Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

Rafael 0:00

The way that people understand and interact with church and I mean, we've been seeing numbers, Barna has been documenting it, you know, millions of people leaving the church, traditional church every year, not because they're losing their faith but because they're they're trying to survive in their faith kind of outside the four walls. Unfortunately, I think the American church has created this institutional empire that for the most part is operating outside of what Christianity is called to be. I think as those things begin to erode we're going to start seeing, I think, more honest conversations. I'm hoping to see a shift of Christianity away from a shame culture, away from law based, shifting more towards a true understanding of grace of a true understanding that if we really say God is in control, whatever your view of that is, do we give people the grace to be where they're at in their journey; or do we feel the need to constantly have to correct in align someone with you know, our theological viewpoints?

Seth Price 1:30

Hey, how are we doing? As always I’m Seth, you're in for a good episode today. So a lot of the people that I end up interviewing on the show are theological based, which is fantastic. And today's episode is no different really. But it's rare that I talk with someone that actually puts together the meat of content in a way that they see both sides. Someone that is both trained theologically but also knows the ins and outs of podcasting and publishing an art and graphic design and all of those small facets really change a person. I think, you know, an artist views the world in a different way a theologian views the world in a different way, a minister, a preacher, a counselor, a producer, they all hear things differently, and they all see things differently. And that's what I like about this conversation.

Over the magic of the internet I sat down with Raphael Polendo, who is the founder is a good word of Quoir Publishing, who has published some books about God and Jesus. And some of those books have become some of my favorite books and some of my favorite episodes of these shows. So those authors would be like, you know, Keith Giles, and Mark Karris and Brandon Andress, and those three authors have written some books that really have impacted my faith and my life tremendously and so I am personally thankful for those. And I'm thankful for institutions like Quoir that would allow those books to exist in a world that prior maybe they wouldn't have.

So we talk about, you know the history of evangelicalism, the the future of the church pillars of the faith and what those look like going forward. I mean, the conversation goes in a lot of places but what I think you'll hear, what I trust that you'll hear, is a genuineness and a love and Rafael’s voice and his concern and and his purpose and his mission as he sees it. And so let me know what you think. Comment on the show rate and review this show, just let me know, Facebook it whatever you need to do, but I really look forward to hearing your feedback on this one. Here we go roll that say, Rafael Polendo.

Seth Price 3:48

Rafael Polendo, dude, I'm excited to have you on to the show.

Rafael 3:51

Likewise.

Seth Price 3:52

Welcome to the Can I Say This At Church podcast, and I'll be honest, and we referenced this a minute ago. I don't usually talk with people that also produce a podcast and so in the back of my mind, I'm like, don't screw up because you're gonna be graded on a scale of, you know, 1 to 100.

Rafael 4:07

What's funny, what's going on in my head is don't screw up because I don't want to cause you to have to edit additional stuff, because I know the pain of how much time and energy it takes after the fact.

Seth Price 4:18

One of the worst ones I've had to edit and it's recent. So it's actually this Mondays and I don't know when this release and so for reference for everybody, it was whatever the Monday is the last Monday that you could still be in March, whatever that Monday is…

Rafael 4:35

Okay.

Seth Price 4:37

…with Shane Claiborne and Mike Martin. So his Skype, kept doing one of these…(skipping), but it was actually just splitting apart the syllables. I wasn't clipping anything. So I had to find each and every single piece and I'd have to put it right back together. It took me hours, but I was like, you know, it is worth it. Because if not, it sounds like a bad connection. And it's not it's just that Skype sucks as a program. So I was like, I can make this work and for the most part, I only missed like two as I listen back. I'm like, I don't think anybody will even know. But I know, and the Patreon supporters know because they get an unedited version. But outside of that, yeah, nobody else knows.

Rafael 5:15

So well except except for now the secret's out.

Seth Price 5:18

Yeah, Michael, get a better internet. If you're listening. Fix it, fix it. But Welcome to the show. I'm excited that you're on. I'm excited. I'm excited to chat with you. So I always like to start the same way. Who are you? Why are you what you are and kind of what you know, specifically, just to match the tempo of the show, what is the theology in you that is made you you know, from maybe your youth to now like, what is making you you?

Rafael 5:47

Well, you just come right out the gate with the good stuff. Everybody

Seth Price 5:49

Everybody always says that like, “okay, we're okay. We're doing it”.

Rafael 5:53

No small talk. No, no easing into it. Let’s just go right in.

Seth Price 5:56

Yes, that's not edited out. I just go right in.

Rafael 6:01

(laughs) Love it.

Well, your first question, who are you? I always laugh because I think of that scene from that movie Anger Management. And Jack Nicholson is pressing him and he's like, no, who are you? And he's like, well, I'm listening. He's like, “No, no, don't tell me what you do. Tell me who you are”. It's just like, sorry, going down this existential wormhole. But, yeah, I'd say. Let's see, I'm a husband and a father, new new father. My son's four months old now.

Publisher. So my wife and I started Quoir Publishing few years ago. I'm a graphic designer by trade coming up on 20 years. I am a follower of Christ was raised in the church. And I guess this kind of dovetails into into the next question. So from a very young age, I was I was raised in the church. I think at like four years old, they would put me on stage to recite Bible verses in front of the crowd and, you know, people would clap and cheer and stuff and so I kind of had that fearlessness about me. And I was trying to, you know, evangelize to little kids at birthday parties and stuff like that. So that's the environment I grew up in, around.

I went to Christian Elementary in junior high. Around junior high, we started attending a very small startup church, where it's the type of place where you wear multiple hats. And so I was the youth pastor, I was on the worship team, and then I was also filling in for the pastor as he would go on speaking engagements and stuff. So just very immersed in church culture, in Christianity, from a fairly conservative evangelical background. And so that was kind of like my upbringing. And then, several years after that, I read a red book called Pagan Christianity, and that book basically destroyed me in all the best ways.

So from that point forward, a lot of my theology came into question and I started digging into, you know, questions that were coming up in my mind, deconstructing quite a bit reconstructing and so that was kind of what kicked off that whole process.

Seth Price 8:13

You said that’s called Pagan Christianity?

Rafael 8:15

Yeah, Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola. So at the time I saw I had gone to Biola University, I was a Bible minor, with a major in art, and was going to mega church at the time. (I) was not dissatisfied with the church was not, you know, frustrated by any means was pretty content. And I read this book, and basically, the premise is what we do and consider normative in the modern church doesn't really have a basis in the New Testament. And they kind of trace historically, these practices that we take for granted as church and kind of show where their origins came from.

And it's not necessarily that just because something hasn't pagan origins is bad, but the point they were making was that the byproduct of these practices that we've inherited have actually distracted us from the vision and calling and mission of the church. And so I had read this book, just out of curiosity, and it just wrecked me. And so I was just left kind of feeling like the rug was pulled out from under me. It was the first time that my worldview was like significantly shaken. And from that point forward, I spent (time) researching and reading and digging into, you know, what is church? How does the New Testament vision of it? And that was really the, I like to say it was the the first thread of the sweater that kind of got tugged. And once that started unraveling, you know, there was a few other doctrines and ways of understanding theology that started to quickly unravel after that. So you know, that that kind of led to this deep deconstruction, reconstruction.

Seth Price 9:50

If it was a sweater, what is it today?

Rafael 9:53

Oh, it's like a bikini speedo! (laughter)

Seth Price 9:55

Is the goal to reknit something or just leave the lying on the floor?

Rafael 10:00

Yeah, no, I'm definitely not a fan of deconstruction just for the sake of burning it all down. And I know a lot of people have a difficult time with that term deconstruction. But I, I really see it as relating to, I think was, was it Michelangelo, his quote about sculpting David, where he, you know, “all he did was chip away everything that was not David”. And so for me, it's really, I'm still very much centered on Christ and understanding not just Jesus as the Christ, but even just the cosmic, all encompassing, understanding the Christ. And so anything that I come across that I feel, begins to, you know, distract or cover up or reduce the Christ. Those are the things that I want to deconstruct and kind of chip away so that hopefully at the end, I have a more full more vibrant, larger, more freedom producing vision of who Christ is.

Seth Price 10:57

Yeah. I'm curious, so I didn't know that you did graphic design. But to be fair, I, on purpose, did as much research as I needed to know that I knew enough that I needed to just start a conversation with you. Almost like my friend told me in the car, like we're having beers with Raf. And so here's three things about him. Have a beer and just get into it.

Rafael 11:19

You didn't Facebook stalk me…?

Seth Price 11:23

It's always weird. I'll go back though now and I'll go back like five years on purpose and I'll just like, like, one picture from 2013. Just one picture and then you'll Yeah, you'll know it's me.

Rafael 11:34

Yeah, you have to do it like three in the morning. This is going well.

Seth Price 11:37

Well, to be fair, we're like three hours apart. So I'm not getting up at six in the morning to do this not although I get up at six anyway. Yeah, I'll do that.

Rafael 11:47

Naturally?

Seth Price 11:48

Yeah, well, six my time. I gotta go to work. So I work at a bank. So yeah, we had to get there like eight so yeah, but I went to school at Liberty for graphic design. And then hated it like literally got out of school and hated it.

Rafael 12:06

The design or the school?

Seth Price 12:08

Well…at the time. I got that question the other day because I rag on Liberty a lot but I feel like I'm allowed to because I spent a lot of money there so this is my house if I want to rip the wall down I will I spent a lot of money here I have a degree from here I'm an alumni and so yeah you can gripe all you want about Jerry Jr. whatever. But I met his dad we had dinner a few times when I met his wife and I know Jonathan Falwell decent enough and and so I can gripe if I want to gripe I earned that right.

Yeah, so I don't hate this school. I don't agree with this theology anymore. But I'm thankful that I went there. Like I don't know that I would be where I'm at now, either career wise or religious wise had I not gone there and some of my best friends came out of Liberty. But no graphics does that I hate it because I get so angry that people don't know what they want, if that makes sense?

Rafael 13:05

Oh yeah!

Seth Price 13:07

Like, like, I'll make this and show it to you. And you are like, “I don't like it”. What don’t you like? “I just don't like it.”

So for me, my deconstruction kind of started when I had kids like it changed the way that I emotionally viewed things. And I guess to play off that Michelangelo metaphor, I imagine those emotions were all always there. I just never really had to use them, because it was just me and my wife, and my friends. And it's, you know, it's a different set of emotions. Fisher. And I could ask you that easily. And I probably will. But I'm curious how as an artist, how has your art either helped you see God a different way, or change the way that you currently see?

Rafael 13:43

That's a good question. So I think for me, it's the excitement whenever I realized that there's more creativity, not only in just the world around us, but even in the way that we interpret Scripture and the way that we interact with God, I think that that, for me makes me come alive. And so recognizing, again, kind of this more expansive, all encompassing view of the Christ, where suddenly you're able to go out in the world and interact and be looking for manifestations all around you.

And it just kind of opens up the world into a way that allows you to enjoy it and appreciate it. And you almost become a treasure seeker. Because when you realize there's Christ and everyone that the Incarnation is just totally saturated. You know, Richard Rohr his new book. I haven't read it yet, but I know this is a lot of what he talks about that I think it just makes life more vibrant, more exciting. So as someone with a creative background, I think that excites me to be able to try and look and see and discover him in different ways beyond kind of what you're handed and just traditional conservative Christianity.

Seth Price 14:55

I haven't read the book either. But my pastor said, “Hey, he has a podcast out. It's like 14 After 12 episodes”. And “he's like, just listen to the podcast. It's basically the book with like director commentary”.

Rafael 15:07

Really?

Seth Price 15:08

So I fired it up maybe 20 minutes ago, like I was literally finishing the dishes before I came downstairs to talk. And the first question that these people asked Richard is, how do you explain the concept of Christ to your kids? Like, when you're when your child is like, five years from now, and I was like, That's such a good question. I'm stealing it. I'm stealing. So if you're listening, I'm sorry, but it's a great question. It's not my fault, but I'm stealing it. I tend to not listen to other religious podcasts specifically for this purpose, but I was like, You know what, no! I want to list.

Rafael 15:38

Well, you do listen to Heretic Happy Hour

Seth Price 15:41

I do! Yeah so you produce that right. So you produce that one in like 27 other podcasts? It's not 27 but it's quite a few right?

Rafael 15:50

So for sure Heretic Happy Hour, and then we just launched Bookish and then we do have about three in the works but they haven't launched yet. So technically just two for right now.

Seth Price 16:01

And you produce them all?

Rafael 16:03

Yes.

Seth Price 16:04

Yeah. So I know how much work this show is my question would be why? Like, why not subcontract that out in some way, shape, or form?

Rafael 16:13

Well, so to be fair, two of the ones that will be coming out, they are recorded and edited by the host and then they'll send it to me for final kind of mastering. So when I say “produced” it's kind of a loose term just more overseeing the process, giving feedback suggestions kind of helping steer navigate, be a partner so to speak. But as far as like the nitty gritty hands on Heretic Happy Hour is pretty much the one that takes up my time. And it's because just the nature of the show, there's a lot of, you know, bits and in audio samples and things.

Seth Price 16:53

Yeah, well when you have that many people, but it's always hard, like I know the multiple interviewees when I have those ones I like those episodes, but they're way more work way.

Rafael 17:00

Yeah, yeah.

Seth Price 17:05

One thing I love about that show is they know how to disagree without apparently wanting to kill each other. Which is, honestly, I mean, it's funny, but it's rare like, yes, it's just rare specifically for Christians to not just not just you know unthread the sweater, but just literally light it on fire and then pee on the ashes.

But that product is like a byproduct of your publishing. And so I wanted to talk a bit about that. Why two decades into graphics design would someone go “you know what I'd like to do? I'd like to create content, both in audio formats, and in print format.” That makes no sense to me. Like I don't understand why someone would want to do that?

Rafael 17:52

Yeah. Well, to be honest, it doesn't make sense.

Seth Price 17:55

Not even to you.

Rafael 17:57

Yeah, but it was I think it's just part of the journey. For me, the way that I try and live my life is looking for kind of the signs or the open doors or the open windows, so to speak, and getting a feel for potentials and possibilities and stepping into those and seeing if fruit comes out of it. And if it does, all right, keep going down that direction. So that was kind of a vague answer. But being a designer, I, several years ago, was connected with a guy who was in pretty big in the Christian publishing world. And there was new technology coming out from Ingram, which is a major distribution company, and they were launching a print on demand service for books.

And so he was in a position to help authors self publish through this platform. And so he knew I was a designer and he asked if I want to design a book cover for him. So the first book they were going to be launching was from a guy who had been previously published with larger publishers. He was coming out with a book called The Last TV Evangelist. So his name is Phil Cook.

And so they asked me to do the cover. I did the cover. It was so fun, because I love books. I love reading, but I had never designed anything for books before. And you're probably looking it up right now.

Seth Price 19:19

I am! You saw my eyes dart down?

Rafael 19:21

(laughs) I did, I did!

So I designed the cover. And then he asked me to do the interior of the book, which I've never done before. And I was like, Oh, yeah, sure, I can do that. And that was just a whole other beast, you know, doing the layout for, you know, 200 Plus page book. definitely learned a lot through the process. But by the end of it, I enjoyed it. And so he continued to refer me to other authors that needed books. And so (I) got very familiar with book layout process with with the print on demand process. And simultaneously, this is kind of when my deconstruction had started.

And so I was running in some circles where there were guys who are self published who had great content. But because they were self publishing, they weren't designers, the package didn't quite match the value of the content. And that just broke my heart because people do judge a book by its cover. And so figuring out is there a way I can help these guys obviously use my gifts and talents partner with content that I believe in that I think is legitimate, and, you know, hopefully elevate its status. So that's when the idea for Quoir kind of was born. If we started a boutique publishing company, that was really part ministry, part creative outlet. You know, we could partner with authors, and also in a way where we can ensure that the majority of the royalty goes back to the author, because I've heard too many horror stories of, you know, authors that get pennies on the book sale and are still expected to do all the marketing. And yet the publishers are, you know, taking all the money from that.

So that was kind of the genesis of Quoir was strictly book publishing. And as we continue to get books coming in, you know, when we first started, I thought, you know, we would be inundated with books from people who are like, Oh, this is from my cousin's grandma's grocers, second nephew, you know, take a read, and it would be terrible. But I was frankly shocked that from the get go, we were getting really quality manuscripts of books of people who are just hungry to get their work out there, but didn't want to go it alone.

And so we we found ourselves in this in between space, between traditional publishing, and self publishing. So we just started kind of owning that. And the books that started coming our way tended to be on the fringes of Christianity, where they weren't outside the bounds of Orthodoxy, but they probably weren't books you would find in Lifeway.

Seth Price 21:45

And certainly not now.

Rafael 21:47

Especially not now. So we really started kind of cultivating this. I guess this genre of books for people who are either just beginning or in the midst of deconstruction, where they're willing to ask questions. Where the books represent conversations that are worth having, regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the, you know, the premise. And so we just started attracting more and more folks like that. So as that was developing, then realizing that, you know, there's other avenues of producing content besides just books. And if we could create sort of this ecosystem, where content is coming in different formats and different media, different ways that people consume it, then we could really transition; and this is my vision for for this year is transitioning Quoir from a publishing company strictly to more of a media company. And so that's why we're launching more podcasts.

We're actually finishing negotiations right now with a university to begin offering online courses that will be produced for our authors. And so that'll be another way that people can consume the content and take deeper dives into some of the, you know, theological and other types of topics that our books cover.

Eventually, I'd love for us to get into like short films and music in some degree and figure out a way where it makes sense. Where we can operate and again that in between space similar like we do with publishing.

Seth Price 23:14

Am I safe in assuming you read every manuscript that comes or you're like, not looks good. And then but I feel like to me as as also going to school for graphic design, like you can't make something if you don't know what it's about, like at a deep level. So do you read everything or you just let the author tell you what you're supposed to think of it?

Rafael 23:33

So that's a great question.

So everything that we publish, I have read. So typically a manuscript will come in and I have a handful of people, some of them are authors, actually, that all send the manuscript to just for like an initial read. So people whose taste I trust who I feel really understand our vision and what we're after, just to kind of get a pre-check. And then if they give the thumbs up, or they say, yeah, this looks good. Then I'll take the time to read through it and make sure it fits. So it kind of helps to have that pre-screening process. But at the same time, because I do want to read each book, it definitely creates a lag time in our review process.

So, you know, for authors out there who submit to us, they just have to be okay with waiting a month or two before they hear back because I mean, we're pretty backlogged right now, which is exciting. It's a good problem to have.

But I think it just shows the need for people who want to get their message and their content out there and kind of don't feel like they have very many options. And so they reach out to us and want to partner with us. And it's on, one hand daunting, and on the other hand, it's very humbling to just to see that people are willing to trust their baby with us, you know, to take it to the finish line.

Seth Price 24:52

Glad that you said yes. My fear was that you're going to say no, which means I had very few options of where to steer this episode. And so my wife will tell you that I asked a lot of, so does my boss, like I very rarely asked a question that I don't know the answer to, although that was one of them. Because I like to, I run a bank. So I like to control all the pieces on the board. Whether or not I'm good at it. I don't know, but I like to do it. So if you were to pick maybe two or three books, which I know isn't fair, so I'm not going to ask you what your favorite book is. Because if you're like me, I read enough books that I'm like, this is my favorite or this is my favorite like…you know, like if I had why wrote a few blog posts on on the website, if anyone listening wants to read them, the ones that were most impactful, but even then it wasn't the book wasn't the reason it was the most impactful. It was the way that the book made me come to terms with something I was dealing with. As my sweater eroded into a smaller sweater.

Rafael 25:47

You're not at bikini status yet?

Seth Price 25:49

Well, I don't have the bikini body. So I don't know that I'll ever be it so you only have one kid but when you have three the bikini status goes away for “Oh, somebody has an extra curricular activity every single night”. And then maybe because you're going on vacation next week, we're also going to pick up an extra night to make up for something that we can't do next week.

Rafael 26:15

Oh, boy.

Seth Price 26:17

Yeah, those are real…they're fun weeks. Um, and then on top of that we do this (podcast)!

I'm curious. So if you were to take two or three books that you're like, you know, as I look back over these last few years, how long has Quoir been been publishing?

Rafael 26:50

Since 2015?

Seth Price 26:53

Yeah. So you go back over the last four years now, three years, four years? What are two or three books that you're like this book impacted the way that I see God and here's why. You scroll back through, you're like, yeah, after I read this manuscript, like, I'm a different human being now because of this work?

Rafael 27:09

But I love that you asked that question because honestly, that's the feeling that I want to have after each manuscript we read. For me personally, I feel like if a book is not either, you know, challenging the status quo in some respect or pushing you outside your comfort zone, what's the point of reading it, you know? And so that's the feeling I'm kind of chasing, so to speak, after reading each manuscript and so definitely the first one that did that, for me was Jamal's book Free to Love. And that one product, a ton of controversy, kind of right out the gate, which was interesting, because it's technically the second book that we published. And so it was, it was a gamble that early on.

But for those that have read it, I feel like for me what it is did was it expanded my understanding of what it means to love one another. And it really opened my eyes to a God who is really seeking for his children to live in oneness, and in a way where we're not competing in hierarchy but we're really seeking the best for one another as brothers and sisters. And so I think that just kind of solidified that, that view for me.

And it had some ramifications even for how my wife and I dated and eventually got married and how we viewed our relationship. Which for us has been really, really healthy and helpful. But I think it really gave us some perspective and context to make sure that we didn't turn our marriage into an idol like we've seen, you know, other people do around us.

Seth Price 28:52

How so? Like if you were to use a fancy word, so what would be some of the things that you orthopraxy of that like what, what are a couple things that you're like, here's what we got to do?

Rafael 29:03

So the first thing that comes to mind is, so in one respect, I think there's this tendency, especially with conservative Christian couples is once they get married, they'll isolate from community. And it becomes just very, you know, very us very family protected as who we are. And from the get go, we wanted to make sure that our relationship was one where we actually welcomed community, and were inviting people into our relationship, not in an open relationship, you know, sexual kind of way, but we wanted to just be very transparent and, and live in such a way where just because we're married didn't mean that we are going to like peace out and go do our own thing.

So that's one respect and another is just kind of the way that we continue to trust one another in relationships. We are, personally, we are okay with cross gender relationships. And so there's this practice that we had started for Valentine's Day where neither of us, we're big fans of Valentine's Day.

Seth Price 30:03

You don’t like chocolate?

Rafael 30:06

I love chocolate.

But I don't want to wait one day a year. So Valentine's Day was coming up the first year we were married and we kind of talked about it. We're like, you know, we don't really need to have this day to celebrate each other. What if each of us takes out one of our single friends who is of the opposite sex and just like treat them and spoil them and make them feel loved and appreciated that day. And so my wife took out one of my guy friends, I took out one of her girlfriends, and it was just awesome because we planned this special date around them and their interests and what they love. And it was just such an awesome time and to be able to have the freedom to trust who you're in relationship with, and that they trust you. Obviously, we we still have healthy boundaries and you know, certain things, parameters that we maintain, because we're not ignorant of you know, what can happen But I think we don't want to live in fear. And we don't want to allow our lives to be dictated by fear. And so we'd rather extend grace and love and just kind of live in a way that is pretty cross cultural so that folks can see that if we're claiming the name of Christ, that there is something substantially different about how we are in relationship with other people.

Seth Price 31:24

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I cut you off there. You were going to the next book.

Rafael 31:29

Oh, next book! Let's see. Top of mind, I would say I'm trying to remember like the chronological order, but I know Keith first book Jesus Untangled that one really rocked me because it was something I hadn't really considered before. So it kind of came out of left field, but it really challenged my view and understanding of politics.

And specifically, just if we are serious about the kingdom of God and what Jesus came To fulfill in how he empowered us, then how is that being applied in our daily lives? That's where I feel like the orthopraxy comes in is, regardless of whether you agree or disagree with Keith's ultimate premise and his conclusion, the fact remains that, you know, we are in this world and we're supposed to be operating out of a different mindset then, you know, buying into the culture wars.

Yeah. So that one, that one was the one that rocked me as well. And then Mark Karris's book, Divine Echoes, hands down best book on prayer I've ever read. For me, prayer was always kind of kind of weird, because it, it's definitely not at least wasn't logical, the way we approached it. And, you know, you, you just kind of write it off. It's like, well, it's just one of those things. It's mysterious and you know, God's ways are higher than our ways but for Mark to really come at it from a way that was not only faithful to the biblical texts, but faithful to the human logic, and faithful to God's Self emptying kenotic love. I just feel like he took all these disparate threads and really, you know, put it together in a way where it was very tangible, very practical, and in a way that I feel gave honor to God and honor to us as agents of freewill. So it was, it was a phenomenal book.

Seth Price 33:18

Yeah, I would agree on Mark’s. And I will say, you know, I spoke with Keith, I think Keith was like one of my, I don't know, second or third times doing this. Honestly, I'd like to do over on that episode, but I don't know that I’d ask different questions. Because I struggle with, with politics with some days. I'm like, yeah, I'm right there with Keith and other days. I'm like, I have to say something like, yeah, I this needs somebody needs to say something like, I can't just sit here and watch everybody argue somebody needs to be the adult here. Because none of y'all are doing it. But I feel the tension. I totally feel the tension.

But I get so much flak still every week. From even having Keith on the show to talk about politics on a show called Can I Say This At Church, which is really oxymoronic. I'm like you do realize the, the whole premise here, but it's fine. But Mark's book so it changed me deeply as well. And I've loved getting to know Mark, but my wife and I, lead a Sunday school every other month for the youth that are at our church. And a few months ago, like I was like, we're just going to pray differently. I'll do it. I don't want to go to prayer, because we're not praying about cats, or your test, or your friend. I don't want to do any of that.

So I tried to pray, you know, in a conspiring way in in the best way that I could have top of my head and at the end, like a lot of the kids were like, I've never heard of prayer like that. I was like, well, we're gonna do it again next week. I'm still awful at it. But I will say every time I do it, I'm like, this feels good. Like this is the way that I should have always been praying.

Yeah, his book and Luigi Gioia, he's at Cambridge, but he’s Italian. I'm sure I said his name wrong. Those two books Mark’s and his book is called Touched by God. But I like Luigi because he gives me theologians that have never heard from like, that portion of the world that I'm like, Oh, this is brilliant. Yeah, this is brilliant.

What is the future then? So if you're going to turn into the Vox media to questions about choir, so do you want to remain on the fringes or do you plan to do to allow people to do mainstream stuff as well? So if you had someone like, uh, I don't know, I can't think of someone on top of my head. Like someone from Intervarsity that they're like, hey, I'd like to put this out. I'm not trying to rock any boats it just like a John Walton. Would you? Is that too centralized like are you trying to stay on the fringe?

Rafael 35:54

Yeah, so I will say at this point, we're trying to stay on the fringe, but it's because we have an understanding and a vision that the fringe is actually where the church is headed. So I think that we're beginning to see this massive shift culturally and theologically. Where kind of the voices that have been marginalized and silenced in the past, especially thanks to internet, proliferation of content, democratization of, you know, distribution platforms that we're really starting to see a shift, a fundamental shift, in Christianity. And so what I'm trying to do, and you know, history will say if it's successful or not, is, you know, I'm trying to throw where I see the receiver running, rather than, you know, where they're at at the moment. So hopefully, you know, taking a correct pulse on what's going on in Christianity, seeing the way that it's going and hoping that we can be at the forefront of kind of this next movement and this next wave.

Seth Price 36:51

I'd like to drill there. What is that forefront like if so my son is about to enter next year. He'll in of the fifth grade. And so he's getting to an age that all of those issues like will become real, like less Nerf guns and real issues. Even thought it’s at a very low level, but there's still, I mean, I can't remember being in school and just from hearing him and his friends talk like, it's about to get real, which is terrifying. Yeah, it's very terrifying.

But I mean, within the next few years, you know, sexuality is going to be a thing, gender is going to be a thing. Everything will become more of a thing. So if we're going to drill there, what do you see the big shifts are going to be like, what will be the things that either break apart everything that we know of the church into whatever's left whatever rubble is left, or what will be the thing that we were able to rally behind and move forward over the next few years?

Rafael 37:45

Great question.

So I think this is something Jamal actually referenced in one of the early heretic happy hour episodes, but he talks about kind of the four pillars of modern evangelicalism. And these are the things that I feel like are going to be eroding in a major way.

One is the inerrancy and infallibility of Scripture, I think there's going to be a shift in terms of how we view the Bible. Not in a way that denigrates it or, you know, relegated to just an unnecessary relic from the past, but in a way that allows us to engage the text more faithfully. So I think that's one major shift that's coming.

Another one he talks about is our understanding of hell. That one's fascinating to me, because it's my personal view that it's our understanding of hell that allows the heresy hunting and charges of false teaching and this like very emotional, worked up response to theological differences. Because if we had a vision of hell, or an understanding of hell, that that was different from eternal conscious torment. I think it would take a lot of sting and the bite out of those theological disagreements because we wouldn't be battling over you know, eternal security. But I think I think it would help to allow us to have conversations in a way that was healthier. So how I think is one.

Another one is just basically the, you know, Calvinist view of salvation.

And then, really, I think the fourth pillars is the way that people understand and interact with church. And I mean, we've been seeing numbers Barna has been documenting it, you know, millions of people leaving the church, traditional church every year, not because they're losing their faith, but because they're they're trying to survive in their faith and outside the four walls. So, unfortunately, I think the American church has created this institutional empire that for the most part is operating outside of what Christianity is called to be.

And so I think as those things begin to erode, we're going to start seeing, I think, more honest conversations. I'm hoping to see a shift of Christianity away from a shame culture away from, you know, law based, shifting more towards a true understanding of grace, of a true understanding that, you know, if we really say God is in control, whatever your view of that is, do we give people the grace to be where they're at in their journey or do we feel the need to constantly have to correct in a line someone with, you know, our theological viewpoints? I think the LGBTQ issues is huge, you know, especially with what happened recently in church, but I think it's just a matter of time.

And I think the more that we align with understanding the essence of love, and especially in the way that Jesus embodied it, and and displayed it, I think that's really the way that the church is going to be shifting and moving; especially as the new generation comes up our ideals, I can't even say art because I'm not even part of the new generation. (Chuckles)

Seth Price 41:00

Sure you are.

Rafael 41:02

Their ideals are just more in line with an inclusive understanding of what love looks like and acceptance in and trust. One of my one of my favorite bands is Thrice I don't know if you got a chance to hear their new album but there's songs on there that lyrically are just phenomenal. I feel like they really captured the heartbeat of where the shift is headed. So if you get a chance, check out their album. It's called Palms

Seth Price 41:29

I will. I haven't listened to that the album lately that's been on repeat for me. So there's two and I want to come back to the pillars because I agree with those pillars, but I have a question for you on one of them, but the two so Heath McNease has a new album and I don't know if you know Heath McNease. But the man is the man his money. So what's the name of his newest album? Oh, I’d have to pull it up. But it's a brand new album. It was out like two weeks ago for a few few days there like he was sandwiched between Dr. Dre and Tupac on like this. way. Yeah, like he's like, hey, somebody, did anybody get a screenshot, but it was for a few days.

So Heath’s music and for those that have listened to the show, there was a bunch of music on the first four or five episodes in a row. And that's all Heath. Okay, that's all his music for people that want to go away back in the library. But he just does some amazing things. So he's able to sing in like a John Mayer-ish way and then also just freestyle bars for days. And he's good. And then the other one is, William Matthews Kosmos.

I don't know if you've listened to that at all. Yeah. So you referenced hell and that's one of my favorite topics, but I don't talk about so you don't believe in eternal conscious torment? What do you believe?

Rafael 42:46

Yeah. So my first shift away from eternal conscious torment was actually thanks to one of our choir authors. And he's actually one of the people who helped us get the company started because he allowed us to transfer his entire collection over the choir and his name is John Zen's. So he's written a lot in the like organic church circles. But he was the initial person for me that shifted my thinking from eternal conscious torment to an annihilationist view. And so that was kind of like, again that that first thread when it comes to hell, realizing like, Oh, wait, you know, you're not going to burn forever. It's a temporal thing that makes more sense. You know, it fits more with the nature of living God. So that was the first shift there and then just reading different people, I read some and listen to videos from John Crowder, who is someone who has an inclusionist view of salvation, and then obviously digging into Matthew just a fun Oh, read his book All Set Free before he came over to Quoir. And you know, he's arguing for a Universalist view and then reading a few more books on universalism.

So I would say that I am happy in the universalist camp. I think there is no good scriptural support for eternal conscious torment. So I'm not willing to concede that one. I will say annihilationism is still possible. I think you could make a case for that. But personally, I feel the weight of evidence lies more with the patristic universalism, classic universalism. So it's actually something we're really excited about for an upcoming book is Keith Giles is going to be writing kind of his treatise on patristic universalism. So yeah, excited to put that out there.

Seth Price 44:40

That’ll be fun, I’ll read it. Yeah, I'm right there with you. Although I still lean annihilation. So those are the first two episodes I did and so I went ahead and did what the time it was George MacDonald, but he's Robin Parry now, and then I did John Stackhouse was like let's just go both ways.

I'm still not quite like I'm not ready again yet to actually like tackle it for an hour because I'm just not I'm just not just not there, just not comfortable. And I try to be as genuine as possible in this and just not comfortable. So if the church switches and assuming like any structure, there's four pillars, there's four corners, there's four, well, I guess there's some eight, whatever doesn't matter four pillars out of any structures it's gonna, the integrity is gone. And so when that institution collapses, because I feel like a lot of people talk about the collapse of the church, myself included, and then we don't realize that the church does like a lot of good things like it, we do a lot of crappy things. We do a lot of good things too. And you need both subsets of the church.

You need that nondenominational very loosely formed to allow people a place like myself or other people, to a safe place to go, and a safe place to feel included in worship. But you also like that church is never going to send people to Haiti to help after an earthquake. Like they just don't have the structure. And so if the pillars are gone, what happens with all that institutionalized resources? Like what do we do with those? How do we redirect the way that you and I will have to like sacrifice personally, to replace that? Because that work still has to get done. And I don't trust the government to do it, nor do I really want them to. You know, I mean, like, I don't know how to replace one institution with another without it being equally unhealthy?

Rafael 46:25

Yeah, that's a good point. And I think that's really a difficult question to answer just in terms of, you know, at what point does a movement become a self serving institution? I think that's been a question for thousands of years, because it's just the pattern that we see over and over, and it's probably part of our human propensity. But I think, I mean, the way I think it could work is realizing that if Church as a capital C, as an institution, did not function as it did today that we would still have things like nonprofits that we would still have things like businesses and organizations that, you know, people of faith would create and raise up. But it is fundamentally different from an understanding of church.

So, I think that, you know, there's great organizations out there that are doing phenomenal, you know, humanitarian aid type work. I personally have a hard time with the ones where it's a bait and switch. Where, you know, we'll we'll give you some humanitarian aid, but first you have to listen to the sermon. I think unfortunately, that's one of the like, the bad elements of when church, you know, blends into this. But I do think that, you know, even for atheists and people who don't have faith, there are organizations and humanitarian aid that happens.

So I think just because the church as an institution, possibly could cease to exist, I don't think that the service would, obviously we'd have to get more creative and we would have to empower people in new ways, but I don't see them as necessarily being the end of both, if that makes sense.

Seth Price 48:03

Yeah, it does. So then that would be a what's the thing I'm what's the word I'm looking for? That would be an entire shift of the way that we view quote unquote Big C Church. And so then the last question I like to ask you is, what is the church like Big C little c I don't really care, like, yeah, in that stretch, like, what is the church? Is it just me and you right now because we are two gathered? Is it something entirely different like what is it?

Rafael 48:30

Yeah.

Well, I like to have a view of the church kind of similar to the view of Christ where there's this cosmic view of it. Where the church is everyone who's been awakened to the reality of Christ, I would like to say. And then there's kind of a local expression which I mean, I don't know if this is treading into heresy but you know, if you look at Jesus I don't have

Seth Price 48:53

I don't have that button like you.

Rafael 48:57

(Laughs) But you know, Christ is this cosmic, especially in Colossians. I mean, Paul gives this like mind blowing, huge universal view of Christ. But then you also have the expression of Christ Jesus, who was the Christ, on earth at a particular location in time. And so I think church is kind of the same way where there's this, this cosmic, ethereal, corporate collective of people who are interconnected on this like spiritual network, but at the same time, there's a local embodiment and expression of it. And I think anytime where you have people gathered, who are awakened to their true identity, and to the fact that there's a kingdom at hand and there is king that we serve. I think church is is what's happening in that moment. I don't think it has to be a 501c(3). I don't think there has to be a sermon and communion for it to be official.

You know, I think if there is an intentional gathering of people who are about Kingdom business, however you define that. For me, I think that is a view of a local expression of church.

Seth Price 50:05

Yeah. The only question then there is, what role does pastor serving in that? Yeah, but I promise you an hour and we're coming up on our hour?

Rafael 50:15

Well, I'll give a quick answer. So yeah, I do believe pastors are vital. I will say that, I think our what we've done with the text is we've read our modern definitions back into the original language. So for instance, we see elders as a role as a title when in reality, the text uses elder in the same way it would just be like an older person.

So if you think of like a family structure, you know, there's an uncle, or father, someone who's been around the block so to speak, it's not an official title that you get voted into or something like that. Same with Pastor. Pastor is more of a function. So a person who pastor is a person who shepherds who guides who leads, not necessarily, you know, a job description you can find on monster.com. So that's a real quick overview. But again, if you dig into Frank's book, it'll explain it.

Seth Price 51:09

Yeah, I will. I'm gonna buy that, I like that concept. But we don't have enough time to go there. So, yeah, plug what you need to Raf. So how do people get ahold of you? Definitely how do they get ahold of the book? Some of the best books I read last year we’re Quoir books.

Rafael 51:25

Thank you.

Seth Price 51:27

Yeah, well, they're, what's the word I'm looking for…you can tell that they're not muzzled, if that makes sense. Like, the authors can say what they intended to say. And there wasn't an editor that went back and said, Yeah, no, we can't do that. Because I need this in the end cap at Target so you can't say that because it's just not gonna happen. So where do people go to either get in contact with you or possibly to submit a text if they want to, or, you know, where do they go?

Rafael 51:57

Perfect, real quick before I answer that. I love the fact that you picked up on that—that they're unmuzzled. I like how you said that. And just so everyone knows, just because we publish a book doesn't mean we agree 100% with it. So we like to be of the same mindset that it's like, well, this is a conversation worth having even if we're not fully behind it. We think it deserves to be in the marketplace. So yeah, so Quoir.com is the best place to check us out. And it is spelled weird, quoir.com. And that's where you can find out about heretic happy hour podcast, the bookish podcast, and all the books that we're coming out with. Sign up on our mailing list so we can send you updates on what's coming out. But that would be the best way. We also have a Facebook page. I think we're on Twitter and Instagram, but really the website is the way to go.

Seth Price 52:44

Well, I'll have links to all those in the show notes for those listening and thanks again for coming on. Raf Appreciate it.

Rafael 52:48

Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Seth Price 53:39

I'm truly thankful that people like Rafael exist, that they're pushing the envelope in a way that is nuanced (and) in a way that as I guess he liked the phrase as a way that unmuzzles people; that gives people an avenue and events to say what they need to say in an open forum and to disagree and to disagree with love. To not argue to not bicker to lead a life but lead life like he and his wife talked about just loving our neighbor loving our friends being like Jesus. That's beautiful. I wish hope that's something that we can all do.

If you like what you're hearing on any of these episodes, gosh, it's not for over a year. And I love doing it. And one of the ways that I'm able to do that is the continued support on Patreon, in whatever way that you're able for as long as you're able, I would love to count you among those there that helped to make this show what it is that really helps support financially, all of the back end framework of doing something like this because it does have costs and you'll find a link to that just CanISayThisAtChurch.com, up in the top right, you'll see a button that says I think support the show. So just click on that you have a couple options. There's a PayPal option there that nobody's ever used. And so I think eventually I'll just delete that. I'm not a fan of To PayPal but I know some people like a way to do it in a non ongoing way. Another way that you can support the show please rate and review it on iTunes. Really I like when you write those reviews because I like reading them. I like sharing them with friends and be like, hey, look at what this person said whether or not the rating or review is good or bad. I just really appreciate honesty and intentionality. I find it refreshing so do that.

I'm so thankful for the music of Hannah Barnet. Her music popped up randomly on a Spotify like we found somebody you might like playlist and they were right at song nails stopped me in my tracks. I don't remember what I was doing. But I remember stopping and just sitting there. And then I sent it to a few friends and was like man, this is really good. And it was my honor to feature her on today's episode. support her music and you'll find links to the music used in today's episode on the Spotify playlist that you'll find in the show notes. If you just click down at the bottom there or you'll find a link to that at the website at Can I Say This At Church calm thankful for you all I will talk with you next week. Be blessed