Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Megan Westra 0:00
I think I say something in the book about the church mothers who live in my neighborhood who will be like, “I'll hold your faith for you”. This idea that like, “Well, of course, you're not gonna believe this every day of your life. Nobody does. Like, of course, you're not gonna be able to hold on to this all the time. Nobody does.” That's why we have each other. That's why we're a body. That's why like this, this community matters because I'll hold your face for you when you can't hold on to. I will believe for you when you can't believe right? Like, I'll carry my friend up on the roof and dig through the roof and lower them to Jesus, right? Like those kind of ideas of Of course, we can't hold on to it ourselves. And so I think we've done a really big disservice to salvation and conversations about it. When we have turned it into this like hyper personal thing.
Seth Price 1:07
Hey there everybody, how are you doing? I hope you're well. I am stressed school starts back on Tuesday. So as of release of this episode that's in like 48 hours and that's crazy because I don't know what that's gonna look like. I hope that your fall is beginning less stressful than mine. Megan Westra came on the show, someone on Twitter connected the two of us and you'll hear us joking and bantering about a bit on the show (at how) I'm not good at scheduling and that's no secret and this and the other and four months later, we finally made it happen. But she came on (the show) on the launch day of her show on what she called the “book birthday”. And I was so thankful that she did.
And so we cover a lot of ground. I laugh a lot, and those are always my favorite. However before we hit play I wanted to thank the two newest people that have joined the community over at Patreon. So thank you to Steve and thank you, Laura. If you haven't done so consider doing so or rating reviewing the show the rest of the things that we all ask you to do. And it's for a reason it really does matter. But I've said it before, and I mean it every time the show is not a possibility without the patrons and I am thankful and I know the many, many people that listen to this show are thankful for each and every single one of you. Here we go. Let's roll the tape with Megan Westra.
Seth Price 3:15
Megan, welcome to the Can I Say This At Church podcast. I'm excited that you're here. And I'm also thankful. And I wanted to wait to say this on the record. I am the worst at Twitter, email, social media. And thank you… I was very slow to respond to you many, many, many times. And I have a lot of excuses for those. None of them are really appropriate. But thanks for being here tonight.
Megan Westra 3:37
(Laughs)
Yeah, thanks for having me. And, you know, when you did finally respond to me, then I was moving and so then I didn't respond to you either. And so I feel like we're even.
Seth Price 3:47
Well, I was not moving. What is that like in the middle of a pandemic moving from house A to house B?
Megan Westra 3:56
Yeah, so we were only moving like 12 blocks. We went from a duplex that we were kind of renting into a home that we own now. So we were able to move a lot of our boxes ourselves over the course of like two weeks. Which is a different kind of awful, because then you just don't know where any of your stuff is. And like is this at the new house or the old house? And you have like two yards to mow and you have like…
Seth Price 4:27
It's good exercise.
Megan Westra 4:29
Oh my gosh, it's a terrible idea. Um, but it meant that we could do just, you know, a few people all masked up on Saturday to move the furniture in a pretty short window of time. So, you know, I guess it's, it's okay. I wouldn't recommend it. Like if you don't have to move during a pandemic, then maybe don't
Seth Price 4:51
(laughs) just stay the course.
Megan Westra 4:52
Maybe maybe just wait.
Seth Price 4:55
I just realized there that I put your notes…so the downside of reading The electronic copies is I don't have my paper to write in and highlight in. So I have your notes over on the left here. It is your books birthday. I think it's the first time I've ever used that in a sentence before today, and I think I stole it from you or maybe somebody that you retweeted. But I liked it. I was like, you know what? Most people could be doing other things on their book birthday, and you're here.
Megan Westra 5:24
I'm talking to you.
Seth Price 5:25
Yeah, I'm genuinely, really, enjoyed your book. And, again, thanks for being here. So, just a little bit to know about me, I don't ever ask any of the questions that the publishers send, I find them ridiculous. Um, so I like…(laughter from Megan), those are the questions for people that don't read the books. So I tend to ask different questions. And so just roll with me sarcasm is my love language. And so we'll go there.
Megan Westra 5:49
So great.
Seth Price 5:51
I guess I once was asked to preach in the church service. I was like, this is gonna go horribly because (just) no, I never did. I Did teaching the youth once and it still was horrible. The amount of sarcasm for sixth and seventh graders didn't it didn't it didn't level up. So the first question is legitimately that so the title of your book is Born Again. Again, correct?
Megan Westra 6:14
Born Again and Again
Seth Price 6:16
Dang it, see! There's an “and” there. This is ridiculous. I don't believe this. I have to look..,I don't believe it. Again and again, You're ridiculous. Yeah, it is. That's true. You know what the title is? That is my first question. So I listened to you on one of the podcasts and and and reading all of this. I have to feel like we're very similar in age and so you don't have to answer your age, but I'm 38 and some change. So I don't know what your age is. But I feel like based on the stories you tell…
Megan Westra 6:42
I’m so much younger than you…
Seth Price 6:44
Are, you really‽
Megan Westra 6:46
No! I’m 30 (said through laughter) Sorry, I’ll stop screwing with you. I’m almost 33. So much, much younger!
Seth Price 6:58
Well, either way. So I grew up I got saved 97 times and I went to Liberty and that Spiritual Emphasis week we’re doing it like we're doing this! We're not ending convocsation until…
Megan Westra 7:12
Oh you went to Liberty?
Seth Price 7:13
Yeah, I didn't know any better at the time. (Megan laughs) I'm thankful for that I went there and it impacted my life greatly but..
Megan Westra 7:23
Yeah.
Seth Price 7:24
I've never displayed my it's actually over there rolled up my diploma. I would have never displayed it…degree diploma. I don't know what the word is. That's how good the education was. Yeah, degree or diploma. So, yeah, why does that give you pause like you shot up when I said I went to Liberty?
Megan Westra 7:39
Yeah. So I grew up in Virginia, so I know of liberty. I went to College for a Weekend. I almost went there. There were, you know, some concerns in my homeschool group about like, is Liberty conservative enough or not?
Seth Price 7:56
See, for me, the concerns were Liberty is not conservative. Like, Liberty was more liberal than Yeah, yeah. We're in Virginia. I live right outside of Charlottesville now.
Megan Westra 8:07
Oh, word. I grew up right on the West Virginia / Virginia border. So like Blacksburg would be the southwest Virginia. Yeah, yeah. Southwest. Yeah. So yeah, right there. Yeah. That points on the West Virginia side at points on the Virginia side. Depends on what age of my life we're talking about.
Seth Price 8:24
Yeah, I can be in West Virginia in an hour. Just driving straight west going up to like the Cass railroads. I don't know if you've ever been up there or not. Yeah, I didn't know the first time I went I wore a nice shirt and I got cinders all over it covered in ash and anyway, traumatized so but what is the proper number of times to be born again, and again and again?
Megan Westra 8:49
Oh…I mean, when I was a kid, and like growing up, it was like, until you feel that like peace that everybody is describing and whenever the preacher who is preaching and like, both actively trying to make you feel really guilty about your life and all the sins you never committed because you weren't allowed to. But also like, apparently, there's this like sense of joy and peace and freedom and lightness. And so I never got that. And so I got saved many, many, many, many times. I mean, if we're going to follow the thread of my book, though, I would say you never arrive instead of again and again and again. It's just like, you just never stop becoming saved.
Seth Price 9:31
Yeah. I like that. We would call that theosis to use a fancy word, or I would anyway, I'm gonna get the words that dime or nickel size words, that's a quarter size word. So I'll scale it back. You can use whatever word you want.
Megan Westra 9:45
It's alright. I went to seminary I've got my diploma back there.
Seth Price 9:51
It's displayed.
Megan Westra 9:52
It is displayed but that's only because it came in the mail last week, so I'm still really excited about it!
Seth Price 9:54
Oh, you just finished?
Megan Westra 9:59
Yeah, I finished in June.
Seth Price 10:01
I realized upon you saying that that I skipped the first question I usually ask, (Megan laughs) which is what makes Megan, Megan like, if you were to, you know, in a nutshell, like, what are the big impactful things that are like yeah, here's why I am what I am.
Megan Westra 10:11
Yeah, no, I think that I have had a whole lot of people who have kind of loved me to life, right? That's a Cornell West quote is, you know, I am who I am because somebody loved me. And so I can look back through so many different seasons of my life, so many different instances and communities of people who loved me loved me well.
You know, certainly like, in the present day, my spouse and my daughter are hugely significant in that regard. And then just finishing seminary, some dear professors and friends. So yeah, a lot of relationships. The big theme in the book is like connection over consumption, so I’m real big on relationships, and lots of coffee. And a large amount of vegan food if I can find it. I'm a vegetarian but a really good vegan restaurant, then you know, I'll go hardcore. And just be like, you know what don't give me any butter either. (Seth laughs)
So, yeah, I think that's kind of what makes me tick-lots of books. I read alot when we moved into our new house. Within 24 hours, I had unpacked all of my books. I had not unpacked 80% of the kitchen, and didn't know where any of my clothes were. But the books were done because of priorities.
Seth Price 11:31
So my wife hates the amount of books that I have. Which is also why I'm thankful that people send digital copies of books or I can buy digital copies because I can hide. I can hide my addiction. (Megan laughs) For a while I was getting a book like every day and she's like, this is ridiculous. You have to give them away. And it was like she asked for my children, which are also her children. Is your spouse the same way or is he like no read the books. I want to read the books too, because it's an argument for us. I really want a bookshelf.
Megan Westra 12:05
So he was a pastor's kid. So he kinda gets it. I think there are times, certainly when I was writing my book, when I would be like, I really need to do more research and he was like, I think if you're writing the key operative, there is you write. And I was like, “No, I really think I need to get another book to research for my book”. He's pretty understanding. But there are moments where it's like, really, did you need another book? I did! It was actually a physical compulsion. I started shaking and I needed it!
Seth Price 12:41
Yeah, what took over the top was when I got Robert Alter’s Hebrew Bible. Oh, yeah. If you don't have it every so often, it's on sale. She's like, you already have like seven copies of the Bible. I was like, Yeah, but this one read this with me and she's like your ridiculous there's no reason you need all this. It's like, “but I do”.
Megan Westra 12:59
This is a better copy of the Bible for this specific purpose.
Seth Price 13:02
It's like four copies because of all the stuff anyway, doesn't matter. So you talk quite a bit about salvation at the beginning of your book. And I think specifically, in light of the way that many Americans do church, that word salvation is bandied about as like the carrot, the reward for proper behavior. So I'm hoping for people listening, you could just kind of when you say salvation, like, here's what you're actually talking about, and maybe contrast that versus the way it's normally bandied about.
Megan Westra 13:34
Yeah.
So in the book, I talk about salvation in terms of conformity to Christ, like that's the bigger thread that pulls through in the later chapters. This idea of like unlearning, and returning, right. Like how do we unlearn the stories and the patterns that we've all picked up along the way in our life, you know, you can think of yourself like, like a piece of velcro or something right. Or like if you go for a walk in the woods And you get all those like little stickers, you know, caught in your socks and you know, we just pick things up along the way. And some of them are intentionally taught to us. Some of them we just kind of are constantly brushing past them. Things like some of the bigger systems they call out in the book like sexism and misogyny, racism, white supremacy, things like that. Where it's just like, nobody intentionally sat me down and said, “Okay, here's why we think white people are better”.
Nobody ever did that. But I was just constantly brushing up against it. It just like starts to stick to you like those little briars. And so this idea then of like, “Okay, if the goal of my life is to be conformed to Christ”, which is like, real Biblical, because I'm a Bible nerd at the end of the day. If the goal is to be "conformed to Christ, then those little briars don't fit they aren't part of that. And so I have some unlearning to do and some returning to do but in that conformity to Christ, I am also getting my life back. Right.
Like I'm also becoming more of what it means to be human, essentially. Because I'm not basing my identity on these little like briar bushes that are stuck to my socks. That would be ridiculous if we were coming in from a hike up by the railroad in West Virginia, and you're all covered in soot. And, and we had all these briars stuck to our socks, and you're just like, you know, what, I just identify with these briars. And this is now the basis of my personality! I would be like, Seth, that is ridiculous. That is the most absurd thing I've ever heard.
But we have done that with different systems of power with different cultural constructs and things like that. And then you bring it into the church and people will say, well just preach the gospel and leave justice out of it. Leave race out of it, gender out of it, all of that stuff. So I think when we create salvation in this idea of like, it's a purely spiritual thing. It's about my soul when I die, going up to live the most boring afterlife ever floating around on a cloud. Which does not sound like an enjoyable experience in the first place, you know, then you can ignore the briars. You can ignore the little things that have stuck to that belief along the way. Well, because I'm ditching my body and nothing else really matters. And the systems of this world don't matter and the creation doesn't matter, because the only thing that matters is my soul.
And so I really have tried to push against that and say no, the here and now matters. Your body matters, the creation matters. Your neighbor's body matters, the part of creation that your neighbor is living in matters. And so how do we bring all of that into conformity with Christ? And what are the things that we have to unlearn so that we can return to who really are.
Seth Price 17:01
What did you study in seminary? Like, what's the finality, what is the degree? I don't know what the word is the degree?
Megan Westra 17:08
Yeah. So I have a Masters of Divinity, which is the most like absurd sounding degree ever, because then it's just like I mastered God.
Seth Price 17:17
Absolutely, nailed it.
Megan Westra 17:19
That's what my husband likes to say like when my diploma came, he's like, “Oh, look, it's your certificate for mastering God”. And I was like, “please never say that again”.
Seth Price 17:30
I would get a coffee mug and send it to my wife.
Megan Westra 17:34
Masters of Divinity and then my emphasis was in community development.
Seth Price 17:40
Yeah, the community development makes a lot of sense. Actually, with the stuff in the book. I'm probably gonna bounce around a lot because we reference that I'm not a fan of the other questions? Can I quote your book to you?
Megan Westra 17:53
Yeah, that’s fine just don't leave out any words like you did in the title of my book and you the end there.
Seth Price 17:56
(laughs) Hey, listen, I read this on this. (holds up phone) I read it on my phone.
Megan Westra 18:02
That's impressive.
Seth Price 18:03
It took a minute. But when you can only see two paragraphs at a time.
Megan Westra 18:08
The struggle is real. All right, if you leave out any words, I'll forgive you.
Seth Price 18:12
It's okay. Tell you what people can buy the book. And they can see if I leave out words because I don't know the page numbers again, because it's digital. So there's a part in here though, and you talked about it a bit about, you know, the church, its addiction to power, and how it identifies like, if we're gonna call power, another one of those briars, which arguably all of those briars are a form of flexed unearned power that's been given by a government. That's a different topic. But you haven't here
for the first three quarters of Western church history. And more than that outside the western context, salvation was not a private matter worked out in a person's heart, rather it was conceived of as a communal state.
I don't think that we talked about salvation that way. So can you rip apart communal state a bit, because you talked about it a minute ago about your my personal salvation, but I don't understand communal state?
Megan Westra 19:01
Communal state. So, in the early church, I mean, like, like the quote you just read. So outside and outside of the West, you know, for even longer. This idea of you would choose on your own terms in your own life. This is the time when I have decided to walk down this aisle and profess that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and I am going to hold that belief all on my own. And the pastor or priest or whoever is going to, you know, kind of be like, “Alright, there you go. And now you're in charge of making sure that you stay faithful to this walk of faith!” was just not a thing. And there are references in scriptures where, you know, talks about like, and the whole household was baptized, right. You know, some of that is like Greco-Roman household codes, but some of that is also this idea that like this is bigger than an individual person. And belief systems bind us as more than just individuals.
So in the ancient world, your religious affiliation would affect what kind of commerce you could engage in and things like that. And so, you know, it wasn't just a matter of like, “Well, do you feel like you belong to this community? Do you feel like you believe this”? Like, does this fit with your personal needs? It was like “No, like, What community are you a part of what community are you responsible to what community hold you accountable”?
And so, this still exists in you know, in different ways in current church context. I have seen it most frequently in like black church contexts. And you know, people that I know who attend historically black churches and congregations who will talk about and I think I say something in the book about like the the church mothers who live in my neighborhood who will be like, I'll hold your faith for you. This idea that like, “Well, of course, you're not gonna believe this everyday of your life, like nobody does. Like, of course, you're not gonna be able to hold on to this all the time. Nobody does. That's why we have each other. That's why we're a body”. That's why like this community matters because I'll hold your faith for you when you can't hold on to, I will believe for you when you can't believe right. I'll carry my friend up on the roof and dig through the roof and lower them to Jesus, right? Like those kind of ideas of of course, we can't hold on to it ourselves.
And so I think we've done a really big disservice to salvation in conversations about it when we have turned it into this like hyper personal thing. Not only because then it often turns into this like overly spiritual thing where nothing in this life matters. But I think also then you can look at the people who will go through seasons of doubt, who go through seasons of questioning, and will walk away from the faith entirely. Which you know, not knocking that I know that that's, you know, that's the path that some people walk and it's a very good path for them. But I think that we have said that no, you have to believe it. And you have to believe it this way. And it has to be that all the time and you can't question it. And you can't doubt and you can't push against it. And you can't be like, eh, today, I'm not really feeling it. Because then well, that's no good. And, well, you're probably backsliding or living in sin or whatever, when that's just a completely unreasonable expectation to put on people. That's not faith then at that point. Faith and certainty are not good bad fellows. There's not a whole lot of certainty and a life of faith.
Seth Price 22:43
At the beginning there when you were describing salvation. I don't know why. But for me, it sounded a lot like a wedding. You walk down the aisle, pastors up there, you're betrothed now go off on your own.
Megan Westra 22:55
Also horrible way to hold marriage. For the record. You're just like, hey, kids go work out that shared life together and blending of your two family systems and all your expectations you are bringing into that.
Seth Price 23:11
…you'll figure it out.
Megan Westra 23:12
You’ll figure it out. Don't ask anyone for help. That's gonna work really well.
Seth Price 23:16
Hunny, if you're listening, we're doing it great. You and I are doing a great as she as she sleeps above me.
The bulk of the middle of your book is the parts that I kept coming back to you call it what do you call it? Hold on…unlearning and relearning. Like, there's a whole section there. And you just bounce back and forth between and there were so many topics in there that I was surprised at how much ground you covered. You went through race, patriarchy, sexism, power, capitalism, prosperity gospel, and missing 86 other topics. So I'm curious though, which one of those was the hardest for you to personally tackle? Not necessarily write about but like yeah this one. This one cost five more books and 27 more researches.
Megan Westra 23:59
The money chapter It was really difficult for me because I just I hate money. I hate thinking about money. I hate talking about money. I'm really annoyed that Jesus talked about it as much as he did, because if he didn't, then I could just ignore it. But there's a whole lot of money in the Bible. And so I feel like we have to deal with that. And so I would be very content, if we just went totally back to like a barter kind of economy where I can be like, I baked you this loaf of bread. And so now you can give me like some apples. And that would be great, except for I'm a writer. And so I don't have a whole lot of like “barterable” skills. I did learn to bake bread during the pandemic, though, so I could do that. And so the money chapter was really challenging for me to write.
Because I was just like, I would just rather not think about this. And just kind of be like, well, I don't know you should probably just give away as much money as you can and then try your best to pay your bills. But that's really hard because there are all these oppressive systems and student loans and loss of jobs, especially now. Yeah, that wasn't a reality when I was writing the book, right? Yeah. And so that chapter was really hard because it's also so not that the other things I wrote about aren't sensitive. But I feel like money hits people in a really deep place where there's a lot of like, shame bound up in that. It is such an overwhelming thing now that I'm saying all this out loud. I'm like, well, that is true for race and gender and all these other things too. I don't like talking about money, though. I was I didn't like I didn't like writing that one.
Seth Price 25:36
I get that. I don't know if you know this or not. So I am actually the like, the Vice President of a branch of a bank of a massive
Megan Westra 25:45
Oh…ha!
Seth Price 25:46
Money for me is my jam, it is fine.. My wife also is like, whatever. I don't want to talk about money. And honestly, I think most people don't want to talk about money. I, however, thrive in it. I would talk about it…you give me the Bible and you give me economics and I am I would rather watch that than the Super Bowl.
Megan Westra 26:02
That's so great. There's less concussions to.
Seth Price 26:06
Yes. No waivers. There's definitely social distancing. Because nobody wants to be around me. Yeah. So it works out. It works out well.
But I will say so I had a friend call me today. He's like, I have a question. Mortgage. This one. Here's my cars. Here's one of my debt. Can you run the math in your head? Tell me what to do. I was like, sure, and he's like, appreciate it. I think my wife's gonna be on board. I was like, make it your idea. You can be the hero. I don't really care. Just go do your thing. Good luck to you.
Um, yeah. So I don't think you're the only person that struggles with money because I see so many people that struggle with money. But I'm curious, how does the church Get a grip on its money? Because we just hoard money like the big C church when we could literally wave a wand and help people. But we have endowment funds and pretty brick buildings and we own massive amounts of property and etc. So yeah, what would you say about like church as we need to come to grips with my neck. What should the church do or the church do with its wealth?
Megan Westra 27:04
I think that especially right now, with so many churches not utilizing those fancy brick buildings and all these different things, I think we're in a really interesting moment to ask some really important questions that are long overdue. You know, I think that space to worship is important. I also think that what we have decided is like a necessity for that, particularly like, for churches who are trying to do like modern or contemporary worship. And so it's like, well, yeah, and we need LED lights, and we need smoke machines. And we need…it just seems really out of touch with what is actually needed for worship.
I would like to see more churches and I talked about a few different examples in the book of different churches or different congregations who have taken on medical debt or who have taken on student loan debt or things like that in their community, and said, we're just gonna cover this! We're gonna pay this off for you. And I've heard more stories about things like that even since the book went to print of different, you know, whether it was individual congregations or conferences within a denomination who have said, ”No, we are going to pull our resources and do this”. And I think that there's some good small steps that certain congregations and denominations are taking in that. I think we could do a lot more.
I think that there's a lot more resource allocation that could happen. Where you just decide okay, no, if we're going to talk about following Jesus who literally opened his ministry in the book of Luke anyway, with like, “good news for the poor”, like that's where it starts, then that's pretty hard to get over and he wasn't talking about the poor in Spirit. So what does it look like to actually proclaim a gospel? What if we were churches that the first thing people thought of when you said church was they were like, “oh, man, if you've got a really active church in your community, that's so good for the poor in your community”. But that is not what people say about churches right now.
But I just think like, what, how would the world look different? And so I think, thinking beyond just that immediate need, like a lot of churches are pretty good at like these compassion based ministries of like, oh, we're going to provide a food pantry, or we're going to provide a clothes closet or whatever. And those things are helpful as like meeting acute needs. They don't do anything to address the question of why do we need to have a food pantry? Why do we need to have a clothing closet? Why are people getting into such a position that they don't know how they're going to get their next meal? And those are the questions that I think we absolutely need to be asking those. Those don't feel good, though. And those challenge our assumptions about what is ours and what we deserve. They challenge our assumptions about morality. And like, you know, can you be a good person and not know where your next meal is coming from? Because, you know, deep down a lot of people, I think, have this sort of like superiority complex of like, well, I wouldn't end up in that kind of situation. I am a hard worker, it's like, well, that person works hard to and they don't have their needs met right now. Let's ask questions about that.
And so I think that it would challenge people in the church in a different way to start to have those conversations to start to dig into those questions. But I think that if we started to do that, and then, reallocate our funds in ways that addressed kind of the roots of those things, instead of, you know, “oh, hey, we all collected this many pounds of food and now we can feed these people”
Seth Price 30:59
For one week.
Megan Westra 31:01
For one week! And now we feel really good about that and about ourselves because I did this thing. Right, that gets back to that kind of consumer framework that I talked about in the book of it's, it's about, I feel good, because I did this to help. So you also have a power dynamic there. I still have the power and I'm helping this person. And what Jesus is inviting us to do is to say, like Zacchaeus, for those of us who have resources or for congregations or denominations have a lot of resources. I'm giving it all backQ
Seth Price 31:33
To some people I'm going to give more than what I took.
Megan Westra 31:35
Yes, to some I'm going to give more than what I owe. Yeah, if I have defrauded you in any way than four times what I took. And you don't have to look too far into the history of a number of denominations to see that like no, a lot of those endowment funds came from slaveholders. So I've got some ideas about where that money could go!
Seth Price 32:16
I didn't expect to read about reparations in your book,
Megan Westra 32:19
That’s because you don’t know me very well. (laughs)
Seth Price 32:20
Well, that's my fault. And I can fix that now. Can you talk a bit about that? And because as I read that I was like, golly, I mean, I was challenged, but can you? I've tried to tackle that topic with some good friends before and it never goes well, because we both end up going. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
Megan Westra 32:39
Yeah. I think that it's an imperative conversation to have and I use Ta-Nehisi Coates article from The Atlantic on reparations as a source. And I would highly recommend, if there's people who are listening, if you haven't read that he is much more eloquent than I am. But I think if we look back at it History of the United States, it is impossible for us to look at where we are today without seeing that the way that wealth has been acquired, and then distributed and passed down in this country, is along racial lines. And, you know, we typically talk about this with regard to African American or black Americans. You know, the same could be said, or similar things could be said for indigenous people, for Native Americans. That's part of why the Supreme Court case that was handed down, I think July you know, kind of upholding Oklahoma reservations.
Seth Price 33:43
Yeah, I don't know what you're referencing.
Megan Westra 33:46
Oh, so there is a case, a Supreme Court case in that had to do with who owns the land basically, in Oklahoma, like is half of the state of Oklahoma a reservation or does it all belong to the state? And that was a really big landmark case because the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the tribes.
Seth Price 34:08
Really? That is fantastic!
Megan Westra 34:09
Yeah. Which was, you know, 2020 has handed us, you know, some good things. And so similar things could be said about what do we do with reparations as far as like, we all live on land that was not acquired by ethical means. Like, I just bought this house that is on the land of the Menominee, and the Pottawatomie, and the Lakota and there were like two other tribes when I looked it up. That it's their ancestral land. If I go back in the records of the city, my house is 110 years old. And you know, it was this neighborhood was settled by German immigrants and things like that.
So I can look back and I can say, this is who the official record of this land is to, but it's not who this land belongs to. Because it was never purchased. And so I think, you know, In all of these instances, I can look at the things in my life. The way that I build wealth now that my family builds wealth, right, like we just bought this house. We, like at some point, the ethics of that break down, which isn't to say you should not buy houses, I just bought a house.
But how do we think through this in ways that challenge us to imagine what could be possible? Instead of just saying like, well, that's just the way it is. And that's the only thing that we can do. You know, I think that sometimes people get bogged down with reparations because they think, “Well, I didn't own slaves”, or “my family didn't own slaves. My ancestors didn't own slaves”, especially if you're in the south, like, well, everybody knows somebody who like their ancestors were like, big plantation owners, right?
You're like, “Well, I'm not like that person”. But my grandparents benefited from the GI Bill after World War Two. They got money to build houses. The GI Bill wasn't applied across racial lines. There were people who were promised things for going off to war and they didn't receive them! You know, we can think about who is able to be employed, and where were they allowed to be employed. You can think about all of those sorts of questions. You can think about things like redlining, which I talked about in the book a little bit.
Seth Price 36:18
Just took a training on that every three months. It's a horrible thing.
Megan Westra 36:21
Yeah, it's a horrible! Bank, you know about this
Seth Price 36:25
That part anyway.
Megan Westra 36:28
Things like that, where, you know, there are still in I live in Milwaukee. And so the book The Color of Law, like uses my city as a as a case study of like how bad this can get. So, you know, you have entire families who put their eggs in the basket that they were told, hey, buy a house. That's how you build wealth, go and do this. This is security for you and your children and grandchild, whatever. And then, with the ways that these loans were applied or doled out, just saw property values crashed And so I think when we start to pull conversations about reparations into the here and now and into like, No, no, we're not talking about your ancestors. Let's talk about your grandparents. Let's talk about your parents. Let's talk about, you know, those kinds of people. You know, let's talk about right now. And you know, who is able to get into certain rooms and have access to certain scholarships? How many jobs have you gotten because you knew somebody not because what your diploma said?
Seth Price 37:35
All of them if I'm honest. Not the interview. But after that, yeah, absolutely. So I'm curious, I want to I want to roll it back. So what is the church's complicity in either reparations or all of that, like, I understand the governmental, the financial, the economic. But what is the church's complicity?
Megan Westra 37:54
Yeah, so Jemar Tisby does a really good job of this in his book, The Color of Compromise and so anyone who reads my book and is like, Oh, I want to know more about this, like, the next book you read is Jemar’s. But you know, if you're, if your wife has questions about that, then you didn't hear that for me. I don't want to be responsible for that.
Seth Price 38:13
I can tell her that a pastor told me that I should read it. Oh, and I feel like that's the Jesus card always wins.
Megan Westra 38:18
Yeah, always. Yeah, your eternal salvation depends on it.
Seth Price 38:24
I would like to be absolved
Megan Westra 38:26
Thus sayeth the Lord. So no, Jemar’s book is really, really good on this. And so when you look at things like everything from how certain denominations were formed, and that certain denominations exist because of splits that happened around slavery in the Civil War. You know, you have some complicity there.
I talk in the book about how the fellowship hall that I grew up in, that I like took piano lessons in, was funded in part by the KKK. Like the the funding for constructing that building in 1987 came from the KKK. And so things like that thinking about who are the elders in the churches, you know, going back, who are okaying certain decisions? Who are choosing, hey, we're gonna buy smoke machines, instead of investing in the community or whatever, right? Like, anytime we're making those decisions corporately and choosing who gets to be those decision makers it's an opportunity for complicity or not. And I think that there is a division between church and state, and also the way that we have chosen, as the church, to participate in politics or the ways that we have permitted our congregants to just participate in politics without thinking, you know, like, what would Jesus do here with this candidate? Not to go like early 90s on us.
But, you know, I think that all of those are markets. of complicity, right? When we decide that like, okay, the land that this church was built on was unlawfully taken, was wrongfully taken, from indigenous people who this is their ancestral land. And we're not going to interrogate that at all, because that's just too complicated. And we knowingly do that, then we become complicit with the ongoing injustice of that. When we choose to say, you know what, we'll take money from this group, because we really need a fellowship hall. And so like, we're not racist, but…then we become complicit in that. When we decide what the deal breakers are, and what aren't the deal breakers, when we decide, you know, I think of, you know, being in like, cities right now and which churches are choosing to buy property and in what neighborhood and how is that driving gentrification? How is that pushing poor people further and further out? And if we're not asking critical questions about why and is this the right thing to do and who are we displacing in this action? And how are we going to try to safeguard against that? Do the people who are in this neighborhood even want us here? Then we become complicit, even if that's not our intention.
Seth Price 41:12
Yeah. So you said you didn't want to go 90’s but I'm about to it was actually this chapter. I realize I think we're the same age. So what the heck is Captain Planet doing in a book about Jesus?
Megan Westra 41:24
Oh, my gosh!
Seth Price 41:25
Yeah, I read that I was like, there's a really small window for Captain Planet. It's not a big window. (laughter both)
Megan Westra 41:32
We didn’t have cable so my like cartoon memories are real small. It's a real narrow set.
Seth Price 41:37
So what is Captain Planet doing in a book about Jesus though in all seriousness?
Megan Westra 41:42
Yeah, so I was trying to think through what was the story I was given, right? Because that's the that's where I start all the chapters is like, this is the story that formed us the story that formed me. And so I was trying to think through like, what is my earliest memory of any sort of environmental thing, environmentalism and creation care, whatever. Because I grew up in rural West Virginia, like Southwestern Virginia and back in the mountains and the trees and so there was lots of nature. And I remember seeing like the commercials for like the Arbor Day Foundation and things like that. And, you know, all the PSA is like, go plant a tree. And I'm like, looking at the forest behind the house, like, is this really necessary? And so Captain Planet and me thinking it was really cool. And then my parents kind of being like, “I don’t know about that.” But that was the first time I remembered this, like, this distance between God created the world into good creation, and like, ehhhhh but maybe we don't need to go that crazy like me. Yeah, that seems excessive. Yeah. So that's how Captain Planet ended up in my book.
Seth Price 42:52
So I springboard off that because I do want to get to a more theological thing. So for me, I also was told I remember of the day my dad watched me watching Captain Planet. And he asked me why I liked it. And I just liked like, I just thought the powers were kind of cool. I don't think the ecology caught up with me for probably a few years later. And then I was like, “oh fantastic!”
Megan Westra 43:11
You put the rings together!!
Seth Price 43:16
I transcribe all the so I'm really I've been actually looking. That's I wrote down two questions to ask this one and then probably the next one. Because I've been looking for the proper YouTube clip so that in the transcript, people can click it and really see because I don't think most people know who Captain Planet is.
Yeah, I actually think I remember the episode I'm trying to find it doesn't matter. But I feel like the pushback that I got from my family was, we have total dominion over creation, we'll do what we want. It's all gonna burn anyway, who the heck cares! Which I don't think is a good Biblical reading, but with what you studied on ecology and everything else and the way that the church and the culture as a whole have treated the environment and the planet. I'm curious. Do you feel like it's connected to end times theology or just Genesis theology? Like, no, this is ours we do what we want with is my house if I want too. If I want to rip the wall out then I'll rip the wall out. It is none of your darn business. I feel like it's more connected to end time theology, but I don't quite know why. So I'm curious, your take.
Megan Westra 44:20
I would say it's definitely connected to end times theology. And I would argue that even a lot of the Genesis theology that you see prominent in evangelical circles, you know, Genesis theologies that would like lead people to build large Arks in Kentucky and things like that. I would argue that that's more connected to end times theology than a lot of people would would recognize at first
Seth Price 44:43
You are talking about Answers in Genesis, correct?
Megan Westra 44:45
Yes, yes. Yeah. Uh huh. Unless there's other arks in Kentucky that I didn't know about, in which case I have more questions.
But yeah, I think there's so much that can be traced back and I went real deep on all the history stuff that ended up being, you know, just very small snippets. And in each chapter because when I submitted my first draft with three chapters of history at the beginning of the book, my editor said, “Nobody will read this”
Seth Price 45:18
I would!
Megan Westra 45:19
Oh thank you!
Seth Price 45:21
That's me. I'm the guy that buys Robert Alters version of Genesis, which is 500 pages. So I would!
Megan Westra 45:24
I'll send you my three chapters of history that I then had to, like, parse out into smaller bits.
Seth Price 45:30
How painful is that?
Megan Westra 45:32
It was very painful.
But there's so much in modern evangelical thought, in the United States, that really goes back to a lot of this idea about end times, and really like dispensationalist kind of reading of the End Times. So you know, and none of that really existed until like the last like 150- 200 years. So that's kind of interesting. Yeah, yeah, so you have like Darby, but even he at first was kind of disregarded as this like, okay, no, that's not... I mean, you could…All right, cool, you stay over there.
And then after WW1, because prior to World War One, the predominant view had been like the world is just going to get better and better and better people are going to continue to advance progress. And you know, and there were many reasons why that wasn't warranted even before World War One, but that was kind of the prevailing opinion. And then after World War One, it was like, oh, shoot, we're not just gonna get better and better. Look what we just did, like, look what humanity just did! The types of hell that humans can create. And so then you start to see this end time theology start to gain a little traction, like, “Oh, no, the world's gonna end”. And that was really believable, because the world had just been at war.
And so kind of like with conspiracy theories right now with Coronavirus. People will grab on to it because they're looking for answers. And it kind of makes sense. Yeah. Like you can kind of see how those dots connect. That doesn't mean it's good information. But, you know, human are always trying to make meaning we're always trying to make the pieces fit. And if they don't fit together neatly, which usually they don't, then you know, sometimes we just jam them together and try to be like, “Look, we finished the puzzle and ignore all of the mess”.
So you start to see it gained steam. You see more panic around the time of the Great Depression, and then the New Deal passing and people starting to just kind of enter into this more reactive posture of saying like, Well, no, I can't be that because if you're going to have this end times theology that says that Jesus is going to come scoop us up out of this mess. It's all gonna burn anyway. You have to have a very particular way that you're reading Scripture. And so if you start to mess with any of these other things that would change the assumptions you are coming to Scripture within that in times theology no longer works. So you have to really dig into and entrench yourself into that whole hermeneutic. And then we end up where we are today. But there's Matthew Avery Sutton's book American Apocalypse kind of pulls all of this around with like, yeah, so much of evangelicalism is predicated on end times theology.
Sorry, you're gonna walk out of this in interview with like, shut it down. 12 other books that I'm like, “No, you should read this too.” But especially if you like history Sutton's book is phenomenal.
Seth Price 48:41
I do like history. I can't spell Apocalypse, but that's okay. Because I have it required right now. Right, literally. So I want to ask two final questions, and I'm gonna give you back to your family. And so the first one is I want to kind of predicate off that conversation we had about theosis, and then just the title of your book.
So if that's happening internally, to each one of us like we're constantly if we're, if we're doing faith, I think the way that we're intended to with proximity to people that need help, and sometimes that's us. You know, if we're doing it the way that I think Jesus modeled and the way that we should be doing it, as opposed to Kiwanis with a better nonprofit status, which stole from a friend of mine, but I like it. I'm trying to figure how to make a shirt out of it without getting sued by Kiwanis. What does being born again and again, look like for an institution as big as the church and not necessarily just the western church, like maybe just a church overall?
Because there's an inherent like, if we do this, people lose jobs. Like the church employs a massive amount of people, they do a lot of good things. But when you're born again, and then again, like I know me personally, like things go away, like my views and some of the stuff that I do. They stop happening, and that also has an impact. So what does that look like for the church thinking about that as a body?
Megan Westra 50:01
So this is why I'm not the Pope. You know that and the fact that I'm a woman, and I'm Protestant!
Seth Price 50:10
Progress maybe we'll do it.
Megan Westra 50:11
I don't want to be the Pope.
(Laughter)
I don't know I that's a really, really good question. And I tried very much in the book to focus on like just evangelicals and people who, you know, maybe grew up evangelical, but no longer associate with that. Because I think that the church is so big, and so varied, and this process is going to like different for different denominations and for different kinds of streams within the faith. Even if we're all heading toward the same thing. If I am lost, and I've gotten too far east, then my journey to get back on the on the path isn't going to look the same as yours if you go too far north, right.
And so, I like to be really careful not to like try to prescribe like, well, this is what needs to happen. I think that in general, that kind of framework of connection instead of consumption. Asking really hard questions of whether it's our individual congregations, or our denominations, or just more broadly, like what's like, what are we doing here? Right? Like, what are we doing?
You know, if we can say how are we connecting with God and with our neighbor and with ourselves because there's a whole lot of like, super unholy self-denial that happens in churches too. Of just like, don't know your feelings, don't know your thoughts. Don't know your desires, just shove it all down and be nice, which is not helpful.
And so I think if we can start asking questions about like, how can we invite people into greater connection with God, theirselves and their neighbors? How can we invite people to do kind of continue on in practicing that. And so what are the practices that serve that well? What are the institutions that serve that well? What are the social gatherings that serve that well? And then let the rest of it fall away!
You know, I think if we can start to look at our congregations or denominations or the church more broadly and say, where have we caused harm, intentionally or unintentionally and I would really love for us as institutions to just get away from this like, well, but we didn't mean for that to cause harm because that's not helpful. And to say, okay, so if step one is we want to cultivate practices and gatherings and liturgies whatever, that connect people, God, neighbor, and ourself in more honest ways and invite them to continue in that practice, then then the next step beyond that would be to say, Okay, and now that we are starting to get more grounded and more centered within ourselves in our relationships, how do we repair the harm we have done? And then to start to ask those questions to start to, to dig into that. To say, where do we need to make financial restitution? Where do we need to say, you know what we no longer have the moral authority to speak on this issue because of this moral failing. And so we will defer to this group or to these people or to this population because they are the ones that we silenced in harming them.
So how do we start to do some of those things like restorative or transformative justice models within the way that we relate to the world? (We begin) to say, we have caused harm (and so) we will repair it because we follow Jesus and Jesus comes to seek and to save and to restore and to redeem. And we have spent a whole lot of time instead just camping out and saying like, “yeah, we're the redeemed!” while we're sitting on top of a pile of bones! God's inviting us to resurrection though, not to build camp on bones.
Seth Price 54:12
hmm. There could almost be a benediction, because started preaching there and I'm fine with it. I liked it. Yeah, no, that's not a bad thing. So no, no apologies needed. So you've mastered God, as your husband said. (Megan laughs) So this will be my last question. So it's a question I've asked everyone this year. So if you were to try to explain, you know, your daughter comes up, my daughter comes up, my son comes up and they're like, hey, Megan, what is God like? Who is like, what is like, you're gonna try to wrap into words that what is that?
Megan Westra 54:44
I mean, I would start by quoting Scripture.
God is love.
And then especially when I was talking to a kid, I like to try to pull images or relationships or things like that, like God is like when you go over to To your Nana's house, and she's so excited to teach you how to quilt. And you're both just so excited to jump into this and, and you get frustrated because you stick yourself with the needle, you don't get your stitches, right. And she's with you the whole time and she can't make it. suck less. She can't make you learn it faster. She can't keep your fingers from hurting because she's with you, when she's guiding you, and if you pay attention, then you get that guidance that you need. Or you know, God is like a warm house when it's 30 below zero in Wisconsin. And it's warm and safe. God is like the wind that just like sweeps you down the beach and you're like, “Oh my gosh, I don't even know if I'm gonna be able to keep my feet under me right now”. And usually, you know, I worked as a children's pastor for close to 10 years. I'd rather talk to kids about God all day than adults in a lot of ways. Because I think we tend to get real freaked out as adults sometimes like, how am I going to explain this? Right? Like, how am I going to wrap God up into a neat and tidy little bow?
I remember I was talking to a group of third through fifth graders about the Trinity one time, which why…I don't know, but I was. And so I was trying, I was like drawing all the diagrams, right, like the triangles and the different things where I'm like, trying to explain this, and one of them was like, “I got it. It's a God blob.” And I was like, “yep, that's it. That's a god blob”. And so I think that there is an imagination that kids bring to things. There's a willingness to be like, “Oh, yeah, and God is like this! And God is like that!” that adults feel either silly or they feel too vulnerable to engage in or they are like, you know, embarrassed really well. When I think about God, I think about, you know, my grandpa who took me fishing or when Think about God, I think about my older cousin who, you know, always stood up to the bullies, for me.
When I think about God, you know, all of that stuff, right? Or we are like, you know what, when I think about God, it doesn't feel safe. And I have a lot of trauma around that, or a lot of wounds around that. But we don't feel safe admitting that to one another. And so I would rather talk to kids about it all day because they're just wide open usually, you know, with what they think or what they feel. But that's usually where I would start is to say, first and foremost, God is love, and God is with us. And there's no place in creation, no distance to which God will not go to be with us. It's what we learn in the incarnation, right? It's like, no, God became flesh into us. The Message like “moved into the neighborhood”. Jesus dying on the cross isn't just to say like, oh, and now we're redeemed from sin and I don't have to die. It's to say no, like, Jesus is with us even into death. There's no place where God cannot reach will not go to be with and to love and and to to call us into life. And so what are some things that we can think about to help us imagine that? Because that's really hard to grasp!
Seth Price 58:16
Yes. Yeah, thank you for that. So you do a lot of things. You're an author, a mom, a pastor, you run a podcast. So where do you want people to go? Like, where do they go to follow your stuff? Buy the books everywhere that you can buy the books? All the stuff?
Megan Westra 58:35
Where should people find the jazz? Yes. Well, the easiest way to find me is if you leave a little mug of coffee outside your back steps, and just like set a big cardboard box up and like just trap me in there. Like you would like a stray cat or something. It's been a really long day. (Laughter from both) That was a weird answer!!
No, people can find me on Twitter. You can edit that part out if you want! That was very strange!
Seth Price 59:06
(speaking through laughter) I don't know if I will or not.
Megan Westra 59:08
That’s fine. That's gonna be one of those things that when my husband listens because he listens to all the interviews I do, he's gonna be like that was really weird. Why were you being weird? People can find me at @mwestramke on Twitter and on Instagram. We can find me on Facebook at Megan K Westra. I’m not on there as much though because Facebook is a hellscape!
Seth Price 59:31
Yes!
Megan Westra 59:32 my website is MeganWestra.com. The podcast is the Podluck. So think like church potluck, but podluck. There will be more episodes of that coming soon. I have have some in the hopper because I way over estimated what else I was going to be able to do while launching a book and moving in the middle of a pandemic. But there'll be some more episodes at the end of August. And I think that's it, they can buy the book wherever. As of this afternoon, Amazon was out of stock. So there was a Yeah, it's a great problem to have. And so it was a longer ship time if people were expecting to do a little hop on Amazon and do like a two day Prime thing. It's more like it will ship out in five days, but then it'll be two days from there. So if you order to like bookshop that org or Barnes and Noble or obviously like your local independent bookseller, they can get it all to you probably as fast as Amazon can.
Seth Price 1:00:29
Well, good. Well, I appreciate your time so much again, the night yeah, your family as well.
I was really, really challenged by Megan about complacency as I read through her book. And her book is very good and you really should go and get it. The bulk of the middle though I just kept being challenged so many status quos. And while I don't struggle with money, as Megan had said that she did and talking about money, there are other things that she referenced that I genuinely do. And it's a daily, weekly, sometimes hourly, struggle. But I keep coming back to something that she said on restorative justice. You know, where she said, if there's a way that we, the church, you and I, our communities have caused harm that we must repair it because we follow Jesus and Jesus comes to seek and to save and restore and redeem. And that means something! That's a heck of a challenge.
I want to thank Heath McNease again for his music in this episode. You can check out his links and Megan's in the show notes.
The music from today's episode is in the Spotify playlist for the show. I hope you're all well talk next week.
Be blessed.