Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Seth Price 0:08
Hey everybody, I wanted to introduce you to something I think you might like. And so if you're a listener of the Can I Say This At Church podcast, you are probably a person that likes to think about things that you've been told. We don't talk about that in, you know, normal society, or we don't talk about that at work, or we don't talk about that. Definitely don't talk about that at Thanksgiving, or at Christmas dinner. And so, I want to introduce you to Lucas Land, he has a podcast called, We Don't Talk About That. And I'm gonna let you hear a bit about it from him. But I really think you're gonna enjoy it.
Lucas Land 0:48
Are you ever afraid to talk about something? do you avoid certain topics, maybe with certain people? (Whispers) Like your racist Uncle Frank? Sorry, Frank, it's true.
Do you want to learn how to have better conversations, increase compassion and build bridges, not walls.
We don't talk about that with Lucas Land is the podcast where we do talk about that with me, Lucas Land, get it wherever find podcasts can be found.
Seth Price 1:27
The years coming to a close, I want to say so many things. And I'm not going to say those yet because that time is coming. However, I do want to let you know about a few announcements just in case for some reason you missed it. Everything in the store is on sale for 15% off 20% off if you're a patron supporter of the show, and you should be because you should be. Let me just thank you now for doing that. The promo code to get the discounts for patrons you just asked for that. But you should have received that email already. If you didn't let me know and I'll get that for you. But for everyone else is just FU2020. Just type that in because I believe it. I think you believe it. To hell with it. FU2020 at the checkout and you get 15% off whatever you happen to click the button on that you wanted.
I also want to take this time right now to thank people like Logan Kimler for becoming supporters of the show you sir, are a saint, if I had the ability to make you one I would and so join him click the buttons. Today I had Lo Alaman come on the show. Lo is technically if I remember from the episode right not a pastor, and you'll get that joke in a minute. He wrote a book called We Sang a Dirge and that wasn't something that I'm familiar with; it's like a collection of poems and prayers. And questions. Not a lot of answers. Here we go.
Seth Price 3:19
Lo Alaman, we did it. How you doing man? How's the evening?
Lo Alaman 3:23
Doing good.
Seth Price 3:24
For those who haven't been able with to listen we've been going at this now for like a few minutes. And I've enjoyed it already. I should have hit record earlier. And I didn't. And I'm sorry for those that aren't privy to the stuff beforehand. However, man, welcome to the show. Tell us a little bit about you. So you're in Texas, which is just found out I didn't know that. And I want to be real clear. I try to do very minimal research outside of reading whatever I'm talking to you about, or listening, so that I can be as ignorant as possible because I find it makes for better conversations. So tell us what makes you human what makes you tick?
Lo Alaman 3:53
Yeah, I’m a dad, a husband, I like Jesus a lot and in light of liking Jesus and getting paid to talk about him, I'm technically a minister, not like an actual pastor or whatever, because I'm a part of like a Methodist Church that may take like, I have a lot of like red tape for who actually is or is not a pastor. So I'm not a pastor, I just like Jesus. And I get to preach every now and then. And yeah man I’m just an artist, I travel around, pre COVID, just talking about Jesus doing an art form called spoken word poetry, which is basically writing poetry down with some flavor on it and saying it out loud. Which was a cool hobby before, but it's kind of turned into a ministry of its own, which has been a huge blessing to life in my family.
And yeah, man, it's a fun. So things that made me tick would obviously be writing I like art. I like rap music. I'm more of a basketball guy than a football guy; previous conversation that you guys are privy to we were talking about football, much more than NBA dude. Born in LA so I love the Lakers, but I'm a real Lakers fan, so I don't like LeBron. Which is like a weird tension. (Laughter)
Seth Price 4:56
What is a real Lakers fan?
Lo Alaman 4:58
Ah man, that means you weren't a part of the bandwagon you were down those four year we sucked. You were you were still on board. You saw the farewell tour with Kobe and you watched every game and you saw us lose a bunch but you were there. Yeah, man like I bleed this stuff. But because of that, remember, like, ‘08-‘09 they were doing those Kobe-LeBron and they're pitting them against each other. So having LeBron wear a purple and gold right now…it's just, it's not normal. It's not normal.
Seth Price 5:26
Come on. That didn't do it, man. So what is technically a minister like? That's like, so you're applying for a job? And they say, yeah, technically you're a minister. But we're not going to call you one. Like what does that mean?
Lo Alaman 5:39
So I grew up I grew up in a context different than what I'm currently working in. I grew up in a an all black church. Small CME. In Mississippi.
Seth Price 5:51
What is CME?
Lo Alaman 5:53
Ugly history, used to be the colored methods Episcopal now is the Christian Methodist Episcopal. So it was a part of like the Methodist Church that broke off because blacks and white folks couldn't do live together well. So there's that. So my church I grew up in really, really small with the rural. And if you want to preach and be a pastor, you just be like, y'all want to do that. And they kind of let you. I'm currently serving in a much larger denomination that has a lot more, kind of, unity around what you can cannot do without going to like seminary without you know, being ordained. And so I have no desire for ordination. I have no money for seminary, or a large enough interest and invest the time. Yeah, I get to do all the same stuff. Except for I can't marry you, bury you. And I can't bless your bread and serve you wine and give you the blood and body of our Savior.
Seth Price 6:45
So in our church will let deacons. I don't say the words, but they're the people that are there when you come by in a not prepared in a pre COVID world, which is a weird way to timestamp the world. But I think that's going to be a thing for a long time. Like it would be our deacons consoling but we're in a cooperative Baptist Church. So I think we do what we want is Baptist. Like we literally like Yeah, we do our own thing. We do our thing to do your thing.
Lo Alaman 7:11
Cooperative Baptists. I've not heard that though?
Seth Price 7:12
So the acronym is CBF. I think there's a big chapter, maybe that's the right word alliance, group in Texas as well. So there's like regional Baptist churches that are all affiliated and a lot of them are basically the ones that were like yet we will have a female minister you know, because Phoebe's a thing, you know, in the Bible and some of these other things. In fact my preach the other day, he was talking about something and I think it was Corinthians and Paul started talking about, you know, like, I told this woman, you know, and she was basically, you know, like, when you were at her church, at her house, and she was ministering to you. Like she said, I'm also not gonna go forward. And so he's like, I'm actually just put all of that women can't be ministers thing, right to bed. And then he just kept on going. Actually, it was, I thought, I was like, that was a message right there. Like I needed all of that.
But he was doing this whole. Some of you support the president. I know this, because you've told me some of you can never and I know this, because you've told me. He just kept doing the binary things like, and now I need you to hear me. But all of you, I need you to listen for a minute. I know this, because you told me is really good message. Yeah, it's on. It's on the internet, somewhere. Anyhow, so the CBF they basically broke off the SBC and basically said, Yeah, we've got our own issues. Don't miss hear that every congregation got their own issues. every church. And then they don't really govern us, we mostly just kind of pull money to do some larger national type stuff. But yeah, they basically broke off the CBF. And then just a little more bad blood, or whatever it's called.
So even in Virginia, there's another organization underneath that, that is more of a local as opposed to statewide thing. And they're basically making us choose from what I remember, from the business meetings of you can't support any homosexuality at all, we're going to need you to take a firm stance. And based on your stance will be whether or not you can still continue to be in this organization. But we still want you to send your money. (Lo laughs)
And I'm pretty sure one of our business meetings soon is going to be one of these. What are we doing? Because, you know, at our church, you know, we've got many homosexuals in the church, some of them we've allowed to preach, and they had been powerful sermons. Like, they brought a word and it matters. You know what I mean? Like it matters. Anyway, now, I’ve brought us to an entirely different conversation. That's the danger of not scripting these questions.
Lo Alaman 9:44
I love it! I love that we're talking about that. That conversation is real bro. That's kind of why I try to lean into like that, even your passion kind of like, I don't know how to exist in the binary. The beauty of artistry is, like, I get to kind of be in that in between. And kind of open eyes and say, “Hey, don't forget nuance. I know this is ugly, but it's also beautiful, and that is beautiful, but that's also ugly”, you know?
Seth Price 10:06
So I wanted to just set that. So you wrote a book, which for the life of me, I can't figure out who's publishing this book. I even tried the Google and I'm usually good at the Google. It doesn't really matter who's publishing it. I'm thankful for them reaching out. However, the book is called, and I got it wrong a minute ago, and I don't want to get it wrong again. We Sang a Dirge correct? We Sang a Dirge Yeah. What the heck is a dirge? That's not a word that we use. It's not on the radio, is not a genre, well it is…but you know what I mean? Like, what is a dirge?
Lo Alaman 10:35
Yeah, so that line is a direct quote from Jesus in Matthew 11. And he's basically calling out all of those who are apathetic, but yet calling themselves followers of Yahweh. And he's pretty much saying, like, you know, the church of the kingdom is a lot like you people, except for when the kids cry out and they want you to celebrate and to hang out with them-you do that. You see (that) they're happy to rejoice and you celebrate the things that are worth celebrating. It's like when kids are crying out singing sad songs, a dirge, which is a funeral song. The little kids are singing this funeral song. They're mourning something has happened and they're devastated. They've lost something that is deeply personal to them. And you walk by and you don't mourn, and you don't cry, you don't lament with them that's when you miss the kingdom.
You have every ingredient for the kingdom of God except for you don't know how to sing and dance, know how to cry when it's time to cry. And so yeah, Jesus is basically saying there's no room for apathy in the kingdom of heaven. There's no room for that cold hearted, I’m so for my opinion, I'm so for my stance or my view, that when I see somebody of another stance and other view, I can't empathize. I can't cry, I can't dance.
So yeah, the line that Jesus gives there “we’re saying a dirge” is like a bunch of kids crying out in the market square. And that, to me, feels a lot like growing up in a black church. And then bringing all that into kind of like working in a white church. Like holding a lot of burden and lament and angst that I don't always feel welcome to share. And when I do share it's an awkward moment. Like, I just definitely ruffle feathers. And that's not always great. So yes, I figure out how to live within the tension of being black and Christian and an artist. And I feel like those three folds are who I am publicly to people. And most of my circles can tolerate about two thirds of me. I can be black and Christian, Christian and artist, or artist and black. But all three aren't always welcome. I think we all kind of strive towards a place where we can be fully ourselves. And this book is just kind of like an outcry of that.
Seth Price 12:39
Which one do you think is more often silence? Which two of the three are dominant?
Lo Alaman 12:44
It depends on where I'm at. I was born in California, but I grew up in Mississippi. So again, vastly different spaces, vastly different experiences. And so my California family thinks I have a southern accent. My Southern family thinks I have a California accent.
Seth Price 13:01
(laughter)
You don't have an accent at all!
Lo Alaman 13:03
(through laughter) I have nothing, literally nothing!
But that's the thing right is like it depends on where I'm at. People can tell that I’m “other” you know? Which I feel like is most of the black experience in general. I think all of us in some capacity, feel it. But that's definitely black experience, at least mine.
Seth Price 13:21
I want to talk about your book. And I'm probably going to jump around a lot. So I've got I hope you've got it in front of you or memorized, probably both. So the book, and I'm going to try to summarize some of it, I wasn't really ready to read it. Like when it came, (at the beginning), I don't know who this person is just being honest. And most people don't know me. And I think that's probably for the better. And then as I read it, I was talking to my friend, Josh, just tonight, because I reread the very first part. And I was at my son's karate reading through it, because I want to make sure that I wasn't 100% ignorant for this evening. And I was rereading back through the bookmarks from a month or so ago when I first started reading it. And I was not…like I set it down. Like I was not prepared oftentimes. Enough so that the lady sitting next to me kept looking at me like, because I was reading it on my phone, and I kept doing the whole just, you know, (mines frustration) just doing that whole thing.
So one of the things I wasn't really prepared from so the book is like approaching the lens of like #BlackLivesMatter and like just a bunch of things that I wish we really didn't have to talk about. That shouldn't be a thing and you referenced it earlier, I have no idea if we were recording like I think we were, about you know, oddly enough, you know, oftentimes you get black churches and white churches or white and black people in the same church and they just can't seem to get along and that's ridiculous and stupid. But I wasn't prepared for it and I'm gonna say his name wrong, Jeremy Mardis, I think.
First off, I was ashamed. I didn't even know who that was. I had to Google it. And then as I read it, I was like, uhhh, and I think I forget even the line you use you're like “But where was your all lives matter when this happened”? Can you…I don't think most people will know that story. Can you kind of…that was the first set (the book) down. I'm like, “Who is this kid”? And I feel so convicted? Like, why don't I know this name? And all the other names I know, why don't I know this name?
Lo Alaman 15:12
Well, and that's what the artist is trying to do is to pull out the, the conviction of not knowing him, but also the assumptions you have about them as you read it. But yeah, so So Jeremy Mardis is a little boy, six years old, who was killed by the police while he was sitting in the car with his dad, his father got into an altercation with some police officers earlier in the week. And after coming from a bar, his dad is pulled over. The police officers draw their weapons. Jeremy’s dad doesn't have a weapon in the car at the time. And they shout some commands at him and don't get much time for him to react to any of them. And they just open fire. The dad lives, the dad survived the shooting. A little boy was six shot five times and he died.
And the story is hard. It's a hard story no matter what. But when I heard it, when I first read the story, I was like, this is not unfamiliar to me. This is not a new story, altogether, and then I found out he was a white boy. That it was it was like I don't I mean not to categorize what to do there. So one of one of the lines in the poem is that
“..the curse of the world that already has caskets your size that you die this black boy's death. And I don't know how to how my worldview can fit you in it. Because you're not a part of the narrative”.
You're not a part of Black Lives Matter narrative (but) you're also not a part of that conservative kind of staunch white narrative either. What do we do with you? I hate that his life is a perfect analogy for where I think all of us are but don't want to be and don't want to acknowledge that we are in the space for the genuine mourning that needs to take place in this country. We don't know how to.
Seth Price 16:58
Yeah, I'm gonna quote this to you. And then I'd hope that you can take it further. So you say and I can't even remember what chapter it's in because just to be clear, my notes are in the Notes app on my phone. So I didn't have paper with me, because as you saw the basement down here, most of my paper ends up getting colored on and whatnot. So the only place that I know I can control is the Notes app on my phone. So there's a part where you say,
for years I've been heartbroken by the church of silence on issues of racial injustice, and its complacency with homogeneity in worship. And you've been studying, praying and waiting for a time when Christians would be ready to deal with this division in our culture, or at least address it where it exists within congregations. And finally, it seemed like we were at a point where these issues couldn't be avoided. And we'd been forced to deal with the mess that we tried to sweep under the rug.
Can you kind of give voice to what you're talking about when you say “issues”? Because I ripped that entirely out of context? And then kind of how we swept it under the rug? And kind of the implications of that?
Lo Alaman 17:59
Yeah, yeah. So I feel like when things happen, we call them issues, I'm gonna give different names of them as we go. When there are moments that kind of highlight systemic inequalities, and I'll call them inequalities intentionally; moments that highlight that there is something going on in the undercurrent of how we have dialogue around race. When things happen and like Paula white says the N word, or a police officer kills a black person, the response is typically, these are black issues. And that narrative is really damaging for all parties involved, but it's damaging because it one assumes that we were one before this happened. And then now that this has happened, the onus is on the victims to fix the oneness that's now been called into question. And so it's a weird kind of dynamic that I’ve felt my entire life. I feel like those around me have felt for quite some time.
And so yeah, there has to be some point where we can have conversation about this is what this is-elsewise language like, you know, systemic racism or white privilege-those are always a trigger words to a side that don't think there's an issue already. And for those who very much believe that there's an issue by and large minority communities. Those issues can seem like why are we just now talking about it? And so when I say issues being swept under the rug, I mean, I grew up in a town where I knew where I could not go. My uncle was a Sheriff in Columbia, Mississippi, and there's a town right next to Columbia city Baxterville, where we legit could not drive at night. When our football team would go play football and Poplarville would drive through Baxterville. And they would hang like little stuff monkeys in their yards, and make it clear that our bus couldn't stop there.
And a lot of folks like to fantasize Mississippi as being this like exception. And I grew up there. I know Mississippi has some issue, but it's not just there. What's wild about that is why they maybe sweep this under the rug is that there are so many churches within that town that recognize what they recognize. They see the same thing I see. But because we are, in some ways, these are kind of taboos or just like they it is what it is kind of thing, it's rarely addressed or talked about. And so I think a lot of black people bring a lot of trauma to these conversations. And there's an expectation for that trauma to be, you know, compartmentalized in a separate place, and then have like, you know, healthy dialogue around it. And I think a lot of white folks bring a lot of a estranged reality and estranged perspective on what America is. And I would say, even a fascination with the idea of America as being this holy place, this clean place.
And it makes it really weird to have actual dialogue. When it does happen I think it's a window into heaven; I think it is beautiful. But I don't think it happens nearly as often. And so when Ahmaud Arbery was killed when the Breonna Taylor’s murder was brought to everybody's attention, and when Georg Floyd died, all of a sudden in the span of like, two months, that I had just moved to a predominantly white church family, white neighborhood, and it's during COVID. I haven't met these people yet.
And so I would hate to wear my lament that open in front of white folks I don't know how they're gonna receive it. That's actually what started the writing of the book was, I feel like I want to be as hurt and broken outwardly as I am in inwardly and I don't feel safe to do so. I don't know if my livelihood will be supported, which is really strange as like a minister, you know? I don't know how my livelihood will be supported with me being hurt.
Seth Price 21:35
You were talking about you. You listened to an episode prior on lament. And the reason I don't know which one that was, is because I've done that topic five or six times. But I remember the first time that it came up was with Professor Soong-Chan Rah. And he got a line in there. And it stuck with me since he said two things. One was about immigration and how they how it goes with the church. And the second was, he's like, we forget that like 78 or 77, or something percent of the whole Bible is all lament. And he's like, we read like, the 30% that isn't and we're like, “Yay, we did it”! But he's like, the rest of it is all like how long? Oh, it still sucks. You know, it's it's books like Amos and all the prophets being like, you still missed the point. And so I don't hear your worship, which has become like, Amos 5, you know, 20 through 25 or so has been my scripture for the whole year.
So, yeah, that Jeremy Mardis bit there, the line that got me the most was where you say
welcome to this ugly club of names grieved only by us and by Heaven.
And that was the part where I had to set it down. I don't know. Like, I'm sitting there looking at all these kids. And I have a five year old and an eight year old and yeah, I just it just hit too close to home. I don't like to be emotional. And that's your fault. You did this. You did this.
You talk about playing games with your family. You talk about house rules. And this was just because I like sarcasm. So you talk about the game of Boston, which I haven't played since college. So I'm curious, not Boston, you talk about Spades. Which Boston is a thing you can do in there see I already did it wrong.
Lo Alaman 23:13
I’m tracking with you.
Seth Price 23:15
So I used to be really good. So I'm really curious how often were you able to go Boston when you're playing house rules?
Lo Alaman 23:19
Wooo! I’m not the one you want to play with man!
Seth Price 23:21
Oh, so like you’re not able to go Boston or…?
Lo Alaman 23:24
No! You don't want to play against me. (laughter) So we have a thing in my family where like the poem is called House Rules, but it should be called like trash talking. Like that's like our love language. You know? My freshman year in college, I came in, like knowing how to play cards. And the trash talk…like I would spend nights 2am in the morning, I'm still at Waffle House playing Spades with friends. Not gonna be doing homework, you know, probably should be studying.
Seth Price 23:59
Yeah but it’s math though, it is math.
Lo Alaman 24:00
Come on, man. Yeah, I'm that guy with some spades, my guy. I’m that guy.
Seth Price 24:05
I can remember when I learned the concept of Boston, my dad and mom were teaching it to me. And he's like, yeah, but it's not really about getting all the tricks. It's about humiliating of the person only so that they don't have the confidence to like, I'm gonna go three. You sure you're gonna go three? I'm gonna go two. That's what I thought you're gonna go you know, kind of thing keeping your place. Yeah, yeah, we both know what's happening here.
So, I want to talk a bit about social media because I like how you approach it. You begin a poem talking about keyboards clicking and clacking, and I'm gonna badly paraphrase it. But towards the tail end of that you say that
arguments don't work and what we need to have instead is a generation filled with the Spirit of God.
And that's a word at least in my denomination. We don't use that often, like Spirit of God. Yeah, we don't put hands up when we sing. You put your hands down. I'm uncomfortable because your hands are not down. I think honestly, the fact that we can't sing because the COVID people are even more comfortable, like, yes, it's a concert. We're doing this. So can you talk a bit about that like talking about black lives matter? Singing a dirge missing the point of the whole party and celebration that Jesus talk about with the kids? And like, how we do that in social media? And what are you getting at when you mean Spirit of God? How does that all kind of go together?
Lo Alaman 25:26
Yeah, so I'm gonna give a nerdy theological answer and then try to make it make sense.
Seth Price 25:30
That's because you're that's because you're technically a minister.
Lo Alaman 25:33
Me air quotes, you can't see him. So I have poem is skipping yet things in the book. But back in Genesis one, you have the spirit hovering over the Toku wabo, who the chaos, the disorder, and it's like, okay, Gods near chaos. That's cool. That's nice to see. And that word for God's Spirit as the breath, his breath is hovering over chaos, which is a really interesting picture. Next page over Genesis two, you have God's spirit being breathed into the nostrils of a lifeless body. So the chaos isn't there, there's no life in the shell. And the spirit of the breath enters into the body fast forward, and to Zico. And the breath, blows through a cavern of dead things, and it brings them back to life. This idea that death is the absence of breath, the absence of life, and yet God seems super into breathing life when dead things but he's super forward. Like it should, you know, they have Jesus he comes, breezes breath over people's heads receive the Holy Spirit, it's kind of weird thing wouldn't be allowed to happen right now and COVID times. But he does, you know; he does. And then he dies! And he gives up the breath, like the breath of God leaves him, and he's dead dude. And then the Spirit brings him back to life, the breath comes back into a dead body. He's alive again. And then he breathes that life into the church and the church is alive now.
And so things that should not be alive God puts life in them via his breath, it this thing that animates us, that makes us human, makes us alive. And we're all for it. In the black church, when you catch the Holy Ghost, when the Spirit of God comes upon you—you dance, you sing, you cry. Black people, I think are in general are just like, Oh, I think we all have some animated-ness in all of us, regardless of what skin color you are. But particularly in black church, it was one of the few places we could read places, we could gather, and one of the few places we could really hold joy. And so we don't ever hold back in the gathering because that was our place to interact and be fully alive, right?
So what happens is you have people who should be down and dead and stoic and instead, when they're allowed to gather they're calling on God, they come alive in a way that is powerful and vibrant and beautiful. Yeah, for me, I think that I'm so exhausted with trying to convince a dead person, that this is an issue. You know, I'm tired of trying to argue a corpse back to life. I don't have a good track record of doing it. But God does. And so the prayer is that the Holy Spirit and breath of God will start to animate some people whose hearts are a little cold and dead to this particular conversation.
And this is Joel, the promise of the Holy Spirit's gonna come and breathe life into all of us. And we become sons and daughters; we wake up, we get hearts of flesh, you know? I think a lot of white and black in between brothers and sisters who have kind of grown callous and cold hearted to a lot of these issues. Both sides, too, I would say, because when I first started to work for a white church, a lot of my you know, black friends and family are like, why would you go work there? Yeah, and I think there is some underlying tension within our communities and I don't think politics are helping at all right now. But November 4th is coming so that's cool.
Seth Price 29:12
Some context, tonight when we're recording this, the President is having his own town hall because he refused to participate in a virtual debate, which I'll tell you right now. It's pretty easy to talk to somebody on the internet. This is 2020 of all the bad things this is a good thing. So we could be doing and watching that. And I'm glad we're not doing that.
So what do I do with that then? So if I get that, and something I've been learning, I've been trying to do better. And I think I got it from Jared Byas when I talked with him where he's like, you know, just tell me why. Tell me more Tell me and just asking a lot more questions. But I have about zero patience, for racism and for people that can't honor the divine in every single animated thing. Not in just in this world in all of them. And I don't know how to more emphatically say that. That I sometimes can't just hit block or just go off. And one of my friends will say he's like, Seth, you come in like, with like, too many hammers like you suck up all the space, and you leave no room for anyone to talk. And you bring in so much facts that people are like, back away slowly, and then they just leave, which isn't helpful to the conversation. So for people listening that are like, yeah, I feel alive. Like I feel moved to talk about this, been praying about this. I've been reading about this. I've been listening to a lot of podcasts about this. I've been doing this, I've been doing that, you know, I bought your book, I bought drew Hart's book, I went ahead and bought Ibram Kendi’s book, but like, I bought all the books, and I'm doing the thing and I feel “woke”. How do they approach that with their family with their social media community? Because that's become a new form of family, in a way that would be helpful, as opposed to causing more problems?
Lo Alaman 30:52
Well, I think, and this is where I like art for a number of reasons. I think there is a desire for all of us to connect deeply. And this is like, you know, the whole fully known-fully loved thing. We all want that. But it's risky as hell, like, that's a hard thing. You know, I'm saying the moment you start becoming more and more honest, the more you become more vulnerable, and they could love you less, but we’re so wired for, you know, approval and for that head nod, and for that, yes. It's a dangerous business, a dangerous business.
And I think that what art has a chance to do is to not say “this is the fact” it's simply to say, “this is how I feel”. I'm not as patient in the heat of the moment. I'm just not, like that’s the reality, I'm still a broken man. And so when I come to a conversation, and I'm trying to win an argument, I'm speaking fact and the more my facts are not being heard, the more my feelings are getting in it, you know? Like, so now, it's like an amalgam of facts and feeling all together and it's like, none of this is really getting where I'm trying to go. So versus arguing facts in the my feelings get hurt. I simply want to express my feelings.
And if you don't agree with the facts of it, that's fine. But, again, the whole response of the church is not to agree with why the kids are mourning, just mourn with them. You don't have to agree with that; expression, I think is a lost art that because we're kind of moved into this, you know, digital age and information age we've never had so much research to back our own opinions in the history of humanity. You know, it's really hard to get beyond that level of “Let me hear you just to argue you.” if I feel like we're in an argument. So I'll encourage anybody, even if you're not an artist, you don't have to be an artist, but find ways to have conversations that intentionally you cannot win. There's no way that could be a winner in the conversation if I'd say you hurt my feelings. Well, then it's like, well, no, I didn't do this. Okay. My feelings are hurt. Like I am hurting. Yeah, that's me and that ain’t got nothing do what you! You ain’t gotta hold that!
But like expressing lament and that's the thing about Biblical lament, right, is Biblical lament is “I'm aiming all of this frustration towards God”. Like it's towards God; my unrest, my frustration, it's all towards God. Now, there are things I can blame for this too. But I first find myself reconciling my own brokenness, my own pain, with someone who promises he's my father, like he hears, you know, I'm saying? And so starting there, I think whatever comes next is Jesus in John 15 where he's like, abide first be in the vine first. And then verse eight, this is my Father's glory, you bear fruit. Whatever fruit comes with you just inviting in that feeling that motion, that space, whatever comes from that is fruit. Whatever comes from that thing he'll work with that. So I think finding ways that we can just express feelings, and emotion and lament together, that aren't going to win an argument, I think is going to be key to figuring out whatever the next stage of community looks like. Because right now community is in chaos, it is in flux.
Seth Price 33:55
Yeah, who knows what community is…it is where you can be honest, that's what I think community is…where you can be honest. So you used some big words earlier, and I want to make sure so, Spirit of God in the Old Testament in Genesis is ruach, right? Am I saying that correctly ruach?
Lo Alaman 34:12
Yeah.
Seth Price 34:13
Yeah, so a friend of mine, and I forget where I read it. He said that in the New Testament, you know, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, they render to that, as you know, I'm giving up the you know, when Jesus is talking about, I'm leaving and something else is happening. But John is the only one that says I'm now giving you The Spirit, the same word that I'm giving you the same ruach so that when I leave, you can now come alive. Like death is dead, and now you're alive. So if you want to put that in, it's not really in any of the dirges.
But mostly I needed to ramble while I got my thoughts right for for this so you got a word in here about the “N” words we weren't allowed to say. And I debated as to whether or not I wanted to bring this up. Because to be honest, I read this really slow, multiple times, because I just…yeah…so I don't even know how to pivot into it. But there's a part on here; the part that I got is not…and obviously the N word is word but there are other N in here that I wasn't prepared for, like, like the “n” words we weren't allowed to say we’re
no, never, not again, nice day officer, our native language not forgotten. And they're stripped from your mouth, like a smooth mouthed screw
Which just that last sentence-I don't even know what a smooth mouth screw is. Is that a stripped screw? Is that what that is? (Lo shakes his head yes)
So can you go over that? Because that's just…I was uncomfortable with all of that. And I think that's appropriate and adequate, and probably the point.
Lo Alaman 35:40
Yeah! Yeah, it's worth noting that, because we're so used to facts we typically get books that like, and we don't know how to deal with poetry much in our culture these days.
Seth Price 35:49
I agree.
Lo Alaman 35:51
We want facts presented to agree with me or inform me, like that's the point. A book of poetry is to do exactly…I'm excited here it is doing, it's to make you uncomfortable.
Seth Price 36:03
Well I appreciate that. (Lo laughs) I don't know if you can see, like, I'm literally like, I don't…I don't like this.
Lo Alaman 36:08
Yeah, well, and that's the point. It's like, it's like surgery. I think we need this, I think we need this. But it's hard. It is hard. So the N words you weren't allowed to say is a book that I had to pray about, and talk with several of my friends about, white and black, and ask if I should put this in a book or not. And I'll talk about why it stayed in a second. But the overall idea is, especially that stanza you brought up, there are parts of not just my vernacular-parts of my culture-that are kind of taboo in my church, and I don't think they're taboo to God.
Which raises a question about who's wrong here? Is it my culture? Is it God? Or is it the church? Something's not meshing square peg round hole. Somehow, there's not a fit. And so the poem is simply raising that question for you to figure out on your own space, right? Like, I've had to wrestle with this. Whenever I'm around my family that's the word I use loosely; it’s a term of endearment. It is a conversation amongst brothers, and sisters and family as part of our language. And yet, I know where I can, and I cannot say it. And that's fine. That's a part of the world we live in. It's broken. It's janky. Same way, I know what towns I can't go to at night. The same way I know what words I can and can't use in front of white company.
And that for me would be okay in like corporate America, but the fact that I bite my tongue in church is an interesting thing. I say, n*gga, when I pray, like, I mean just me and God and I don't have a filter in front of him because he knows me anyway. You know, like, he knows exactly who I am. He knows how I've been shaped. And so as I explore more about why is this particular word, or this particular part of my culture taboo? You learn that there's an ugly history with the word. But the word is more symbolic of just our relationship in general. There has been some ugly history, I think one of the lines is like, there's a pretty hard fork in the road as we've been journeying together. And at some point in time there became a narrative that we are in a place now and those words were from back when we weren't in that place. But we still hold those words. We don't agree that we're in the same place. You know? And I think as a church, there's been a culture built. Culture is not a hard power culture is a soft power, it's, you know, the way in which everybody is moving. It's the words that we do and do not say. There's no sign on the window that say what I can and can't say. But I know it and I feel it. We've created a culture where if I were to go back home and invite all of my friends who still talk the way I talked two years ago, who still talk to talk when I'm around my family, they would not be welcome in my church. I think it's an issue for what the church because they would be welcome at the feet of Jesus. They'd be welcome with their language! And so yeah, I feel like, I want people to wrestle with the same tension that all black folks are wrestling with or at least acknowledge that we're wrestling with this.
Seth Price 39:05
Let me also say I really enjoy poetry and honestly, mostly, rap music is like my resting music because of the poetry; not the garbage on the radio (though). Like I've been listening to nobigdyl. lately. I don't know if you've listened to him at all.
Lo Alaman 39:19
Dilly yeah!
39:20
Yeah, oh my gosh, like, I just laugh. But you have to pay attention cause there's so many subtle references like this. That's just hilarious. But there's a part in there so you know, getting with that I forget the word you said with the screw me pulled back out yet the “smooth mouthed screw”. But I find it hilarious that about five stanzas later, you basically say
I make a poor handyman. My wife fills my toolbox with a list of numbers to contact professionals.
I mean, let me just say that I just like that play on words because it does connect the two because honestly, you kind of change gears there. When it says number four, I don't know what that stands for. I have no idea what that formattings there. I've no idea why the 1,2,3,4 is there. But let me just say how much I really like. I laughed when I got there. I'm like, oh, see, you see what he did? I see what he did there. What is CP time? Are you referencing Roy Wood Jr, is that what that is? Because that's a Daily Show skit. Do you know what I’m talking about or no?
Lo Alaman 40:13
Uh uhh.. (no)
Seth Price 40:14
Oh, you know the the black guy on The Daily Show. He's like the overweight heavyset guy. I think he was also in The Office, right? So he has a thing where he gets, you know, he put his tie on. And he dials it way back in an educated way. And he'll explain like, um, I was watching one for Columbus Day, I think. And he's like, let's talk about explorers, like the black ones, like the first guy that went to the North Pole. He was black, though, so we can't talk about him. And he just kept on going talking about, but it's called CP time. I think stands for colored people time. I'm not sure if that's how you're using it. So when I read that I busted out laughing because all I could see was Roy Wood Jr. in my head on repeat. What is that? He's never explained it. So what do you mean, when you say CP time like?
Lo Alaman 40:57
It is a cultural reference. So if a black person is late somewhere the assumption is he's moving on CP time, it's colored people time! It's a jab. And so that line of the poem where I think I use it is white people showed up on CP time. So there's an assumption that black people are always late to stuff. And we felt like white folks are just now kind of getting on board with some of the social justice thing. It's like, y'all been on CP time? You were coming! The whole time, you were on your way It just took you a little longer to get here.
Seth Price 41:33
And so that's the reason I bring that up. So that whole thing I think that's actually called And Now What, that's what it's called. And so you say in there,
so is it a movement if we go nowhere, amen to the white friends that have joined in in the prayer line, and amen to the blacked out photos that hang like a curtain over your social media platforms.
And you go on to keep going and keep going. But many, I'm fairly certain, that the demographic of this show and just because of the way the world works, that many of the listeners of the show are not going to be not white, like, and that's a bad sentence. So now what like, flesh that out? Because I felt like a lot of people were like, great. I don't know how to do this. Like, I don't know how to do this at my church. Like literally now what, like so as a technical minister, like now what? That's going to be a thing! That’s the name of the show right there. That's the whole podcast right there!
Lo Alaman 42:29
Technical Minister! I have joked about starting a podcast, I might take that dude.
Seth Price 42:30
You can take it. So I stole the name of this show from my same friend, Josh, that when we were talking about things was like, “you can't say that at church!” and I'm like, “That's mine. That's mine.”
Yeah, and I am never giving him any money for that at all.
Lo Alaman 42:49
The podcast is bringing in the dough man.
Seth Price 42:51
Something like that, yeah. So now what it matters even more. It doesn't matter who wins the election. We got problems. It doesn't matter who wins the election, black people are still being murdered; it doesn't matter who wins the election, qualified immunity still the thing. Like it doesn't matter. Churches are still going to divide people to make it the most racially segregated Zoom hour in the country, you know, because it's not the hour anymore it's a zoom hour. So whatever that looks like for the Covid there. So now what?
Lo Alaman 43:20
So I think for me, I've been spending a lot of time in Galatian 3, and trying to wrap my head around Paul's language there. He's like, you know, there's no more slave or free Jew or Gentile, male or female. And that language, coming from Paul, like, is really weird. Because Paul he's very clear that there are still Jew and Gentile. He spends a good chunk of his ministry ministering differently to them. He thinks that they're still male and female, he even has a thing about what males can do what women can do. And so he doesn't seem to be making an argument that we are now genderless, raceless, or ethnicity cleansed, like he's not making any kind of argument for sameness. He's making a solid argument for oneness.
Now, I think the church has kind of confused the two. That there's an expectation that “Okay, now we are gonna be the same. And get on board together”. I'm like, yeah, but I’m still wired the way I'm wired. Like, the language I use, by and large, is not sinful. I'm still gonna be me, like, I'm still gonna be who I'm who I am. And what Jesus is doing, at least for those of us who believe in like the whole resurrection thing is he's making a new humanity. You know, like, it's his whole thing.
1 John 3, he's like, you know, we don't know what we're gonna be yet. But we know when we see him will be as he is like, we’ll be transformed into whatever this new humanity Christ is that's what we're striving towards. And so there is a desire for a future oneness in Christ Jesus, that I'm all about; any attempts at sameness, any attempts at white washing or black washing, which I don't want that is but I've heard counter-arguements in that way.
Seth Price 45:02
Really? How can that…this doesn’t make any sense to me?
Lo Alaman 45:07
But people again, when you when you want to argue with thing they ain’t even on facts anymore.
Seth Price 45:10
But it doesn’t make sense because whiteness is the default textbook, like every page in there is….well this is a different topic.
Lo Alaman 45:24
The point being though is, I think that one of the lines in the poem is like, you know, a bridge is trying to take you somewhere, right? I think we kind of can't get on the same page, we can't even decide on the bridge that we should take, if we can't decide we all would have been at the same place. I don't have any critique for how people try to move forward towards unity and oneness. I openly reject sameness. I openly reject that God wants us to forget who we are ethnically. In the three revelations, people of our nation tribes showing up laying down crowns. Apparently, we come from places, and he's cool with that and he's glorified. And it's all his image. It's all been touched by his hand. He loves it. And so yeah, I feel like, whatever whatever oneness looks like, for our time, in our context, I'm all about that. And I do leave that poem, and the poem is a list of prose, it doesn't offer any answers. It's for you to wrestle with.
Seth Price 46:23
That’s why I asked here so that hopefully you’d answer it.
Lo Alaman 46:25
That's the point though, right? Because again, we want like to be like “hand me an answer.” And my answer is the same thing. Breath of God, like, I don't know how he's gonna do it. I have exhausted myself emotionally, spiritually, like I have no more to give arguments to white folks who don't want to listen. Or new phenomena, black folks who don't believe it's an issue either, Like, I don't have any argument for that. I have a bleeding heart for myself and for you. And I desire for this one. I've seen it. In my context, the area I was discipled in, there was a handful of artists. I was in college, and it was a mixed community. There's a white pastor dude, who is a white dude, you know what I'm saying. But black kids come to his church, white kids and Spanish kids come to his church, and like, we actually had an all Hispanic service that wasn't just like, we're all the Mexicans are go. Like, you know, I'm saying it was like, this is just a, we sing this kind of genre music here. No matter what you like, you come to it. Like I've seen oneness before. That was clunky and weird. But beautiful but that's what it looked like for us. I'm not saying the hassle of that for everybody else. I just caught a glimpse of what oneness could be. And I don't want to settle for anything that's less than. I think sameness is a settling for less than.
Seth Price 47:37
It's been a while since I asked this question. But it matters. It's not theological at all, but it's extremely important. So you're in Texas now. From California and Mississippi. So you've been all over the continent. So being that I'm from Texas, I take this personal and depending on the answer, I might just hit Delete on the whole thing. What-A-burger or In and Out Burger.
Lo Alaman 48:04
(cackles)
Alright, so I'm a loyalist, as we talked about with basketball, I have to say In and Out.
Seth Price 48:10
Deleted.
Lo Alaman 48:12
And can I make a counter argument? Because here's where I get into like the whole like, now I gotta bring facts up.
Seth Price 48:20
This is how I feel!
Lo Alaman 48:23
Dude, but Texas is a cult. And people here like I could say I like In and Out more. I like it! I like what I like! I like it more. But there's no space for that here. Like you have a soul if you don't see these come and take your tattoos on cuz…like you can't not like my burger! But you got better fries, I’ll give you that.
Seth Price 48:48
I haven't had a What-A-burger in 20 years, but I think that's why I like it so much. Because like I hadn't tasted it forever. I'm asking for the drip of water on my tongue. And that drip of water is What-a-burger, you know, at the moment. You see what I did? That's blasphemous right there. So, alright, serious. So a question I've been asking everyone this year. When you say God to someone or the divine or whatever word you want to say? What are you saying? Like, what is that? How is that?
Lo Alaman 49:24
Man, I think that when I have a conversation with my mom, I was raised with just mom, single parent home, all that stuff like that. I have a conversation with my mom. I can tell the spaces when it's just love. When it's just for me. I can tell when fear gets into the conversation. I can tell the tone of her voice. I can tell when she has an agenda. Like I think she's crazy for me, but even she's a human. You know? I had a conversation with my mom when I was 17 years old. I said “Mom, I want to be a pilot”. And she was like, you know, “black men in America need a degree. No pilot school. You're going to college”.
I heard heard her voice coded in fear, you know? Now that was my mom that was like that fear in that. Now on the flip side I came and told my mom I'm adopting a little girl and there was nothing but like joy and excitement. And not that the circumstances were not necessarily what it is but I can hear in her the difference of “this is just my love for you coming out” versus “this is my fear/my concern” whatever. Same thing in my wife, my daughter, same thing in this conversation here. I feel like whatever that genuine, pure, sense of life-that energy can't be created or destroyed or something in fact pure about where we come from something pure about what love does and how it connects people. I think that is a window into who God is. And it's a bread crumb of sorts back to who he is ultimately. When I think of God I think of the pureness of life the pureness of love. I think of holiness not in like the you know, I'm behaving but holy in kind of like an Old Testament sense worship; it's other, it's what we're all surrounded by but we're all chasing towards it. It's not fully here yet. So yeah, that's a loaded way of saying I think it’s Jesus. I think Jesus embodies that in a way that only he has done.
I think of you know that 1 Corinthians 13 like this is a description of who love is and just sounds like a savior.
So yeah, that's my jumbled up leaning towards God.
Seth Price 51:29
So where do people go? I tried to find you on Twitter couldn't find you. Maybe you're not on Twitter. But it's like so like, where do you want people to go get the book, etc. Where do they go?
Lo Alaman 51:37
So wesangadirge.com You can find the book there. You can follow me on the Instagrams @lothepoet You can send your boy an email. I love these conversations. Lothepoet@gmail.com. And yeah, I think I'm still on Facebook, Lo Alaman. I'm not cool enough for Twitter man is a place to be super opinionated and I got enough of that.
Seth Price 52:02
Oh, I yeah, so I don't quite understand Twitter. I mean, Instagram. Twitter's become my places like Facebook's where I go, because that's that the algorithm that runs the world at the moment. But Twitter's like where I go and put it this way. So a theologian, basically, let me back up, all those links are gonna be in the show notes for the laziness that for people need to go down and just click the button because I will say, you know, that's the world we live in, and we need it easy. So I'll make it easy.
However, um, yeah. I someone said, you know, put a song in my head and five words. So on Twitter, I said, “Never gonna give you up” to which their responses were like, “Oh, he see what he did there”. And then my second response was just a GIF of him Rick rolling. That's Twitter to me. I don't know how to do that on Instagram. You know what I mean?
Lo Alaman 52:52
Maybe it's a generational thing, but Instagram, it's that and more. And we're such a visual society now. Like, I don't know, I don't have the things I think I know. But you show me an image in my mind is goes to those places.
Seth Price 53:11
Yeah. Well, good, man. I really appreciate you coming on. Really enjoyed it. So so very much been a pleasure, man. I like to do it again. I don't know what we'll talk on. But we'll figure it out. I'd love to do it again. I really…I don't always laugh in these. So I like laughing
Lo Alaman 53:25
I’m about it, I’m so about it.
Seth Price 53:35
As I've done with many of the poets, or artists that have come on to the show, I asked Lo if he would read a bit from his book. And so I found this specific section extremely powerful. I hope you do too.
Lo Alaman 53:57
Ain’t the keyboard tired?
Ain’t it sick of being forced to sound like something it isn’t?
Ain’t it sustained for too long?
Ain’t its buttons been pressed too much?
Ain’t it fed up with being a plaything for inexperienced hands?
Let it respond
Let it raise the volume on its frustration
Let the depths of its lament be transposed
To a key that silence can’t lock up
Let it hurt out loud
Let it be loud enough for all to hear
What a beating the drum takes
How oppressive the sticks must seem
Could see one strike as coincidence
But how long before we call the cadence systemic?
How many blows can it take before it can’t anymore?
Let it speak out
Let percussion come from its protest
Let it sound off
Let it push back
Let a rhythm be born of how many times it says no
And doesn’t crack
And doesn’t break
And still is
So tight the violin’s strings are pulled
So firm its neck is held
So sharp the bow cuts along its vulnerable body
So agonizing it must be to be sawed into
Let it cry
Let its aching be an audible groan
Let the sound it makes unsettle whoever hears it
Whoever won’t tune it out
Whoever will listen
I’ve known Life to be a sweet song
I’ve known Living to be a complicated sheet of music
I’ve known many to fear Christ to be a critic of suffering
Forgetting He too was a man
Broken into a sad song
His body
Laid into a silent tomb
His resurrection
An invitation to keep quiet no longer
The Father is a good Conductor
He has staff lines for hands
An honest space for us to place all of our notes
Whether beautiful or broken
I’ve sung many sorrows to Him
I’ve been a playlist of emotions
I cry out before Him time and time again
And each time
He listens
Seth Price 56:07
This year, and honestly, many of the years in the past have brought so much sorrow and pain and angst and fears and that's okay. I believe that the God that we worship is big enough for that and if he's not, if she's not, if it's not, it's not one that's worth, our adoration, our faith, our worship, it's just not. I'm so thankful for people like Lowe for bringing a text that can allow me to embrace lament but also look for hope and joy. Today's music was by Branan Murphy, you're gonna find links to his music on the playlist for the show.
Remember to rate and review and if you're able to support the show on Patreon or any other way that you're able, I will talk with you next week.
Be blessed