Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening and is transcribed from Patreon version of the conversation. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Seth Price 0:08

What is a solar? Anyway? Right? Isn't it a day on the planet Mars? That's what Mark Watney taught me on the movie. That's not what it is. I can't remember what it is. I'm rambling. This is the can I say this at church podcast, I am Seth, your host. And I am thankful that you downloaded this show and this episode of this show, of all the other millions of podcasts in the internet. And I appreciate you very much so. So my friend Keith Giles wrote a book called solar mysterium. It was not what I expected. I don't know what I expected. But as I read through it, one, I really really enjoyed it, like a lot enjoyed it. I have both the digital copy and then I have the paper copy because I really enjoyed it. And I really enjoyed this conversation. There was not a thing that I could snip out, like I normally do and put at the beginning of the episode, because there's a lot here. There's a lot in the book. And so hold in your mind, solo mysterium and wonder yourself, what the heck is that? And hold that intention as you come into the episode because I think it's going to be helpful in you and eyes headspace. And so with that, let's pivot right into the episode with Keith Giles.

The Keith Giles I don't know if you saw that in the invite for the Zoom link. That is the title of the Zoom link that I sent was the Keith Giles is joining the show. Yeah. Because when you put the in front of it, it makes it a big thing, right. Like the Ohio State University, you know, right. Yeah. Either way. I don't remember how many times you've been on the show. We said it before I was recording more than three less than six. So let's call it let's call it whatever. Yeah, you almost get a free kids meal or something.

Keith 2:32

I get a three something. bumper stickers. Yeah,

Seth Price 2:35

I will. I will print stickers and I will mail you one. You'll have the only one I'll. Anyway, in all seriousness, welcome back to the show, man. Glad to have you here.

Keith 2:47

I always look forward to talking to you. So thank you so much. It's always a lot of fun.

Seth Price 2:51

It is. Yeah. Yeah. I did not know that. We were bringing drinks. So next time. I'll do better. I will do better next time.

Keith 2:58

I mean, I don't know. Am I allowed to drink this on camera? You can?

Seth Price 3:02

Totally. It's

Keith 3:04

my old fashion. Yeah,

Seth Price 3:05

I would hate to have it get get weak on you as it melts.

Keith 3:08

Yeah, that's true. Well, I have a pretty large ice cube in there. But yes, it will melt slowly. I had I just thought disclosure, I have one of these almost every night. But before you tell me before I go to bed. And believe it or not. This is actually we did the research. You can look it up. I encourage your listeners to look it up. It's good for if you have high blood pressure. Apparently some whiskey is good for that. So

Seth Price 3:34

So I have one I enjoy the whiskey. I am I'm not opposed to the whiskey. I I mean, we we established that I recognized your drink from its brief stint. I'm not opposed to the whiskey. Anyway, what's been new man? It's been it's been Gosh, it's probably been over a year since you were on the show. So what is new for you?

Keith 3:53

Oh, man, over the last year, I don't know what's super new, I will go on and give you a it may not be much of a scoop because he doesn't we were also saying before we hit record, we're not sure when this is between the time of recording this and when that will come out. But I think I'm safe to to tell at least use something that you probably don't know. And it may or may not be the first time your listeners have heard of it. But what's new for me in the last six months or eight months is that Matthew DiStefano and myself will will become the new co owners acquire publishing very soon. That's at least as of January of 2023. So we are gearing up for all that and you're getting ready to take it to the next level.

Seth Price 4:42

That's a lot. So that's all that's a lot. I don't know anything about publishing anything. I sometimes think I could write something and that's even intimidating. Which is funny when you just breathe out books. It appears when I look at how quickly you write books. That's a big deal. What makes you want to buy Hey, book publishing company. I don't know if buys the word acquire, assuming Yeah,

Keith 5:05

it's not really it's not sure how much I can divulge. But it's essentially that Raphael Belinda who started choir five years ago, it's just grown to the point that he has a day job that isn't choir, you know, he has, he doesn't live with his family. He just had his second child a few months ago. He's really busy with his day job, and really felt like he was kind of holding back choir, the choir could could really be doing way more, but he's just not able, it doesn't have the bandwidth. So he approached Matt and I and said, If we asked if we'd be interested in and taking it over, and we both like, yes, yes, we will do that. So we will be there will be the new co owners of choir. And that's cool already slowly behind the scenes, you know, sort of learning the ropes of all this stuff. So yeah, it's kind of odd. Because when I started off self publishing my books, I was so excited to get a publisher to be working with choir. And now in a weird way, I'm back to self publishing, because now the publishing company, but I know a lot more than I used to know.

Seth Price 6:12

Yeah, we're just even in like, when I think back in the history of the show, some of the first guests were people from choir. Four or five, seven years ago, however many years it was. So it's been fun to watch choir grow as well. I don't read all the books, nor do I agree with everything that comes out of all of the books. But that's that's okay. Is it's okay. But that's cool, man. That's excellent. Yeah. And so you're back in Texas. And so that's really all that matters, right? And then, yeah, yeah. What else is new? You've written probably 27 More books since the last time we spoke because you finished your Jesus on series. And I think yeah, I don't remember the last that would have been the last time you were on.

Keith 6:50

Yeah. Jesus on armed was the seventh and final book in that series. Yeah. And then then I just wrote the book we're going to talk about so mysterium. And I'm kind of in place at the moment where I'm working on several things, but but I think for the first time in five years, I honestly do not know what my next books going to be. Sure. I mean, I'm working on a series of articles that I'm doing every every week, through this thing called inner circle on patios. And that's a subscription only thing. So every week I write a commentary, an article on one of the things of Jesus from the Gospel of Thomas, which will eventually be a book. I have an idea for a fiction novel that I've been wanting to write for a while, that that might be my next book. I don't know. And then I'm actually even deciding that I think I might turn solo mysterium into at least possibly a trilogy, there might be a second

Seth Price 7:48

help yourself.

Keith 7:53

Well, yeah, I mean, I've always got to be doing something you don't I mean, I gotta be writing. I've always said this, even if you're a writer writers right. Now, a lot of people that say I'm a writer, but then they don't. They don't blog and a journal. They don't, you know, you don't have to publish something, but you have to at least be writing. So for me, yeah, I've always got to be busy writing something. And hopefully, eventually, some of those things turned into a book that wrote so yeah,

Seth Price 8:19

so in the Salah. mysterium is the name of the book that you you. I think it was June, May, May, June, July. I'm way behind because again,

Keith 8:28

at the end of June or Yeah, June 28. Silica.

Seth Price 8:32

Yeah, I just decided to take a summer break. And so I'm definitely way behind. So we've missed the book launch and that's my fault. It's okay. So, in the in the order of the six soloists were to solo mysterium fit in there, you know, because we got sola scriptura, sola, I don't remember all the solos. And for those that aren't paying attention, they're not six solos. So it's fine. Whatever. Yeah. So what should be the defining order there? And where does mysterium kind of fit in?

Keith 9:00

It kind of? That's an interesting question. Because like, when Luther came up with this five solos, solo mysterium was not one of them. So I'm sort of creating my own, my new kind of thing, like I feel like, at least for myself at this point of where I'm at, in my own kind of spiritual journey. So mysterium is kind of one of my personal solos, where I feel like and, and so what that would mean solo mysterium is reference to only mystery. I know I want you to see also that the Latin is wrong, that the title as David Bentley Hart is one of my heroes in the faith, one of my favorite New Testament scholars, and when I sent him the book, an advanced copy of the book, he let me know in no uncertain terms that solo mysterium and this is a quote he said, it's gibberish. It doesn't that you can't say that it's it's it gave me this long reason why And he suggested to other two other ways of saying it that were more accurate in Latin. But I determined, I just basically decided that most of my readers don't speak Latin. Correct. And I really liked solo mysterium as a title.

Seth Price 10:15

And it's my book. So let's go with that book. So tough.

Keith 10:18

This, that's the title. So yeah, it's meant to call attention to the SOLAS as you as you pointed out. And I just feel like if we're going to talk about theology, and I say this early in the book, this is kind of the kind of the thesis of the book. Anytime we're talking about the ology, I think we have to be honest and humble, and admit that the odds if the ology is the discussion of God, then and if God is by definition of being beyond human comprehension, we can then turn around and say, no, let me tell you all about God. Yeah. Because, well, you just said God is being beyond human comprehension. So I'm trying to take it back to like, a different posture. Like I think a better way to approach God. And theology is more from a place of mystery. And we can get into this too, but I also suggest a different way to approach the idea of knowing God. Yeah. Which is not, which is not through information.

Seth Price 11:17

Yeah. Well, so my so the first thing that I highlighted in the book, and I want to be clear, so the poems that are spread out throughout the book, those are you right, like I've never read, I've never read.

Keith 11:28

Yeah, yeah, there's two poems sort of in the book that I wrote this.

Seth Price 11:31

Yeah. So the one that begins the book. I'm curious, because I want to rip apart a specific stanza, because it's an overall it's an apophatic app of I don't know how to say that word. I think I said it right. This late at night. There's, you're not the one drinking? Yeah, I think that's how you say that word apophatic poem, which is a fancy word, and I'm gonna let people google it. Because I don't feel like explaining it. You can, if you want by just don't feel like it. But was that poem written? After the entire corpus of the book? Or did you write that, like, years ago, and it was something that kind of led into this? Because, you know, we need to talk about God entirely differently?

Keith 12:11

Yes, I wrote it. chronologically. I think I wrote it before. Well, at least before I finished writing the book, I may have been I may have started writing the book. Yeah, the poem just kind of came to me, and I think actually, it was it. That poem was a blog post. In the form that it's in, I might have tweaked it slightly by the time I got it into the, into the book. But yeah, it kind of came. I would say before, or at least during writing the book.

Seth Price 12:44

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to edit your stanzas. Because there there are five lines that to me, are, are the overall theme of the poem. So there is a mystery that seeks to confound you, when you speak of all you know of God, which is nothing. You speak more of yourself, then God. And it's that next to last line that you speak more of yourself? Like, can you rip that part apart?

Keith 13:08

Yeah. Well, because what we end up saying about God often is really more of a reflection of who we are and where we are. Then it is honestly saying anything that we know, with any sort of certainty about God. You know, there's a, there's a quote, I mean, St. Augustine said something he was like, and I quote this in the book, you know, if you understand that, it isn't God. It made something. But that isn't what that isn't God. And so he I think that's kind of where I'm going with that. With that statement. Yeah.

Seth Price 13:49

Yeah. Um, so I'm going to skip around Keith, and I should have asked you at the time but the books already out so I can quote your book to you because someone else already Yes, yes. Yeah. So there is a part in the intro, actually, which I don't know if that is the intro. I can't remember the intro is you or if that is

Keith 14:09

forward, this forward is Steve McVeigh. That's it. And then everything else after that is me.

Seth Price 14:14

Yeah. So you say to experience God is to become acquainted with all and then later on in chapter two, in rethinking how we know, you quote, John seven, teen three, I think it's John 17. It could be five, it could be three, I don't have the scripture verse written down. But I like the book of John. So 17 Three, yeah. That as that to know, is being a different know than the word that we use for No, and that is an awful sentence, especially when I know I'm going to transcribe this later. And I'm not going to know where to put the commas. But what is the difference between knowledge and experience and its relationship with all because I don't think that we think about those words in the same way that you're treating them in your Oh, yeah,

Keith 15:01

yeah. Well, well, I guess I'll address specifically the the question about John 17. Three. And again, that happens early on in the book, because this is establishing some things I really want to you know, make clear. So a paradigm shift, basically the that I'm working on in the book. And that is this idea of what Jesus says in John 17. Three, quite often, you and I've talked about things like this quite often in the past, that are English translations that most of us have on our shelf, or that we, you know, we go to, and we're trying to understand, you know, theology and God and things like that. Don't sometimes don't do us a lot of favors. So because Greek and Hebrew are much more nuanced languages, you know, and then when you translate it into English, a lot of times you you're losing the the depth of the meaning of the word. And so it's not incorrect, to read an English translation where Jesus says in John 17, three, eternal life is this to know God and His Son, whom he has said, The problem is, in English, if you just say, you know, if you read that, and you say, Oh, well, then eternal life is to know God. In our modern evangelical Christian, you know, the way we at least I was raised, knowing God is about having the right information about God, it's it's we read it as if that's what Jesus means. That Okay, well, it's very important now that I know, the right information about God that I know. You know, the details, the data, I can pass this theological quiz. And, and that's actually been my experience growing up in Christianity, it was very much my experience that that in Christianity that that's, that was the most important thing, I had to get my theology, right. I had to have all the right information, the right doctrines, et cetera. But that is not, that is not at all what Jesus means there. So in the Greek, there's sort of two words, two main words that Jesus could have used there. If he meant what I just said, this idea of knowing God through having the right information, this sort of head knowledge of God, if that's what he meant, knowing God like that, which I think most of us assume, then he would have used in the Greek and within the Greek, if you go to that, that text, it would have said, epistemic epistemology is having the right information. But that is not the word he uses. He uses a very scandalous word. Frankly, I think it's a very shocking word, if you really do understand the Greek because what he says is that we should get no scope, God and His Son, and going osko is the is the same word you would use if you were going to talk about how a husband, you know, a man on his wedding night, God knows God had he knew his wife, and she conceived a child. That's the conozco. That's the word he uses for to know God and His Son. So that is not information. That that is the absolute, you know, totally different direction from that. So if we can understand like, it should be a breathtaking, scandalous, shocking, like, whoa, what Jesus is saying that eternal life is to know God and denote Jesus with this level of intimacy. That's similar to what a two way husband knows his wife, so that it would concede new life within you that now that's a pretty amazing thing. And I think that is sort of some of the things we've missed, when it comes to us talking about and thinking about our relationship with God. And so that's, that's where I'm coming from on this idea of like this, I think we need to shift our way of thinking when we when we think about knowing God, I think we should be talking about in those terms, knowing God and knowing Christ in this deeply intimate, experiential way. And for me, that's when it gets to this idea of all where it becomes like, Man, I can't believe I am being invited into a connection with the Creator of the universe that is that deep, that intimate, that personal. And then that has that goal, that the goal of it is this sort of the conceiving of a new life within me a transformational process. So I said this before, you know, it's not that the gospel is not about information. It's about transformation. Yeah, that's one of the key things that I want us to understand in this book.

Seth Price 19:35

Yeah, that's also that's also a part that I highlighted in yellow, electronically highlighted, highlighted nonetheless. So thinking about all right, I don't want to frame this because it's going to feel like a tongue in cheek passive aggressive smartass remark like just thanks for letting me know that. Yeah, yeah. But I don't know how else ask it. So thinking about God in that manner, or Christ in that manner. For what purpose should dogma or belief, and by belief, I mean, what you think you understand about God, because it's true to you, you know, deeply true to you, based on paying attention to details to the Divine, in the same way that you would pay attention to details to someone that you deeply love. Like, what purpose does dogma hold, or for that matter, telling anybody about it? Because I think the way that we love people in the culture that we live in now is that is like, that happens in my four walls? And what happens with me and my wife is none of anyone's business. I don't know. Hopefully, that question makes sense. Because that's like, what is the purpose of of any doctrine or dogma with that view? of the Divine?

Keith 20:49

Well, no, I think it's a good question. I guess what I'm what I'm trying to say is that yes, there are there are these sort of two things. There's orthodoxy, which is your those doctrines and beliefs and things you think you know about God? Who your best guess, right? Although, again, I'm urging people on the book to to acknowledge that it's their best guess that you don't have certainty about those things you believe you believe you think you hope? Yes. But you can't, you can't say you're certain about any of those things. But that's okay. We all have beliefs. And we all you know, we all have our, our doctrines and the things that we hold on to. And so of course, we have those things. That will be our orthodoxy. I think, though, what Jesus emphasizes more is the orthopraxy of those, those core sort of beliefs about who God is, and what God is like, and then how we interact with God. So in your, in your analogy, yeah. The, the mechanics and the, the, the actual activity of you and your wife, having these kind of connections and emotional, you know, intimacy. Have happens in private, that's between you and your spouse, and the same for me and my wife. But at the same time, it's not as if when we're out in public, you don't notice that we love each other, you're gonna mean, like, kids and into the depth and degree that we're there is that debt, that depth and that intimacy and that sincere genuine love and respect we have for one another, that will be reflected when we go out in public. Right? It won't be, you know, are they together? Are they married? I know what I mean, you would you pick up on at least, the reality of that relationship and that connection, right. So I think it's late again, just for at least for myself. That's why I think the orthopraxy is so important. And I would like for us to maybe turn the weight back towards the emphasis on the orthopraxy side of it. less so than the the belief side of it. And again, I feel like this is something Jesus does this all the time. And I feel like Paul does this, like this is, this is New Testament, you know, teaching here that I'm what I'm saying, like, Jesus, one of my favorite, one of my other favorite passages in John is when Jesus washes his disciples feed. And then he says, Do you understand what I've done for you, you know that I am your man, and you call me Master and Lord, yep, that's who I am. But yet I have humbled myself, and I've taken the form of a servant, and I've washed your feet. And so you should do the same for one another, you also should humble yourself, and watch one another's feet. And then he ends it with this, to me, the most powerful statement, one of the most powerful statements Jesus ever says. And he says, Now that you know these things, in that case, he does use epistemic now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them. And I think I spent so much of my own spiritual life growing up, believing that I was blessed if I knew it, that knowing it, the epitome having the having the head knowledge and having the doctrines, having the theology, that if I had all that, that's how I'm blessed. And Jesus says, No, you're blessed when you put those things, you know, into practice, you're living those things out in a real, actual way. And I think that, that starts with this intimacy that we have with God and with Christ on this deeply personal level, that that is something very real for us. And so I say also in the book, that it's closer, so I think we should, I think the goal is that we should become people who are less capable of explaining and describing and defining that, that awareness of God and that knowing of God, but we are more than capable of experiencing them. And again, that that's where I want. That's where I'd like us to go or at least not when I'm trying to do my own life. But in the book, I'm trying to encourage others to kind of also see that and begin moving also in a similar direction.

Seth Price 25:09

Yeah. So chapter four, made me deeply uncomfortable. And I still don't know why I think it's because of the type of like church I was raised in. Because you talk a lot about prayer. In chapter four, you begin with a story about, you know, you were basically the way that I read that. Do this sniper story that you had there is it reminded me of those Facebook ads that says, hey, stop real quick and try to shoot this robber. And you never can? Because you have to download the app instead? To do it, you know? Yeah. Like all of chapter four, like, like, praying in tongues, I believe is in chapter four, or speaking in tongues, or however, like, all of that I'm uncomfortable with. And I don't actually know why. It's a me thing. But what am I to do with? With chapter four? Like that is quite literally what I wrote down, it might My question actually says, chapter four, holy cow, Can I be honest, what am I supposed to do with this? Like? That is my question that I wrote down that I wanted to ask.

Keith 26:13

When, wow, that's funny, because there's, there's there's a lot in chapter four. So you're right. I think the majority of chapter four really is a series of personal stories of myself.

Seth Price 26:26

Yes, wave after wave. And to be clear, I read that while my daughter was doing gymnastics, and so I'm reading it on my I think I had my computer and reading through it, you know, while they're doing their thing, and it literally kept shutting it like I can't read anymore, because like, I just I don't know why. I just may I bet I know. That's a me thing, because other people tell stories like that. Sure. Maybe it's because I feel like I know you better than I probably do. But like, I don't know, I like I genuinely don't know what to do with that.

Keith 26:53

Right? Well, I mean, let me ask you it, does it? Does it bother you that I'm having these experiences? Are you reading with a level of skepticism like, Oh, come on?

Seth Price 27:02

No, no, not skepticism, more. Like, I've never experienced anything like that. Like, like, if I was to try to explain to you, and I'm not going to equate the two. But this is just the only experience that I can come up with off top of my head. Like, I like where I live is beautiful, in a weird way. And like, I can't describe a sunrise specifically because it's always foggy. And I live on a mountain. And so you literally drive through a golden fog almost every morning. But the colors change. And sometimes there's rainbows in front of you as you're driving. But I also but that doesn't do it justice. But that doesn't make it any less true. And like, and that was my experience, but I would never be able to write it down. But to hear someone else that would go Oh, that's cool. But they haven't experienced it. And so I'd never experienced prayer, or God really in this manner. And so I think that's why I'm so uneasy with it for the same reason that like I think someone that is terrified of not terrified, that doesn't understand how big holes can be when they show up to the Grand Canyon. And they're like, Wow, this is a big deal. I didn't know they did this. I've only seen I didn't know that the Earth did this. I read about it, but it didn't you know what I mean? So I think that's why I'm on. Like, it's just so foreign to the way that I experience. Right, God.

Keith 28:22

Right. And then you know, so I think part of what I a couple of reasons why I put so many of those, like you said one after the other kind of personal stories like that in the book, too, was two reasons. One, honestly my windy, read the first draft of the book and said, because it was just all like, you know, me make me making comments on scriptures and quoting other people and kind of all up in my head kind of explaining stuff. And she said, No, you need more personal stories in this, you people need to know that you've experienced the stuff you're talking about. And so it was like, okay, so okay, I went back. And I That's why in chapter four, I just kind of shared several different stories that that are things I've experienced. And that's not even all of them to be honest. But but those are the probably some of the more significant ones. So that was part of the reason. But the other reason is I wanted people to maybe maybe even pro like you and people like yourself, because because I've learned over the years it took me Well, I'm sorry to say it took me a while to figure this out. Not everybody has had these kinds of experiences that I had that I've had, for the longest time, I just assumed, oh, yeah, you know, Christians, we have these kinds of things all the time. You know, I had this happen to me, and you tell me what happened to you? And we're like, wow, not cool. But, you know, it took magnitude during our house church experience. You know, there were people that are part of our group that would just say like, yep, God, I don't feel like God's ever talked to you like that, or I've never had any kind of, like word of knowledge or wisdom. I've never seen a vision I've never, you know, had this really intense spiritual experience like that. And that was the first time I really realized like, oh, yeah, well, we're all different, aren't we? Like, we don't all have that same kind of place now. At the same time, and I think later on in the book, I get into this. So even though I don't think most of us, not all of us have the same kind of spiritual experiences like this with God. It's not that I don't think we're all capable of it. You're gonna mean, like, I don't think, well, some people do. And some people don't like, I mean, I think that's true. But I think for the people that don't, I don't think it's impossible for for, for us to have these kinds of experiences. Now, that may not be exactly like this, and may not be as intense or as frequent. But I think our ability to, you know, hear the voice of God, to experience the presence of God. I think it's going to be different for everybody. I do, I do believe that I have learned like too much for one group. And I've had so many different people, you know, share different stories. And we we talked about this specific thing with people that I think a lot of, a lot of times, we may be experiencing something profound, something spiritual, some some connection with God. But we just don't know to call it that. You know what I mean? So, but I deal with that later on in the book. Yeah. And I'm saying I'm sorry. I mean, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make anyone uncomfortable. No, no story. So I wanted to at least say, look, hey, these things do happen. At least these are some things that have happened to me. Yeah. And if nothing else, maybe spark a little bit of curiosity, like, wow, yeah. How did that happen?

Seth Price 31:38

Yeah. Well, let me let me let me back up a second. So uncomfortability is something I'm okay with. I'm totally fine with it. I usually get grown and stretch. I don't I've never seen God in the way that you describe. And I'm intentionally not describing them. Because quite honest, I don't know what my follow up questions would be. And so I'm just uncomfortable already. Though, I do want to talk about time, which is at the end of chapter four. Yeah. But before I get there, so I experienced God in ways that I can't describe. Because it's not wrapped to like a, like an experience that has been verified. But like, you tell the story of like you and your son, there's a story with you and your father, like, there are all these other stuff. I don't have that. But like I see, the way that I see, like I see God in humans all the time, which really sounds simple and stupid. But if you don't look for it, you don't see it. And it, it equally makes me very angry at times. Because I get I don't know why I just get angry. And other times I'm deeply like moved when I see that, depending on the situation. So that's very general answer. But I don't really get any more details than that. So this is the part of the show that there should be ads, right? Because we live in a capitalistic world. And everything has to get paid for that. But that's just not the way that I want to do it. So if you feel led, support the show on Patreon, I do absolutely need you. But if you don't, I'm not going to put any ads here, because I just don't feel like it. Hopefully you do, though, the amount that you support will not change the benefits that you get. And so with that said, get back to the show.

Yeah, so know you towards the end of chapter four, you talk about time, space perception reality. And you capitalize the terms time and space, which I'm curious as to why those are capitalized, or if that was not intentional, actually, it has to be intentional, because you capitalize it. It was intentional. Yes. So why capitalize them? And what this time and space have to do with the way that we experienced God?

Keith 34:06

Well, I mean, I capitalize them. I think just because I want, I want people to, I want to emphasize that what I'm talking about is the concept of time, or its concept like capital T time capital S space, as these massive sort of like the dimensions of space and time. And I don't know if that's grammatically correct, maybe I'm wrong to do that.

Seth Price 34:26

But um, well, you started with mysterium. So the rest of the grammar doesn't sure

Keith 34:29

exactly, why bother? Why pretend. But when I mean, yeah, so, like you say, you know, what does that have to do with our experience of God? Well, I mean, it's the right now, in this physical body in this reality that we're living in. It's really the only grid and filter that we have to experience anything, right? Is in time and in space like this. These are the dimensions that we are operating in. And so Oh, we can't help but experience God, you know, through time and through space. What I'm trying to do in the book. And this is again, something I'm since the end of chapter four, I'm just beginning to kind of sprinkle in corporate going down the road, which is much more deeper into science and biology and quantum and all kinds of stuff.

Seth Price 35:19

I will say, I'm glad that you went there, because it was reassuring to the way that my brain works to have all of these things that I could latch on to that I could Google and less experiential. So I appreciate you doing that.

Keith 35:30

Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, it's something where like, when I was doing research for the book, I started reading like Carlo Rovelli, who's a phenomenal quantum physicist. He calls himself a theoretical physicist. And he's written several amazing books on things like he has a book called Reality is not what it seems coming in from a total scientific, he's not even he's not a theist, but just my total scientific perspective, looking at time and space and concluding things like, time isn't real. And what you know, like what, so you when I'm studying these things that I felt like, like, I was connecting some dots for myself, like, Okay, wow, like, of course, if we're talking again, about this God, who is this being who transcends knowledge he was, he was beyond human comprehension. Then, of course, this God has to transcend time. And space. God is not limited by those things. My perception is limited by those things. Absolutely. But I can't confuse my perception of those things, which is limited with with a my perception of a God who is who I relate to through time and space, but is not limited at all by time and space. Does that make sense?

Seth Price 36:50

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I actually use time and space as the words that I use when I try to explain God to my kids, which happens frequently, what I'll tell them is, whatever it is that we worship, it exists at a rate that you and I can attain Or try to. But it's also out running light, and an expanding universe, which is also out running that light. And somehow it's bigger than that. And so that's what that's what we worship. And yeah, exactly. It's like, I don't but that doesn't make any sense. Like, it literally makes no sense. But I don't know.

Keith 37:25

Again, so much of this is I think that's exactly right. So because like so much of if we're going to talk about God, I mean, I think going back to that poem, in the poem, I say something like, you know, don't talk to me of all that, you know, of God, which is pretty pretty practically nothing. Let's talk instead of all the you don't know about God, or what you don't understand about God and see to me, that's what you just said, right? Yes, God is this being who somehow is outpacing light and the expansion of the universe? Now, I don't understand that. But that at least I think is closer to reality, then than any other conception of God. I could have.

Seth Price 38:04

Yeah, right. Yeah, definitely. So in chapter seven, you pivot into quantum theology, which is just a fun. I started internally calling it Schrodinger juris theology, but it's the same thing. But there's a quote in there from Sir James John's jeans, I don't know what their nationality is. Yeah. This stream of knowledge is heading towards a non mechanical non material reality, the universe begins to look more and more like a great thought than a great than then like a great machine. And then this is the part that caught me. So mine no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter. We ought rather hailed as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. Can you break that apart a bit? Because those are big implications, and that there were a lot of words there, even though I mumbled a few of them. Like, what is that? If you could open that up a bit for people?

Keith 38:55

Well, I will try. Because, I mean, this is the reason why I started researching and reading all these quantum physicists, because like that, quote, I love that quote. So I guess it's better to put it in some context, right? So Sir James Jean is a world renowned physicist. I mean, very highly respected. He's not some quack somewhere, you know, off on the side, like he's actually a dentist. Now he's like, No, he's a physicist. He's a real a real guy. I mean, he's, he writes things that are that appear in science, which is like the highest peer reviewed, reviewed scientific journal, you know, in the world. So when someone like that, I mean, we have to first know who these people are that are speaking, they're not weirdos. So when they go in imprint, and they pay so they publish a statement like this, which again, is being it's something that's being published to be read by other, you know, quantum scientists and physicists and things like that. And so this is who he's talking to, you know, he's not, I don't know that he would even bother to try to say this out to the general public. But these are the things that he's saying, as as a physicist, to other physicists to is to say that what they what they are learning through quantum science, is leading them, some of them kicking and screaming, to to acknowledge this reality of what he says this idea that the universe and just paraphrasing what he says that the universe, we can no longer think of the universe as a great machine. Meaning it's not just matter. It's not just physical, you know, atoms and molecules, and, you know, things like that, because, again, science scientists, for the for the longest time have really been, you know, they're they don't believe in basically, they don't believe in the spiritual, they don't believe anything they can't scientifically prove. So that's why this, this quote is so powerful, because because of what they're seeing with quantum it is leading them to make statements like this, which essentially are saying, the universe is not a mechanical thing. It's not just matter. It's not just physical, that there is a when he says that instead, it's a great thought, or a consciousness. Right. And I have also watched interviews and lectures by some of these quantum physicists, when they are coming to the same conclusions or talking about the same things they're discovering through quantum science. And they'll stop themselves and say, Okay, now I know I sound like a theologian right now, I know, I sound like a metaphysical, you know, philosopher right now, because they hear themselves and it makes them nervous. Like, they don't like that this is what the science is telling them. But the science seems to be telling them that yes, consciousness has more to do with our universe than just the mere mechanics of it. Yeah. And again, what why that's exciting to me is that it fits feels like we're living in a time in history, where because of the advances in quantum physics and quantum science, scientists are beginning to acknowledge some spiritual realities that mystics have known for a long, long time, right. And that's why it's fascinating to me, when you start seeing them echoing and affirming some of these ideas that like, another idea is this idea that I think that even Carlo Rovelli says this, that it's an illusion, the the idea of illusion of separation like individual objects in space.

We see them as separate individual objects, like the chair is not the table and table does not your car in the driveway. Okay, and so that just seems intuitive. Duh. Of course not. But again, on the quantum level, what what they are seeing is that, yes, it appears that those things are different objects in the material world. But at the quantum level, they are all the same quantum field. But what you are seeing and experiencing are different expressions of the one quantum field. Yeah, that's where it starts to break your brain. Yeah. And then this gets down again, to this on the spiritual level to this idea of, well, we're not there is no separation between anything in the universe, everything is one thing, everything is one shared. Oh, here we go. Again, we're now some shared consciousness or some shared life or force, or you know, they call it the quantum field. But whatever you call it, yeah. There's a level of understanding that this is the this is the sort of the basement of reality. And this is what it looks like. Which, you know, either makes you really nervous, or makes you really excited. So it got me it kind of makes me excited. I'm like, Wow,

Seth Price 44:08

I wonder if the way that quantum scientists have to give the caveat of I might sound like a theologian here, if like ministers and like professors should have to say, I might sound like a quantum scientist here. But go with me. Yeah, that would be fun. Yeah. So I don't remember what the book but I remember reading it. And I don't remember the book because it was sent to me before it was printed. It's like literally loose leaf sheets of paper. And so I read it that way, which was a fun way to read a book never read a book that way. But it was by Jim Danaher, which if you've never had him on your show, you should have Jim on the show, Jim is freaking brilliant. But he says in the first book that I read of his which is not his first book, that like prayer, and like knowing and love, are like an act of expression of like entirely focused attention. It's like when you pray you pray in silence. And the way that you know that you're there is because your attention is just so focused that all you hear is nothing. And also all you hear is everything. Because you're finally paying attention to the things that you don't quite understand. And that's a bad paraphrase from something I read four years ago, but it's a quote that has stuck with me. And so that's not quite right. But it's it's close to that, which makes me think a little bit of what you're saying. And then you say, even on later on, somewhere in a different chapter, I can't remember the chapter. It's towards the back third of the book of that we exist. Just because God observes us, God creates things by simply looking at us, which makes me think of what you just said. And then that also makes me think of a Pete Holmes sketch, which I don't know if you've ever seen it. You know, Pete Holmes, the comedians, yes, he has a bit. It's from four or five years ago, maybe seven years ago. And it was like his first it was, it was the first big bit that he'd done after crashing became a show on HBO, which if you've never watched that hilarious show, he's like, let me tell you about things that don't make sense. He's like you and I were made of molecules and atoms and electrons and East quarks, and all this other stuff. He's like, that doesn't make any sense. He's like a knife, and your eyes would tell you that this phone is different. And that doesn't make sense. He's like, but that's also it. So some of my molecules have just moved into this phone, and some of its molecules have moved into me. But we're also the same, we're also separate. That doesn't make any goddamn sense. And he just keeps getting progressively further. I think I have seen that clip. Virtually. It's absolutely amazing. hilarious, but also, like, accurately describes what you're saying. Like he's like, I don't what system doesn't make any sense. And we're laughing about it. And I'm laughing? I don't. So it just makes me just makes me think of that. Yeah. The the the other idea, which we don't really have time to rip apart is the idea space, which is something that I then began to buy books about. And so my wife will likely Yeah, yeah, that's

Keith 46:52

fascinating. I was so excited to write a book that I could talk about ideas space, because I'm so fascinated by that.

Seth Price 46:58

Didn't do it. Take as long as you want. No one's awake. But you and I, yeah, go for it.

Keith 47:02

I don't want to take us too far off. But yeah, it's in the book idea. Space. Yeah. So. So I guess to summarize it, the ideas base came about because people started noticing, and I document this in the book, I got dates and names. And you can look it all up. I did, I did tons of research on this. And it's such an amazing thing. So like going back to like the I think even as far back as maybe the 1500s 1600s, you know, but way, way, way back before there was telephone, internet, any kind of sort of global or even communication that was instantaneous, like we have today. And that's important. You can see why. So go way, way back, you know, to those days, when there was no interaction between people around the globe. And people started noticing that in science, in medicine in mathematics, multiple people, two or three people at a time would have the same discovery would would have the same aha moment, all across the globe at the same time. And with no communication or connection with each other. No internet, no telephone, not like, hey, Fred, I just found this. Oh, yeah, me too, right. So in other words, they didn't discover it until most of them like went and applied for a patent. Or they went to publish something at the same time and be like, Oh, well, you have a book on this, but so does this guy. And so it just started happening. And it's I think it's called the principle of dual discovery, we're gonna see it's dual discovery, but sometimes it's more than more than two. So two or three people may be so much more people will discover in certain thing, or invent the same thing or have the same, you know, aha moment. And, and it just keeps happening. So it's happening all the way up into modern times, where, again, this this thing just keeps happening. So dual discovery, I'm sorry, idea space was sort of a way that people started trying to figure out why does this keep happening? It doesn't make any sense. They, you know, some of these people don't even speak the same language of a French guy on Italian guy and a German guy, and like, they live in different places, they don't talk to each other. And yet, they all have at the same time, we're talking weeks or, you know, days apart, and they're having the same discoveries, and you know, like inventions and things like this. So ideas based the idea was like, well, then there must be sort of, again, this, this is gonna sound super weird. But it's as if those ideas already exist, like they those are that those ideas sort of pop into being let's say, at the same time that idea pops into being and if your antenna is up in sort of this idea space, going back to your that your quote about paying attention and focusing, right. So you're thinking about something you're focused on something you're searching for something you know, you're looking for something you're seeking for something, you know, Jesus says, You knock and the door will be open seeking you find so people are seeking and looking and thinking and studying and focused. And because they are doing that all at the same time. Multiple people around the world at the same time will catch that same idea. They'll go out there it is. And then then it just becomes a race to can publish a first or get it out there first. But so it's the, the, the suggestion that that this is where ideas come from. That idea is basically sort of pop into being. And I guess you could say in like a collective unconscious, right? This this is something that Carl Jung talked about, that there was a collective unconscious that all humans sort of tap into. And the thing is, we're all tapped into it. But we don't all sort of catch the same thing, because we're not all focused or thinking or looking for that kind of thing. But those who are will catch it at the same time. So, yeah, it's really amazing. I actually came across it, initially through some science fiction writers that I was, that I really liked. And they were doing an interview and they brought it up. And I was like, Ha, that's crazy. And then I started researching it. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, this i This is really, really fascinating. So yeah, I just I love that. I really love that whole idea of ideas, space.

Seth Price 51:04

Definitely. Yeah, and you're not wrong. So like you listen, you listen, if you're out, there's a bunch, you can just Google it. And there are many, many, many, many, many other examples. So I want to I want to try to wrap this last question before I asked my actual last question, in a way of summarizing a chapter, the best that I can internally. So in chapter 10, strange Creek change strange frequencies, which is also very fast, like something that that wasn't aware of the way that like the hormone hormone harmonies, and there's a, there's a I forget the word that you use, it starts with the C like some symbiotics. And Baltics? Yeah, did not write the word down. So thinking about that, you and I, as being images of, of the Divine. So with all of this like wonderous, overwhelming cacophonous musical rhythm between you and I, and the world that we live in, and knowing that things exist, because we observe them in the same way that things exist, because God observes them, and I do think that you've, you've said that well, like, I never thought about it that way. But the more I thought about it, I'm like, yeah, that actually feels good. Like that feels right. Because again, it's just intention. And it also bears things out of love. Because that's what attention is. Yes. What are why can we possibly hate? Because that those two don't stand together with me? But obviously we do. Yes. So what do I do with that? Like, what are Why are like, I don't know.

Keith 52:39

Yeah, well, no, I mean, that definitely becomes sort of the begging the question, right? I think the more you do start to recognize, like, oh, my gosh, all of us are so impossibly connected with God, right? We all have this incredible connection with God, and then therefore, by implication, one another, again, because if this quantum field thing is correct, then it's not me. And you, you, you and are both expressions of the same field, the same thing, I could call that God, I mean, science is calling that quantum. I mean, to me, I can't help as someone raised as a Christian, but to go back to this idea that, well, no, Christ is the one, you know, that, you know, all things were made by Him, for him and through him, and nothing was made that you know, without him and, and that he's Christ sustains all things. And, you know, Christ is our life and all these things. So that's what I that's how I understand that. So like, oh, my gosh, if, if, as Jesus said, You know, I'm in the Father, and the Father is in Me, and I am in you. Okay, wow. So there's an amazing, mind blowing, beautiful implication like that. It's something that I really, I think you can meditate on it for the rest of your life. You know, it's just so powerful and profound and beautiful, like, Man, I am so deeply connected to God. And again, it just pulls back and pulls into me all these other statements like Paul makes about we are filled with the fullness of Him, him and fills everything in every way. And you're nothing will ever separate you from the love of God, angels, demons, hype, death, even death, death itself, Nothing will separate you from this love of God. Wow, you know, that's just so amazing. But again, it's, if you really, really, really, really get it, if you meditate on it for a little bit, you really start to understand that it's not just that I'm this deeply connected to this God who is love. And if you are to, then by implication, I'm also connected to you and everyone else in the universe. And so, yes, then it definitely does beg the question of like, if we really get it if we could really grasp this, or at least begin to, to hope to believe that this is real. This is reality. This is true. It's true that we see in the Scripture is truth. We see Jesus and affirming. And Paul, for me, we see it. And I mentioned this in the book, we see it affirmed in many other religions, many other feats. Now we're seeing it affirmed in quantum science and things like this, like, we have to get it like this is a big deal. This is a fundamental thing about who we are, and, and who God is, and who everyone else is. And if we really get it, then we would truly understand the meaning of when Jesus says things like, whatever you've done, for the least of these, you've done it to me. Because you, you and I are connected, like, whatever I'm doing to you. I'm doing to Christ, whatever you do to me, you're doing to Christ. But I'm also whatever I do to you, I'm doing it to myself. Because we are so connected, this idea of abiding, when Jesus says, Abide in Me and I will abide in you that there's a whole other words that you could do about abide, like a Biden, to ease the metaphor of the vine in the branch. Can you show me draw me a line on like, pull up, pull off a limb, you know, of like a grape vine or something and show me draw me a line with a marker? Where does the vine in and the branch begin? You can't it's, it's the vine and a branch is one big thing, you know. And so there is a level of oneness there, that if we really get it, we would truly love our brother as ourselves, love our neighbor as ourselves. Because we realize that we are connected, we are inseparable from Christ and from one another in this really beautiful way. It to me It connects almost every.it pulls everything together in such a beautiful way. Yeah. And I think it'd be really did get it, then we would, we can't go to war. I can't I can't do violence to you. I can't, I can't even lie to you. Why would I do them? I'm harming you, right? Because I recognize that we are the same. You know, we have we're what we're, we're more connected than I could even imagine.

Seth Price 56:54

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So my favorite question, I think I've asked this of you before, maybe I didn't ask it of you. It doesn't matter. So when you want to, which is funny, because you begin the book with things that we can't know and say about God. So when you want to wrap words around, whatever it is, I say, hey, Keith, when you say God, what do you mean? What is that?

Keith 57:19

So you're asking me, when I say God, what do I mean?

Seth Price 57:21

Yeah, or divine? Or whatever word you want to put there? Like, what? What is that?

Keith 57:26

Oh, man, well, it's hard, isn't it? It's hard to express this into words. I guess what I'm realizing is most of the ways the majority of my life, the ways the language I was given the concepts I was given, I'm just more and more realizing how inadequate they are. To describe God, like, I think even the English language is so it's, it's, it just isn't equipped. It wasn't designed. The English language is not designed to have any conversation about God, we can't say it because it's God is not an IT. I can't even say he or she because God is not has no gender. God doesn't have any parts. You know, God isn't. God is a Spirit. So, you know, we have, we have some beautiful language in the New Testament, right, that God is love. I've been really, really inspired and blessed by reading settings, you know, other outside of the Christian world, and how they express God and, and it's this beautiful, you know, a spirit of being a father, a grandmother, a grandfather, a being that deeply loves us, cares for us, created us is connected to us, hasn't abandoned us would never abandon us. But I mean, how do you hear me I, I don't know that there's language, I guess more and more, I'm feeling like, I'm feeling frustrated, that language just doesn't do a very good job of expressing that. But but at the same time, when I, when I take time to take a walk around the block, or spend time in silence, or, you know, walk in nature, or talk to my wife or my kids, or you know what I mean? Like I I definitely find myself as you said, experiencing God in some profound ways. Again, just glimpses you can never get the whole thing. But you get glimpses and you go out there it is. Wow. You know, thank you. So it's tough. It's I don't know, again, I definitely feel like someone who is less capable of defining and explaining but I definitely am grateful that I'm capable of experiencing it.

Seth Price 59:36

Yeah. Thank you for that. Um, when? What should human beings that are listening to this, what should what would you direct them to do the things in this world that they should be doing is it is to either support the work that you're doing or maybe have them go do something else? Like where do you want people to go like a little call to action or whatever, like, what should they be doing?

Keith 59:57

Oh, wow. Well, I mean, into sort of a general sense that, hey, buy my book or whatever.

Seth Price 1:00:08

I think, do buy the book, read chapter four, and then come back and listen to it. And if you're like me, you'll be like, Oh, I see what he was doing. I see, I see why he was shivering in this chair.

Keith 1:00:20

But I mean, know what I, I want people I kind of kind of in the book with this kind of idea, too. I want people to trust themselves and trust their own ability to, to have these kinds of connections with God to hear God's voice. I think so much of the theology again, that I grew up with, tried to convince me that I, my thoughts are evil all the time, I heard his wicked and deceptive, I can't trust myself, Oh, don't do that. And all these little alarm bells go off, you know, like, oh, no, no, that's dangerous. But it's not. I mean, I want to tell you, if Jesus is the one telling you, I'm the Good Shepherd, and My sheep hear my voice, they you can. And it's not, it's less about your ability to do that correctly. It's, it's more about the good shepherds ability as the good shepherd to make his voice heard. He, you know what I mean, so trust that the Good Shepherd is capable of being heard, clearly. Don't worry about your ability to do that. And so again, learning to trust yourself, and your own ability to know God that way. Because I think that's what it's all about. But when it comes to the other stuff, yeah, you know, if people want to know more, if they want to interact and stuff, I'm on Facebook, and Twitter and Instagram and all that, and, you know, yeah, happy to connect with people there in different ways like that, too. I hope. By the way, I have to mention my podcasts. I have a, I have a new solo podcast that I do called second couple of Keith. That's been a lot of fun. So everybody's curious about that. Check it out on wherever you plan podcast.

Seth Price 1:01:50

Did you start the second cup when you were driving at that job? And I want to say Utah, Idaho, I forget exactly where you were. But I remember when you began those, is that the genesis of that whole concept, or were you doing it before that?

Keith 1:02:03

I started? Well, yeah, I just started doing on Facebook. I would just go live on video.

Seth Price 1:02:06

You were driving, right? Like going from here to there sometimes. Yes. I'd

Keith 1:02:09

be driving the car. Second couple of key. Yes. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, I just decided I liked that name. And I decided, well, I want to do a podcast like

Seth Price 1:02:17

that. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Keith. It's always a pleasure, man. I enjoy, enjoy what you do. And I enjoyed the time, thanks for sharing your time with me.

Keith 1:02:26

So I appreciate it so much, man, thank you.

Seth Price 1:02:51

Now, I haven't added it up. But there are hundreds of 1000s, if not millions of podcasts on the internet. And I am humbled that you continue to download this one. This is your first time here. Please know that there are transcripts of these shows. Not always in real time, but I do my best. And if you go back in the logs, you can find transcripts for pretty much any episode that you'd like. The show is recorded and edited by me, but it is produced by the patreon supporters of the show. That is one of the best if not the best way that you can support the show. If you get anything at all out of these episodes, if you think on them, or if you you know you're out and about and you tell your friends about it or Hey, mom, dad, brother, sister, friend, boss, Pastor, here's what I heard. What are your thoughts on that? If this is helping you in any way and it is helping me consider supporting the show in that manner. It is extremely inexpensive, but collectively, it is so very much helpful. Now for you. I pray that you are blessed, and you know that you're cherished and beloved. We'll talk soon