Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening and is transcribed from Patreon version of the conversation. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the audio

A.J. Hendry 0:00

is we need to create a language which enables us to live out of it, you know. And so one of the things that I, you know, if we talk about faith, but not just faith, just life in general, that the language that we had can either restrict us or it can open up doors into a new imagination, right? And so like, what are we trying to achieve? Where we're trying to go? And those questions, I think are really important. But also then what words are we using in order to to create that, you know, we talked about faith right now, right? There's a way to tell the Christian story that ends up just siding with, you know, systems of oppression and power, which actually just continues to marginalized people and continues to uphold the status quo. Well, there's a way of talking about it, and telling that story that brings freedom and liberation and, and centers love and centers, the voices of those who have been oppressed in heart. Right. So it's, I guess what we're talking about is how do we use our language and the words that that we speak, to transform our reality to change a reality to transcend?

Seth Price 1:14

Want to be honest, I'm really getting bad at these intros. I think they get shorter and shorter and shorter. And it's because I don't want to waste any time. I just want to jump right into these shows. But anyway, we're here. I'm Seth, this is the show. And yeah, let me tell you a bit about the guest. So today brought on AJ Hendry. Now, AJ lives in a city in New Zealand that I cannot pronounce. But he is doing some amazing work in and around like, homelessness and youth. And word like justice, and faith intersect. I love what he's doing. He's somebody that I've been watching from afar, for many, many years reading his work. And so I think you're going to enjoy this very, very much. So let's do it alright, here we go. Aaron Hendry, I've been reading the words that you write for many years now. I think it's three or four years now. And yeah, man, welcome to the show. For those listening. You and I are in different days as we record this, which is weird to say, that's, that's the thing. I'm used to shifting time zones. I'm not used to shifting dates actually went to your website earlier before I came down. And what's funny is it's it's like postmarked. And so I was reading an article that says it was posted on February 18. But it's not February 18. For me. Um, but anyway, welcome to the show, man. How are you?

A.J. Hendry 2:55

Yada? Yada? Yeah, I'm good. Thanks, man. Thanks. Thanks for having me on. It's great. Yeah, it's great to meet you in person. I've been listening to your show for a little while now. Yeah, yeah. I appreciate that person through the through a screen, right. Yeah, well, yeah.

Seth Price 3:08

Well come up to Virginia or all? Its New Zealand, right. I'll go down. Yeah, yeah. Why not? Just

A.J. Hendry 3:13

come to New Zealand breezy.

Unknown 3:14

How long does it take?

A.J. Hendry 3:18

I don't know from where you are. A long time,

Seth Price 3:21

I would imagine. So from California, I would assume is where most people fly from how long is that? Oh,

A.J. Hendry 3:26

you're testing me now? I think the last time because I got final in California. So I don't know if it's like an 18 hour trip. Stop anymore. Maybe less. I probably gotten that wrong, and people are gonna blow you up saying

Seth Price 3:36

that long. No one's gonna blow me up. But I don't know. You could be like, You could have said three days I wouldn't. I wouldn't know. The furthest I've ever flown is Thailand. So we left from LA X went to Tokyo and then gone to Thailand. And that that was a heck of a flight. That was a long way. So yeah, yeah. So who are you? What are you people are listening. They're like, alright, what are we doing here? Like, what would you want people to know about you?

A.J. Hendry 4:04

That's a big Christian. What do you start? What do you want to start? Yeah, I mean, I, I look, I guess in terms of the, the Mahi that I do, I'm a youth development worker at heart. I serve young people, and specifically rangatahi young people that sort of at the margins of society. Right now I lead a service that supports rangatahi that experiencing homelessness, eating people that are on the streets needing to be into housing. And I run a program that supports them into housing and gives the wraparound care and support once their house. But yeah, also, I guess I do a lot of writing and podcasting myself through that like sort of intersection between justice and faith and how those things sort of go together. But, you know, like, alongside that, that's sort of my work, but you know, I'm a father as well. I've got two beautiful little boys, a little three year old and a One year old who just you know, delights a lot of my life. And yeah, obviously an amazing wife who really helps me do everything that I do keeps my life in order and keeps me going. Really?

Seth Price 5:11

Yeah, my kids and my wife would agree. And she says it often, which is probably why my kids agree. She'll say things like, if you're, if I ever die, I'm gonna need you to teach your dad how to do this. Like because I know how to do a lot of things. None of them are, are adequately to take care of our kids like I, I would just, I don't know, I would screw up. I feel like have you seen the YouTube video of like a dead and he has his girl's hair in like the little vacuum. And then he slides a scrunchie up on it. He's like, there we go. Ponytail. It's done. That would be that would be me. So you said at the beginning to ask you if you said a word that I was like, I don't know what that word means. He said toffee. What is that?

A.J. Hendry 5:56

Oh, I see the rangatahi something like

Seth Price 5:59

that? I don't know. Yeah. That's young people. Okay. Yeah. And that is what that is.

A.J. Hendry 6:06

That is the term Audi word. So the Maori people, indigenous people that Tang fino are the people the land of Aotearoa, New Zealand. And so yeah, it is pretty common, that we use sort of different words, within our culture. It's excellent. I say, my, myself, I guess this grounding that, you know, I'm I'm Pakiya, which is to be like non marring. And also, like Tangata tivity. So wishes to be the people at the treaty. So I don't know if you know, much around Aotearoa New Zealand history, but we had a treaty signed in the 1800s. And so my ancestors, our place in Arturo and I'll place the New Zealand has come through the signing of that treaty where we came alongside Tofino and said, Hey, we're going to be two people working towards, you know, a better New Zealand, obviously, that didn't really go the way we wanted it to some real terrible stuff that happened through that. But you know, in terms of my role, and not at all, I'm not talking tensility, a three part.

Seth Price 7:06

Yeah, so that's similar than to United States in the way that we treated indigenous peoples and treaties. So we make it and then just break it. Is that is that interesting? I don't know. Very. I know. Yeah. effectively zero, about

A.J. Hendry 7:16

Yeah, it was complex. And it's, you know, one of the great things about having the treaty is we sort of have a baseline, we always come back to around, hey, where did we go wrong? But yeah, very, very early after the signing of turbidity. You know, there was a lot of abuses and crown abuses, you know, the Crown took land, you know, colonized the country. And really, it wasn't an equal partnership, as we've seen across the globe. And we're still dealing with all of that today, which I'm sure we'll get into if we start talking a little bit about the work.

Seth Price 7:47

Yeah, yeah. So you said that you work with homeless youth? So what does that look like, for you, or homelessness and youth? Maybe I'm putting words in your mouth? What does that look like on a day to day basis? Like, like, how did you get that? And what is that? Just for contrast?

A.J. Hendry 8:05

Yeah, I mean, how I got into this, and then, is a story in itself. But you know, like, we talked about, you know, people experiencing homelessness. So you know, that, you know, just to ground it, you know, young people themselves are not inherently homeless, they're experiencing this thing that is going on in their lives, which is messed up, it's wrong, and it doesn't have to be their way. So in my role, like our service supports, young people that, you know, for whatever reason, are experiencing homelessness, and a lot of this goes back to start talking about the tree before, Maori and RT at all, lost a whole lot of land, due to crown abuse abuses. And we're still dealing with the ramifications of that. So the group of people that I serve, the young people that come through my service, 80 to 90 90% of them attended a funeral, which isn't, you know, the indigenous people, which is a shocking percentage, considering, you know, considering the amount of, I guess, you know, the proportion to the population. And so, you know, a lot of that we can tie back to the land wars and the land grabs that occurred, you know, in the early 1800s. And, and I guess what the government had done at that point in time with the ground dead and what was continued. And so, you know, the work that we do really is around supporting the young people that are in that experience and trying to get them some sort of safe and stable housing, I lead a team of youth workers who provide like wraparound care and support. And we kind of run this program where we have, we work with, you know, private community housing providers, to provide sort of, you know, landlord management, and then my team provide the sort of youth work and support and the day to day figuring out life and learning how to navigate that system of being in a home and really the the key thing that which we're doing our CO Papa, oh, I guess grounding principles. What we're trying to, I guess work towards is to create a space of healing for young people where they can heal from what has occurred, what has happened to them, you know, One of the things we're talking about homelessness, it's often thought that a person is homeless because of something that they've done, that it's their fault, that they are the reason that they're in that situation yet, you know, when you take a wider view of what's going on, you know, most of the young people that we serve have been homeless their whole life. So they were born into an experience of homelessness. You know, I've sat with a young man who has told me Hey, like, from day one, I was uplifted from my family's home into the system, you know, spent his whole life in, in and out of, you know, residential facilities run by the government, and then released onto the streets. You know, that's like common experience. Whenever I talk to young people about how long have you experienced homelessness, most of them say like, it's just been my life. And so I guess what we're trying to do is intervene at an earlier stage. Because those people that you often see, I'm sure, it's probably similar in the States, but people you see on the street, they're just not a couple of people that made a couple of bad decisions. A lot of them would have been having those experiences at a very young age, we know that, you know, for at least not at all, those who have lived rough on the streets for a long period of time. First began that experience when they're young. And you know, there's a whole lot of trauma and harm that comes to a person through that.

Seth Price 11:09

I have many, you know, clients at the bank, that a worker, that that have experienced homelessness or other financial distress that leads right up to the brink of that. And yeah, I think you're right, like, I think the stats that we get at the bank, you know, there's like a Research Council that does work on that. And I think it's the average American like, doesn't have over $400 in the bank account, could not handle an emergency, like couldn't afford a tow truck without having to leverage some form of debt. Like, it's everybody is like one trip off the wrong curb and have to go to the hospital and ambulance away from possibly having to deal with homelessness, you know, for having the audacity to get sick, or, you know, a child gets sick or something like that. Yeah, the the lie that people inherently choose homelessness or did it to themselves, it's just capitalism. Does New Zealand have a similar issue with, with that mindset with capitalism? I don't know enough about the structure of New Zealand.

A.J. Hendry 12:11

Yeah, it's, it's really interesting. I've been I don't know if you know, Angela Davis, at all black feminist author and activist. Yeah, she's, she's so much different recommend her work. She's reading nano from from the States was involved in the Black Power movements, and the black liberation movement was imprisoned by the American government during that period of time. And, you know, she's been released since does amazing work. And, you know, there's a really great book, I think it's gender, race and class that she's written, you know, which is another sort of, but anyway, I bring it up in that, like, a lot of the narratives we'll be reading, you know, sort of her work recently, and a lot of the narratives that you have in the states are very similar to what we experienced here. So you know, there's an all of those you mentioned capitalism before, you know, all of those very tied to this neoliberal ideology that really shapes us into commodities as human beings, right? mean, you end up being seen and valued for what we produce. And there's another there's another author that I really appreciate. Bruce Rogers born, who speaks sort about the way that neoliberalism has, I guess, co opted us as human beings in a way that we you know, once again, the value is really centered in our commodity and what we can produce for a society. But he talks about this thing called the privatization of suffering. In that, you know, people's suffering, instead of seeing a collective sense of why a person has ended up in a situation then we sort of privatize that person's suffering and put it directly within Logic within the community. And so that, you know, let's take that example of a homeless young person, you know, that young persons experiencing homelessness, they end up being the person that's responsible you haven't worked hard enough you haven't, you know, done X y&z And you haven't gone and found yourself a home you haven't, you know, there must be some moral deficiency in you that you're in the situation. Now Never mind that that young person is dealing with, you know, generational trauma that their own family, we're experiencing homelessness and their own family has gone through some really intense and difficult things that they were removed from their home at a young age, regardless of any choices that they made were the state took responsibility of them, but never cared for them. And they were homeless through that whole experience and then they were just chucked out at the system onto our streets and without any support or real safety net to care for them. Never mind that actually in New Zealand if you're 1617 you can't get a tenancy you can't you know, find a house I have young people who tell me all the time I just need to work harder to get a house but you can't actually the system, the system is created you know, one of the words I use as in I try to move away from this talk around people being marginalized, you know, like marginalized communities. We've talked about that a lot. But you know, like what I'd prefer to say structurally marginalized. We've created a system and structure, which marginalizes people, which puts those people in that situation. And so when we think about this homeless young person, the system that we created the collective decisions we made about how we govern our society, what we prioritize what we will actually invest, and you know, where we, you know, put our resources, you know, has led us to a situation where we have children living on our streets, where we have, you know, growing inequality and poverty. Those are collective decisions we make. And it's not the fault of those individuals. But we have that narrative that, hey, you must, there must be something wrong with you, you must be lazy, you know why you're not working so hard? And we don't look back at that bigger picture of actually, what is going on in society? And how do we get to this point today?

Seth Price 15:45

Let me back up to this because the question won't make any sense if we don't have a little underlying subtext. So at the beginning, what 1516 minutes ago, you had said, you were kind of at the intersection of justice faith. And these what you said, the intersection of justice and faith and maybe faith in justice, it's either way, what is faith for you?

A.J. Hendry 16:06

Hmm, yeah, so I class myself as a follower of Jesus. You know, I see huge potential in, you know, the Christian faith and the narrative and the story that is embedded in there, once we read it from the taint of white supremacy, and, you know, colonization and capitalism. There's a story in there that that provides the groundwork for us to resist against, you know, why I would name as neoliberal ideology, against the hyper consumerism, individualism, of our western empire that we live in, right. And so, you know, the facts that I hold is, is one that is centered around this brown, indigenous activist, you know, that this man named Jesus who, who came into the world, in a world that was being colonized a world that was, I guess, oppressed where we had, you know, you know, one of the things we often don't see in the Christian story is that Jesus, you know, he didn't just become, you know, a human being, he became one of the most marginalized human beings in that world. At that time, it became a baby who was completely weak, who was completely helpless, he became a Jew, who was in that time in that space, being oppressed, and basically a second class citizen in their own land. And he became one of the poor, one of the outcasts of society, those who had no power, who had nothing. And this is what the divine says, the divine says that I've become one with those who have been marginalized, I become one with those who are poor with for those who suffer. You know, and that's the story that I really, that gives me strength and hope that actually hate the divine has become one with the pool, the Divine is on the side of liberation, that Divine is on the side of justice, that actually God does pick a side, and we who are called to follow Him must choose, you know, or he was the empire of power with capitalism with wealth, or we with Christ, yeah, who stands on the margins and causes us to follow. And for me, that's a real challenge. And that, you know, in my context, like I said, Before, I am Lottie Pakiya, I am normally my ancestors represent the Empire, my ancestors are responsible for the colonization of this funeral. You know, when I look at the suffering around me, I have a part to play in that I am, in a way I have benefited from that, and I continue to do so. And that Jesus calls and says, Come follow me. So what does that mean for me a pocket a man who, who has benefited from the suffering of my brothers and sisters, to join crust? What does it mean to stand in solidarity with him? One of the stories that really speaks to me that I really, that pulls me on, is that story about, about the rich young man that comes to Christ. And we've heard that story before. And it always gets, I guess, watered down to this point where, hey, we're looking at it. I guess often when we hear it, we think about how we can get out of giving up what we have, right? The way I see that story is, you know, Jesus, you know, once again, this man who was part of the marginalized class, who was poor, who was, you know, experiencing oppression and in poverty. He has this young man come up to him and say, Hey, how can I follow you? How can I inherit the kingdom of God, God, you know, and Jesus says, hey, Sal, all you have, and come and follow Me. And one of the things we miss here is that for that man to be, even though he was a Jew, for him to be wealthy, within that society, meant that he had been benefiting from the exploitative tax system that existed within that society that was basically oppressing Jesus and those who were with him on the margins, the poor. Yeah, so Jesus is saying change sides, you know, join in solidarity with me give up your status, your wealth, give up your power and your privilege, and join me here with the poor on the margins. And I think that's the core for for pocket for white Christians. To say actually, hey, how We change our state status, how do we join Christ on the margins of society? So I guess that's what I talked about that intersection of justice and faith that actually, you know, I believe the gospel is justice, it is about God. It's the good news that that the kingdom of God is coming here to Earth today. And then when we participate in that, that is the work of justice coming into this world.

Seth Price 20:23

Yeah. So are you familiar with a practice of Lectio? Divina? Is that a thing you're familiar with? Yeah, yeah. So that I have done that practice with that, that story of the of the rich and men. And every single time that I do it, and I kind of insert myself into the story. I always envisioned him looking over looking at Matthew and being like, but he didn't look, I don't know. I'm not as like, I can't do that. Like, I see what Matthew did. I had I want to do it. I can't do it. I don't want to do it. Because I think I see a lot of myself in that have Yeah, I'd like to say I can do that. And sometimes I do well, but it's a different kind of animal. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong in that maybe? I don't know. It just feels it just feels right for me. Just feels right. Do you remember like last year, I had all those weird ad breaks, like it would just randomly be something, we're not doing that. Instead, I thought I'd do this, I need your help. If you're able to head on over to the website for the show, there are two things that you can do. One is you head over the website, you click the Patreon button or support button, I forget what I call it. And you jump in there, those people help make the show a thing so that you can listen to it right now, to the easier one, you could just leave a rating and a review on the podcast app of choice that you currently use. Either one of those is fine. But I would love it if you would do either one, specifically the rating and reviewing it's an exponential thing, that the algorithms pick it up. And that's just math. It's just compounding on top of itself. Anyway, all that to say, that was it. That was the ad break. And now we're gonna get back into it. So you wrote something on Instagram the other day that I've been saving, specifically for tonight? Yeah, I don't remember when you wrote it, because I'm too lazy to figure it out, because I just took a screenshot. So it says if we want to create new worlds, we have to find new words. What are you creating? And what are some of those words?

A.J. Hendry 22:29

Yeah, I guess what I mean by that is, is we need to create a language which enables us to live out of it, you know. And so one of the things that I you know, if we talk about faith, but not just faith, just life in general, that the language that we had can even restrict us or it can open up doors into a new imagination. Right? And so like, what are we trying to achieve? Where we're trying to go? And those questions, I think are really important. But also then what words are we using in order to to create that, you know, we talked about faith right now, right? There's a way to tell the Christian story that ends up just siding with, you know, systems of oppression and power, which actually just continues to marginalize people and continues to uphold the status quo. Well, there's a way of talking about it, and telling that story that brings freedom and liberation and, and centers love and centers, the voices of those who have been oppressed and hot. Right. So it's, I guess what we're talking about is how do we use our language and the words that that we speak, to transform our reality to change our reality transcend?

Seth Price 23:29

A few days ago, the 15th? I don't know if it's my 15th year 15th. I think it's all the same 15th Eventually, New Zealand band conversion therapy. Correct. That's that's the thing that happened that made the news here as well, like, that's, that's a thing. Well, yeah. I mean, it's, it's a big thing. I feel like there was another country as well recently that has done that as well, maybe I'm wrong. But how does that sit with the faith community in New Zealand? Because I can see how that would sit. I don't even actually see how that would ever make it to the Senate or congressional floor here in the United States. But how does that sit with the faith bodies in New Zealand, something like that, because I think so much of the church is wrapped up in fear mongering and other ring around people's gender and sexuality when that's not even the point of the gospel. But like, how does that sit there?

A.J. Hendry 24:22

Yeah, actually read a piece on that's just recently if you like, but it's fairly. I mean, it's diverse. Right. You know, I think there was definitely a lot of fear in the lead up the campaign within some aspects of the Christian community. Yeah, we saw St. Really interesting and that there was a huge number of, you know, churches and Christian organizations that came out in support of the band, you know, to the bank, the bill to ban conversion therapy. There was also you know, leaders on both sides, both conservative and liberal, progressive there were in support of the ban. There was Some debates around some of the wording and the way things should go. But there was a lot of support for the banning conversion therapy overall. And there's definitely still, you know, in the store a good segment of the Christian community that I think would be really challenged by that and are really struggling with it. But I guess we've got a little bit of attention with his, you know, different voices within, you know, our faith spaces, who are, who are sort of leaning in different ways. But I think it's really positive and that the doorway through these things opens up to further conversation, you know, how do we actually then talk about this in a way that brings us forward to a more life giving a life of filling space, and something that I found really interesting about? I think it's about four years ago, where I sort of wrote my first article, you know, talking about what I believe to be a flaw within the Christian community around the harm that has been caused our rainbow or queer foreigner. And I've been more public about that, since, you know, I've also sort of delivered training sort of talking about how do we have this conversation in the church to move people along on the journey. But one of the things I found really interesting is that more and more, I am noticing that there is a growing amount of people and I don't know if it's the same in the States, but there's a growing enough people here not to anyway, that are becoming more more uncomfortable with the harm that has been caused queer people, and understanding that something within our theology is not quite right. You know, they may not have it, or they might still be fairly conservative, they may still have the conservative theology, but there's a sense in a growing that actually, maybe something's wrong, and the way that we are thinking about this, and the way that we are practicing this, and as I emphasized the change. And so yeah, there's still a lot of work to do to really shift that. But you know, I think that's a positive place to start.

Seth Price 26:43

Yeah, I am, I had a guest, and the episode hasn't aired, although it probably will have by the time this is out. And she says I had asked her kind of similar question, but but not quite the same way. And I think what she said was, she thinks that many youth in the in the faith communities and not just in the Christian church, and many faith communities are, regardless of their views, feel like something is wrong, when their friends that they're in community with who happened to be gay, or LGBTQ, or whatever word you want to put on there aren't welcome. And they're basically like, I, I believe in something but I can't come and be a part of this. Because you, you aren't like, the people that I care about. You don't care about it. They don't seem to matter to you. You say they do, but but they don't actually seem to matter to you. That sounds very similar to what you're saying. How do you lead those conversations? Like you said, you you've done some some talks and whatnot, like, how do you even begin to do something like that?

A.J. Hendry 27:47

I, you know, for me, I think it's about staying where people are, you know, we've got a really Yeah, I guess maybe the ground listen in what it means to be an ally, you know, also, you know, in to be in solidarity with people, especially for people who are coming from outside of that community that has been oppressed, is that sometimes I guess it was maybe a critique to the party or to white peoples that we can take on all the harm the anger, and almost, you know, the frustration, and we just yell at people that aren't where we are. And we forget that we went on a journey, you know, so I came from a fairly conservative Phantom, you know, really loved people, but how to really consider the theology. And I had to go through a journey. And how did I get there, I had people who were patient with me, who had conversations, who challenged me in spaces who shared this story, who didn't exclude shame, or, you know, condemn me, but actually, all with me through a journey. And often we, you know, when we, when we take our steps on that journey, we forget that we had to take those steps, right. So for me, it's about everything I do, I have this phrase lovers, the way that sort of like grounds me in my advocacy in my work, that love is the path that we should walk. And that actually, you know, when we're trying to wrestle against these big issues and challenges and systems and narratives that are causing harm to people, we still got to see the humanity of the person who stands in front of us, even that person that we believe holds theology, or worldviews or politics that are extremely harmful, they store human being, and that idea that they may hold that it's harming someone else, is very often harming them as well. You know, there's whole narratives of, you know, homophobia, and what white supremacy, all that, that that harms us, you know, we can't truly be human with the meaning and degrading someone else. So the place to start is with love, you know, to see the humanity of another, and then to engage them where they are. And so I'll start a very different conversation with someone who's never had this conversation, then I'll start with someone who's maybe had this a few other times, like what is their concerns? What are the things the narratives that they're bringing up and addressing those narratives, and then talking them through exploring the logic of them, you know, drawing on our collective values, and trying to engage a conversation rather than just throwing stones. If that makes sense?

Seth Price 30:00

Yeah, we can't truly be human, if what we're doing is not loving other people. I like that. That's, that's, that's, that's powerful.

A.J. Hendry 30:10

One of the things I've learned from what I've learned a lot, from really a lot of people, color activists, theologians, you know, people like, you know, model f king, yes, but name a ticket and if you know him, but he was a liberation theologian and Palestine, you know, so, you know, a community that are oppressed on every end, you know, hated by the Christians in America, and the West in general, hated by, you know, Muslims hated by their own brothers and sisters, let his, you know, learnt to love through that one of the things he talks about in his, you know, resistance against, you know, their Israeli state, and their oppression that they experienced at the hands of Israel was to actually see the humanity of those people say, Yes, we're going to actively non violently resist it, we're gonna do it in love, we are not going to hate these people, because we actually recognize that they need to be liberated from this hatred that they have of us that, hey, we may be physically oppressed, but they are spiritually mentally oppressed as well. And so the act of resistance, the act of, you know, advocacy, and rebellion against these narratives is also in the hopes that we can redeem and restore those who uphold those narratives who uphold the systems of oppression back into their full humanity also,

Seth Price 31:23

yeah, who are so for your website when lambs are silent? When lambs are silent? That's how you say that word. Whoo, who were the lamps? And then, yeah, who were the lamps?

A.J. Hendry 31:37

Yeah. I named this so long ago. And I do get people ask that question. I use that a lot. That imagery I was thinking about was that when, you know, those who are in a position of runnability, or have been marginally, you know, structurally marginalized in our society, those who, you know, in one sense are innocent of the oppression that they're experiencing are silenced. You know, that's when, you know, evil prevails in our society, when those voices aren't elevated when those voices aren't heard. That is when you know, we lose our way. So, you know, when I was assigned, that really came from my frustration that at the time, the general narratives in our society were being set by people who were just completely removed from the suffering of our people, you know, like, wealthy, white men who had huge platform, because of, you know, the way that things are structured, and who were trying to tell us all what it meant to be poor, and why people were poor, and why people were suffering, and that it was just their lack of personal responsibility and their lack of morals. And I wanted to try to create a space where we could start to chair challenge that narrative and start to provide opportunities for other voices to be heard. So you know, I do a lot of writing on it. But I'm always trying to find an open space for others to have the, you know, those those those voices and stories to be elevated.

Seth Price 33:01

Is it just you because it like you like post, like every two or three days? Is it just you or is there like a team there?

A.J. Hendry 33:08

Just me that runs it. But you know, I reached out to people I tried to get people writing, and do that sort of thing. But yeah, just myself that sort of got off the ground. That's a lot.

Seth Price 33:17

That's a lot of it's a lot of work. I know how quickly a hobby can become work. That's a lot of work. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So a couple final questions, I want to give you back to your family. What are one or two things that you feel like need to be focused on and allowed to be discussed in faith communities? And if not, there's not really a point of having them.

A.J. Hendry 33:45

Awesome. By Christian, I mean, we could go a lot of ways. Look, and I know that there's this though, people will be in different spaces. I don't know where you sit with this, bro. But, you know, like, one of the things that I think we really need to be examining is, is the way that, you know, I believe that faith has very much been co opted by a neoliberal ideology, right? We see it ourselves and in these in a lot of ways where, you know, the Christian church, rather than being communities of resistance that can push back against some of these dominant narratives that are in our society, they end up just sort of supporting the status quo. You know, you talked about sort of that individuality, individual responsibility that I mean, even yourself mentioned that you feel like what can I do? Now? Even that is a neoliberal idea, this idea of individuals needing to get involved and make change. We're actually faith with the Christian faith is about a community. It's about people. And I think the story of Christianity once again, has this opportunity to offer resistance in that, you know, the, the idea of the churches to be this alternative community in the heart of the Empire. So what their conversation I think we need to be asking ourselves What does it mean to be this alternative community? What does it mean to be a community that that lives as us that divine dream? Where reality today? You know, how do we restructure our communities, so that we can realize that dream, you know, and in my vision of the Divine dream, when I look at the way that Christ loved, and walked and taught, is that it's a world with poverty doesn't exist, where homelessness isn't a thing, we actually care for people on planet, we put that at the center of what we do. It's not just about going to church and having an individualized sermon, individualized message, and then going back and trying to individually apply it to ourselves and to our communities and you know, go to work and then come back to but how do we form communities of resistance? How do we form a community centered on love for people and planet that actually bring healing and restoration and hope? You know, that's a big question of the big conversation. We need to start start racing, what

Seth Price 35:49

I like, I like big questions, and I wanted to find a neoliberalism, Nero, oh, my god, Neo liberalism for those and you can correct me if I'm wrong in this, it's been a long time since I was at school, and studied that, and it is not what I do now. So neoliberalism is like a reduction in government spending and like deregulation, right? Like free market capitalism, deregulate everything, the free market will figure it out, like trickle down economics, that kind of stuff. But what's funny is if if my definition is right, economies and governments built on neoliberalism apparently do not believe in not spending more on the military, and defense spending just on everything else. Maybe I'm wrong, that is neoliberalism, correct? Because I wanted to kind of Yeah, I

A.J. Hendry 36:36

think one of the one of the aspects of neoliberalism and once again, Angela Davis writes a lot about this. I mentioned the book, Bruce Rogers Bourne talks about neoliberalism and the key if assault, and really argues that actually, neoliberalism is more than about economics, it's become a culture and ideology, which has permeated the globe. And when we look at a lot of those narratives, there's narratives about, you know, a colorblind society around personal responsibility about, you know, meritocracy, that you know, that we all just need to work out, and we'll get hit. Those are all part and parcel with, you know, neoliberal ideology, and all sort of comes in and under that. And I think learning to name that is hard, because, you know, because of the depths of some of those stories that we've been told about our society and culture, what it means to be human, it does, it does take a bit to try to name those stories, and then figure out how do we resist and push back

Seth Price 37:32

on them? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there are actually other things that people want to do the Googles. So there are other options, so you can read about socialism. You could talk about Keynesianism. And we're not going to talk about this because this is primarily a theological podcast. But although Keynesianism, I could have a conversation on that, because it's an economic system. And that's what I do for a living. But anyway, when you, Erin, try to wrap words around the divine. What is that?

A.J. Hendry 38:04

The simplest, simplest way I say is like the Divine is love, you know, that love is Who and What God is. And that love is experienced in the world through, you know, our connections with one another, but also a powerful force that is working towards justice and liberation across the globe.

Seth Price 38:25

Where do you want people to go? And do the things is, as it is related to what you're doing? On the internet? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we're not on the internet, maybe there. Who knows? Like, go wherever they want to go?

A.J. Hendry 38:41

Yeah, I mean, follow me on my lambs are solid. Both Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, as well. Got a podcast also, sort of talk about some of the stuff. And then I have sort of my personal Instagram and Facebook page, which is AJ Hendry. Writer, I think.

Seth Price 38:58

Yeah. He said, I think I don't even know what the name is. Maybe it has writer maybe, maybe it doesn't. Man, I appreciate you making time to make this work. I know, this was, um, I know, it was hard to find the time to make work. I appreciate you

A.J. Hendry 39:11

know, thanks for having me on. It's great to watch it.

Seth Price 39:21

Now, I haven't added it up. But there are hundreds of 1000s if not millions of podcasts on the internet, and I am humbled that you continue to download this one. If this is your first time here. Please know that there are transcripts of these shows. Not always in real time, but I do my best. And if you go back in the logs, you can find transcripts for pretty much any episode that you'd like. The show is recorded and edited by me, but it is produced by the patron supporters of the show. That is one of the best, if not the best way that you can support the show. If you get anything at all out of these episodes, if you think on them, or if you you know, you're out and about and you tell your friends about it or..hey, mom, dad, brother, sister, friend, boss, pastor, here's what I heard, what are your thoughts on that? If this is helping you in any way, and it is helping me, consider supporting the show in that manner. It is extremely inexpensive, but collectively, it is so very much helpful.

Now for you. I pray that you are blessed, and you know that you're cherished and beloved. We'll talk soon.