Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Ekemini Uwan 0:00

I mean back in 2018, before this recent or more modern movement toward deconstruction, and I guess decolonization is what some people, you know, they use some people use the term synonymous synonymously. I don't know, I see them as two different projects, which is why I put forth a different framework for how to approach decolonize discipleship, which is like I'm just really calling us to disentangle the Christian faith, the Eastern Christian faith, from the sinful mechanisms and additives of American Christianity, and those trappings that are in sneering many people and are really a stumbling block to a lot of people. Rightfully so. You know, so to me, I felt it was important to be able to say like, No, this is legitimate, or fake the pains or hurts the things that you're witnessing. They're legitimate budget, you know, but don't don't forsake Jesus, you know, don't throw away the face, you know, behind these things there is you can get to the other side

Seth Price 1:14

we are steadfast, just as wide as catastrophe. Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to the show. I'm Seth. This is the can I say this at church podcast, we're here we are doing it. My apologies for missing last week, there was a lot going on. And I won't get into all of that. We all know how life is sometimes. And so anyway, that is where we are at now. I have a good episode for you this week. So it Kimani from truth table podcast is on the show. Now she and her co hosts have written a book and I will tell you so it is this month's patron book that is going out. And yeah, it is very, very good. And so we talked briefly about some of the chapters that she wrote, she wrote four chapters in that book there. And yeah, really enjoyed my time with her. And so with that said, without any further rambling from me, let's rock and roll.

To the hills, from whence comes my house. Welcome to the podcast. I'm glad that you're here. I'm sorry that I could not bring your co authors and CO hosts with you. via my my calendar keeps moving. We were talking to submitted to go with whatever little league and my three children's extracurricular activities and or school decides to say is more important than the rest of the world. So I apologize. But Good morning, and welcome to the show.

Ekemini Uwan 3:15

Thank you glad to have to be here.

Seth Price 3:18

See, see. See, that's the old habits. Because that's Yeah, glad. So a couple questions just to kind of frame you. So when you try to say here's what in the company is, what is that? Like? Who and what is that?

Ekemini Uwan 3:36

What Yeah, so I'm a public theologian. But most importantly, I'm a child of God. And I see myself as a servant of the Lord more specifically a public servant of the Lord and so so yeah, so I do a lot of God talk in public and from the truth table podcast and now we choose Table Book black woman's musings on life love and liberation, where now I'm officially an author. But also a writer is written for the Atlantic, Washington Post's Hallmark mahogany. I'm a contributing writing writer there. And also, I've been on the Racial Justice Commission for the Aspen Institute. So I work in a lot of different states versus secular non secular. Yeah, proclaiming

Seth Price 4:27

the gospel. I knew most of those though. I'm curious, what is the hallmark thing like is that because there's a channel and there's cards and I'm sure there's other things that Hallmark does.

Ekemini Uwan 4:36

Yeah. newly developed writing community that they started the beginning of this one. Oh, wait. Well, I guess toward the end of last year is when they started it, actually. Yeah, so that's a brand new, you know, hub for them.

Seth Price 4:49

That's fun. I did not know they did that. Huh? Yeah. So I know how much work doing a podcast is because I do this one by myself. So So how do you jump from podcasting? Actually, why do you even do podcasting? I guess it's better question, because that's always the question that I enjoy answering for people. And then sometimes I realized, shoot 20 minutes later, what are we talking about? Kind of how did you get into that? And then why pivot into authoring a book and in the book is, it's going so you don't know this. And I haven't told your co hosts either. I send a book out to a few patrons, subscribers of the of the show each month. And so this book is next month's book. Thank you. Yeah. It's not a tremendous amount of humans. But I do find it a tremendously powerful book. But yeah, so how do you get into podcasting and then pivot that into like, Why? Why that's a lot of work. Like just a lot. On top of all the other things that you said you do.

Ekemini Uwan 5:45

Yeah, it's a lot of work. Podcasting is definitely a full time job. I'd love to be paid full time for that. Nobody's listening.

Seth Price 5:52

Where's the line for that? I'll get in that line.

Ekemini Uwan 5:54

Exactly. You know, yeah. I, well, honestly, when we started podcasting, none of us were really podcast listeners. Step one, step two, we didn't know what we were getting into. We were just like, Okay, we'll show up about things and go on our merry way. Like, wait, no, wait, hold on. This is a business. What do we do?

Seth Price 6:20

We have to pay taxes, I have to pay

Ekemini Uwan 6:26

more than we bargained for. And so initially, what happened, how to say boy even came to be was that the producer for Pastor Mike, bow, your reached out to me and said, hey, you know, we were in St. Louis at a conference together. And he was like, you should have a podcast, you know, and I was like, I don't know, if I want to carry a show by myself, you know, much, Todd's much opportunity for sin. So I was like, I don't know, if I really want to do that. And I just don't really like the spotlight on me. Too much. Honestly, I don't want to I never wanted to be able to see myself. I think sometimes people end up building their own kingdoms. I know. And they find themselves in a one sided competition with God. And so I'm like, I don't want to do that. And so he was like, Well, what about if you Michelle and Christina started a podcast. And I was like, we started a group chat a couple months ago. And and that's been really fun and cool. And so I just asked them, Hey, would you guys want to start this? Would you want to do

Seth Price 7:30

a podcast? Which one of us editing it? Because it's not me? Right? And I was like, well,

Ekemini Uwan 7:37

we didn't even know about any any of that. I'm telling you. We were really like, a like, I don't know, we had no clue we really didn't know. So they both came back with a yes. And so we're like, okay, and Bo was the one that was like, well, we'll produce it and take care of everything. You know, okay, on the back end, I was like, great, because they don't take care of the back end. And don't you said, because we're not editing. We absolutely produce we're over production. But the direction of the show the top of the series, that's what choose us all choose Table to name all of us the creative content, but technical,

Seth Price 8:12

I hand them a file, and then it comes out on the internet somewhere. Yeah.

Ekemini Uwan 8:16

That's it. I knew the show notes do on us. So anyway, that's how choose Table podcast came to be we came up with the name came up with a tagline. And then through the success of the podcast, we've been the we've been podcasting for five years. And we're now on our sixth season, about this. In 2019, we were approached, I was approached by Penguin Random House to write a book by an editor there and I said, Okay, I had I had a, I have a book idea, you know, but as I'm not ready, it's just still germinating pretty much. And she was like, Well, what about a book for truth table, and we have been approached by a couple of other publishers to do a truce to book but the money just wasn't there. There's three of us. So the money has to be, you know, at least sufficient enough for us to say no to certain gigs in order for us to say yes to this. And so um, so we did sign with Penguin, a while the pandemic began, and everything was shut down. We were accustomed to traveling all the time to speak to do to stabilize to do a whole bunch of a whole host of things, if you will, in the before times, and this is the time, you know, to write the book, maybe we'll have more time. We didn't we all thought we were gonna have more time. That didn't happen. Anyway, we didn't know in summer 2020. And now we're here with a whole book. Now, where's right here is

Seth Price 9:42

I am jealous of that physical copy. You don't know this about me, but I don't talk to an author about what we're talking about unless I've read every word that they wrote about what we're talking about, because I find that disrespectful to your time to come in here with some stupid quiet, not stupid questions. That's the wrong way to say that. I want to have the same energy You poured like you bled things out onto the page. And so I would like to at least look at that blood before we, before we talk about it. Yeah. But my wife gets mad if I could turn my camera to. So to the left of me, there's a bookshelf full of books, many of them I purchased a lot of them I didn't. And then to the right of me, there's four stacks of books that are as tall as my six year old and my wife's like, Stopstopstop. So I only now ask for the digital books, because then I can hide. I can hide that, that guilt and that shame of

Ekemini Uwan 10:32

that's so funny.

Seth Price 10:33

Yeah. So would you wrote four chapters in this book? Right? Yes. 434?

Ekemini Uwan 10:39

Yeah, there's three of us. So we each wrote four chapters. Yeah.

Seth Price 10:43

Yeah. So just at a high level. So the book is called truth tables. Black Women's musings, the rest is memorized. And I don't have it fill it in for me. Love and liberation. That's it. Yes. Life love. Yes. Yes. Did you all kind of work in one massive Google document? Or did you, you know, just write what was on your mind. Here's what's what happened. And here's what we're talking about. And then we come back. And there's some magic happens with the Spirit. And you're like, Yes, see how these all go together? And I asked that, because I asked the same question of every single human that's on the show. And at the end of the year, I edit those into something else. I assign everybody's answer a number. And then I have my kids pick the numbers. And oddly enough, it always tells a story. And I have nothing to do with that. And it is amazing. And that will make more sense at the end of the episode when I ask you that question. So I'm always fun when there's a collaboration of sorts, I always find that fun. So kind of how does that work? For you?

Ekemini Uwan 11:39

Yeah, so um, it's, yeah, so So what we did was for the book proposal, did the proposal when it's time to put in our chapters, I simply was like, Well, you know, we each, we just don't have time to micromanage each other, we trust each other, you know, we trust each other to do to stay in our lane of expertise and do what we do. And so I literally put in my chapters, Christina put in her chapters and chapter summaries, and Michelle put in hers. And that's really what that was, then when it was time to write rewrote, you know, you know, in, in isolation, and that we didn't have a shared Google Doc, like, Okay, here's my section for my chapters in yours. No, it was like, Okay, write your chapters, let's get it in for the deadline and submit it straight to the editor. So none of us saw each other chapters through the process. So we didn't know really the content of what any, any either of us had written besides like little screenshots, like a one little organism, put this in the book, and you know, things like that, but none of us read each other's chapters before editorial, the editorial process, our editor, got the chapters and then we came together when it was time to edit the book we want to get, we wanted to go to New York to edit the book in person together just around the table. But because of at that juncture in the pandemic, we still didn't have vaccines yet. So we need to do that. Yeah, it's urges and which are just happening right now. So we're okay, let's just do it on Zoom. So we all edit it, read it, read our book aloud. One by one, and just read it. Okay, stop. Say that again. rework that dude. Oh, like, yeah, literally, that's how we got there to save a book came to be and so yeah, there was a lot of trust in that process. Because yeah, we did not read each other's chapters before need to rewrite this or do another topic. And that's not the case. Well, you have no, gonna work with that. So

Seth Price 13:39

that's Yeah, yeah, no, I like that. So of the four chapters, I know which one is the hardest to write? Because I think you say so at the beginning of the episode is the chapter on colorism. I'm curious which one just kind of naturally flowed out, though, of the four that you wrote where you're like, yes, yes, absolutely. I've been trying to say this for four years. And I'm glad that you letting me like, which is the one?

Ekemini Uwan 14:00

Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah. I have to think about Yeah. diaspore dreams, blackness is the image of God. It's a brand new one that has no, I'm not building off of anything. Prior to this is like fresh and have been something I've been thinking about, you know, for years, so. But I knew I had somewhat of a direction in which I wanted to go and things I want to talk about. And so yeah, yeah. It's the find that the final chapter of the book actually,

Seth Price 14:31

it is actually so I have a couple questions on that chapter. So I have a couple questions from each of your chapters. Um, so in that chapter, you say there is no shortage of theologians who have proffered countless theories of what it means for human beings to be made in the image of God. Some say the image of God is functional, and that it is what we do and not necessarily who we are. And so I think when people say the image of God, they usually are using it as at least the way that I was raised. that humans have superiority over everything. everything because I'm the image of God, I'm gonna dominate you, I got my dog here. That's not the image of God. Although How could that not be? That's what an unconditional love creature, however, like, can you talk to me a bit about the image of God and kind of how that weaves its way into the overall narrative of this book?

Ekemini Uwan 15:18

Oh, yeah, well, yeah, I think um, even from the beginning, we know when the dedication is to black women who consider leaving a church when their Imago day was not enough, when they're embodied. Were how God made them in their embody blackness has been made to be despised, denigrated, maligned in a host of church spaces. Or, or, and not even just in a church, outside of the church, in America on the whole, and so talking about, you know, who we have been made to be how we have been created, from our features, to our mannerisms, you know, our way of speech, our way of life, all of those things reflect the image of God, all of those things. And we have a body, God chose us to put to create us in this beautiful black bodies. And so we're trying to uphold that. And so, and unless we are Gnostics, we are for her, that the flesh that God has created us in, that are embodied, this is a good thing. Not to say that we're perfect, we're not perfect, that's for sure. That's why we're being sanctified and being made more and more like Christ, but this is a progressive sanctification, but it's not linear. For sure. We go up we go down, that we plateau, you know, we have our we have our moments. But yeah, but I think that you see that throughout the chapters, you know, from the from the first page of the book that's not even page numbered, right? Because it's a it's quite literally that dedication to the end, you know, the book and talking about what what we don't know what will be like, in heaven, but we know that we will be like God, you know, know that we will have a body just like Jesus has a body now. interceding for us now let's do you believe that he raises Casper, the Friendly Ghost, which I think a lot of Christians actually do believe, don't seem to believe. He's embodied right now. He wrote do bodily resurrection. Rise to you know, so? I think in a lot of ways, I'm really just trying to get back to the basics and fundamentals of the face. Because I think in a lot of ways, there's a real profound biblical illiteracy, and just, I don't know, illiteracy with regard to just, or just the face overall, like, Y'all know, this is a tenant of faith. Do you remember that? Recall this to mind and let it bless you?

Seth Price 18:12

Yeah, yeah, this isn't in your book. But when you said the word gnostic, for some reason, I picture the current church, its unhealthiness in its body, and like, it's a body that has no purpose. Am I Am I bending that word in the wrong way? I do not know enough about theology to know if I am.

Ekemini Uwan 18:32

I wouldn't quite put it that way. I mean, I do think I do touch on it a little bit of nos. I think I'd make an allusion to it anyway, in, I think, decolonize establishment?

Seth Price 18:44

I think. So maybe that's why it's there, then, who knows? I'm always terrified with the amount of podcasts that I've done, that none of my thoughts are original anymore. And they probably aren't.

Ekemini Uwan 18:54

I would just say, you know, the church, you know, I'm Jesus died for the church, you know, and that, which is why I'm committed to the church, you know, and so, I think that the church is being perfected and being sanctified. And I do think that the American church, absolutely, God is gonna, you know, it is going to begin and is already beginning to, I guess, if you will begin to correct, you know, some of the, some of the corruption, you know, here and I think God that the American church, just not out the corner market, on the gospel. Church in America is the outer most parts of the earth, okay. So being able to locate ourselves in there as Westerners is really, really important. I think about the global big church and the invisible church. That's a church that God sees in the visible church is the church that we see, you know, it's God that's going to separate the sheep's from the good Oh, that's not my job to do what God called me to do. So when is my time? I can hear well done.

Seth Price 20:08

Yeah, amen on that. Yeah. So the first chapter of the book, so I was reading the book on vacation with my family. And, and because that's, you know that we were up in the mountains, I, we literally intended to go up into the mountains, we were in a log cabin, very minimal, like, we're not talking on the cell phone like there, you either have a cabin number, or you don't know where I am. And that's it. And we loved it. But it was amazing to kind of detach from everything for a while and just play games with my kids. And you know, you know, that kind of stuff. So I'm reading the first chapter, I literally set it down. I was like, wow, that was that was a kick to the mouth. Like I wasn't expecting that on colorism. Being that it's, the whole book is framed, like, we're writing this, not to a white man. Correct me if I'm wrong on that, but like, I'm not the intended audience. And so I was trying to read it with a lens of okay, well, what is this saying to me? And like I was not prepared for a chapter on colorism, because I think you're right. A lot of people don't talk about it. Or they talk around it without saying it. And because it's never named, it's not really a thing. So for those listening that haven't read the book, shame on you, but but also you couldn't have bought it until today. Anyway, so. So what is fair enough? So what is colorism like that? Just that as a whole. And then I also want to kind of talk about that bleach suffocation cream, because that's not a thing that I was, sadly, I was ignorant of that. And like I read it, and I was like, wait, what? I asked my wife and she's like, Yeah, that's a thing. I was like, Why, like that? Why? I'm suddenly like, what the hell? Like I just, you know, so can you talk to me a bit about that?

Ekemini Uwan 21:57

Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, colorism is well, I guess I can start with white supremacy is the why. The how of it. And what of it is that colorism is, you know, inter Well, let me say this way, it's interracial discrimination against people with darker skinned people in preference for people with lighter skin tones. And colorism is practice outside of interracial groups. And so this happens within black Latinx Asian communities, pretty much non white communities all over the globe, colorism is is a present reality. But it is also practiced by by white people outside of the group as well. And so will either confer benefits to lighter skinned people because of their proximity on the color spectrum, right, they're lighter. So they're a little bit closer, you know, in proximity with regard to skin tone, you know, to white people than, say a darker skinned woman like myself, and so they experience higher pay, they get lesser sentencing time when they interface with the criminal justice system. They have a better mate selection within the marriage pool are most likely to be married over against darker skin. Women. So it's a host of things that yeah, that that there are interpersonal and structural realities that come along with colorism.

Seth Price 23:39

Yeah. So what? And this is a question that you phrased in the book, but I like your answer. And so I'd like you to lean into that. What does our Bible actually have to say about colorism? Because you actually call it a part of Song of Songs or Song of Solomon? I'm not sure which one of those I'm supposed to say depends on the book that I have. The Bible that I have. I never read that part. Mostly because I grew up Baptist. So we don't talk about anything that could be not from Paul, if Paul didn't write it, then we're not talking about it. So maybe that's wrong. That's my shirt, but I feel like that's right. And we don't talk about Peter. James. It's Paul are the Gospels. That's all we get. That's That's it. So what does the Bible have to say about colorism?

Ekemini Uwan 24:22

Oh yeah, I think the Bible has to say a lot about it. It's absolutely a sin. Wicked. And it has been nailed to the cross and it will be cast into pits of hell hallelujah. But until then, until that full manifestation of that reality comes to play comes into play, of course, upon Christ's return. We have to do the work of dismantling this that structural wickedness, which is what colorism is or so just as we need to do that with white supremacy and racism, you know, Um, and sexism and misogyny and all those things, you know, we we have to do the work of naming it and then dismantling it and making repair for those things or for the for those ways that that that oppresses, you know, in this case

Seth Price 25:20

you got Do you remember like last year, I had all those weird ad breaks, like he would just randomly be something, we're not doing that instead, I thought I'd do this, I need your help. If you're able to head on over to the website for the show, there are two things that you can do. One is you head over the website, you click the Patreon button or support button, I forget what I call it. And you jump in there, those people helped make the show a thing so that you can listen to it right now, to the easier one, you could just leave a rating and a review on the podcast app of choice that you currently use. Either one of those is fine. But I would love it if you would do either one, specifically the rating and reviewing it's an exponential thing, that the algorithms pick it up and that's just math. It's just compounding on top of itself. Anyway, all that to say was it was the ad break. Now we're gonna get back into it. Going up beside the shots and we just decided on the sheet, got I understand why that's a thing because it's based upon an unrealistic. Here's what it is to be beautiful, which is absolutely ridiculous. Just absolutely ridiculous. But I want to talk about it less from a personal angle in the story that you tell in the book, which is heartbreaking. Like, I'm sorry that that ever happened to anyone. Because that can't that's not that can't just be your story. That's I'm sure that's millions of people's of story. But you talk about again in the diasporic chapter, the bleached, suffocation of Christ. And so how do those kind of conflate and for those listening like the what I'm talking about, as you tell the story in the chapter in the very first chapter of the Book of have a cream that you're like applying to your skin, that's changing the pigment of your skin, but only where you're applying it, which seems weird, which when you apply bleach to things that it's damaging, so I'll let people's imagination kind of run away with that, but But yeah, how is that related to the bleach suffocation of Christ?

Ekemini Uwan 27:34

Yeah, so yeah, I mean, when you think about the fact that I mean this, they're all interrelated. Even from colorism to decolonize, discipleship, even down to you know, the diaspora dreams chapter and then even if you were to go into the singleness one in a way that colorism you know also impacts my story of singleness you know, I talked about in the context discipleship cry the picture of white Jesus as a controlling image that's meant to make you despise who you are meant to make you think White is right. Black Black is not and so when you have an image a controlling image, that which is Patricia Hill Collins is language not my own, but I do say her in the book that's from black feminist thought, but you know, I yeah, I mean, you have that controlling image of, of white Jesus that that's from very early, and also different church spaces, including black church spaces, by the way. Um, you know, you haven't you have it makes you think that this gospel is actually not for you, which is how you know, how much of a miss a dangerous and diabolical miss that is, when you're talking about it Eastern, Eastern religion is out Afro Asiatic in nature, what in the world? Like, how can we ever think that this gospel is not for us as black people? But that is what you're made to think which is why there there's this echo and continual question about is Christianity the white man's religion? Because all you see is white Jesus and all you see is white angels are no, your your little picture book from when the Bible from your from when you're young, have all white characters till this day still, yeah, my niece has one of those and I haven't got to buy her a Bible that does not have that, but that's already implanting. You don't I mean, the seeds that let you know that white is right, and black is not and so if you have that type of mentality, you're internalizing that that's internalized racism that's internalized. And that's white supremacy, right there, you know, the normalization of whiteness over against everything else. So everything else is is everything else is other? Right? It's all your other and and so you begin to take those images in and you think, oh, white is right, clearly because even in my Bible, everybody's white, you know, false why But yeah, so then you begin to really, you take those messages in and then you look at the media. That's what you see. You just look at magazine. That's what you see. Especially if you're a black woman then you see on TV, I see black men. Well, why would what? Wow, like that is that's the way that that is the message that you're given. And so as a dark skinned black girl growing up in California, where you saw that all the time, I'm thinking I need to be lighter, you know, so that I can have the benefits and the privileges that you know what skin sisters have Yeah, when does add in the book that confirms

Seth Price 30:43

that's that's when I sat down the book, like, like that's, that's when I set it down. Because let me let me find the ad. I think I have the page number written down like like literally I was angry because I don't know where you got that. That looks like microfiche, but like for those listening like it, like here's, here's the ad break. So it says the nicest things that happened to girls with light, bright complexions, which is ridiculous. But then just even in the thing, has your phone quit ringing lately? Perhaps your complexions to blame? Like that's when I set the thing down? I'm like, Well, this is what this is. How was this? Like, how I'm so glad that I didn't? I don't know. I don't this not I can't I don't know how to put words to it. Like I'm so mad. I'm so mad, because it's just wrong. Like it's just I don't know, I'm very rarely speechless. I'm still mad about that stupid ad. I don't think I would have been as mad if the ad wasn't in there. And I'm blaming this on you or your or you

Ekemini Uwan 31:39

put that in there because I wanted people to know because I think oftentimes conversation of colorism without resorting to gaslighting it's in your head. You're making it up? No. Here's the data. Yeah. Just add your the numbers. His stats. I'm not making we're not making it up. Yeah, this is.

Seth Price 31:55

Yeah. What does that add in? Like, where did that come from?

Ekemini Uwan 31:59

Natadola. That was probably in all Ebony's jets, probably all those magazines. But this one was from the African American Institute of Historical Studies, I believe. Where Yeah, there was that website that kind of archives. There was an article on there about colorism within there, but it's not the first time I've seen those ads me.

Seth Price 32:25

Oh, it was for me. I'm still mad about it. Yeah, yeah. So what is it to be a truth teller? I mean, you got a table, right? You built this table? You didn't build the table? I don't know how I'm gonna break this metaphor in a minute. What is it to tell the truth? Like to be a truth teller?

Ekemini Uwan 32:43

Yeah, yeah, I think, to be a truth teller is to be a lover of truth, first and foremost. truth about ourselves, the truth about ourselves in relation to God, and the truth about ourselves in relation to one another. And I think that we have to love truth above all else, even when the truth cuts us. Even when it doesn't, it doesn't make us look too pretty. So we love the truth when we know when we're being lauded, praise die. But we don't want the truth. When somebody's telling us that was messed up. You need to confess your sin, and you need to repent and turn. Well, all of a sudden, we can't hear anything. Oh, no. I don't know if I like that true. I'm not sure you're seeing that. Right. And so I think it's first and foremost, you have to be able to love truth, I think for yourself, even when it's hard to receive. And then you know, and then out of that place you you tell the truth to others, but as a outworking of love, not as a weapon. Used to lord it over other people or to harm other people. But just to tell them, this is the way you need to go walk in it. Because God has better for you. Yeah. It comes with a lot of comes at a great cost, let's say.

Seth Price 34:07

Yeah, so there's a part where you tell a joke in here of a website, which is not it's spelt out in a weird way. Maybe it's just the art coffee that happened. It's a hot mess.com. And you're talking about it in that first chapter. Yeah, so I went to that. And, and it's not it's available. Like, you could you could buy it again. Like you could buy that website. So what would you do with that website? Like you get off this and you're like, Oh, I'm taking that. I want that. Like, what are you going to do with that website? That's so funny that you went to the website. I just wanted to see I did the who is I'm like, Hey, she had this. I'm gonna tell her.

Ekemini Uwan 34:40

Oh, yeah. Oh, God. I don't know. What is not a hot mess. Elon Musk buying Twitter. That's a hot mess.

Seth Price 34:50

I don't know what to do with that.

Ekemini Uwan 34:52

It's more than that. It's actually it's very dangerous. Actually. It's happening. There's a lot I mean, there's just a lot. I don't even know I just get this I, honestly.

Seth Price 35:05

Well, I read it, and I was like, I wonder if that's even available. I was like, Hey, it is. So I feel like I had to tell you, because money domains are cheap, you know, just just get that sit on it, do whatever you want to do with it later.

Ekemini Uwan 35:18

That's what I would rather, you know, go to joyful things that was a black joy site or something. There's enough messing around, I don't even want to dwell on.

Seth Price 35:32

Um, so in the chapter on decolonizing, discipleship, which those two words by themselves probably need to be broken apart, which you do in the chapter, but you say, if I'm being honest, I become increasingly concerned with the way that our people are leaving the faith and thereby throwing out the burr reveal baby with baby out with the bathwater, due to legitimate racial trauma, hypocrisy, church hurt and spiritual abuse. And then the time has come long overdue for the church to implement decolonize discipleship. And I can say, I hear a lot of that. So I get a lot of emails from the show you talked about at the beginning, starting a podcast, not knowing what the heck you were doing. And I hear that, and all of a sudden, I think I'm also five or six years in, I get hundreds of emails a month, I have conversation with people that I probably should not be having, because I'm not a pastor, and I'm not trained in anything other than banking, to have any kind of conversations of merit with people, you know what I mean? And it becomes its own thing. And I don't know how to answer those questions. But I hear so many people saying, I'm out like, um, I'm just done with all of this. Like, I'm, I think you're right people just like I'm, I'm done. Another story came out, here we go. Julie, Roy's published another post. This person did another thing. This pastor did this, and I'm done. I'm just I'm sick of it. I'm done with it. I'm over with it. So what? What kind of is that to name that that decolonize discipleship, like, naming that? What is that? And kind of how does that work?

Ekemini Uwan 36:56

Yeah, so yeah. So I wrote this, a blog called the blog post called decolonize. Discipleship mean back in 2018, before this recent or more modern movement toward deconstruction. And I guess decolonization is what some people may know that some people use the term synonymous synonymously. I don't know I see them as two different projects, which is why I put forth a different framework for how to approach decolonize discipleship, which is like I'm just really calling us to disentangle the Christian faith, the Eastern Christian faith, from the sinful mechanisms and additives of American Christianity, and those trappings that are ensnaring many people, and are really a stumbling block to a lot of people, rightfully so. So, to me, I felt it was important to be able to say, like, No, this is legitimate, to fake the pains or hurts the things that you're witnessing. They're legitimate, legit, you know, but don't, don't forsake Jesus, you know, don't throw away the face, you know, behind these things there is you can get to the other side, you know, and I guess you could say, this is kind of like, here's how, like I to have experience, you know, some of these things, and I give, you know, those examples, you know, and host a variety of different spaces in which I've been in. So to me, it was important to be able to kind of thread that needle, so that people can see wow, there's another way Oh, like, don't run, don't run, don't go Jesus, you know, I'm saying, Yeah, you can a lot of when you're traumatized like that, you're subject to black and white thinking. And so you really just can't do nuance, because your brain is stuck. You know, so it's just like, it's all good or all bad. So it's like, no, there is another way. So that's why I had to name that the the racial trauma and the the fallout from the Trump regime. That's, that's really what the way you just have of what we're seeing now is, yeah, is the consequences. Yeah. Election.

Seth Price 39:11

So I'm curious. So you write in that same chapter on decolonizing, discipleship. Maybe I'm saying those backwards, you got a couple different things that humans should do, as they're evaluating how to wrestle with this. And so I'd like to read those questions. But more importantly, which is the one do you think is for you right now? Or if someone was reading this chapter, emails you and says, Hey, I need to wrestle and I need to do some work here. So the questions are so which one do you feel like is is where you should start and and I kind of will tell you where it is for me and maybe that's why maybe I'm wrestling with this actually. I'm certain that I'm I'm wrestling with this. So. So some of the questions that you should ask yourself, it says when your churches when you're evaluating, evaluating whether or not you're your church, is deriving their theology from Kingdom or empire? So some of those questions are does this theology call me to a deep love for God? That causes me to pursue holiness and radical love for my neighbor? does it benefit? Or does this theology cause me to benefit at the privilege at the expense of the marginalized? Does it call for good news for everyone, regardless of their racial or socio economic status, and then you go on, and I won't read them all. But then the one that hits the most for me is does this theology cause me to look in the mirror and marveled at God's handiwork instead of despising my reflection? And I don't even mean that in like a like, I'm a bald white dude. Like, I'm not the most attractive man, maybe I used to be when I had hair, but I'm not anymore. I don't even mean it that way. Like, I mean, like a soul level, like, now you're, you're right, where you need to be like, your, your whole, your beloved, your loved, you know? So have those questions. Which one do you think would be the one that you would respond back with? And say, Yeah, wrestle with this? Because this one is pivotal to the rest?

Ekemini Uwan 41:00

It's hard to say honestly, it kind of depends on who it is. Right? And depends on their social location, I think, you know, like, for that last one, like, you know, do you like who you see in the mirror? You know, like, Do you are you able to, and it really what I'm getting at for that person. And because it is this, I mean, this is the chapter that's probably a little bit more, that extends a little bit beyond the table, into the, into the standing section, room, if you will, and that's what we call the standing section, everybody that's not a black woman, a true symbol is our phantom truth, it was in a standing room section. And so I think that's, that's good at the fact that, you know, the ways in which we are taught to despise and to hate ourselves, and you know, and so it's like, man, like, which again, is that kind of like that controlling image of that, that Jesus and that whiteness? And like, what are you know, I don't do I do I? Do I love myself? Do Can I say that? I am good, like, right? And that my blackness is good. Can you say that? So depends on who, you know, is asking me? Or who is inquiring? And depends on their social location, and where they are, I think all of them are helpful diagnostic questions, to see where you're at, you know, and, and why, you know, why did you or where did you even begin to formulate? Or? Yeah, that, that thought around either theology or your church context? Or about yourself, you know, like, where did that start and, you know, causing people to really do some serious introspection, and soul searching, because I really can't give you the answers to that I can only only these are, these are questions meant for you and God to wrestle with and for you to take into your prayer closet. So even if a person was to email me, I'm like, I'm glad you're wrestling with that. I invite you to go and talk to God about that. One. And then I invite you to go and talk to your pastor about these things. Because I do think the, the this book, it provides as a holistic discipleship. But I just I do think it lends itself well, I'd say to the church to be able to talk about real things that people probably felt were off limits. Yeah. They felt like maybe God has nothing to say about these things, because they don't hear it spoken about,

Seth Price 43:22

quite literally, the reason the name of the show is the name of my show. That's quite literally the reason. Yeah. Yeah, I had a friend he lives over in Charlottesville. And he's like, Yeah, we don't want to talk. You know, you're not can't talk about these topics. Like you can't talk about homosexuality, or racism or money or politics. You can't talk about that stuff. At the church. I'm like, Oh, that's it. You gave it to me, Josh, I appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to talk a bit about that standing room, because that's, that's where I'm at. I'm not at that table. I'm in that standing room. How long before you leave the standing room? And they're standing the waiting area there? And then what do you do afterwards?

Ekemini Uwan 44:05

Yeah, so um, yeah, for standing room section people. It's, it's, it's about supporting the table. I think that's one thing that, you know, it's one thing to say yeah, I support I love to see him I support him. But, but none of that, that support is not shown in tangible ways, whether that's through purchasing our book, right, supporting and actually reading that thoughts of black woman are reading us as credible sources, just like you read everybody else. And you see them as credible sources and you preorder immediately, right? Why when your favorite theologian whoever that is, most likely white male theologian drops a new book or has another book about prayer coming out, you know, okay, what is this person gonna tell me about prayer? But, but because you're sold out. On this reason, you're gonna buy the book, it doesn't even matter. I think That's, that's a tangible way. Obviously, there's also, there's, I mean, although we produce good content, and there's things that there's so many more things that we'd love to do, but we lack resources. And so, which we're grateful for our Patreon community, but I think the standing room section, what they can do is support the work of truth table. Yeah, literally, like $5 $10, or whatever, you know, to support the work of truth table, and the content that we that we produce, so that we can, you know, pay staff and, you know, and keep the work of the choose a few said, we're gonna pray out producers, you know, those things that keep the show going and apply what you're also reading, so not just take it in, as an intellectual exercise, which that's good. But also do the soul work of soul searching, I was searching your own soul, about these topics about these issues, and learning and asking God, how can I love black woman better? How can I better serve my neighbor? I did not know this. I did not know about colorism. That is heartbreaking is terrible. It's wicked, you know? So like, what does that mean? You know, in order to, or what does it look like to be an advocate, to be able to speak out when you see it? In action, or you see it in yourself, and to being able to check yourself as well, right and to check your check your, your associates in your, your, your business partners, right? And your your co workers when you hear them speaking up? You know, when it's time to speak up? That you know, so? So putting these things into practice in so many, there's so many different ways? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyone can get involved.

Seth Price 46:49

Yeah, just a small aside, for those listening that have been listening to episodes for years. With me. I have never learned more than when I read a book from someone that is not a white male, quite literally. A lot of the shifts in my life have come from women in my life, people of color in my life. I was challenged by a quote from professors from Chun Ra. They basically say, Hey, if you feel like you're not in an echo chamber, just look at the books on the wall. And if you don't see anybody that is in a white guy, you're wrong. Like, I'm sorry, if you're upset about that, and that's a paraphrase of his quote, but you're just wrong. And I was wrong. Years ago, I still am wrong a lot of the time, just ask my kids and my wife and anyone else in my family. But I have never been stretched more profoundly than by people that don't look like me. And I think that's the way that it should be. Because that's, that's what it is to be in relationship with one another. Like, that's what it is to be a faith community together. I mean, I love my wife, and we don't agree on a lot of things. But I still learn from that. So just a small aside, you're right. And for those listening, she's right. So do something about it. So the question I like to ask everybody coming in is when you try to like wrap words around God, or the divine, or whatever adjective you want to put there now and they're like, what is that?

Ekemini Uwan 48:18

Okay. Yeah, yeah, God is hidden inside. Oh, yeah. God is just beyond beyond what our finite minds and my minds and imaginations can even hold or even contain. God is Bryce, holy. And I don't think that we emphasize God's holiness enough. And God's Three Penis. Yeah, yeah, God is thrice holy triune one God in three persons, you know, compassionate and abounding in love. And God is my friend. You know, God is my friend, Jesus is my friend. And I get to say that, and I'm grateful for the gift of being able to say that because I was Jesus was not always my friend, I was an enemy of God. You know, I'm very clear about that. That's about telling the truth. I was an enemy of God. And now I've been brought near and have become, yeah, have become a friend of God, and a co heir with Christ. So no matter what happens, no matter what opposition, you know, I face I know that at the end of the day, I have a place in God's house, and that my name is written in the Lamb's book of life. And honestly, that's everything. And that's all that matters. At the end of the day, we're living in such perilous times. We don't know when our lives will be done. mandate of us, you need to know that your name is written in the Lamb's book of life. And if you don't know, then you need to come to Jesus. And try, try Jesus and taste and see that God is good. And so that's what I would say about God.

Seth Price 50:19

Yeah, so see now I feel bad. I love that answer. But now I feel bad that I took that prayer time away from you this morning instead threw that on you in this similar time. Yeah, no, I like how open ended the question is, and that's what I edit all together. And it always ends up like, it's literally me saying, Hey, we made it to the end of the year. Here we go. And you don't hear another word for me. And so it ends up being like an hour and 20 minutes of just people speaking of what God is, and it is literally the most powerful hour of whatever the episodes are that like, I don't know why, like, It's magical. And it does, like it weaves a story where I'm like, oh, that sounds a lot like Luke. Like, I've heard that story before. Or Wow, that sounds a lot like a miss or what, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know, something is powerful. And I love it, that darn question and that answer so Alright, so people are listening in they're like, Yeah, I need to do something where where is it most effective for them to to buy the by the book to do the things to get on on on Elon Musk, his Twitter and support y'all whatever they need to do. I figured I would play right off of I don't know what that is, like, where do you want people to go to support what you're doing? And in support the table there?

Ekemini Uwan 51:29

Yeah. So yeah, there's a lot of different ways that you can support our work, obviously, primarily, we want you to, first and foremost by the book, table black woman's musings on life love and liberation. And then we because yeah, you get our thoughts there. And then you can always listen to our podcast, you know, truth table, black woman's musings on a wait a minute truth table Tuesday to our podcast, we've had a season six right now. And you can always support our work on Patreon that is helpful patreon.com/choose table that is how we are able to pay, you know, pay the walk, but pair Social Media Manager administrators, you know, our production team, and you'll get videos, you know, what, we have video episodes that we give to our patrons. So really watch us an app, you know, so they get to you to get a little something from us. You know, try to put in updates and things like that and there. And then we also myself and Christina, we after this season. It's just actually actually starting probably mid summer, just myself and Christina moving forward to stable and we did a podcast called Getting the word of truth table.

Seth Price 52:51

So second podcast, or

Ekemini Uwan 52:54

Yeah, we launched that one during in January, January one and so that's the daily Audio Bible podcast for you hear myself and Christina reading the Bible. You said Daily. Yeah, that was my Yep. So that was That's intense. Because it's like, Well, you always recorded so I had to do some I did a recording yesterday, I had to do some more recordings. Probably tomorrow. I

Seth Price 53:15

was anxious just now I got anxious for you. Daily Audio

Ekemini Uwan 53:19

Bible podcast is called Getting the word with truth table. And then of course, you can support us on our Patreon. That's another way to support our work because that is a labor of love. You know, it's been good getting in the word, but it is like daily is much different than weekly. And so yeah, you guys can support us that way. And so those are the ways to support us. But yes, please do buy. True stable. black woman's musings on life love and liberation by a couple copies, give them away as it is a type of book where I think it's like, because of the things that we're talking about. I do get a sense that it's the type of book you're gonna give away to some people when you're talking like, you need to read this. Yeah, you know, it's it's the kind of book that I have a sense that it's like, you're gonna have a hard time holding on to them like,

Seth Price 54:06

yeah, no, yeah. Yeah, I agree. I, I have another book like that. I keep buying copies and I keep giving it away. It's on professors from tongue RA and Mark Charles, his last book, I don't know if you're familiar with that book or not. On the the name of the book escapes me now it's a white cover. I bought that book six times, and I still don't have one here. And the one that I gave away first has all of my highlights and notes in it, and I can't remember who I gave it to. But I would like I will give them another one. If they're listening. They're local here where I live. I just can't remember who it was.

Ekemini Uwan 54:41

The benefit of the truth table book is that there is at the back of the book is the opportunity for you to save my music. So a couple of pages, you know, so that you're able to, you know, just write on a desk Nearly bring up some feelings.

Seth Price 55:02

Yeah, you know.

Ekemini Uwan 55:05

So Buy your copy in and you know, you can write your, your music and when you write your music, you're probably not gonna want to give away that copy. That's why you probably will get a couple copies. So you're gonna be pretty personal because of the sensitive nature of the topics that we're talking about. Yeah,

Seth Price 55:21

yeah. 100%. Well, thank you for what you've written. And for that, for that labor, and thanks for being here this morning. Yeah, thank you for having me. On. Oh, we can do this. Just to become a microphone. This force pushing back from the shadow will stop, you got to stop. Now, I haven't added it up. But there are hundreds of 1000s, if not millions of podcasts on the internet. And I am humbled that you continue to download this one. This is your first time here. Please know that there are transcripts of these shows. Not always in real time, but I do my best. And if you go back in the logs, you can find transcripts for pretty much any episode that you'd like. The show is recorded and edited by me, but it is produced by the patron supporters of the show. That is one of the best if not the best way that you can support the show. If you get anything at all out of these episodes, if you think on them, or if you you know you're out and about and you tell your friends about it or Hey, mom, dad, brother, sister, friends, boss, Pastor, here's what I heard. What are your thoughts on that? If this is helping you in any way and it is helping me consider supporting the show in that manner. It is extremely inexpensive, but collectively, it is so very much helpful for you. I pray that you are blessed. You know that you're cherished and beloved. We'll talk soon. Son stronger than feared