Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Elizabeth Hagan 0:08
The brave churches are ones that are willing to really connect with their communities and with each other. I say when I went into the pastorate that I wanted to to be a pastor because I wanted to know and love people well, and I think that that doesn't…that that can only happen when we let go of a lot of like the churchy institutional stuff.
Seth Price 0:42
Hey there everybody, how are you doing? Welcome back to the Can I Say This At Church podcast. It is, I think, today's the last day of May at episode release. So happy Memorial Day to the United States and happy May 31 or maybe June 1, depending on where you are in the globe, listening to this, but I am happy that you were here. So a couple quick PSAs. So I have at least one, maybe two or three new designs to run up in the store. I am still working through that. I wasn't happy with the storefront for the merchandise and so yeah, be patient with me, I'm working on it. When it comes back, I'd like it to be something that I'm a little happier with. And that's not where we were last time. So my apologies for that.
Now, this summer is going to be crazy for me. And as I alluded to a few weeks ago, I need to make sure I make space for myself to recharge and most importantly for my family, my wife, my kids. And so you will see some repeat episodes. This is a new one this week and the next week, I'm going to bring back one of my favorite guests for a repeat episode. So we'll call those like, what vintage vintage episodes. I don't know if a four year old podcast can have vintage anything. But you know what I mean…I'm rambling. Here we go.
Years ago, when I started this show, my goal was to have conversations for me that I wish that I could ask in a church, or I wished that I would have been able to ask in a church back in the day, and just see what happens. Like where I grow and learn and how that changes the way I view God. And it has been so good for me. But that's just me. So I brought on a guest and we had a conversation about that but at an institutional level. What it looks like for a church to bravely step into intentional conversations that are around that premise? And I think it can be scary for churches. Shoot, I know it was scary for me still sometimes is. But I think it's healthy, and it's intentional and needed very much so and so with no further ado, welcome to the summer, maybe your kids are out of school, maybe they're not maybe you don't care. Doesn't matter. We're going to do the thing. Let's go.
Seth Price 3:27
Elizabeth Hagan, here we go. Someone on Twitter put us in connection with one another. And then we've circled around one another for like, what, two months? And that's my fault. Honestly, I send the message and I forget about it. (Elizabeth laughs) Just asked my wife. But welcome to the show.
Elizabeth Hagan 4:29
I'm glad I'm here. Thank you for having me.
Seth Price 4:32
Yeah, that conversation happened today. I was talking to her. And she's like, “Did you see my text message?” Which she had sent six or seven hours earlier? My answer was, “no. I can look at it at the red light if you want. When we get to a red light, I'll look at it”. And she’s just like, “it doesn't matter anymore”. I'm the worst at responding to anything. So it's not just you.
Elizabeth Hagan 4:08
No, I'm married to that! I have to go put a form in front of his face and “say sign this now” if we want it to be done.
Seth Price 4:17
I don't know, I can be so organized at work. And I think when I'm just not at work, that part of my brain needs to rest. That's what I'm going to say.
Elizabeth Hagan 5:10
The world needs all types may go around. That's what I say. (both laugh)
Seth Price 5:15
Yeah. What would you say the answer to be when someone says what are you or who are you like, what is that answer? Which I'm aware that that's extremely open ended. So you can run with that wherever you want.
Elizabeth Hagan 4:44
Sure, I think the first word I would say is I'm a pastor. That's something that's been a part of my identity for I guess the past. I think it's 15 years now. I guess I'm getting old. I grew up in a tradition where women were not encouraged to be pastors and they were not ordained. And it was a really big deal for me the way that I found myself to affirming congregations and made my way to ordination. I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church. And so yeah, and I was ordained American Baptist. Do you know the difference between the two?
Seth Price 5:17
No, but I grew up Independent Regular Baptist.
Elizabeth Hagan 6:04
Oh! Cool! You’re like one of the 100
Seth Price 6:08
I'm from way West Texas, I don't know much about the difference between those two.
Elizabeth Hagan 5:28
Yes, it was really big deal to me when that finally happened. Because I had felt really interested in all things spiritual, and I was young, I was kind of geeky like that. But I was always told that I had to marry a minister or maybe I could go to another country because that’s where we send strong women.
Seth Price 5:49
If you would just emigrate, you're more than allowed to be you.
Elizabeth Hagan 5:52
So I started actually trying to, you know, have an apprenticeship of that. Like I saved, I'm telling you, like, I'm the geekiest, you know, former evangelical. But I worked at Chick-fil-A, because that's what all good evangelicals do when I was in high school. And I saved my Chick-fil-A money and I went to Kenya and Tanzania to study under missionaries when I was 18 by myself. And it turned out being this like, really dreadful experience, because these people that I had idolized, I'd grown up like, missionaries are like the best Christians in the world. And I found out, I went to this huge mission conference, and they were some of the most miserable people I'd ever met. And they really weren't kind, in general. And so my life kind of shifted at that point. And it's kind of a miracle I found my way back into something that is ministry related. But I'm really happy I did because it's an important part of what I do now.
Seth Price 6:49
What would you say the biggest thing, the differences between an American Baptist and a Southern Baptist is? Because I don't know those differences.
Elizabeth Hagan 6:55
Oh, you don't know. It's a cool story! The church I was actually ordained at was Calvary Baptist Church in Washington, DC, which is the founding Church of the American Baptist Church. And it was, where in the 1840 somethings, the Baptists of the North and the Baptists of the South came together and they were arguing over slavery-as the country was-and then the Baptist said, “Well, we believe in slavery in the South, and we don't in the North”. And so they separated the way the country did. The American Baptist was used to be called the Northern Baptist.
Seth Price 7:28
Yeah, I knew the history of the Southern Baptists I just didn't ever…I’m from Texas so we don't learn about anything. And then yeah, it's not even in the book.
Elizabeth Hagan 7:35
I mean, I grew up in Tennessee, I knew nothing about it until I found myself in Washington. But it's kind of cool. They've always sort of stood for, you know, more social justice equality issues from that kind of beginning. But yeah, besides being a pastor, I'm, I'm a mom. And I'm an author. My first book was about called birth, finding grace through infertility was about our journey of, of making our way into Parenthood. And so I'm really passionate about adoption, because that's how my daughter found us. And I'm also really interested in orphan care, because of some work that my husband and I have done through some of his jobs he's had through the years and I started a foundation several years ago called our courageous kids, that helps kids who grown up in international orphanages be able to have money, they need to be able to go to college or to have mental health support, because of the trauma that happens to kids in these settings. You know, giving them an opportunity for education is one thing, but if you don't heal the past, and it doesn't really matter. And anyway, that's something I've been involved in for, I think about the past five years, and it's been really cool. We've had some students live with us. We had a student who was going to college in the US quarantine with us during COVID. lockdown simply had a new family member for all that time. A long haul for the long haul. Yeah, and make really good Kenyan Chowpatty, which is this really neat, like flatbread kind of had its roots in India that I learned from our one of our Kenyan daughters. And
Seth Price 9:11
how long were you in the Virginia DC area? Those that's why so I actually live out here in Charlottesville are
Elizabeth Hagan 9:16
awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not there. Now. I'm on a sabbatical year of sorts, down in Georgia with some of our family, but my roots are in DC. And you know, that's where I've been all my adult life.
Seth Price 9:31
So yeah, the book that you've written, I just want to also be clear, I haven't read your first book. Oh, that's fine. Fine. Yeah, though. You reference it off and on. So I have a feeling. I know a bit about what it's about in the little bit that you spoke about in the one chapter in this book. But as I read through the book, when I finished it, and I looked at the table of contents, I basically realized that every single one of your chapters is effectively an episode of the show. Like the thing people are like, we don't we don't We're good people here. And we don't want to make anybody uncomfortable. So we can talk about that on Wednesday night fellowship after everybody leaves.
Elizabeth Hagan 10:08
Right, right. And it's kind of hard. Now I want to talk about all those things, you know, I can't, I can't talk too fast. Yeah, but the idea of the fact that we don't, we aren't very good. And our faith communities about talking about real things, which is something you're passionate about, I know, is something that I developed a real interest in, especially after my book burst came out in 2016. And I was doing with authors to, you know, you speak at conferences and churches and things. And I had people tell me, please don't talk about that. But I'm like, you invited me to talk about my book? What am I supposed to say? Like, sing a song or say a prayer? I'm like, that's my topic. And they said, Well, that's just, you know. Yeah. And, or, you know, they would say, it's just for young people, you know, we have a bunch of old people in our group. And so I had to figure out another way, you know, to keep talking about something, you know, I wanted people to know about. And so I started doing these grief workshops, where I would talk about all the things we don't talk about in church and and have people tell their stories. And I mean, I just was, it came to be so clear that we just, there's so many things we don't talk about, and that maybe our congregations need more tools about how to begin to open up those discussions. Yeah. Did you
Seth Price 11:44
just say, do you think that there was a time or place that the churches actually did encourage conversation of this manner? And that in just your experience, your training your minister, you talk to other ministers, or pastors or Reverend, I don't know what the word is? It's, it's whatever it is. That maybe have we ever done it better? Because I, I see a lot of like communities like podcast communities, having conversations like this, and a lot of people mln. But do I only know about my church? You know, what I mean? Do you feel like, there was a time we've done it better than what we do now? Or is it maybe getting better?
Elizabeth Hagan 12:22
Oh, well, I think that there are pockets of communities that talk about some of these things. And that's a lot of the work I did for putting this book together. I I sought out innovative communities around the country that were talking about these topics and what that looked like, and how they integrated that into their, their community life. But I That's a really great question, like historically, like, from church history. Have we always been such a close? I don't know. I mean, you know, when your your whole system, you know, gets to be such a institutional hierarchal, you know, especially when it's just men in charge, you know, yeah, there's a lot of like, toe, the company line that goes on. Yeah. But you know, one thing that someone asked me recently, I said, you know, it seems like people can talk about this stuff like on Dr. Phil,
Unknown 13:14
can we use
Seth Price 13:15
that Texas drawl? You just have to change your accent? Yeah. And then it's acceptable. Right? So the churches that would tell you don't talk about that, did you just do it anyway? Or not show up? Or what would happen there?
Elizabeth Hagan 13:31
Well, you know, you, you tone it down when you have to, but I mean, I I had many occasions over that period of time where I was asked to give sermons. And I kind of got tired of hearing my own sermons, but I give sermons where I'd use the word infertility and talk about my own struggles in the context of, of the sermon I was giving. And in many cases, people told me afterwards, that's the first time they'd ever heard that word uttered in church. And that felt to me like a real shame because it's a statistic say that one in eight couples struggle to conceive. And so that's everyone, you know, and everybody knows someone. And in the case of, you know, saying, well, it's just an issue for young people. I had 60 somethings, come up to me on several occasions and tell me about their struggles with miscarriage or tell me about how they were one of the first families in the US that had IVF and how they were so embarrassed to admit that to their friends, and so, you know, that's just one topic, but I think there's just so much that we feel unnecessary shame about in a faith community because we're, we talk so much about I don't know what, how you grew up, but I mean, in the churches where I was raised, we were really good at the ology or Bible stories, things like that. But we didn't really talk about people and like, how real life affects people. And then how you find your way in faith because of say, someone in your family went to jail or because you know, your best friend has an eating disorder, or and someone else in my high school, that was one of my good friends used to cut herself. And it's like, oh, gosh, we don't say that allow, you know?
Seth Price 15:18
Yeah, I don't I don't know what my old church growing up was good at without being really sarcastic. I've never actually given that a lot of thought I'm certain they were good at something and still are, they still exist. Maybe they were good at casseroles. Were a Baptist Church, we could cook. by me. I think most churches can because I've been to a lot of church meals. And most churches, they come with that a game. I want to pivot a bit. So in your work, or in this book, specifically, you lay out at least five maybe more like ground rules for when faith communities want to have conversations about things in a way that hopefully you don't divide the church into another church, because we're really good at what's my pastor say, we're really good at multiplication by subtraction like we have. We have 28 more churches, but no more believers in the city. We just right. But we have more churches, we're really regrowing, we're doing it. There's step two, though, and I highlighted it. I don't know how that works. And so I'll, I'll read it back to you. How does one either either someone facilitating uncomfortable conversations, or me having one, especially because that's all we do anymore is yell about politics, or masks or COVID, or guns or whatever you put in here that you have to learn how to own your intentions, and your impact. And know that your words can hurt other people. And I feel like most people understand that because I've seen my words, cut people. But I don't know how to always own my intentions, and more importantly, my impact, at least in the moment. So can you rip that specific thing apart a bit?
Elizabeth Hagan 16:52
Well, I think a lot of people say as an excuse, like, well, just don't take this personally, you know, like, I mean, well, just, you know, take it Take my word at a grain of salt or whatever. People use as caveats. But the real issue at stake is that when we're talking about things with each other, sometimes, and maybe even oftentimes, we say things, even if we didn't mean to that hurt people. And I think what we tend to not do very well in the church is to own the fact that we could be offensive to someone, even if we didn't mean to be offensive. And it doesn't mean that we're going to realize that in the moment. But you know, an example, when I was teaching this to my congregation, while I was writing it, we were talking about this, and we you know, it was fresh on people's minds. And we were sitting in a church council meeting, you know, everybody's favorite thing, administrative live at a church. And, you know, someone ended up you know, was, you know, waxing and waning about something, and then made a comment that another member of the group felt like, was really sexist. And he didn't mean it to be. Or at least he said, he didn't mean it to be. And this was a conversation then that they were able to have afterwards kind of knowing that we were in the groove of this sort of brave space church, and able to understand the fact that what you said was not cool. To me, what you said, made me feel belittled. And And could you you know, just know what you reconsider what you said in the future. Maybe not say that again. And and I think that that is so powerful. I mean, because it opens up vulnerable strains of conversation and opens up opportunities for people to see how their words affects people. Yeah, we may not mean it, but it doesn't make it any less hurtful.
Seth Price 18:48
A question that kept bubbling up, as I read through your your book is, I encounter people that will not do that. And I think that's probably why I circled that where they're like, yeah, I hear that. But you're just, they'll use a pejorative illiberal, whatever, whatever. And they're just not going to do it. And they're also not going to leave the church, or my family, or my friends, community, or maybe I work with them and like, how do you navigate that when you think that we need to have this conversation? And you have told me you're not going to change? But I still need to say something like, how do you navigate through that, especially in a way that doesn't break other relationships?
Elizabeth Hagan 19:25
Well, I think it begins with the bigger picture of the conversation and of the relationship. I mean, I wrote this as a guide that a group of people would do it with intentionality. It's not just your, you know, you can't just take this and put the concept on a larger group without, I think that intentional covenant that you're going to make with each other to say, this is a sacred space. This is set of smart space, we're gonna practice something that's not natural to any of us. We'd rather just take our toys and go home. All right. And so we're gonna do this thing together and we're, we're going to make mistakes and we're not going I always get it right. But we want to practice this different way of being with each other knowing that we may not be able to practice it all the time, it may be too much or too hard. But that we we come to this brave space, we come to a brave church group. And we begin living out this work in a different way
Seth Price 20:18
of the topic. So I've got them over here. So yeah, I'm gonna bounce around quite a bit. If that works, so you asked the question, what does your church believe about submission? And you ask it in the question on domestic violence, I believe it's in domestic violence. Yeah. And I will say, That's not something that I talked about. And I'm happy to say it's also not something that necessarily my wife and I struggle with. But I know when I hear stories, that that's not always the case. And you see this stuff during quarantine, that those cases have arisen as other cases of other things. Because you're you're you're together, and you're angry and fearful and violent. What do you mean about like a theology or a doctrine of submission? Which Those are my words morphed onto your sentence? But what does that mean for someone listening? And they're like, I don't? What do you mean submission? And how does that relate to domestic violence? And then how do we kind of navigate those waters? Yeah. So
Elizabeth Hagan 21:12
in the domestic violence chapter, I lay out some theological issues that really to ask ourselves questions about how these theological teachings that we have in place, not every church has these but many do, how they lead to a culture that allows domestic violence to go unchecked. And in the, in the case of submission. It's this idea, you know, that there's men, and then there's women below, below them. And that, you know, the man is the head of the house, or the man is the head of the church, and women's voices, all domestic violence cases are not necessarily men against women, but the percentages tell us that most of them are. And so if a woman who was in a church that had a strong doctrine of submission, experienced abuse, emotional, physical, psychological abuse from her partner, it would probably be married partner, she would feel like I can't say no, you know, like this idea of like, I can't speak up, or I can't go against my husband, it's God's will that I allow him to be the head of my household or in the case of pastoral leadership, knowing that you couldn't go seek counsel from a woman who may be on the pastoral staff or in the leadership of the church, because they simply wouldn't be there. And how when we don't have women in on equal level, and we don't have women in equal leadership positions, how that just allows a culture of patriarchy to sweet domestic violence, really under the rug.
Seth Price 22:54
There's another part I think it's a few pages after that. So I do not even say this word because it's a Greek word. So you have four loves and I also never read this book by CS Lewis. I'm ashamed. I haven't literally over there, but I haven't read it. So can you rip apart What? Stargate so there's for those listening there's philia love which is friendship arrows, which is romantic a gabbay, which is the one that everybody talks about, because we got we only talk about the Apostle Paul and and the gospel of john in churches, we we know that that's all that we talk about. What is his story? Is that even the way you say it, like, what is that?
Elizabeth Hagan 23:30
I'm the worst, I like to great pass fail. So I'm not the expert on how you say things, but I'm just gonna say storage. And I, I was so happy in finding this resource and connecting it to the sexuality chapter. Because I know, in so many contexts, the issue of you know, are you for the LGBT teach? I can LBT it's too late at night. You know what I mean?
Seth Price 23:59
Please tell me LGBTQ.
Elizabeth Hagan 24:01
Oh, man, you're so brilliant. That, you know, either you're for or against that community and that can be so divisive. And and in churches, you know, churches, split denominations are splitting United Methodist churches splitting next year officially over this issue. And it becomes such a game that
Seth Price 24:22
is splitting. I thought they were like voting.
Elizabeth Hagan 24:24
Well, I think they've already voted and they're gonna finish the deal. Next year. I'm not United Methodist, so I shouldn't be speaking on the behalf of
Seth Price 24:33
Hobbes. I'm gonna go I'm gonna Google that. I'm gonna figure that out. Yeah,
Elizabeth Hagan 24:36
um, so yeah, it's it's such a big like splitting issue. But you know, my idea about this book is like, How do you stay in conversations in a healthy way, and this idea of like, you may not be able to have the kind of partnership kind of love for someone, or deep friendship, love that CS Lewis talks about But you can't have the storage love, which is the love of just common experiences. I mean, he writes about, you know, how you can be happy for, you know, someone that gives you your coffee, and that you see on a regular basis or someone you know, I think about church, you know, the older gentleman who passes you candy, you know, as you walk in the door, I don't, I had a sweet experience with an older man growing up, I always loved his peppermint, you know, and he might grow up, you know, I don't know what happened to him. But, you know, he might be the person when I'm a teenager who thought that I was just a terrible heathen. But you know, I still have affection for because of that sweet experience we had together, you know, sharing candy. And so we can find ways to be in community with people that we completely disagree, because we're all human beings. And there's certain experiences that we can share with one another, that we have familiarity with one another that that really do build our love. I mean, that's one thing I've heard a lot about related to COVID, since we all been stuck in our houses. So we haven't had that sense of community with the Starbucks barista that we used to have, or with the crop and guarded our kids school, because we just kind of stay with our own bubble of people and how much we can all wait to get out in the world. And we're reminded again, I think at this moment, like how, how much those little connections of community and, and the love that we share for these people, like I love the post office, I can't even tell you. The post office, absolutely not that was like a small child. So I know like all the postal clerks by name because I always think of reasons to mail people things, you know, and like, you know, we're never gonna hang out outside the post office, but I have like affection for them and, and how excited they are to, to see me and
Seth Price 26:53
we've reached that random point in the episode that I've got to do this, because capitalism is the beast that requires feeding. And you amazing people continue to help the show grow. And I got to help pay for that. So hang tight, and let's do this.
Unknown 27:13
Failure is not the fault. But it's the stallion down.
Seth Price 27:25
I will say so. During all of that, about this time last year, when they shut everything down, I can't tell you at the bank, how often a lot of our elderly clients would call and then we just talked for like an hour, because they come in every day to get their money, but they're there for 40 minutes, they just come in to talk, but I missed a lot of them. And when we could open the doors back up, I'm like, come on in here. How you doing? There is quite a bit of that. I want to ask this, how do I ask this question? I'm just gonna ask it. I don't know how to be. I don't know what the word is it doesn't matter. Is there a way to have conversations about this where at the end, both sides feel that they're progressing? Because inherently It feels like when we're working our way through an argument, there needs to be movement left or right. But is there a way in your experience that is you've helped her just kind of guide through being a brave church and actually having conversations with intention, that someone that the two sides began at opposites, and they still ended opposites. But they're both progressing, if that makes any sense at all.
Elizabeth Hagan 28:26
I think it has a lot to do with like the common goal of what you're trying to achieve if you're trying to win people to your side. And I mean, that's the only market right of success. One of the groups that I did some research on and talk about in the last chapter of the book is called better angels. And are you familiar? It's it's a group that began in 2016, after the Trump election, to help bring people together who voted for Trump and voted for Clinton. And they started with a weekend retreat where they had Democrats and Republicans equal number together in the same place very passionate once for a weekend. And they had that goal of like, can we can we move the needle any farther. And they had such a successful time together that people they really felt like in this the way they were organizing conversation, and people were actually committing to spend time together not just like sound biting each other, that they it birthed this kind of national nonprofit and movement. And I went to one of their all day workshop. And they called it Team Red and Team Blue and we had opportunities to talk about what we thought the others thought of us or what we thought of them talk about stereotypes and prejudice, but then we had to eat together and and process the groups and it was a really beautiful experience because you're reminded that people are more than these are my five points of what I believe on these particular issues, but these are like, human beings sitting in front of me. And I think, in our age when we're just spouting at one another on the internet, all the time, and we we've lost a sense of actually knowing people and, and not beginning a conversation where it's like, Okay, what do you believe on this issue? Okay, I'm on your team, or I'm not. But you really get to know that person as a human being. And you talk about the ways that you can connect, I mean, it's not like you're going to birth a relationship with someone who's very different from you, overnight. But if you commit to the process, I think beautiful things can happen, especially under the umbrella of a faith context, when you know that you're all gathered there with similar intentions. You have faith in God, and you want to learn more about what it means to follow Jesus and you have sacred text and you want to use your gifts to be helpful to people in the world. There's a lot of common ground you already have in that context. And so the more that we can humanize each other, I think beautiful things you really do.
Seth Price 31:06
Yeah, I think that's a good goal. Another relatively, I don't know, devil's advocate question. So all of the research shows that the churches of my pastor said this before that he if he was being tongue in cheek, the role of a pastor is to manage the hospice care of the church, as it slowly seems to be declining, in at least America, year after a year. And so I have to think that the overall bulk of the churches are not practicing, or even really care to practice a brave type of mentality as we try to work through with intention. As a pastor, what do you feel like that sunset is if we can't actually learn how to actually hear one another before, like, it's irreparably damaged as like a faith community, just across like, states, the cities like it, does that make any sense at all? But that question, yeah,
Elizabeth Hagan 32:03
I mean, it's a complex, it's a complex question. For sure. I agree with you that, yes, you know, I'm a part of my ordination as a part of the, what I would call the bubble of the mainline Protestant church, you know, in the 50s. And 60s used to be where all the people were. Now it's not. Most of the congregations I pastored, through the years have the majority of people that could be my parents, and not my peers. Which is fun, but not, doesn't look good, right for the future. Yeah. But I think that the churches I know that are vibrant, and I would call brave, are those that are willing to go beyond sort of the institutional gatekeeping type things, or we always do these holidays, or we always do it like this, or this is the pattern of our life together. The brave churches are ones that are willing to really connect with their communities and with each other, I say, when I went into the pastor, that I wanted to, to be a pastor, because I wanted to know and love people. Well, and I think that that doesn't, that's, that's can only happen. When we we let go of a lot of like the charity, institutional stuff, the church that I just finished, leading, actually, just a couple months ago, made a very brave decision. And I won't I don't want to say it's just because they did brave church as the one but I'm not sure. But and they really, really have received it, embrace it, right? Because they helped me write the book. But they made this really cool decision, which I'm so proud of them for, of morphing their administrative life into a nonprofit separate from the church, and allowing their property management and all their rentals to be given to another entity. And now they're just a safe community that doesn't have ties to the building, although they still meet in the same building, but they gave up their rental income and all their major, big administrative strongholds and gave money from their endowment to hire the executive director of this new nonprofit to create and why they did it was because the church, it was the Palisades Community Church in Washington, DC had been founded almost 100 years ago, as a ecumenical community for people in the neighborhood to send their kids to Sunday school. They didn't care whose name was on the door, but they were glad their kids could have some Christian education. And what they discovered was that people don't want Sunday school in the same way that they wanted 100 years ago for their kids, but people still want places to learn and to serve, and to gather. And so that's what this new hub nonprofit is about. It's a non churchy. I say a non church In the sense that not under any sort of religious programming, but they're still going to use the building and all its assets for places for people to have educational programs and people to connect and gathering spaces. And I just, I think that the church like that has to evolve, and not say, it has to be under this very particular umbrella that we like, and that makes us feel good about our traditions. Sometimes it's not going to be what we think it is. But yeah, it's going to be what people need.
Seth Price 35:32
Yeah. And that honestly sounds like a reframing of what people conceive as what churches because I think some people when they say church, they mean the body and what we do in the community, and sometimes when they say church mean a little bit of that, but also it's wrapped up into the memories inside these walls, right weddings and funerals. And that one message that, you know, it's wrapped up and all these other things that
Elizabeth Hagan 35:53
are somewhere to go on Sunday mornings at 11 o'clock, right? Like, just sit in the Pew that their great grandfather said,
Seth Price 36:01
See, I'm that bad Baptist that if my wife will let me we sit in a different seat every time. And I know it makes everyone uncomfortable. I love it. I absolutely love it. And it also makes my wife uncomfortable. I don't love that as much. So if you could add a chapter because you in here you talk about infertility, mental illness, which we haven't really touched on domestic violence, racism, sexuality, what would you add, if you could write it again today? Another book like Part Two? And what were those topics?
Unknown 36:34
Huh? What was the one topic
Elizabeth Hagan 36:36
that I had done some work on that I would have loved to put in the book, but decided it was probably too much was abortion. I would really love to written about abortion, in particular, because I know that it's such a divisive issue. You're pro life pro choice. The two shall never speak at one another, often not with kindness or civility at all. And I've encountered a ministry called Well, I say ministry, but it's not explicitly Christian, called exhale. And its its entire mission is to serve those who have been through abortions of no judgement. But knowing that they need support and care and love and need to be humanized for what they've experienced, no matter if they think it was the best decision they ever made, or they regret it with all their heart. They deserve to have the support they need to go on to live their lives. And I was just so impressed with that, and how, how we just D humanize abortion, and its deep ties to the Catholic Church and the Evangelical Church. But I know that that might have made some people not pick up my book at all, because of how polarizing it is. So
Seth Price 37:52
Well, I mean, whatever. Well,
Elizabeth Hagan 37:55
I have to tell you, I have a colleague who said, Okay, are you getting How you feeling? Like, what are you talking about? You're becoming that girl. And I'm like, What? Well, you keep writing about all this like weird stuff. I don't not sure you're going to be like accepted in these like, mainstream settings. And I'm like, Well,
Seth Price 38:16
no, darn.
Unknown 38:18
Oh, well, you know? Yeah,
Seth Price 38:21
yeah. I mean, it's a wide river every time I have an episode about something that I think nobody cares about. But me I get many, many emails with people like Yes, I've been thinking about that for freaking years. Yes. And thank you for this, this this resource, that resource, what else can I read? because nobody's saying it. But everybody's asking those questions. I also don't think it's as simple and you probably don't either, like you're not pro life or pro choice, because you're either anti, you're probably anti abortion, or pro choice. Maybe that's a better binary is pro life is something entirely different than abortion. Anyway,
Elizabeth Hagan 38:55
abortion, something I've been learning a lot about, and the complexity of how so much about our history with abortion in this country is really not about abortion, you know,
Seth Price 39:04
yeah, I heard and I don't remember, I listened to a lot of podcasts just because I have like a 45 minute drive to work. And so that's, I get tired of the same 23 is right over the Blue Ridge Mountains. It's a gorgeous drive. But I get tired of the same 27 songs. So I listen to a live podcast from a few years ago. And they were talking about and this has nothing to do with your books, I apologize. But it is, I think related to abortion. So they had said the way that the law was written is you can't abort after so much time after it's no longer so it's fine until it's medically viable, you know, baby, but they said realistically, they can pretty much do the math and within a few decades, realistically, there may not come a time where the baby could not be made viable with medical advances outside of the womb, even for a long amount of months and be perfectly fine. So they were like you know it It may fix itself where you don't even know that you're pregnant until you know that you're pregnant. And then it's already medically viable. So yeah, it is. Yeah. And I was like that, because they could mathematically go, yeah, we're watching exponentially as science catches up. So we might not even argue about this later. It could be something I was like, Oh, I don't know. It's just a bit.
Elizabeth Hagan 40:23
Laws are so messed up. And the other thing I wish there, stay tuned, there might be a volume too. But I would love to write about sexual abuse. You know, domestic violence is one thing, some sometimes connected to sexual abuse, but the history of sexual abuse in the church and not wanting to talk about that.
Seth Price 40:38
That's probably a book by itself. Not a child, probably. So yeah, it's really painful. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's Yeah, that's a big topic. I asked this question of everyone. And so you, you probably were expecting it because you said you let's do an episode. But what do you say when you try to explain what God is?
Elizabeth Hagan 40:58
I think my favorite word is mystery. I wouldn't have said that years ago, I would have spat it out some, some big seminary words that I learned or, or something that not the average person would understand. Or maybe I wouldn't even understand myself. But I think in my own journey of being a person of faith and living life, in all its complexity, as much as I think I know, I never really know. And as much as I think I've heard, or I'm doing the thing that I'm supposed to do, I don't really know. But I do believe in the goodness of the mystery of God and that, you know, I I know that I'm still a Christian, even after all, the deconstructing that I've done it by faith. Because I, I believe in, in death and resurrection, and then the hope that comes through that story, that the worst thing that happens to us is never the end of the story. That's a mystery. I mean, who would have thought I mean, it makes no sense. Like, how can the worst thing, you know, turn out to be the best thing and I have had dark chapters in my own life where I thought, this is the end my like, my life is over. This is. Yeah, you know, God must have forgotten my name. Yeah, but even still, some, some good things come out of it. And things that I couldn't even have seen if I hadn't just stayed in the story. You know,
Seth Price 42:24
yeah, battle preach. The worst thing that could happen is not it's not a battle. Yeah, there you go. That's a sermon right there. That's what happens. You know,
Elizabeth Hagan 42:31
once I won Easter sermon, you know, because it's always like, you got to have the big, you know, you got to be big and impressive on Easter comes. Yeah. And but it's the same story. Say, it's, this is like every pastor, you know, the Saturday night before Easter, what am I going to say? But I remember one Easter sermon, I told the story, you know, I was preaching on the the marry text, or Jesus encounters marry in the garden. And I talked about, you know, her experience of having this personal resurrection, like, she got to see Jesus, personally, and how I think that resurrection comes to all of us in a very personal way. And I talked about the time that I declared the universe, we were in the throes of like deep infertility struggles, and lots of loss and pain. And I Scott, I just don't believe in you. It's not something you you really want your pastor to say, much less, say on Easter Sunday, but this is what I was telling them. But how I had, you know, an equally powerful experience of feeling like, what I, what I felt next was God saying, you know, you can say believe a lot of things, but you can't say that I'm not here. And, and that it was this moment of like, okay, okay, okay. And, and, and it could, you know, in the coming days and weeks of community, which I call, you know, incarnation of people being present for me, showing me back to my faith and back to God, and back to wholeness and healing, because of how they showed up for me and cared for me and like, in my pain, and, and so, you know, I think we can have times of like, deep doubt. And, you know, I would love to hear it more pastors, tell me about the story. God, believe in them, because I think we all kind of face that at one point or another.
Seth Price 44:21
That's the bulk of the Bible. I think it's like 77% of the Bible is people yelling a guy being like, what are you doing? If you're even real? Come on, right. Are you doing? Yeah, I forget who it was. It's been a while, probably over a year, someone said a quote that reminded me of what you just said were to be in a faith communities is meaning that sometimes you get to say, I can't do this right now. I don't even know what I believe. And then the community come around behind you and saying, that's okay. We will carry your faith with you for a time. Oh, yeah. Carry it for you. Yeah, when you're ready. We're right here and you can have it right. Yeah, yeah.
Elizabeth Hagan 44:56
Yeah, I have friends. I'm like, Can I borrow some of your faith that this is going to be okay. Cuz I got Yeah. Sometimes you're like, well, I don't have any for you right now you go to someone else. Yeah.
Seth Price 45:08
Let me know if they have extra. Where's the extra resources? Yeah, so the book is out when? Where do people go to do all of the things that they should be doing on the places?
Elizabeth Hagan 45:20
Yeah, so easiest is to go to Elizabeth Hagen, ajga n.com slash brave church and you can find all the resources about where to buy it. I'm really excited about helping to shepherd a group of churches this fall, you know, it's a time when everyone's kind of getting back in the swing of things. So I'm excited about our churches that are signing up to be launched churches for being a break church, and that I'm willing to either be with them in person or be with them virtually as they do their brave church group or groups. And really, you know, start up movement of, of churches that are talking about these things. And, and the real crux of the book is that it's one chapter, there's so much more to say, on the topics and I'm really glad there's lots of resources in the book to keep talking and for people to explore, you know, that say it better than I ever could. But I hope that some places some places that even surprised themselves, take on this mission as fall with me. And um, sign up to be a break church. Yeah. Let's work together.
Seth Price 46:27
Yeah, yeah. That's good. That's good. Well, I appreciate both your willingness to reschedule and for your time, and I'm sure it's a detriment to your family, and your husband and everyone else that are like, fine, I'll put the kids to bed. So I appreciate that.
Elizabeth Hagan 46:39
Thank you for giving me a night off. I really appreciate it. Like five times for like extra tuck ins or water, you know,
Seth Price 46:49
my, yeah, I am at the point now where all of our kids are old enough that I'm like, just go in there and get your own water. It's fine. I'm not getting out of the bed. You can you can go do it on. The light's not on well figure it out, you know, this way too, as well. Good. Thank you again, so much. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Unknown 47:14
Because
Unknown 47:15
of the shaded hue,
Seth Price 47:25
it was a joy. Speaking with Elizabeth, a pure joy. I laughed a lot and giggled a little bit. I'm not afraid to say that I giggled, I really hope that maybe you can help foster in your faith communities or in your families. Brave conversations, because not do so. I think we risk so very much. So very much. So today's episode was produced by me in my basement. I say that sarcastically but it is more importantly, produced by the patrons of the show. Kathy Bruce, Welcome to the family there. Now, it's something you all should do. And it is one of the best ways to support the show. I get it if you can't do it, but if you can consider kicking a few bucks a month or you can get a discounted rate if you do it per year. You'll find links for that in the show note. Huge thank you again to the music for today's episode provided from remedy drive. And I've got David actually coming on the show again here in the next few weeks. And that should be out and at some point who knows. But as the season have right now be that early summer or early autumn. As I look at the numbers for the downloads on the show. I pray your blessings. And I really hope the next few months are fantastic and maybe recharging and energizing. We'll talk soon
Unknown 48:51
Ciao