Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Suzanne 0:00

There are nine ways of seeing and nine ways of processing what we see. And most people think that we're all pretty much alike and we're actually not and it doesn't do any good to talk to people in a way that they can't hear you. And any kind of true resolution of conflict or disagreement is a result of shared understanding and affirmation not of someone winning and someone losing.

Seth Intro 0:35

Hey there welcome back! I'm Seth your host this is the Can I Say This At Church podcast. The show is over 30 episodes and I find that amazing. I never in my wildest dreams thought that that would happen. Honestly. I'm every week amazed at everyone that listens to this show. And everyone that is emailing and everyone that is talking about things online and Twitter and just the community that I have found in you and in people like you. It's so encouraging to know that we can all do faith and work through our faith together, that is not possible without the support of our Patreon supporters. It's not possible without iTunes reviews, that is not possible without shares on Facebook and Twitter. And you all have answered the call on that. And I would ask you to continue to do so. slowly, but surely, the Patreon support is coming and, and a few of you over the last few weeks have made that plunge even at $1 a month, I can't tell you how thankful I am for you. And if there's anything that I've learned this year, it is that I'm becoming better at learning how to give thanks and recognize when something is bigger than me. And so thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Today, let me start by saying this…and you can ask my close friends have always been slightly skeptical of things like Myers Briggs, and other personality tests. I kind of think that people are what they are and it's too hard to pigeonhole people in. And you'll hear me go through that with the guests. So I was able to speak with Suzanne Stabile. A little bit of Suzanne and then tell you a little bit of what to expect in the show. She is highly sought after speaker and teacher she she likes to laugh, see is extremely genuine. And you will hear that in her voice. There is a what's the word I'm looking for…there is a familial tone. When you're speaking with her, you can't help but want to talk more. I greatly enjoyed this and I'll tell you why. There's a portion in the show where I question whether or not I am what I am on the Enneagram and throughout talking it through, she's like, well, that's, you know, it sounds a lot like you.

And I'm still sitting with it. If I'm honest, I'm still wrestling with it. There's parts of it that I'm afraid to be anything, I think, to put a wall around what could be my personality in my mind is somehow limiting. But I can also see where it would be freeing because it allows me to build up vertically, which I think is what we all need to do, as opposed to continuing to build out horizontally.

So in today's episode, we talk about Suzanne's latest book prior to that, the she wrote a book The Road Back To You with Ian Cron. And this is sort of a follow up to that and a more deep dive into it. The title of her latest book is called The Path Between Us. And it is specifically about relationships. And I know when I read the cover, I thought that meant more like marriage. And it doesn't it is the relationships and learning how to be more graceful and learning to understand ourselves and all the relationships so the people that we see at the little league fields, the people that we work with the people that we get in line behind that the grocery store, everyone that we interact with, we're gonna have some fun of a relationship. And so this is talking about navigating the interactions that we have day to day. Because whether or not we like it, the people in our lives we all have a relationship with and the goal should not be to push people away. The goal should be to invite them in. And that is the community of our church. Let's get into it. Roll the tape.

Seth 4:46

Suzanne, thank you so much for joining the Can I Say This At Church podcast, I can't tell you how thankful I am and how appreciative I am of you making the time to come on and I know we've had some rescheduling and so thank you for your willingness to still being able to be here.

Suzanne 4:59

I'm so glad to be you know, I'm a pastor's wife. And the way I usually hear this phrase is, “she's saying you can't say that in church.”

Seth 5:08

Ha!

Suzanne 5:08

So I'm kind of good with the whole idea of Can I Say This At Church!

Seth 5:14

Well, good. Suzanne, I know you're in Dallas. I know, you know, the Enneagram quite well. I've enjoyed reading your books, but not everyone listening will have had that privilege, or will even know what the enneagram is. So I was hoping maybe you could tell us a bit about you and your upbringing, kind of what your path through faith and life has been that brought you to where you're at now in your career. And then and then maybe just a quick you know, from floor to floor one on the elevator if that's even possible. Just what we can expect to to learn from the diagram as we have this conversation over the next few minutes.

Suzanne 5:52

Okay, I'm 67. So I got a little bit of a long story. I'm an adopted child actually, my parents, my dad's a doc and my mom was a nurse. And my parents had two biological children who were boys 18 and 15. My dad delivered me and I was available for adoption. And literally in 48 hours, they decided to adopt me. So I've decided I must have been quite something as a newborn.

I grew up in a community in the panhandle of Texas, of 5000 people, and I remember being aware young that most kids look like their parents. My brothers looked like my parents and I didn't. So I started, I think, intuitively looking for belonging by watching how people behave. And I began to identify with people who behaved the way I do or who seemed to have a personality, similar to mine. My goal in life was to coach college basketball and came to SMU and as a freshman played women's basketball and then I was the first coach at SMU at time, and that actually required a lot of negotiating women's basketball and women's athletics and the 70s was new and cost money. And so I began to find my way in communicating with people in a way that they could hear.

And then I ended up teaching theology in a Catholic High School, even though I grew up United Methodist, and I kind of got absorbed into the Catholic Church for a time and found a spirituality and a religion that was different from mine, but that had a lot to offer me, I thought. I was Catholic for 10 years. The reason I'm left Catholic Church is because I married a former priest and I was a single mom with three children. Joe and I married and he adopted my three and we had a fourth and he's now been a United Methodist pastor for the last 29 years.

And so I've lived my whole life in the church, one of two, I'm thankful for both expressions of faith. And years and years ago, my husband Joe, who was Vincentian Father's, decided that he was going to call Father Richard Rohr and see if he would meet with us. And if you don't know Father Rohr his work, he's a Franciscan priest. He's two years older than Joe. So he's 74. And the Enneagram is part of his body of work. And after some reading and discussion, he encouraged me to learn and teach the enneagram. He taught me and he asked me to wait for a number of years before I started teaching because he was always concerned that the enneagram would become a parlor game. So I studied for five years and I've been teaching for 25.

Seth 9:00

I am familiar with Richard Rohr. I love his work. And he has similar to you so when I talk to you I'm also from West Texas myself. Where are you from? You said you're born in the panhandle. Where are you from? I'm from Midland, Odessa.

Suzanne 9:16

Well, I'm from Floydada.

Seth 9:18

That's just what's that right outside Lubbock, isn't it?

Suzanne 9:20

Yeah, southeast.

Seth 9:22

I know where that is. I like those little towns I say Midland Odessa, because the town I'm from is not big enough to be on the maps.

Suzanne 9:30

What is it?

Seth 9:32

So it's Greenwood, it's just west of Midland.

Suzanne 9:33

Yeah.

Seth 9:35

It's a small, small, small place. Well, it was when I left I don't think it is anymore. It was when I left but uh, I have a special affinity when I talk to Texans because I miss the accent. And so, so I like it. But now I am familiar with Father Rohr. I love his work. I've never read any of the stuff that he's done on the enneagram though, but I've heard him speak of it. It's always been something if I'm honest that I've never quite approached in a way that I felt like I could be genuine, because I didn't feel like I had the the right knowledge base. And I've always been afraid that I'll just, you know, take a test online, and I'm a nine because that's what the test says. And then I would pigeonhole myself with a lack of information. So there's always been that in the back of my head.

Suzanne 10:20

I have so much to say about that. But I'll try to be brief.

Seth 10:23

No, say it!

Suzanne 10:25

I don't like tests at all. We never use them. We did when I first started teaching and in our community and our institute for spiritual formation. The indicators of the test proved to be wrong a high percentage of the time after people had heard the enneagram talk orally. So I also said I would never write a book and I've co-authored one and written another so I gave up on that. But I feel so strongly about the test because your enneagram number is determined by your motivation for behavior and not by your behavior.

So there's two sides to everything and I'm so glad that the anagrams really popular right now. But at its best, the enneagram is deep spiritual wisdom that can help you be a better human being. And I sure don't want that to get lost in the frenzy of how fun it seems to be for some folks.

Seth 11:21

Well, I don't know that it's fun, like as I've read through a cursory review and to be clear, I did go to you co-wrote that book that you're talking about is oh, gosh,

Suzanne 11:32

The Road Back to You

Seth 11:34

Yeah, with Ian Cron. And I did take the test on his website many times, and I kept getting the same number. And I'm not sure that I agree with it. Just because I wanted to have some form of a knowledge base for today.

Suzanne 11:46

The test on his website was a disagreement between us. (it’s not available freely any longer)

Seth 11:50

I assume you didn't want there to be a test.

Suzanne 11:52

I didn't want to do that right. But, you know, it generates interest.

Seth 11:58

Yeah, absolutely. So what do you mean by a parlor trick? Do you mean just taken at face value and that people just say, Oh, well, I'm a three. So moving on now; and I'm also a Taurus, is that what you mean by that?

Suzanne 12:10

I do mean that. But I also find that people then start to assign numbers to other people. And I'm in deep and have been for 25 years and I don't assign numbers to people. Because you're too often wrong. There is no guarantee that, you know, the, the reasons behind the behavior of other people and I just don't want, you know, we're very reductive as a society. We want to get things fast and easy and we're accustomed to sound bites. And the thing that differentiates the enneagram from all the other systems that are like it, is that you can do something with this because it's non-static.

So once you know your number, which is determined part genetically and part environmentally, but it's well honed by the time you're five. If you know your number, then you have a chance of being a healthier, better human being, by doing the work that is available in enneagram wisdom.

Seth 13:16

To wrap that into your book. So you alluded to you didn't want to write books, and I appreciate you reneging on that promise to yourself and writing them because because I've enjoyed the path between us and I've not read your first one with Ian. If someone goes to books, a million in Barnes and Noble or Amazon? And for those listening, I recommend you do that. At the end of this listening it is. I liked the book, for many reasons, and we'll get into that later. What is for someone picking it up they like the green cover. They're like, what is this? What is your intention for them? They sit down they read it, and what do you want them to take away?

Suzanne 13:50

That there are nine ways of seeing and nine ways of processing what we see and that most people think that we're all pretty much alike. And we're actually not. And it doesn't do any good to talk to people in a way that they can't hear you. And any kind of true resolution of conflict or disagreement is a result of shared understanding and affirmation, not of someone winning and someone losing.

So one of the reasons that I wrote The Path Between Us is actually for my grandchildren. I have seven and I'll have eight in August. And I find the world to be more and more tribal, more and more angry, more and more judgmental. And I find that there's less grace and less mercy as we journey together. And the thing that I…I don't know what I love most about the enneagram, but one of the things that I most love is that it's accessible. For everybody who's a junior in high school or older.

Suzanne 15:53

So, you know I do a lot of work in big churches. I am called in to work with church staffs and I teach on college campuses and in hospitals. And big churches, if they bring somebody in to do a staff work day, they call ahead almost all of them and say, well, who should come? And my answer is everyone. Everybody on the staff should come. And not many people get to give that answer. So in hospital work, people who are presidents of hospitals and in leadership and hospitals are aggressive, and they have to be. And so what I used to do is make charts for the hospitals where I work for people to be able to work better with the people who report to them. And those charts are now part of The Path Between Us.

Seth 16:46

I have many questions one of them I want to dovetail off of what you said earlier. So you had said most of the time and kids that number is already there by five is that what you said, will be in that I have a nine year old, a five year old and one that in a few days will turn three. How do I figure try out what my kids numbers are. I'd like to talk about my wife, and especially because the path between us is all about relationships, but I can't think that you wrote the book specifically for those that are married because I have relationships with people that I work with, and that I go to church with and that I see it Food Lion. But how do I discern or figure out what my children are or is that even a question I should be asking?

Suzanne 17:23

That's not the question you should be asking. And I did write the book for people you work with people that are in your neighborhood, people in your extended family, the ones you like, and the ones that you don't like, and for couples and partners, etc. So the question to ask about the enneagram and parenting is, how can I be the healthiest person I can be so that I can model what my children can most benefit from? But once you become a student of the anagram, it's very difficult not to think “I think she might be an aggressive number”, she's just five, but she's pretty aggressive, which would mean that she's a three or a seven or an eight. And so I don't work with children. My daughter who's 14 and her husband have been doing enneagram work with me for 18 years and they are going to start doing some enneagram and parenting workshops. But they're going to focus mainly on how parents can be healthy, and what stance their children are in; which will either be withdrawing, aggressive, or dependent.

So that's a big discussion that we can't have right now in terms of stances but what I want to say is that when I do work with children, it's in the adoptive, post-adoption community, and I use animals instead of numbers.

Seth 18:50

What do you mean these animals?

Suzanne 18:51

Well, I lead parents and children into discovering which of nine animals they think they are based on the behaviors and a way of being in the world of those animals as opposed to assigning a number that seems to come with so much baggage that it's not very freeing and perhaps not helpful.

Seth 19:12

Sure. So like if I was an aggressive animal, I'd be like a tiger or a I don't know a shark or…?

Suzanne 19:20

Let me run through the numbers for you because people want to know. So 1’s are worker bees. And 2’s are kangaroos. And 3’s, which are an aggressive number are eagles, and 4s are butterflies, and 5’s are owls. And 6 is your bunny rabbits, and 7’s which are an aggressive number are monkeys, and 8’s, the third aggressive number are lions, and 9’s are turtles.

Seth 19:46

I do know reading the book and hearing those animals those makes sense. I like that. I like that a lot. I'm gonna have to chew on that. I wasn't prepared for the conversation to go that way. So yeah, that derailed my brain of it, that's fine. Um, so is there a better…in dealing with relationships I have to think that the answer is no, but I don't know why…are there better numbers that just do better in the type of relationships that our world currently requires?

Suzanne 20:17

You know, that's a really common question. And it's easier for me to say where I think there would be more struggles with certain numbers. But let me say this; in this movement constantly between being healthier, average or unhealthy in your number, and that's constant movement. So anybody who says to me, you know, I'm really healthy and my number just most of the time, then my response is very quick, and that is your unhealthy. If that's what you think you're you're kind of missing this because the movement is constant, and most of us operate out of high average behavior in our number.

So having said that, I want to add that to be the healthiest person you can be working with somebody else who's trying to be healthy, and a two numbers can work together well, and any two numbers can work out life together as a couple. I think the greatest gift the enneagram offers maybe is the understanding that we're just having different experiences all the time. We're having the same experience, but our response to it is different because of how we see the world. And the enneagram teaches us how we see the world.

And so what Joe and I learned to do, once we learned the enneagram, was to talk with one another about a big question for us still today is how do you see that? What do you see when you look at that? How do you hear that? Because it's different for each of us. And when we first started learning the enneagram, when I first started reading about it, Father Rohr challenged me to study for five years before I started teaching, and I did it. Mostly because he's father roar, and you kind of just trust whatever he says, and you just do it. I'm a real talker, it was hard for me.

But we raised our kids, we have four of them. And we raised them with working through conflict and family meetings. And anybody could call one. And I've been reading enneagram books and sharing information with Joe for about two years, and the children called a family meeting. And they sat on the sofa, in age order, and looked at me and said, “We don't know what you're reading, but we'd like for you to put it away”. And that's because their lives were changing dramatically based on what I was learning about how they see the world.

And it was kind of a joke, but not really a joke. It was like “you seem to know something that we don't know and it's kind of messing us up in terms of getting what we want and getting our way” and being treated differently when we need correction of some kind. Let me give you one more example.

Seth 23:03

Okay.

Suzanne 23:04

My husband is head of congregational care at a 17,000 member church. And he has a staff of people who, if you're in our church and you're in the hospital, you get visited every day. And in that reality, that staff knows enough about the enneagram from my teaching there three times, that they can walk into a hospital room and know that some people need to be touched. Some people need a lot of privacy. Some people need you to sit down and hear their story. Some people don't want you to stay long. And it's completely changed pastoral care for that group of people.

Seth 23:42

So how do they then turn around and do that when they leave their posts? So he's got the staff (that) works underneath him (and) they're really good at knowing this. How do they then teach that to the people that replaced them?

Suzanne 23:56

Well, we don't have that yet, because he's only been there eight months. So, you know, but I would say that there is a lot of available information. So if everybody in congregational care read The Path Between Us, then you know, there's a lot of guidelines in the path between us for how to treat people and how to recognize how people need to be treated.

Seth 24:18

Sure. So how do I know my numbers Suzanne? I sit down, I read the book. And I and I take your wisdom, and I don't take the test. How do I know which numbers and specifically, from what I briefly understand about triads? How do I know where I fit into this whole thing?

Suzanne 24:34

I tried really hard when I'm on other people's podcasts and even on my own, not to advertise my stuff.

Seth 24:43

Feel free because your podcast is amazing. So feel free.

Suzanne 24:46

Okay. Well, I think listening to the Enneagram Journey will help but here's what I want to say. We have just now released in individual numbers and in a package a Know Your number workshop that I recorded in Portland about 18 months ago. And on iTunes, you can buy the individual numbers. And if you don't know your number, then you can buy the zip file that has every number.

And once you hear it orally, with one exception, then pretty much you go, “oh my gosh, that's me. That's me.” And you know, it was an oral tradition until the 1970s. And it could be as old as 3000 years old. So people learned it early for a very long time. And I, in my experience, think it's easier to hear nuance than it is to read nuance. But The Road Back to You is a really good primer. It's real. I'm proud of it. And it's a really good primer for knowing your number.

Seth 25:55

And then how does that relate with triads and so I say that to say when I continued to take the test over and over. It gave me an eight. And I will say, listening to hearing what you said that as I, as I read through, and I've listened to some of your other episodes of your podcast, that sounds a lot like me, but only about half of the time. And I've asked other people and they're like, no, I can see that. But I've also been like, assigned a two and a five. And sometimes I feel like none of those sound like me, but maybe I'm just missing the boat.

Suzanne 26:26

Okay, well, part of that movement on the enneagram, is that when you're really stressed, you intuitively take on the behavior of another number. And that's how you take care of yourself. And when you're really secure, you intuitively have available to you some characteristics of yet a third number, and two, eight and five would say to me that you're probably an eight because eight’s take on to energy when they feel secure, and they take on five energy when they're particularly stressed.

So five energy in you, if you're stressed, would look like this, you would be probably in a leadership position, getting a lot of stuff done, moving quick, getting bored with people sharing too much and telling you the stories and all that; feeling like you got a lot to do and you want to be collegial but you make your friends outside of work. And then you learn that you have to invite people to the table because you can't lead a group that you haven't joined. And so you began to try to work more collaboratively. And then sometimes people just get you all whipped up.

And so you take on some five energy and you pull back. And when you pull back then you regroup, and you enter with new energy and that's if you're healthy. If you're not healthy. When you pull back you just take your marbles and go home and people aren't sure when you're going to reengage.

Seth 27:57

Okay, so see when you say it out loud that is actually me, but when I read it, it wasn't and so I can see where you're coming at with the test. And being that we don't know each other. I am in a leadership role. I'm a manager at a bank. And so yeah, that all…yes. So see now not as as quite put together as I was a minute ago, just being honest. And so getting back to the just kind of a theme of the church. So I've gotten some pushback from people saying, well, there is no place for the enneagram in the church. It's not in the Bible. When you hear that pushback, and I can't think that you've never heard it. What is the answer to that? Is there a home for something that is not quote unquote, in the Bible in the church like the enneagram?

Suzanne 28:42

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So here's my answer. I have come to believe that the as a Christian, the authority in my life is Jesus. And that's the Jesus that I read about and know from the Gospels and the command seems to be over and over and over-to love. And Jesus seems to always go get who's on the outside and invite the people on the top to move down a bit and the people in the bottom to come up. And I think the enneagram helps one. I think knowledge and wisdom from the enneagram helps one do all of those things better. The enneagram is not doctrine. And it's not dogma, and it doesn't claim to be. It's just helpful. And I think it's true.

And I don't ever get caught in defending the enneagram. You know, if people find it, if they don't like it, that's okay. It's just one spiritual wisdom to and frankly, I think it's better when it's used with others. I'm a big proponent for contemplative practice. And I think the enneagram offers a lot more if you also have a contemplative practice. And, you know, The Road Back to You is popular and The Path Between Us is doing well. And I've been on lots of podcasts and had done a lot of interviews. And a consistent question is what's dangerous about the program? And I really respect that. I think that's a good question to ask. And here's my answer. If you take it to be more than it is, it's just one tool. It's really a good one. But it's not the end all be all of anything. And people who don't know it do just fine.

Seth 30:43

How often do you find that people elevate it to something more than it should be?

Suzanne 30:47

I think people either don't take it seriously enough and make light of it, the whole parlor game idea. Or I think people hope that it will help them with relationship problems that are perhaps more pathological are just between pathology and the bottom of unhealthy behavior in your number. And it's, you know, people need therapy and people need spiritual directors and people need good mentors, and people need all kinds of things that the enneagram can't give you.

Seth 31:36

Yeah, I think maybe everybody needs a little bit of therapy, depending on where you're at in life the world changes more quickly than it used to, and I don't think everybody's equipped to deal with that. And…

Suzanne 31:50

…because I'm sorry, I interrupted, but as I’m 67 with gray hair. I have this West Texas accent that I'm glad you appreciate. But most people after eight hours of teaching find it a little rough, and I get away with a lot, and I literally say to every group I teach, everybody needs a spiritual director or a spiritual leader or a spiritual mentor, and everybody needs a therapist.

And after that, then there are all these available wisdom tools that can help us so I don't know if I should admit it publicly. I don't know who listens to your podcast. I hope not these folks maybe…but when I go to a bookstore and my book is in self help, then I pretty methodically move it to spirituality.

Seth 32:45

Well, I'll start doing the same thing then why not?

Suzanne 32:47

That'd be great!

Seth 32:49

I'll be honest when I see other guests of the show on and like I'm in Target or Walmart or whatever I do move there's to the end cap because why not? Let's do this

Suzanne 32:56

Yeah, good for you! You and I could be partners as some great endeavors.

Seth 33:02

I find it's just easier to do it. And most time nobody cares. And sometimes it's still there the next week. I know that no one at Target even cares either.

Suzanne 33:11

Why not make it available? Yep. It's fun.

Seth 33:14

Yep. It's fun. I've heard you speak in the past. Or maybe you've written it either way about there's there needs to be a difference between discernment and deciding. And can you speak to that a bit?

Suzanne 33:27

Maybe the mantra that I use the most to make my way in the world is what is mine to do? And Joe, and I get asked more questions about discernment than any other single topic. You know, I think people are all basically really good and I think they want to do the right thing. And I think they want to know what is theirs to contribute to the community at large. One of Richard Rohr’s, famous one liners, that's one of my favorites is

the best protection from the next word of God is the last word of God.

And I don't know, which came first you doing a podcast or you being a bank President…manager? Same thing?

Seth 34:22

Depends on the bank it's all the same job.

Suzanne 34:26

Yeah, yeah. I don't know which came first. But if being a bank manager came first and the podcast followed, then you could be in a position of saying, you know, I'm a manager, but I don't host a podcast. But God could easily call you to both. And my husband went to the with to join them in Vincentians when he was 14. He went away to high school seminary, and he was with them for 26 years and left and then asked me to marry him and we've built this life together for 30 (years). And the thing that is astonishing is he would say without hesitation, that God called him into the priesthood, and that God called him out of the priesthood.

And I think once we've discerned something, we think that our life is decided. We stopped listening in a way. And deciding seems to me more often than not to be kind of self-centered, and discernment other centered. And so one of the things I teach is that when you're trying to discern what's yours to do once you say how's this going to affect me? Then it moves much more toward deciding and discerning.

Seth 36:36

The reason I asked that question is I struggle with that I'm oftentimes feel like I should do something. And then if it doesn't go well I wonder if I wasn't really supposed to do that. And I feel like that's still the wrong question whether or not it goes well or not should not impact whether or not I supposed to do that. And to answer your question, I've been a banker much longer than this. I used to have myself, and I'll borrow something from father roar badly I'm certain, because haven't read him in long enough.

He talks about those boxes, you know, you've got box A and then you got box B. And the goal is to get to box C. And I won't try to label those boxes, but I spent the bulk of my life and box a and it's only been recently that I've allowed myself to question things. And to question myself and the question whether or not I'm a good parent, or good husband or good employee, or a good Christian, or anything. And it's been life giving and depressing and exhilarating, and also not depressing all at the same time. Which is, I don't know…I feel like I'm in the middle of a hurricane and that's, it's okay. It's fine.

Suzanne 37:39

When you ask those questions, you're automatically better than you were when you weren't asking them.

Seth 37:48

I hope so.

Suzanne 37:49

Well, you are, you know, people who thinks they’ve got parenting down to a science and they know exactly how to do it and they're prepared for everything. They aren't. They aren't. And people who are struggling with “am I living my life well” people who ask the right questions are led to different answers than people who make statements. And you ask a lot of good questions of yourself. I'm not even talking about us here. You do that well, too but…

Seth 38:21

Well, thanks.

I want to end our time because we're coming close to the end. So I want to end our time with with a question I haven't heard you asked. And if you have, you've probably done more podcasts and I can listen to and that's fine. What do you find are the two most understood numbers, not necessarily in America, but that's where I live. So let's say America, that just, they they come off in a way that society doesn't accept them or they come off in a way that that they're elevated to a position that that number probably isn't geared for. So what do you think are the two most understood types?

Suzanne 38:54

Father Rohr, gave numbers to countries and he says the United States is 3 country and I think he's absolutely right. So 3’s in our country, we all have some three and us because it's the cultural game of sorts. But 3’s who are Americans, particularly 3’s who live in a 3 city so I live in a three city in a 3 country. And as we like 3’s are aggressive and smart and they they can morph into whatever is required to make a sale or to make things work and we really like that but eight or a different thing. So as a male 8, you do really well people I bet you've had leadership positions your whole life. Some that you saw it and some that you just ended up and people just voted for you because we like strong, smart, men who lead well and who are decisive and who take care of the underdog.

Sadly, you put those exact same qualities in a female 8 and culturally, we call still her a bitch. So my daughter is 40. She's an 8 on the enneagram. She's works really hard on being aware of how other people can hear her and all that. But she's been battling that with every other female 8 since she was in junior high. So those are both aggressive numbers that are received differently in the culture.

I think there are fewer 4’s than any other number. And I think 4’s have a pretty hard go of being understood. Lots of 4’s are in literal art forms, but not all are and they are people who need a lot of texture. They have lots of feelings. their moods change quickly, so they kind of don't know what feeling to go with and they're the only number on the ground that can bear witness to pain without having to fix it.

So my answer is not a cop out. But it's what I have come to accept as a reality, and that is that every number has an appreciable gift to offer at some time, and at other times a different personality or a different way of saying is required. And I've never, ever, used the word morality in my teaching, because I'm not a theologian, and that's not my place until recently. But in the tradition that I come through, through Father Rohr, the belief is that a high percentage of any gram of people are enneagram 6’s, not more than 50% but a lot more than other numbers. And you know, every enneagram number is associated with a sin or a passion and 6’s passion or sin is fear. But it's better named as anxiety because they're concerned about possible future events. And I think we're in a time in our culture where we are in government and education and churches and other places manipulating people with fear, and I think that's immoral.

Seth 42:24

That's the entire news cycle I mean you turn it on today there and for at recording for those listening yesterday is when the the US Embassy moved in Israel and and that's all that you see on the news is it's fear. It's never any good news ever.

Suzanne 42:42

Yeah, so but 6’s have learned to manage fear because they've been scanning the horizon for danger for a long time. And 6’s are the number on the enneagram that's the most concerned about the common good. 9’s are the number on the enneagram that see two sides to everything you know in enneagram wisdom, the best part of us also the worst part of you. And the best part of 9’s is that they see two sides to everything and that's also the worst part.

Seth 43:08

You can't make a decision like that, ever.

Suzanne 43:11

That’s right! That's right. That's right. That's right. (you’re such an 8) And so, I think right now, though, what we need to we need to listen to 9’s, and 6’s, because 9’s see both sides and 6’s know how to stay level and prepared without giving in to constant aches and anxiety.

Seth 43:35

For context, if America is a 3, I find most Americans don't do well at comparing ourselves to other nations. And so what would be another nation not necessarily a superpower that also acts like a 3? So that is we're doing a bit of self reflecting, we can be like, well, all right, well, how did they treat other people? And how could they better that so what would be another quote unquote, twin?

Suzanne 43:59

A 3 country…yeah. You know, I don't think there is one that's nice by by any grand master teachers who have assigned numbers to countries, I think that country would have to be in the West. So it would have to be Western Europe or it would have to be Canada or the United States. And, although I don't know, I'm not going to answer because I don't know.

Seth 44:28

That's fine. That's totally fine. I had not planned your answers. I had not planned that question. But I, as I was reflecting while you're talking, it's like, well, who else is a 3?

Suzanne 44:38

Yes, just we are the poster child, so there's that.

Seth 44:44

Suzanne, thank you so much for coming on. And for those listening, do go by the book. I say this on every time I interview an author, and usually the books are so quasi academic that sometimes it's hard to follow and read. That is not the case with the past. Between us it is extremely easy to read and challenging at the same time and so I can't recommend it enough please. At the end of this go buy the book and or move it to the end cap. If that's something that you feel comfortable with doing. But Suzanne thank you so much for coming on. Where can people get involved in this work and in with you?

Suzanne 45:22

Suzannestabile.com…that everything's there. I our centers listed there and all my social media handles are there you can get it all there.

Seth 45:31

Beautiful. Well thank you again Suzanne so much.

Suzanne 45:34

You're welcome. I loved it actually.

Seth Outro 45:58

Here's the thing It has been months since I spoke to Suzanne. And since then, if I'm honest, I've thought more about what she said about the Enneagram and the triads and I've really tried to listen to what she said about each type. In brief, and I've done more research, I've done more study and I've come to realize I think that there is at least a small portion or, well, there is more than a zero percent chance that something in this is true. And that means that I have to sit with it more. I'm not sure what that looks like yet. But I am willing to do something with that. willing to be honest with myself. And, I mean, that's worth it. I think.

Today's music was given with permission from Paul Zach. He is a musician, a worship pastor, a pastor Someone that writes beautiful music to Jesus. You can find more information about Paul at Paulzachmusic.com. As with all the other songs from each and every episode, the specific tracks from today's episode will be on the Can I Say This At Church playlist on Spotify. Thank you, the patrons supporters, the Facebook supporters.

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