Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Vince 0:00
Because even the terms we use right Heaven, Hell, God, Christian like all of us so much of these terms that we use are actually European kind of pre Christian pagan terms that we've now kind of, you know, put in there. And so you know, as just another way of kind of decolonizing and owning the faith of Yeshua, as it as a person of African descent. I like to do that. But yeah, but missionally as a Nazarawi, or Christian, myself, who has a deep still has a deep passion for people to know Yeshua as Lord and Savior, that I really do think, as you said that, that this idea of Christianity being this Western religion, that's the biggest obstacle of the gospel. Because when Christianity is associated with one particular culture, with Western white culture, then the logical kind of consequence of that is that anybody who doesn't fit that cultural identity, that geo-cultural community of Western or white, will feel like “Well, that's not an option for me.” So it's a non-starter at the gate.
Seth 1:07
Everybody, welcome to the middle of February. I am Seth, this is the Can I Say This At Church podcast. I'm very happy that you're here. And I'm really excited for this episode. I say this every week, and I still mean it. So there are now 51. As of recording this on the middle of February, patrons, supporters of the show my goal would be to end the year at 100. And so if you are getting anything at all, from this free podcast, consider hitting the button over at the website or@ patreon.com/CaniSayThisAtChurch become a contributor, the show literally $1 a month. While for many, many people is an afterthought, cumulatively for the amount of people that listen to this show is entirely changing the whole dynamic of the show. Do that for me, if you would.
Some of the other things that I've done on Patreon: so if you don't know this, every Patreon supporter of any level does get a discount off anything in the store for some of the merchandise of the show; by request of some of the supporters, so that is there. And if for some reason you did not get that email or that Patreon supporter code, shoot me a message over there on Patreon, and I'll send it back to you. And we will make that go.
Speaking of the store, I've recently found finally a women's shirt that matches and fits a little better than some unisex version of a shirt that doesn't really it's not really built for a man not really built for a woman. And so those are there. I'm slowly but surely adding in more things. So keep checking back. And if you see something you like, or if there's something that you want specifically, let me know. And I'll make sure that we make it.
A few weeks ago actually on Martin Luther King Day, I had two conversations. And so this is the first one. And then I think next week will be the next one. The first conversation was with Dr. Vince Bantu and in it we talked a lot about the early, cultural, history and significance of the church and why that should matter for us today. There's so much I don't know. We barely, very barely, like if, like if our fingernail or our arm is the history of the church. We rubbed off like a millimeter of our fingernail in today's conversation.
Oh, one small aside, editor's note, I apologize. Then we'll hit go. There is it sounds like either Dr. Bantu it sounds like either Vince is really excited and his sneakers keep squeaking on the basketball court but we didn't record this in a basketball court. or his fire alarm, smoke alarm detector, the battery's going dead. And so you'll hear that happened a few times.
Funny story. I actually walked through my house as I was editing this wondering which one of my smoke detectors was going bad because I swore I just changed the batteries a few months ago. So you will hear that…do not lose your mind. It is most likely on the show. I edited out the ones that I could, but I could not get them all. And so I wanted that to be the last thing that you heard before we start the show so that you didn't pause it and go what is happening to my house?! Why are smoke detectors going off? Now on the show.
Seth 4:30
Dr. Vince Bantu thank you so much for coming onto the show. I'm excited to talk with you and also if you're listening and you're probably not Professor Rah thank you so much for pointing in the direction of Dr. Bantu. I've enjoyed what I've learned from you so far in the last 60-85 days or something like that. So welcome to the show, man.
Vince 4:50
Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.
Seth 4:53
I was unfamiliar with you. Matter of fact, when Professor Rah told me your name, I was like timeout. Spell it for me, please. It also didn't help that he didn't have the strongest connection and so it was hard to hear him. Hold on. I forgot to hit record. Let me there we go. I promised I would retry to record all these. (I’m speaking of recording the video for the Patreon supporters) There we go. We made it.
Um, yeah, it's out of habit, you're only the third one that'll be recorded. So way out of the habit. So, yeah, so kind of Who are you? What's your background, your upbringing, kind of what is the story of Vince?
Vince 5:26
Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm born and raised in St. Louis, Missouri. And that's kind of my stomping grounds. And I was born to a biracial family, black and white, my father's African American, my mom's white. Everybody's from St. Louis, you know, going back generations.
I, you know, grew up, you know, initially actually in a single parent household and my mother was actually the first Christian in the history of our family and she shared the gospel with me and I became a follower of Jesus when I was really young and had a passion for evangelism and sharing the gospel at a very young age. And, you know, I grew up in, you know, St. Louis is an extremely racially segregated city. And, you know, growing up in a, kind of a multi-racial household and as a young Christian, I was always thinking about issues of faith and culture and identity and how those things go together. And, you know, it was interesting, I grew up in a, in a black neighborhood, but I grew up in a white church and kind of just, you know, associated like, my own self and cultural identity in one direction, but my faith in another. I remember trying to bring a lot of my friends in my neighborhood to church, and, you know, they were they didn't want to go and I didn't understand why at first and then it kind of hit me later and, and so I think that really put a passion in me for kind of continuing with evangelism but especially contextual evangelism; and really providing a place of worship and discipleship, that's, that's relevant and, and empowering for people as God has made them.
And so that kind of has taken me on a whole journey, you know, into going to college in order to study theology and kind of be prepared for ministry, and then going to seminary and that I kind of got the bug for for academics and, and specifically for, you know, kind of early Christianity in Africa, and again, just kind of with that interest of faith and culture and identity. You know, really, when I got when I first became introduced to, you know, the early history of Christianity, in Africa and Asia and other places, I just got smitten with it and, you know, ended up feeling led to go do my PhD in that area. Really kind of teach and write and really just kind of just, you know, kind of pick a spot in that area for the rest of my life and just try to really explore it more and share it more. But you know, kind of in that same passion of helping people understand the wide cultural breadth of Christian life and practice and the way that the gospel is revealed especially just from the origins I kind of from the beginning of it.
I think, and that really gets me because it was a big thing in the black community is what regardless of today, how people might try to express Christianity in different ways. A big question or concern is the origins where did it come from? This idea that even if you try to take it in another direction now, it's still changed from this? So for me, I like to get at, well, let's look at that. And, what did it What did it come from or what was it like from the origins?
Seth 8:48
I had a prior guests and we'll get there because actually, this is a question I wanted to ask you. And I hope that you know the answer. If not, I'm going to edit it out. Or maybe I'll leave it, why not? Um, I really like that you use the word smitten, I think that's the first time in years that I've heard that used and I forgotten that it was a thing and I kind of like it.
(laughter both)
I've never thought about being smitten with academics. I like that. I'm curious. So what was the faith, or what is the faith, of your family prior to your mom? Like, what does that still look like now?
Vince 9:19
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, you know, as I mentioned I'm from St. Louis and, and all my relatives are as well. And, I think, you know, a lot of my, all of my grandparents and, and, you know, most most of my relatives, it's kind of just a, like a nominal kind of Americanized, I would say pseudo Christianity or you know, like, you know, it's a maybe kind of yet pseudo Christian but essentially, like kind of Americana religious identity. You know, kind of American identity that has like Christian terminology, kind of put on it a little bit for dressing.
So if you ask people like what, you know, what is your faith? My family the, you know, like, I mean Bible Belt, Missouri, black and white side, nobody's gonna say like, “Oh, I'm an atheist or I'm a, you know, I'm a Buddhist or Hindu or I a decided member of another faith or or I renounce god”. They will say “yeah I believe in God I believe in Jesus I'm a Christian”. Yeah, but, you know, go to church like once every few years and kind of you know, like just do their own thing, kind of a thing. And yeah, as I mentioned, my mom was really the first person that, you know, actually when she was young, really, you know, actually had a vision of Jesus calling out to her and began to really walk with Jesus in a really serious way. And, and then kind of, you know, shared that with me as well when I was a young boy.
Seth 10:47
So when I hear you describe that level of Christianity, I'm reminded of and I forget who said it, I think it was my prior pastor. He used to say, you know, we got to make sure we're welcoming for the CEO Christians (Christmas) church and Easter only you make sure that we're welcoming for the CEO Christians because honestly, they, they come in and and they're equally important this week.
So, which I know sounds sounds bad. And that also makes me think of every time it ices or storms. My current pastor would be like, you know, this is always my favorite time we get to, you know, we get to he jokingly says, you know, we get to separate the sheep from the goats. Because the church almost closed and you all are still here. (laughter both)
So you talked about you were trying to bring your friends to church and they were like, Nope, not having it Vince, don't bring me again. Why? What was broken for them or what was maybe incorrect in your church or incorrect the wrong word, because I'm not sure that that's applicable. But you know what, I mean, kind of why did that not work?
Vince 11:47
Yeah, I mean, again, that's, you know, St. Louis is a weird place. I mean, it's is like I said, I I think it's the most of the opposite certifications issue across the country. But, I mean, now that I mean, I'm in Houston now. And it's just such a patchwork and most diverse city in America…
Seth 12:06
Really?
Vince 12:07
Yeah, I know, right. I didn't know that.
Seth 12:07
I mean I would have thought like New York or Chicago or something like that.
Vince 12:10
Me too. Yeah. But I mean, apparently Houston is number one. I mean, it's got industry just bringing so many different people and, and you know, and it's not like New York or LA where there are these ethnic neighborhoods but Houston is just like, like, like, just everywhere. You know, everybody everywhere.
But St. Louis is like, it's not diverse. It's black, white, binary. That's it. And it's just it's dramatically segregated in am oppressive way. Literally, there's a street that cuts through the entire city, one street and everything on that side of that street is black and everything on that side of that street is white it's so consistent. I mean, you go north of that street, or you even just drive down that street and everything on the right of you is a predatory check cashing loan place or like a you know, Chop Suey place with bulletproof windows. And you know, like, you know, you get your food through sliding glass and dilapidated homes. And you look on the left, and it's like Pet Grooming places and yoga studios and coffee shops and, you know, luxury condos and it's just this.
Again, I grew up about a mile north of that line on the black side. And then I went to church about a mile south of that line. And so the church wasn't that far away from my home. And actually, the church had a kind of a urban ministry, it was kind of like coming in and this is back, you know, the 80s, where it's like, come into the hood and reach out to people bring kids to church and take them out to the woods or take them on a camping trip or VBS or, and I was, you know, kind of grew in that church and was discipled. And again, great people who loved the Lord and and loved me and my family and supported us in a great way.
And but I would just say I think the relative kind of not really having thought through issues of identity and culture and how that intersects with faith. Nobody ever told me, ”hey, if you want to be a good Christian, you need to act white”. Nobody ever said that. But yet at the same time, they did in many, many ways indirectly. So, so I just kind of always grew up again, not seeing people who looked like me from like an urban, you know, kind of hip hop, very gritty kind of context. I didn't see people like that, following Jesus.
The people that I saw that looked and talked and acted like the were not following Jesus. And not to say that everyone who's white was but the people who I knew and the people that I was seeing, who follow Jesus were so I was coming, internalize that, that that's what I need to do. If I'm going to really be a serious follower of Jesus. And especially when I felt called to ministry, I kind of went through this whole cultural transformation where I felt like okay, well I'm gonna go into ministry and I'm gonna I always had this sense that growing up in my neighborhood and you know where my FUBU and my Kangol hats; I'm dating myself a little bit but…
Seth 15:14
I thought you were gonna say JNCOS? Why not? (laughter)
Vince 15:16
Yeah, yes right. And you know, the Girbauds and you know and just
Seth 15:22
MFG Girbaud. I haven't thought about that long in a long long time.
Vince 15:26
I know right. Oh man I miss it. I've definitely I told my wife I know I'm old now because I don't even like skinny jeans I can't do it, there's no way but but yeah, I just I was always kind of grew up thinking all of that everything about it was was bad was wrong. And so when I feel called to ministers, I have to reject this I have to totally reject it.
And so when I would bring other friends you know, I remember I had you know, my homie like D and my, you know, my dude Derbo and everybody I would try to bring you know, to church. Sometimes they would come and then there's like, this is, you know, I've me we had, you know, just the, all the temporary, you know, Christian music singing about, you know, hills and rivers and valleys and deers. Just la la la like, you know, and you know, again, just the everything about it just didn't speak to the cultural context.
So again the message that was indirectly being communicated is that there is not only a spiritual conversion, but a cultural conversion. And unlike me, many of my friends were saying, I don't want to give up who I am. I don't want to reject that. Whereas I just kind of said, well, I guess I kind of have to, and so some of them had even looked at me and, you know, kind of saw me as like, you know, I was a sellout or I was walking away from who I was.
I mean, some of them even told me that especially when I kind of went through this conversion when I was like 17, the year before. college and I started like, you know again my I started like dressing different and and really trying. I was getting ready to go to this white evangelical college and I really wanted to look and dress the part to fit in and but for me it wasn't because I liked it or was wasn't because I, you know, it was like, yeah, it was really into I wasn't even internalizes like a, I want to be white because I'm ashamed of who I am and who and how I look.
But it was more like I associated with this is what it means to be a Christian. This is my commitment to God is about. And I would I would look at others that will you just must not want to be like you just don’t want to follow God.
Seth 17:38
You referenced culture. You referenced the church, and referenced whiteness. And so I want to quote something back that I heard you say in the talk, I don't know when the talk was because whatever I was listening to it in the car, so I wasn't taking notes. But I did hit pause and memo what you'd said and so you say in the talk “that the greatest threat to the spreading of the gospel in the church, I'm sorry, is the culture of dang it is is the culture association of whiteness and the church” or something like that there's something to that effect. And then you also just alluded to, you know, you having to sell out or this type of stuff like so what is like, what do you mean when you say that the biggest threats of the gospel today is the church, the whiteness of the church? Like I don't even understand what that means. And I'm aware of how ignorant that question is. But that's kind of the whole point of this show. I'm usually the most ignorant person in the room.
Vince 18:32
Oh, no, no, no, I think that's a great question. And well, and actually, you mentioned the, you know, the brother who connected us, you know, my dear, my dear friend and mentor and spiritual father, Dr Soong Chan Rah and, you know, he taught, Dr. Rah, talks a lot about I mean, I kind of saw his wording. I think it's really helpful when he talks about the western white cultural captivity in the church. And this idea that I you know, again, that I kind of grew up under. This association that that Christianity is in and of itself, you know, essentially a white Western thing. I mean, you know, you know, anthropologists and sociologists, they talk about things like cultural products and, or, you know, objectivations or ethnic boundaries or whatever. Most cultures have stuff or produce things that are kind of laced with their internalized values and these, you know, kind of highly signified rites of passage and, and, or, rituals or actions that are highly symbolic and our and our markers of a particular community.
So, I mean, perfect example is like, you know, a Bar Mitzvah or Bat Mitzvah, right, that's, that's, that's a Jewish thing, right? So, unless you're Jewish, you don't have a Bar Mitzvah or Bat Mitzvah and if you're not Jewish, and if I were to ask you, why haven't you had a Bar Mitzvah? You would probably say, because I'm not Jewish. And that's not something that I do because I belong to this other group. And that's a thing that belongs to that group. And so you only do that if you're in that group, or if you have a Quiensineta, that belongs to a particular group. And so that is how most things are, that's how most societies work. That's how, you know most cultures work, you know. We can say the N word, and nobody else can. That's just just how it works.
I think that most people see Christianity religion works that way. I mean, Hinduism is connected to a particular culture, Islam is connected to a particular geographical, linguistic culture. And, you know, Navajo, Hawaiian, Aboriginal like most tribes have their own religion, their own creation story, their own gods, their own, kind of you know, I mean, Shinto is connected Japan, like most religions are connected to a particular culture and region of people where God or their idea of the Divine is intricately connected to their identity as a tribe and as a people and the land that they live on.
And so, like most religions, people associate Christianity as being yet another regional, or tribal religion, that is that is connected to people, white people, Western people. And I mean, when you look at the history of Europe, the expression of Christianity that kind of gave rise to European nations from like the 5th up until like, the 10th centuries, that Westernized and Romanized Christianity was very much at the ethnogenesis of, you know, most Western European nations.
And so, then that went out and kind of spread all throughout the world through colonialism and globalization. So it makes sense why people think that Christianity is…most people who are not Western, their introduction to Christianity was through that Western-colonial expansionistic process. So it makes a lot of sense why people think that Christianity is interlaced, and is just completely inseparable with Western identity and white identity. But it's not, it’s not a Western white religion, but that's what people think it is!
And when I say like, as a Christian myself, or as a Nazarawi, I like to use the Ethiopian term for that; because even the terms we use right Heaven, Hell, God, Christian like all of us so much of these terms that we use are actually European kind of, you know, pre-Christian pagan terms that we've now kind of, you know, put in there. And so you know, as, as just another way of kind of decolonizing and owning the faith of Yeshua as as a person of African descent. I like to do that but but yeah, but missionally as a Nazarawi, or Christian, myself who still has a deep passion for people to know Yeshua as Lord and Savior. I really do think as you said that this idea of freedom Identity being this Western right religion. That it is the biggest obstacles of spreading the gospel. Because when Christianity is associated with one particular culture, with Western white culture, then the logical kind of, consequence of that is that anybody who doesn't fit that cultural identity, that geocultural, you know, community of Western or white will feel like well, that's not an option for me.
So it's a non starter at the gate. And it doesn't matter if you're in the Middle East or in Asia, East Asia, Southeast Asia, South Asia, Africa, you know, the Americas among indigenous people or Pacific Islands. When you get to talk about Jesus, there's even before we talk about who Jesus said he is and what he said he came to do and to bring and to be for people. It's already a non starter because Christianity, as a system, is inherently a you know, not an option for my people. That's athing for those people and not for my people. And we have like 500 years of, again, colonialistic history that just builds that wall higher and higher.
Seth 24:11
So I want to take that colonialistic history and set it aside. Because I had two thoughts this morning while I was thinking about this conversation, and so one is kind of your opinion on when people are like, yeah, you know, my Jesus is a black Jesus, or my Jesus is a Japanese Jesus, or my Jesus is a black woman, or my Jesus is “XYZ”, where people will take Jesus and that will remove the white Jesus that has been in the paintings off the wall and replace it with someone from their culture. Which I think I'm alright with. Because the whole point is, is Jesus is not white. But also the whole point there is Jesus accepts this what however I was born, this is entirely wholly and entirely fine. Are you good with people doing that with Jesus in that way?
Vince 24:57
I'm definitely good with it. I mean, I remember the first time I saw like a picture of an Asian looking Jesus, like East Asian looking Jesus when I was in Thailand at a at a missionary building and I was like Wow, that's really cool. And then now just you know, kind of recently seeing this painting of you know, that's from like, you know, nine hundreds China, it was found in a in a Buddhist cave and alot of people think it was definitely a Christian drawing a lot of people think it was Jesus and again drawing with Asian features as I like, Oh, that's really cool.
And I mean, I think that that is a helpful thing. And I've seen many, you know, black Jesus with dreads and I think it can be a helpful thing. I mean, I think that for me, at least the the the only reminder that I would encourage people as as we depict Jesus in different ways to artistically represent that that Jesus is for everybody. Which is an idea and a truth that deeply committed to people knowing.
And so I think artistically if that helps to communicate that I think that that's great. I think the only thing I would ask people to bear in mind is that that Jesus was a historical person who lived, you know, in the Levant in Palestine, you know, 2000 years ago, and that he was a brown skin, Hebrew, and from Nazareth, and a historical person. And that he is the way truth and the life and that he is God or, you know, the creator, the divine, he is the almighty incarnate and was an actual person who was actually born lived and died and rose again. And that that person who lived from Nazareth was a was a brown skinned person.
And you know, that he's not just an idea or he's not just a fable or a myth or a thing that I can kind of recreate but but that that the Holy Spirit testifies to him, which is poured out upon all flesh and speaks to all people. As it's recorded in you in Holy Scripture also testifies in agreement with the Holy Spirit about who Jesus is. And so, you know, I just I think long as, for me, at least as long as we are also based in the divine status of the, the word of the Holy Spirit and the word of Scripture as how those things testify about who Jesus is, then I think that you know, having that understanding that it can still be helpful though to say that I you know, when I paint Jesus this way, I'm not trying to make a historical claim necessarily about knowing what he looks like. Because we know that people in Palestine, even to this day, can look like a lot of different ranges and it's really unlikely the least likely one does that get blond hair blue eyes. He could have been Black he could have been, you know, brown, he could have been—he probably was on some spectrum of the brown family. You know, but even to draw him looking like Asian or Native America or you know, like, like you said, like a black woman. I think it's as an artistic statement of saying that Jesus relates to me, and speaks to me in my context. But keeping that historical Jesus of mine would be my only thought.
Seth 28:07
So when I think about like church history, and so this is why I still want to set aside you know, westernized, hellenized, Plato-ized Greek logic-ized, those are not real words, but you know what I mean? Set aside all that. So I heard you say, you know, right, you know, around the time of Jesus, like these early Western church fathers, they're still worshipping like Norse gods, like it's still Thor and that type of stuff. And I don't feel like most people think about that, because when you said that, I was like, yeah, we hadn't, hasn't. Okay hasn't made it that far yet.
So what is kind of that early history of the church, you know, in and around that region of the planet? Like, how did it get…how has it grown there apart from the westernized church, like, kind of what does that look like the history of it, how is it impacted the way that we do church and we're not even aware of it?
Vince 28:59
Yeah. I would say that to quickly respond to the last part of the question. I would say, sadly, I don't actually think that there is a whole lot of ways that the spread of the early church in like Africa and Asia has really affected the way that we do church. If we are defining the dominant kind of Western, you know, expressions of Christianity. I think not to throw shade, you know, but, you know, a lot of times when people get interested in early Christianity in Africa, they'll, you know, they'll ask me, you know, how has it affected the western church? How has what was the western church been really laid, the foundation been laid, by Africans or Asian in my Bible, it really isn't.
And, you know, I think that even the theologians like Augustine and Tertullian and Origen and Athanasius who were from the continent that we now call Africa, we're extremely Hellenized and Romanized people in their mentality in their, in their rhetoric in their writing and their educational background. And so even though they might be from the continent known as Africa today, and we're certainly not white men, they were certainly, brown skinned men, like North Africans are. Culturally, they were very, very hellenized. And that is the reason why they were embraced later by Western Christianity because they were part of it all.
So like, at the beginning of Christianity, Yeshua reveals himself in Jerusalem and Palestine, in Galilee and in Jerusalem in a region is part of Asia, but it is at the crux, or at the nexus, of so much of the known world. Right at the right at the bridge of Africa, you know, the Middle East, Asia, and Europe. And while technically in the Roman Empire is actually culturally Semitic and much more related to you know, Syrian and Aramaic people. Most of whom were not politically in the Roman Empire, but we're in the Persian Empire, or independent Arabian empires in the Arabian Peninsula.
But of course, the Hebrews were in every nation. Acts 2 two shows us that you had all Hebrews from all over the known world from Africa, Asia, and Europe, who came and the Holy Spirit was poured out, and they went out in every direction. And so, at the very beginning of Christianity, Christianity like we were talking about this idea of cultural products, or, you know, and the ancient world was no different.
I mean, gods were located to a particular region or particular city like in Egypt, the gods of Thebes and Carnac and Alexandria. And same thing in a Syria and Persia, the gods that were the local gods of that kingdom or that city or that river or that mountain. And so again, now you're saying, there's this group called Christians who are worshiping Jesus who was the king of kings. He's the God of all Gods, for all people in all places.
And God, in His providence chose the Hebrew people who are already through migration and exile and spread and movement had already been embedded in almost every culture on Earth. Hebrews were in Persia. They were in Babylon. They were in India. Jews were in Southwestern India. So it makes a lot of sense that there were Christians there at an early age and claim that Thomas came there. Whether Thomas came there or not, we don't know. But there were certainly Jewish people that traveled across the Indian Ocean into Southwestern India. And we have hardcore evidence that there were Christians there as no later than the 200s.
And then in Ethiopia, Nubia, Elephantine in Egypt, and in Greece and Italy, in Spain, in North Africa, Carthage and Libya. There were Hebrew people all over. So you know, God says that salvation is going to be revealed to the Hebrew to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. But again, even those Jews who are gathered at Pentecost were Jews from every nation.
And so they went out to those nations and began to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ being Lord Savior, and then the non Jewish neighbors in Africa in Asia, and Europe began to become Christian and it was not associated with any particular culture. And if there ever was going to be a culture that it would have been associated with it would have been the Jews right? It would have been “Oh, this is a Jewish religion”.
But the New Testament itself from Matthew to Revelation is saying no, this is not just for Jewish people and Acts 13 is saying No, you are not going to turn these new Gentile Christians into Jewish people. No, they're going to be their own! They're going to do their own thing! And John talks about Jesus as the logos as a conceptualization so that people are going to continue to be who they are. And you know, Revelation seven nine shows that eschatological vision of a heavenly multitude of every people, nation, tribe and tongue, we are united in Christ, but our ethnic and cultural distinctions still remain and are still there.
And that was what was continuing that Biblical vision was conceived was what's happening. And we see it through history that again, as I mentioned, you have Christianity in India, no later than 200s. You have Christianity in China in the 600s, where it's not even called Christianity. It's called the Xing Zhao and which means the luminous way or the luminous religion, in Chinese.
You have it in Central Asia among the Sogdians and the Uyghurs and the Turks already in the, Hephthalites in the 500, 600, and 700s. Christianity reaches Egypt and then into Nubia; which is an independent outside of the Roman Empire, African kingdom and Ethiopia and as well as Arabia. So Armenia is the first Christian nation as well as Georgia. The Persian Empire in the days of early Christianity, the Persian Empire was kind of the other major Empire alongside the Roman Empire, but why? There were just as many Christians in the Persian Empire as there was in the Roman Empire!
But to your point of like, kind of not always looking at the Western. When we talk about the early church, and when you read church history books, and they talk about “the history of the church”, they're really talking about the Western Church and they're not and they're kind of doing it in a totalizing way where it's like the history of the Western church is the history of THE CHURCH. And it often does exclude this whole history, but the irony is that in the first few years Centuries of the church before became seen as this Roman thing under Constantine. There were actually just as many Christians in the Persian Empire, as the Roman and in fact, it was actually safer to be a Christian in the Persian Empire than in the Roman Empire.
Seth 35:15
Why?
Vince 35:16
Because the Roman Empire was killing Christians. There were murdering Christians under Septimus Severus and Decius and Diocletian they were throwing Christians in the Coliseum throwing them to the lions and and they were trying to stamp it out. Not because they had anything against Christianity, but because they had a really big thing for Romanatas and Roman identity.
So, you know, they'd have been fine if [Christians in] the Roman Empire would have been fine if they if the Christians would have just prayed to, you know, to the Roman gods and to Jesus, because that's what other people that they colonize did. When they colonized Egypt, the Egyptians, or Syrians or whoever else, they said, “Yeah, you can still pray to your God, just pray to our gods too”. So you can even combine Sarapis with Isis or whatever. But the Christians are saying no, we worship only Jesus and the Romans were like, well, that's a threat to our national identity, right? And we need to make Rome Great Again so you are going to pray to our gods. So they were persecuted.
But in the Persian Empire, Christians were free to worship. In fact, some Roman Christians went to the Persian Empire and had an easier time there. So in the 200s, it was actually safer to be a Christian in what is now Iran and Iraq and Afghanistan. That was actually the, you know people call that the 10-40 Window, but that was actually the “reached places” and Italy and Greece and Spain where the “unreached” people throughout that time period.
Seth 36:47
What are some of the early church fathers in that early church that aren't Western? And what…I want to say contributions that's not the right word, like, as I remember the first time I read about Athanasius and I was studying a lot about the like the Eastern Orthodox Church and I was like all this is beautiful, like way more mystical; way more like less binary, less dogmatic and more like, yeah, we worship a God that literally spoken into being the universe also spoke you and is still existing outside of the universe that continues to stretch infinitely.
And now let's talk about that in a way that our words can somehow figure out. How funny is that? So as I would read some of those early church writings, I'm like, Oh, this is beautiful. So in a similar vein, like what are some of those early, you know, Coptic and Ethiopian and Nubian what are some of those early church fathers and mothers? What do they offer that we've lost? Hmm.
Vince 37:45
Hmm.
Yeah, I think that's a great question. I mean, yeah, there's just so much.
I mean, there's literary genres, that that only exists in certain languages and that are uniquely Christian. I think a great resource to start with is the Syriac theologians and church fathers and mothers who wrote in the Syriac language. Again, I think it's great to look at the Greek speaking theologians that were from that area that offer like you, like you said, a really different approach. But I really always just got to give a lot of emphasis to the theologians that wrote in other languages, other than Greek or Latin, because they, I mean, it's so sad because it's to the point to where a lot of their works haven't even been translated into English. So people, like people, can't to them and read it. Whereas like a lot of the Greek and Latin I mean, almost every Greek and Latin or father, you could just go online right now read their stuff because it's been translated.
But there's, I mean, you know, I think about someone like Giyorgis of Segla, who is one of the prolific Ethiopian, African, theologians who wrote in the 12 and 1300s and he wrote an entire systematic theological treatise. Again a Black African Theologian who wrote again genres of literature, I mean Ethiopian’s had genres called Dersan, that were these poetic and theological compositions and it's a literary genre that is unique to the European context. You had entire systems of philosophy known as teenagers in writers like zaria code you know, and that's you know, in the Ethiopian context. But when you look at Syrian authors like Aphrahat who wrote The Demonstrations in the early 300s and Ephrem the Syrian who is probably one of the best resources I think. You mentioned talking about that mystical and talking about the value of a lot of these communities; I think Ephrem the Syrian is one of the best examples of what you were talking about, about this approach to theology that really respects the ultimate unknowability of God, and mystery of God.
And, you know, Ephrem writes a lot about (that) and he's writing in the 300s, at the same time that you have some of the most prolific early Roman theologians at that same time, the Cappadocians or John Chrysostom and people like that in the West, and then a little bit later, Augustine. But Ephrem is at the same time but coming from coming from the Syriac speaking place of Edessa in modern day Turkey, that he has a very different approach to theology. For Ephrem the biggest theological “no-no” in theological discourses thinking that you've got God figured out and that you’ve got God in a box.
He warns against that, profusely all over his theology. So it's interesting. He, at the same time that the Council of Nicea in 325, is saying we've decided and we've figured out that the best way to talk about this issue of is Jesus God or not is homoousios—he’s the same essence as the Father. That's the Creed and if you don't believe in that you're not a Christian!
And again, I mean, I believe that. I believe in what the Council of Nicea was trying to say, I believe Jesus is God, I don't believe he's lesser than the Father in any way. Neither did Ephrem. Ephrem is clearly not a subordinationist in his theology and Christology. He writes a vehement critique of Aryans. The Aryans who are the ones that were saying that Jesus didn't exist. So nobody would say that Ephrem was a subordinationist, not at all. [Though] at the same time, though he actually critiques the use of that word homoousios and the entire way it's kind of being used as a banner of Orthodoxy and this boundary of Orthodoxy. He's saying, why are you trying to introduce names and phrases and stuff that's not from the Scripture and elevate it as almost as if it is. So he does, and again, in his language there, you know, the way to translate homoousios didn't work for him in his context, again talking about John's (the gospel) literature, Ephrem wrote these things called madrāšê. Madrāšê were again, poems that were recited publicly with a choir and it really relates, I think very well to African American culture is very call and response kind of thing where there would be an orator, or a speaker, who would chant these compositions publicly in the public square and the audience would respond with a chorus. And it was just a very powerful musical tradition that originally was actually pagan and Ephrem actually re-appropriated it toward you know, to actually teach the gospel and to teach theology in his context. And so writing in that unique genre he doesn't find homoousios to be a useful way of articulating the divine mystery in his context. So he speaks the same gospel message, but he rejects this Western, hegemonic, you know, way that it has to be communicated in these Western way. I mean homoousios is not in the Bible. That's not a Biblical term.
So for Ephrem his theology and really Syriac Theology as well, following like, Jacob of Sarug, and Narsai, you know, Philosophus of , and all of these other…Bar Hebraeus, this whole line of Syrian theologians that wrote in a language that is just unknown. They you know, they really have a lot more respect for the way that God, Logos, speaks through His Word and also through creation. There's a lot of creation in there especially for a lot of my indigenous brothers and sisters who have a hard time with you know, Western Christianity being very cognitive and cerebral and scientific that again, the the Syrian branch of Christianity, which eventually spread into China and into India and into Central Asia at a very early stage was was a lot more holistic theologically.
Seth 43:46
For those of you that can't see the video…so the way that Vince is talking about this is the same way that some people are excited about whatever the Super Bowl teams are going to be. I wish you all could see like the animated(ness) of “No, let me tell you” You like, I just I just I really, really liked the past I'm sitting here watching I'm like, people that you look like Shannon Sharpe yelling about somebody on football like, let me tell you. I love when you love what you do, it just makes it better.
So yeah, so talking about language I recently heard recently, maybe six, seven months ago, I listened to a lot of podcast, although not a lot of religious ones, because I want my questions to be mine and not aping somebody else's questions, but it was a conversation about linguists and like, Islander languages like well past Hawaii, and talking about, how the language there—when they still speak, the reason that they navigated so well is because the way that the language was built, like they didn't talk about East versus West, like they used language in a different direction.
And that when they try to translate words they're like, they don't have an east and so when you say the word east, like you know how far like as far as the east is from the west, all that type of stuff, so it's like they say, you know, I sail in the direction slightly the left of where the sun comes up, and or where the sun sets or where the sun never sets or unit which would be like north or south, the sun never sets there. And so when they talk about stories of the Bible or stories of anything, it means something different because they don't have the same foundational language that we do. Which are really like really, really like, I'm curious. So most of the time when people think about that part of the world, all they think about is Islam. And they tend to just forget that Christianity is from there. And so what is kind of the relationship with Islam and the early church in that area, is there a relationship between the two?
Vince 45:41
Oh, most definitely. And I mean, that's a great question that I think really connects to the whole again, going back to my personal story and the whole reason that gets into this. I mean, in the 300s when the Roman Emperor Constantine, and then all the Roman theologians who really want to prop him up, you know, when he wants to now try to appropriate Christianity to really make it a Roman thing that was really the beginning of the groundwork that led the Western world. Then later after the fall of the Roman Empire, Western European nations start to rebuild themselves but in the likeness of Constantine and they want to kind of, again, make Rome Great Again and be a new—whether it's Charlemagne or Clovis I or you know, Ricard, the first and all of these different European kingdoms in the 500 and 600s. They continue this trajectory of making Christianity this Western expression and kind of harkening back to the the quote, unquote, you know, good old Roman days of the Church.
That even though Christianity was in, you know, Egypt, Nubia, Ethiopia, Arabia, India, Central Asia, and China even earlier than these European continents, right. But, you know what happened, I think the first step is that the Council of Chalcedon in 451, that was the major breaking point between the Roman Church and many of these other churches in Asia and Africa. Where, again going to language like you mentioned, like they Council of Chalcedon says, “Well how to talk about Jesus in a way that makes sense to us”?
Okay, well, let's say that he's one person. He's one Jesus. He's one hypostasis but he has two natures. He has two phases, a human and divine one. And a lot of the other churches in Arabia and Asia and Africa, that didn't make sense to them. There were like that sounds like you're saying, there's two different Jesus's. Now that's not what the Roman Church was saying and what Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, later Protestant Christians have just kind of maybe just not really thought through that and just kind of imbibed that and so that's why a lot of these early Christians will just get written off by a lot of Western Protestants. Even reading churches through text books written by evangelicals will just write them off and say, well, the church at that time was trying to really strike a middle ground and everyone was on two extremes and the western church had the right answer in the middle. And I'm just like, that's…that's crap.
(Seth laughter) 48:07
Vince 48:08
You know, most of most people who have that kind of opinion haven’t read Timothy Leary of Egypt against Chalcedon, or haven't read the theology of Jacob of Sarug in the Syriac or Philosophers of M…. to really understand what they were saying.
And they will just kind of, without even knowing how to read their stuff in Syriac or in Coptic, they'll just reject it as heretical and say, well the problem with them is they don't really believe Jesus is really human, they just thought he was God. That is the opposite of the truth. These believers believed fully in the full humanity and the full divinity of Jesus Christ, who is part of the triune of God. They just reject the language specifically of saying that he's one person in two natures. As perhaps trivial as this argument might seem to a lot of us today this led to bloodshed for 200 years and the Roman Church is going into the churches. So this is like Christian on Christian violence and oppression and colonialism going in Africa and going into Asia for 200 years and trying to force their particular theology.
So Roman soldiers backed by Roman priests, or actually the other way around, Roman priests backed by Roman soldiers going into Egyptian and Nubian and Syrian and Arabian churches saying, you have to talk about Jesus like we do over going to kill you. And so it created a very big gap. And and also it really weakened the churches of Africa and Asia, who were, as I mentioned, spreading all over the continents of Africa and Asia. And honestly, this is, this is why this Western white captivity, the church is a very huge problem. Because once Europeans started saying, we got this thing, you got to be a Christian like us, or we're going to hurt you. Then it again, it hindered the gospel affects!
So the gospel was on its way. It was going down the Nile, it was on its way to West Africa and South Africa and Central. It was on its way to Southeast Asia and into the islands and, you know, over the Americas it was it was already reached the Pacific Ocean by 600s. But when white folks said, you got to be a Christian like us, or we're gonna kill you, it's severely weakened the missional efforts of a lot of these early Asian African Christians. Then when Islam comes around 200 years after that in the 600s, it conquers so much of this part of the world where Christians had already been.
I mean, Muhammad was educated by it and the Quran is written in dialogue. The Quran is almost written as a response to Christianity and it sees itself as a correction to it. This Christianity is all over the place. Some of the earliest writings in Arabic were done by Christians. There are stone petroglyphs from Arabia from the three hundreds that have crosses on the Arabic. The Quran even talks about the Christians of Najran, which is a city of Arabia, where Christians are being killed by a particular Jewish tyrant in the 500s and the Quran mentions this event and actually refers to the Christians who were murdered for their faith as believers! The Quran calls Christians believers, particularly Najranites believers.
So there's Christians all over this part of the world, of course, but then Muslims take over. But the crazy thing is that at first, a lot of the Christians in Egypt and in North Africa and in Arabia and Persia, the Christians would now say “Okay, well, now we're ruled by this new religion called Islam”. At that point, Muslims were the numerical minority. They were in charge of the world, but they were now ruling these regions that were full of Christians, Jews or Zoroastrians and people. So they had to work with people at first and so Christians were allowed to still be Christian. In fact, a lot of the Christians, some of them, were even happy that the Muslims conquered. There were like “Yeah, get those Roman Christians out!”
Vince 51:43
And that's kind of crazy, but I always mentioned that to a lot other black Christians. Why like man sometimes knows. I don't know man, like 80% of evangelicals put Trump in office. Like man like sometimes you wonder like, I know white folks are brothers, sisters in Christ, but sometimes you feel like you relate to a black Muslims more than a white Christian. That's kind of like what was happening in Africa, they're like, man. Yeah, get those Roman Christians out of here we of course, we don't share our faith with you. But because there was already this bitter tension over this Christological issue, you know that the Christians of Egypt and Arabian and Syria, we're now under Islamic rule, we're actually now more free to operate and to do their thing for a while.
But the problem happens several hundred years later, and the 1000s when the Crusades start. Now again, you're coming, you're saying, we're going to Make Jerusalem Great Again. And we're going to come in here and we're going to take it for the gospel! That made situation for Christians in that context, in the Middle East and Egypt, much harder and much worse. Now Muslims are starting to say Alright, we're going to force you to convert because these Christians in our lands might be traitors and they might start helping these Europeans these Francks who are coming in here. So now we need to really force conversions. But before that it wasn’t really forced conversions in the world ruled by Islam.
Christians-Muslims are you know, everybody was living in relative peace and they even have interfaith dialogues and debate. I mean, there's debates written in the 1800s in Baghdad by top Christian and top Muslim leaders arguing with each other saying, “hey, you're, you know, even the Trinity, Hey, you guys are wrong. God doesn't have children”.
Seth 53:19
And nobody kills each other.
Vince 53:20
And nobody kills each other! But during the crusades, that really changes. So again, this is the history of the more and more it becomes Westernized it makes it so much harder for non Western Christians to continue to live in their faith because they become implicated with those folks. And that's still that we were still dealing with today.
Seth 53:40
I don't want to make a light of what you just said, because it's literally people dying. But when people are like, yeah, Seth, are you like, are you a Christian? And I'm like, I don't even know if I want to say that word anymore. Because when you say Christian in Central Virginia, or in Houston, Texas, or in I don't know, wherever, they're like, Oh, so you believe in A,B, C, and I’m like…No, actually, I don't know.
I don't know if that's what you think Christian is then I'm not that. I'm something else, fully in love with Christ. But I'm not that! So don't put me in that! Which is awful that you have to, you have to distance yourself from the Church in that way.
You may or may not know this, but based upon a few, I don't know, six, seven months ago, somebody said, Hey, I struggle with hearing. And someone has told me this is a good conversation. I think I was talking to Brad Jersak. Like, will you transcribe this one? And I was like, Sure. So I transcribed it. They're all on the website. And then I was like, well, crap, you can't just do one. Now I got to start it episode one and work my way up. So I transcribe the episodes, both in real time and a few each week in the past.
And I'm terrified to transcribe this one because a lot of these words and people I don't even know how to spell them. And so I'm gonna give everyone a caveat right now, if you're reading the transcript of this whenever it comes out, I am entirely 1,000% certain that I've screwed up some of these names and some of these texts, just because I don't even know how to Google it.
Like Literally, you wrote one, Giyorgis of Segla I think you said, and I spelt it with like a J and with a y and then it was like now it's Ge or whatever I'm like, Oh crap, I don't even know how many I don't even know how to Google these (laughter). But I'll do the best I can.
So I referenced at the beginning before we started recording, and unless, unless for some reason I've missed timed when I hit the button, that I wanted to ask you a question, I plan to ask every single person and then after that, I'll let you plug the places tell people where they can learn more about that. And really, I would like to know, maybe a handful of texts at the end as well that people can go and buy and kind of dive into some of this stuff. Because I would also personally like to do that. So but when you say the word God or the divine, when you say that, what do you mean?
Biggest question I think I'm going to ask all year of anyone because most people like I alluded to earlier, they're like, Ahhhhh, so what do you mean when you say God?
Vince 55:59
Yeah. That's a great question and honestly like I said, I'm getting into practice this in my house around here like, my youngest daughter was like she started doing that so I like that but I've like literally recently I'm getting in this habit of actually using the Egyptian word for the divine or for the creator which is noute and and it means the same thing as God but again, God I mean, we when we look at where that word comes from, it actually comes from again, like pre Christian Germanic, you know, paganism. Which is cool, you know, but again, just as a way of like showing, hey, there's other ways that we can talk about the creator and it doesn't have to be God or heaven and hell and all this Nordic terminology, but we can use stuff from our African roots or Asian or whatever.
I mean, you know, in China they have you know, they call them Shangdi and in Ethiopia is the creators known as Igziabeher and means that means the Lord of the land, literally.
I really liked that one. But, but yeah, I mean, when I when I see like, noute, or God, or Dios in Spanish, I'm just talking about the I'm talking about the Creator, I'm talking about first cause of all existence, the cause of all things good, the originator of all life who is eternal, who lives outside and inside time and all kind of human attempts of understanding even what existence are that he's the reason for all of it.
He's the reason for everything good, but nothing bad. And I believe that His Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh. I believe that it speaks through his images in every single human being. And I think that his Spirit breathed life inside of every person and that it draws all people to him. And so even people who have not yet fully come to know him fully realized, as the incarnate Yeshua-HaMashiach that spirit that lives in that the spirit of the Almighty that lives and dwells in every person is drawing them to and so even all of us in our, in our worship even if it hasn't been fully realized even in other religions it hasn't been fully realized yet in Yeshua.
I love the imagery of the Magi story in the Nativity, where you have these, you know, Persian, Zoroastrian priests, the Zoroastrians, they worship the stars. So that's why they were looking at the stars. And then the creator noute actually calls them through their worship and through the stars. So I think when I see people who are worshiping and reaching out to the divine, even if they're not Christian, even if they're not a Nazawawi, right, haven't fully known Jesus as Lord and Savior, that I see that the creator's working in drawing them unto himself drawing through His Spirit, and through his words.
I believe that the Bible is, the Old and the New Testament is God's Holy Word. And so the way that the Scripture talks about God that He is completely light and in Him there is no darkness that he is not a human, that His ways are above those humans. That He is the Creator that he is all good. That he is Love. That all the ways that the spirit and the word which I believe testify in agreement with one another, describe who the Creator, the divine Elohim, Yahweh to be is what I mean, when I say God.
And I would add that everything I just said, is utterly worthless to really understand really, who God is.
Seth 59:20
(Laughter)
Vince 59:22
It far misses the mark. (joins in laughter)
Seth 59:27
So I asked it to a guy weeks ago, and he asked me back and I was like, you know, God's a metaphor that I don't quite have the words for yet. And that's the best thing I can come up with, without any expounding on it, you know? And then you have to define what a metaphor is. But I've tried to find out what that answer is to myself for myself in a way that I can explain it to my 7 year old and my 10 year old, you know, I can if I can't explain it to them, then what's the point if that makes any sense at all?
And that won't always be the case. So where do people go to hear more of you read more of you? You teach correct because there's a doctor there. Yeah. So where do people go to engage with you? And then again, if you could give us maybe one or two places to go to kind of find a manifest or lists that we could kind of learn more about some of this history that we just don't know about. I think that would be helpful.
Vince 1:00:24
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I do teach in two different contexts. I'm here in Houston, Texas, I'm Prof at Fuller Theological Seminary. You know, it's based in Pasadena. But we have a campus here in Houston, as well. And so I teach Church History and also Black Church studies and you know, right now teaching a class on Intro to Black Theology, and we're getting into a lot of this, this fun stuff. And so that's definitely a place I'd love to connect with people through taking courses and doing degrees or just auditing, you know, as well.
We do stuff online. And I also am part of a seminary, called the Meachum School of Haymanot. Haymanot is an Ethiopian word for theology. And the website for that is https://meachum.org/ And that's also a place where we offer classes fully online or in person, you know, we offer in residence courses in St. Louis, Missouri, and in Newark, New Jersey. And but they're also fully online courses in theology, Biblical Studies, and it has a very Afro-centric kind of perspective, but also in Biblical Orthodoxy. And we have a conference coming up in Chicago on October 23 24th, called the Society for Gospel Haymanot. It's going to be a gathering where, you know, again, Afro-centric, theological and Biblical Studies.
And so that's another context that that folks could find me and also through the Meachum School, I'm gonna be leading a trip to Ethiopia in January of 2021. And so I'm actually finalizing the flyer for that right now. So people can be on the lookout for that literally in the next couple of weeks. So yeah, there's just some things in there. Yeah with turther reading. Yeah, I would say I would say that you know, some good books that come to mind. I guess maybe secondary sources would be you know, there's Philip Jenkins has a book called The Lost History of Christianity, which is really good. And Thomas Oden has a book called How Africa Shaped the Christian Mind. And there's a book called Black Man's Religion by Craig Keener and Glen Usry and those are some good I think, some good texts that are really good intros.
I think, some better, but also like longer or it's like a lot more intense stuff is like history. Eastern Christianity by Aziz Atiya was a bit longer but it's written by more of a specialist. I think it's an even more in depth look into a lot of these communities and then in terms of primary sources, which I think is even more important.
Vince 1:03:06
I mentioned Aphrahat, Ephrem the Syrian. In Coptic Shenoute of Atripe and that's related to that noute word I mentioned for God. Yes, Shenoute is really one of the greatest writers in the Coptic Egyptian language. And there's actually some really good recent English translations of a lot of his writings.
And in the Ethiopian context, I think Giyorgis of Segla is a really great resource and also the reading the Sutras from China, the Christian Sutras from China that were written. There’s a translation of those in English by a Japanese scholar. I don't remember his first name, but I know his last name is I think I might be mispronouncing but it's Saeki. And it's just really great to read these Chinese contextualized texts that were written, you know, over 1000 years ago. That talk about the Holy Spirit as the cool breeze. And then he says Jesus is the World Honored One, and talks about how he came to illuminate the four cardinal paths and the eight noble truths. And it's this beautiful contextualization of the gospel message into a Taoist Confusionist context. And so some of these primary texts are really good.
The last book I mentioned is that I'm my own stuff, like I have a book coming out in a couple months with intervarsity Press called a Multitude of All Peoples, and it's also kind of a secondary text that just kind of gives an intro to a lot of this early history. And then, and that should be coming out soon.
But also a plug that's a bit further off, but I'm really excited about is actually just signed a contract with University of California Press to do a primary text reader, where what we're going to do is myself and a team of translators of a dozen people, we're actually going to take a lot of these texts. You know, who like, like I mentioned, Giyorgis of Segla wrote an entire systematic treatise, but the sad thing is, it’s not even to my knowledge. It's not translated in English, it's translated into Italian from Ethiopian. So you know, we can't even read the best systematic theology written by a pre colonial African.
But, this will be included in this reader. And it will include dozens and dozens of texts in Arabic, Chinese, a Persian, Egyptian, Nubian, an Ethiopian, Armenian, so on and so forth. And it's going to be just primary text written by Christian theologians from before the colonial period. So from the first 1500 years of Christianity, so we just signed the contract of that should be out, you know, when our projected date is in two years. So the hope will be that that will be a resource for those who are interested in reading some of these people in their own writing.
Seth 1:05:44
So when you say reader, you mean you're taking it and just verbatim translating it to English, and then letting me read that with none of your context. Although I'm aware, and I agree with Brueggemann. Every time we translate something, there's a little bit of your inherent bias in the translation because that's just how words work. But that aside, that's what it is. It's not like it's like a commentary or anything. It's just moved over.
Vince 1:06:08
That's right. It's just, it's just moved over. And there will be I mean, it's meant to be a follow up to my book that's coming out this spring because like, as I speak on it, and hopefully as it folks read the book, and people have said like, okay, Vince, you bet now told me these names, I don't know, like Ephrem. I never heard of these theologians. And wow, they actually wrote just as much as, as Augstine or Calvin or Luther or Aquinas or whatever. And I need to read them as well. How do I read them, Vince? I'm like, well see what it happened was.
Seth 1:05:40 (laughter)
What happened was, I'll fix that. I'll fix it.
Vince 1:06:42
Exactly. But now in the reader though there will be. It's meant to kind of be a follow up to the book, which is the intro it gives that context, but in the book in the reader, there will be context as well. So they'll be an introduction that talks about a kind of a summary again of like, This is the story of how Christianity spread and Africa and Asia and You know, a little bit intro and then even before each text, they'll be like a little intro to say, Okay, this is what this text is this who this author is, this is what they're talking about. This is the writing of this genre of literature. And then we'll give like a, you know, might be a 5 to 10 page excerpt from like, you know, kind of the greatest hits of early African and Asian Theology.
Seth 1:07:19
I have greatly enjoyed it. I am entirely terrified to transcribe it, but I'll do it. But I have really enjoyed talking with you learning just like this is just scratching like, I literally was writing on every single one of those names. I know absolutely nothing about really any of this. And that is both terrifying, little bit infuriating, but I'm also really excited about it, because it gives me…gives me more space to grow.
The more and more that I do this show and the more and more that I read things, I realized just how little the God that I believed in was and how much bigger the God that I believe in is which is really great. So thank you again for coming on. Bery much so I'd love to have you back on at a different date, when I maybe actually know a few things. So we have a little more questions to ask there.
Vince 1:08:02
Oh, no, thanks so much for having me is awesome.
Seth Outro 1:08:10
It is a privilege to be able to speak to people that bring so much new knowledge, new names new theologians to the table, and are doing so in such a way that the events isn't judging me for not knowing. And he's just really lovingly coming alongside to educate and it was an honor and a privilege to talk with Vince today. I'm going to list I'm gonna try my best in the show notes to list all of the books that he talked about in a lot of the theologians that he talked about and then in the transcript of the show, everywhere that those names pop up, I will shoot links if I'm able to to their Amazon or other books or you know, other information on those people because if you're like me, they're all new people. A tremendous thank you again to the salt of the sound for still allowing me to use your music in today's episode. Eventually I will get back to mixing a new music but again, I'm committed to working my way through the backlog of transcripts. I have about 40 more left to go.
I hope that every single one of you are blessed—talk with you next week.