing, it's not one thing. And it's not even 100 things, it's many different things. And part of finding your place in it is to find the areas of the tradition that resonate with you. And that could be the spirits. That could be the saints that could be Red Letter Bibles. I mean, it can be, you can come at it from so many different aspects. So that's like, my mission, in a way is to show people the breath of this tradition in all its forms.
Seth Price 22:47
Yeah. So you fell away from Catholicism as a youth. And so now you would call yourself Catholic again, or…
Bob Doto 22:53
Sure, yeah, I think so. Yeah. I would call myself a Catholic. You know, like, I mean, I have sat with so many people that are so not this religion, that at this point, the labels are almost kind of like funny in a way, but like, yeah, I mean, I would consider myself Catholic.
Seth Price 23:12
Your answer sounds like [mine], so some of the other day asked me if I was Christian. I was like, sure. I gave very similar answers. I was like, I'm not really overly involved in whatever that means. I'm just trying to do like Matthew 25. I don't want to be like Matthew 23. I'm trying to focus on Matthew 25. I don't want to be a brood of vipers, just trying to love my neighbor.
Bob Doto 23:35
100%, I’m a little in the same boat.
Seth Price 23:37
Whatever that is, we'll call myself that.
Bob Doto 23:41
Someone that said, Oh, you know, you being a Christian and all blah, blah, blah, in a comment online. I was like, what, like, but it felt so strange. I don't really think of myself that way.
Seth Price 23:51
Well, I mean, the titles, evangelical Catholic, like they're all get conscripted to mean whatever they need to mean for political power, or monetary power, or Empire power. But that's an entirely thing separate of spirit.
Bob Doto 24:07
Doesn't have to be.
Seth Price 24:07
Yeah, so you unpack the Holy Spirit, and you unpack it through Pentecost. And so you I stopped taking notes, because I felt like I was just literally copying out of the book. But like, when you unpack it, like you talk about, like, there's like three things that I never really thought about any of these. And I've never really heard it preached either. Probably because, again, of the denomination that I’m in. So you say, first off, the Holy Spirit arrives, which I wrote down. So where the hell is it? B: And then it comes with a glorious noise, which still doesn't make any sense to me. C: and I think you actually call them 123. But whatever. And then the Spirit wants us to speak. Can you rip those three things apart?
Bob Doto 24:51
Sure, yeah. I really wanted to emphasize because my understanding of the Holy Spirit as a kid and just in the culture was That it's this kind of theoretic thing. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't really have a place, it doesn't really do much. It's just kind of like the third part of the Trinity. So I went back and I started unpacking well, what does it say? How is it showing up in these stories, and it shows up in three main ways, which are the ways you just mentioned.
So the first one is that it arrives. Meaning that you feel it, there is a sense that it was not here a moment ago, you felt one way, and then all of a sudden you feel another way. And that's what happens in the Bible. I use the example of Peter placing his hands on some people, and the Holy Spirit descending.
Now, in that story, these people were believers in Jesus, they were essentially followers of Christ and we're all in. But they still hadn't had, according to the story, they still hadn't had the Holy Spirit or Baptism in the Holy Spirit, which is very telling, it tells us that you can say and do and feel all sorts of ways, but the Holy Spirit is something specific that enters your life, and you feel it. Does it feel the same for everybody? I'm sure it doesn't. But at least according to the text into the stories, and which are our tradition, these stories, it's something that you feel it's something that arrives.
The second part is the glorious noise. So that's sort of another an elaboration on that first part, which is that in all these stories nothing remains the same, right? Like the environment that people are in changes. So it's described as a glorious noise. But it's really like things change around you, you know, at least your experience of things, changes or changes around you. It's not like things are just passive anymore, you're passive to the environment anymore. It's like no, something is here. And it's made itself known.
And then the third is, of course, the push to profess, or the push to speak. It's another very, super common theme in the arrival of the Holy Spirit. That not only do you have the experience, not only does your environment seem to change, or at least your appreciation of your environment changes, but you are motivated to talk about whether it's through prophecy, through tongues through wisdom through whatever form you takes. So it's this very visceral, it's very vibrant, it's it's a, it's a big thing. It's kind of a big deal, you know.
And so that's what those three parts are really talking about is that it's something that happens, you feel it, and you're changed because of it.
Seth Price 27:31
Give me a minute, we'll be right back.
Seth Price 27:50
If someone's listening, and they're like, I don't think that's ever happened to me, like I'm sitting back, I'm thinking back through my entire life. I don't know that that ever happened. What then like, is there a feeling of discouragement? Should they be seeking that? How do they possibly seek that? Should they really not worry about it, like it'll happen when it needs to happen? Because as I read through parts of it, I like, I don't know that I've ever experienced most of these things. And so I was like, well, what is what does that say about me?
Bob Doto 28:18
Sure, I’ve felt the same way. I mean, I get it I my take on that would be that people probably have felt that shift in their life, and maybe just not attributed it to divine origin, so to speak, or have some movement or a quickening, what's often called a quickening of the Spirit, which I love that that phrase. But we've all had ephiphanies, we've all had ah ha moments, which are, you know, just kind of like, minor, you know, but we've all also had just deep, rich appreciations of another person or a situation or a scenario that's occurring, where we just feel above and beyond what we're used to.
Now are those moments of the Holy Spirit that's really between you and the Holy Spirit, you know. But I think if you're tuned to that, and I think it's a practice. The more you sort of commit to being like, I'm gonna just pay attention when those things happen and actually, like, stay with them a little bit and just feel what they feel like. I think people will feel that there is something happening here. Is it trumpets do like trumpets come in and angels? Probably not. But I don't think that's really what it's about, you know.
Seth Price 29:29
It is a glorious noise.
Bob Doto 29:30
It's a glorious noise, but it could be a quiet glorious noise, sure why not.
Seth Price 29:35
(laughs) Don't wake up the neighbors.
What would the concept of the Holy Spirit exists like in the first community that you were writing about in chapter one? Because you had said that some of those people that were practicing, you know, being basically spiritual mediums for things that have been left unsaid or that need to be said? How does one do that but then also practice, because you had said some of them were practicing Catholics, I think even in the in the book. How does that coincide because it just breaks my brain a bit?
Bob Doto 30:08
So the first thing people need to understand is that there's Catholicism of like the Roman Catholic Church, but that's like, I don't really know how to describe it. But it's kind of like that’s like the centralized authority on certain matters, right? But it's not the end story of what actually goes on in the world, right. This religion is not the church this religion is in flux at all times is constantly being reinvented, not reinvented. And not reinvented like someone invents it. I mean, it's constantly being breathed into new life.
So what that means is that to these people, of course, they're still Catholic. To them it's like, I grew up Catholic, I believe in Jesus, I go to mass, I perform all the rights I invest myself in it. And I also believe in this other aspect that the church doesn't really recognize so much, but it's it's here, you know. It's kind of like you participate in the world. And if your world involves spirits, then you participate with spirits. You know what I mean? If your role doesn't involve spirits, you don't? It doesn't mean it affects what Catholicism is, you know?
Seth Price 31:20
I want to pivot to some of the theology of Paul, I think you shared a good section of your time there on the gifts of the Spirit, theology of Paul, you got some quotes in there out of Timothy and I can't remember exactly which Timothy it is. I think that was part that talks about like demonic spirits, I think or, or spirits that are not hold on, I actually find it I have it bookmarked. At least I think I have it. Yeah, Timothy 4:1
the spirit clearly says that in later time, some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
But you break through like a lot of the gifts of the Spirit, speaking in tongues, Pentecost, all this stuff throughout Acts and the other books of the Bible. And you rip them apart in ways that I hadn't really prepared to read. Can you talk briefly on some of those? And just to be real honest, speaking in tongues is the one that freaks me out the most.
Bob Doto 32:06
Sure.
Seth Price 32:06
In fact my mom asked me the other day, and I was like, Mom, I don't like literally two days ago. Like Mom, I don't…I don't know.
Bob Doto 32:15
She asked you what, like what is speaking in tongues?
Seth Price 32:17
No, she asked me my thoughts about it. So someone had come to our house. So my father recently passed, and someone felt like they needed to come and pray with her. And then while they were there praying, there were a couple of them, you know, they laid hands on her and then just started praying in a different language. And my mom was like, I didn't know what to do with that. I was like, well, I mean, be great grateful that they came. And I don't know, mom.
Bob Doto 32:41
What do you do with that?
Seth Price 32:42
So the fruits of the spirits…
I think it's because of the the denomination that I'm in. And again, my upbringing, like they don't make any sense to me. If that makes it. They don't hold much logical sense for me. Can you go in a bit of what you say around those? Because again, they're connected to spirit?
Bob Doto 32:59
Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, speaking in tongues, you find everywhere around the globe, in all traditions, this sort of performance. And by when I say performance, I don't mean like it's a put on or an act. I mean, like it is an external expression of something that's happening.
So you know, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, they're actually spoken of slightly differently in a few different areas. But the ones that I speak about are very specific in nature. The speaking in tongues, if that's what you're kind of asking about the speaking in tongues, he (Paul) describes them very detailed or gives very detailed names of them. One is wisdom. One is knowledge. One is prophecy. One is the ability to heal. One is the ability-the ability-to speak in tongues, whereas another gift is the ability to interpret those tongues with the Holy Spirit; or the Holy Spirit has come down on to them.
And he describes them very detailed or gives very detailed names of them. One is wisdom. One is knowledge. One is prophecy. One is the ability to heal. One is the ability, the ability to speak in tongues, whereas another gift is the ability to interpret those interpret. One is of course miracles or being able to perform extraordinary acts. and he says, no one will have all of them right people will some people will get this some people will get that and the idea is that if we live together we'll all have be able to share these gifts with one another and form a nice big, it's like Voltron.
Seth Price 34:20
Like a church?
Bob Doto 34:23
Like a church or like Voltron, same difference (laughs). Like the Power Rangers.
Seth Price 34:29
The Power Rangers are such a cheap knockoff.
Bob Doto 34:34
So so speaking in tongues, the way I define speaking in tongues and the way I've experienced it, is that if you think of the human being as a vessel, right, a vessel that has all of its conditioning, all of its cultural projections, all of its ways of seeing; which are very limited right? Of course, just by the nature of having eyes in front of our heads, we are limited In our scope of vision, so we come to all these things with sort of preconceived ideas and the things we hold onto. Spirit doesn't abide by that. So spirit comes down. And it needs to find a way to express itself. You're kind of like an antenna. And what happens is that message gets very garbled in a way, you know what I mean?
So people start speaking in languages, they don't necessarily know, in languages that nobody knows, because they're not languages that we use, they speak in ways that can be quite confusing. So one of the other gifts is the ability to interpret that speech. Right.
So the speaking in tongues, the way I experienced it, and understand it is that it's kind of watching a human who's this kind of small in a way character in the in the story, trying to negotiate something that's much bigger, much more feral, in a way. And it has to kind of find its way through this very tiny hole we call a mouth. So you're really just witnessing it. So for your mother? And she asked, like, what do you do there in a way, you just kind of witness it, you know, I mean, make sure the person doesn't get hurt themselves, you know, if they're flailing about, but you witness it. And if you believe that these are divine acts, you kind of give thanks that you were in the presence. You know, and if there wasn't anyone there to interpret Well, maybe next time, you know.
Seth Price 36:27
Yeah, so I remember growing up, I was always told if someone's speaking in tongues, and there is no one there to interpret. They're not doing it right. And those are the rules I was told. So the other ones though, so those ones we don't talk about as much. So prophecy, healing, like all that other stuff, like, what do we do with those? Because I don't know what it's like for someone to use the Spirit to speak a prophecy. Like I again, all of those are well outside of my wheelhouse. So how does one like myself know what to listen to?
Bob Doto 37:01
Right. So that's discernment. That's a whole other practice, you know, the Ignatians are great at talking about like, spiritual discernment, being able to discern what's worth listening to, and what's not in any scenario, whether it's like, what you should buy at the store for groceries, or what like, is true prophecy or not. But you know, these things, these gifts, there's a sense for the person who's experiencing it, that this is not of them. That it's a subtle thing. And we could as outsiders, we can look and say, Well, of course, it's you. You're speaking it, like what, you know, that's a very new, very modern way of understanding what's happening there.
It just is, according to the history. It's just a modern, very new way of thinking that it isn't prophecy, you know, 100-200 years ago, and all the way back, it would have just been like, yeah, that's prophecy. It just wouldn't have been, it would have been a big deal, but also kind of like not a huge deal. It's like people prophesize. That's what you see in the Bible all the time. You say, Oh, yeah. And then he went over there. And he's prophesizing for a while. And then he went and like went fishing.
And it's like, Okay. The tone, it tells you that this was a much more normative thing. And we just don't have access to that. I didn't I wasn't raised with that. Yeah, know, at all. But traveling around, watching other cultures engage in things that are quite similar. You start to see that like, this is everywhere, this way of thinking or appreciating what's happening has been around much longer than than the way we appreciate it. Which is a lack of appreciation.
Seth Price 38:33
What does the role of modern science, and specifically like therapy, mental health, how should that play together with Holy Spirit? Because I see, and I've had people tell me, you know, if something's not happening correctly, I'm just not praying correctly. I'm not in touch with the Holy Spirit, this and the other like using it as a carrot or a MacGuffin to yield power or sway my thoughts on this side of the other. And I've had other people say, well, the whole thing's crazy. Like, they just didn't have an understanding of germ theory or anything else. So of course, they gave it a name. And that's what they call it, like, that person was just having a psychotic break. And they called that a spirit. How do those two interplay for today?
Bob Doto 39:14
I mean, in some sense, it's like, yes. And, you know, it's like, yeah, some of these people were probably epileptic, you know, and they called it spirit. Today, we call it epilepsy. In 100 years, or 200 years, or 500 years or 1000 years do you think they're gonna call it epilepsy? No, no, they're gonna look back and say, “Well, that was really rudimentary”. You know, and it isn't. It isn't rudimentary. It's like, we live in a context like, this idea that things are progressing like, oh, well, they didn't know this. And now they do. And now we know more. It's actually not really true.
It's like, you know what you know, and base everything we do, based on the knowledge we have, right? They didn't know less they just knew different. So it was as true to them as ours is true now. So yeah. So in some sense, we could say, Oh, well, they were having psychotic breaks. Sure, maybe they were. But the way they interpreted it was was different.
But what I will say though, there's a really good I think Ram Dass might have said it one of the major Western spiritual teachers who recently passed away he, I don't know if it was him. I don't know who said it. But what they said was, he said it, somebody said this really great thing, which is that, you know, mysticism or mystics swim in the ocean that psychotics drown in. And so it's this idea that if you are able to still maintain a connection to the social world, but you have these rich, deep, heavy duty experiences, even if you have them 99% of the time, but 1%, you remember, I'm the son of x, y, and z, you are still playing in the world of mysticism. If you lose all of that, then in our culture, we call that a psychotic break.
That is not how all cultures see it. In India, they don't necessarily call it that. You know, and India is not a rudimentary version of America, it is different. So you know there's gray area, there's crossover, it’s like there's no line. Certainly once you scratch the surface, there's no line.
Seth Price 41:24
Yeah, yeah, certainly not. I googled that. If you can believe the Google that would be Joseph Campbell, which that sounds like something Joseph Campbell would say.
Bob Doto 41:32
That makes sense.
Seth Price 41:33
He actually says,
The psychotic drowns in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight.
is what this says,
Bob Doto 41:44
Which is even better.
Seth Price 41:45
Yeah, sure. Well, it's Joseph Campbell. One of my good friends studied under him, and often he'll say things and I'm like, That's brilliant. He's like, yeah, that was Joseph Campbell. I'm like, yeah, at the beginning of your book for context at recording for those listening, because honestly Bob, about I have no idea when I'll release this soon-ish. I'm comfortable with a soonish timeline, we just finished with the election. We're like on the Tuesday or whatever day it Yeah, the Tuesday after the AP said that, you know, Biden became president elect.
So for context that’s where we're at in the timeline, as I'm asking this question, but you write in here that for and it's in a chapter about orientation, the way that we orient ourselves towards spirit, you say
the US culture prioritizes self determination over spirit.
What does that mean self determination? And I say that us culture, because it's, it feels prescient for the moment that we're in, in the world.
Bob Doto 42:35
Right. So on the whole, despite being considered to be a very religious society in North America is considered very religious. On the whole, there's still this idea. And it's held to very strongly that at the end of the day, is it's a bootstraps culture, right? Like, if you want to make something happen, you have to like do it yourself. Right? So that's what I'm kind of referring to there.
It's not necessarily a culture that sort of says, well, if it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be. You know, I mean, we may say that that may be part of our lexicon. But the governing principle is that love is not meant to be and you want it to be just go do it. And that's a fine principle. I think that has plenty of pros to it. But it changes how we understand and how we read a text like the Bible. Our interpretation of the Bible is colored by that understanding. That it's like, oh, well, if you're not affluent, you know, if you're not rich, you know, you're just not working hard enough. You're not doing enough. You know what I mean? And if you're not doing enough, it means Jesus isn't listening. You're being punished, I mean, you're doing enough. Yeah, you know, so it's colors. So that's, that's really what I was referring to.
Seth Price 43:45
Okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah, I got confused reading that because the way you just described, it sounds similar to self determination is equivalent to a prosperity theology, a dominionist theology. At least that's the way I'm hearing it.
Let's pretend humans as a whole are more tuned to listening to spirits and all the manner that that can be manifested, specifically the Holy Spirit. What do you feel like changes? Like, what do you see? Like if people could do that? Like, you're like, Oh, yeah, this is the outcome of that.
Bob Doto 44:16
That's a really good question. I don't think I've ever really been asked that question. So what's the outcome? So I'm gonna just say it back so that I have it. What's the outcome of the society that really appreciates the movement of the Spirit? That’s kind of what you are asking?
Well, it's a lot less determined. You know, the outcomes are a lot less determined, because the Spirit doesn't work, if we go according to the stories, the Spirit doesn't abide by the rules that we wish it would all the time. You know? So if there's a true appreciation of the movement of the Spirit, then it would mean that, in theory, we'd be a lot more flexible as far as like what outcomes are going to happen or what outcomes might happen. So that there'd be room to kind of negotiate those. So if I expect you to be a certain way, then if you are not that way, then it's very difficult for me to engage with you. But if I appreciate the fact that there is something else working between us here, then it gives me room, it gives you room, to live, to be. You know, to change your mind to, you know, turn course. It gives us room to just be bigger, to have a more full range of our human experience. That will be in an ideal scenario.
Seth Price 45:40
Yeah, no, I like that.
Bob Doto 45:44
Why not‽ Who doesn’t want that!
Seth Price 45:45
Yeah, maybe I'd be able to hear people and they'd be able to hear me. Yeah. I like that.
Um, so final couple of questions. So the last one. You wrap up the book with some practices, one of which is Lectio Divina, which is one of my favorite ways favorite, favorite. I don't know if that's a good sentence. One of my preferred ways of studying Scripture. I'm a huge fan. I do that and the Examen. The Examen I do every day. And Lectio Divina probably once a week, because it takes a lot more effort on my time.
Bob Doto 46:18
That takes alot of time.
Seth Price 46:19
So I drive about 40 minutes each way to work. So I couldn't do the Examen while I drive without having an accident, usually. Lectio Divina, I can't because like I have to close my eyes, like it takes a lot more concentration, and I'm driving a 4000 pound piece of steel. I need to be at least marginally focused. So of those practices, which ones do you feel like are maybe a few that people that are uncomfortable or maybe have never thought about trying to attune themselves to the Spirit that they could begin to engage in in a way that would kind of slowly wade into the waters; if that makes any sense?
Bob Doto 46:54
100% makes sense. I mean, the daily examen is a beautiful way to do that. You know, those practices i given there and and I give a preface to it are not meant to (be) ways to listen to the spirit, you know, what they are there ways to slow down and become sensitive to your environment, whether that be the environment of the holy books, or your environment of like, literally sounds around you, because we don't do that-many of us. We just don't make time for that. And what I found when I first started engaging with this more like spiritful, I call a spirit full. So rather than spiritual spiritfull practices is it took me a while because I actually had to shut up.
Like, just be. Which is not to say, like I would, I was doing lots of other things, a yoga and stuff, but like, so I had an understanding of what that meant even. But some people have no idea what that even means. What do you mean be quiet, like, be quiet and do what? So the practices i given there are kind of very beginner, a beginner they can, you can do them the rest of your life, but they're easily approachable practices to start listening. But what you were talking about the daily examen or lectio divina, you know, reading spiritual texts in a very contemplative manner. I mean, that's, that's where the goods are, you know, those are great ones. The Ignatians, I mentioned them before, you know, they know how to do that. They're good people to go talk to or at least read from, you know. They're versed in that stuff.
Seth Price 48:25
Which ones do you do? Which ones are your fall back on? So like, if you've had a stressful day, or stressful month or whatever, like, what are what are the ones that you fall back on where you're like, Alright, I really need to get refocused here.
Bob Doto 48:35
So, my practice, basically, at this point is doing right now I'm doing the Ignatian Spiritual exercises, which I've been doing every day for half a year now. So that's reading aspects of the Scripture, the teachings of Ignatius, St. Ignatius, and it's kind of like lectio divinia in some ways, you know, it's that contemplative reading. But every morning, you know, I get up very early, and I say some prayers, I have an altar, and I say, my prayers there, and I do some chanting and some singing. And then I practice yoga, and then, you know, starts very early, and then I clean my apartment for an hour, which is another practice I do. So I chant while I practice while I clean for an hour, typically not every day, but most days. So I do alot, there's lots that I do.
Yeah, but to answer your question, if I'm just like, man, I'm feeling really…like all might say a rosary or, you know, sing some hymns and things like that. I'm a big like, what are called like bhakti. Bhakti is the yogic tradition of like devotion. I like to sing. You know what I mean? I like to sing old folk songs and enhance and stuff. Those are really kind of like just shake it out.
Seth Price 49:45
Yoga is also on the list of things I am entirely ignorant of; never have done any yoga. Now inside of watching my wife do it like as a as a form of exercise, not a spiritual thing at all? So a question I've been asking everyone this year. And so I'd like to end with this. So if you were trying to wrap words around, you know, here's what God is-the divine is-whatever, and you're trying to explain that to someone say the person that lives below or above you, like, what do you say to that?
Bob Doto 50:19
I say that God fills all the cracks, you know what I mean? God is the incomprehensible just motivating force for all things and all non things. That's a very big answer. But I would also say that God refines itself for us to experience God through saints or special beings, or prayers, or songs, or trees, you know, or just in life itself. Like we can experience God in all sorts of fashions around us, because God is in all those things.
So while we can't comprehend the scope of God, we don't need to because we've got the tree and we've got the saints. And we've got the songs.
God did us a real solid there. Making it a little easier. (we both laugh)
Seth Price 51:18
I love it.
Bob, where do you want people to go? Where do they go to do the things?
Bob Doto 51:23
Do the things with me? So I spend most of my time unfortunately on Instagram. So I have an Instagram handle known as New Old Traditions. That's where I spend a lot of time I post videos there talks there, quips there. I stream there, I host classes. Anything iIm doing i post there. Yeah, I just use it as kind of my website at this point.
Seth Price 51:55
New Old Traditions?
Bob Doto 51:57
New Old Traditions.
Seth Price 51:53
I like it. It is a bit oxymoronic, I love it. Yeah, very much.
Yeah. I appreciate your time, so much tonight.
Bob Doto 52:00
And thanks so much.
Seth Price 52:01
Thanks for allowing me to fumble through.
Bob Doto 52:02
It’s been great and I think you did great.
Seth Price 52:14
I think that it's important to find things that we can learn from people that do faith and spirituality different than us. There's always something that you can come home to. And I'm reminded of something that Barbara Brown Taylor said, when she said, “You know, I can learn about God from other faiths and other ways of doing faith. It's just Jesus that I come home to”, and I find great comfort in that.
So I'm thankful for people like Bob, and other people that stretch me. Because I do see God getting bigger than that tiny one that I grew up believing in. What you're going to want to do right now is hit pause, go down and click the show notes and just become a patron supporter of the show.
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I really hope that you're blessed.