Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Bushi 0:00
Bodhi Christo…I'm glad you're asking Bodhi Christo is the path, I have termed it such simply because in the years that I've been a monk and the years that I've been doing this work and it's meditative practice, I've discovered that both Jesus and the Buddha had they existed at the same time, they would have probably gotten along very well. And I think that is because Jesus is often referred to as the Son of God, but there's…there's something else he's often called and that is the son of man.
I think it is the man side, the human side of Jesus, that we are so under educated in, as a human society, that we are so under, educated in and misinformed about as a Christian society that it warrants us investigating simply because without understanding his human side, I don't believe that we will ever understand his divine side.
Seth Price 1:16
Well, hello there, how are you doing? I'm Seth, this is Can I Say This At Church podcast and I think April is done. This is Episode 127, maybe 128, somewhere in there, but I welcome my new friend Bushi to the show. And I really, really, really enjoyed this conversation. So we talk about Buddhism and Jesus and how the two interplay. I would like to try to summarize it like I do sometimes, but that's, I don't think gonna be very possible for this one. I just don't, I don't think I can. Before we get started though.
Please subscribe to the show. And always say rate in review, but hit the button to subscribe. That is one of the best things that you can do. That's how you can make sure you stay up to date and when new episodes come out, they just magically show up because that's how the internet works. You should do that in whatever app that pleases you the most. And so with that said, let's make this thing happen.
Seth Price 2:31
Bushi Yamato Damashii, and if I didn't say that, right, it's fine. I guess it's fine anyway. I’m terrified of names that I'm not used to saying. So, welcome to the show. I'm excited to talk to you. You came highly recommended from many, many friends of mine. When I said hey, I want to talk to people that are doing different things and your name popped up seven or eight different times. So thank you for coming on.
Bushi 2:55
Thank you very much. I'm honored.
Seth Price 2:56
I always like to start off with a quick cursory of, you know, what are you, who are you? Why are you kind of your upbringing and how that relates to how you do life now, like kind of just in brief that story, because I think it's good to set that context because without context, not much else is there.
Bushi 3:17
I agree. I was, you know, so I was born in West Palm Beach, Florida, and I was a preacher's kid. My grandmother was a minister of the family, my mother would soon follow, but not in the same capacity. And my grandmother who back in the, you know, early 70s, I was born in 1969 in the early 70s, she had established or helped to establish a Missionary Baptist Church in our hometown. And she had high hopes of doing ministry and so she put forth money to help to charter the church, and just establish the church and the church as of today is doing very well.
But I was raised to be that kid to introduce my grandmother and present her own stage while she presented the gospel kind of trying to soften up the crowd, so to speak, and so various traits of ministry, various understandings of ministry of the church, just kind of naturally imbued themselves upon me. And later on in life, I decided to pursue ministry myself, but because of my grandmother's teachings, she was quite progressive in some respects, I always looked at ministry, the church, the gospel from a different perspective, and one would wonder what that perspective is—largely feminist, but also from a very loving and accepting perspective. Which I think was also a tenant of my grandmother's pursuit of ministry: equality, sameness, you know, compassion for all.
And at some point in pursuit of ministry and in pursuit of ministry, I realized there was something wrong. There's something absolutely wrong with not necessarily the gospel, but our interpretation of it. And this allowed me, encouraged me to pursue other religious thinking to survey the parallels. And what I discovered was that within one of the most readily available, religious encounters that we can have, Buddhism, lies of tremendous benefit to the believer in Christianity, and that is mindfulness.
And so I began studying both and I discovered that both Jesus and the Buddha had been pursuing the same thing. And that is a liberation for human beings of their minds as well as their bodies. And in turn, you correct these two, if you treat these two, well, then it's a good possibility or high possibility that your neighboring community, your neighboring county, your state, your nation, may wind up being a bit more healthy.
So out of those understandings of both Buddhism and Christianity morphed what I do now, which is considered Bodhi Christo, The Awakened Christ. So, in one way you can say that we are reliving the human ness of Christ with clear minds, we're examining our lives not only from a heavenly perspective, but also a very Earthbound perspective through our components of our living here on Earth, such as our psychologies, our mannerisms, those sorts of things.
So Bodhi Christo is designed to live out the tacit, the hands on, methods that Christ employed through the mindfulness of Buddha.
Seth Price 7:13
There's a couple of things there. I want to circle back to what is the feminine perspective of the gospel; ou talked about that a bit like what do you mean feminine perspective?
Bushi 7:18
Yes. So you know, the gospel largely throughout its history, especially here in this country has been anti women in large part due to its translation, or mistranslation, of Paul's teachings regarding men and women in the church. And so my grandmother, you know, wanted to, you know, naturally being a woman and having her feelings and living on this earth and feeling everything just as everybody else does. She wanted to make sure that wait a minute, you folks are not speaking of Christ enough over here for us women kind. And she wanted to reveal more of a loving Christ, the Christ who is not, you know, not quite like his father who is a war-monger in some respects instead of for those that he, you know, particularly cared for and not for those that he didn’t, but more of a Christ image that was compassionate across the board. And so from a feminist perspective, Christ is included completely in the gender roles of women. And she wanted to make sure that men weren't missing that.
Seth Price 8:35
If you can remember back or maybe even to the culture that's in that church today, because you said it's still thriving. What did that do to that congregation to have that view that lens, you know, preach to youth that now are older, like, how does like when you look at a traditional quote unquote, church versus that what are some of those differences? If someone's like, Well, okay, but where does that ultimately lead?
Bushi 8:59
Right. Well, I can tell you this, my grandmother had a large battle ahead of her. And it was a steadily increasingly, you know, fiery, competition in the church but and then particularly with the mental, but what it did was it did liberate many of the women to have have a voice to speak up and to make them in quite uncomfortable. You know, and so I think that in after, you know, Granny, began doing what she was doing, and she did it for a number of years, until she passed, but she always spoke her truth, and her truth resonated so much with other women's truth. And I think what happened is, as a result of that a concomitant result of that was many women began to help establish policy in the church, they began to establish clearer lines of understanding; and also began culturally within the institution itself, to reinterpret many of its archaic viewpoints of women in the church by ordaining women in the Baptist Church. By allowing those women to speak from the same pulpit that the men spoke at allowing those women to serve in positions of power, so to speak, such as trustees and stewards, and then also to make executive changes. So I think she did a tremendous job in saying, look, we're not going to play this you or me game! God is bigger than that.
Seth Price 10:36
Yes…so not a Southern Baptist Convention church, then?
Bushi 10:40
Absolutely! (laughter both)
Seth Price 10:41
You talked about delving into different religious views as you kind of wandered in there are many other interviews with you, as you talk a bit about, you know, you were a pastor at one time correct. And so I don't want to spend a lot of time there. I'd like to try to cover some new ground or learn some more pieces about you. What are some of those other, or was it just you just jumped right from Christianity into kind of diving into Buddhism; or did you kind of “eh…this, isn't it!” what does that look like?
Bushi 11:12
So for me, you know, I think roughly around the age of 12, I begin a more serious inquiry of religion if you can believe that or not. And I think it was because my grandmother was so adamant my mother as well, about learning. When I was growing up in the 70s, just about every household had Britannicia’s, and we had all of these learning materials and what have you.
Seth Price 11:44
I haven't thought about Britannica’s in forever.
Oh my gosh, I haven't thought about those in a long time.
Bushi 11:52
Oh, my gosh! And I was one of those kids who my grandmother and my mother made sure especially being a young black boy from South Florida, you're going to learn, you're going to go to church and you're going to learn and when you're not in church, you're going to be in a book somewhere. And I spent a lot of time learning. So I developed this understanding of other religions early on in life. And it was only in my oh…pre-20s, you know, maybe 18-19 years old that I began a serious inquiry into Buddhism, because of personal anxiety and things of that sort. And they grew on me, you know, Buddhism led to the studying of Yoga. And the beginning of the studying of Shiva, and many other religions, Islam, you know, you wide gamut of religions to be examined, and I found so many commonalities.
And so after a ministry experience, before I went full on Buddhist, before that I had already determined that there needed to be some sort of unifying…some sort of inter-religious unity, to live out these tenants that are found in all religions. It didn't make much sense to be Christian and broken and recognizing that, well, there's a big part of my healing over there in Buddhism, but I can't do it because I'm Christian.
I felt it necessary to combine the two. It's like looking at the medicine but don't open the bottle, you know? And so I did, I began pursuing Buddhism. From a very tacit perspective, hands on perspective, equal to what the Buddha did. The Buddha had studied for a long time with teachers and then finally he just decided that no longer do I need a teacher. I'm going to find this thing on my own. And so that is exactly what I do.
Seth Price 14:00
I asked, intentionally today, I asked roughly 10 people at random actually asked them at work. So I work at a bank. I just “Hey, random question while you're in before you leave. When I say the word Buddhism, what do you think?” And the people not being able to see this video won't get this, but they all went just one of those like, ahhh.h..h.h. And there weren't many people that could really tell me, right? But if I said Islam, they could tell me what they meant. Like if I said Christian even if they don't believe it, they would be able to say, that's what those people do. You know, Christians, they go out on Sunday, and they don't tip…just jokes, but for real, that's what they do. So if you if you were to, if you were to try to explain Buddhism to someone, and by someone I mean me, what would you say? Like what is Buddhism and then, more specifically, what is Zen Buddhism and how does it differ?
Bushi 15:00
Yeah, yeah, so Buddhism, Buddhism is, I'll give it to you as a as one great. Zen master said Buddhism is about recognizing that everything changes, everything changes, it is the cultivation of ultimate reality to ones self. And that ultimate reality is that we will all change and there is no particular reason to hold on to any one notion. Because that notion in and of itself, or idea, will change. The religion the concept, the construct, will change whether or not we are participating in its transmogrification or not, it's going to change. And that's what Buddhism is largely based upon. notions thoughts, memories, history, trauma, all of those things you know, they they happen to us and we act those things out as if they're actually happening to us every moment of our life.
And so Buddhism is a teaching, a way of life, of a number of practices, even a philosophy, that teaches through various methods and portals, through various teachings, to recognize that the psychological constructs even the emotional manifestations that we are experiencing as human beings usually are stemming from one or two places: either from some sort of illusory past or some sort of traumatic past experience or we are reaching towards some sort of unmaterialized goal that is stressing us out and we have not attained it yet. And in both of those timespheres, both of those dimensions we do a great deal of laboring about things that have come and gone.
And we try to live those things out in the third period of time that's always transitory and moving about and that is the present moment. So I often say that we're all victims of the post traumatic stress disorder of our parents and then we go off and live our lives. But here's the issue; we live our lives growing up as human beings going from decade to decade, and we vacillate from past to future and never live our lives in the present moment. In other words, so many people are so concerned about getting to heaven, that they are not altruistic. They're not concerned about other people, and they don't seem to be greatly concerned about doing things to enhance other people's well being on this planet.
Seth Price 17:52
Yeah, I agree. (we are) So concerned about where they're going instead of finding that kingdom of God. That right we are participating in and helping to create. Yeah, wholeheartedly agree. I'll say you talk about post traumatic stress disorder of our parents makes me wonder what I'm doing to the children that sleep above me (laughter from both!)
So I don't have to think that you're familiar, although I do have another question about specifically, the difference between that philosophy and then specifically what Zen Buddhism is…are you familiar with so you talked about paths of, you know, oppression based on trauma. And you talked about another one of you know, just like ascending to I'm going to grasp this because I feel motivated to it.
That reminds me of a conversation I've had with my pastor in the past about Richard Rohr has these two paths of you know, you can “fall upward” or you can “fall downward” like an oppressive path. And then a subversive path. is, Are you familiar at all with that? Does that hold any truth to kind of what you're talking about, or no?
Bushi 18:57
I think I'm understanding the concept. I'm not familiar with that in particular.
Seth Price 19:01
Yeah I’m going to badly paraphrases. So it's like a central line that he would call your essence. And the goal is that you're born that way. And that you hopefully ascend or descend back to that line as you pass. And as trauma happens, you either build an ego that presses others down to elevate your own ego and every time that happens, you get further and further above in like narcissistic tendencies; or you instead just go, yeah, of course, I was supposed to be beat down. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to speak out. And you just continue to submit and submit and submit until you're so far away to what you were actually created as, if that makes any sense.
Bushi 19:52
It does. So in Zen Buddhism, well, I will I will begin by saying he's absolutely right. We're all Born with a natural primordial state and that primal primordial state is pure. We are already enlightened we need not pursue anything else. It is a given that you come here enlightened and then you know then there's some programming that's offered to you some software that you upload. And it is usually someone else's information. And then you go on about living your life now within that information that you're given are certain prerequisites of behavior, prerequisites or suggested tendencies for behavior, or demonstrated actions towards certain experiences that will prompt a behavior. And in that respect, he's absolutely right. We vacillate back and forth because we, you know, we kind of get away from our primordial state.
Zen is about focusing completely on the primordial state. One of the practices that we do here, which is called Daishin Zen is allowing yourself to kind of visually imagine yourself standing above, you know yourself as if you're seated and you're standing above yourself right behind you with your hands on your shoulders. And this particular methodology that we use represents the primordial state, we are minds that are capable of doing but unless you actually intentionalize, the doing or what is in the mind, nothing will actually be done; no further karma will be added to you. So Daishin Zen is this way of watching yourself, observing yourself being clear in the primordial moment, the natural moment, the present moment, and as things materialize around you, all you're doing is being an observer of those things you're participating in the mere fact that you are observing-awareness.
This is in some respect we consider Christ Consciousness, awareness, being mindful. So in that respect Zen urges us at all times to be in a meditative state to always be observant of what you're doing. And you know, paired against or with or in association with the Buddha Dharma, the teachings of the three gates speak only if it's necessary, true, or kind. Is it necessary is it true and is it kind and that is the basis for how one lives as a Daishin Zen practitioner.
Is it necessary? Do you even need to open your mouth? Do you need to have an opinion on certain you know, is it true? You know, is it true? We are so often as Father Rohr points out you know we take sometimes a submissive role in society and we do that under pressure. Sometimes when pressures a bit human pressures a bit too much for us like someone asking us a question or asking us to be vulnerable, we will lie or we will take a lesser grandeur stance on that. So, you know, is it true and if it is not then refrain from speaking until you practice being honest with yourself.
So, and then is it kind? Is it truly kind? Here in the south we have this this kind of mannerism where people to always smiling at each other but deep down within there’s this ambivalence or apathy with each other. Oh, bless your heart. Those sorts of things and Daishin Zen suggests that, you know, if it is not kind and it is not genuinely care if it is not genuinely true if it is not genuinely necessary, then do not engage or entangle yourself in the affairs of falsity. So, that is the methodology of maintaining this primordial state that a father or talks about and that I think Buddha and the Jesus encouraged us to remain there.
Seth Price 24:21
Yeah, I like those three gates. Yeah, yeah, I find myself thinking how can I apply those three gates to social media?
Bushi 24:29
Yes!
Seth Price 24:30
I'll type, type, type, and then just delete. Save as drafts? No…I better not. I better not because I'll go back out and and do it again.
Seth Price 24:59
So what are some of the other, so Zen Buddhism is just one form, so are there others? And can you speak to that at all or just like what are the differences?
Bushi 25:08
Sure, Buddhism is, you know, a cultural manifestation it was born out of India. Siddhārtha Gautama who was a prince, who later would abandon all formal pursuits of gaining enlightenment through teachers and masters and gurus; he abandoned all of that to seek enlightenment himself. And what he discovered was, wow, he himself could be brought back to the natural state of all is well, and all is good.
He brought himself to enlightenment, and many others came after him. He had many students and they would lay to take the teachings and separate them kind of divide them up in various teachings and use those as cultural guides or norms to teach the Buddha Dharma. One of the schools, the oldest, School of Buddhism is called Theravada. And it is generally characterized by the original teachings of the Buddha from when the Buddha was here on Earth as a living being. And they are generally characterized, the monks characterized, by refraining from any sexual activity, they're very abstinent. They have a certain diet that they eat, and they're generally marked by orange robes and largely of Asian descent. And that's largely because when Bodhidharma, the 12th (I checked it’s 5th) century, a monk and founder of Zen Buddhism traveled from Tibet to Korea, and later China in Japan, he shared the Buddha Dhamma there and they adopted it became a part of their culture. Theravada Buddhism is called the oldest school in the schools of Buddhism and then there is the Mahayana. And Mahayana Buddhism is more so Tibetan Buddhism, some schools of Zen Buddhism, but Mahayana is called the lesser vehicle because it allows certai teachings to be expounded upon more so, I think, in the monastic or the followers individual life. So, we're not bound by in many cases, some of the more stricter rules of Theravadan Buddhism, I tend to think Mahayana Buddhism is more individual or family oriented, I guess, you know, the practices around your community the practices more, so around the things that you do every single day not just being caught in the monastery, but the things you do every day.
And then Zen Buddhism is a part of the School of Mahayana Buddhism. However Zen focuses on, particularly emptiness, the emptiness of all things. We place so much emphasis and importance on, you know, spiritual materialism you know, those sorts of things gain wealth acquiring. And Zen Buddhism teaches from a very dire perspective that all things are empty. All things that empty a piece of gold or a ring or a diamond left unattended for a number of years, you know, it will become tarnished and it will need some cleaning up it will need some adjusting in order to return to its full luster.
So, Zen Buddhism focuses on that particular aspect. There are things about you the post traumatic stress disorder of your parents, of racism, of living in the country that does a good job of, you know, of telling you even what you've been told of yourself before even knew yourself Zen Buddhism encourages really get to know who you are and shed the dross, shed the outer layers, of all of the sensationalism of the delusions that, you know, propagate from your mind.
Seth Price 29:30
So when you say emptying, I think that's what you said was emptying. Why…
I want to…I don't want to say this. So I have no, I don't know how to say this. I'm struggling. So what I'm finding is I struggle when I’m talking with people of other faiths, which has actually stretched me quite a bit. I don't have the same common foundation or nomenclature to fall back on.
And so I struggled. I struggled to put questions together. Why does it matter like, like when I hear emptying I hear that I'm like abandoning things, if that makes sense? Like literally just checking out. And almost like, I think things have value. And so but I also can see the, the draw of not being addicted to that value. So how does that work? Like how does one begin that process and I don't even know if I'm saying that right?
Bushi 30:26
Oh, believe it or not, you're doing a wonderful job. Fantastic. Some of the questions that people normally pose to me, I have to think about because I'm not exactly sure what they're saying. But you're very clear.
If you consider and I'll try to do this in a very allegorical perspective, but be as clear as I possibly can. If you consider a flower, you know, one single rose, the rose in and of itself is made of many things. It is comprised of sunlight, and it has some interaction during its development where with bugs, rain, wind, all of those sorts of things, soil. So when we look at the full completion of what a flower is, we are fascinated by its beauty. We are overwhelmed by what it now in it's completed statis will provide for us-a bouquet of flowers, you know, some sort of enlightening or enlivening one's visual day to kind of stimulate the mind, you know, for whatever case it may be. But when the rule is continues on, in its status or in its transformation, it will die. And notice when the flower dies, what happens to our minds?
Our minds immediately go back to well it's worthless. Now. I have to change it I have to do something else in order to sustain this. And so emptiness is the practice of understanding this beautiful manifestation that you're looking at this beautiful piece of Earthbound work that you had very little to do with it coming up, you know, in its original form was not this way. And that in its original form, it's made of other components that we would not value as much as we value it's completed form. So Zen is about recognizing, oh, this is a beautiful flower, but there's much, much more that went into it, to make it such and to be aware of those things that contributed to this manifestation.
So, emptiness is about understanding that “Oh, yes, money is very useful and it can help a lot of people but in the end we should look at money as you know it can be useful, it can be helpful but it in many cases is not the determining factor for happiness”. And when we censor our you know understanding that these things are not worth what we're putting into them we when we sensor that then we go full bore into attainment mode. Many of us have attained ego-hood and gotten enlightenment through our misunderstanding of our relationship to all things we've attained the ego-hood, my shoes are more important. My spot in the line in traffic is more important than you shouldn’t cut me off.
Seth Price 33:57
I struggle with that I got a 40 minute drive to work And some days I'm like, what's wrong with you! It’s a yield sign and what’s wrong with you!
Bushi 34:05
Yeah, well, what's worse is we, you know, I think it's we had someone who visited she said, you know, on Sundays I'm supposed to be holy, but I get so upset because people are keeping me from church and this is why Yeah, maybe, maybe you should come here on Sundays a bit more.
Seth Price 34:25
I want to dive into Sunday. So used a word earlier. Bodhi Christo. And I forget what you said. That means “something” Christ and I don't remember the rest…
Bushi 34:34
Yes! It's awakened Christ.
Seth Price 34:37
What in the world is that?
Bushi 34:39
So Bodhi Christo, I'm glad you're asking, Bodhi Christo is the path I've termed it such simply because in the years that I've been a monk and the years that I've been doing this work and it's meditative practice, I've discovered that both Jesus and the Buddha. Had they existed at the same time, they would have probably gotten along very well. And I think that is because Jesus is often referred to as the Son of God, but there's there's something else he's often called and that is the Son of Man. I think it is the man side, the human side of Jesus, that we are so under educated in as a human society. That we are so undereducated in and misinformed about as a Christian society, that it warrants us investigating simply because without understanding his human side, I don't believe that we will ever understand his divine side.
What I mean by that is there are certain things that certain actions that are represented in Scripture, that are very clear of Jesus' belief of other human beings. For example, Jesus was noted to go and sit next to a woman who was considered not to be a holy person. And it was against the rule for men to sit with women and talk with them if they were in a entrothed or if they were married, or whatever. And Jesus broke those rules to connect to human beings. He understood that human beings need love and association and he dared to do that with his divinity. He even celebrated human beings, because he was a human being, during their most culturally festive times and when the wine was no longer sufficient, he created a more harmonious community.
Jesus was very aware of the human manifestation of our being here on Earth and he tended to that. He said a lot of things that were very mystical but what he did do was he did not hold himself up to be this high person and he was capable of walking the earth in his bare shoes and sandals and touching people right where they were. Bodhi Christo is that manifestation of doing what Christ did, but doing it firstly, from a very awakened perspective. You see, I believe that what many of us have done throughout the course of history as we've acted out these Jesus beliefs but we have not included the the true nature of ourselves in it.
And we've not nurtured the human side. We know how to get people to heaven, and know how to tell them how they're going to hell but as far as helping people to overcome self doubt and helping people to overcome a lack of feeling connected to other human beings. You know, some people have traumas that they're having a difficult time living with and prayer alone is not enough. So I think Jesus would have demonstrated, as he did through the narratives, a human connection get next to those people talk to those people and be willing to have town hall with those people and nurture them right where they are. I often have said in a number of interviews and lectures and talks that I give all across this great country, that I think in large part we have failed as a Christian society because we have not been human. We have tried so desperately to be divine that we have left behind the very source of whom we are, you see.
So Bodhi Christo is the manifestation of a Buddhist monk who deeply believes in the narratives and the actions of Jesus, and from an enlightened or awakened perspective, who lives that out, I live my life out as a person who firstly focuses on me. And for whatever time that takes for me to sort out my stuff to be clear to let go of some things and come to a greater understanding, I take that time so that when I do set forth out into the world and put my hands to other people's hands, they are a little cleaner than they were before I put my hand to theirs.
And so Bodhi Christo firstly is about becoming the Buddha that you naturally are and then through the patterning of what has already been established in this country, Christ, the Christ narrative, living that out in one's life and in society.
Seth Price 39:59
I have to more questions, actually, well, maybe two, maybe, maybe 20, we'll see where it goes.
Bushi 40:04
That's quite alright! (laughter)
Seth Price 40:06
I have found when I speak to people that are Buddhists, which, oddly enough takes a bit of time to get out of people, because I meet people. It doesn't seem to be the Buddhist I spoke with, they don't just come out like they don't proselytize in the way that Christians do, which I appreciate because I'm like, I don't I just want to talk about God and we can call it whatever you want to talk about. I'm gonna learn something today.
I think if anybody in a church went in and they came to your centers to Thomasville Buddhist Center, yeah, that they would be welcomed by everyone present. But I don't know if someone showed up dressed in robes, like as a Buddhist monk, if they were to immediately not be welcome at most churches. So I'm curious how do you think that should look? Like how can it has to be reciprocal how can that work better like what would you say?
Bushi 41:01
I'm actually working with a number of Buddhists, Buddhists, Lamas, Buddhist teachers, from traditional lineages all across the globe. We're working together right now. And this has been going on for some time. Many people have not known of this. But you know, one of the things that we're doing is we're working to make this, this material. This manifestation of Buddhists who understand the need, first of all, for recognizing the Christ figure of history and then also for Christians to recognize the Buddhist image and narrative of history.
And, you know, I think we're working together because we simply understand that Buddhists have been so isolated towards the monastery, towards sending out goodwill and compassion and things of that nature but never really having any tacit knowledge. And what I mean by that is actually putting their feet, the rubber to the road and in many cases, Christians have a great deal of “talk” about compassion and love and kindness and things of that sort…
Seth Price 42:13
Talking being the key word there…
Bushi 42:14
Right, but never fully understanding what that looks like within themselves. We talk about forgiveness, but we don't know how to forgive. Buddhists and Christians coming together can certainly and I know it's somewhat of a morphing process it's a transmogrification that's kind of difficult to understand, but not quite so…the Good Samaritan, you know, took away from his day to just simply recognize another human being who was in distress. And with or without any knowledge, he participated, I always say that comprehension is not a requisite for cooperation. And so these are things that I think together as Christians and Buddhists, we can benefit from learning of each other. We could we could benefit as Buddhists learning to take our teachings of emptiness into a very materialistic world within the Christian society, I think we can benefit people and people can benefit us as well.
Seth Price 43:24
I do want to ask kind of how you think that looks like with faiths that aren't Christian based, like Islamic and other faiths as well. But for some reason, there's a nagging question in the back of my head. So when I think about Christ, and you know, living water, you don't thirst anymore, that seems to be the opposite of emptying.
Bushi 43:47
Ah! Yes!
Seth Price 43:49
So, can you talk a bit about that? Because it's been nagging me for about 20 minutes now. And I finally figured out how to say it.
Bushi 43:52
Yeah. So I think, you know, one of the things that most people do is they you know, they misunderstand because there isn't there isn't depth. So emptiness, you know, if you are empty, then how big are you? How vast it? How limited are you? How extraordinary are you? So, when Christ talks about this, this overflowing, never running out, stream of water full of richness that we can all benefit from and it's there for us eternally, everlasting. The Buddhist concept of emptiness is the same teaching. Your see Christ indicated that he is a well that'll never run dry simply because he is rooted not in the things that plague our minds, he is not rooted in the societal norms and understanding of what life really is, and the Buddha made that perfectly clear as well.
And you have to ask yourself, you know, what problems do we have in life as human beings, and we can give a myriad of answers. But there is only about one problem that each enough each and every one of us have. And that is life is not happening the way that you wanted to. And so Christ says if you live this very simple way, without reaching and grasping for anything, you have to recognize. Christ said if you want eternal life, you got to give it all up, you have to be empty, you have to release you have to let go.
You have to go back to that very primordial state to decontaminate yourself from the things that plague your mind to make you think that these are more important. So emptiness is of the same thing; emptiness is the same as Christ teaching of abandoning your riches. It's the same concept. Daishin means big mind in Japanese culture. It means big mind.
And it's not in terms of capacity. It's in terms of emptiness. If the universe had 21 different locations, verifiable locations, only 21 verifiable locations in the universe, and we could go to them, then everyone would have this common knowledge that well there's only 21 locations that we can go to. But now, as we discovered, the universe is vast. And so now to limit the universe to only 21 just because we see 21, limits our perception and limits our ability to go beyond you see. So, does that help you a bit?
Seth Price 46:43
Yeah, it does, especially that last bit of you know, just because I see 21 it's only 21. Yeah, yeah. I like that.
Bushi 46:51
Yeah, exactly.
Seth Price 46:53
So I want to end with with this question, so people are listening. And then just so you kinda know…I plan. And I'm actually really struggling with it. But this is the plan. I want to speak with as many other faith traditions or other thoughts as possible, because I think it's important to learn how to do that better. And maybe we'll all learn a little bit together because, yeah, I don't even know what I don't know how to buy something from Donald Rumsfeld.
Like I just I literally struggle with things. So yes, I've reached that with so many other different faiths and so far those are coming. I don't know how long it'll be or how many different faiths I’ll talk with, but whatever.
Bushi 47:32
Hopefully, you'll get to many.
Seth Price 47:35
I hope so. I'm looking forward to it. Um, so where would you point people to as they want to dive into some of these concepts to learn a little bit more? You talked about, you know, religious practice of contemplation and liberation and so many different things that we've talked about. So where would you say hey, if you were going to start in one or two spots with intentionality, you know, drill here, this is where you want to drill.
Bushi 47:59
I would Suggest, you know, all of my students across the globe, I suggested reading materials and we studied together and I'm very intimate with all of them. We spend time equally as to what we're doing here, communicating and practicing together. But one of the foundational tools that I use in order to help students to understand Buddhism, whether they be Christian or otherwise, many of my students are not Buddhists, many of them are Christian, many of them are Hindu, and from various religious backgrounds. There's a particular book called Buddhism, plain and simple by my good friend, Steve Hagen, and it's called Buddhism Plain and Simple, by Steve Hagen. And in this particular book, it's written from a lay perspective, Steve outlines, you know what Buddhism is, and it talks to the individual directly and is very poignant in talking about what Buddhism is the beginning of it; and how you approach this. And then also the similarities of other thoughts as well.
You know, so that particular book, by Steve Hagen is a great resource. And I've had people who have read that book and reread it and reread it because it is so insightful, especially for the Westerner. Here in the West, we have a concept even of meditation, that meditation is, you know, getting to this blissful state and all things just kind of disappear from your mind. That is not the case as we've discovered in in Buddhism, true Buddhism. Meditation is allowing the madness of your mind to reveal itself while you sit quietly and let it allow itself to act it out. That is what meditation is because if you cannot see the things that plague you, then you will never know exactly how to deal with them.
Seth Price 49:57
I've practiced that through different forms of prayer down here in the basement about 10 feet to my right here. I read a book. I read a lot of books, but I read a book about a year and a half ago from the name escapes me now, but it's about truth, prayer and identity. And so he says the concept of there just being quiet, and just being still and listening until all you can hear is the silence. And like literally can hear the fibers of the carpet that you're sitting on. And then you can actually focus your attention on something that matters. And I'm not saying that well. He said, it's so much better. James Danaher. That's his name James Danaher! Truth, prayer and identity. That's the name of that book. I can't cheat. I don't actually have it bound. I had a loose copies so I can't just look at my my books.
Bushi 50:49
You gotta get your notes together (laughs)
Seth Price 50:51
Yeah, well, it's in the back of my brain in there somewhere. So I do have another question. Why the Japanese, this has nothing to do with the episode but why the Japanese version because like your yamato damashii doesn't that mean like, warrior or something or other? Why that?
Bushi 51:07
Yeah. So from the time I was 11 years old, I've been a martial artist. And I'm still a practicing martial artist today. Japanese martial arts..I have black belts and all of these arts. And so what I decided to become a more serious practitioner, my teacher suggested a name for me to go into meditation with and that was warrior of the ancient Japanese spirit, Bushi Yamato Damashii. And that name was given to me because, you know, just like most of us who received Dharma names, there was something within me that he intended to see me live out and that is to be a warrior towards my own life circumstances and to do that, through the Spirit and the energy of the practice that I already cultivated, which is a mastery of several martial arts. Do that now with your mind. So I was given that name for that particular reason. So you become the samurai of your own mind and then you can see clearly where not to cut other people.
Seth Price 52:29
One other question. So when I googled you in here's that there was a book that somebody said you were writing that maybe last year, but I can't find it.
Bushi 52:43
Ohh!!!! Yeah, it actually it has not been released yet. We're still working this uh, you know, as we're discovering, as this work is unfolding, more and more people are grabbing at this concept, grabbing at the notion that there is a you know, there's a Buddhist Christian, you know, somewhere in the world and it's, the book is taken a little bit, a little bit more time to come about, but we are still working on it. And hopefully by July of this year, we'll be able to say, all right, it's done. I've been talking with some of my, my colleagues who are helping me with this, and hopefully by July.
Seth Price 53:24
That sounds good.
Bushi 53:25
Yeah, maybe Christmas. It'll be a great Christmas present.
Seth Price 53:29
I was like, I know how Google works. And I can't find this thing.
but it is referenced. Where is it?
Bushi 53:36
Yes, you and I were talking about God earlier…
Seth Price 53:40
Oh, no, I totally forgot! I'm gonna edit this back in. Oh, man. Oh, thank you so much for reminding me! Yeah, I got sidetracked.
One of the questions I'm asking everyone is that because, and that's why I wanted to set context at the beginning of kind of your story, I think where people come from matters for this answer. As I talk to people of other faiths, other cultures, yeah, it's just different. So when you say the word God, or divine, or whatever metaphor you want to say, what do you mean?
Bushi 54:13
Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. And I have to say, Seth, this is the first time anyone has ever asked me that question.
Now, usually, this particular question is answered within my inner circle so as to not cause controversy because I, you know, some people may not understand, but I'm pretty sure that given enough patience and tolerance, it's a really good ansoer as to what I mean. So I grew up understanding that God was in the clouds, beyond the clouds of in a very elementary perspective, and then laid out matriculated to know or to believe that God was this being who was supreme over all things, watching all things in all things are all manifestations of human life and in the Earth. And that God had a tendency of acting on the behalf of human beings acting out against him. God had certain rules. This being had certain tenants that he wanted us to follow. And as I've developed as a human being and grew up, I came to realize that with all of the God talk, you know, Phyllis Tickle once wrote a book called God Talk in America. With all of this God talk, it's becoming quite difficult to feel God in my human flesh, simply because other human beings don't carry the same image that I have.
So when we talk about God…God is in many cases relegated to a Sunday morning phenomena. A person or deity or construct to rely on, a counterpart in struggle to cast your wounds upon you know those sorts of things. And that anything you need as a human being, you know God gives you these things, like you can't work on patience yourself, you have to rely on God, you can work to encourage yourself you have to rely on God, you can't work on peace, you have to rely on God. And living in the flesh you see my hide, could not agree with many of the sentiments that were taught to us in the church about God. God's attributes, those sorts of things.
What I later discovered was that if we're going to talk about God, then I think we have to be involved in that process. So when I speak of God, I speak of the ultimate good of our greatest human endeavors. The greatest good and whatever that is, God would look like you're feeling bad, you you know spontaneously lift yourself because of some notion that you are truly already enlightened. God looks like someone who breaks away from the norm of apathy to spontaneously do something kind for someone else. God looks like someone taking time out of their day to forthrightly, and as an individual, set aside their worries and go cast some concern somewhere else with someone else's issue.
So God is about connecting with human beings in all of the enterprise of humanity, the suffering, the triumphs, all of those things. And when we speak of God, those should be the the narratives that we sell to ourselves. That we offer our own psychologies regarding what we're speaking about. So, you know, God is bigger than anything that we've ever done on the planet. And if the condition of the planet is any indication of how well we've done with God, then my position of God is much bigger than that.
Seth Price 58:25
Yeah. I love that. I love that.
Bushi 58:27
I thank you.
Seth Price 58:29
Well, thank you for reminding me. .
Bushi 58:31
You caught me on the cuff.
Seth Price 58:36
Well, thank you for refocusing me. I totally forgot I would have kicked myself. Matter of fact, I probably would have called you again and hit record again. We still have that dude. Because I've done every single week now. I can't miss one. I can't miss it. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this.
Bushi 58:53
I have as well Seth.
Seth Price 58:54
Yeah, good. Thank you so much, Bushi. I've really enjoyed this.
Bushi 59:00
You're very welcome.
Seth Price 59:03
I have so many other questions, but yeah, thanks. Thanks so much. I really enjoyed it.
Bushi 59:04
You're welcome. And if anyone would like to continue to reach out to me or to follow me, they can do so at a number of corners. Bushispeace.us. And then you can just type in Bushi on Facebook or Twitter, Instagram, and they can they can locate me there.
Seth Price 59:39
The show is 100% a free podcast. However, there are some beautiful people that make this show work. Those are the patrons of the show. You should be one. Click the link in the show notes as little as three bucks a month can help the show continue to grow and sustain and honestly do some things. My goal is to have 100 patrons over the next few months. And so if you would be willing to do that, click the button, I will try my best to make it worth your while. However, since the last recording, there's something new that I want to start doing because I get really excited every single time someone joins a Patreon community. And so that happened to new people over the weekend. And so thank you so much to Chris Harmon, and to Matt Tipton for your support. Special thanks again to the salt of the sound as I continue to work through the back catalogue of transcriptions, the ability to use their music on an ongoing way. I can't tell you how much stress that relieves. And those are almost done. I think I'm almost up to Episode 60. So I think definitely join me for something. I hope that you know how blessed you are, how beloved you are.
And I'll talk with you next week.