Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening and is transcribed from Patreon version of the conversation. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Janet Kellogg Ray 0:00
What most people who deny evolution, deny the age of the Earth, what most people who deny those things know about evolution, or the age of the Earth, comes from anti-evolution sources. And so, as a result, there is a tremendous amount of misconceptions regarding origins, both biological evolution and the age of the Earth. And I think if you have always been told that evolution is equivalent to atheism (then) you were not motivated to do any further study on your own. And so as a result all of your information about these sciences comes from resources that from the outset are in denial about any science evidence regarding origins, the age of the Earth, the age of the universe, biological evolution. And so I think that it's just a matter of where you get your information. If you only get your information about evolution from young earth creationist resources, you know, that's where you're going to land. You're going to doubt the science, you're going to think scientists are lying to you because of an atheist agenda.
Seth Price 1:53
Hello, there everyone. How are you? I'm Seth, this is the Can I Say This at Church Podcast. Thank you so much for downloading today's episodes, and any of the other ones that you did. Before this episode gets going. I wanted to have a moment of honesty with you all. Last year I…what's the word played with, or tried, or toyed with having like, in-episode advertisements, on the podcast. And I will say, while financially successful, I found them annoying. And I'm certain that you did too. And so that's going away. I just wanted to let everybody know that before we got going. And I also wanted to I guess apologize for that.
Now there are a couple of reasons that they could go away. For one a few people lately, extra people, have joined in on Patreon, it's not enough to fit the difference. And this show still continues to make no money. It's a free podcast for everybody. But I'm still going to continue to do it. Because I like doing it. If you're able to pitch in and help find those links everywhere.
I also want to be a little more upfront about some of the resources that are from the show that exists. So every single episode is transcribed. And if you're listening and you didn't know that I wanted to make sure that you did so you're just gonna click right on the website. And you'll find those transcripts. I have found them extremely helpful and useful. But more so when I'm doing them I listen with way more intention than one would normally do. So with that said, I wanted to welcome Janet Kellogg Ray. She wrote a book that the title gripped me it's called Baby Dinosaurs on The Ark? And there's a question mark there reminds me a little bit of like Will Ferrell of “I'm Ron Burgundy?”. You know, it's a book about science and faith and kind of her journey around, you know, just coming to grips with living in the modern world but having a faith rooted in an ancient one. And I love this conversation. I like what Janet's doing. And more importantly, I think that she's right.
I think that the way that we approach science really matters and especially towards the tail end there of our conversation last 10-12 minutes, and she is humming on some things that I think impact every single one of us. So with that said, let's rock and roll.
Seth Price 4:52
Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray! Welcome to the Can I Say This at Church Podcast. I'm excited to have you here. I'm going to edit out the earlier one but I'll leave this one I am rusty at this. See hold on one second. What do you need my child? (Janet laughs) I can't help you right now. Oh my gosh. I'm sorry. Please, you need me to push what on? (my son interrupting…that into that? I mean)
Hi child! (Janet says) child I don't have to push this on. It appears as though it is on. Snap you did it. Okay. Thank you
Sorry, (laughs)
Janet Kellogg Ray 5:40
Been there done that!
Seth Price 5:41
All right now I have grease on me. He's building a…his grandfather two years ago for Christmas got him a big RC car. Like one of those ones where it's four wheel drive that drives like 70 mile an hour. And it's mostly plastic. And so when it flips, it breaks. So he this year got him pieces of like aluminum chassis and different shocks. So he's literally rebuilding the car into metal. Anyway, doesn't matter. Here we go. Lets try this again, welcome to the show. (laughs)
One of the questions that I ask people often is, it's just a good primer for for me to kind of wrap my head around what you and who you are. So when people explain or ask you, you know, Janet, what are you, who are you, kind of why are you? What do you say to that?
Janet Kellogg Ray 6:22
Well, I would say that I grew up in a very close family. Church was the central part of our life of my growing up life. We were very active, we went to church three times a week, rain or shine, and every single night if we had a gospel meeting. And I would say probably the most scarring thing about that childhood was in the days before on demand. I never saw the Wizard of Oz until I was an adult. Because the Wizard of Oz always broadcast on Sunday nights. And unless we were sick. We were in church on Sunday night.
But I had a wonderful upbringing, a close knit family, a close knit church. But when it comes to science my family, or my church, or my youth group, would have no more discussed or debated evolution than we would have discussed or debated the existence of Jesus. It just was a non issue. And so, as far as science is concerned, I really didn't have any questions about where modern science fit into the Bible until I probably reached about middle school. That was the first real introduction I had had to some serious biological science.
And through middle school, and high school, I began to have some disconnect between what I was hearing at church regarding origins. And what I was learning through biology regarding origins. But I managed just to kind of wall it off, in my mind and conveniently not think about it. You know, at best, I might have said well, you know, can we squint one eye and look really, you know, far away, and try to make the fossil record fit the Genesis dates of creation. And that's about as deep into trying to sort it all out as I got.
I went to a Christian university, I got a great undergraduate biology education. But we conveniently ignored the topic of evolution or where modern science fit into all of this. Now we weren't told that evolution was a lie or anything like that. We were told here it is in the textbook, you need to know about it, read it on your own time. And you know, that was it. And so I went on, I got graduate degrees in education, but both degrees, my masters and my PhD were focused on science education. And when my kids were little, I began to read and research more on my own regarding modern science and the Genesis account of origins. And it kind of coincided with two professors at my Christian University who got in a lot of hot water, because they had began teaching evolution overtly in their classrooms and one particular was a beloved professor of mine, I taught labs for him. And this man lost his career, lost his career he was he was broken because alumni came after his job for the sin of teaching evolution to these little Christian students in a Christian university.
And so that really was the motivation for me, you know, 20-25 years ago, to really begin researching, reading going to, you know, original sources on my own to try to find out what was behind all this. And this (is a) subject that I was teaching, you know, I didn't have that grasp of evolutionary biology.
Seth Price 10:45
So you said an alumni at either I don't know which universities either with Abilene Christian and Hardin Simmons. I thought you went to Hardin Simmons as well, or maybe not.
Janet Kellogg Ray 10:56
No, well my master's is from there.
Seth Price 10:57
I visited both those schools and then went to neither I went to liberty. But yeah, visited both. So you saw people lambasting your professor and decided, I'd like to do that for a living. Come at me.
Janet Kellogg Ray 11:14
Absolutely!!!
I have a bit of a contrarian into my nature,
Seth Price 11:18
She said game on, let's go. Um, so a question that I that has nothing to do with your book. But um, it matters to me, especially because most people don't understand where I'm coming from. But I think that you will. And so the way that I read the Bible, there's really only one correct answer to In and Out Burger or What A Burger. And only a Texan can answer this question. And so I just would just like to know, get kind of your take on that.
Janet Kellogg Ray 11:45
On In and Out or What A Burger?
Seth Price 11:47
Correct. Yeah.
Janet Kellogg Ray 11:47
Well, first I have to tell you that you're asking that question of a vegetarian. So…
Seth Price 11:54
Culturally answer then…
Janet Kellogg Ray 11:56
Culturally. But I will tell you, I like hamburgers without the meat on them. So if I had the choice of those two hands down, its What A Burger, they have better fries.
Seth Price 12:08
Fair enough. It's been a running gag, I think since the first year of the show. Really enjoyed it. Yeah, it's been fun. Um, so you're at North Texas now you've written a book, Baby Dinosaurs on the Ark? And then we don't know each other? Well, Janet, but I'm a big fan of sarcasm. And so I just would like to start with a stupid question that my children asked because this book has been on my counter, to the, table to my bedside it as I read it, it follows me around. It's been in my car, you know? Yeah, my six year old said, how many? How many baby dinosaurs are on the ark? Because at a six year old level, they're talking about the Ark at church. Right? And so her question keeps being how many? And I promised her that I would ask, so how many baby dinosaurs on the ark? Now I also want to be clear, I've read the entire book. So I'm aware of the answer. But for her, what would you say to them?
Janet Kellogg Ray 13:02
What would I say to your to your daughter?
Seth Price 13:06
Yeah, how many? How many?
Janet Kellogg Ray 13:08
Well, I would have to say zero. Zero, baby dinosaurs on the ark. 65 million years separate the last dinosaur from the first human. So it would be impossible for a boat builder named Noah to put any dinosaurs on his ark.
Seth Price 13:29
Fair enough. Yeah, now she's enjoyed looking at these pictures. She's also insinuated that she did also ask, why are there elephants with this dinosaur? Those are her words. Like why? Yeah, she's, she's clever. Um, okay. No, but for real, real questions. So this book tries to tackle science in a way that I don't require a PhD to read it. Which is great, because I'm good at a few things. I don't know that science is on those I kind of trust my people in my life that that's what they do to tell me science. And so what, how do I want to say this? As a Christian growing up in Texas, I totally get what you were saying earlier about your upbringing, being at church three days a week, etc, etc. Where do you feel like the disconnect is between young earth creationism, which is pretty much the under arching foundation of this text? And the world in general? Like, where is that disconnect? How did we get there?
Janet Kellogg Ray 14:28
Well, that's a great question. And I think the bottom line is that what most people who deny evolution, deny the age of the Earth, what most people who deny those things know about evolution, or the age of the Earth, comes from anti-evolution sources. And so, as a result, there is a tremendous amount of misconceptions regarding origins, both biological evolution and the age of the Earth. And I think if you have always been told that evolution is equivalent to atheism (then) you were not motivated to do any further study on your own. And so as a result all of your information about these sciences comes from resources that from the outset are in denial about any science evidence regarding origins, the age of the Earth, the age of the universe, biological evolution. And so I think that it's just a matter of where you get your information. If you only get your information about evolution from young earth creationist resources, you know, that's where you're going to land. You're going to doubt the science, you're going to think scientists are lying to you because of an atheist agenda.
You know and how often have we seen that in connection with the study of evolution through young earth, or even old earth creationist eyes is that there is an atheistic agenda to remove God, in this case, you know, from your child's education by teaching them evolution. So I think a big problem. And probably the root of the problem is that what most evolution deniers know about evolution comes from anti-evolution resources.
Seth Price 16:39
So the question that I've had, as I've read through your book is, now I am not a young earth creationist, though I used to be. I don't read Genesis that way. I don't know how you could read it that way. If you've read it, intentionally, or literally, in the way that Pete Enns would say. You know, reading a Bible, literally. So there are often though scientific agendas in scientific research or publications, I'm thinking specifically of like, lead in gasoline, tobacco research, you know, where people are paying for disinformation effectively. With that in mind, how does a Christian that believes the way that you and I believe have a conversation with someone wrapped up in cognitive bias about what they've been taught about young earth creationism in a way that they just don't get further entrenched, and we just don't both leave entirely frustrated, because I don't find that as helpful. Though I do find the underlying belief in young earth creationism and that type of reading of biblical text, or scripture period, regardless of the religion, to be really dangerous when it comes to things like, my wife is a cancer, pediatrics nurse, like, those doctors say the same thing about like, you know, other science? And so it's weird when you can believe one thing and not believe the other, you know, disregard one and not disregard the other. So how does one have a conversation, and a fruitful way to begin to try to come to an understanding of it's, it's much bigger than these three chapters in Genesis would have a belief?
Janet Kellogg Ray 18:14
Okay, so is your question, then, you know, how do we, if science is always changing, then?
Seth Price 18:20
No, no, my question is, so I'm having a conversation, I read your book, I buy the book, I read the book, and I start to begin having conversations with maybe people that I'm in church with, or maybe my family. And they're like, yeah, that's not what it says. And people just get so cognitive bias(ly) dug into their viewpoint, and where it's got to be this way outside of that the world is following. So how does someone that has a different view of what the foundations of the Earth are the creation, order of the universe, etc? How do we begin to have conversations with one another, when there's not that underlying foundation of commonality between the two of us?
Janet Kellogg Ray 18:56
Well, you know, you hit on a couple of things there, you know, and to address that with someone who just, you know, is saying, you know, my loyalty is to God, my loyalty is to the Bible. And if the Bible says this, if there's a conflict with science, I'm always going to go with the Bible. You know, that that's what a person of faith would do. You know, and then I might just approach that by saying that, you know, what is the cost? What is the cost to denying things that are demonstrable, that are observable? You know, so many things about our religion, our faith, require faith. That's why we're called people of faith. The things that are most important in my life are things that I believe. I believe my family loves me, I believe in the resurrection (and) in the incarnation, but I cannot prove these things or demonstrate these things using the science method. They aren't subject to the scientific method (but) doesn't mean they're not important. So with that in mind, how are Christians credible in things that require faith if we deny evidence in black and white, deny scientific evidence in black and white, you know, there's a cost to that. And more and more, you know, the research tells us the surveys and the polls tell us, then if people are given a choice between science and faith, more and more, they're choosing science. They're not choosing their faith and ignoring their science, they're going the other direction. They're choosing science and dropping their faith.
And so I would also say that there is a disconnect, if you, like you say your wife works with pediatric cancer patients. And right now modern medicine as far as diagnosis and treatment of cancer is progressing by leaps and bounds because of our knowledge of modern genetics. Once the human genome was mapped, about two decades ago, and the work we've done since then, cancer research, cancer treatment, has really progressed. But what a lot of people don't understand is that the exact same science, that is saving lives, with new treatments with new ways of approaching cancers, is the exact science that tells us that all life is related. That we share common ancestry. That it's not different genetics, it's the exact same genetics. And we praise God when it saves our lives. But that same science when it says that we've evolved and share common ancestry, we say it's a lie. It can't be both things. It can't be true in one instance and a lie in the other instance. And so there is just some intellectual dishonesty, I think, that we have to face if we are going to say “no, I'm going to take a literal Genesis above all else because the Bible is the Word of God and that's what it says.”.
Seth Price 22:31
Yeah. What do we do with the creation story then and stories like Noah, if we're gonna look at them, not in a literal way, in the way that I think people are hearing you say, literal. The way that I was raised. Six literal 24 hour days? Because of course, the Gregorian calendar existed for the ancient Near East. Of course, that's happened! So what do we do with the creation stories that we were raised with?
Janet Kellogg Ray 22:55
Well, you know, for people of my generation, the scriptures that are burned into our hard drive come from the King James Version. And there was a verse that I can probably quote, I may botch it here now, from the King James, from my growing up years, that talked about what you do with scripture. And it went something like
Study to show yourself or approved to God, a workman that shouldn't be ashamed.
And the end of that scripture was
rightly dividing the word of truth.
Well, we always kind of interpreted that growing up as you gotta be right. You know, you study your Bible, so you know that you're right. It was more of an approach to prove yourself correct and somebody else wrong. But in reality, that phrase there that is interpreted or translated in the King James as “rightly dividing the word of truth” is probably better translated, as “correctly explains”. Correctly explains doesn’t quite have the same ring to it. But it does help us to understand what we should be doing when we read these creation stories in the Bible, and the flood story in the Bible.
And so in order to correctly understand what's going on in these stories we need to do, as Pete Enns always says, we need to approach the Bible with ancient eyes. It's an ancient book. And so we have to approach it using ancient eyes and understand that the Bible didn't just fall out of the sky made of a whole cloth. And even within the Bible itself, there's a world of difference between these very ancient, you know, Iron Age stories that we read about in Genesis. And then in New Testament we read accounts from a Greco-Roman world. And there's a huge amount of difference in how we read these two stories, how each of these two parts of the Bible approach genealogies for example, historical events, for example. You know, the New Testament is in quite often very specific about what kings were on the throne, what Caesar's were there, what governors were there. And so we don't see that kind of thing in the early chapters of Genesis.
So that should tell us that history is being approached in two very different ways. And in order to correctly explain, or to correctly understand what we're reading in Genesis regarding the creation accounts, and the Noah story, we need to look at these accounts through very ancient eyes and see what is going on. In the stories in light of the culture, the history, the time the language from which they arose.
Seth Price 26:43
When you said the Bible dropping down is one huge cloth. I started laughing I don't know if you saw me or not, because all I could see is just some huge ribbon falling down and somebody picking it up and going. Ah, yes!
Janet Kellogg Ray 26:54
Yes. This is it!
Seth Price 26:55
Finally! Thank God! Yes, I get it now. Excellent.
Janet Kellogg Ray 26:58
All the answers right here.
Seth Price 27:01
Yeah, um, so the Noah story. I wanted to zone in there. So you've got a chapter called It's raining. It's pouring the canyon is forming. There it is. Yeah, it's too early in the morning for rhymes. So what do we do with a story like that when presented with new histories like the Epic of Gilgamesh, which you talk about a bit in your book? You've also got in here that there was um, who was it? George Smith? Is that it? Yeah. George Smith, is outside of Ken Ham and Kentucky. That's the only Ark that I'm familiar with. You know that that is a real thing, although it flooded not too long ago. I don't know if you read that in the news or not. That was hilarious. Yeah. When there was all the flooding, which is not hilarious. A few years ago, the Ark there literally was not able to (float) like it was it was flooding. It just the narrative. The optics from from afar was just hilarious to me.
Janet Kellogg Ray 28:00
The irony is escapable.
Seth Price 28:03
Yeah, so what do you think the purpose of a story like the Noah story is? How do you read that story in light of things like Gilgamesh and that type of stuff—other epics have around the same time period in the same region of the world? Like, what purpose is that serving for us as Christians?
Janet Kellogg Ray 28:16
Well, I write a bit about this in the book. But we do have evidence, scientific geological evidence, that there was a catastrophic flood in the area of the Mediterranean and the Black Sea, somewhere around 7500 years ago, so pretty ancient history. And from the evidence that we have this flood was devastating and probably completely just annihilated any farms or farmland that would have been around the perimeter of the Black Sea. And so for people living in that time, it probably felt like the world was coming to an end. And so you know, we have no way of knowing there's no way of knowing scientifically, if this particular flood that we have evidence for in the fossil record, in the geologic record, we have no way of knowing if this flood was the motivation for the Noah story or any of the other many flood stories that come out of the same geographical area.
There are flood stories from all around the ancient near Middle East, including Israel. In fact, as I mentioned in the book, the stories that come from outside Israel are actually older than the Genesis story. And so it's not surprising that if there was a devastating flood long ago in this part of the world that there would be in the collective memories of these cultures some sort of flood story. Now, each of these flood stories tells the story in slightly different way. For example, some of the stories outside of Genesis attribute things to multiple gods. That the gods were annoyed with humans, because the humans were making too much noise. And humans weren't serving the gods the way they should. But still, we still see the same details, you see animals being brought aboard a big boat, you see a man in his family, you see birds being sent out. All of these in stories outside the Genesis account.
In the Genesis account, you have a different picture of God, you don't have a god that's annoyed with humans for a trivial reason. You have a God who is disappointed in humans, because of their failure to live up to moral standards and failures to not fall into evil ways. And so each of these cultures in this ancient Middle East, have these flood stories with just a bit of a different twist on the meanings behind the flood story.
Seth Price 31:40
How then, can we zoom that out? So one of the things that I like to say is that I worship a God that is expanding in love faster than the universe is expanding. Which is the prettiest way that I can try to wrap my brain around God. So how do we scale up a view of Scripture where we're not reading things so literal into when you and I are walking out, walking with our kids, looking at creation, looking at what is here, what exists. How do we take new lenses, and begin to reinterpret what we see on a daily basis, and then use that to then read scripture in a much deeper way?
Janet Kellogg Ray 32:20
I think we need as people of faith need to get past the idea that just because something has a natural explanation does not mean that anything is demeaned. So in other words, if we can explain how creation came about, if we can explain, for example, how God “did it” this is not demeaning. We need to get past the idea that if the beautiful world that we see, came about through billions of years, through natural processes, it does in no way mean that God was not the originator, the Sustainer, the wisdom underlying it all the logos underlying creation, it doesn't have to be a one time miraculous event in order to be worthy of worship, in order to be worthy of praising God for.
I like to use the example of children, you know, many people will pray for the gift of a child. And when a child is born the parents thank God for the miracle of this child's birth and the gift of this child. However, everyone realizes that it's a completely natural nine month process, embryological process, fertilization process, and natural process every single step of the way, that brought that miracle about, that brought that gift about, that child about. And even before the nine month in rheological, natural process, you have meiosis, the formation of gametes, and we could go trace it further and further back.
Seth Price 34:25
The formation of what? You said Gam, gam, Gam what? Gametes‽
Janet Kellogg Ray 34:29
The formation of egg and sperm that's called a gamete. Okay, o bring together the genetics between mother and father it's completely unnatural process. Yet we still thank God for the gift of a child. So I think as people of faith, we need to get past the idea that just because something has a natural explanation, does not demean whatever it is we're explaining. You know, you grew up in Texas, you know, we quite often pray for rain in our church when it's dry, doesn't raining for weeks and months on end. And when it does rain, we thank God for it. But no one thinks that the biblical explanation of rain and snow being held in literal store houses which God pours out upon the earth is the way that rain occurs. We believe that rain is a natural occurrence through the water cycle. And we don't think that that's demeaning of a rain. Of God giving us rain.
Seth Price 35:38
Yeah, this has not got anything to do with your book. But you saying that reminds me of I think it was Utah, Idaho, maybe Colorado's Governor last year saying we just need to pray for more rain. It'll fix it. While I was yelling at him. Like you realize that you set all these water tables in an overwhelmingly abundant period. So maybe you should just stop using so much of the Colorado River. That has nothing to do with anything but I was like what's wrong with you people? (Janet laughs) Stop praying and just adjust your…anyway? Anyway, that's a consumption mentality. Anyway, doesn't matter. Someone read your book or other books like it, or they'll begin to listen to people like Francis Collins who was born and lives not far from where I currently sit. And it begins to rock their faith. What is one practice do you think that they could begin to center on to say it's, it's going to be okay. This doesn't have to hurt, it's going to be a little bit. But it doesn't have to be the thing that that makes me just jettison my faith because I was, “lied” to about this, which is I'll put those words in my mouth, not in your mouth. But what is one practice do you think that people can begin to wrestle with? Because this happens a lot like I'm at Christmas, I had a conversation with a friend about whether or not Mary was a virgin, which really is no different than the creation arguments. And it's all about interpretation and translations of scripture from it doesn't matter. There are a lot of things like that in the Bible. And I've found that once you start doing one, you have new eyes to see. And then as you're reading more, you're like, wait, but Oh, no! And wait, but Oh, no! And just a constant level of Oh, no! So what do you think would be a practice for people to say, hey, it's going to be okay, try to focus on doing this, what would that be for you?
Janet Kellogg Ray 37:26
When I first began to study the science behind origins in earnest, you know, a few decades ago, one filter that was important to me, and still is to this day, and I think would be totally invaluable to anyone beginning on this journey. And that is to understand that science and faith are not in conflict, because they answer two different questions. And because they answer different questions that cannot be in conflict. Science answers questions of the how and the when and faith answers questions of the who and the why. Science can never answer the question of who and why. Science doesn't attempt to answer questions of the who and the why. Science answers questions of the how and the win.
But both questions, both category of questions, are needed in our life. Both are important. In fact, if you were going to make a scale of what's most important in my life, it's going to be the who and the why. Those are the most important things in my life. But that doesn't mean that science cannot tell me about the how and the when. And I think that when you're starting to feel that disconnect, you're starting to feel that unmooring, from this book (the Bible) that if you were like me was told was every word infallible. The Bible says it, we believe it. I grew up with where the Bible is silent we are silent & where the Bible speaks we will speak—and to unmoored yourself from that. I think it's important to understand that your faith and science are answering two very different questions; both very needed questions but two different questions nonetheless.
Seth Price 39:38
I love that answer. I like that I'm taking that I'll try to remember to give you credit, but I'm stealing that. I like that answer quite a bit. So two final questions, questions that I ask of everyone. So one is just a play on words of the name of the show. So what do you as an educator, as a person, as a human think that congregants in our church should be allowed to discuss without fear of getting thrown out, or ostracized? And if not, the decay of the church will just continue whatever version of its hospice care it's been in for the last few decades. What are some of those topics that you think should be there?
Janet Kellogg Ray 40:18
Well, first of all, I think we've got to make our churches a safe place to doubt. You know, I've heard it said, I think Rachel Held, Evans was the first person I heard to quote this, but something along the lines of the opposite of faith is not doubt the opposite of faith is certainty, that if you're sure about something, then you no longer have faith. And so we've got to make our churches a safe place to ask questions.
You know, curiosity, unfettered, does not lead to doubt. And I think that that is a fear of of many in our churches; especially parents, as they are raising teens that are beginning to question more and more. Some of the best conversations that I've had, and have been since I since the book came out. And even before that, when I was writing blogs on this topic. Where parents, it's usually parents at church will come up and maybe quietly, you know, ask to talk to me later about their child, and concerned about their child because the things that they are hearing in youth group. The things that they think they're being told in church they find to be in conflict with what they know, to be true from science.
And these parents are terrified, terrified, that their children are going to lose their faith because of this disconnect. Or even just the mere fact that they're asking questions that they're doubting what they've been told. And so I think it goes beyond science, you know, what we've been told about patriarchy, about women, traditionally have been holding in our churches. We need to feel free to ask these questions and more than just ask them have discussions. And more than just have discussions! I’ve had a lot of discussions, but not always with the deciders, not always with the people in the churches, where I belong, or making the decisions. You know, I can have lots of conversations at lunch at night with my friends online. But we need to maybe have these conversations more openly. And not be afraid when people express their doubts, not be afraid when people express their questions. Because curiosity is doesn’t de facto lead to the death of someone's faith?
Seth Price 43:08
Yeah, no, I'd argue it makes it much, much, much richer. Yeah, I read it on Facebook the other day or somewhere that you can only wrestle with something that you're close to. Which I relate with that a lot like I've never felt closer to God than when I'm wrestling with something that doesn't make any sense at all.
When you try to say what God is and wrap words around whatever the heck that is what do you say to that?
Janet Kellogg Ray 43:34
Whoo!
I was asked this question one time, in front of a large audience, and I wasn't expecting it. And the question was very similar. It said, as a person of science who understands that the universe came about through natural means why are you still a believer? Why God? Why are you personally still a Christian? And again, I don't have an answer that could be subject to the scientific method. It's all a matter of faith for me.
But I would say the best answer I have to that is…why is there something rather than nothing? I can't get past that age old question. Why is there something rather than nothing is my first answer.
And my second answer is just simply the story of Jesus compels me. I can't…I can't turn away from it. And so because the story of Jesus keeps drawing me in and I can't turn my back on that. And then the question of why is there something rather than nothing? I just keep pressing forward with that. Again, I think it was Rachel Held Evans that said,
Christianity is something that I'm willing to be wrong about.
And I think that very perfectly describes my approach to this.
I had given up at, you know, I gave up a couple of decades ago, and especially within the last 10 years, I gave up feeling like I had to have all of the answers that was hard to let go of, because that was my upbringing, was that we can know. There's one way to do church one way to be a Christian, one way to live a Christian life. And here are the rules we can know. And I have learned that we don't have all the answers. And what I have learned to be comfortable with is that tension; to live with that tension of not having all of the answers and to embrace the mystery of it.
And that was also something that I wasn't brought up with was if there was a mystery that could be embraced. I had to get past that if I just read the Bible enough and have enough faith, I'll lose all of these doubts. I'll find all the answers that I need.
I have more questions than ever but I'm also more okay with it than ever. Okay with the mystery and okay with the questions.
Seth Price 46:28
Yeah, no, I agree. 100% 100%.
Janet Kellogg Ray 46:32
Much more so than I was when I was feeling that intellectual dishonesty that I was having to make, for example, the science fit Genesis. In order to be loyal to my faith I had to somehow force fit that science into Genesis somehow. And it didn't feel honest, it felt very intellectually dishonest. And that was not a good feeling that I liked to sit with at all.
Seth Price 47:03
Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah. And explaining Genesis to my son a few weeks ago, on the way to church, he asked me. So he plays in the he plays the drums for us in our little band that we have a church. And he was asking me about creation. And he told me something that someone at school had told him because that's, that's the gospel right there. You know, here in the Bible Belt. I mean, you get it, it's just a different, I'm in a different notch, but we're still in the same belt. And he's like, “Well, this is what it says in Genesis”, and I was like, interesting. Here's my phone, pull up the Bible. It's right there on the homepage. I don't care the translation, just pick one and start at the beginning should be easy for you to find no page numbers, just digital. As like, read it to me, slowly. And so we broke it down, verse by verse.
And I was like, so that's interesting. Everything that you just told me is not in that one that you just read. Go forward a bit, read this other one. He's like, “Oh, this is the one I know”. I was like, Yeah, you can't put the two together. I was like, now you didn't ask me, my little boy. But I'm gonna tell you this first one is about things that God makes out of chaos are good. The second one is about one of those good things, bearing his image and now making more good things. So it's not about how things got here. It's about what we do with the stuff now that it's here. And he just got real quiet. I don't know if that's the right answer. But it was the answer that I came up with at early in the morning.
Janet Kellogg Ray 48:18
No! I think that’s perfect, because I think that it goes to the very heart of why people feel uncomfortable with evolution when it comes to human beings. Because it comes back to that role that we have as image bearers of God in the world. And that somehow we demand that in order to be an image bearer we have to have been miraculously created out of the dust of the earth and patted together like Play Doh, and, you know, make a little human. And now, somehow this human bears God's image. And again, who says, who made the rules that a natural process is demeaning? And that a creature that came about through natural processes ordained by God cannot be God's image bearers.
You know this statement may concern some people, but I've asked it before. You know, does it really matter if we evolved to have five fingers or six as long as we are projecting God into the world? Does it really matter what our physical body evolved to be if we are fulfilling that role of the second chapter, that you read with your son, of being God's image bearers?
Seth Price 49:43
Yeah, yeah, I think the way I ended it with him is, I can paint a story of scientifically how me and your mom made you or I can tell a story about how we fell in love and out of that love became you. And I was like you can do the same thing. You know, I was like, that's all that really matters. What are you doing with what's been created now go make something and call it good.
So anyways, yeah. Where do you want people to go Janet? They listen to the convo and they're like, yeah, I should get the book. And I will also say, for those listening, you should get the book. It's very easy to read. Like, I've read some of it with my kids, I'm going to leave it out so they can read it. Because it's written in such a way that yeah, I think everybody can learn from it. So where do you want people to go to do the things that they should be doing, that you think that they should be doing as it relates to you and what you do? What a horrible sentence that was, what a horrible sentence that was.
Janet Kellogg Ray 50:32
I do have a blog at JanetKray.com, that I will I write on the blog, but I probably keep up more with my author, faiths Facebook page, or my personal Facebook page. I write a lot about science and culture and modern medicine, and I love where those things all intersect. And so I ride a lot, actually, just on Facebook, because it's very accessible. But I also ride at Janetkray.com.
You know, we didn't get into this, but what we're seeing during these last couple of years of pandemic, is we are seeing the fallout of decades and decades of telling Christians they can't believe scientists. And we're seeing fallout from that in the pandemic. So it's been interesting, it's been very interesting to me, how evolution denial and different areas of denial regarding the pandemic overlap. You've got that Venn diagram right there of evolution deniers, and vaccine deniers, pandemic approach deniers and there's a lot in common. You know, bottom line is Christians have been acclimated to scientists being liars (and) not telling them the truth. Where they always have to approach science through a biblical lens.
Seth Price 52:08
Yeah, while they take their medicine, trust a person to drill into their mouth with metal. Let them pump chemo into their body, but then say, you don't know what you're talking about anymore. Also, how many Tylenol do I take? I take three‽ Awesome. Thanks for letting me know what's safe.
Yeah, it's just I just…I just wish people would be consistent myself as well at times, so I don't know. Yeah, it's a mess. Yeah, I read your blog. I really liked your river fever, I think which is your last most recent post. Right? Yeah. Which I didn't know that. That's what ivermectin was for. And then I was like, What is this thing? Oh, seems to be a valid drug for a good purpose, but not for this. And I wish that it did work because it seems to be a lot cheaper. That would be amazing. It's too bad that it doesn't.
Janet Kellogg Ray 52:57
Ivermectin has a history humans, but not for that purpose. And not in those dosages.
Seth Price 53:05
Yeah. Perfect. Well, Janet, thank you so much for your time. I have enjoyed it this morning. Very much.
Janet Kellogg Ray 53:10
Me too! Thank you for asking me. It's been lots of fun.
Seth Price 53:28
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