Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Jim Bono 0:00
I think one of the things that I would say, or behave, differently than trying to answer your question behave differently than the typical sort of evangelical Church is, don't assume you're right. Don't assume that you know what “right” actually is. And maybe we would do better to listen more and to accept more mystery. Because, and this is so different, because we want to be right. We want to have, you know, we want to have it down. We want to be assured that we're on the right team. We want to be assured that our ticket is stamped. We want to have the right color team jersey. Well, you know, we have 30,000 brands of Christianity. That just seems nuts to me. Really! I mean, are all of them right, are none of them, right? I mean, we spend so much energy over matters of theology, we're just like that political diametric arguments in politics. It's the same problem. You know, it's like, if I taught you pick the topic, the religious topic, that was controversial and people would polarize really, really quickly. And so what we've done is we've just really become fractionated. And we've become so focused on belief system, that we don't have good practice and we don't have behavior that matches any of the belief systems we purport to observe.
Seth Price 2:25
Hello there, my friends. I'm Seth and I'm glad you're here. Another fantastic conversation today. So many of you hear me plug every single week. And this is kind of that now a support the show on Patreon kind of thing. So everything has costs, and there's almost 40 people, I guess that keeps the lights on that make this show actually possible. There's a level there were a few of us have a conversation. And so the first one of those was with Daniel Kingston and I'm extremely excited for today's today's will be part two with the patron conversations with Jim Bono. know a bit about Jim before he gives you his own faith story a bit. I've been engaged with Jim on social media and by email…gosh, I don't know how many months now, but it's been a blessing to get to know him. And I'm humbled by his support of the show, as with everyone else who supports the show in any way. But Jim is so wise. The more that I get to know him the smarter he gets, and so it is my privilege to present this conversation to you. Part Two of the Patreon conversations with Jim Bono.
Seth Price 4:12
Jim Bono, welcome to the show, and welcome to a different version of the show. I appreciate you as a patron and I am excited to talk to you this evening. I've been looking forward to this for some time, regardless of my lack of calendaring skills. (chuckle) So, to be fair, usually whoever the person is that I'm trying to book, there's some third party that's doing all the work for both of us which I have come to really rely on those people. But I don't have that for me and my wife doesn't run this calendar, I have to, and I'm really not good at it. But welcome, welcome!
Jim Bono 4:49
Thank you Seth.
Seth Price 4:51
So you have been one of the most active people on on social media sites and a lot of what you bring when you comment…like I really have come to value your input. If anything, I've learned that there are a lot of people and so many people know so much more things than I do about different things that I didn't know that I want to know about. And I count you amongst that list. And so, before we get going, I wanted to tell you how I always really value that, but I want to know more about you. And so you’ve sent me, you know, a Word document months ago, it might have been four months ago, five months ago, have a little bit of your story, but for those that will eventually be listening they don't have that. So, what would you want people to know about you?
Jim Bono 5:38
Oh wow, um, well, I was born and raised in California on a dairy farm I was the fifth of six kids. And sort of the original nuclear family were four kids and then there was quite a gap and I was the Christmas party accident. And so in September, I was born and was raised on the farm. And, you know with dairy it's 365 days a year, twice a day. And grew up in a very rural, very traditional conservative environment. There were five classrooms in our school for eight grades and there were 12 kids in my eighth grade graduating class. So that gives you an idea, we are talking really tiny. And you can only split a farm so many ways. So I knew that that wasn't going to be in my future, went off to high school and then the local community college and jumped from there to the UC system and graduated when I was 20.
And was gonna do a Master's in Public Health at UC Berkeley and ended up with a summer job on a native Indian Native American Indian Reservation. And that summer lasted six years. So (I) was, as far as I know, the only white guy the tribes ever hired, and ended up actually running the health clinic for them for a while. And then met my wife. She was visiting from Seattle, she had family there. And we got married.
And then shortly after our first child was born, we moved to Seattle because she had some specific medical needs, and I was going to restart my education. So I did my master's work at the University of Washington, we got the medical stuff for our daughter taken care of and then did 20 something years in healthcare. And then got a job with the University of Illinois and worked in academia for the last 23 years and then a couple of years ago retired to be the primary caregiver for my wife who has, she's older than I am, so she’s developed some health issues so it was just time to be home. So I've been home for a while.
Seth Price 8:00
So there's a lot there's that I want to unpack there. 20 years old and you're done with undergrad, right? That seems quick either that or I'm slow.
Jim Bono 8:11
No, no, I was just driven. Because, like, I knew that there wasn't gonna be a place for me in that little tiny town. And so that was my ticket out.
Seth Price 8:24
And then from there, some of my, some of the favorite people that I engage with one of them is Mark Charles, and another one that I engage with much less but I really value her voice is, Kaitlin Curtis, and they just bring an insight that I'm not familiar with. So I'm curious when Why do you think you need to play off what you said you pretty much the only white guy like, why you? Like was it something that you had to offer? Was it maybe just an interview question that you nailed or where you were the only qualified candidate or…?
Jim Bono 8:56
(chuckles) The clinic had just had a huge huge fire, and they had literally burned to the ground. And they were doing clinic in the back half of a Methodist church that was so old we literally put buckets on the desk when it rained. Because the rain would come right through the shingles on the roof. And they just needed an extra pair of hands. And it was gonna just be can you come and help us we need to try to find some money. So if you can figure out how to write grants we'll pay you for a summer. Well, it just stretched and what happened was I just…the woman who was the executive director was the Native American nurse practitioner, delightful woman and a Annabelle Whipple, and I worked for Annie for years and I just did whatever she needed me to do.
And eventually she decided to retire and for about 18 months I was executive director of the clinic. But then it just was time for me to go. I mean, our daughter was born. She had really specific needs that we just were not going to be able to get on the Rez.
Seth Price 10:12
How did working on the Rez change, so I'm assuming at this time were you are you Christian at this time, or a follower of Jesus, or no?
Jim Bono 10:24
Yeah, what happened? I was not raised anything. But I had a very spiritual Catholic Grandma, from Italy. And so there was always a sense of spirituality, but there was no practice. I mean, you know, you're not going to make it into church if you're smelling like the barn. So that just was not ever really in the cards for us. And my dad was nominally Catholic. My mom was nominally Methodist, and we were all kind of nominally nothing.
So, when I moved to the town where the Rez was, there was a little tiny Presbyterian church who had a pastor and his wife who had just graduated from Fuller. And he ended up on the Rez and so I was ripening and they were there. And so that was where I really came to faith and got baptized in the river in the in the National Forest.
Seth Price 11:35
So that's an entirely different you know, coming for lack of a better metaphor, you know, coming to find Jesus metaphor being on a Rez, tribal. So how did being you know in a different culture maybe impact the way that you do church or did it?
Jim Bono 11:56
Well, it didn't because the clinic on the Rez was the only health services in the town. So everybody got served. And then one of the grants we were able to get was a grant from the state of California and it required us to serve everybody. So not only was there a tradition of serving everybody, but then when when we received the grant and built a new clinic, it became a requirement to do so. So we just sort of formalized what we were doing already, but in other ways, the Rez was quite segregated. And one of the ways that it was segregated was there were white churches, and there were Indian churches. And there would be a few people because families would intermarry. And and there would be, you know, there would be shades of stuff. But the little Presbyterian Church was predominantly a white church. Now there would be kids from the Rez who would come in for the youth program. Because we actually had a youth minister, and so they would participate there. But on Sunday, they would go to the Methodist Church, which was predominantly a Native American church. So it was not integrated in that way.
Seth Price 13:17
Is it now or do you spend much time still in that circle at all?
Jim Bono 13:21
I just went back for the first time in 40 years, this last September, they had the 60th anniversary of the founding of the clinic, and they flew me back, which was just amazing. And Annabelle is still alive. There are only four of us who are still alive who were working at the clinic at that time. And, and we almost lost Annie, she had been really sick. And I don't really think the valley is more integrated. I mean, people are polite. You know, and families that intermarry. But economically, it's not very economically integrated. There tend to be Indian businesses and Indian enterprises that are linked to the Rez and the tribes. And then there are a few because it's really hard times in Covelo right now it's the name of the town is called Covelo, and economically, it's just really struggling. There was some thought that actually growing marijuana would be a way to revive the local economy. But that actually did not work out. Because large agribusiness ended up dominating that market and all of the small growers, which is part of the sort of underground economy of Mendocino and Humboldt counties actually got squeezed out of work. So the unemployment rate, on the north coast area are very, very high. Really about the only economic engine going on right now are programs that the tribes have and that does lead to some sort of tense moments.
Seth Price 15:10
So I don't have direct contact with much Native American, anything, where I'm at in Virginia, which is really sad, because there's a lot of signage and everything's named for different tries, but they're just elsewhere. I wish honestly, if I'd have been open if my eyes have been open at the time, I had much more access to that type of influences, or at least voices when I was in Texas, but I was a different element than I wasn't even trying to look.
Jim Bono 15:37
Right. Well, and then from there and went to Seattle, and the native peoples in Seattle and, and British Columbia, have retained their tradition to a much greater extent than in California. And then from Seattle, I moved to New Mexico to work in health systems in New Mexico and in New Mexico, the tribe on their reservations are actually sovereign national entities. So most American Anglos don't know that and so like Acoma is actually way, way, way older than Boston. It's considered to be the the oldest continually inhabited location in North America. So my exposure to native populations is more I think, than the average white guy. And my sensitivities to their culture, because of my experience in California on the Rez, I am so grateful for it. I just love the folks that I worked with.
Seth Price 16:45
You mentioned academia and so your training, I don't believe you're a physician, correct? So you're training people how to run medical practices, or?
Jim Bono 16:54
Yeah, kinda. What happened was I wanted to help manage and develop the health systems. So after I helped grow the clinic in Northern California, I got my master's in healthcare admin from the University of Washington, worked in a local hospital there, the single hospital, in the very trendy town of Bellevue, then moved to Albuquerque and worked for a Catholic system there that had three different hospitals. So it was bigger, it was more complicated. I was there for about six years, moved to San Diego, where I worked for a system that had six hospital, five different medical groups. Gosh, 20 to 25 years ago had like, over $2 billion in billings annually. I don't even have any idea what they are doing now.
So really complicated systems and my job was to look at those neighborhoods to look at the community and figure out “Okay, what's missing”? You know, are we missing a kind of service? Could we expand cardiology? Could we, you know, do these other sorts of services? How do we understand this market? How do we reach out to the market? So my job was a combination of planning and marketing, healthcare services. Now on the side, it was both very interested in underserved population. So to the extent possible I would go, Oh, and by the way, we could put a clinic here and it would actually be very, very busy. And even with a lower income group, we could break even on that.
So there was always this sort of edge of a sort of social awareness because of the time I spent on Rez, and because I frankly just grew up so poor. So was doing that and then got an interview opportunity for a job in Chicago with the University of Illinois in their health science system. And they brought me into work. They have six different health science colleges. And they tried to get the doctors to talk to the nurses, to talk to the physical therapists, you know, to talk to the dentist. To me, it was kind of a fool's errand. But it was a great idea at the time, and did that for a while. And then the Dean of the College of Pharmacy is this wonderful friend of mine, and she lives here in Naperville. We were riding home on the train one night and she said, you know, “you should come work for me”. And I thought she was joking because she had this really funny sense of humor. And I looked at her and I said, “Well, you know, I can be bought”. I mean, that's literally what I said. And she was serious.
Seth Price 19:49
She said how much?
Jim Bono 19:51
Like in retrospect, you just go you know, like, biggest forehead slap ever because you know, a week later, she shows up in my office with a department head and one of their more entrepreneurial faculty members. And we have an interview for an hour and then I go to work for her. And then she retired and I work for the Department Head who then became Dean for a number of years. So I did that for about maybe 16-17 years. And then the last couple of years at the University, I was the budget officer for the campus.
Seth Price 20:29
That’s a lot of hats. Yeah. So my wife, I feel like anyone that listens semi regularly would know. So my wife is a nurse and she works at a big health system. She works for the University of Virginia Hospital.
Jim Bono 20:42
In oncology, right?
Seth Price 20:45
Yeah, well, pediatric oncology, infusion, hematology, and some other words that I don’t know how to say, not just cancer kids, like I think there'll be some kids you know, with cystic fibrosis and anything that requires a little bit more. I don't want to say skill because all nurses have a massive amount of skill.
Jim Bono 21:02
Just a different specialization.
Seth Price 21:04
Yeah. You know things where the margin of error when you're administering drugs that are that potent on bodies that are that small is you just have to know what you're doing.
Jim Bono 21:18
You can’t screw up.
Seth Price 21:19
So I want to circle back to what always gets my my blood pumping. And so what, what form of Christianity would you call home today? And I often find that that's a hard question for myself to answer, but I'm curious as to because I know a lot of our conversations have dived into, you know, mysticism and contemplation and different stretched ways of Christianity. And so I'm really excited to hear the answer.
Jim Bono 21:47
Well, how about if I give you a bit of a process to create context.
Seth Price 21:53
Sure.
Jim Bono 21:55
Because not being raised anything and then graduating from college. You know, I'm like 20-21 and I in this little church with a brand new spanking pastor from Fuller. So that's what I get exposed to. And this guy is still my good friend and his name's Toby Nelson; Toby’s sort of very factual and very direct. And so a lot of that early period was just open the top of my skull and poured it in. So learning everything, reading everything, you know, long discussions into the night, you know, yada yada, yada.
And I think that that pretty much encapsulates the probably the first sort of couple of decades. You know, so starting at 20, into like the 40s. It was lots of Bible study leading Bibles. Studies, always engaged in something always engaged because of my management background engaged not only in the learning of the church but also the management of the church. And so, I would say that that would have been typical of your sort of mainline Protestant denomination. And Virginia and I kind of bumped around a lot. She is a church musician by training.
So sometimes we attended where she had a job, okay. So she had a job at this little Presbyterian Church, she became the music director, moved to Seattle. We actually went to, kind of strange, it was just in the neighborhood. We went to a sort of unaffiliated charismatic church for a while. That was an interesting move to Queen Anne Hill, where she had a job in a sort of regular Presbyterian Church. So we were in that. So for a long time, it was more Presbyterian than anything. And then Albuquerque we were in a different flavor of Presbyterian. We did a small stint where she was worship leader at an Episcopal Church. And then it was San Diego and there was Assembly of God for a minute and a Calvary Church, there were two different Calvary churches. So I'm kind of a mutt.
Seth Price 24:43
I haven’t heard any Baptists yet, did I miss Baptist? I haven't heard Baptist…
Jim Bono 24:45
You missed Baptist. But I have a sister who's Missionary Baptist. (laugh from both) So, there's that flavor in there too. So really kind of a big spectrum of your typical evangelical, mostly mainline, Protestant denominations. And then if you track Richard Rohr, it's, you know, order, disorder, reorder. So about in the 40s because remember this was about the time where, oh gosh, what was the name of that whole program where they would get bunches of guys together and they do Promise Keepers. Okay. Promise Keepers with like happening kind of around this time. And I was I was co leading a men's group. So you had the sort of marketing and content, the promise keepers, and I'm comparing that to what I've seen in guides actual lives. And the gap just becomes huge!
Because we actually had a group of guys who You know, there were a few guys who were sort of, I would say, sharing on a surface level. And then there was the guys who would stay later, who would talk about their marriage falling apart and yes it did. And the fact that they were on websites that led them into all kinds of problems, including getting fired at work. So that there was a whole different set of conversations around very different deep issues. And so why weren't those lives just better if all you needed to do was pray harder? And what is pray harder even mean?
And how was it that listening to the same stories wasn't actually transforming their lives? Great question! So what happened was there was a period of disorder, where I began to really dig into like, so what is it? You know, because some people are just really quite happy to show up to church, and this is going to be sound really kind of mean, to be entertained, or to have a sense of just so “Hey, hi. Hi How you doing”? You know, that sort of plastic smile thing? And we're in a community that is affluent and really, by far, majority white as it turns out.
So it's really easy to do that “hi BMW shiny teeth thing”. But that wasn't working at a deeper level of these guys lives.
And so that became more of an issue for me. And for me those answers to transformation, really centered more in contemplation and going just deeper. Not just repeating the same story and having it wash off, but looking for truth in a deeper different way. So, I'm, it's kind of funny, in many ways I just don't sit because I mean I could sit you know, I clean up decently. You know you see the profile pic clean up decently I can be polite, I can be civil and maybe even witty. But once you get past sad and have more serious conversation, it begins to be really interesting because some people just get really afraid. Because they don't want to do that. They don't want to go that deep. They don't want to be that exposed. Okay, that's fine, but for me, I'm really after much deeper stuff And in Virginia is like the original existentialist. So it would just figure that we would rub off on each other in that way.
So when we talk about religious stuff, which we do a great deal, we just tend to operate at that level that more automatically falls into that second category of what Richard calls “reorder”. And what would be a more mystical or contemplative approach.
Seth Price 29:33
So what practices have impacted you? So, I mean, there's a lot to contemplation, and I am by no means any form of an expert. I'm getting pretty good at the examen with intention. And by pretty good, like I'm able to do it at a longer amount of time. But I'm still by no means, I guess…I don't…I'm not saying it well, but I'm by no means at a place that I'm like, yeah, let me teach someone else possibly how to how to do the exam. I'm by no means there. So what are some of those things for you that you're like, you know, when I say contemplation, here's what I'm doing and with intention, here's what I'm trying to achieve?
Jim Bono 30:18
I think the examen is really, really helpful. I think that I'm going to put these items in sort of two buckets, because there are disciplines, and in my mind the examen and is a discipline. And then there are helpful tools or helpful things. And in my head, that's a different bucket. So in the toolbox, you've got the examen and you've got Lectio Divinia, you've got contemplative prayer. You know, some people get nervous if you use the word meditation. So in most cases, in circles, the idea of contemplative prayer is easier to understand. We do have a regular contemplative prayer group at the church that I have been attending. And that's something that, you know, I at 64 am the youngest participant. So there are groups of people who are interested in those disciplines, but then there are helpful tools that also assist. And some of them come out of other traditions. You know that the list of suggestions that I had gave you recently in a couple of posts some of it comes out of the Sufi tradition. A lot of poetry comes out of the contemplative tradition. Merton, you know, there are certainly Christian authors. John Duns Scotus, Merton would be in that tradition. And those sort of readings, those sort of podcasts, I find to be helpful sort of tools, but I don't consider them discipline.
So, in my more relaxed, quote, “quasi retired life”, you know, I'll garden out and I'll be working on stuff around the house or helping Virginia, and I can have a podcast going. And that is a form of a sort of walking meditation for me.
Seth Price 32:28
I agree. Yeah. So the times that I listen to podcasts. Well, I don't really listen to religious podcasts with intention. I don't want to have someone else's questions become mine. Because a lot of people are way smarter than me and I'll hear something and be like, yeah, I'm gonna start saying that, and then it quickly becomes disingenuous. So I don't do that. But I listen to a lot of finance podcasts. And I really like have you seen them the there's a show called it's got Rami Malik, Mr. Robot. I don't know if you've seen that before or not.
Jim Bono 33:01
I almost never get a chance to watch TV but I've seen trailers from Mr. Robot
Seth Price 33:06
So it's a decent show for a few seasons and it fell off the rails. I think they had a new showrunner but he has like a true crime podcast that someone's hired him and it's very well scripted. But he is the voice that you're hearing. Yeah, so that's one that he asked to recently so but yeah podcast I find hit a niche for me that I hear something. Although now Jim, I'm finding that when I'm listening to something that is unreligious related, I'll hear a truth in it and be like, Oh, that's like Jesus! Like I'm beginning to leach other things that I have like I like this. This can be applied. I'm pretty sure Paul says something like that are pretty sure that you know, that's also in numbers or whatever.
Jim Bono 33:46
Yes. Actually, if I can jump in. Krista Tippett's on being podcasts that I also recommend it. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Really, really good. And it's not directly religious usually, but oh my gosh, it does contain really fascinating nuggets of truth.
Seth Price 34:09
There was one that she did. I won't listen to a few of hers. There was one. What's his name? His last name, his height, hate his Haidt. He's like a psychologist. He taught at UVA. And now he's up I think up in New York, trying to think of his name, but they did one on I find that I'll send it to you. He did a TED talk as well basically talking about here's why our politics and here's why we argue everything basically in a binary way. Yeah, like here's how your brain actually distills truth. And then here's why that matters. Daniel is his name Daniel Haidt. I don't know how to say his name. Yeah, too many consonants. Too many consonants. That's good. But yeah, Krista’s is good. I like Krista. I would I would like to maybe maybe be like Krista but she's way more polished than I am.
Seth Price 35:25
What are some things religiously that you would hold that you think for you have a huge truth and a huge impact and affect the way that you do life and marriage and community. And you know, your willingness to do things like this that maybe middle America Bible Belt would listen to and hear that. Yeah, I don't understand how you could hold that Jim. And then break it further than that. Like, why? So there's a lot of ways that you could go with that, but I'm really more interested in the why and then I'd like to take that and go with okay, what happens if more people latch on to that what does it look like a few years from now? Like, if this changes humans what would that look like?
Jim Bono 36:11
Oh, boy, that is like the definition of an open question!
Seth Price 36:18
Right!
Jim Bono 36:19
(chuckle)
Remember, there was just a little bit ago on the site one of the participants said, asked a question, and they were asking for a definition and they gave four different choices. And the choices were kind of mutually exclusive without naming names do you remember that?
Seth Price 36:37
I do I feel like it was asking about like, is the Bible this or is Jesus this? Is that the one you're talking about?
Jim Bono 36:46
Is Jesus this, yes. Yeah, it was asking for sort of definitive religious positions about Jesus. And I explicitly did not respond. And in the first half of my life, I would have been all over that like a dog on a bone. But I think one of the things that I would say, or behave differently than, I’m trying to answer your question behave differently than the typical sort of Evangelical Church is, don't assume you're right. Don't assume that you know what, right actually is. And maybe we would do better to listen more and to accept more mystery. Because, and this is so different, because we want to be right. We we want to have it down. We want to be assured that we're on the right team. We want to be assured that our ticket is stamped. We want to have the right color team jersey. Well, you know, we have 30,000 brands of Christianity? That just seems nuts to me! I mean, are all of them right? Are none of them are right?
I mean, we spend so much energy over matters of theology, we're just like that political, you know, the diametric arguments in politics. It's the same problem. You know, it's like, pick the topic, the religious topic, it's controversial and people will polarize really, really quickly. And so what we've done is we've just really become fractionated. And we've become so focused on belief systems, that we don't have good practice. And we don't have behavior that matches any of the belief systems we purport to observe.
So the dilemma, and this is why I think flipping it, flipping the equation is really helpful. So being silent instead of talking when somebody else is sharing their truth with you. Being open to that truth trying to understand it from their view. Why service, in my mind, is more important than belief. Because, again, look at my history, you know, Assembly of God and Presbyterians really? Like is one of them right and the other wrong and what happens to the ones that are wrong is there no mercy there.
So if you go down those roads, you become more and more and more locked in the US that and just doubling down and doubling down and doubling down. And it doesn't allow for any outreach and any understanding of other people at a very basic human level. So I think people like Eboo Patel, who is Muslim here in Chicago, pretty sure was a MacArthur Genius Grant Award. He does interfaith services. He doesn't have interfaith dialogue. He has interfaith service. So Muslim kids and Christian kids will go to a really downtrodden neighborhood in Chicago, like Inglewood. They'll serve meals. After that, when they have hung out together for a while and realize that, you know, they're just, they're more likes and not that they aren't creeping each other out, that they have similarities etc.
So after the service together, then they talk. And they talk about that service is important in our tradition…oh mine too! So they find common ground by serving together. And I think that that service is really important because I think service makes a space for people to be together and recognize each other's humanity. And I think that we don't do that very well. And I think especially we don't do that very well in our churches. You know, Easter's coming up, the church that I'm affiliated with, will do like eight services, there will be music over the top, the higher solo list probably won't even break even. Why are we doing that for people who show up once a year? That’s just financially not. And we'll do that but we won't take that same amount of money that we've just paid on soloists air quotes here “entertainment”, and go to North Aurora and help build habitat houses, that's just backwards to me.
Seth Price 42:11
Do you think it's intentional? That church leadership is being trained and this is one of the questions that you referenced in one of our emails, you know, the seminary seemed to be churning out, I want to say it right. So at one point or another, we did like a what's called like, a Sunday Night Live at our church. And I will say, I know that my pastor is a minority amongst many. We basically talked about the hero's journey, and how basically, we all do that, like a lot of Joseph Campbell, you usually don't get that at any church, much less a Baptist Church. But it was, you know, small group of people 15-20 people intentionally wrestling with some really hard topics for like, you know, four or five, six weeks at a time.
Jim Bono 42:47
So good, so good.
Seth Price 42:48
And someone it asked him the question, you know, “well, if we can figure out how to you know, get over whatever this hump is, before we get to the next you know, dip that we were that were call to action for, like what is the purpose of the church” and he's like, “I don't know”, he's like, “there's a part of me that needs to keep the lights on. But there's another part of me that's like, I need you to stop coming to me to get filled. Like my job is to help you intentionally get to a place that you can communicate with God and grow without constantly having to be handheld. But I also know that that will require the membership of the church to change all the time and t is not financially feasible, and most people aren't comfortable with it.”
And I think there's a lot of truth in that, but I don't know how you fix it. Like I don't know how the institution would sign up for that?
Jim Bono 43:31
Actually, I have a super close friend who is a retired attorney. And we are actually trying to look at exactly that problem. Because over the course of like the last four years, at this particular church, I was asked to step in and fix the mission effort because it was just a hot mess. There was no financial oversight. There was no charter. People didn't know how to communicate. We didn't know why we were even involved in some missions and not there was no review process'; took 18 months got that fixed. My friend and I then did a survey the church assessment tool was the instrument we used to survey the whole congregation as part of developing a new sort of strategic vision. We developed that vision statement, we developed a new mission statement, we did an intensive demographic study of our community. Because of course, every church says, Well, we need to go out and attract new families really, there are four of them in a eight mile radius. So putting a focus on recruiting new families is pretty stupid for our particular congregation. So that doesn't make sense. So we did that.
And then we try to work that strategic plan with a couple of consultants and develop it. And then I got put on the finance committee and with another friend of mine and I we've developed a six year financial model for the church with a debt reduction plan, etc. So the mechanics, oh man, I understand the mechanics! But the dilemma is that are the lives transformed. And the guy who wrote the church assessment tool talks about a measure of engagement. Because if people are engaged, by however they measure that and there's a way to just respond to that on a qualitative scale, if that congregation is engaged everything else follows. Because if they're engaged, they'll study. If they're engaged they'll give. If they're engaged they'll serve.
So we need to figure out how to engage people, it is not acount of butts in seats and butts in the place. It's a measure of heart. And most churches aren't even looking at that! Most churches are really happy to just keep the lights on and to hope that the downward trends that are expressed by the Pew Memorial Trust, you know that that erosion isn't going to happen at their little church. But the Bishop of our ELCA Senate who just retired, said by 2025, he expects 20% of the churches and the Chicago Senate to close. So like, we better figure this out because what we're selling traditionally, people aren't buying. And I think people are really, really, really interested; they're just not interested in the same old package. They're not interested in stories of what they're…how do I, how do I say this? They're interested in something deeply meaningful. And sometimes that can be stories. But they're interested in not doctrine and not argument, but reality and service and the kinds of things that people lump under the word spirituality. They're more interested in spirituality than they are in religion. But we haven't taught that. And we often your guy (my pastor), as a remarkable exception, oh my gosh, The Hero's Journey, you know, that's brilliant. Because I think largely, that's what more people want at a deeper level.
Now, you know, I know lots of folks who come and show up on Sunday at our facility, and they're perfectly happy to walk in and shake, you know, 14 hands, throw 20 bucks in the plate or whatever, some people do tons more and go home. And it's really just sort of a social thing. And in my, like, nasty moments, I sometimes will say, “you know, what, our church is just the Kiwanis with the cross on top.
Seth Price 48:32
That needs to be on a shirt.
Jim Bono 48:35
That’s pretty offensive. So, so the other night, literally, I'm having this conversation with my friend, Bill, the attorney, and I literally draw an old fashioned, you know, a t-table, you know, an accounting t-table, you know, debits and credits, and I put the coladas on one side, and I put the church on the other. And I said, Okay, so what do you get from Kiwanis and the church, I get community, okay, fine. I can work with that. You get service, I can work with that. You can get some friendship, I can work with that. Okay, but then, you know, after about six or seven things that are similar in both environments. And of course, no, you don't have, you know, spiritual formation and Sunday school and stuff that then over on the church side, well, then you've got to believe our doctrine. And you've got to give us cash. And you've got to give us you know… So that other sort of things that you layer into, that our belief based around churches, actually, we put more requirements to belong to a church than we do to belong to the Kiwanis.
And that was an exercise that gave Bill and me a little pause. Because I thought, well, gosh, no wonder my son is really completely uninterested. Because, you know, he's a great guy is he's a very moral guy, but he doesn't see the church acting in a way that is really consistent with what it says its mission is. And I got to tell you, our church, it's a lovely place full of nice people. But here's a real time conversation being replayed between me and the senior pastor. Why are we sending our senior high kids to Haiti? Really! Like North Aurora isn't just eight miles away or other places aren't closer. You're buying airplane tickets, sending them to the Caribbean.
Okay, I understand there was an earthquake once upon a time, and we did send people and we did send money. And yes, there's still a massive need, but the amount of money that it takes to send our 25 kids to Haiti…okay so what is this really about? If we actually want to support Haiti, we would take that several thousand dollars. And we just send it to Haiti, we'd actually hire two carpenters for a year. And it would feed their family and do lots and lots of work.
And I pressed our person on this. And finally, in a moment of honesty, he said to me, “You got to understand for our parents they would rather write a check for a couple thousand dollars per kid and have it be the spring break experience, then actually spend time in because that will take emotional and time investment”. And I just had nothing to say.
Seth Price 51:52
That's heartbreaking.
Jim Bono 51:54
It's the truth. And it is heartbreaking! And our church is considered pretty good church, looks pretty shiny from the outside. But why are we doing what we're doing? And on the Finance Committee, I'm watching how and where we spend our money. Half of our money spent on staff. And when you include staff in the buildings that we have, we have to two sites, 80% of our budget is just on the building and on staff that's in the building. There are 97 churches in Naperville we are not under-resourced. How are we different than anybody else? How are we transforming lives? So that would be what we would say is, you know, supposed to be our vision. I'm kind of having trouble seeing it.
Seth Price 52:55
Yeah, why don't think it's just you. I think a lot of people are having trouble seeing it. I mean, churches closed shoot, there was a church that closed up in, you know, in my hometown here just a few weeks ago. They just closed and then another church move right in. Like a new church start up and I was like, well, that's good. Maybe we need another church in that building that all that goes in that building a church for a week, or a year.
Jim Bono 53:19
I mean, as you can't really repurpose them for anything except maybe a preschool.
Seth Price 53:24
Yeah. Well, this is something I think that used to be like a convenience, not convenience store, like I like a Kroger or, you know, grocery box. So I mean, it could literally be, I mean, the Salvation Army is right next to it, like it could be annexed and actually used to give away free things to people that need it. And instead, we put a church in it. Which, again, I'm sure that church is doing some great things, but I know, there's homeless people and I know there's people that need to eat. And, you know, I mean there's other things we could do with that. You're not the only person that's told me that about, you know, sending youth away or doing anything like that really like…
Jim Bono 53:56
Yeah, and see Seth, I think that this is really a question that we really, really, really desperately need to think about. Because like, you know, I'm in one space in my life and you're in another space in your life, your kids are young. And having them in a church, having those experiences during those formative years, I think are super important. But I think having them in an envelope that is really doing something and going in a direction. I think that the vision that a church has, is more important than we often think about. Because if the only differences are like on your statement of faith but it doesn't really show up on a Sunday, then there's not a lot of differences between what goes on in the different buildings (of churches in your town). And so and I think there are fewer and fewer people from the outside that are interested in that. And so we're missing the opportunity to be transformative in the world, which was the original purpose of the church, the way that I read stuff.
And how will we be transformative? Because I think we see two models. We see models where the typical church and the typical congregation continues to have attendance slide. And it's in some places circling the drain. And we have a lot of other folks who are doing, you know, like, (I) love Rob bell. I think he's brilliant, really, like, by far the majority of this work. Some of the RobCasts I think, are really, really great and fun and some are...”okay, well, that was a, you know, my topic today,” but Okay, that was good.
But the dilemma that I see with a world full of podcasts is how do you exchange how do you how do you prosecute social justice? I mean, you can talk about it. And Rob does a pretty good job. He really supports a group that drills wells in Africa. And that's a big deal and they do this big annual thing. And that's wonderful. But how do you link 40 podcasts together to say, we need to fix our immigration policy, or we need to fix how we look at divisions of race, or class or or income inequality? I don't see an easy way to do that.
So I think the question of what is that next model for the church in the West is a desperately important question. Because the seminaries are way behind, because the seminaries are managed by the denominations, the denominations own the color and cut of the team jersey. That's not where the change will happen. If anything, that change will be retarded, especially at a denominational level. And sometimes the individual faculty can scoot around that. But a whole seminary really can't. So I don't quite know what that next model is going to be. But it's something I'm deeply interested in.
Seth Price 57:27
I am as well. But mostly because, well, I want to be careful how I say, so I get a lot out of my church. I love my church, but I often feel like I'm participating in church in some of the discussions that I have like this, or some of the discussions…like I'll have, you know, private messages or private phone conversations with other listeners. And sometimes that's a group conversation and that is just as much an impactful community and I grow and I learn and I, you know, we pray together. Just as with any church services, so I don't know what the future of the church looks like but I know it's not that brick building. I know there's a place to meet. And there's got to be something like that to come together and celebrate and love on each other intentionally with people that you don't normally see. But I don't think it's a bunch of people come into one place for one hour to be as you said, entertained. For me, the church has to be and I'm going to borrow this from one of the first episodes that I recorded, like Sean Palmer, I think as you said, he's like, in church needs to be these this five mile radius here, you know, in Chicago, or you know, Waynesboro, Virginia, these are people and so if they're hungry, if they have school debt, if their gutters fall off, I got you. I don't even care if you go to the church. I don't even care if you speak English. I got you. Because that's what we should do. I don't know how you pay for that. I don't know how you pay for that, how you organize it. And even once you figure that out, I don't how you I don't know how you don't become the next institution. But it's worth it’s worth wrestling with.
Jim Bono 59:02
I agree completely. It's worth wrestling with. And I think that you do that on a bit by bit basis. I don't think that the stretch is that far. I don't think we have to like blow up things to actually get there. There's a big church in Oakbrook called Christ Church Oakbrook. My friend, Bill and I were sitting at a local Starbucks and this big burly guy walks up to us and says, “Hi, I'm the administrative pastor of Christ Church Oakbrook, and sorry that I've been eavesdropping on your conversation, and it's fascinating.” And so we got into a three way conversation. They are very mindful about extending their church I was almost gonna say extending their brand…Oh, was that a little Freudian into Downers Grove. The town of Downers Grove. They're doing it in an industrial park they're renting space. They're renting a beautiful Auditorium in a wonderful corporate office that has like a three story atrium that looks out on the lake. Brilliant, beautiful. They rented on Sunday and everything else in small groups.
Seth Price 1:00:24
Yeah, just community.
Jim Bono 1:00:25
Yeah. In that what they've done is there's no capital, there's no overhead. There's no debt service. You know, they setup on Sunday, they break down on Sunday. And what they do, assuming that that's a viable model, is all the energy, all that money, all that engagement can be into the community, into the members, and into the community beyond the members. So I think without blowing things up, we can make those incremental moves.
Seth Price 1:01:02
I hope we do.
I want to end with this question, Jim. So give me two or three things that you're reading that as people listen, they're like, you know what? Yeah, I should go out and grab that book. Like, what are some things that are influencing what you're intaking now?
Jim Bono 1:01:18
Okay, well, there's a Universal Christ. I just flipped around at my desk and happened to pick it up, because of course, I just finished it. And I will probably read it again.
Seth Price 1:01:27
Is it good? I haven't read it. I bought it. I haven't read it.
Jim Bono 1:01:30
Ah……yes!
Seth Price 1:01:34
Just yes…?
Jim Bono 1:01:34
Do you get the emphatic nature of that response, dude, yes! Read this book. It's really, really different. It will take time. People can read this book one or two ways they can read it with their head or they can read it with the rest of their being. Now, I would suggest you read it with your head as a filter, because of course you need to, like, these are words I need to process them. But don't read the book, let the book read to you.
It's just really good. And then of course, I've got Heart and Mind right here next to it. And I just finished it. And what I like about this the most is the very last part because it's all about practice. Because, again, the church, the contemporary church, spends a lot of time on beliefs. And we need that, we need to have some basic beliefs, this is good, but we don't hardly spend any time on practice. And so we spend all our time arguing about our orthodoxy and orthopraxy. Well, I really, really like the fact that Alexander ends his book with practices, and some of them are contemplative. So those are two things I'm reading.
Seth Price 1:03:10
I haven't read the Universal Christ intentionally, because I plan to talk with Matthew Fox, about the universal Christ and a few other people. And again, I want to make sure I keep them siloed I have yet to be able to get Richard though..
Jim Bono 1:03:22
Matthew is on the other side of my bed. Matthew Fox and Lama Tsomo. His book, The Lotus & The Rose: A Conversation Between Tibetan Buddhism & Mystical Christianity. Matthew, I think you'll have a very enjoyable conversation.
Seth Price 1:03:45
I hope so. Good. Well, Jim, thank you so much for coming on.
Jim Bono 1:03:50
Yeah. You're welcome.
Seth Price 1:04:21
One of the biggest things that I've taken away as I've listened back to this is we have to make room for there to be nuance with each other, both interfaith and intrafaith. We have to be willing to let others hold truth in a different way than we have. And if there's anything that I really have taken heart to, or taken home, is I don't need to be the first person that talks-I need to let there be silence and let others speak into that silence and I'll probably learn something. And I can't wait to see what it is that I will learn. But I know that both I and the other person, wherever they happen to be at whatever time that we're having a conversation, we'll both grow as we can both learn to control our impulses to just have to be right.
I'm so blown away by the stories of everyone that I talked to. And it's a privilege to be able to do this. So today's music is from Dave Pettigrew. You can find more information about Dave at DavePettigrew.net. But I wanted to take a bit of time. So Dave sponsors something called Holt International. At the end of this, just go down to the bottom, click on the show notes, see if it's something that interests you; if it is fantastic, if not, maybe send it to somebody else.
I really look forward to talking with you all next week. Have a good one.