Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

James Prescott 0:00

We have to acknowledge that grief is the biggest problem that we have right now; unresolved grief, (the) inability to grieve well, is a huge problem, not just for individuals, but as a culture. And I’m absolutely convinced that one of the reasons that we are in the mess we are politically in the UK and in America—is that we did not grieve culturally. Where we've been able to let go of the past and people have mythological stories past like, Make America Great Again, whether there was this some mystical period in the past where wherever it was all great, and everything was happy, and everything was good, you know?

Because people haven't grieved the fact that we live in a different world now, that times have changed and circumstances have changed, and they really haven't grieved things in their own life that have gone on people compiled and manipulate that.

Seth Price Intro 1:06

Hello there friends. How are you doing? Welcome to episode. I don't know what episode This is 120 something? I don't know. Yeah, I can't keep up anymore. That was everybody. How has your March treated you? It's been a crazy March has it not on all of the levels. It's um, it's a bit overwhelming, isn't it? So today I spoke with James Prescott. Now he has a podcast that I don't really talk much about but it's beautiful. It's called the Poema podcast and you'll see that link in the show notes. But if you like kind of what he's saying here and the tempo and, and the intentionality with James's words I would really recommend after the show, click down there, definitely listen to what he's doing. It's really good.

So here's what you can expect. So we talk a bit about trauma and the church, we get into politics. But more importantly, we get into an understanding that your view and my view have equal weight. And we have to learn how to listen to each other, and respect one another and find safe places and learn how to create and help foster those safe places. And so I really hope that you enjoy this conversation I had with James on a bright and early, like 5:30 in the morning, because of the time difference on a Saturday. So here we go with James Prescott.

Seth Price 2:50

James Prescott, thanks for it's like six in the morning in the States and that way we can do this. So James, I appreciate you coming on and meeting me early and early in my morning in the middle of the day for you, but, but Happy Saturday to you and I appreciate you being here.

James Prescott 3:07

Yeah, it's great to be here. Thank you for inviting me. It's a real privilege to be on. Be on the show.

Seth Price 3:13

Well, I don't know if it's a privilege, but I appreciate you coming. (laughter both)

James Prescott 3:18

It is this is a great podcast.

Seth Price 3:20

There is going to be some more of my favorite questions that I asked a while back. I feel like it's been November so we've been working on this for like three four months because everybody's busy and we keep having to reschedule and whatnot but a while back, you had said you know, hey, I'd like to talk to some people about some things going on in my life and, and just some of my experiences and what I've learned, anybody interested?

I can't remember if I volunteered myself or someone else said you should talk with me. I feel like it was that someone else volunteered, but it doesn't really matter. I'm glad that we finally made it happen. I want you if you could for those listening to kind of go “You know, hey, you may or may not know me, but here's who I am. And here's what I want you to know about me”, and then we can kind of dive into some of the topics of the day.

James Prescott 4:08

Okay, well, I'm James…James Prescott. I do a lot of writing. And I host a podcast called the Poema podcast, which is poem with an A, on the end. We're doing that for about five years. Which is scary to think of actually, up to nearly 200 episodes now. I live in London over here in the United Kingdom, which is why I have a British accent. (laughter from Seth)

Yeah, and yeah, we talk about on that podcast we talk about a lot of the things we're into it today we talk about, talk about the spiritual journey. We talk about creativity, we talk about trauma and grief and mental health and all that kind of thing. We'll talk about lots of different things. I have a lot of guests on where we then listen to their stories and we talk about their stories. And yeah, so I guess that's a little bit about me.

I love movies. I you know, I'm a bit of a movie buff. I also like love reading. And yeah, I mean, that's kind of me in a nutshell. But my story is obviously a bit. A bit more…a bit longer. I, in terms of I think we talked about talking about trauma and grief and things and when I was growing up, I had a major childhood trauma because my, my mother had a massive attack when I was eight years old. Which the doctors thought she would not live and that, you know that she was going to die. She was in a coma. She was on a ventilator. They didn't think she would recover. She did. She did, she came out of the coma. But there was a cost to that which was an easy for short term memory. And that really affected everything in terms of my dad's relationship with her, you know, the potential for what the life we could have had, the life that she could have had. There was an element of grieving there of that in terms of what could have been and what wasn't.

And you know, something did die that day, although my mother didn't die. And that was really the beginning of the childhood trauma really, because that had consequences. Because my mother, who had been who was a very independent woman that wanted to work, wanted to have her own life (but) could no longer work, even though she was still able to live a day to day life. She couldn't work because her short term memory didn't work properly. And that that was very depressing for her because that was part of who she was. And she tried to very difficult to come to terms with that as anybody would and ended up becoming an alcoholic. And that affected my parents marriage.

I was getting bullied at school as a teenager, but nothing ever got done. I would come home from school, my parents would be fighting, I'd be breaking up their fights. So my kind of needs got neglected as a child. Even though I know my parents loved me, and I knew that they cared about me, and I knew that they were not bad parents and they hadn’t set out to be bad parents. They were just human beings who were imperfect, and they've gone through a major trauma, all of them. So you know, when mother had lost her part of who she was, my dad had to grieve the loss of the woman that he married in a sense part of the woman that he married and also had to carry the whole family emotionally and financially as well with two little children.

So there was a big toll on both of them. And that was really another consequence was was my teenage years where I got deflected and where I was kind of breaking up fights and where I was fighting a lot for about five years. All this time I was in the church. I was in a Methodist Church, just my only outlet really was prayer. And even then, I didn't really ask for anything. I just told God what was happening, because I had needed somebody to talk to. So yeah, that was kind of my art when I was 18. And I went to university and things were a lot better. But a couple years after I finished university, my mother passed away she had another asthma attack. And by this time she had gotten into recovery in, the parents had split up, and they were getting a lot better. And things were a lot more positive and a lot more healthy. So everyone was in a really good place. But obviously then she passed away.

So that's a whole big thing as well, because I was 23 years old when Mother mother passed away, which is not normal for 23 years old to bury a parent. So yeah, obviously, I went through a lot of grief, and had a lot of anger for a long time. And eventually I did get counseling for that. But the biggest, one of the one of the biggest, impacts of grief for me was was was that the god I've been brought up with was not no longer big enough for me. It was no longer big enough for what he had been through. And I had a lot of questions and a lot of doubts and a lot of things I really don't said. And that kind of led me too, out of out of kind of a more conservative church to kind of more liberal progressive Christianity, I guess.

And I started to discover liturgies and meditations and things like Lectio Divina all those kinds of things, which were really, really beneficial for me. But I think what ultimately happened is I found another form of certainty. Because certainty is kind of the structure that we build around our pain. It what we do to numb the pain instead of dealing with it. And we always talk about addictions like you know that, you know, alcohol, or drugs or you know, overeating and all those kinds of things that we do too numb the pain. But our religious certainties was another another way is another addiction essentially, is what we use to numb the pain. And although I was in a much more progressive, kind of Christianity…I am much more open and much more, you know, liberal. underneath the surface, it was another form of certainty. Because I knew I knew inside of me there was still stuff I hadn't resolved. I just knew, intuitively that there was something I hadn't dealt with that it was still there. Even though my life actually had got pretty good by then it was I was, you know, I was working and I had a home and I had a, I was part of a church and I was part of a Home Group and everything seemed pretty steady.

But I knew there was something that was not still not right. And I had a lot of anger. I used to shout at God quite a lot. I used to tell him that I hated him. I was like, why does this happen? Why did this happen? This isn't right. How could you just sit there and watch all this happen to me and do all this damage to me? I would get triggered sometimes and then I would lash out at God and tell him, I hate him. And yeah, all he did was sit and enjoy my suffering. And that's all I cared about. And I think I really felt that under the surface, because I wasn't given any space to deal with this stuff. I was just burying it around under the structure of the life that I’d built and the steady job that this sort of certainty of fundamentalist Christianity.

Seth Price 12:40

Let me ask you a question on that? So you talked about the God that you know, you you came up with, that you grew up with in the Methodist Church? So one of the things that I always been wondering about is, does the way that we do and you talked about fundamentalism here in the States, does that look the same in you know, in London, or in the the UK and then as well, you talked about, you know, pivoting to like a liberal, liberal progressive type of faith, does that also look the same as what we do here in the States? Because I think ours is so commingled with our politics. And you know what I mean, like, so do those look the same or what are some of the differences you think?

James Prescott 13:17

It's certainly not mingled with politics in the same way. There's a big distinction between church and state. There's quite a secular culture over here, more than America, I think. Issues like abortion and that which which are huge issues in America, politically and also tied into faith, you know, because what conservative faith is they are they also have issues here. That's why we don't ask politicians what they think about abortion generally. That rarely comes up if ever you know, I couldn't tell you what, what different political leaders will believe about abortion because nobody asked them because people don't on that concern. It's a more secular culture here than it is in America. But there are elements of conservative Christianity here. There's elements of progressive Christianity here, which is similar in terms of theology, I suppose.

I haven't experienced the most extremes of conservative Christianity that I see in America. But that doesn't mean they don't exist. It's complicated really. I mean, what I see here is that there is this there's still this fundamentalist kind of way of believing whether you're conservative or progressive is this it doesn't seem to matter. There's still this kind of, this is America as well, like, like what I've learned on my journey, is that you that it is as important if not more important, how you hold your beliefs, how you believe, than what you believe.

And what I mean by that is that you can, you can be a conservative but if you're willing to listen to other people's stories, if you are willing to admit that you're wrong, if you're willing to learn if you're willing to change, if you're willing to understand and hold disagreements with other people in tension, then that's a much healthier place to be and somebody who is maybe progressive in their theology, but will not listen to anybody else's story. Will not listen to anybody else's opinion. Will make blanket statements about them, maybe judge them, maybe condemn them and not like not not listen, because that person is never going to grow. They're going to stay where they are. The person who holds their beliefs tightly.

So it's really dangerous because I've seen it, I see it on Social Media there's, there are a lot of progressive fundamentalists and there are conservative fundamentalists. And there are also progressives and conservatives who are not fundamentalists at all and are willing to listen, and willing to have conversations, and willing to learn from each other, willing to hold their disagreements, intention. And people that are much healthier and they grow much more, I think they can have a deeper spirituality, and they understand that it's not all kind of what Richard Rohr calls like, “dualistic thinking”, my you know, dualistic thinking is like “in-out, either-or”. Whereas what he talks about is the healthiest way to live is “both-and”, you know, when you're willing to listen to each other when you're willing to hear each other's stories when you're willing to learn from each other or when you're when when it's not in our either but where everything belongs. And, you know, that's where I've kind of shifted to as a result of like, coming out of this, this this period that I was in because I had all this pain that I knew was there and when I finally chose to confront it.

Seth Price 17:10

And then confronting it, you so you talked about, we talked about God feeling too small, is that because of the way that the I guess the Methodist Church that you were at, like, there was just no space for you to have those feelings or emotions towards God or towards your mom or towards yourself or, or what was that?

James Prescott 17:29

I felt like well, the culture that I was brought with I my perception of it anyway. whether this was actually actually what they were saying to me, I don't know. But the the perception I got was that God was distant. You don't question God, you go by Jesus to God. You believe the right things and do the right things or you're going to hell, although that's never that was never overtly said. But it was implied and that he's in control of everything.

And then I went to university and I had a, although it was a Methodist Church, it was a much more evangelical kind of church, it was around the time of Toronto Blessing in the 90s. So there was a lot of that happening, a lot of falling over and, you know, people speaking in tongues and being in the Spirit, and you know, waving hands everywhere, was kind of just happening. And I was a student at the time. So I got caught up in that a little bit. And that was, again, a God of like, yeah, although I think I was closer to God then, that God was closer to me and wasn't so distant. But nevertheless, when my mother died, it was like, Well, I got questions for you and I don't understand what's going on. And this isn't what I've been brought up with and what I've experienced so far isn't enough. It doesn't deliver all that waving his hands in the air thing and speaking into and stuff, that's all great, but it doesn't, it doesn't deal with my pain. It doesn't reconcile with what I've been through.

That's all very well and good, but it does, but it's not. But you don't get my subservient, undivided worship just for being God anymore. You know there's I, you know I have questions for you and I want to engage in those questions. And for five years after my mother died I didn't really do that I buried it all per thought I can't do this. I can't have these questions. I can't say Oh, I can't think what I'm thinking I can't express this publicly because people will start saying they have concerns and they'll start to have questions about my faith and work on it. And you know, and then I read Velvet Elvis.

Seth Price 19:47

Rob Bell does it again.

James Prescott 19:49

And it changed my life literally. I was like, Oh, I can have all these questions and still have a relationship with God. I still know Jesus. It's okay. It was like water in the desert at last! It was like solidarity. And that's what I found that new church, which helped me with all of these things. I was engaging with all of these things at the time. And with that space I needed that church kind of evolved five or six years later, it was the same leadership but it was almost a different church completely. It kind of for me, it started to become more of an evangelical church more kind of more certainty, a bit more fundamentalist.

There were issues with LGBTQ stuff because I thought they were an inclusive church, and they appear to be for a long time, and they said that they were and then in LGBTQ couple in our church, we're not allowed to lead a home group. And I was like Okay, I can't…I can't accept this. You know, that's when I really started to think, well, maybe I need to maybe I need to leave. Yeah, you know, I know exactly three, four years before I did leave, but that's when that seed was planted.

You know, it was, it was like, oh, maybe I'm not going to be here as long as I thought I was going to be here. You know, I stayed to start with because I thought, well, I've got to try and hold our disagreements in tension. I've got to be the bigger person here. I've got to not try and create more division. Like because that’s where I was then. But then over time, it was like, well, I've got loads of LGBTQ friends and if I'm staying here, I'm condoning this behavior. And I’m agreeing with it and I'm saying it's okay. And I don't think it's okay. And you know, the LGBTQ who should be leading they should be involves anybody else in leadership of the church. There's no reason not to. And so, yeah, that was one of the that was another big driving reason for me to leave.

The other reason was just that I kind of started to feel trapped. And it was like wearing a straight jacket. And the only time I realized this was physically was when I went to my new community for the first time. And I was in between, I was doing, I was doing two at the same time because I was trying different things out. And I went to this new community, which is now my spiritual community. And I have physical physically felt myself breathe out in church for the first time, for years.

Seth Price 22:43

I mean, just like exhale, like, just sigh of relief, like, okay.

James Prescott 22:47

Yeah. And it was involuntary. Just like I felt it like oh, I haven't felt like this in church, right? I can just be me. I can just be where I am. And it's okay. All right back to the other church to next week and I physically felt bound up almost in a straitjacket couldn't say what couldn't say what I thought and couldn't sit in the couldn't even go into the service to be honest. The last year I was there, I couldn't even go into a service. I couldn't listen to the sermons. I couldn't…I couldn't sing the songs. It was too painful.

And I couldn't say what I really felt. I couldn't be me there and I found this new place which was a contemplative community, which allow for different theologies, different perspectives, different stories, and didn't prescribe anything-it was very bottom up and had about 20 people. Very small, low bands, very inclusive theology, very just generally inclusive. And where I did a lot of contemplation, a lot of silence, a lot of meditation a lot of today, but still had kind of the Eucharist, which I loved as well. And it was like, “Oh, this is home.” You know? And so I've been there ever since.

Seth Price 24:38

If you're comfortable so the people that listen to this show like the UK is, I don't know, third or fourth biggest people that listen to the show of, you know, of 10s of thousands of people a month. Do you mind saying what that…what that church community is in case there's someone listening, it's like, you know, I actually do live close by the area, and I haven't found a place that I feel comfortable then that will listen to me and just let me Let me be and let me sit in the presence. What is that if you're comfortable with it?

James Prescott 25:04

If no, no, I think it's fine. It's called Moot. And it's based in central London every Sunday evening, about 6:30. And it's, it's just a really small community. And it's, yeah, very contemplator, very inclusive. We have one, bring some food and we have a reflection and then we discuss it. You know, and it's like, there's no wrong answers. You can all, we all have our own different perspectives and stories, and that's fine no judgement whatsoever, and it's just a really safe space and really supportive, whatever you're going through. It's just a really lovely community, you know, really supportive and, yeah, I'd recommend it.

There are these kinds of spaces if you look for them. I don't want it to become too big. Because I love it.

Seth Price 26:03

Never-mind I'll edit it out. I'll edit it.

James Prescott 26:07

It is very interesting I mean we meet in an Anglican church building but we're not an officially we're an Anglican community but we're not really in our spiritual journey you know? So it's just beautiful You know, I really do. It doesn't make I don't have to be like a “Christian” to go there and then there's no kind of label I don't like to use the label Christian really anymore; I said this to someone the other day “I have a Jesus centered spirituality”. You know it encompasses a lot of different things. And it's weird because my relationship with Jesus now if it's better than than my relationship with God still, then I go to my trauma and I'm coming back from out of my trauma.

One of the things that happened during that process because I started seeing a spiritual director and a mindset coach and things which all really helped. And my director was also trained as a therapist. So that was really, really helpful. But we talked about Judas. And when he betrays Jesus, I forget which gospel it's in. But Jesus says to Judas,

friend do what you came here to do.

He doesn't call him enemy. He doesn't call him traitor. He doesn't call him Satan, or whatever. He just calls him friends. Like he forgives him. He loves him, even though knowing what he's going to do. And I thought about all those times I shouted at God and said I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. I meant it.

And when somebody read that passage to me, and in that, in that context, I was like, oh like that. All those times I was shouting at God. Jesus was there. Like saying, James, just do what you came here to do? Like, if you need to shout at me if you need to say you hate me, just do it. I'm still gonna be here. I still love you. I'm still a friend. I forgive you. It's okay. It's all okay. And that was a really powerful moment for me. But I could just let it go and it was okay.

Seth Price 28:32

So if you were to sit down and you got like, say the leaders of you know, 10-15 different congregations of church across London, you know, and they're all like James, we realize as a church body worldwide, that grief, doubts, and trauma are literally destroying the church. I actually said something on Twitter the other day on Facebook about certainty as well. So you know, certainty is going to destroy the church if, if we let it which ended up getting fairly a lot of traction. Most of it was people being passive aggressive, like, Are you certain about this? And I'm like, I think you're missing the point. But no I'm not certain about this, you jerk. Don't take my words and twist them, but whatever.

And if you had them all with you, and you're like, you know, we need to talk about grief, and trauma, and anger. Here's what needs to change, not necessarily in the church that you're at now. But realistically, here's what we all need from you. Because I don't really struggle with grief and doubt. And I'm blessed enough that so far, I haven't had to deal with a lot of death and a lot of that as a person, you know, or a lot of things that cause that kind of trauma or doubt or grief.

I mean I've had my own issues, but it's not, it's not that. So what would you say to congregational leadership of all different walks, that are in front of you, and you're like, here's what we need to do; we just need to name this problem and here's four or five things that we should try—regardless of whether or not you're Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, fill in whatever denomination you want to.

James Prescott 30:08

Wow.

I think the first thing that we need to learn to listen to each other. Like we need to actually just say like, everyone's stories matter. I want to hear your story. I want to listen to your story. So that we're not always fighting with each other. You know that's, we can just say, okay, we can believe different things, but we can still get on and we can still have relationship and we can still love other people. And we can still engage in community, even if we disagree on things. I think that's really important.

I honestly think as well in terms of grief. We have to acknowledge that grief is the biggest problem that we have right now. Unresolved grief, the inability to grieve well, is a huge problem not just for individuals but as a culture. I'm absolutely convinced that one of the reasons that we are in the mess we are, politically in the UK and in America, is that we did not grieve culturally very well. We've been able to let go of the past and people have mythologica-lized the past like, Make America Great Again, where there was some mythical period in the past where wherever it was all great, and everything was happy, and everything was everyone was rich. Everyone was good, you know. And, you know, because people haven't grieved the fact that we live in a different world now, that times have changed and circumstances have changed. And maybe they haven't grieved things in their own life that have gone. People can play on that and manipulate that. And church leaders can do that as well.

I mean, that's another thing as well, we have to learn how to grieve well. We have to acknowledge that we all carry grief around with us. Like whether it's, whether it's a loss of a relationship or you lose a job, or a pet dies, or, you know, it can be anything like something that's coming to an end, a season of our life that's coming to an end, maybe our children are going to school for the first time; and we have to leave them at school. And we've had them with us for a few years and we don't want to do that. And it's painful to just let them go. But you know, we have to do it ffor their own good and their own growth. That's a grieving.

You know, we have to learn how to sit in our grief and that's what I would say to churches don't build structures around people's pain. actually engage with it and create support networks. Church should be a support network for people who are trying to deal with their pain not a structure which allows them to avoid it.

You know, I've heard this many times that Alcoholics Anonymous is what church should be because you go there, and you tell your story, and tell the truth, and you don't hold anything back. And there's no BS, one of the signs on the door is no BS, and you're just accepted and loved and welcomed as you are. And you're allowed to process your pain, you're allowed to process whatever you're carrying, and be accepted anyway.

And that's what church should be. It should be a safe space where you can just be you without any judgment or fear or condemnation, or anyone prescribing anything to you or people saying that, oh, God can fix everything or you believe the right things are going to be okay. That's just another way of building a structure around pain so that we don't have to deal with it. And what I would say to check Jesus did not do this thing that you're doing. Jesus actually felt his pain. He allowed himself to get tortured and beaten up and humiliated and go to this physical and emotional trauma. And when he was offered vinegar to numb the pain he refused it, he knew that it was important to feel the pain, because that's the only way that you can defeat it.

Like, what we need to do is to build structures into our pain that allow us to go into our pain and come out of it without it having the power to control us. Because there's no happy ever after. Like, we need to let go of this idea of a happily ever after. And I said this on Twitter before as well. But like as Christian, it's almost like oh, believe the right things, do the right things and then you can be free of all these all this stuff, and go and live your life. And it'll all be okay. Then once you've dealt with it, it doesn't work like that. That's not what life is about.

I discovered on my journey as I've dealt with my grief and my trauma is that there are layers to it. Like I've dealt with the principal raw pain of my grief and trauma. And I've left that behind, and I've now got free of it, and I’m now able to go in and out of it without it controlling me. But as you grow and as you go through the different layers of consciousness, you discover new layers to this to these to these rooms, like discovering things about what grief and trauma did to me that I wouldn't have done if I hadn't been willing to go there in the first place and get healing for the original wound. Because it goes so deep.

And I realized that I've got abandonment issues, I've got trust issues. I've got issues with trusting God, like and it's all because of this grief and trauma. But I wouldn't have realized that if I hadn't done the work in the first place. So we have to be aware that this is a process and it's not about a destination. It's about the journey like and you know, there are ups and down, there'll be moments of joy, there will be moments of happiness. There'll be seasons where things are good. But there will also be seasons where it's not good and where it's painful, where it's difficult. And we all know that life is like that anyway, you know, there's always ups and downs in life. We will all lose somebody, we will all have a relationship that ends or we will lose, we lose a parent or we will all have to grieve in some way we will all go through pain is part of being human.

And that's what I love about Jesus is because he modeled this. Somebody said this to me, and it really helped me connect with Jesus, is that Jesus was an outcast as a child, even his own family, part of his own family. And he couldn't marry because of that, when all the people that his own age were doing that. And then he lost a parent. And then he went through betrayal and extreme emotional, physical trauma. You know, I heard that I was like I've had almost all of that happened to me. That's exactly my story. When I realized that I connected with Jesus in a way that I never connected with him before I discovered a deeper intimacy with him.

And also he became more divine to me, in his humanity. You know, the more I see Jesus full humanity, the more I see his divinity, in a way. I don't see…the miracles and all of those kind of things. That's not where I see the divine in Jesus is in his, in his raw humanity or in his solidarity. And that example and the example that he gives us of like, Don't avoid the pain, don't build, don't build things around the pain, don't hide from it, confront it, because then you can be free. You know, and that's, that's kind of what I would say. I guess it's not, I don't know where you get a five step plans or anything like that.

Seth Price 37:59

Well, let me ask You know, the question with the churches that you've been engaged with and you talk with is as many people as I do, you know, doing a podcast yourself. Do you really feel like…I agree with you, I think that we need to find space to listen to each other. I think I was on a podcast one time and that's literally what I said. If I could snap my fingers like God, you know, Thanos kind of button. They would, that's what I said is like, I wish we could just hear each other, like just actually hear what each other's not what we said, but what we meant, like just hear each other.

And so I totally agree with that. But I find myself wondering, while you were speaking, if every church that could do that actually literally did that, do you feel like the leadership staff in each church? Like I don't think pastors are trained to actually deal with trauma. I think pastors trained to sell the church. I don't think they're trained to sit with people, if that makes sense. So I wonder what kind of damage it would do if we actually did what we're supposed to do damage in a good in a bad way? I don't know.

James Prescott 39:03

Yeah, but this is where church leaders need to actually own that and say, Look, I'm not a professional. I'm not a mental health professional. Your churches need to be supporting people to get the professional help that they need. To me, the role of spiritual community is to be a support network, like a structure like a healthy structure, which allows you to, again, to go into that place and come out of it and not be alone. And it not control you. And the church is not mental health professionals. You know, I'm very passionate about getting access to mental health professionals for everybody rather than based on ability to pay. I think that is wrong, it shouldn't be just the rich that are able to go and get a therapist. In fact, it should be everyone should be able to have access to a therapist and counseling and all those kinds of things. And then what the charity to do is to build relationships with those people so that you can actually say, Okay, we have a few people, you know a few people who we could refer you to who are professionals, and we will provide support when you're seeing them.

Like we will be here for you, we will, we will pray for you we will be we will be accountable. You can talk to us about what's going on, we can love you, we can be there for you, as you go as you walk through this. That is what spiritual communities should do. Because the church should not try and be a mental health professional.

I actually talked to somebody on my podcast, who is actually providing a kind of a network of mental health professionals to support churches because they see this need and it's, it's unfair on pastors as well to ask them to be a mental health professional. It's not their job.

You know, pastors have a role, but it's not to do that, you know, unless they actually trained as a mental health professional themselves, which is pretty rare. And also, it's too much for one person to take on for a whole community as well, you know. And prayer groups and all that kind of thing, one to one prayer, that can be really helpful as well. But you do need professionals as well. You can't deal with mental health, just by praying for somebody. You know, I don't, I don't, I don't agree with that. You need professionals who know, they're talking about who can get to the root of this stuff, without the kind of all the boundaries of religion and church. So you can go anywhere where people are free to talk about whatever they want and deal these problems. (cough) sorry, I’ve got a cough.

Seth Price 42:04

You almost you almost made it (through the full episode)

James Prescott 42:07

It's winter in the UK, so I’ve got a typical kind of man flu cough.

Seth Price 42:07

It's winter here as well, but it's been so mild. I actually bought a snowblower a few years ago, and I've yet to be able to use it. It still has the bindings on it. I just cranked it up every month or so just to keep the engine working.

James Prescott 42:26

Yeah, we haven't had a thick snow for a long time. So yeah, yeah, but, but, yeah, so yeah, I think churches need to start doing that. Yeah, you know, and I don't feel like I belong into what is called church anymore the establishment of the institution of church, but I know plenty of people who benefit from it. And there are good churches out there as well who aren’t kind of doing this fundamentalist in our kind of way of believing. We just have to look for them. But churches need to let go of this, “My way is the only way”. My belief system is the only belief system. My theology is the only theology and concurrently kind of silencing or dismissing or ignoring anyone who disagrees with them. You know?

We see this play out politically as well, especially in America because what happened is Barack Obama won. So aggressive fundamentalists Oh, we've won. We've won the argument. Therefore, all conservatives have to shut up and listen to us now. We're in charge we won so we won the cultural war. So just listen to us. We will we have all the answers. And this alienated a lot of people who felt that their voices weren't being heard just because they disagreed a little bit with the progressive movement. And they weren't bad people. They just disagree.

So, Trump comes along, and he speaks to these people and says, I'm listening to you. I'm paying attention to you. I will meet your needs, this is what I'm going to do. And even though they didn't like him, some of them voted for him anyway because at least he was listening to them. And this is what happens when you get into kind of a dualistic in-out kind of way of believing. You end up alienating good people.

Because there are good people who believe things different to you, you know, when Donald Trump got elected, I made a point of asking my friends who had voted for him why they voted for him, because I wanted to understand and when I heard their, their, their stories, it was like, Oh, right. That makes sense. I don't agree with what you did. I don't agree with your views, but I get why you voted for him because you were concerned about your job. You're concerned about your health care, you're concerned about your children, you're concerned about getting food on the table, and those are legitimate concerns and people feel like somebody is paying more attention to them, then they're going to vote for them and other people. Yeah, that's understandable.

They weren't racist or, like sexist or misogynist or whatever, just because they voted for Trump. They have their own stories and reasons. And the key to beating Trump is to actually start listening to those people and try and acknowledge what their concerns are and start saying, “okay, okay, I'm willing to listen now and hear you without compromising on your values or your politics”, you know, it's so that is that I mean, okay, that's a little bit of politics.

So I do talk about politics a little bit, but, but it but it applies, but it applies in terms of in the church as well, because we have to start listening to people who disagree with us, theologically. We have people from different backgrounds and different stories, we have to start listening to each other.

Listening to each other, it doesn't mean we agree, it doesn't mean we accept what they believe. It doesn't mean that we, yeah, it doesn't mean that we have to become the same as them. It just means that we're willing to listen, have a grown up conversation. And that's, that's helpful. You know, that maybe that we might, they might shift towards where we are a little bit more. Or maybe we could learn from them as well.

Seth Price 46:32

Yeah, maybe we both shift.

James Prescott 46:34

Yeah, yeah. Both shift, you know, and you become healthier that way, and it's less angry and less divisive and less childish.

Seth Price 46:46

Yeah. Last question, James. Last question. It's, it's become my question of the year and I'm loving it every single time. So you're actually so I'm gonna blame it on the earliness of the morning. I usually give people a warning at the beginning of the show. What I'm going to ask in this last question, I didn't do that to you so it's unfair to you, I apologize. So because it's I felt like it's a bigger question than the question is, um, so when you as James Prescott say, hey person across the table from me, hey person listening to the show, when I say the word God or when I think about the divine or when I, when I'm trying to explain what God is to me, what is that to you? How do you try to explain the divine? What words are you able to give to that I should have given you a warning. I'm sorry.

James Prescott 47:35

Wow…Yeah. The Divine to me is love. Inclusion all around us, wherever we look for him or her. And also, this isn't my word, but

Seth Price 48:00

No, it doesn't have to be one word. It's fine.

James Prescott 48:02

My relationship with God is an honest open one where it is not subservient. Where we wrestle with things, where I talk to him or her about everything, and I'm honest. And if I've got questions or angry or I don't understand something, I will just say that. And it's not with a bitterness or rage or anything like that. It's just honest wrestling, like I still love you. And I still acknowledge you exist, I still acknowledge you, will love and acknowledge that you are everywhere I look for you, I can find you. And somehow you are orchestrating some of this stuff that's going on in my life. But I still have questions and I still want to know some answers. And I still don't understand a few things. And I’m still angry with you sometimes.

And it's like a grown up relationship. You know, where it's not like, oh, you're your wife, everything. I'm just going to bow before you in just accept whatever you say. It's more, I acknowledge who you are, I love who you are or your best and I just but I have all these things I want to wrestle with and I want to work through with you. Like, it's like a real kind of grown up relationship. And that's where I can get on board with God. You know? That's, that's kind of where I go. Where I meet with God and it's a much healthier place for me, I think.

And because I can't do the kind of whole subservient, like God is above everything. But is it just not question here with I should not. And he's just he system has always always has all the answers and everything that I can't deal with that God at the moment anyway.

Seth Price 49:53

Thank you. Yeah, I should have I apologize. I should have warned you ahead.

James Prescott 49:59

It’s okay honestly, it was actually good to be out of the blue because I didn't have time to think about it. Just go with what it was.

Seth Price 50:06

Yeah, it's been it's been really fun to listen to people's answers. Where would you send people to James as they're listening to this? And they're like, Alright, so he's got a podcast called Poema. Where would you point people to if they wanted to, you know, hear more from you read more from you, you know, reach out to you whatever they want to do.

James Prescott 50:30

On social media, Twitter and Instagram, especially @JamesPrescott77. And I do interact with people or I do have conversations and I do say hi. So do come and say, hi.

I have a Facebook group for my podcast, which is called poema podcast continuing the conversation. And so in there, I post quotes from the podcast and you have discussions. We talked about what was happening in the podcast and trying to build a little community there of listeners and things. So by becoming the icon that's on Facebook and Poema podcast has a Facebook page and I have a web page as well JamesPrescottwriter. I have my website is JamesPrescott.co.UK. I'm also on medium and obviously this the podcast as well, which is the Poema podcast, which is anywhere you get podcasts. Just look for a podcast. It'll have my name on it.

So, yeah, I would really love to connect with you and hear from your listeners and stuff.

Seth Price 51:48

Well, thank you again for your Saturday morning. I've enjoyed the conversation and I genuinely think certainty, trauma, grief, doubt they're all so commingled. And I meant what I said a few days ago on the internet like, it's gone. It's kind of killed the church. If we can't get that above anything else, I think just turns people off. So thank you so much for coming on.

James Prescott 52:16

You are welcome, anytime.

Seth Price Outro 52:29

This show is completely supported 197% by the patrons. It is an honor and a privilege to not have to do any advertisements on the show. And so I would ask you to support the show rate and review, t's easy, it's simple and it's free.

But also click the button become a Patreon supporter of the show. There is a lot going on there and I am trying to add more things to there. But I look forward to meeting you, there, consider it.

Thank you for listening.

I hope that you are so very blessed and you know that your beloved. We will talk next week.