Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Matthew Paul Turner 0:00

I'm gonna go back to something that I wrote that

You. You when God sees you, God delights in what is and sees only what's true. That you, yes you, in all of your glory, bring color and rhythm and rhyme to God's story. So be you, fully you, a show stopping review, live your life in full color, every tint, every hue. Discover, explore, have faith but love more, and learn and relearn all that God made you for.

And so I think God looks at us and just and just delights in, in the fact that we are alive.

Seth Price 1:00

I have a confession to make. I really liked children's books like a lot, which shouldn't come as a surprise because I also have kids and some of them are good. And I will tell you right now I can quote the lines, too many children's books without the book in front of me, including this Mickey Mouse book that I grew up with that my parents used to read to me, mostly my dad. But all that to say, this is a Can I say this at church podcast. And this week, Matthew Paul Turner is on the show. We talked a bit about writing for kids about what God looks like, and about why it's important to start at a young age, having a conversation about God, and the relationship that we all have with a divine being. I also want to say thank you, few new folks have jumped over at Patreon, in the last few weeks, and I'm thankful for that. And that's, um, man, it's always humbling when that happens. One last little quick thing, you will see in the show notes, a bookshop.org. Link, that link will take you directly to Matthew Paul Turner's book, and buying the book that way will support Matthew in a better way than hopefully Amazon will it also kind of support the show but more so it will support Matthew and a local bookstore where you happen to live. And that's also freaking amazing. So with that, let's rock in then let's

Unknown 2:23

forget maybe we made a God looks like

Seth Price 2:33

how we want to do this. There we go. The Matthew Paul Turner. See, when you put a D in front of it, it makes it makes you it makes it something special? Sure.

Matthew Paul Turner 2:42

Yeah. They could also make it something. Another kind of something,

Seth Price 2:48

you know, like the Ohio State University, you know, the EU, you know, anyway, yeah. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for coming on in the evening. I know evenings are not always convenient. But it seems to be the best for me after I'm able to prepare kids,

Matthew Paul Turner 3:01

you know what you have, you have to record when it is convenient. And I I am happy to be here.

Seth Price 3:07

One of the questions I like to ask in the most existential way possible. Because that way you can do whatever you want with it is when you try to explain like what a Matthew Paul Turner is like, what is that?

Matthew Paul Turner 3:21

What is a Matthew? What

Seth Price 3:22

what is AU? Yeah, they're there? That's a horrible sentence.

Matthew Paul Turner 3:29

Um, I I'm a dad, who writes books about God, I guess is Yeah, I mean, I guess that would be the cleanest, easiest version of that. Probably not, not not not necessarily the most interesting, but, ya know, that's,

Seth Price 3:51

it is what it is. That is my most favorite way to ask that question. In the day job. I'll also ask questions in the very similar way. And it's fun to watch clients go.

Matthew Paul Turner 4:02

What exactly are you talking about? Yeah, yeah.

Seth Price 4:06

Yeah. So like, like, so I work at a bank. And so like, when business owners will come in, or whatever, I'll ask them questions about their business in a very similar way. And they'll go I've never thought about that. Was like, well, that matters. Like, why do you even do this? Like, what? What Why did you? You obviously are not happy? You're not saying that you aren't but like the the client or whatever. Like, why are we even here? Why don't you just shut it all down? So anyway, so tell me a bit about you in a more general sense. So kind of how does one get in to writing children's books about God? Because it's not a massive genre, at least not one that I've ever purchased. Most of my children's books came from the Dolly Parton Imagination Library. And so I'm very thankful for those there.

Matthew Paul Turner 4:48

I love I love that library. But that a nonprofit. Yeah. You know, I my ex wife told me A many, many times as I was reading to my children, that I should write a children's book. And it was. And that was basically built on the idea that I was a writer, I wrote, you know, I wrote books for adults, you know, nonfiction, the memoirs and stuff, and, and she, but she, she, she knew that I also had this gift for making silly songs that rhyme for people's birthdays, and things like that, there's something that I am, rhyming had been something that I was doing, since, you know, I was like, 13, carrying around a notebook. And so, when I started writing children around, I started reading children's books about faith or God to my kids, any, anytime I would like, pull one out that, you know, it would be like, the fourth or fifth at bedtime, and, you know, we'd read, you know, all the ones that they liked, and then I'd pull one from the pile, and try to read it. And I would almost always find myself like, either skipping pages more like changing the the narrative a little bit, too, to protect them from some of the ideas that the books were, you know, putting forth and, and I just thought it was one of those things where, you know, I, I was just cocky enough to think maybe there's a chance that I could potentially fill a need here. Because I wanted to introduce my kids to God in a different way than how I was introduced to God. And so it my very first book, was, you know, because we ended up we ended up self publishing my first children's book, and it was, it was when God made light. And I started like, playing with this, I first off, I wrote a whole bunch of terrible, terrible rhymes about God. And it was, you know, like, just, they were just awful things. And, and finally, I got this idea about light. And I started playing with this concept of what what it would look like, or what, how could I describe light coming to existence? In that very first moment, what would that look like? And so I started playing with this idea. And then I started then I kind of moved into how we interact with light during the day, and how we interact with light during that night and, and the light that's inside us, and that we are, you know, a partner that we are the salt and light. And so like this idea that we could be light, we kind of just like, it turned into this really beautiful, like, fun narrative of rhyming, that all dealt with the light of God. And I sent it. I sent it off to my agent. And my agent was like, This is really good, Matthew, but I don't necessarily do children's books, but I'm, I'll send it out there. Well, he did send it out there. And we got 11 noes 11. And like 11 I, because one of those people, one of those 11, knows, came back twice and said no. And so

Seth Price 8:14

did they forget, they said no, once or did you know,

Matthew Paul Turner 8:18

it was, it was the one person on the team really wanted, wanted to sign me, but like, I gotta ask if I could put the if I could write under like a pseudonym, I got asked if I could, like, you know, could I could we put your your wife's name on the book instead of your name, because like I at the time was writing a blog called Jesus needs new PR. And so I had a little bit of a reputation in the Christian space for that didn't sit well with a lot of the faith publishing, you know, Faith publishers. And so I, we self published it, and we printed 5000 copies, and we ended up selling 4800 of them. And one of those publishers, and it was actually the one that said no, twice, came back and said, Let's do this. And in the meantime, I had already started writing when God made you, which ultimately became the first book that I released. And you know, I mean, I, I hoped, I hoped that the book would connect with people I didn't I had no idea that it would connect with so many people and continue to connect with people. And it was it was a it was a wonderful I'd like I thoroughly enjoy writing. Writing prose for children because I think that a have, you know, for all of the people who are deconstructing it, I like to think that maybe we can give our kids something different. That works for them that they don't have to then recover from 2025 30 years down the road.

Seth Price 10:24

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Our, our church gives out your last book. I can't remember the event.

Matthew Paul Turner 10:32

What is what is God like?

Seth Price 10:35

No, we got what you and hold on. Yeah, when God made you, it's upstairs. So it means I remember that. So I had forgotten that we do this. And so they give it out. It's either ed. I feel like it's it baby dedications. And it's like, give it to the parents with the intention of eventually you're going to read to these kids. We'd like this book, read this one to them. I don't remember if that's what it is. It could be when they get a little bit older, but it's an event and in the kids all, every every child in the church gets one as they age into that, which is cool. But when this book came from your publisher, like my daughter's lit up, they're like, We know his name. And they literally went over to the shelf, and they grabbed it back down. And I was like, Can we read on like, shirtless was read, I was like, you want to read the new one the light. Now let's read this other one? Because they like

Matthew Paul Turner 11:21

new things? Yeah, that's

Seth Price 11:23

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, it's the way that you write about God is good, because I will say, I also have many of those other books that you read to your kids at bedtime, or even religious at any time. And I found myself filtering everything in the Old Testament, many of the things in the New Testament or I'm like, well, that's not even what that says. And that's based on a bad translation of that word. Like, if the Bible is always translated with a bias, but this children's book is beyond bias, this children's book is, is just propaganda.

Matthew Paul Turner 11:56

It is and they tried to, like hide it under this, like, not even a cute, like, not even cute imagery, but like, you know, just they try to hide it under some sort of imagery. That is that I'm like, you know, kids can see through some of that stuff. I mean, it's, you know, depending on their age, and whatnot, but like, I'm like, I'm also like, big on like, not putting a pronoun on God. And, like, I just, I don't want like, I don't want my kids to instantly think of a, of a white male, like when they think about the deity and so like I, the only time I have used a pronoun, in a book for God was for the book that I finished for Rachel Held Evans. And, and that was because Rachel had used all of the pronouns. He, she, and they, in reference to God on in a couple little parts of her book, and, and I so so I honored that, that you know, that creativity, and, but for my own books I try to avoid, I always avoid the pronouns, because I think that it's just, I don't know, I think when you can, why not?

Seth Price 13:09

Yeah. Yeah, one of my favorites is I tell Jonah's story or not the journal, you know, the Jonas story the same way every time to my kids in the children's version of the Bible story. So when we would go through, I would use the pictures, but I would literally retell the Jonas to retell in a different way more about though, like, we all get asked to do things we don't want to do. And when you stop fighting, things happen. And it's okay that people that you don't think should be forgiven, get to still get forgiven, even when you think they shouldn't be, is effectively the way that I tell that story, which is kind of Jonah but not all of Jonah. But that's not what's in the books. And so as my kids got older, and I say it the same way every time, and they can read the words, they're like, that's not what it says. We're done with this book, then this book is done.

Matthew Paul Turner 13:58

We don't wait. When you start to read. It's like, like the bad words. Yeah, it's finished. You can no longer smell Shi t like Yeah, yeah. Without them knowing it.

Seth Price 14:07

Like yeah, yeah, this this book is this book is done. Yeah, we were reading the Chronicles of Narnia recently, my daughter, and I think we're on Prince Caspian. And it talks about some queer folk. And she is used to that word in a different way, because she's in fourth grade. And there's conversations about that, especially recently with all of the laws and we live in Virginia, and we decided to when they said that we could, you know, ban people in any way. It's not what you're here, but I the way she's like, that's not what that word means. I'm like, no, yes. That's words change. Maybe I can't 100 That can't explain linguistics to you at eight o'clock at night. That's not the time to do linguistics. So so getting to this book, why? Where did I am God's dream come from?

Matthew Paul Turner 14:53

Um, well there's a lot And when God made you, at the very end, that where I say, you being you is God's dream coming true. And I've had a lot of people, a lot of a lot of more conservative people complain about that, like a, you know, in the sense of like, you know, God doesn't dream or you know how we aren't God's dream, like, it's very much like that for some reason that that line hits them in a in a negative way. And so, in the very beginning, it kind of started out as a way, well, that line takes you off, I'm going to read all about being God's dream. And I think that it turned into like, it was my very, I'd always wanted to write a children's book in first person, because I wanted to give children a way of expressing faith in there that they can own or that they can kind of have ownership over the ideas. And I just think that when you put an eye in front of something, and you say I am this, there's power in that. And I, you know, I wanted to give them instead of it being you or this, I wanted them to be able to say I love myself, because of this, I look when I look in the mirror, I see who God sees. And so it's uh, so that's definitely, definitely something that I wanted to I wanted to explore. But then, um, you know, I recently had a big, a big event in my own life where my wife and I separated, and I actually came out as gay and, and so this book, really is a is a little bit of a book to myself, I mean, it's a celebration of, of what I want my kids to know about them. But also it was kind of me talking to the inner child of my own my own person, and reminding myself of what does it mean to be God's dream to be a one kid parade to be seen as wonderfully made. And, and so I split the idea, I split the book, in my own head, I don't know if this if this isn't like, something that like is put in the text, but like, in my own head, it's split up into this, this idea of body, mind and body, mind and emotions and then soul. And so it was I wanted to reflect the idea of what can I give kids? What words can I give kids that would give them confidence, allow them to see God in a way that is positive that is that is like encouraging, that is affirming to them, that they can speak these words over themselves. And hopefully at some point, maybe it sinks in and they and they become it becomes the it becomes a part of their language. And so yeah, like and I this book is, is definitely there's a couple places that that probably goes a little too deep for a child in some cases. But it's, uh, I told my, my editors came back and they were like, they wanted to change, you know, a couple of different words in the book. And, you know, I was the very first time after seven I've written this is my seventh children's book. And I finally for the first time, I said, You know what, I'm no, I'm gonna keep it. And it's the one of the words was transcend. And I know that that's a complicated word. And it's a word that, you know, people of faith have a have issue with, but when it comes to what I think about my own life, and having to on a daily basis, like my, my child, my middle daughter, or My middle child, my daughter came home from school today. You know, talking about, like, you know, how did she put it something like my circle of friends is having a problem that all of so and so she started to to express these thoughts of what was going on at school between her and her friends and, and I said, you know, it was our whole conversation was about her having to transcend that experience that you know, those words and those, those thoughts that were put onto her and you know, Push through. And so I, I That's why I kept it. And so I think that there's some big ideas or big thoughts in this book. But I'm hopeful that it provides parents with a really good jumping off points to start conversations about their about the you know about body image and about the emotions that we feel, and how all of the things that we are as people. There are, there are glimpses of God that we can find in those moments.

Seth Price 20:32

Yeah, yeah. So as I, as I read it, I'm going to keep referencing my six year old, because she's smarter than me. I genuinely think that she just doesn't have the vocabulary or the rest of like, yeah, she's freaking brilliant. So I gave her the book. She's read it a couple of times by herself. And I told her last night, I said, Hey, so I'm going to talk to the guy that wrote this book, which she thought was cool. Everyone else she doesn't care about, you're the only. And I said, Well, tell me what your favorite pages and she gave me two pages. And so just curious your thoughts on that. But I asked her why. And then she had a really random question that I told her that I would ask. I'll ask that first, actually. So the bold letters, she started writing them down. And she's like, do they make one big sentence? If I write them all down? To which I said, I had no idea? Probably not. Maybe it probably just looked good on the page. But I will ask him,

Matthew Paul Turner 21:29

like, tell her that I could kick myself now. Because that is a really beautiful idea. I wish I could I wish we could go back and change that. But no, they don't. Fair. They are. Somebody who is in charge of type treatment chosen the word fair.

Seth Price 21:45

So yeah, that's what I thought I was like, it probably just looks good on the page, it balances out the pictures. He just wrote the words. And she's like, I bet they make a sentence. And so there's these massive, like two inch, you know, the way that a six year old writes, whereas like the stop it, I'll just ask him. So but her favorite page, though, and I'll read this to you if it's all right, is there's no page numbers. So it says this body is mined. And I'll treat it so kind of value in love what I know God designed, because God made me me. And when she reads it out loud, that sentence she actually struggles with because I don't think she understands the grammar, which is fine. And so that was good, because she asked what? Yeah, she asked what it meant. And then you know, in one day, you'll see the dream about Gods dreaming, that's who I will be, she wouldn't tell me why it's her favorite page. I don't know if she has the words to say. So she's adamant that it is. You have any thoughts about just that page specifically?

Matthew Paul Turner 22:40

I think that, um, you know, we, we live in a faith world that has spent a lot of time criticizing the body. We talked about the body of Christ, but like, as far as our bodies, and what, how we think about our bodies, how, you know, the, the idea that our bodies are, can get us into trouble. And I wanted to, I want to, I wanted to create this, this, these words, or this, this prose that really celebrated the body, no matter like, whether we're no matter what that what the individual looks like, or how, how they get how they move around. What it like, I wanted to celebrate the human body. And I think that giving when I when I said when I wrote the, the phrase, God, God made me me. I mean, like, if I'm honest, I'm I was writing that for myself, like, I was really writing that out of my own story. And hoping that it translated to somebody else's story. So they can connect the dots that God made them, them. And they and that, that the light that is inside is going to shine. If we allow it to, if we give it we give it we give it permission to and so and so to speak. And so yeah, no I, that those, you know, that little section of the book that specifically I believe, maybe the page prior to it, that book that was some of the very first things that I wrote because I really want I was really focusing on this whole like, wanting to create this silly prose about you know, how somebody feels inside their own skin. And you know, when you know that they liked their belly that they liked the way their hair did all you know went went sideways and they have like they just liked themselves because they were themselves that wasn't because something or it wasn't because it was, you know, perfect or not perfect. It was because it was them. Yeah. And so this idea of empowerment, finding empowerment that God made me me. I think there's a lot of I mean, I think hopefully, parents and kids will find a lot of power that.

Seth Price 25:19

Yeah, yeah, I, as I've read the book, I've read it for myself. And then I've read it through the eyes of my kids, as I watched them read it. One last little comment on one of your lines, and then I'll pivot. You have a section here that says it's whether they're in this like community garden thing, which is cool that it's even a community garden. Or maybe this is a school garden? I don't know. You didn't draw it. Or you didn't draw?

Matthew Paul Turner 25:40

Draw the picture. But I did. I did help with the idea. Yeah. So

Seth Price 25:44

there's a partner that says dramatic, which is bold, and so she yells it, and clever, but neat, hardly ever, which she literally said, she's like, that is me. That's, that's me. And I have to I had to, I was like, 100% Yeah, you were the messiest, loudest, smartest person I've ever met. Yeah, yeah. Um, do you feel like children's books should be required reading whether or not you have kids for adults.

Matthew Paul Turner 26:14

mean, I think some, I think some are really, really wonderful ways of like, expressing ideas and mysteries that we we still kind of, even as adults don't fully grasp. It's like, I was I know. But with a friend or somebody, I don't know, if I was on another podcast, or some sort of interview, I talked about where the wild things are, and how that book kind of like. It's not even this most gloriously written book. But how that book enters into the story. And where you turn the page, it creates an experience for the reader. And I know that that book still speaks to me, like, in a weird way, like, it is like an experience for me to read it to my kid. And like, it was like, it was like I was handing down this really incredible experience, not just a story, not just cool pictures, but an experience. Because it, it allows you to get quiet for a minute, it allows you to like really emphasize this idea that this kid is getting ready to enter this space that you don't even understand. And then, and then it gets all like loud and boisterous. And it's a really wonderful book to kind of read to your kids and to give it like, almost like a gift. So I, you know, I'll say this. When I started writing children's books, I did not know, I did not fully appreciate, to what degree other people outside of parenting, engage children's books. I've gotten hundreds and hundreds of letters, specifically about a couple of my books like when God made you and when I pray for you. And one of the letters that I got from when God made you is from was from a pastor in Vermont, who was also doing some hospice care work on the side. And she walked into a situation where this 99 year old woman was in her last days. And my book, when God made you a sitting on her side table, and the woman patted it. And so the pastor began to read it. And it was, she actually ended up reading it three times, I think, in the last week of her life, to this woman. And I never like when I was writing it, it never occurred to me that somebody in their last moments here on Earth would engage those lyrics. And it would be a part of their story. And then on the flip side of that I've had I remember apparent parents from Massachusett, Massachusetts, wrote me and said, they had three hours with their baby, while the baby lived for three hours, and during that time they read when God made you over that baby. Three different times. And again, never in a million years, would I have ever imagined that being a book that somebody in their story that in their scenario ever would want to read? Like, I'm not sure I'd want to read my book in that kind of moment. And so I just I do think that there is something about children's books that transcend to different people's story. So, I've had people who are single, write me and say, I found your book in target. And I literally read it to myself. I read it to myself, and just sat there and wept. And then I bought it. And so like, it's one of those things where I wasn't, I don't know, I would have answered that question differently before prior to like, having, you know, received so many letters from people outside of the audience that I assumed would engage my stories. And so it has, it has opened my eyes to the power of a children's book, and, and the fact that all the places that it would go, like, there are places that a children's book will go and be okay, and be safe. Where other books that are not for children or not about big ideas are not about not seen as without pictures that would not be seen as safe or as welcomed. And so that's been a really, that's been a beautiful learning experience for me. I'm sure that other children's books writers would, would probably answer that differently. Because there are some books that I that I have read out loud that I don't think would be required reading for anybody.

Seth Price 31:23

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you remember like last year, I had all those weird ad breaks, like it would just randomly be something, we're not doing that, instead, I thought I'd do this, I need your help. If you're able to head on over to the website for the show, there are two things that you can do. One is you head over the website, you click the Patreon button or support button, I forget what I call it. And you jump in there, those people helped make the show a thing so that you can listen to it right now, to the easier one, you could just leave a rating and a review on the podcast app of choice that you currently use. Either one of those is fine. But I would love it if you would do either one, specifically the rating and reviewing it's an exponential thing, that the algorithms pick it up. And that's just math. It's just compounding on top of itself. Anyway, all that to say that was it. That was the ad break. And now we're gonna get back into it my kids listen to the show. So I'm asking this question intending for them to listen. And I guess I'll wonder. And then just Matthew, just a little bit about about the show. I record these for me, every episode is something that I find interesting. I'm happy that other people like to listen, but it's not really for anybody other than me, which I guess makes me selfish. That I learn a lot. I

Matthew Paul Turner 33:00

write my books that you know what, I write my books for myself? Yeah, I get it. Yeah. To me. It's like if I can speak to my kid, the kid in me, maybe? Maybe that will translate.

Seth Price 33:13

Yeah. To Yeah, other people. So being that you're also a dad, and you know that oftentimes your kids don't listen to you, because you're you're just not smart. You know, just because you do that. I'm an idiot. How? How does? How do you think God sees children? And really, that's no different than the way that God sees you and I as non children, but I think that we've convinced ourselves that it's different. How does God actually see children

Matthew Paul Turner 33:46

I'm gonna go back to something that I wrote that you you when God sees you, God delights in what is and sees only what's true that you, yes, you in all of your glory, bring color and rhythm and rhyme to God's story. So be you fully you a show, stopping review. Live your life in full color, every tent, every hue, discover, explore, have faith, but love more, and learn and relearn all that God made you for. And so I think God looks at us and just and just delight in, in the fact that we are alive that we much like I mean, Seth, when you look at your kid, it's like I told my kid, my youngest kid on the way to he's in first grade in the car, right and the car line as I'm getting ready to drop him off. I just told him I was like, as I just want you to know. You make every single day of my life better. That Even on the hardest days that we have If I am blessed, that you are in my story, that I get to see that I have a front row seat to your story, and I, and his eyes get all big, and you know, and he gives me this big ol hug. And I just, you know, like, I just think about how I think about my own kids. And that, if God is God is God, then God must have this far bigger abundance of joy. That is received than than I can even imagine. And you know, it's like, we it's like the first, in so many situations in our own in how we were raised. It being introduced to God, we get this, we get this really beautiful picture of God, but then we get this really awful picture of us. And which really, like, makes the picture of God, very blurry, very hard to see. And fully appreciate. And I think that I'm as I have, like, really, you know, in this process of like writing children's books, and like re re imagining my own perspective of God, and re positioning, all of the negative self talk that I have learned or picked up over the years. And, you know, and trying to switch that to, to what I believe God would say, in my story. There's man that it's there's power and healing and hope, and, and joy, and I just it tell, that's what I want my kids to. That's what I want my kids to know, that's what I want my kids to just fully embrace about God's perspective of them. Like, you. I remember my, my oldest, when he was five, we were on our way to swimming lessons. And he asked me Hey, Dad, what are Daddy? What is the what is? What is the devil? And I and, and in, you know, recovering independent fundamental Baptist form? Like, who told you that? I had to have, I had to ask, like, what, what was the context of that conversation?

Seth Price 38:06

Well, it was wi Sorry, I was in school.

Matthew Paul Turner 38:10

And of course, like, I mean, you know, many times, I have to remind myself that I, there's, I don't need to instill my own fear into my children's experiences. But it was it was a moment it was very defining, because I when it comes to the spiritual perspectives of my kids, and protecting, how they are introduced to ideas when they are introduced to ideas, when you know, it's like, matters to me. And because I know, I think that all of those things are potential shapers of their perspectives on themselves. And their perspectives on the God, I believe created

Seth Price 38:58

them. Yeah. I've also had that question. And it was couched in between a question of I forget who it was just a year and a half ago. So it was right before my daughter got baptized. And my middle daughter, not the same young daughter, that's a pistol. She had she had captured about the devil, and I remember my answer. And I've since grown that answer into larger conversations for my 13 year old, because you can, but the answer I gave her I think was something to the effect of the devil is that thing that allows you to hurt people? And it's something that you have to take some ownership with. And that's why it feels bad. That's basically what I told her. And then she didn't answer the question, or it didn't follow up and just said, Well, you have to be baptized to be saved. To which I was like, okay, and that's like I said, Where's this coming from? It was some girl on the bus or a daycare that had said something and I was like, well, a lot of people believe that. Yeah, most of those people live in America. Oh, But I'd like to remind you, my dear that most of Christians don't live in America. And most Christians also don't believe what you just said. But it doesn't need to be argued about. Yeah. And she's like, yes, like, what do you believe in? Like, I believe there are a lot of people in the Bible that were actually baptized in the Holy Spirit before they ever touched water. And we can walk through those if you want. So baptism something different. And then we, you know, we had a conversation about that. So,

Matthew Paul Turner 40:27

and you know, what, those are the kinds of things with like, if, if they, even if you do believe it, that's, as long as you're not projecting those ideas onto somebody else. And making it a requirement. It's the it's the requirement. It's the, it's little kids, like, my, my, my kids have come home. And you know, they've had conversations with like, six and seven year olds, and they, these, these six and seven year olds in their classroom, are, you know, saying this is how it is, this is what you do. If you don't do this, then this happened. Like, I mean,

Seth Price 41:02

and that's what my mom and dad said, and they're,

Matthew Paul Turner 41:04

that's exactly that's exactly it. Yeah. And I just, you know, I, I teach my kids to value, like, my hope is that I teach my kids to value and celebrate all the different perspectives that people have, on spirituality, whether it is a Christian spirituality, or it is an outside of our, you know, the, the Christianity that we adhere to, and it's, um, I want people to honor the, you know, other people's beliefs, and, you know, and respect them, and, and, you know, what, I mean, if you, I don't know, if you've done much traveling, but like, whenever anytime I traveled out the United States, I, I learned something new about God, I because I meet, I meet somebody else whose story is different. And, and so far outside of my own, that they that their story touches me that their story changes me and I can't help but believe that, that, that I see God in them. And you know, it's, uh, yeah, yeah, I don't know. That's, that's how I that's, that's what I hope to give my kids.

Seth Price 42:15

Yeah, so, um, I want to ask a question. And you can answer it or not answer because it's not really directly related to this book, but it is kind of related to your first book. And then a little bit more current events. So the theology that you're espousing in here, if I have to deconstruct from your writing, is that for some reason, we got it wrong, and we're not supposed to love people. And I actually am not okay, which sounds like a stupid thing to be deconstructing from in 20 years, as opposed to the books that I'm changing the stories for as I read those to my kids. So, and then you were saying your first one, you had to Self Publish? Because we're like, yeah, we're not going to do that. Like, I don't know if that was the logical reasons or reasons because of your, your miss your your reputation. Or apparently, you said they wanted you to change your name to a woman. Because I guess only women can write children's book. I don't, I don't know.

Matthew Paul Turner 43:12

My ex wife had a much better reputation.

Seth Price 43:15

Okay, so that's very similar mindset to we're not allowed to talk about critical race theory, we're not allowed to talk about gender issues in schools, we're not allowed. We don't read these books, these books are not allowed to be consumed. And I can see a text like this one for kids not being allowed in many places that it shouldn't be allowed in churches, libraries, because it doesn't necessarily align with what the narrative needs to be for power and control. So what do we do to counteract the, the, that we're not allowed to talk about these books?

Matthew Paul Turner 43:55

Whenever when we talk about it, like we taught like we we say the things that that are that other people say or unsayable and I think that uh it's like when my my kid, my like, I to me empathy, when I can give my kid the gift of empathy when I can give them the gift of being able to see somebody else's experience and to empathize with not necessarily knowing exactly how that experience affected that person. But being willing to listen and to show compassion. That is when I give that gift to my kids, it allows them to see the world see their kids see their friends see the see the issues. and they are already far beyond my like, I would like when I think about all the things that the libraries are trying to, you know, they're trying to take out of the books that have libraries. And I think about all the the laws that are being passed in Texas and Florida, like, my kids are so far like they they fully grasp the importance and the danger of those kinds of systems that are being put into place. They know that there is a a group of people are out there lots of people who fight against the goodness, that might hit their parents try to give them or try to instill in them. And my goal is to teach kids to teach my kids to whatever we do, we are always constantly learning that we're never going to know, every experience. And so whenever you think you've gotten all the when you've gotten everything that you there is to know about a person's story, that's when you need to stop and start learning more. Because it is that moment, when we say, I put a stake in the ground, this is what I know, is when we start to fall behind the conversation, because conversations are constantly evolving, they're constantly moving forward, they're constantly being shifted by other people's experiences. And while we don't necessarily have to wobble with every single story that comes in, that we hear, we should be empathetic to those stories that change and shift us and they should, they should be, they should have the power to be listened to and heard. And so that's what I tell my kids, that listening to other people's stories empowers us to stand and fight. I mean, I've told my kids I said, you know, there's going to be a time in your life that you're probably going to have to, you're gonna have to stand up to your friend who has said something that you know, is unkind about somebody else that you know, you're going to hear. I mean, I've even talked to my kids about like how people perceive me, like, when, you know, there's gonna come a time when you're probably going to hear somebody say something negative about your dad being gay. And while that's not your job is not to protect me. Your job is to stand up for all of the LGBTQ people that you know, or whether the ones that you don't know. And so we we talk about those things, we talk about our privilege, we talk about our, our, our place in society, and how we can help move the conversation forward. So how do we counteract those, like the things I mean, number one, we give, we give our kids a different story. Like it's like I know, I people ask all the time, well, how do you like? How do you fix what is broken about modern evangelicalism? I'm like, the biggest thing that we can do is give our kids a different God's story, like give our kids something new, something fresh, something that is not built on this white male perspective that we have that have has been instilled in us since we were very, very little and without us even knowing, give our kids a different perspective. give our kids a different story. And so like even so, whether it is combating evangelicalism or combating, like people wanting to, you know, you know, take books out of the library, it is we have to give them a different story, and empower that and empower our kids to think differently. Because they're, we're all subject to the things that I mean, I was I was raised and I was raised in a situation where information was controlled to an nth degree. Like it was like I was raised in a way where I wasn't allowed to watch certain like, most of television I wasn't allowed to watch. If anything, we weren't allowed to go to movie theaters and see a movie. And you know, it was anything that was beyond outside of PG, we would never we never even have a chance but And even if it was PG, my parents would watch it closely. And if anything would like, come up, that would be outside thing. So I grew up in a very sheltered experience. And, but, yeah, I mean, honestly, like, the worst thing that people can do if they really want to control the conversation is actually try to control the conversation. Like it just doesn't happen. It you know, like you don't, it always, almost always does the opposite. Because words are pretty powerful things that that always find a way to get read and get heard, and, and people for people to experience and so I I know, that was a very long, very mixed up answer. And I'm not even sure I answered it fully, but I'll shut up.

Seth Price 51:05

No, no, it's fine. No. Yeah, I could paraphrase it, you did answer the question. Yeah, I'm not gonna paraphrase it, you can just rewind it, you can listen to it again, if you're

Matthew Paul Turner 51:17

a lot. A corner a little bit.

Seth Price 51:21

I do. But you're not wrong. It's not the wrong corner to be in. And I will say, as I've done some counseling with my son, I have not done the counseling, but counseling in the family requires everybody to do some work, it's shot, which is something I had to learn. I don't know if I've ever said that on the show. I'm not editing it out. I'm too lazy. So that's gonna stay there. The more I tried to be restrictive, and that's my personality, the worse things get. And the less controlling I tried to be. There's still more screw up, there's still screw ups. But um, they're less way less frequent. And when they happen, they're also way less over the top. Which isn't the same as controlling words. Yeah, who controls control? It doesn't really matter.

Matthew Paul Turner 52:11

Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, it's like, it's like, When am I when it comes to the, the, the topic of sex and sexuality. You know, I, there's a lot of fear, as a parent, about information. And now, my, my ex wife, like, she had a completely different experience growing up. She, her parents talked about sex very openly, in a very like, you know, adult way from an early age. And so we've kind of like embraced her way of going of doing things. And it has, there's been times because it because of how I was raised, it triggers fear, it triggers like, it triggers like, you know, just this, what am I? What am I giving my kids? You know, am I? What permissions Am I giving them by giving them information? And so far, it has given them a healthy perspective about sex, that I didn't have at 17, let alone at 13, let alone at 11. Yeah, you know, my, my, my, my daughter understands LGBTQ plus stories better than I do. Because she, you know, she's, she's read a lot of books. And she's engaged in a lot of conversations in her and you know, in her schools discussion, and so you. Like, I have learned that, like you said, this, this need for us to control is usually in for me, anyway, it's this fear. It's this fear that is triggered in me because of my childhood. And it's because of all the things that my church and my environment, tried to control, and not allow me to engage. And it didn't work for me. And it's not going to work for my kids. And I'd rather empower them with information than to limit their perspectives.

Seth Price 54:27

Yeah, I have two final questions. One of them is absolutely ridiculous and there's no way to segue into it. And the other I asked every single guest and so that one's easy. So the ridiculous question is this and I want to ask it because I don't talk to people that rhyme very often. The last one being propaganda I think was probably that but I mean, he writes his own he writes his own music. I love his stuff. Love, love what he does. I have to think that you have seen on YouTube people rapping children's books, besides like ludicrous so if you know it with llama llama red pajama, which for those listening I will link it in In the transcript because I've transcribed these, if you haven't seen that version of that book, that is the only way now to read Lama law. Have you seen the ludicrous versions? I do not think you know who you would have Chris is, of course, yeah. So I forget the beat, but he's at some radio station out in LA. And they've made this their shtick, they'll have like, they'll give you a children's book. And they'll drop a beat. And you'd be like, Yeah, and so it's not even try to do ludicrous. You just got, it's like a minute and a half long. It's not long, but it is fantastic. So if someone was rapping the words to this book, what is the background rap music that they're playing? They're like, what's the song? But you're like, Yeah, this embraces these words.

Matthew Paul Turner 55:42

Ever? No idea. I was just gonna say, though, there is a rap version of one of my books on the on YouTube somewhere. Oh, yeah, it is actually a thing. I I'm sure you could probably search it and find it. But it's when God made you, I'm pretty sure. And so it's, and I think that I would probably want it the background music to be something different. I, but I will say this, I if, if my one of my books were to inspire somebody's like, uh, you know, somebody's story, too. And they would like want to turn it into a rap song. I you know, I mean, that's a pretty cool thing. I'm not I'm not opposed to it. But I would I certainly would not want to be in charge of the background. Yeah.

Seth Price 56:34

But yeah, one of the most recent ones I watched was one of the Dr. Seuss books, I can't read what it was, I think it was hop on socks, or Fox was socks, or whatever that book is called. And I think the backing track was forgot about Dre. And so it was just the beat to forgot about Dre with him wrapping that on there. And it was amazing. We're gonna do Yeah, that's what I'm asking. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, what's the what's that music that you know, when you hear it? You're like, that's my jam. And that's what's in these words, right here. This?

Matthew Paul Turner 57:03

I don't know. Probably something by TLC, but I'm not sure it would be a you know, it wouldn't be like necessarily, this is the book but like, I was gonna say crate. But I guess when you said that second part. I was like,

Seth Price 57:19

well, maybe we'll just the just the Left Eye Lopes versus like

Matthew Paul Turner 57:24

the vibe. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good vibe notes.

Seth Price 57:30

Anyway, I told you a ridiculous question. Okay, look, I only scripted

Matthew Paul Turner 57:34

that more people would ask questions like that.

Seth Price 57:38

I script very few questions for these because the first year was just a robotic version of me that they didn't sound like conversations. And so I usually write down one question that was the one that I wrote down for you. That is the question. Besides the ones that I promised my daughters that I was, you know, that's amazing. I love it. It's just, that's, that's the way I like to roll. So when you for you try to wrap words around whatever God is, or the Divine is, or whatever that is, what are those words?

Matthew Paul Turner 58:10

Wow. There was a TV show called justified. And there was a scene where a a woman was on in her final moments before her passing. And in those moments, she quietly said, it's time for me to go and experience the mystery. And I think that God is God is the mystery. God is the NIA. And so because I think that a mystery is something that we're constantly wanting to engage. And yet, we're intrigued by it. We're, we're moved by it like and so like I, for me, the word mystery is a is a pretty all encompassing word to like, how I think about God and all the time, because it keeps me just engaging the story. I mean, I can come up with like, you know, big, awesome, good, you know, but like, I love this idea of, of engaging. I mean, I think about that line that the line that she said, so like, quite often because it's like, it's time for me to go and experience the mystery. And, and I think about that in my own life, like on a daily basis as like, I want to, it's time for me to go engage the mystery.

Seth Price 59:57

Thank you so much for your time tonight.

Matthew Paul Turner 59:59

I appreciate Thank you for having me.

Unknown 1:00:03

Did God kill his kin? Did he have to have blood before he forgive? Maybe me to God looks like

Seth Price 1:00:24

now, I haven't added it up. But there are hundreds of 1000s if not millions of podcasts on the internet, and I am humbled that you continue to download this one. This is your first time here. Please know that there are transcripts of these shows. Not always in real time, but I do my best. And if you go back in the logs, you can find transcripts for pretty much any episode that you'd like the show is recorded and edited by me but it is produced by the patreon supporters of the show. That is one of the best if not the best way that you can support the show if you get anything at all out of these episodes, if you think on them, or if you you know you're out and about and you tell your friends about it or Hey, mom, dad, brother, sister, friend, boss, Pastor, here's what I heard. What are your thoughts on that? If this is helping you in any way and it is helping me consider supporting the show in that manner. It is extremely inexpensive, but collectively, it is so very much helpful for you. I pray that you are blessed. You know that you're cherished and beloved. We'll talk soon

Unknown 1:01:29

the phase like a Tina Nam no Mildred Ross and his husband godson their children face like a kid with Ted or Tyrone Lucy bond with an extra chromosome a Pablo with legs he can't move by himself a girl born a Daniel now is even why guys named if you have a heartbeat to take guys, God has a face to face mask. If God has His face mask if God has a face to face you your

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