Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening and is transcribed from Patreon version of the conversation. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
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Rabbi Daniel Bogard 0:00
Judaism as long viewed life is beginning at breath, we go back 1000s of years literally. And we have Jewish commentators who have just understood it normatively to mean that and when you look at the Talmud, when you look at folks like Rashi, when you look at sort of the whole breadth and width of the Jewish conversation, that has always been a very settled issue. So you'll, you'll find disagreement between various Jews and various Jewish streams around the specific boundaries of abortion. Right in terms of, if it's someone's mental health and how severe their mental health if it's their future, if it's their life in a more holistic sense, right, their future in terms of being able to go to college, or if it's their life, in the sense of, you know, perhaps their the parents already have four kids and can't afford another kid, right, something like 60% of all abortions in the United States, at least, while Roe v Wade stood where people who already had children. So those are the boundaries that you find some differences in most Jewish movements. But broadly, across all of Judaism, there's agreement that there are situations in which is it is a religious obligation for a pregnant person to seek an abortion.
Seth Price 1:37
Well, hello, there, it has been some time hasn't it, it has been a while. So thank you for giving me the time to take a summer off. And in season one of the show, I wanted to give you just a high level differences between this season and last season. So this season will actually be more like a season. I don't know how many episodes that will be yet. And right now I'm leaning towards every other week for release episode. But as I said back in May, my life is way busier than it used to be. My kids are way busier. And it's hard to do everything. And so I am not going to try to do everything I'm going to do a little bit at a time, as it makes the most sense for the show for my family, for my sleep, for your sleep, etc. But either way, I'm really excited to start off the second season of the show. And so I figured, why not just go all in, let's pretend that you weren't paying attention this whole summer. And you did not know that Roe v. Wade was overturned. There's a lot to say about that isn't there. And I'm not sure what I want to say about that. I still kind of worked my way through it. But I am reminded of so many convocations that I attended while I was at Liberty, where Dr. Falwell would would just say this, that the other about the Moral Majority, and we need to get out to vote this etc. And then I would watch Supreme Court justices over, you know, my lifetime, get litmus test using Roe v. Wade. And then I watched all of them lie to all of our faces about what they thought about law, what they thought about that case, and then, you know, fast forward to the summer, I along with the rest of you. Whether or not you agree with the case, we watched a conservative minority of a Christian faith, regulate their political and religious beliefs about when life begins or when life doesn't begin. We watch them regulate that from a Supreme Court bench to effect the constitutional rights of everyone that happens to live in this land. And that's not okay with me. So I was having conversations about it with friends and with family members. And I did some soul searching and because to be honest, I didn't know what I believed. And I found many people with a lot of different perspectives. One of them happens to be the guest on today's show. And so this one, I don't know, y'all. Abortion is one of those issues that people have their views, and they don't mouth off about them very often because they don't want to be ridiculed. And so here we go. I'm just putting it all out there. And luckily, the guest did as well. Because it is much bigger than some sound bite. And I'll be honest, I looked, I looked for some sound bites from Dr. Falwell and everyone else from the last 40 years. And I found some that I liked, and then I decided not to use any of them because it felt wrong. So instead, let's just get right into it. Welcome back to the show. Thanks for giving my break. Let's start Season Two with the bank.
Alright, here we go. Rabbi, Daniel BullGuard. Say I did it right. We did it. I cheated. Yeah. Yeah. Welcome to the show. And thank you for answering a random email from some from some dude in Virginia. I'm aware the Internet is a dangerous place. So thanks for happy to. Thanks for trusting me.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 5:41
Yeah, no, I checked out a show I liked. I liked the vibe like Yeah.
Seth Price 5:47
Yeah, well, that's good. So, I don't know. So I think you said you jumped into the middle of a show, just at random, just like a random middle of the show. Yeah. So I asked an existential question, usually at the beginning of the episodes, and I end with one I meant, I mean, hey, it's fine, because I feel like this first one you're going to know. And the second one, you'll also know, it's just I like to see where people go with them. So when you like, try to explain like here is what a rabbi Daniel Bogart is. What is that?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 6:20
The parents of three kids. I'm a rabbi. I am a co Rabbi with my wife, we've always job shared. I feel incredibly called to make this world into the place that I think it always should have been, that our children and our grandchildren deserve. I feel that deeply as a Jewish call. So sometimes, I'm an activist because of that. I'm a musician. I'm a techy guy. I'm a Star Trek fan. Yeah, I think I've used up the big ones.
Seth Price 6:59
I always like to make Star Trek fans really mad because there's a John Luke Picard. meme that has like it says, Use the force Luke signed Harry Potter just to make people mad. I like all of them. I like all of them. I'm a big fan of memes. My life is in Maine. My freakin shirt is I mean, at the moment, I'm not allowed to wear this shirt in public. So it says I tell dad jokes periodically, but it's the Periodic Table of Elements. wife loves my wife bought it and hates it. The kids love it. Yeah. She bought she bought it. So what does that mean? You want to make this world into something? It always should have been? That's, that's a big like, that's, those are some words. They're like, what? What does that mean?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 7:44
Yeah, you know, Jewishly we don't really focus on the afterlife. Because when we talk, when we talk about the purpose of this world, we don't imagine that this life in this world is some quality control for God to send our souls up or down, you don't figure out which direction they're meant to go. There's a real notion that this world is broken, because the world isn't done being created yet. Right? It's not that there's been a fall, but instead that we were created to do the work of repair. There's all sorts of mystical language that's used in Judaism around this and beautiful stories, but broadly, that is my understanding of why I am here and why we are here. It's to create the world as it's supposed to be a world where we treat each other with dignity and we see human beings as human beings and universal health care and all these sorts
Seth Price 8:37
of Yeah, yeah. Sounds like you and I. So I that's actually the kind of Christian that I am. I get in trouble often because I don't know that and I say this not tongue in cheek, like I'm not entirely certain that there is a heaven. I don't even know that that matters. Nor am I certain that there's a hell pretty sure that doesn't matter. But I think it's something that you and me create with our intentional actions. And so we like we make things because that's what we're created and like we are, we are at what's the word like at Mount Sinai, like we are the idol of God, like we are the image of God, and we're creating things because that's what God does. And we create heaven in the kingdom of God or we quite literally break things. And the wages of that is things die and break and fall apart and it's awful and hellish. I'm not evangelical
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 9:29
you know, the Jewish scholar my bodies, also known as run balm,
Seth Price 9:32
I know the first name I don't know No, the second name now say it
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 9:36
just two names for the same. Same person, but he that's exactly his approach. Really? Modern. He lived 1000 years ago. Yeah, yeah.
Seth Price 9:46
Yeah, I like that. So the reason that I reached out to you so the thing happened and I have no idea again exactly when this will air it will probably be after the kids go back to school. I will probably because If I'm doing these addictive, like, I haven't had one of these conversations in a while. These are addictive. And so now I'm probably just gonna send a bunch of emails and continue to do a bunch of these. Yeah. But um, it will be, you know, in a few months. And so for those people listening like it's June 30. Today, and this week, there's been a lot of Supreme Court decisions about a lot of things, including today, like the government can't regulate the climate environment, which is fun. Yeah, EPA, and let's burn it all down. Yeah, so that's fun. And so there has been a Roe vs. Wade decision. And someone and I do not know who pointed me in the direction of you on Twitter, which is always the best way to find things, though I do find some of the best theology currently happening on Twitter. If you just once Yeah, well, I like because you have to choose your words wisely. Even if you do a thread, like you've only got me for two or three, if you do one of eight, like these better be worth it. Because I'm not making it to eight, I'm gone. I'm done. And so
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 11:01
that's friends that I've made in terms of relationships and learning income from Twitter, and half the death threats I've ever got.
Seth Price 11:10
Half of the deathbed, so where did the other half come from?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 11:14
You know, that's the reality of being a Jewish professional in the 21st century.
Seth Price 11:18
Okay, that's an awful thing. And of the death threats on Twitter. How many of those were bots?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 11:26
These don't seem well, I don't know. These are. The FBI has been involved. Gracious, the seriousness of it. Yeah,
Seth Price 11:33
goodness, goodness, when I feel bad about making a joke about it.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 11:37
Whatever. You gotta laugh about it. Yes. You know, Brooks is 96 years old on the day of this recording. So
Seth Price 11:42
yeah, I said, Mel Brooks is Yeah, Brooks. Yeah. So you had said some things and I have it pulled up, I could read it, I'm probably just gonna link to it. And I may begin by reading some of it. But as I read through it, I realized, well, I thought that I knew things. And I thought that I was educated. And I was not, and I was wrong. And so it appears as though the Jewish concept of the decision of Roe v Wade is entirely different, because of the Jewish concept of like, when a human becomes a human, is entirely different. And there's a lot to unpack there. Like, that's like seven and a half hours of unpacking, and possibly therapy. What is so I wanted to approach with this. So again, we talked about this on the phone, I pretty much come from ignorance, anytime I have a conversation unless I've specifically read a book and then I read the entire book before we have a conversation. And then I try to ask questions that nobody has. I don't want to ask the questions that come in the inserts, because that's who does that. But that's not that's not genuine. So I was confused, because my whole life I've been told everybody that's religious, basically believes the same thing that that I do. And since actually talking to you on the phone, I've dug in further and be like, Nope, that's not what Muslims believe. Like, that's not what a lot of people believe. And I feel like I've been lied to. And so can you kind of wind back like, so you've written a few things on the internet about, about this decision? And about this decision? Excuse me, this decision and, and just kind of your faith and how that works in Judaism? And where would you begin talking about that with someone?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 13:22
Yeah, you know, what I would say is the fundamental distinction that Judaism looks at is between what we consider a life and a potential life. And both of these have enormous value. But a life always takes precedence before anything else. And that's actually a broad Jewish notion that there is no commandment that cannot and should not and must not, in fact, be broken for the sake of preserving life. I say that there are of course, some sorts of exceptions. In terms of Yeah, but So, Judaism as long viewed, life is beginning at breath, we go back 1000s of years, literally. And we have Jewish commentators who have just understood it normatively to mean that and when you look at the the Talmud, when you look at folks like Rashi, when you look at sort of the whole breadth and width of the Jewish conversation, that has always been a very settled issue. So you'll you'll find disagreement between various Jews and various Jewish streams around the specific boundaries of abortion. Right in terms of someone's mental health and how severe their mental health gets their future, if it's their life in a more holistic sense, right, their future in terms of being able to go to college, or if it's their life, in the sense of, you know, perhaps they're, the parents already have four kids and can't afford another kid. Right? Something like 60% of all abortions in the United States, at least, while Roe v Wade stood where people who already had children. So those are the boundaries that you find some do differences in amongst Jewish movements. But broadly, across all of Judaism, there's agreement that there are situations in which is it is a religious obligation for a pregnant person to seek an abortion.
Seth Price 15:17
Yeah. So where is that? So when we talked on the phone, you would said something. And this was again, we talked later in the evening. And I was literally changing the light bulb right there, when we were speaking about the way that so you had said the word evangelicals, and I don't know if you mean that in the Jewish sense, or in the Christian sense, or maybe just in the religious sense. But you would say there's like a different view of Scripture. And I asked that, because the verses that you're quoting, like an exodus and in some of the other stuff, are the same verses that that my old tribe is quoting. But for some reason, we come to different, different ramifications of, of like a birth and an abortion. So what do you mean, in a different view of like scripture?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 16:06
Yeah. Judaism writ large is a conversation through time, and through space, about the ways we're supposed to live in this world, and what it means to be a human being in this world and what it means to be in relationship with each other, and with the universal with the divine with the future with the past. And so whenever we approach something in Judaism is through that lens. Jews don't tend to look at the Bible as literal revelation in the same way that Christians do. We tend to think of them as our core tribal narratives. And
Seth Price 16:43
I want to make sure when you say Bibles, you mean, the Jewish Bible, or the Christian Bible, I want to make sure that we're using the word in the same way, because like, some of my friends that are Jewish, like they stop in where I would begin, like in Matthew and Mark, and yeah, of course, I'll make sure that we're talking about the same Bible. So what do you do when you say the Hebrew Bible? Okay, just want to make sure,
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 17:05
yeah. Yeah, you know, the real Bible without all your extra?
Seth Price 17:11
I like part two, I'm a fan. Yeah.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 17:14
Well, I mean, I think that's the thing to understand is that broadly, Judaism does have part two, the Talmud, in many ways serves as that part two for Judaism. It is the lens through which we understand everything else. But it's really different, how Judaism works and, and how we relate to our texts. And, uh, you know, it's it's kind of a funny thing, as a Jew that like, we've got these tribal stories, and this whole bunch of other people have decided that their story is also.
Seth Price 17:46
Yeah, yeah. That's fair. Yeah. So when so? Okay. So again, a word Talmud, not a word that I engage with daily? Yeah, let me take that apart for you. What is that? I could Google it. That's not fun. Probably, it's probably not a good exercise, either. Because Lord knows what I'll get.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 18:06
The core story, the core. The core myth, and I don't mean myth in a negative I mean, in an academic sense, right? Like the core story that tells us who we are as Jews, is that at the moment of revelation, when the Torah is given at Mount Sinai, that there is an oral tradition that is passed to Moses as well. And that that tradition is passed from Moses to Joshua to the elders to so and so forth through time through to the rabbi's. And then when we start getting into, you know, around the year of zero around the year of Jesus, as you're dealing with Roman occupation, as you're dealing with the destruction of the temple, which is really not just the destruction of the temple, it's the destruction of Jewish society and civilization and war and famine and rape as a tool of war. I mean, its awfulness, ethnic cleansings of areas. There's this fear that distribution is going to be lost. And so its core stories are written down around the year 200. And then over the next 600 years after that, there are discussions and debates and arguments and philosophy that is placed upon that and edited and in some ways is kind of like Wikipedia, in that it's generation after generation of people having conversations with each other. But for Judaism, it's very fair to say that we are the religion of the Talmud, much more than the religion of the Bible in the same way that I would say that. For Christians, y'all are often the religion of Christian scriptures rather than the religion of the Bible, or the Hebrew Bible.
Seth Price 19:44
Yeah, well, I think we could argue there. I think most Christians in America are the religion of Paul.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 19:51
Yeah, okay. Yeah, I was a New Testament major in college. I'm
Seth Price 19:54
with you. Yeah. I don't know that we care a lot. Well, I take that back. I do. I don't know that we We care a lot about the practice of the rest of it and how it relates to the overarching overwhelming the word that I like to use is shalom, which is a word that I just find is the best way to say what I mean, about the relationship that people should have with one another. But yeah, I think we'd like to lean in on Paul, I don't necessarily because seems a bit, whatever. That's not why you're here. So you. So what is the notion? So I know what the notion would be, for the average, probably not the listener of this show, but the average quote, unquote, Christian in America, about what a fetus is, and why life begins at conception. What is a fetus for those of your faith?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 20:42
Yeah, so we've got cortex that say things like, first of all, until the 40th, day fetus is considered like water, like nothing. And that's sort of a legal standard,
Seth Price 20:53
that that would kind of be when you realize that you've missed your period.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 20:58
Yes, the 40 days is probably they're not counting like people do today. So we're probably talking a few weeks after that, okay. But regardless, yeah, we're talking the early, early days of a pregnancy. From that point on a fetus is considered a potential life, and has status as a potential life, but that life always has to come. The pregnant person's life always takes precedence over the fetus in all situations. So we have all sorts of texts about this, I don't know how deep you want to go as deep as you want, like, great. So let's, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go ahead and pull this up. So I've got it in front of me to actually.
Let's see all these texts. So let's start with Exodus 2122. So just pulling it up right now. I like Safari. By the way, I see if a ria.org is definitely my favorite place to do Jewish learning. So really getting this text right here. When two or more parties fired, and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, that no other damage and Sue's the one responsible shall be fined, according to the woman's husband, how that woman has been made exact the payment to be based on reckoning. Okay, this is pretty straightforward, right? There's two people fighting there's a pregnant woman who is standing there, presumably on the sides gets knocked over and has a miscarriage as a result of that. So what is the punishment for Jewish law? According to that? The answer is that there's going to be a fine and interestingly enough, it's a kind of progressive taxation that's happening right here, right? The greater the ability of the person to pay the more they owe situation. But then we get this next line in verse 23. But if other damage ensues, meaning damage, that is not the miscarriage, the penalty shall be life for a life, meaning, if the pregnant person dies, the penalty is capital punishment. It's worth noting the rabbi's totally get rid of capital punishment and turn this into the financial aid anyways, that's a different, different conversation. But right, if the pregnant person dies, it's a Life for life. If they lose an eye, it's an eye for an eye, they lose a tooth, it's right. In we see this clear distinction there between what the punishment is for the loss of a fetus blocks of a pregnancy, and what the punishment is for the loss of actually the pregnant person, the human being, who is living and breathing and walking and talking. And so this is where Judaism really starts with this question. Yeah, any thoughts on that tax before we keep going?
Seth Price 23:59
Yeah, so yes, yes. So why 40 days, regardless of the Gregorian calendar of days, I don't care about the length of the hours, it doesn't matter to me, but why 40? Like, what is why is it just arbitrary?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 24:14
So you know, I don't know the answer to that it comes I believe, from the time but I'm gonna pull up my tech sheet in a second that was in my thread, but I've got no, that's okay. I've got all these sitting in Google Docs, right? It's the beauty of the internet these days. Let me see where that comes from. So two different sections from the Talmud that texts we talked about somewhat related texts right here. One says that if one becomes pregnant until the 40 of the day is considered mere fluid, a part of that has to do with you know, distinguishing between miscarriages and menstruation or irregular menstruation or there's all sorts of all sorts of things there. This I Believe, also as a standard in Islam, as well. But this becomes a legal standard for Judaism, that it's not even considered a potential life that early. Similarly, though, there's another line also from the same text from the Talmud, Rabbi you to Annecy, who's the Big Shot holds. A fetus is considered a part of its mother's thigh, meaning it's a part of its mother's body until it is born, it is not seen as an independent being. It is seen as really something that is a part of the pregnant person.
Seth Price 25:31
Yeah. So what is the woman viewed as then also like, like, so because it feels as though the woman is treated as property in the same way that like you killed my horse. Now you buy me another horse?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 25:44
Yeah, well, certainly, right. Like, if we're talking about biblical versions of marriage, we're dealing with deep misogyny and deep sexism in a relationship where a woman is fundamentally property right. That's, Judaism operates today. Yeah. But yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, that's, that's the context.
Seth Price 26:07
Yeah. Yeah. And in the context of this Exodus verses well, so this doesn't say that this is a spouse or pregnancy. This is just any pregnancy, correct?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 26:16
Yes, that's not a
Seth Price 26:19
big Yeah, sure. Yeah. Those are my questions. But if you let me stop you every time I will have many questions. No, yeah. Yeah. So where does that then go? So where does that like? Where does that springboard?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 26:32
Yeah, so we have this whole setup right of first of all, establishing that a fetus is a potential life is an entirely different category. In fact, actually, here, let me give you another quote from the mission of this one's incredibly graphic. But the mission is often mission as a part of the Talmud is often incredibly graphic because the rabbi's are trying to understand and deal with the realities of life. They're talking about, what do you do if a pregnancy is in crisis? What do you do if someone is trying to is actively giving birth? And there's crisis happening?
Seth Price 27:06
Yeah, so I think like there's a danger to the mom, like there's clear and present danger. Yeah, yeah. And
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 27:11
just to get a warning that this is graphic language, that if a person who is having trouble giving birth, they abort the fetus inside them, they must abort the fetus inside them, even up to an including taking it out limb by limb, and that is supposed to be graphic for these people to write to, to show you really what they're talking about. Because this is a direct quote, existing life comes before potential life. And now this the second half of this, I think you'll find interesting if most of the child had come out already, they do not touch it, because we do not push off one life for another.
Seth Price 27:47
What do you mean, push off? Yeah, choose?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 27:51
Yes. Yeah, that's exactly this is just kind of telling you the language. Yeah. I would say that actually, this is the rabbinic equivalent. And remember, we're talking about about 1800 years ago for this, of what we think of as viability today. Right, the point at which a fetus can survive outside of the womb,
Seth Price 28:10
okay. Yeah, yeah, a baby could breathe on a baby could read on its own. And I assume there's still wiggle room there for Yeah, we have medicine now. And so that, that that's a shifting window, because we also can fight cancer, we still lose, but we can we can do a lot of things.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 28:25
Yeah, exactly. But it's abroad value. Okay, I can integrate this into Judaism. It actually that includes there's a theoretical conversation in that same text about the death penalty. Again, the rabbinic tradition gets rid of the death penalty, but still likes to imagine the boundaries of it. And there's a specific line that says in less a pregnant person is in labor actively in labor, you do not put off their execution for them to give birth, which is as clear of assign as you can imagine, Jewishly that the fetus is not considered in independent life, but just a part of the pregnant person. Until the Earth.
Seth Price 29:07
Hmm, yeah. Okay. So, potential life. That's not a word that I use in sentences. Usually, that's not even really the way I use the word potential. Can you rip that apart? Because I feel like that is a different way to talk about people. Yeah, then than we normally do.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 29:25
Yeah, yeah. So the idiom of Judaism is legal conversations, how you should behave and it works much like American case law. Without a Supreme Court. It's like we've got the appeals courts and circuit courts without the Supreme Court. There's no Ultimate Body deciding anything but but it is the language of law that we deal with and I totally now have lost my train of thought to bring it back to the
Seth Price 29:56
question. So potential life like potential Yeah,
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 29:59
so When the rabbi's are talking about potential life, they really mean this is legal categories they're trying to understand and ethical categories, right? They're, they're trying to divide and understand their world. And they know that a fetus is not the same thing as a baby. Right? I mean, we know that a fetus is not. And so they're trying to understand the distinction between these things. They're basing it on what they understand to be both Jewish textual precedent in what you call the Hebrew Bible, and also this oral tradition that's been passed to them and that they're trying to record down in these documents. And so, you know, we, in many ways, it's similar to I've been studying with my Tama group I on zoom with my congregation, the the tractate, dealing with blessings in prayer. And the first question they ask is they're talking about a prayer you only say in the morning is, when is the morning and they spend the next you know, 200 pages, not talking about prayer, but talking about what is that boundary between when it is night when it is morning, what is the in between time when we're in dividing that up because that is what they do. And that's what they're trying to do here is make a distinction between potential life life that may exist potential human life and actual human life in turn away the the ethics that those sorts of distinctions create.
Seth Price 31:38
So this is the part of the show that there should be ads, right, because we live in a capitalistic world, and everything has to get paid for. But that's just not the way that I want to do it. So if you feel led, support the show on Patreon, I do absolutely need you. But if you don't, I'm not going to put any ads here, because I just don't feel like it. Hopefully you do, though, the amount that you support will not change the benefits that you get. And so with that said, let's get back to the show.
Moving Beyond Exodus, what else does the Hebrew Bible I mean, use those words, essentially, because that's the word you used. Have to say, as it relates to the decision of Roe v. Wade.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 32:30
So, that Exodus line that I gave you is the most significant line when it comes to abortion for Judaism in the Hebrew Bible. And in I guess what I'm saying and what I meant earlier, when I said that Judaism views scripture differently, is everything that I have referenced is scripture for Jews, that these top music references are at least as weighty as the Exodus reference. And, you know, for instance, within the ultra orthodox world, which is quite a sexist world at times, yeah. In the study Talmud women's study Bible.
Seth Price 33:04
Yeah. Can I ask a question about the Bible then so big in so I believe that a lot of things can be the inspired Word of God. Honestly, you could be the inspired Word of God. If you if you're His truth is His truth. And
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 33:19
if you're gonna dig my mind at ease,
Seth Price 33:21
yeah, I should read him. It because the truth is truth. And if, if it's truth, where else would it come from? And how is that not a word from God? Anyway, full of full of the heresy today, everybody can burn me. I lost my train of thought now. It's okay. Because I know where I want to go anyway. Just don't forget, I can't remember where I was going with that. What do we do then with other texts of friends, it's one of the ones that is big in say, a church on the street would be, you know, of course, a fetus is a body, because it says in Psalm 139, and I'm going to go from memory. I don't I'm not a buyer. I'm not the person you know. So you knew me and I in most being you needed you knew me, you know, when when I was knitted together in my mother's womb, which does kind of anthropomorphize the fetus. So how does your How do you? How do you deal with that?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 34:13
Yeah, the normative Jewish interpretation of that text is that it's talking about prophets. And that is a specific reference to prophets. And that's the straightforward interpretive move there. The Jews have long had on that text. But more broadly than that, I would say that these other texts and there's Jeremiah texts that a number of Christians like to reference also that that's just kind of not how Judaism works. Also, that it's not like, show me a different text from the Bible, and it changes everything. Where this conversation through time and space, and it's the conversation which has the value, not the original piece or one of the earlier pieces or
Seth Price 34:59
Yeah, Yeah, so I do read a relevant question then you what you just said brought it back to it. And so my question is that upon, like, inspiration so like, is the talent Talmud and the other in the other texts that that your faith is using? Are they still a thing that are being wrestled with? Or it wasn't done like in? I'm just gonna say 1771? Because it feels good. And that's where we stopped. And now we just go with what they said, like,
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 35:26
Yeah, got it. Yeah. It's the 1770 ones like yesterday for Jewish Time, first of all, but Tom, it ends about spear 700 ce II, this, this site is zero. Okay? If that makes sense. There's a metaphor that I really liked for, for Judaism of the pearl. Right? A pearl is a grain of sand that enters into an oyster and has all these layers that are built upon it, I think we can think of the Torah is that grain of sand. This is a classic Jewish image. But every generation of Jews is adding their layer in it is all of those layers which create the value of a pearl, we would never cut open a pearl to get that, you know, Hustler, shalom, God forbid to get that grain of sand back. And similarly, the value of Judaism is this broad conversation. And that's what I mean by we look at Scripture differently. It's really a very different, it's almost a different genre that we use.
Seth Price 36:26
Yeah. So So you say your things on the internet. Right? And, and people like me read them? And I'm sure not everybody is is kind. What is the reaction to people that are doing what you're doing that are like, yeah, about this decision? It's really cute that you Christians happen to think that you can legislate your faith and make that my law, like what is the reaction from everyone? That's like, yes, it took us since the Moral Majority. But we did it. We finally got all the Supreme Court people we wanted. We figured out how to like money, Empire and lobbyist. And we did it. We did it together. Yay, we won. Hopefully, the sarcasm is coming through. They're like, yeah, what like what has been the response as because I honestly, I've been like, I've really enjoyed reading, because I'm learning so very much that I did not expect to learn. And that makes me partially thankful for this decision. Because I would not have even bothered to learn things that I didn't know. And I say that, with a caveat of I am not thankful for the decision. I think it was the wrong decision. But I'm thankful that it's caused me to learn, and I can I can make those to be separate things, at least in my mind, I can have the learning. Yeah, at least in my mind, I can. So what has been that response? Like? How has that been?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 37:42
Yeah. American Jews are scared. We look out. And it feels like more and more in the United States. It is a white Christian minority, that the white Christians are necessarily a minority. But it might be it is a distinct group of these people that have taken the levers of power. And first of all corrupted the system. I think democracy is over in America, generationally, I think it's it's been lost. But more and more, it feels like they are instituting a version of white Christian nationalism on the rest of us. And in enforcing it on the rest of us in all sorts of broad and scary ways. You know, I have a trans kid, which is a relatively non controversial thing in the Jewish world. A different conversation sometime, maybe?
Seth Price 38:53
Yeah. Yeah. So think back on a conversation on the phone. That Easter response from the gentleman that I'm a big fan of like, that's one of those where I'm like, wait, what? But not while you're here. He had different conversation. Yeah.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 39:05
But I have to go and defend my kid in his basic humanity, before my legislature because I live in a red super majority state and I go down there in the white Christian nationalism, seeps from the walls. And my wife and I are up at night having the conversations of when do we flee? And what is too much in, right like in places like Texas and Alabama, they're sending government goons to the doors of loving, affirming parents of trans kids, and threatening to take their kids away and charge these parents with child abuse. And we're having the set kind of conversations at night that Jews had in the 1930s in Europe, early 30s. And like, I'm a rabbi, I don't say that lightly. It's not, it's not something that we toss around in the Jewish community, the Holocaust is sacred and holy and untouchable. And so for me to say that and for broadly the rest of the Jewish community to look out and say, Yeah, that's what it feels like. That's what a lot of Jews are feeling right now. It feels like we are losing our place in America. And America is becoming a white Christian nationalist country. It feels like the federal government has been lost.
Seth Price 40:31
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I would agree. I do not like Christian nationalism. I lead the worship, and I help lead the worship in my church. And they asked me if I could play God bless America, and sing it to which I was like, I will, I will play those notes to placate the people. But I'm not singing that. Because to be quite honest, I do not feel one like that matters at the moment. I'm quite upset with America. And two, that has no place in a religious worship place. Like that's what why am I here? Like, I'm not here to sing to America. And so I won't
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 41:09
read by a Jew, by the way, God bless him. It wasn't really. Yeah. Which I think actually speaks to how much America has been. Jews called it Nitish, the golden Medina that like the promised land, the golden land, the it has been that for us, because it was this place where we didn't have to choose between our Jewishness in our Americanness. Europe, we had to choose right. Actually, in Europe, we didn't get much of a choice. But here, that wasn't true. And that is changing. And it's clear that it's changing and right. It's clear that the Supreme Court will not find Jewish religious liberty to exist to the same degree that it finds white conservative, Christian, religious liberty to exist.
Seth Price 41:54
Yeah. So I want to pivot from there. So you did send me an article, I have not read it, but I heard about it on I use Spotify. And it does like the daily drive. I don't know if you, it's one of my favorite things. Because the news clips are like eight minutes long. I'm like, I can do this. I can do this in the car for eight minutes. You talk longer than that. And I'm a little bit angry, give me back my music. But
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 42:13
I guess for a guy who runs a podcast to say, by the
Seth Price 42:15
way, so I don't listen to a lot of music. I pretty much listen to absolutely nothing. Because you get it with the kids like I, every once I just want to be left alone. Like I just, I love the noise. I love the music. I just, I just don't, I just want to roll the window down. Like today, I actually went the long way to the branch that I went to because I drove next to a river and I slowed down. And so I literally drove for 10 extra minutes next to the Thai river. And I enjoyed every minute of it. I went out of my way, and I'm not going to expense those extra mileage. If you if you're listening. I'm not doing that. That's on me. And I enjoyed it. But the news is important, because there's a lot of there's a lot of things. A lot of things going on everywhere. Everywhere. But I just Yeah, I don't it makes me like yeah, pockets. I don't listen to a lot of music. Really ever. And I have no idea where I was going with it. Oh, that's okay. So what I do know so the court there's a there was a on the news. It was a there's a I guess a lawsuit for appears to be coming from from the Jewish religious body.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 43:27
Just community in Florida. Yeah, I'm not sure this is the lawsuit. It's a congregation in Florida that is suing for violation of religious liberty. I read the actual complaint. And let's just say it's wide ranging. But regardless of the merits of this particular lawsuit, there are certainly going to be lawsuits flooding, the courts making a religious liberty argument from a Jewish perspective. Because right now, whatever you think of my textual interpretation, it is 1000s of years of Jewish textual interpretation. And Jews have viewed it this way for 1000s of years. Yeah, and so right like these states that have these, they're called refroze Religious Freedom Restoration acts, which are expansions of First Amendment religious guarantees, but states did have them and that were put in place truthfully to reinforce a certain type of white Christian
Seth Price 44:24
we're gonna pray in the schools and you're gonna like it absolutely freedom
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 44:26
to impose right? Yeah. We're going to find out if if these states really believe in religious liberty and religious freedom, or if they just believe in white, Christian religious liberty and freedom, because Jews are gonna sue everywhere, and we're gonna have real good standing to sue everywhere. And I think we're gonna see Jewish organizations that are going to open up or try to open up locations to give out pharmaceutical border tickets, and plan B in states where it is illegal. And you know, this is a religious obligation.
Seth Price 44:58
Yeah, yeah. So realistically, what do you like just you expect of that? So let's say it's because you know, it's going to take four or five years that happens. Somebody, somebody Sue's it goes through appeals, blah, blah, blah. Realistically, do you see this Supreme Court going? Yeah, we screwed up. But also you don't get to have your freedom of what you believe. And we get where you're coming from. But um, nope. Like, do you see it like actually changing, especially because I can see like, the Muslim faith also coming alongside and, and to be quite frank, there are many Christians that also would agree with you. I'm one of them. I though I want to say I am personally pro life. But I can remember when my wife was giving birth to my son, they literally threw me away. Like, they threw me out of the because there were issues and I won't go into those issues on a public podcast. If you had asked me right, then I didn't know my son, and I love my wife picked my wife, I would have said it in a heartbeat. And, and he may listen to this, and but he don't hear me saying that that's anything bad. I just know what I would have said. So I say I'm pro life right now. But I've always also been anyone else's ability to be whatever they are. But I know what I would have
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 46:13
a pro life and Judaism would call the call that pro life because you're valuing life. Yeah. Potential life.
Seth Price 46:19
Yeah, well, no, I if you'd asked me. So for instance, I say that. So we did our screening, like they give you the screening. And really, the screenings were more for like, do you want to screen for Down syndrome, all that stuff? And we literally said, we're not even ever going to consider an abortion. So it doesn't matter what that answer is just we, because it was the thing that I and I still would never like, that's me. That being said, I know what I would have said, because I was ready and prepared to say, and it is a vivid memory. And those two don't stand together. And so when you think about people, maybe like myself, other Christians, people that have Islamic faith, and I'm sure there are other faiths as well, that I'm also equally ignorant of that also would agree, if all of them come together, realistically, and say, yeah, there are many religions, even in America. We all disagree. Is that going to change in seven 810 years or whatever, when the next one comes to the Supreme Court?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 47:22
I think democracy has been lost in America. I think there has been a coup that has happened. That happened in slow motion. And I think it is generationally lost. That we we have five, white conservative Christian Supreme Court justices, who were appointed by white conservative Christian presidents, who lost the popular vote got to be president because they won the white conservative Christian vote. And then three of those justices were appointed by Senate's that were controlled by Republicans that represented less than half of Americans. They say that by 2040 70% of Americans live in 15. States, which means that 30% of Americans whiter, more Christian, older, more conservative, more evangelical
Seth Price 48:17
will have way more power,
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 48:18
seven deep Senate seats, right, we've, we've had 40%, almost of the presidencies in my adult life go to the loser of the sixth of the Supreme Court, right. Like it's been lost, it has been corrupted. And I think we need to regroup and figure out what comes next. But I know so no, is the answer. I do not believe that this Supreme Court is a legitimate Court of Justice. I don't believe it fulfills actually the Jewish biblical mandate that, that societies have courts of justice. Yeah.
Seth Price 48:57
So what do we do then? What do you do I do for years? I mean, my my daughter is above, and I don't want her to be pregnant right now. But, you know, it's a thing like, what do we do like 10 years down the road? What
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 49:07
do I do? What do you do about abortion? What do you do?
Seth Price 49:11
Yeah, there are a lot of things about what do I do about but specifically as it relates to Roe v. Wade, like, what do I do? Do I just say, Yeah, we're doing this anyway, come and get me if you want to come get me like, What do I do?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 49:20
It? Look, the reality has always been that people have means and people in the majority population have access to abortions, and that's not going to change. Right? This is going to hurt people who are poor. This is going to hurt people who are black, this is going to hurt people who are brown, this is going to hurt people who can't take off work and work hourly jobs. This is straight like these are the people who it's going to hurt people who have means will always be easy, and it's always been easy even if it's going to be a little harder now even if it's a little extra trip and a little extra slap and even if it means going to Canada in the future, whatever it looks like.
Seth Price 49:59
I mean restate my question. I don't mean, what do I do if my daughter gets pregnant? I mean, what do I do to actually affect change to help people?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 50:07
Yeah, look, I think it's time for us to have bigger conversations about means and tactic, tactics and strategies. I think it's time, like I'm hopefully going to be planning a conference or helping to plan a conference in Germany, with German, Anti Fascist educators. Because I think that's what we're facing in the United States is fascism. And I think we need to understand how to take it on what tactics work, and what strategies work and what tactics don't. Right, like you're in all sorts of broad ways, but but there are Germans who very much know what this looks like. And I want to hold on to the fact that we're sitting in 2022, talking about needing Americans to go to Germany to be trained in how to push back against American fascism. That's, that's a crazy extreme point that we have arrived at in our moment.
Seth Price 51:06
Yeah. So I want to ask two questions to close just because I want to be respectful of your time, and you may need to check on the kids are, or the wife seems to have been remarkably
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 51:14
quiet. They're all camping. We talked about this before we went on, but they're on camping out in the basement in a
Seth Price 51:20
Yeah. So people listen to this. And they're like, yeah, like, Mike, Seth, I have no idea what this is. You would reference something called Safaris. And I think you said SAF a ria.org. Maybe that's not what you said, Where do people go? Like, what's the first place they go to to begin to educate themselves to go? Hmm, okay. Because I think that that education does better inform, especially listeners of this show, that are predominantly either, I don't know, I don't know, actually, I don't actually know who they are. I think I know who they are. I know who I am, that go to a church. And like it or not, that church has power. And if you're listening to this, you happen to be in a fairly wealthy country. It just is what it is because you have internet and you could download podcasts. And so it's new information, where's the first place to begin to dip that toe into? And then possibly a support place to go? Yeah, I'm uncomfortable. Now. I need to talk about this. Like, where would you direct people to? Yeah, I want to take that I want to take that anger, especially in your like I have and direct it somewhere, like do something with it instead of just watching it simmer and
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 52:27
nothing. Yeah, and vent on social media and all those things? Well, you
Seth Price 52:32
know, social media is just it fixes everything. That's that's the only way to get anything done. Exactly.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 52:40
You know, I'd say it's really easy to read a lot of Jewish sources on the Internet, if you Google. And the core piece of information that I think you got to understand as a Christian entering into these spaces, is that the Orthodox are a tiny minority of Jews, they're not the normative Jewish experience. They're the exception. There only about 9% of American Jews, I'm a member of the largest movement, the Reform Movement, which about 40% used to be a part of the conservative movement, which is about 20% and is not conservative in any way that you would recognize kind of like the Episcopal Church is today is is really what I've compared to a high church, high ritual, but women and queer rabbis and so on, so forth. Yeah. And so pay attention to those sources and pay attention and make sure that you're not reading only or exclusively orthodox sources, or when you are reading them that you understand that you were reading fringe sources, or at least a small minority sources within the Jewish community.
Seth Price 53:44
Yeah. So at a high level, what do you mean by orthodox reformed? Conservative, like very brief, like, yeah.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 53:52
So reform, by the way, just put an ad No. Okay. At the end. There are three major movements, denominations, whatever word you use of American Judaism today, Reform, Conservative and Orthodox reform is the largest, as I said a moment ago about 40%. It is going to the difference between reform and conservative tends to be what you might think of as high church and Rock Church. Reform is not rock.
Seth Price 54:19
So Hillsong, loose versus Lutheran? For for that work? Yeah, those sit in there, be still don't move. Do not raise your hand ever sit there and sit there and listen versus Oh, it's YouTube. It's a YouTube cover band. And then we talk about the Bible for 20 minutes
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 54:36
or the Jewish. So the answer is no to any of the specifics. And yes to the general God that you're talking about. Got it. Got it. Yeah, that's interesting to have. People choose based on how much they like ritual and things like that. Yeah, yeah. And then the Orthodox world are the fundamentalists of the
Seth Price 54:53
Jewish world. And so you mean fundamentalist in the same way that I would like?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 54:57
I think so. These are the people who are generally quite conservative, political. I wasn't talking politics. That's that's sort of a different thing. But no in terms of their outlook on the world in terms of their views often on a, it's a very nuanced and broad community itself with lots of amazing people in diversity.
Seth Price 55:23
But among those three, all three would basically agree about the view of a fetus as a thing. And until it's a baby, like these are two separate things,
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 55:35
I would agree that those are different things and that potential life, that existing life always takes precedence over potential life, that there would be enormous differences between many reform rabbis and many orthodox rabbis on the specifics of acceptable reasons for an abortion within that frame. But surely, one would have made a blanket bans on abortion or violation of Jewish religious liberty,
Seth Price 56:02
I should have probably asked that 20 minutes ago,
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 56:04
but didn't you just snippet into the beginning? No,
Seth Price 56:08
I am not. I could I could edit that I want to edit out a crying baby. And I don't believe that anybody still can tell me what episode that baby was in. I've edited out many things. I'm not going to fix that. So one other theology based question, though, so why breath is that like, a call back to Genesis and like, people or people wants the breath of life is breathe in, or is it something else?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 56:33
Yeah, no, that's exactly it. That's, that is life. For Judaism in in the profound sense that, in fact, the word for breath and the word for soul are basically the same
Seth Price 56:46
word. Yeah, I'm gonna say it wrong. And hopefully I'm not if I'm wrong, I'm gonna edit this out, because I want to be in it. So that's ReWalk. Right? Correct.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 56:53
That's a different one that is very similar. Also in the Shama. We've got all these words in the Shama nephesh rule that are slightly synonymous. Okay.
Seth Price 57:04
Cool. So when you say, here's the nice existential question, so now we get to have fun. So when you try to wrap words around, whatever God is, the Divine is whatever that is, what is that?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 57:19
Yeah. Can I give you two different answers?
Seth Price 57:27
All the answers you want?
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 57:32
The first answer is that for me, God is what we mean by the capital T truth of the universe, the underlying truth, I mean, like, equals MC squared kind of stuff. But we can never know capital T truth, we can never hold it, we can never see it. That there's fundamentally nothing that we can say about the divine. That in fact, anything that we say about the divine anything God is loving God is vengeful, God is is us projecting ourselves onto God, it's us creating God in humanity's image rather than the other way around. To consider grab by the Cutco view calls it an idolatry of the mind. It's like that phrase. It's all that we can say is God is not loving God is not vengeful, God is not kind in the same way that God is not 15 pounds overweight, these are human qualities. And we are taking sort of our image of what we think is the best human quality and applying it to the divine. And so since we can know nothing about the Creator, nothing definitionally the best way to understand this creation, and that means science and the act of understanding the universe, is why we're here and is the goal of the Divine. And Einstein sitting alone in his room coming up with relativity was prophecy in the same way that Moses was, and the same way that my mind is thought of it and and that was sacred and is sacred. And that's not a challenge to God that that is an expansion of the divine in this world, when we know that
Seth Price 59:22
it was that both.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 59:23
That's my first okay. And that's my mind it is I'm gonna I got a book for you on my mind. It is
Seth Price 59:29
I'm actually I wrote it down ask about what to read, because that's not Yeah, I tend to navigate towards some of the Eastern fathers when I like when I read about, like, like Christian texts, like I always seem to lean more toward like, I'll say something and be like, Oh, that's Athanasius and I'm like, that's a WHO, WHAT? And so I'll read it and I'm like, oh, okay, I think yeah. Why was he a heretic again? Oh, I see. I see y'all. You wanted money? You wanted money and you wanted to take that land? I got it. I understand now. I misunderstood before but now I understand that it's still the same story. Got it? Understood? Yeah. Yeah. Looking forward to what's the second one.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 1:00:08
So the second one is comes from around I read read Zalman Schachter Shlomi Have a blessed memory says when you look at it a field of grass. This comes from the Zohar, the ancient Jewish mystical text, it says that every blade of grass every living thing, but but even every blade of grass has an angel that is whispering to it grow, grow. And it doesn't mean this literally right. This is this is a mystic, Mystic understanding that says that there are these frames of existence, that the angelic frame and the grass frame that we see are both existing on top of each other and are both true and are both right, they are the same thing at some level. And so rubs off and says you look at it, this field of grass in it too, as an angel whispering to it, grow, grow. And so that that field is made up of the pieces of grass, but is still somehow different than the sum of its parts. It's not greater, just different, right, you can go and pull out a bunch of the grass, you can mow it or you can do whatever you want. And it is still that field. We won't invite our Buddhist friends to this conversation, I would disagree with that. But similarly, rubs almond says, Every human being has an angel whispering to it grow, grow. And when you back away, every every group of people, the Jewish people, the Christian people, the Americans, the every group of people, every every tribe that we create, is an angel whispering to us grow, grow. And when you back far enough away, so that you're talking about the totality of creation of the totality of life, and please God, I hope we're not just talking about this one little planet, this one little grey.in the corner, right? We're talking about the totality of life. That's the angel that we mean when we say God, right? I don't mean Angel here, right? That's the essence that God is somehow the totality of life, but different than the sum of its parts. But neither of these images of God to me are a god that changes or moves or effects or that I can pray to and will intervene, or I think those are actually small gods as a really small gods. I think religion often creates really small gods.
Seth Price 1:02:33
Yeah, that's because people create religion. Well, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I have a good friend. I like both of those answers. By the way, these those are my favorite questions, I asked that question of everyone. And then listen to the beginning of the end. I didn't at one time and then I forget what it was I asked that question randomly to somebody. And then he asked me, and I realized how hard it was to answer. And I was like, well, that's a question worth answering. Like, if you if you don't have to think about your response, it's not a question worth asking. Instead, I started and then after that, I begin mixing them. So I'll take that part. And I'll rip it out. And I randomly assign them numbers, and I let my kids pick the numbers. And then at the end of the year, I throw all of those answers together. And what's amazing is and I'll put some music in there, you know, because we need some Hans Zimmer strings to pull up. Yeah. What's amazing is it almost always tells a narrative totally at random, and it is freaking amazing. And it's so powerful. And the nice thing is I'm not and the nice thing is I'm not in it, but I'll ask that question of Sikhs, and Muslims and atheists. And it doesn't matter what the answer is, but it always ends up being something entirely, entirely holy. And I just, I just love it. Love it. Yeah. Anyway, so thanks for answering it. And thanks for being here tonight. I really appreciate it. Yeah. This was a treat. Yeah. Excellent. Any plugs that you want to plug because that's what we do on podcasts? You don't have to you can if you want it didn't matter.
Rabbi Daniel Bogard 1:04:05
I plugs to plug No, I don't have any big plugs. I'm perfectly right now go live free. Yeah.
Seth Price 1:04:15
I can do plug free. Well, good. Rabbi, thank you for being on the show very much for having me on. Now, I haven't added it up. But there are hundreds of 1000s if not millions of podcasts on the internet. And I am humbled that you continue to download this one. This is your first time here. Please know that there are transcripts of these shows. Not always in real time, but I do my best. And if you go back in the logs, you can find transcripts for pretty much any episode that you'd like. The show is recorded and edited by me but it is produced by the patrons supporters of the show. That is one of the best if not the The best way that you can support the show if you get anything at all out of these episodes, if you think on them or if you you know, you're out and about and you tell your friends about it or Hey, mom, dad, brother, sister, friend, boss, Pastor, here's what I heard, what are your thoughts on that? If this is helping you in any way, and it is helping me consider supporting the show in that manner. It is extremely inexpensive, but collectively, it is so very much helpful. Now for you. I pray that you are blessed, and you know that you're cherished and beloved. We'll talk soon