Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Wendy Hudson 0:00
This idea that we are created in beauty that were created in the image of God and were created as God's children. And that is our primary identity is as children of God. And as children of God, we are created in beauty and beautiful.
Seth Price 0:24
Here we go, it is time again to do this, right? Well, maybe, maybe your phone is auto playing this. And that's okay. let that happen to. Anyway, welcome to the show. I am Seth and this is the Can I Say This At Church podcast? Very, very, very excited to have someone that was referred to me by a good friend of mine on the show today. So pastor windy Hudson is on the podcast. So I went into this conversation with the Reverend here, with very, very, very few expectations. And I absolutely loved where this conversation went. I love the conversation. I love that we circled around blessing and being born amazing, as opposed to wretched. And it is. And it is an honor to get to have these conversations, and I'm thankful. Very thankful for voices like Wendy's. Anyway, let's get started. Here we are Reverend Wendy Hudson. Welcome to the show. I'm excited that you're here. And Steve, I'm assuming you're listening even though I don't think Steve listens to most of these. But Steve put us together. So Steve, appreciate you my friend.
Wendy Hudson 1:50
But we'll we'll quiz him on that later. We'll like hide a little easter eggs. And we're in the conversation to find out if you actually listened the whole way through.
Seth Price 1:58
What does he win?
Wendy Hudson 2:00
I'll buy him a coffee.
Seth Price 2:06
But I don't think Steve drinks real coffee. I think he drinks like that kind of, you know, coffee flavored sugar water.
Wendy Hudson 2:14
I've seen him recently. And it's been like, real coffee.
Seth Price 2:17
Really? I'm excited for him. He's grown up. He's grown up so well. Anyway, enough ragging on Steve, he's not here to defend himself. So who and what are you?
Wendy Hudson 2:29
Sure? I am? Oh, my gosh, I mean, in the metaphysical way,
Unknown 2:35
are you asking that are like my particular social location, whatever way you want to go?
Wendy Hudson 2:41
So many ways we could answer that. I guess in my social location, and kind of how we got connected up. I'm the pastor at two rivers church where United Methodist faith community in Charleston, South Carolina. I'm also my other primary identities are as a mom, I've got three teenagers, which is very fun. And I'm all those other things friend, daughter.
Seth Price 3:08
That doesn't. That doesn't sound fun. So I have almost one teenager. Okay. And it's not always that fun. Are you being facetious? Or do I have something to look forward to?
Wendy Hudson 3:19
I mean, I would say it is fun 75% of the time. So that's like the vast majority, I will say there's probably 25% of the time. It's a little bit challenging, huh? Yeah, I'll take the 75%. It's pretty fun.
Seth Price 3:40
Well, maybe there's light at the end of the tunnel. So anyhow,
Wendy Hudson 3:44
anyhow, 10 year old, they're really great when they get to that end, because they're
Seth Price 3:48
self sufficient, or because you can threaten to kick them out if they just want to keep continuing to run the mouth.
Wendy Hudson 3:53
Oh, see, I've been very fortunate. My oldest does not like to run his mouth. And a way that is now my 15 year old is an expert expert at the running the mouth
Seth Price 4:07
of the episode at the running,
Wendy Hudson 4:10
if we can, if we can, like survive. 15 earn a beat great.
Seth Price 4:16
Yeah, so for those listening, so you and I decided yesterday in the 12 minute phone conversation to have a conversation this morning with about that much prep work. And so that's what we're working with here. But honestly, these are my favorite. You had said yesterday, you know, I'm not sure that this is all that exciting or whatever. But I honestly feel like they are. Because these are the most real conversations. We're not talking a text. We're not trying to sell a book. We're not. We're not trying to get you new members of the church. We're not I don't even know if that's the right word. I'm Baptists. I don't know if members is the right word for a Methodist Church, but it probably is. Is that is that what you call them? Talk
Wendy Hudson 4:53
about folks in our community.
Unknown 4:54
Okay.
Wendy Hudson 4:56
Yeah, yeah, I mean, technically membership would be a thing. But we're much more about folks in our community.
Seth Price 5:03
Yeah, one of the best books that I've read in doing this show for, like four years ago is called unarmed Empire from Sean Palmer. And he's out in Houston, I think it's Houston. But he has a thing where he's like, you know, churches, you should draw five mile radius around your church. Those are your people, whether or not they give to your church, whether or not they come to your church, like, that's your job. Stop playing games.
Wendy Hudson 5:24
What do you run a 60 mile radius?
Seth Price 5:26
Oh, my. Yeah, that's a big radius. is a big radius. Yeah,
Wendy Hudson 5:30
actually, more than that, and the entire east coast and Mexico.
Seth Price 5:34
What? What is that? What do you mean?
Wendy Hudson 5:37
We those are our folks who connect themselves to our community, our primary filter in a 60 mile radius of Charleston, and then, but we have significant folks all up and down the eastern seaboard, and in Mexico, who consider themselves part of our community.
Seth Price 5:53
Yeah. How long have you been in your vocation? Like, what is that?
Wendy Hudson 5:57
I've been doing this full time for almost 20 years. So I could trace my call to the first time I felt the search stirring or sense to be a pastor, we call that our churchy language, like a call to ministry The first time I kind of felt that as an idea or stirring, I was in the fourth grade. So I could like trace, like, trace, you know, kind of what do you want to be when you grow up all the way back to the fourth grade? And I've done a couple other things in between, but primarily have have done this, you know, my whole my whole adult life?
Seth Price 6:33
And so can you give some context of that kind of what was your faith? Maybe when you started, or when you got into ministry? And what has that arc look like to whatever you are today?
Wendy Hudson 6:46
Yeah, well, I my parents still attend the very, you know, traditional United Methodist Church, and you know, small town, South Carolina that I grew up in, they still worship and attend there. So I was one of those folks who is like, you know, like, almost literally born into the church, I'm sure I was like, taken to church when I was like two or three weeks old. So all of my childhood, you know, my most vivid, most of my most vivid childhood memories take place somewhere within that building, or in that community. The people who, like were very influential in my life, came out of that experience. So I grew up, you know, I'm for those of your podcast listeners, I'm a white woman, straight white woman, my pronouns are she and her. I'm a straight white woman, and grew up in a very middle class, upper middle class, you know, home life, and that was also my religious upbringing. You know, that's my very mainline white tradition, traditional
Seth Price 7:44
American,
Wendy Hudson 7:47
American, Christian American experience. Yeah, that was mine. Growing up, and so my religious experience and my connection with God, I count myself very fortunate that I did not have any evangelical harm. That has been my primary, my now that I'm an adult, and much, you know, at least 50% of our church, if not more are recovering evangelicals. And like, when I hear the stories of what they were taught, or what they were learned, or what they, you know, what they learned, what they were taught, what they experienced, I am just horrified. You know, and that was not my, that was not my spiritual experience growing up. I grew up in a very, you know, an understanding, very much of like, God is love. Not very much of a powerful God. But but a God of God's presence. That's where I would say, if I had to kind of characterize the God of my childhood, it would be a God of presence. As most people I'm in South Carolina, as most people, you have some foray into southern baptist land, you live in South Carolina, especially as a teenager, you literally cannot escape it. And so I had that, you know, I had a two year like, foray into southern baptism, where I was baptized again, which is a huge
Seth Price 9:07
this was your choice to like change churches or your was Yes, a
Wendy Hudson 9:13
boy may have been involved as these things happen when you're 18. But then, when I so I was when part of that the last part of that experience was when I was my first year in college and had joined the Baptist Student Union at the University of South Carolina. And I was really sensing at that time that I was really being called into full time ministry as a profession or as a vocation. Those are like the churchy words that we use, but like I wanted to be a pastor. And I was really like, feeling that this was something that I was being called to do that this is what you know, something God wanted me wanted for me, and I went to talk to my campus minister Got it. And they were like, that is really great. You can work with women and I was like, but no, I feel you know, I feel called to like preach to the whole church and they're like, well, that's really awesome. You can work with children and I was like, I do not like kids. Oh, those are your choices. And I was like, Okay, time for me to exit this and go back to the church of my childhood. So and so I've been went literally next door because the Baptist Student Union and the Methodist student unit we're next we're in buildings next door to each other. So just like left one walked out, walked in the door of the other one, and so had the opportunity to like claim Methodism, we, the founder of United Methodism, was named john Wesley, he was an Anglican priest. So we call the type of theology that he really pioneered and the expressions we call that like Wesley and theology, so I really was able to then claim that particular expression of God's kingdom for myself as an adult, yeah, kind of back in making that intentional choice.
Seth Price 11:13
I know very little about the Methodist Church. I've been to a couple of funerals in the Methodist Church and I have a good friend that is a minister I guess that's the right word I'm going to use and Methodist Church just down the street. I know her but i don't i don't know much about the church I honestly think that most people that that are not necessarily listeners of the show or maybe new listeners but most people when they think of the church they have the Jim Jefferies they have the you know a model in their head the john MacArthur of the people that are on you know the news channels so that's Dallas First Baptist Dallas the the massive one that on the Fourth of July has a celebration of our of the birth of our of our Savior, the the aka the assault rifle. Yeah, I it's it has tongue in cheek as I can possibly be. Um, yeah, searches that feel more like addicted to Empire nationalism, greed, churches that look a lot like Babylon, and maybe a Syria or Rome, although they, they, they feel like they're the the underdog in those stories Anyway, what is can you contrast kind of like, like why there's such a big difference? And then I'd also kind of like you talked about people coming to you with stories of what they were taught, like, Can you name some of those things? And kind of some of the issues with them?
Wendy Hudson 12:33
Sure. You know, I think one of the biggest differences is that they they let me a lowly woman be a preacher. In Methodism, I would say that, you know, which is really interesting when you talk about, like, folks who come to us, and like what they've been taught or like recovering evangelicals are folks who have experience significant spiritual trauma and harm. A lot of times they say, one of the things that people are looking for, is a church pastored by a woman, or they're very surprised when they see that the lead pastor of this church is a woman, I mean, we are in the deep south. So that still is an experience that is an anomaly that's more uncommon than common. But it's really interesting that just my physical presence as a female identified person is sets such an immediate tone. And also, it somehow communicates a level of safety for folks who've experienced trauma and harm, that this is not going to be a place dominated by patriarchy, misogyny, and militarism. I mean, it's interesting that just like, just having a female pastor, for a lot of the folks who've experienced a lot of harm, just just my just my face and being communicate something so radically different than what their previous search experiences have been. But Methodism as a whole, like our Wesleyan theology is really theology centered on on the concept of grace and understanding. The way that we interpret it and live it out at two rivers church is that we are created beautiful we are most wearing our shirt, this is trans is beautiful, our kind of predominant tagline is you are beautiful. And so it's, it's on our koozies. And on our in rainbow and rainbow says rainbow your beautiful is on our T shirts, it's on our koozies it's on our stickers on our car, is everywhere. So that's kind of the primary, this idea that we are created in beauty that we're creating the image of God and we're created as God's children, and that is our primary identity is as children of God. And as children of God. We are created in beauty and beautiful and the purpose of our human life is in the way that we understand and the way that we translate it and our particular congregation is that our the purpose of our life then is recovering that sense of beauty that we've been created in, and then reshaping and remoulding our life to reflect the life of beauty, Grace, love, and hope and justice that Jesus shows to us. And so the kind of the primary motivation behind Wesley, in theology, Methodist theology is this idea of grace, that there's nothing that separates us from God, that there's nothing outside of God's grace. And that we are called to live our life within it, to be transformed by it. And then as a result of that, to help transform the world, into the sense of grace, welcome, beauty, love and justice.
Seth Price 15:44
So to contrast that with what I was taught in my independent regular Baptist upbringing, which is, it's more conservative than the Southern Baptist, because we're yet Yay, we're doing it. I was taught more now you were born wretched. From that first moment of conception you were you were born to perish and but by the grace of God, which is really a bad way to work through Ephesians and Colossians. And then to prove texts that into a different meaning. But anyway, so is there no doctrine of original sin in Methodism? Or is this really more of a? No, this is what we do here. And if they're not happy with this, they can try to fire me?
Wendy Hudson 16:29
Well, I can't be fired. That's a whole nother
Seth Price 16:33
fantastic
Wendy Hudson 16:34
kit at the Methodist Methodist Church, in our historic doctrines, yes. JOHN Wesley, again, just kind of founder of our movement 300 years ago, very much adhere to the concept of original sin. And so that is very much present. And you will find your certain Methodists that has that have that as an important part of of who they are. And pastors who really lean into that, I have personally found that to beat people over the head, and to tell them that they are sinful and terrible and far away from God as their original nature is not very persuasive. Or it might it doesn't really stick. folks might hear that, and I certainly did, you know, when I had my again via my Southern Baptist, for a, I was really moved initially by the fear of what would happen to me as a sinful person who might die in a car crash on the way home. And, you know, was my sin so great. And had I not accepted Jesus enough that I would then burn in hell and perish forever. I mean, that was that was, you know, when I was 18, was pretty persuasive, when you're kind of in the midst of all of that turmoil of who you are, and what you understand and who you want to be. But that wasn't, it didn't stick. And it didn't cause me to change my life. And that's what I have found in most people that I've talked to, in my 20 years as a pastor, and especially in the last four years that we've been doing this particular work, that that understanding is not helpful, that it's harmful, that it does not cause people to have an engaging, loving, positive, life changing experience with God.
Seth Price 18:36
Yeah. So when you preach that on a Sunday, or a Tuesday, whatever, whatever the day that ends in day is that you happen to do that, because this is a COVID world. And so you can really you can you can do your church whenever you feel like it was tuning into zoom, when you say that, what is the response not from your people that attend the services with you, but from the community and from the church at large? Because that's a big difference than a lot of the churches that I hear preacher. I went to church a few weeks ago in Texas when I went back home for a week. And I was like, I loved where you were. And then it was beautiful. And you pivoted to something so awful, that he took the Beatitudes and turned it into something about power, which is really impressive. really read the Beatitudes. Well, we read the whole Beatitudes and then we stuck on the very first verse and then we ended up in Revelation and we ended up in a bunch of other places that I was like, well I'm I don't I don't understand how anyway, I was respectful. I didn't say anything and they weren't trying to pick any fights but um but yeah, so what is the response when you preach you know, justice and equality and in the in the community at large that you're in. It's
Wendy Hudson 19:52
fascinating, because I've been in Charleston for 10 years, which is a wonderful gift. Methodist preachers typically move around because The way that our our polity our structure is set up. I liken it to arranged marriages. So every year, like our leaders sit in a like for the states in a big room, and they have a list of all of the Methodist pastors, they have a list of all the churches. And then they essentially like make arranged marriages between the pastors and the churches. And so that happens for one year at a time, which really freaks out people who like hire their pastors and pastors stay for a lifetime. And so usually we stay in a place for anywhere for five years, this kind of has been typical. And so it's unusual that I have been in one city for 10 years. You know, the great gift of that, though, is that I've been in one city for 10 years. So I have a lot of relationships, context connections, my kids going to school to places that I shop to groups that I'm in, I know a ton of people. And not a lot of is, of course, some of these people come to church. But some of those people will never set foot into our church space. Some of those people consider me to be their pastor, even though they've never ever attended one of our formal worship services. Some of those folks will, you know, consider us to be our I get this a lot. If I ever were to go to a church, I would go to yours. And so it has been a very surprising message. This one of beauty. You know, like, walk it we were talking before we started recording about like t shirts, and the T shirt that I'm wearing right now, you know, says trans is beautiful, and we had this whole tagline, you are beautiful, and it's everywhere. Probably my favorite story is when we did pride a couple of years ago, our Charlson pride we had we gave we had the we had, you know, our T shirts, and we had stickers and we have 1000, we still have some 1000 of these koozies that say you are beautiful. And on the day of pride, we attached a rainbow flag to a little card, and twosies and we gave them out. And later on that week, I went into Starbucks, and I was wearing my your beautiful t shirt. And the person who was checking me out was like, Oh my gosh, were you at pri and I was like, Yeah, I was at pri and you're like, I love that shirt. And I was and she's like, Wait, did you have a koozie? I was like, Yeah, she's like, I have that koozie I was like, that's so awesome. And then somebody who was next to her was like, Oh my gosh, really have a koozie I want to wait, but I won't want and I was like, hang on and I ran to my car. opened up my trunk, Barstow had a box of the flags, and the koozies and the stickers, and I brought them into the store. And I gave out a dozen, the koozies and the flags and the little cards like to both folks, baristas who were working into just people who were in the Starbucks and you saw them ever, like, hey, I want one of those. To me, that's one of my favorite stories about this message is that you are beautiful, especially folks, LGBTQ community that, you know, is one of our kind of primary constituencies in our congregation in our community. They have, especially LGBTQ folks, queer folks have spent their entire lives swimming and the cultural message that that you are broken, that there's something wrong with you that this is not right, that you are that people have been told you are ugly, not physical beauty, but just you know, the attribute of being who you are. And this and this message and idea that you are beautiful that because I said because God said, because God made you exactly like that. And God made you in the image of beauty. folks can can hardly believe it.
Seth Price 23:53
Yeah, no, I agree. The most recent thing I've gotten used to saying is just love as a noun, but that is it's pointed at humans. Not necessarily God. Yeah, yeah, it's it's one of my favorite one of my favorite things. been enough weeks. You know what that sound means? 1530 seconds tops. I'm going to be back in just a second. So theologically speaking for you as a person, what did you struggle the most with as you kind of went through training and whatnot, to found a church like two rivers that is a different form of church because most churches have a massive amount of legacy. And it handicaps what they're allowed to do, or, you know, pastors are told, you can officiate a same sex wedding, you can talk about racism, you can talk about white supremacy, you can talk about this But I'm gonna need you to tone it back. If you want me to continue to pay you to be a minister here, like I'm gonna need you to dial it way back. So what, what was the biggest thing for you where you were like, oh man that you struggled with getting into where you're at now.
Wendy Hudson 25:14
I mean, you've hit the nail on the head, one of the great gifts of the year, we started our church, we just celebrated our third birthday in March. So we are we started the whole process about four years ago. And the great gift in that, and we always say is that the only bad habits that we have, we have so much freedom, so much flexibility. One of our things we say all the time is we can do whatever we want. Like, whenever we get stuck on something, we're like, what should we do, we're like, okay, we can do whatever we want. And it's there's a lot of freedom. And then also, whenever we hit a barrier, or an obstacle, we say, this is God's invitation to creativity. So I've been at them, you know, anytime we get pushback, or bump up against something like this is God's invitation to creativity, and we will rejoice. So a way of kind of flipping all that around. And also, the great gift is that the only bad habits we have are the habits that we have started ourselves, and we know what they are. And there's there is a there is a ton of freedom. And in starting something new, probably the most difficult habit that I had to overcome was language. Because I grew up in a mainline church. I have been a Christian from the moment of my conception, you know, essentially I was raised in a very loving Christian household. I never had a crisis of faith as such. I have some I've had my moments of like doubt and wondering but never, but those have always been springboard moments and never had like cratering moment of that. I was seminary trained. I spent 14 years in established churches. So my all of my language was so churchy. So churchy. So churchy. That was you. That's all I've done pretty much as an adult. And very quickly realized when we're starting to rivers, that the folks that we wanted to connect with were people who did not go to church. They were people who had either been harmed by church who had said, I'm never setting foot back in church, again, who had never been to church as an adult, who never had any connection to God that they wanted to pursue. We believe that God's always been connected to people. We don't choose that God's primary way of being his connection with us. We choose whether we interact with that or not. But the biggest thing was having to do church to find my language. And so the first year that we worship together to folks and I, we would sit after every after every single worship service, everything that we wrote everything that we spoke, and we would evaluate every single word that we said, every single transition, every single illustration, every single image every I mean, and say, okay, don't say this, say this. Instead, you need to define this. Not that you need to end it, I had to learn a whole new vocabulary. And it's wonderful. And it was hard work. But it's how, if there are any pastor, people listening out there, really listen to what you say, the best thing you can do is find somebody who is not a Christian, and not a church, and let them listen to what you say. And then have them give you honest feedback about it. And 90% of time, they'll be like, I really had no idea what you're talking about.
Seth Price 28:32
This isn't a fair question. But since you're, you know, I love a minute center a minister, I figured why not? So what is the church's responsibility with what is currently happening with the refugees that we've created over two decades in Afghanistan? And I say we've created very intentionally for the same reason that Where's refugees from? The southern portions of North American in the northern regions of the South American continent? Because, you know, we got to make money down there. And we're America's to deal with it. Yeah, but that's a different topic, but very similar. What is the church's role and responsibility in the world that we currently sit in as it relates to that?
Wendy Hudson 29:10
I mean, we, we are a people as Jesus followers, we are people who have, you know, hitched our wagon to a political refugee. I mean, so it's like we that that is your Jesus and his parents, you know, fled to Egypt, fleeing for their life from a despotic ruler, who is seeking out to kill them. I mean, they're like they lived in Egypt as a refugee, until they returned until they returned back. So we, the plight of refugees is also our plight, and the connection that we have to folks who are fleeing for safety is the story of the person who we claim to follow in as the Savior of the world. And so in them, we very much see Jesus, because their story is the story of Jesus. And so I think we both have a level of responsibility for creating safety and welcome and asylum and shelter. You know, as folks arrive here, that's very, very important. And then also, I think we can't advocate as well, we can't abdicate our responsibility to speak loudly and clearly on behalf of justice. And creating responsibilities and possibilities for more folks to come for more folks to be allowed in. One of our folks has just recently traveled to the southern US border, the, in Texas, New Mexico, US border, to spend time in some of the refugee and asylum seeking communities there. And it's a story that's not talked about, I think, outside of Texas border communities, or, you know, there's like United States, southern border communities. I mean, I consider myself pretty dialed in to the state of the world, and the things that she shared her experiences, but she saw, I had no I, you know, I just had no idea. And it broke my heart. And the hard thing is, I can only, I can only carry too closely. So many heartbreaking things. Because then I won't be able to get up off the floor. And I think that's a tough part about being a follower of Jesus in the world today is we see Jesus to me the most clearly in those who are suffering. And to be so closely tied we have there's the whole world of suffering. We know we are suffering, and bearing the weight of that and trying to discern Where do I as an individual, where do we as a community? Where do we as a church, like place? Our efforts and energy with those who are suffering? is really hard?
Seth Price 32:15
Yeah, I had an argument with someone the other day that I don't know on the internet, because that's what the world is
Wendy Hudson 32:21
about, to argue in person anymore?
Seth Price 32:24
Well, I don't I don't actually argue with people in person, I really only argue with them on the internet, mostly because I think I have time to choose my words. And then and then, but in person, I don't have that time. And there's no empathy on the internet. You know what I mean? It's just a different. I don't know, I really should probably just delete all the social media, all of it, but I won't, because that's the world that we live in, and can be used for good. Yeah, but it's still, what's the word? It takes a lot of work to do so because you just can't read the comments. He just got to put what you want to put it there and then leave? Definitely. Yeah, and I don't read the comments for the show, which is probably for the best, but that's okay. So now we got an argument about, you know, rescuing refugees, and they were saying, you know, we should only be rescuing the Christians that are there because that's, I was like, ridiculous. You're ridiculous.
Wendy Hudson 33:12
Do you know that Jesus wasn't a Christian? Right, right.
Seth Price 33:16
Yeah. Do you also know that the Syriac he, I'm sure he doesn't, but without Syriac Muslims, like there would be no Christianity today. Because they sheltered and house them, and vice versa. Like, there's a massive shared brotherhood there of love. And somehow we forgot that that exists. But for those listening, you should read the work event sponsor, if you want to dig into that and fall down that rabbit hole and, and learn something new. I've heard it said by a couple ministers that being a pastor in today's church is like managing long term hospice care. Do you agree with that, and hospice care for like the entity of the church? And so as you know, new reports roll in church memberships roll in and things seem to never really systematically smell my gosh, systemically, systematically. I don't know which word will edit the right one and change. Do you feel as though that's accurate in your experience?
Wendy Hudson 34:17
I mean, I'm, you know, now unfortunate is that I'm I'm on the midwife and
Seth Price 34:22
you're birthing something new. Exactly, exactly.
Wendy Hudson 34:25
Which there is, I do, I have always said like for my whole ministry, and for the last 20 years, and even more so now. We can't say post COVID in this whatever, I don't know if there will ever be a post, but and whatever portion of COVID that you know, the world exists and this is the best time to be a follower of Jesus. This is the best time to be, in my in my opinion to be a pastor. Because there are so many The folks who are not connected to Jesus, and I think is wonderful. Most of our most of my colleagues and peers, unfortunately, live and serve and work in those hospice connections, but almost the worst kind, where people don't realize that they're dying. And so instead of embracing the end of life, and all the possibilities that come with that, like I had a, I had a guy one of my last churches who had a single his whole life had had tuberculosis when he was in his 20s. I like spent nine months in his tuberculosis sanatorium, I like like back in the day, oh, man, I'm single his whole life. Never thought he would live past 50. And here, he was, like 70 and who is diagnosed with a very aggressive type of cancer. So he was like, I've lived way longer than I ever thought I was. And they were like, We can like these are the treatments, surgery, radiation, chemotherapy, you won't be able to eat that. And he was like, Are you kidding? He's like, no, like Oregon hospice. He's like, I never thought I'd lived this long. Bring on hospice, do the thing. Buddy. I have never seen somebody in bridge he used every single bit of the hospice care that was offered to him. He had the music therapists come he had the health care workers come, he had nurses come, he had volunteers calm, he had the chaplain, I mean, like, every day, and he lived for six months, his quality of life, those last six months, were honestly far better than they were in the last 20 years of his life. He was like, I'm gonna you're gonna give me hospice, fantastic. I mean, he was both feet in. And I've never seen someone with a more joyful end of life is so full of meaning and care and hope and people surrounding him. And people like living out the folks hospice living out their gifts in his life, and he was able to facilitate that in this really incredible way. And so at his funeral, like the hot the music therapist, or the music hospice worker came and sang the song that they had written together, I mean, he was just wonderful. Because he knew that death was part of life, and that death was not an end. for him. He was very faithful follower of Jesus. For him, death was not an end, it was not something to be feared. Instead, it was just a transition point to something incredible. We, as the institutional church, are not faithful and our understanding of death, I can always fixed in the eye for the United Methodist denomination. I see this all the time. We live in nothing but fear and panic and anxiety, and oh my god, we're gonna die. And I'm like, Are you kidding? Death is fantastic. Because without death, you don't get new life. You don't get I mean, we are a resurrection people. We believe that the best comes after death. So why are we so afraid of it? You know, I think if we as a denominational entity, as a church in America could live the way that Mr. Jackie lived, that we could embrace the end of our life, we could see that they're all the gifts in it, and we could prepare for what comes next. Imagine what our churches would be like, if we were like, we're gonna give up all of ourselves. For the sake of people who've never heard of Jesus, we've never connected with Jesus, and we're gonna give all of our resources, all of our people resources, all of our past, you know, we're gonna release our pastors to go spend all their life with people who are on the birthing end, we're going to take care of each other because we know how to do that. And we're going to set ourselves up for life after death.
Seth Price 38:48
So yeah, no, we don't faithful, is not faithful, I want to I want to lean into that midwife metaphor because I like it. And then the first thought that I had is if if ministers and reverence or whatever pastors are acting in the role of the midwife, who should be acting in the role of doula because from what I understand that that midwife is like, right up until we go, and then I've got to go to the next birth, like I'm, I'm, I'm qualified to do this. And then the doula kind of sticks with you emotionally postpartum and helps to emotionally prepare the family and yourself and so who should be acting in that role?
Wendy Hudson 39:26
I mean, I think that is the role of the community. The role of the community is to midwife and it's to midwife and doula each other and more out into the world. And so one thing that we really adopted at two rivers is you know, is we have a really flat structure, you know, a really flat leadership structure. I'm the lead pastor, but, but we function very flat. We don't function hierarchically at all and We believe that every person in our community has gifts that are necessary, needed valid and equal for the building of the community. And so, you know, one person's gift is not my gift, as you know, the pastor, the kind of the the leader, the one who can, like keeps us going, setting a direction, I am only able to do that though, because everybody else is sharing their gifts, listening to other people, helping teach children to read of developing spiritual formation in our children of showing up on a Sunday, setting up of chairs back when we did that thing of popping on to Facebook and engaging the comments, you know, of giving their money of saying I had this relationship that I'd like to nurture, like Steven here, Stephens gift of introducing the two of us like that's it, you know? So all of those gifts are equally valid. One is not higher, or more important than the other. And in that way, we're all midwifing. And we're all serving as a doula at the same time.
Seth Price 41:06
No, I like that. So two questions left, and then I'm gonna run to work, I'm gonna let you probably get back to work. What do you feel like churches need to be saying at church just to be passive aggressive with the, with the name of the show? Not necessarily the ministers of the church, but what should people feel enabled? And maybe you think necessary needs to be discussed in the coming years? And if not, it was it's going to be detrimental to the to the church as a whole big c church,
Wendy Hudson 41:33
I will adjust American Christianity because that's a context and what I know. And so I would say, anti racism and white supremacy, we, especially those of us who are white and white churches, that has to be that has to be has to be up there. LGBTQ inclusion, full inclusion, you know, for me, obviously, that's part of who we are, has to be there. And then also anti imperialism and anti colonialism. And you we we talk a lot about intersectionality you know, we live at intersections, you know, well one of our things also is like pride is always intersectional and it's all it's all of that you can't you can't split out those things because people show up in the space in all of their identities. We don't make people show up only as one identity people show up all their identities. And so as the American church if we are going to have any I hate to use a relevancy but I'm going to use it if we're gonna have any relevancy to the folks who live in the United States these days. We have to talk about those things because that is people's lived experience and it is foolish of us to pretend like it doesn't exist
Seth Price 42:43
so for you as a person when you try to wrap words around what God is Oh, what is that?
Wendy Hudson 42:52
Um when I use the centering, practice the centering prayer which is usually pick like one word that you then like repeat or focus on or create and I mean it sounds I even hate to say it It sounds so hokey to say to say love, but not most but not like so far deeper then like nothing Hallmark related, but it's like it's the love that a parent has for a child that a lover has for another lover in that first blush deepness You know, when you're first having that warm relationship love it that defies definition and categorization and description even. I'd say that
Seth Price 43:53
love it, love it. Those that's my favorite question of every single one of these I started like two years ago. It is it is my favorite question. I don't know why. I often get more out of the answers of those. Yes, this the entire episode. Normally we you know, we have a book that we're directing people to so but we don't have any of that. And so when people listen to this, and at the end, they're like, Well, I know I need to I need to say stuff about this I need to do something or I feel I feel led to try to do X, Y or Z where should they go to try to begin to plug into things that you feel like matter.
Wendy Hudson 44:29
Yeah, you can connect with me. I'm Rev. Wendy Hudson on all social media. So follow me connect with me check in with me there. And then we are also to river ch s so t who are IVR sdhs on all social media and that's also our website to oversee just that orgy. Come and find us and you too can have your own You are beautiful. Jesus is a feminist t shirt. You can shop our store.
Seth Price 45:01
How to work or fanny pack. Or Pfizer. Fanny pack.
Wendy Hudson 45:05
We got it all. Our creative director is super great. Oh, fanny
Seth Price 45:09
pack. So my wife wore a fanny pack. I feel like they did something for my wife's a pediatric nurse and they did something for the kids. And she had to have a fanny pack in it is the 80s la gear. Best oh my gosh, she put it on. I was like, I don't I get why you're doing it. But I don't. I don't want to know you today. I don't, I can't do the fanny pack leave the house separately. And now my daughter has a fanny pack. And I'm just I'm not happy about any of it. I don't know. I don't know about that. Steve, don't get any ideas. Anyway. Wendy, thank you so much for coming on and for your time this morning.
Unknown 45:49
Fantastic. Thank
Wendy Hudson 45:50
you so much.
Seth Price 45:51
You're welcome. Now, I haven't added it up. But there are hundreds of 1000s, if not millions of podcasts on the internet. And I am humbled that you continue to download this one. This is your first time here. Please know that there are transcripts of these shows. Not always in real time, but I do my best. And if you go back in the logs, you can find transcripts for pretty much any episode that you'd like the show is recorded and edited by me, but it is produced by the patron supporters of the show. That is one of the best if not the best way that you can support the show. If you get anything at all out of these episodes, if you think on them, or if you you know you're out and about and you tell your friends about it or Hey, Mom, Dad, brother, sister, friend, boss, Pastor, here's what I heard, what are your thoughts on that? If this is helping you in any way, and it is helping me consider supporting the show in that manner. It is extremely inexpensive. But collectively, it is so very much helpful. I am thankful that our world has voices like Julie's in it, and countless others. They're a beacon of hope and light. Now for you, I pray that you are blessed and you know that you're cherished and beloved. We'll talk soon