Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening and is transcribed from Patreon version of the conversation. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Zach Bolen 0:01
I mean, I think the most disheartening thing for me about the church is that it's, it's when you look at it now it's like, really the question that's being asked. It's not phrased this way, because people would say this too crass, but it's like what's good for business? And I think that's the part for me that I really struggle with is it doesn't it's not good for any business to release anything that says we were wrong. Or, hey, I don't I don't have an answer for you. Because now sudden, you're not the, you're not the well, that people are coming to. And I think that that harms a lot of people. When we sort of treat it like a business.
Seth Price 0:50
Give my eyes you give. It's hard to be an honest. It really is. I know one of the rarest forms of honesty, is in music. Music has an ability to take you away to a place that you didn't know that you were heading to. It has the ability to hold you in ways that you didn't know that you needed to be held. It'll piss you off, and it'll make you feel so so good. And that is why I like talking with musicians. So my guest today. Let me back up. By the way, this is the can I say this at church podcast, I got really excited. I'm Seth, your host. And the guest today is Zach Bolin, who is the frontman of the band citizens. He has a big, big story that we didn't really dive into here, because that's been done on a lot of other shows. But he has a big story. It's related to Mars Hill, Mark Driscoll, yada, yada, yada. That's not what I was interested in, though. So I had Zach on, talk a lot about the church doubt and faith, heaven, and hell. And what God is, and I really enjoyed it. mixed into this episode is some of the music of citizens some of their most recent music. And so it's been a while since I've put new music on the show, mostly because of time. For those of you that have been longtime listeners, you will see that I have slowed down. There are a lot of reasons for that most of it is just life and there's just a lot going on, right for all of us. But I am rambling and digressing. And so I would rather not do that anymore. Let's dive right into the episode here. Zack
Unknown Speaker 2:39
bully. This is true. It's incomprehensible. I don't have to imagine what I would lose. Cuz I'm never leaving
Seth Price 3:00
Zach Bolin Welcome to the show. I meant to tell you, I don't know how to edit video. So I'm not going to and I already hit record. So that's in it.
Zach Bolen 3:10
I will take my shirt off anything. It's
Seth Price 3:12
whatever, whatever it takes to get people to listen to what you're saying. Or just you know, to support you that would do what you feel like you need to do. Whatever you and your family are comfortable with. I will keep I will stay fully clothed. So anyway, so when people when people say, Hey, what is Zach Bolin? Like? What is that?
Zach Bolen 3:38
What is the Zach Bolin? Well, if you're an Enneagram person, I am I am an eight, which I have learned to wear with pride because a lot of people have had terrible eight experiences and I'm trying to maybe show that it doesn't always have to be bad experiences with eights. Everybody has a good side. And I think a lot of that is because of how I grew up. I think my anus was formed a lot by a lost my dad when I was six. And that kind of put in me sort of this can't trust anybody sort of mentality. It's really honestly that losing my dad is kind of what led me to faith a little bit but it was more about it was more of a thing. I just wanted to be with my dad. So Jesus God, all of that was just my way to get to him. Yeah. So that kind of messed me up for a lot of years. But needless to say, that has sort of shaped so much of my life and it's what made me want to do music. Because I found music is a really helpful way I didn't realize it realize it at the time. But as time went on, it was a really cathartic They can helpful way to process through that loss. And not just like the, like the loss of my dad, but sort of the things that were would never, I'd never experienced, right. And I keep writing about all that it keeps him full, it's still a part of so much of what I write. And so anyway, and then, you know, over the years, played in bands did music wrote songs, but that's always been a huge part of my life is writing music. And honestly, as weird as it is, I mean, I pretty much just write about, I write a lot about faith, probably more from this perspective of struggling in it. And I write a lot about love and relationships and all that kind of stuff, too. So I just kind of camped out in those two areas, and that's worked out. Alright.
Seth Price 5:50
So, yeah, that's, um, so when it comes to writing music, something you said there piqued my interest. And so is it playing the music that you find is like therapeutic and cathartic? Or is it writing the lyrics? Because I feel like those are two different muscles.
Zach Bolen 6:05
Okay, it is probably more the writing side. But it also is very, like I am. If I don't feel emotionally connected to something, and music really helps me get there a lot of times I, I find myself especially even, you know, as the years go on you do you write with other people. And I've been in situations where sometimes it can be, if it doesn't feel like it's saying something that can be really hard for me, but then if musically, it doesn't move me, I don't care what it's saying. It's like, we might as well just be talking. And I just think music is such a it's such an interesting process. And so I don't know, I guess sometimes I'm more or less trying to make myself cry. And I don't really cry ever. So you're
Seth Price 6:59
not successful, then you make you try to make yourself cry, and then you don't cry.
Zach Bolen 7:03
I haven't written anything that made me know that seems frustrating. Trying to get those tears back out. But yeah, I do, I do really value what something is saying. But I would say this too. i It can also be it can, it can trip me up sometimes too, because I get too lost in the weeds and kind of lose some of just the emotion that's there and what something's trying to convey. And I feel like two songs, Faith songs, songs in the church, especially. I get I find myself getting more and more bummed out a little bit on a lot of it. And even for myself, because I'm realizing that so much of it is it's either like saying everything, trying to say everything in one song, or not really saying anything at all
Seth Price 7:54
you are or the song I feel like that we already singing other songs
Zach Bolen 7:58
that are being sung are kind of like that, you know? I'm not saying it's exclusively that, but I do think that there's not a lot in the middle there. And so and I've I've been I've written on either side of that. So I'm trying to find my way through all that personally right now, too.
Seth Price 8:16
Yeah, yeah. So you've had a lot come out on the internet about a lot of that. Some of you are personal story with faith. And we don't have to rehash a lot of that. But I do have a question about some of it. And it will lead me into my first question. So one of the things that so I also play music at my church, I play the guitar, mostly, but I can fake other things. As long as I just have to hit the main stuff like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna play but you'll think that I am, but I'm not. I'm not playing. Yeah, mostly the guitar, I can do whatever you want me to do with it. And so I personally, just myself, and I think I've said this on the show a few times, though, I've never really broken my story apart crazy amount. Went to Liberty after growing up in an independent regular Baptist Church, which is like, Southern Baptists are not quite conservative enough, like we're going to need to lean in more, leaning more in western Texas and then got out of school. And I was like, Y'all lied to me. Like, this is not a faith. This is something else. I this is not I can't do it. And I know some of our circles would have overlapped. Actually, it sounds like they already did with some of the people that you know that I also know, which is fun. But like like so you have a past history with Mars Hill. Which for those listening that's, that's Mark Driscoll and so I think some people now they know that name, and they don't know what Mars Hill is unless they listen to other things on the internet. But like your faith overall just seems from as I've listened to your music, and I don't remember, maybe I'm maybe I'm wrong here. The website didn't used to be we are citizens.
Zach Bolen 9:54
It did. Yeah. So it was that it still is technically we are citizens. I think we're
Seth Price 9:59
back In the day, probably like four years ago, one of you responded to me and actually allowed me to use your music and an episode. I don't remember because it's actually, the the website address, like the person that responded to me is named people. So I don't know who that is. It may be you, I don't know. Might have been me. It might have been me. Yeah. So it wasn't signed by anyone. It's just Sure. So thank you for that. Yeah, that was when I put a lot more effort into finding lyrics that fit the topic. And I don't know what episode that was, I could figure it out and send it to you later if you're curious. But I can't remember, but it would have been four years ago. And I've lost a lot of sleep and a lot of hair since then. Yeah. But my I say all that to say my personal faith has changed, like exponentially. And I use that term intentionally being that I like math and numbers like exponentially as though like not a lot, like exponential, I think is the right word for the change. So you say in one of your songs, and your most recent EP, in which is the song is everything and more so in verse two, so that song overall seems to be about being honest with yourself about faith and God, at least that's what I hear in it. And that's how music works. So that I get to be right. You can say it's about something else. But I, you know, I feel like that's my music worse. So is that hopefully that is what it's about? Is that what it's about? Yeah. So see, I was listening. So you actually say the words in verse two, what a thrill letting go to admit that we don't know. And then you go on to break that apart. But I'm curious about that word thrill. Because when I heard it, I rewound it and listen to it again. I was like, that's not how I felt, though. That is how I feel. I think now, like looking back after 10 years of, oh, that was awful. That was horrible. But thrilled is a really weird word choice for me. When I think about changing my views on the divine. Yeah. Can you break that open a bit?
Zach Bolen 11:50
Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting, because you're right. I don't know that I would use that word, all the time. But on that particular day, I did. And I still feel this. And I think a lot of that was because it still is for me, so much of my understanding of who God is, and or how I understood God to be. I just have over the past probably eight or nine years realized so much of that was just informed by what someone told me. And it turned out that a lot of the people that gave me this framework for who God is, they either had like a significant fall or as time went on, I just grew to not really, I don't know, believe them as much. And that became really challenging for me, because then I had to ask the question, well, what do I believe? And, of course, I did what a lot of people in my, in my case have done sounds like you too, or I? Maybe not exactly. But you know, you, you sort of are just going on with your way, and then all of a sudden, something happens. And now you're asking these questions, and you're sort of like, teetering. A little bit like, oh, my gosh, there's all this just
Seth Price 13:17
made up lie. Yeah, he's all made up.
Zach Bolen 13:18
Yeah. And you and then you kind of you go back like, no, no, no, no, no. And it's, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. And you sort of have to convince yourself that, you know, whatever, you got to convince yourself that the things you were believing all that kind of stuff, or you're right. And then I don't know, I remember for me, there was a particular point. It was after Marcel, but it wasn't, I wouldn't say it was because of Marcel. I think Marcel certainly aided in it. But there was other things going on. And I remember really feeling like, I don't know if I believe it all anymore. Like I just did this the first time. And that felt scary. I remember telling my wife that really freaked her out too. And, and but what's interesting is, for whatever reason, it's funny too, because we talked about Dan Koch earlier, he's a good friend of mine. We went to church together right after I left Marcel. We're at the same church together. And there are people like him, who would ask me interesting questions. Got me thinking. And I am really, really grateful because the church we landed at wound up being a really safe place to just ask questions and be listened to not and not being not really given a whole lot of answers, which is, I think, what I needed, I needed to just be okay to sit in attention. And so, when I, you know, as time moved on, I never, I never really went all I'm done. All in on, I'm done. I kind of just kept moving. What I realized in hindsight, moving further away from where I had always been, and where that has brought me now is to this place of feeling a lot more free. In the way that I view God, and the way that I've used scripture, especially, and the way that I view the church, and just realizing that man, as I deconstruct a lot of those things, or dissect a lot of those things, whatever word you want to use, I'm realizing that, or I realized that so much of these things that are really important, are oftentimes just like a philosophy or a tradition or an idea. And so I found myself over the past few years, especially feeling really excited about the fact that there is something more to all this than what I had been previously privy to, if you will, not that I wasn't privy to it, I just didn't take it upon myself to do the work. And so what I did have, like the past three years, I've just really camped out a lot in the Gospels. Because I had this realization that and I think this is true that we sort of say, Oh, well, well, I got the A, Jesus figured out that school, it's cool. And then we move on. And I realized I'd done the same thing, I was like, I really just want to know more of who Jesus is. And I've just tried to do that more and more reading through the Gospels chronologically. And, and through that process. To be honest, I've just developed more of a love for Jesus, more of a love for unbelief, that we are all contributing to just this work of, of redeeming and making things new. And I'm excited about that more than I ever was my life and find them as a thrill to be like, okay, when I have got to the I don't know, door, rather than hanging my head and being really disappointed, I've, when I've walked through it, I've often times discovered something better than the thing that I was even looking for. And to me, that's really thrilling.
Seth Price 17:04
Yeah, I like that, that thought of, I don't know, door, because when you said it, all I could think of is it's like a Looney Tunes cartoon, where you open the door, and there's another door, and then you walk through that door, and there's another door, and then another door, and then you come to a room and there's like eight doors and you open that door and you're like, well, now I'm back at the first door, am I? And I think that that's okay, I think a place to open openly ask questions and expect that. I think you're right that I felt like it was an ex pastor that I had. And he one time said, If pastors were honest, I would tell you, I don't know. But oftentimes we lean into, I need to be certain so that you're certain because I am certain that we have bills to pay, and then I have a mortgage to pay. And I do need you to need me to know the answers. Because if you were healthy, you would probably like the church congregation should be changing over every four or five months, because we should get you in a good spot and say, can you go be a Christian now? Like, can you go? Can you go do that? Yeah. So you said you were gonna say that again?
Zach Bolen 18:06
I said, I just have so many thoughts on on what you just said. I think that's hit me on one. Yeah. So true. Well, I mean, the first one is like, it really is a I mean, I think the most disheartening thing for me about the churches that it's, it's when you look at it now it's like, really the question that's being asked, it's not phrased this way, because people would say, That's too crass. But it's like what's good for business? And I think that's the part for me that I really struggle with is it doesn't, it's not good for any business to release anything that says we were wrong. Or, hey, I don't I don't have an answer for you. Because now sudden, you're not the, you're not the well, that people are coming to. And I think that that harms a lot of people. When we sort of treat it like a business. I remember, after Marcel someone gave me and it's I grew up in Maryland, right up the street from Eugene Peterson's church and.
Seth Price 19:11
And finally would go back.
Zach Bolen 19:14
I would, and he, I remember, in his memoir, someone sent me his memoir after I left Maurice Hill, like you should read this. And I mean, I don't know that that book was a friend to me. And so many great ways. But I remember him talking about back in the 80s. There were these consultants coming around to all the churches and this sort of neighborhood of Bel Air and telling all of them, hey, the church is changing. And it's because we're sort of adopting more of sort of the business model. And don't you want to be a church that grows and sort of kind of saying, You need to get people in your doors and all these benefits that can come from that. And I remember him saying, you know, when we got together, these local pastors, we get together and we all look to each other and we knew that we were being fed a lie. Yeah. And I just think about that like that. was in the 80s. And all these years later, seems like so much of the church has become the thing that they were saying. Yeah, it feels like that a lie. Yeah. And I just wonder what, how much different things could be, if we had listened more to the Eugene Peterson's of, of our day.
Seth Price 20:17
Yeah, the eyes struggle at times to actually figure out like, like, so just in a moment of honesty. So I'm on a committee right now to do like listening sessions at my church, because our pastor left four or five months ago, and so we need to figure out what the church is looking for. And what the Church wants to be in like, a decade, to actually figure out who should who should be here who should be, you know, on clergy here. And, and like, I still, if any of them are listening, I'd say to your face as well, like, I don't know what the purpose of churches anymore. Outside of Sunday, like I say that a bit tongue in cheek, like our church does a lot of tremendous things. But that's because we don't have a lot of debt, if any debt at all. And so we're able to do things, but I don't think most churches serve a purpose outside of a tax donation. From what I can see from the way that community because if churches were being churches, communities would be changed. And instead it is boys and girls, it's it's other organizations that are changing communities, and not the churches. And I feel like if we're following the Holy Spirit, like we should be in front of the change and leading it from the front, instead of coming along after like, yeah, we'll help pay for the food kitchen. Or you know what I mean?
Unknown Speaker 21:29
For the anxious, this fighting force will be Jesus name. In Jesus
Seth Price 21:44
name, this is the part of the show that there should be ads, right, because we live in a capitalistic world, and everything has to get paid for. But that's just not the way that I want to do it. So if you feel led, support the show on Patreon, I do absolutely need you. But if you don't, I'm not gonna put any ads here, because I just don't feel like it. Hopefully you do, though, the amount that you support will not change the benefits that you get. And so with that said, let's get back to the show.
Unknown Speaker 22:25
testify for the streets to flow with just this change in Jesus name.
Seth Price 22:49
I have a question about the Gospels. So because you know, you would you would deconstructing there. So it was just the gospel of Mary Magdalene, and just the Gospel of Thomas. Right. Like, that's where you found home? Just those two, because that's how heretics
Zach Bolen 23:02
roll. Right? So they were all that's all I read. I didn't read anything else.
Seth Price 23:08
There might be other gospels that I'm unaware of that I can't think off the top of my head. But yeah, so what then? What then does America do, in your opinion, as a musician that has also seen how the meat is made? Or the sausage is made? Or however that that analogy goes? Like, what then are we to do as believers that still are going to do church of some shape or form?
Zach Bolen 23:34
Hmm, is a great question. I mean, I, the biggest thing that I Okay, I'll put it like this. I, okay. Prior to COVID really setting in especially like with people. You know, we were living in Seattle at the time. So probably a little bit more strict in some areas as far as like, just isolation and all that kind of stuff. And so we weren't meeting for a long time as church. And I remember at the time, I was reading these different books. And they were really helpful because it's kind of like those moments in life where you're thinking about something. And then you read something or listen to something or song or something. Oh, my gosh, it's exactly. I've been thinking that exact thing. They're saying it. And like the here's somebody that has actually studied this, and sort of confirming this idea that I had, and that feels a little less lonely when you get to those moments in life. I remember having one of those moments, and really feeling like this sort of excitement about oh, man, maybe this whole thing where we have to sort of not be gathering could be a really beautiful thing where we reflect and we reimagine and re we just sort of kind of aren't afraid to take every step. thinking that we do as a church, put it under the microscope and really ask the question, Why? Why is this important? And I remember finally, we get back together as a church. And it's not a critique of the church, because I think a lot of churches did this, and I understand why. But we get there. And we have a Sunday together. And we do the same thing we always did. And I wish I remember just sitting there feeling kind of like, I remember feeling discouraged by dogs. I was like, man, we just had six, seven, almost eight months of not meeting. And the best thing we could come up with was to do the same thing we did for Yeah, you know, and I just that really kind of was that sort of solidified. For me, that moment of why I really felt like, there, there has to be some willingness to start asking the question of what things are worth. Maybe not doing anymore. And I think until we do that, I feel like more and more people. I mean, I'll be honest, most of my friends, most of my friends are struggling with the church right now. Most of my friends are struggling with the church. Our I would say aren't necessarily being heard in those frustrations and struggles. And I think that in and of itself is a really big problem. But I think that what's probably going to naturally happen is, and I hate that this is true, but I think enough people are just going to kind of get that up and leave. And that usually causes change. But I hate that. That's what causes change. Yeah.
Seth Price 26:38
I think you're right. Yeah. And that's, that's our generation. Yeah. And I think it's because of the access that we have to other information that is not just coming from the pastor's mouth. Phyllis tickle wrote a book on like, the, you know, you're familiar with the book, or no,
Zach Bolen 26:53
I'm an author. But
Seth Price 26:55
yeah, yeah. So she wrote a book that says, like, every 500 years or so roughly, like there's a massive shift. And so when you think about it, like, there was 500 years, so the printing press, and then after that 500 years is the Protestant Reformation. And then 500 more years is something else. And then we're now at the next 500 years, or no, so worth the 3500 years, like 500 years ago from the Protestant Reformation was like, a year and a half ago. You know what I mean, if I feel like that's right, because I remember going to pick pumpkins that day when I realized I'm like, that makes sense that the math Oh, just because of the access to, yeah, well, I mean, I can if I want to, I can, like, I can go find some of the writers from the, the Ethiopian or the Syriac, like church fathers that were not approved at the time, and you're like, Oh, I actually can get a lot online behind what this guy is saying about God. Why did we say here? He she, they, why couldn't they? Why is this not translated in English, but I can, you know, anyway, I can I can get by you, I wanted to, I want to ask you a theological question. Because, you know, the name in the show is can I say this at church, but it's because of a lyric that you have. And so again, I want to lean into your most recent EP, which I feel like I should have said, what the name of as it is already. So that's called 1000 shores. And I would like to ask about, like, what and why that like that EP exists. I do like EPS, because I feel like they're the right length of time. But in there, there's a song called imagination. And so you talk about heaven. I'm curious what that is for you. Because it has almost two personalities in the chorus where you say head high in the clouds. I don't want to wait, let's go right now. haven't come down. But at the end, you say you're in my imagination. So what exactly is heaven?
Zach Bolen 28:39
Heaven. I mean, I'll just go with where how I interpret heaven. I, as someone who I mean, I've had a fascination with it since I was six when my dad died. Right. And it's, it's been reframed and redefined for me in so many ways over the years. I think where I land on it most now is that we, I mean, I feel like there's so many brilliant writers. There's this one guy, Robert Kaplan, who he has this book on his many amazing books, but this one book on parable of the kingdom parables of the kingdom. And he kind of talks he makes the case with how the ever since sort of, however you choose to look at like the Genesis story and Jesus there, sorry, God's promise to Adam and Eve. The Covenant if you will, that like that's all we've always been, from that point living in this new kingdom was just that when Jesus came, that's when it became something that was like tangible and was like the visible representation. So I think if that's true, if Jesus is saying the kingdom of God is at hand, well, then we're already we're living if we're if we believe that we live in Christ, Christ is in us, then the kingdom is among us. And so I think about heaven as, as sort of this license, if you will, to dream to hope to believe that there is something more than what we're seeing before our eyes. And so head high in the clouds head under the sand. I don't know which direction it is. But it's like, it's more or less the fact that I think that our obsession with I don't know, I heard somebody say, I read something other day or somebody even wrote, like, God wants this or God's god, this is why God does this. And I just find myself just like, wincing at their statements now, because, again, this author Robert Kaplan, he says this great thing, he just says, Well, maybe the better thing is to say, like, when we read something, or we say something, it's more like, God wants this or whatever that means, you know, like, because at the end of the day, we don't know. And I think that that is freaks a lot of people out, which is why we sort of create these systems and the structures that sort of give us this false sense of confidence. And I just wanted to write a song about how I just think I, regardless of what I don't know what its gonna be like, or look like or all that, but I do live with this faith, and this belief that there will be eternal peace. So even in the verses of the song, like, are we going to stay up all life dancing? Or are we going to, you know, what are we going to do? Like? I don't know. But I kind of like to think that the things that I love doing here on earth that bring me a lot of joy, and for all of us, like, I kind of think that there's going to be some part of that for us ahead. Yeah. Wherever, whatever, that wherever that is meant to be or look like here on this earth or some other plays? I don't know. But I really do believe that there's something better.
Seth Price 32:11
Yeah. Yeah. You didn't ask what I believe. But I'll tell you. And I only say it because you and I experiences are similar. So I did not lose my dad when I was six. But I did lose him two years ago, two years ago, on August, August 18th. At about 1046 in the morning, anyway, sitting in the sitting in the room, and I have a decent memory. So I can I can remember all that. But he and I often did not agree on a lot of theology, because he agreed with a lot of what I used to believe. But he also taught me, you should honestly not like you shouldn't buy State Farm or eat mayonnaise, because I do you know, you should, you should know why you believe what you believe, which we feel is also biblical. I feel like it's in Peter or something. I'm not the best Bible, Bible sword drill kind of person. But here's what I think. But I don't like what I think because I don't know what it means for my relationship with my dad. So I think that if you and I are created in an image of a God that creates just incessantly can't help, like, just have to, like I and I made this, like I made this MacBook, I did not. And it's good. I made this pin, it writes amazing. This is good. I made that child. That's good. I made this decision. And so the result of that is that it's good. I think that the kingdom of heaven or heaven at all, is something that you and I are actively making right now. Yeah, and that. But that, if that's true, I don't know that that means there's anywhere that I'm going, right, because it's something I'm doing in partnership with you, because we bear an image of God. But I don't know what that means for those from that I want to see again, and my older view of heaven. And I don't know how to reconcile those two, I actually think about it quite a bit. It helps that I like a 35 minute drive to work. So I have a lot of time to just sit in the car with no radio, but I don't just be an honest act like I don't know what to do with that. I also think the same thing about hell, like I can make a decision and that creates a literal hell for you and I because I mean, shoot California broke record yesterday for heat. Yay. But but there was also a shooting in like last night or this morning, I forget where it was a 19 year old teenager went on a rampage. I want to say it was Memphis like those decisions create a hell, not somewhere that I'm going. It's something that I'm making, and we all die and suffer because of it, like relationships die. And you know what I mean? So I've said that on other episodes, I don't think I've ever expounded on it as much as that. But I don't know how to reconcile that. Like, just me. I don't know. Yeah.
Zach Bolen 34:40
I mean, I think that that's interesting to think about. And I wouldn't even I don't know, I don't disagree with any of that because I feel I feel that in a really similar way. I guess for me to the NGO aspect of it even just in the context of of that of the song It's like, the movement I feel is that while is maybe even just more time that I will I start young, and maybe if I live long enough, I'm old. And something, you know, like there is progress happening. And I do feel that and in so many ways. Gosh, we use this language all the time, my wife and I have, we just want our like, we have this cabin in this property. And I think about this with our music, and we just are always using language, we want to be a bridge. Yeah, and I just want, the bridge is really more or less. You could even use a table, for example, but just want to be a place that's bringing people together from lots of different perspectives. And so I think that we always are moving in some direction. And we're doing things because the things that we're doing, and this is the part that blows my mind is going back to the whole credit in the image of God. If we actually are going to take at face value, and Jesus says, he says it John says in the Gospel, Johnny says, If I'm to be raised up, which he was, then then I'll draw people to myself. I don't know how and I don't know any other way to interpret that then all people? Yeah. And I'm sure and I mean, I've read I mean, I don't I feel like there's a lot of people, even scholars that wouldn't argue with that. And for that reason, I think, well, what does that mean for someone who never knows about Jesus? Like, are they as image bearers of God in some redemptive way? Making, bringing heaven on earth to? Yeah, and I don't have an answer for that. But I do think about that. And I think, in general, that's the part that gets me excited is that there is some future time and space that exists somewhere where there is this sort of aha moment where everything is going to be? Not Not that it will all make sense, because I'm sure we'll spend eternity living and just the wonder of all that, but I do think that there is something about the realization of, like, all creation, like the redemptive aspect of like, God, redeeming all of creation, that part for me. I just feel like that's not really something as the church in general, especially within the evangelical church, I just don't think we honestly believe that. Yeah. Even though it's, it's in Scripture, and it's something that Jesus said, and I've personally witnessed it in different ways.
Seth Price 37:53
We, you know, we only preach Jesus at Easter, right, the rest of the time we preach, Paul, maybe James, we're not getting into Hebrews though, because there's too much of what we should be doing. So we're not going to talk about that. We needed that question marks there. Yeah. And you want me to do something. It's Sunday and footballs on in an hour, I don't have time to do something. So you had said earlier as well, that someone you read someone say, or you didn't like the language about, I know what God would do here. Like I know what God wants or God wants this. I would say that the type of people that I've met that talk like that, take a very literal view of the Bible. Which is funny because it's not written in English. And like literally, there's four Greek words for love. Yeah, only one of them is the kind of love that you and I have in English. The other four are like a malicious act of love that you have to intention. Anyway, that's not the topic, but God doesn't seem to know if you take a literal view of Scripture what God wants to do because like, he'll be like, I'm gonna kill them all. Moses be like, That's not you. Don't you remember when you said you wouldn't do that? Alright, fine. I won't kill them all. Like, if God knows what he wants to do, he seems to be awful fickle, which I'm aware that that feels really flippant with a Divine Being but that's what it says like he changes his mind all the all the dang time. Which just makes me laugh. So if people were going to die, so I do so that was a lot of heaviness there for I don't have a theology degree. I don't know if you do but that was a lot of heaviness there. But I don't think you need one to talk about God. So I wanted to ask you a question just as kind of let's just reset the palate and I like to have sarcasm and jokes and so I'm curious as to why you either have no respect for grammar or you don't care about grammar because in the in the song hide no more you say I don't want to hide no more. And that just I liked the way that you sing it. I like the lyrics. That's actually my favorite song on the EP. However, that's just not correct grammatically. And so I'm wondering why you have such carelessness with English language. Yep.
Zach Bolen 39:51
And I can pinpoint for you exactly why. So. You know, I think that the Maryland accent for all the things that I I love about it. It's one of the the craziest, I think accents out there, because it's pulling in Jersey. It's pulling in the South. It's got some, like the Dutch Pennsylvania kind of thing going on too. So there's a lot of words that we say say wrong. And so I just blame it on the educational system.
Seth Price 40:19
Public education
Zach Bolen 40:22
taught me to feel comfortable saying hide no more. I blame them. I can't take credit for that. Yeah. And
Seth Price 40:29
who was your who are your high school English teachers? Again, I'm gonna track them down in Maryland. I'm sure they're on the education.
Zach Bolen 40:36
Man. She's even around and it's her fault. She didn't know what she would say. Yeah,
Seth Price 40:43
it's definitely her fault. She should own that. Yeah, actually, if you ever, like win, like a Grammy or something like if that's the thing that you win, you need to make sure that she's in I would also like to thank, for my use of the words because I taught good.
Zach Bolen 40:55
She taught me she taught me a lot of colorful language. Actually, I'll never forget that. So. So anyway, she, she helped me. Yeah,
Seth Price 41:03
if you were to pick one song, of all the songs that you've ever written, that you were like, Hey, if you want to know about me, or whatever you want people to know about about God, about loss, about life about love about whatever? What's the one song that you're like, just listen to this one. If you listen to nothing else, take four minutes of your day and listen to this.
Zach Bolen 41:27
I'm doubting doubts, doubting from our third
Seth Price 41:31
album, okay. I've not listened to that. So I will listen to that today.
Zach Bolen 41:35
It's from our album, the mirror dimly. It's a big sort of, well, it's a big record about doubt, and dealing with all kinds of stuff. But that song for me, it's a pretty, it's like a, it's kind of has like an Americana vibe to it really begin doing? And it's sort of like a what a thrill thing, like we talked about earlier. It's just kind of boiling it all down and realizing that I'm loved no matter what. Yeah, that's something I live by. And that's how I parent my kids and stuff. Yeah,
Seth Price 42:07
that's cool. Cool. So I like to end so I'll make this a last question just because I want to be respectful of your time, as well as mine. So well, there will be two questions, because at the end, you know, it's a podcast. So we get to say, how do people support you and all that stuff? So I'll just let you answer however, you can think about that. But this is actually my favorite question that I ask of everyone. And I started it a few years ago. And then just so you kind of know, Zack, and for anyone that has like a lot of people don't go back and listen to past episodes. If you want to get a good feel for the overall heart of this show. You just go back last year and the year before the last episode of the season is everyone's answers to this question edited together in a random order that my children helped me pick. And it ends up being like an hour long. I'm not speaking really, except for at the beginning to say, hey, we did a Happy New Year. Let's roll. That's about that's about the intro. And so the question is this, but it also paints a massively beautiful narrative of contrarian views that somehow all line up. I don't know how it just because it's not me, I literally pick the order at random. So when you try to like put words around whatever the heck God is, like, what is that?
Zach Bolen 43:23
God God is the that's a beautiful question. When I think about what God is God is the reason that I have an understanding of what love is at all. That in the midst of all the different loss that I've experienced in life, what I can't explain is that when I look back on terrible events, and I see the things that came out of all that God is the is the thing or the who, or the what that is giving me the perspective to see that somehow, even the pain in my life is not just left as that but become something so much more. And in my case, has become a source of beauty. And in new life, that I didn't expect. A great example that was like losing my dad, of course, I don't wouldn't want my dad to die. But I look at all the things that have come in my life since and I see God orchestrating that God is the hands that have comforted me, the years that have listened to me. God is in all that God is with me when I sit on my porch and listen to the birds and the trees in the wind. God is present wherever I am. And that's been true for me. And that's something that no matter how many ways I try to change that, or re explain it, it just always brings me back to that place.
Seth Price 45:29
It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It also sounds because we're going to do a call back because I'm working on comedy. That also sounds a lot like the Gospel of Thomas there at the end, you know, break a stick. Yeah.
Zach Bolen 45:41
I didn't tell you this, but I should have quoted it properly. That wasn't a tire.
Seth Price 45:46
Now that seriously, that was beautiful. Yeah. And so then, Zach, in closing, like, what do you want people to do to do the things that they should be doing as they listen to music or buying albums or whatever? Like, where would you want people to go in closing, if they're like, You know what, I actually do want to listen to some conversations, or some music about these kinds of topics. And I'll also say for people that are like, I don't know that I want to listen to songs about doubt, I would remind you that the Bible is like 78% Doubt limit loss and how freakin long Lord. So that's the bulk of the Bible. So just reset your expectations there. We didn't really say that in this conversation. But I'm just gonna say that right here. So you fit into good company with
Zach Bolen 46:23
apparently there's human beings in that thing. Yeah, just it's weird. It's weird
Seth Price 46:27
that people get mad about things and say, I thought that you are good. This doesn't feel good. You're such a Mayhall. Why are you doing this?
Zach Bolen 46:35
Yeah, right. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, go listen to our music. Please listen to our music, not even just for the sake of supporting us. But I really mean, not only do we put a lot of time and care into what we make, like so many other artists do. We I really care about people like me, that are trying to find a place of belonging, and trying to find a place of camaraderie, and connectedness to others who really, I would say are striving to kind of find some sort of middle. And our music is have really tried to do that. And so any, I would say, especially our past, gosh, three records,
Seth Price 47:26
you read them pretty quickly. So
Zach Bolen 47:28
they do come out. I know, it's weird. 10 years, like, gosh, this is our sixth record. Can't believe it. So I would say any one of those if you're if you're struggling or just wanting like a record that where you're maybe feeling the weight of doubt and trying to find your way through it. I feel like our third record, Amir dimly is really great for that. If you're really pissed off and angry and frustrated about just politics, and just the way that things are conflated with faith, and political things, you should listen to our record fear. If you're just looking for a record that like is about worshiping a god that is present with us and our being then you should listen to our record the joy of being. And if you're just wanting to record that sort of sums up all that our latest CPE I think kind of does that too.
Seth Price 48:21
I agree. I agree. I agree. Yeah, perfect. Zach, thanks for your time this morning, man. I appreciate it very much. Appreciate it. Truly, pure, pure.
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Unknown Speaker 49:55
we will spin away To find the edges you find the Jeep is indeed
Unknown Speaker 50:14
you