Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Julie Rodgers 0:00

I don't really think it matters why we are the way we are. Like did God intended for people to be born gay or was that the product of like very early childhood parenting, it doesn't really matter. By the time that we're 11 years old and realize our bodies are tingling around people the same sex, it doesn't really matter how we got there. What's true is that it cannot be changed. And that it is fundamentally harmful and damaging to be told that the way that you give and receive love and experience intimacy is wrong and sinful and bad, and that you have to suppress it and say no every single time throughout your life that you feel a desire to hold hands with someone, to kiss someone, to snuggle with someone to build a life with someone. And so, to me, it's just the “born this way” question is just really beside the point.

Seth Price 1:19

What is going on there you? Yeah, you! Eith the EarPods in listening to the show. Welcome back. I'm Seth, I'm happy that you're here. Quick, brief announcement, I have added maybe two or three new designs into the store for the show. If you want to head over to the website at CanISayThisatChurch.com check those out. I'm happy with them. My daughters are happy with them. And they both want one. My son's happy with it. So I feel like I've hit a good demographic there. So yeah, make that happen. I mean, you have to wear clothes anyway. Right? Like, you may as well have on some Can I Say This At Church. So today, or tonight, whenever you happen to be listening, I have Julie Rodgers on the show. Her story is, I guess, known. She has been involved in many ministries and organizations etc. Most recently was involved, or featured or had her story touched on in the documentary on Netflix called Pray Away, which I will say is a good, good use of your time. But more importantly, she wrote a book and it is…it is a rough book to read through. I found myself putting it down multiple times. I've read it more than once. It um…it is…what's the word I'm looking for? It's um, sobering.

So Julie weaves a story that is a like a clarion call for so many people that are just ambiguous about their thoughts and don't use their brain to support and love people that they live in community with. And it's a memoir about love, and hurt, and loss, and hope. And it is wonderful. I'm not doing it justice. Now, I will say in the show, we do not dive specifically into detail(s) on the book. And you'll hear kind of why as you listen through on the show. However, I don't want to wait any longer. And so here we go roll the tape with Julie Rodgers.

Seth Price 4:03

Julie Rogers, I think I've been trying to find a way to connect with you for about four months. And most of that's my fault, not yours. I went on vacation and I jettisoned the podcast life for three months on summer break. Because I'm a dad. And you know, you got to do what you got to do. But I am very excited to talk to you tonight. I read your book actually two times. I read it on the way to Texas to visit my mom a few weeks ago, because I had a four hour layover in Houston twice, once to Midland and once back.

Julie Rodgers 4:33

Whoa! Whoa!

Seth Price 4:35

So that was fun. But it gave me time to do some other things. I had intended to edit a couple episodes of the podcast and forgot my hard drive. So that didn't happen. So, a reread of your text was up for order, but I'm glad that you're here. Welcome.

Julie Rodgers 4:47

Thank you Seth. It's really great to be here. And I'm from Texas. So I guess we share some roots there.

Seth Price 4:54

We do. So I'm from Midland, Texas, which is way west of Tomball I think it's Tomball. Yeah, that's it right? Yeah which I feel like is outside of Houston.

Julie Rodgers 5:02

Right? It is. It was Tomball and then the Dallas area but I’ve been to Midland.

Seth Price 5:06

Yeah. So my brother lives my brother and sister live right in Denton area up in Dallas now. And for those of you listening that have no idea how big Texas is so Tomball to Midland is like nine hours.

Julie Rodgers 5:20

Yeah, you can get to Denver, Colorado like quicker than Midland from Dallas.

Seth Price 5:26

it's a big, it's a big state. So anyway, Google it. I'll put a thing in the transcript. You can just click it here. And anyway, it happened. So when you want to tell people what and who you are, like, how do you describe yourself?

Julie Rodgers 5:39

Oh, I would say I am Julie. I am a cat mom. (Seth gufahs) I am a writer. Oh! You made a face!

Seth Price 5:49

I'm allergic….so…

Julie Rodgers 5:53

Ohhhh…wow! The universe was not kind to you. So I have two cats. Prince and Toby. I am a writer. And I wrote a book about my experience growing up gay in evangelical communities. And I am a closet crossfitter. I love working out and I love…

Seth Price 6:13

You said closet crossfitter? Isn’t that an oxymoron. Like every crossfitter I've ever met...

Julie Rodgers 6:19

Well I don’t talk about that very often (smiles) I just felt led to share that with you. (Seth laughs) And I don't admit it because of the way people are so enthusiastic about it.. But here I am sharing this with you. And I just love I love working out and I love communities and it's fun to do all that together. Just a few things about me.

Seth Price 6:37

Yeah, yeah, I'm a Miniature Dachshund person. And I don't mind looking at cats. I'm happy that they're outside. My mom has a cat. I just I can't breathe around cats. And so I prefer oxygen over felines, though, I'm glad that you, I'm glad that you like the cats. Anyway.

So I have kind of a running theme. Anytime I talk to someone from Texas. And it's important to me, almost as important as football, or, or God, you've travelled quite a bit. And as people should buy your book, and honestly, they should buy the book. We'll talk about that in a bit. But you travel quite a bit. And so I have to feel that you have had the ability to choose In and Out Burger or What-a-Burger in your travels. And I just need to know, which is better. But I only ask people from Texas because everyone else's opinion just holds less less weight.

Julie Rodgers 7:29

I feel like I would only choose…I would choose What-a-burger. I would say In and Out is just overrated. Like, What-a-burger is, is good, it's fine. But also so is In and Out. And because In and Out is so like widely acclaimed and falls so far short. I just feel like I would rather go for the underdog.

Seth Price 7:53

(Chuckles)

I can tell you so I went back and I had a little bit when I was there a few weeks ago. And when you don't have it for 15 years, there's some nostalgia that makes the flavor really pump up. Even in the airport in Houston, you know, you get that, anyway, has nothing to do with anything. I know that you did not come on here to talk about that. But it has become a thing. Only one guest has gotten a little bit hateful about it. And that's okay, cuz I left it in the edit. He knows who he is. (Coughs* Looking at you Prop!) We're not gonna play games with that.

So the questions about your book, so the book is Outlove: A Queer Christian Survival Story. And even that, I kind of wanted to start there. So let me just say, firstly, that I'm actually fairly nervous to have this conversation because your story is extremely honest. A lot of people will talk about the theology of LGBTQ stuff. And they'll talk about this and talk about that. And so like they talk around it. But outside of I'm assuming changed names, like these are really personal stories in your book. And so why does it exist? Like, that's a lot to put yourself out there like that in text that will be available a lot longer than things on the Google if you know how to search like so. So why?

Julie Rodgers 9:08

So I, my mom took me to an ex-gay organization when I came out at 16. I was a part of those communities for almost 10 years. And then I was a part of like the celibate, sort of, gay community for several years after that. So really, from the age of 16 until 30, I was entrenched and queer Christian communities where they weren't, like, allowed to really be gay. And like, they weren't fully affirmed. And they were told that who they were intrinsically their desires, their love, the way in which they're wired to give and receive love that all of that was wrong and bad and sinful and that they were broken. So I saw for 14 years, the most like formative years of my life, the damage that caused and how it led so many people I love to other self loathing and self hatred. And I felt like I wanted people to understand. I wanted people to see. I felt like surely if Christians just knew if they understood they wouldn't continue teaching and believing this. And so I thought by telling my own story, and just giving a window into what I've seen, that it might move people to see the humanity of a lot of other people that I know and love.

Seth Price 10:33

What has been since the book released and you'll have to forgive me, I honestly can't remember when it released, what has kind of been the feedback from people, as they've read it.

Julie Rodgers 10:44

Surprisingly positive. II've heard a lot of people say, I'm asking different questions. Now. This is really powerful and moving. And I'm asking new questions, which is about the best thing I could hope for from people who might see things differently than me. And a lot of people say they feel less alone, that they. whether they're queer or not, they really resonated with an experience of feeling different or asking questions that made them feel like alienated from their faith communities. And the most moving thing is to hear from other queer people in conservative Christian communities who are saying like, for the first time, I feel like a sense of hope and a sense of possibility for a positive future. And I hadn't been able to imagine that before.

Seth Price 11:31

Yeah, at the very beginning, like literally, I think it's like page two, it's not, it's page four. I've underlined this a couple times, actually in two different pens, so I must have underlined it both times. So you write in here, and I'd like you to just break apart what you mean, when you say “good”, and kind of how that has been culturally co-opted by, I guess, evangelicalism. But there's probably a lot of words that you could put there. So you're talking about, you know,

…where I come from good kids aren't gay. And all I wanted was to be good.

So what do you mean, good?

Julie Rodgers 12:07

I wanted to be somebody who made my parents proud. Who…the people, you know, at church potlucks, thought was somebody worthy of acceptance and approval. And I wanted the approval of the leaders in my community, the pastors, the teachers, and I wanted…I wanted to be….I wanted them to be proud of me. Not just tolerate me.

Seth Price 12:42

I read that. And I feel like that sentence works for so many things outside of even sexuality. Maybe that's why I underlined that a couple times, even though it's in a book related to that, like because I read that, and I am not gay in any way, shape, or form. But I also have those same longings of you know, I don't know, but I know how Texas church culture is. And so I know the expectation of people, just humans of here's what you do, shoot, or in fact, when I went to visit recently, a Sunday school teacher asked me what my thoughts were on critical race theory because I must live close to Loudon County here in Virginia. And I was like it is…. “First off, my name is Seth. It's fantastic to meet you. I understand you know my mom. And I don't believe that I live in Loudon County.” So you know, I mean, but “good” has expectations for sexuality, for political views, for the way that you know, for everything.

Julie Rodgers 13:38

Yeah, this gets into an interesting point too, around identity in Christ, one of the biggest challenges I've gotten by being openly gay in the church, as people will say, “Well, why are you placing your identity in your sexuality? Why aren't you finding your identity in Christ?”

And it's a really bizarre thing. And at first you're like, Okay, well, what is an identity in Christ? Because like, straight people aren't told they're finding their identity and their sexuality when they say they're straight. So clearly it doesn't just mean that and then the more I started thinking of it, the more I realized that…I was at The Viillage Church one time this big, sort of like, hip mega church in Dallas. And there was a video where a guy, a black member of The Village was talking about sort of like Black Lives Matter. And he was saying, you know, he was talking to some degree about like, racial injustice. But he said, you know, “the most important thing isn’t that I’m black it's that I am a Christian, I'm a son of God, and I am finding my identity in Christ before being black.”

And I just thought like, this is interesting! Like, why is it just in these communities (that)…why is this seen as separate and it feels like only like, queer folks or black folks or people…only serve kinds of people have to separate those out and rank them. And I just don't hear somebody like Matt Chandler say that he doesn't find his identity. You know, like he gets to say he's straight and white and not find his identity in that, it's weird!

Seth Price 15:16

Yeah. I used to listen to a lot of Matt Chandler quite a bit. And as the years have gone, so, again, we don't, we referenced earlier, we don't really know each other at all. So I went to Liberty after leaving Texas.

Julie Rodgers 15:30

Whoa!!

Seth Price 15:32

And then yeah, so there we go. I don't think I could go back to Liberty. In fact I encourage everyone that I speak too to not study theology at Liberty, if you can. But yeah, anyway, so yeah, I get that. And I can remember, there's a few distinct sermons. And I realized one week, maybe six or seven years ago, I just liked the way that he preached, but not what he was preaching, like, the cadence, the delivery. And yeah, anyway, so I do have a question. It's not ultimately very serious. But I've never heard anybody describe a job this way. And so you were talking about where is this at, so we're in chapter eight, talking about getting with an organization called Q. And you say in here, talking about the men there, they have successful companies, they have influences like the evangelical elite. So I guess for some context, like we'll call it like Charlie Kirk, and, you know, the people like that today.

But you say that in the past, you'd never made more than $40,000 in a year and all your jobs had allowed you to wear jeans and a T-shirt, which I really like because I have to wear a suit every day for work. I work at a bank. But I'm curious if that is an interview thing for you just just for some levity there? Like jeans and a T-shirt is that a deal breaker for a position?

Julie Rodgers 16:46

Um…………

Seth Price 16:49

I like how serious you are considering this question. (Laughs)

Julie Rodgers 16:51

I was just thinking about what I was talking about where I was when I wrote that. And I think like I had been in Christian ministry, I worked in the nonprofit with high school students. And before that I was in this food service industry. And it was just interesting to me. This sort of like, class difference I felt, if I can say that in evangelicalism, it was like, Oh, I'm with the spiritual leaders. But I was also with a certain kind of like, elite when I entered into that scene. A certain like, assumption of like, money and power and how you present yourself. And it was just interesting to note, because it wasn't necessarily about just about spirituality, or religion, it was about lots of other things.

Seth Price 17:33

That's not an organization that I'm very familiar with. Does it still exist? I didn't Google it. I have no idea.

Julie Rodgers 17:38

Yeah, actually they get really prominent speakers every year. So like, people like Lecrae, or…

Seth Price 17:46

Is it like Ted, but for Christians?

Julie Rodgers 17:49

Yeah. It's Ted, for Christians. Yeah. Yeah.

Seth Price 17:53

I don't know how I feel about that. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I wonder if you could speak a bit on, for those listening, because I get emails and questions from many people, predominantly, because I am overtly inclusive in almost everything, and even with close friends and family. And I have a constant argument about the way that people are created. You know, this, that and the other. And I'm curious if you could speak a bit for people that are questioning that as well but my church tells me this, my pastor tells me this, that I there's no way I could have been born this way, there's no way that X, Y or Z could happen. That's just not the way that that creation works. I'm curious if you could say anything about that.

Julie Rodgers 18:35

I don't really think it matters why we are the way we are. Like did God intended for people to be born gay or was that the product of like very early childhood parenting, it doesn't really matter. By the time that we're 11 years old and realize our bodies are tingling around people the same sex, it doesn't really matter how we got there. What's true is that it cannot be changed. And that it is fundamentally harmful and damaging to be told that the way that you give and receive love and experience intimacy is wrong and sinful and bad, and that you have to suppress it and say no every single time throughout your life that you feel a desire to hold hands with someone, to kiss someone, to snuggle with someone to build a life with someone. And so, to me, it's just the “born this way” question is just really beside the point.

It’s like how do we thrive now that we are here; and what leads to healthy outcomes and what leads to harm?

Seth Price 19:38

Yeah, in your opinion, having conversations with people, what is a more effective approach to have an honest conversation with no intent to sway someone one way or another? Because I don't think you can. I honestly think, and I feel like I read this somewhere, that if you try to force people to your viewpoint you just further entrench them in their own. And so what is the best way for people on both sides or even in the middle of the aisle to figure out how to have conversations about sexuality and theology and everything else kind of going forward in a way that maybe is productive?

Julie Rodgers 20:14

I think it's important to look at the fruit of your beliefs in the real world. And so we know that youth who are subjected to teaching that says they need to deny their queerness, and seek to become straight, are twice as likely to have attempted suicide and this last year than those who weren't. So that's a very clear direct correlation. And I think we can look at Jesus and we can look at the scriptures and see that Jesus broke some of the rules in the Bible in the name of honoring the dignity and humanity of human beings who were in front of himself. Whether that was moving toward women toward lepers were people who were seen as scandalous and unclean and saying you are wanted, and you're beautiful, and I delight in you. And I think that's a really important model for people to sit with and to say, should I value the words written down in a book 2000 years ago that there are endless, truly infinite, ways to interpret in endless different ways, or the human being before me, especially when there's clear correlation between mental health outcomes for a vulnerable population, and teaching about their humanity and dignity?

Seth Price 21:41

Yeah, I want to talk a bit about your time at Wheaton College. And the reason being is and I wrote it on a couple pages. And I don't want to lambast Wheaton College, I know very little about Wheaton College, except for Dr Jjohn Walton, who I find is a brilliant person in his field. That's all I know, about Wheaton College. And I feel like they're also the college that had the issue with the professor wearing a hijab, that now works for UVA. So I'm fine with that (as) she's closer here. And, you know, I'm glad that she's here. Because that benefits the community that I live in. It just feels like as I've read through the bulk of the book, that there is just an underlying theme of manipulation of your story, and people like you, from every level at all times. Is that fair?

Julie Rodgers 22:27

It felt that way. It felt like there were some people who really wanted to support me and LGBTQ people, and they wanted to be kinder and more loving. And when push came to shove, if they had to choose between managing their image, or a narrative or sort of the conversation around theology and ethics, if that came down to choosing that, or just loving and supporting me and other queer people, they continually chose their own sort of agenda, for lack of a better word.

Seth Price 23:03

Yeah, outside of and I, the reason I'm trying to ask questions in a different way, is, from what I gather, you get asked the same question 97 times on all these podcasts? And I'm not interested in that. Because honestly, a lot of those questions are answered in the book, and people should buy the text and read it, because the answers that you give her in brief. So I'm trying to be intentional with the questions that I asked.

Julie Rodgers 23:27

Thats generous. Thank you!

Seth Price 23:31

Well, I don't know. Anyway, it makes things a little bit more difficult. I am trying to figure out the best way to ask this question. So you have a line in here. And it talks about where is that? So you're talking about the end of Wheaton, I believe. And there's a line at the end? Where you say how do you prepare?

How do you prepare yourself for the end of the only life that you've ever known?

Which again, is another sentence that I think deeply hits at a lot of people as their views on life and marriage and family and politics and Afghanistan or their sexuality or whatever that is, you've had a lifetime of experiences that many people don't experience? Can you rip that apart a bit? Like how does one begin to prepare themselves for living on a different planet, metaphorically speaking?

Julie Rodgers 24:32

For one, I think it's a really long process. And I think it's important to start building up a community elsewhere, even if that's only one or two people who you know are going to be in it like with you and for you on the other side of that declaration you're gonna make. And I think it's important to know that you will survive and you'll actually thrive. Like you're making a decision to save your life in many ways, because you were finding that you couldn't breathe in the community or worldview that you had before.

And to know there are people that you've never met before, who you're going to grow to love. And there are places you've never been, that are going to totally capture your heart. And there's a sense of freedom and possibility that you won't be able to taste or tap into until you sort of take the plunge. And I think you have to rest in knowing that's true, even if it is going to get a lot harder for a period and you are going to feel a lot of loneliness for a period, and sort of existential dread. It doesn't last forever and there's more beauty on the other side of it, of being able to live more authentically and in a more integrated way.

Seth Price 25:56

Yeah, no, I would agree with that. wholeheartedly. That, to me, is among my favorite lines in the entire book. It's, um, I don't know, I don't know why.

I wonder if you could give a bit more context to how you begin chapter 18. And so you say that you have

a growing awareness of the way that conservative Christians had grossly misrepresented queer people,

and how that coincides with Donald Trump's rise to power and not overly concerned with Donald Trump. I'm more concerned with the misrepresentation of queer people. And maybe beginning with a definition of that to begin with, because that's a word that gets thrown around a bit. And I'll admit my ignorance with a lot of that, but what what is that misrepresentation? How does it relate to politics and Empire? Like, where and how is that?

Julie Rodgers 26:48

The misrepresentation, I found that white evangelicals in particular really honed in on issues like same sex relationships, LGBTQ issues, and abortion, to create a sense of fear in their followers. And it seemed it was to sort of mobilize them to rally behind, like a Republican political agenda. Because like, if you read the Bible, you're gonna see that it seems like a lot of the men are kind of sleeping with like, everyone. They're having so much sex. (Seth laughs) And God seems to be much more alarmed with money and with abuse of power and with, like, greed. And so there's just, and these leaders embody that like, especially, you know, looking at Trump and some of the like Jerry Falwell's, they truly embody, like the seven deadly sins, all of them.

And it's just breathtaking that vulnerable people are scapegoated for things that the Bible doesn't, in any way, prioritize as most significant. So I can't help but feel like there's… and I don't think it's the people in the pews that are making this decision or this negotiation and that they're just like, bad and don't like gay people. I think that it starts with people that have an agenda, kind of like the intelligentsia, the leaders, and then it trickles on down to pastors who are preaching this in the churches, and they're twisting scripture. They're like, weaving in Scripture to go with it. So then people like my mom are like, “Oh, I guess gay people are the most disgusting people on the face of the earth. And actually, the way to love Julie is to just like, outright reject her”. She didn't just wake up and decide that was the most loving and kind thing to do to the daughter that she loved more than anyone else in the world. She believed that because of James Dobson and Jerry Falwell and the trickle down effect of that to her community,

Seth Price 29:07

And for those that listen to this show for some time, I have some episodes on those texts. That is an awful way to read Scripture, not just for sexuality but it's just an awful way to read any holy text, but specifically, ours.

It’s been enough weeks, you know what that sound means. 15-30 seconds tops. I'm going to be back in just a second.

Seth Price 29:42

What does someone do that hears that? And they're like, yeah, I need to talk about that and push my church or talk to my pastor or my elders or my deacons. How do you do so respectfully, without causing the 91st or 90th I think you say there's 90,000 something denominations? How do I make it not 90,001 because we're spinning off again, we're doing the thing, or without just exploding the local church body? Because that community is is valuable has purpose.

Julie Rodgers 30:11

I think that's where stories come in handy. It's one of the reasons I wrote this book. Sharing the stories of the actual human beings we're talking about feels really important as a starting place for pastoral care. And I think if there are LGBTQ people who are open in the community like bringing them in and listen to their voices, and like genuinely consulting them to say, like, how do you experience this community? And like, are there ways that you feel like you wish you were supported or plugged in that you don't have access to? And chances are, there's not many openly gay people in those communities, in which case, like reading books like mine, or blogs, and actually just seeking out our experiences and stories, I think is a good inroad to deeper conversations and bigger conversations. Because nobody's heart is changed by like, suddenly reading Romans 1 again, and then like (light bulb). Like, it's just, it's just not how this works. So yeah, I think you need to actually enter into relationships with the people.

Seth Price 31:20

Do you think that that's going to, and this is just not sarcastic or tongue in cheek? Do you honestly feel as though that will happen? Like in the coming? So I mean, my oldest is 12. Like, is that a thing that's gonna happen before he's 30 or is the church just gonna continue to wither away because it refuses to have those conversations?

Julie Rodgers 31:38

So this is why I think that experiences and relationships are so important. I found with like, students at Wheaton, straight students were much more inclined to be open to fully affirming LGBTQ people, because there were openly LGBTQ people in their circles. And so they were like, wow, like, you know, Jimmy is my friend. And I know he's a good guy. And he seems healthier and happier when he's around people who just tell him that God loves him, and that God delights and the way he is and the way he gives and receive love. And so they were just more inclined to be like affirming and supportive.

And I found a lot of people like that were a part of my circles for like, a long, long time have been able to move with me as they've watched me and just sort of seen my story unfold. So I think there's always going to be a contingent of people who, you know, believe that women need to submit in the house and in the church. And, you know, in the same way, there will be people who don't believe that I am as worthy of love as their straight kids. But I think that there will continue to be a lot of people who are moved the more they're exposed to LGBTQ Christians.

Seth Price 33:01

What is your relationship with the church now or organized religion for lack of a better word?

Julie Rodgers 33:07

So I'm a Teaching Fellow at this community, and I love It's my favorite sort of, like, Christian institution kind of thing right now; that I'm a part of. It's called the Faith and Justice Network out of City Church in San Francisco. And it's a nine month long program where people are encountering texts by like, womanist theologians or sociologists talking about sort of like the roots of race and racism in cities in the US. Or reading Barbara Brown Taylor about, you know, like nurturing sort of our spiritual lives with God. And this sort of seeking a more expansive vision of Christian spirituality that isn't reactive and isn't fueled by rage or cynicism-that actually believes that there's something beautiful here and that religion and Christianity can help us become more generous people who are driven by love over fear.

And so I love that community and I go to this Episcopal church often and love sort of the liturgy and the structure and the sense that I can step into something that you know, these prayers have been prayed for over 2000 years. And that I can let it wash over me and sort of carry me in the weeks when I myself don't necessarily believe those words. And I find that over time it’s like produced good fruit and me and I think that matters.

Seth Price 34:53

Yeah, I feel like it's in Barbara's actually her last book. She said something about that, like faith is when your community…like faith is when you can set you aside your doubts and fears and allow your community to carry your faith for you while you rest, recuperate and re-review. I don't mean review and hyphen, re-view what your what your thoughts on God are. And then when you're able, they just give you back the torture you go, we carried this for you. We've got you. We never forgot you. I forget where it is. But it's…it's in one of those texts there.

Julie Rodgers 35:29

That’s really beautiful.

Seth Price 35:31

Yeah, well, it's Barbara. Barbara is freaking amazing. Yes, I see as a way with words. So just a couple other questions. So what do you feel like people, not clergy, not the ministers should be allowed to say in church? And if we don't it will just continue to be hospice care for the pastor's that lead those churches.

Julie Rodgers 35:59

I think people need be allowed to say, hey, the Bible is like a really complicated text. And it definitely, there's so much for us to glean from it. And it's it's truly inspired and important. And we need to value the human beings that are created in God's image that Jesus came to be with; we need to value them more than our interpretations of this ancient text. And to challenge people, when they find that there are beliefs that are causing harm, that are debatable, that are just rooted in bigotry and, you know, might be rooted in bigotry, because this is a text written over 2000 years in a wildly different context.

Seth Price 36:51

How is, and this is probably more of a personal question than you want to answer. And so feel free to not if you don't want to, but throughout the act of writing this book, and reliving and working through those stories and emotions, how has your relationship with God changed from the beginning to the end, from cover to cover?

Julie Rodgers 37:16

I think in the beginning, you know, let's say five years ago, I was really worried about like, “Oh, I might lose my faith,” or “I might miss out on a relationship with God, or what God's doing in the world.” And now I feel like God holds me and God holds the world and faith and holds me and that this is here for me as a resource to grow in love and kindness. And it's not something that's like I'm in or out of it's just something that's always available for me to be nourished by so that I can make the world a little bit of a gentler place than it was yesterday.

Seth Price 38:10

Hmm. I like that. So last question. Um, and then just a couple quick follow up things that have nothing to do with the episode. So when you try to wrap words around God, when you say what that is, what is that?

Julie Rodgers 38:33

I think God is where we come from, what we're here for, the source of love, the source of beauty, the source of light, the source of hope and possibility, the source of breath. And I think God is the generative force in the world that is also the one bringing out, bringing about, like justice and redemption, in a really sad world. And that it's really not so important that we know details about that God as much as it is that we remain receptive to all that God wants seems to want to do and then through us.

Seth Price 39:27

I like that. Were so and I don't even know how to say this. So I have skirted around many of the topics in your book, but people should buy it. I'll link to all that in all the places that you should. And let me so I was gonna say this after I wasn't recording, I'll say it anyway. Normally, I am overtly going at theology. And so there's like a distance between me and the topic, if that makes sense? Because there's like something in between and I don't know if I'm adequately explaining that well. But I feel like questioning someone about stories that are so personal. That's why I'm actually…like, I'm fairly tense. I don't know if you can see it or not. Because I want to handle your, your, you've written them. But still it feels almost as though it's an intrusion. Even though it's published in a book, I don't know if that makes sense at all? So, hopefully, people listening, you should read the book, and you should purchase the book. But where do you want people to go to do the things that they should be doing in the world and on whatever, where do people do things?

Julie Rodgers 40:34

I want people to listen to voices in their life that are, like humble, and who are comfortable with a lot of room for mystery, and who are open to being changed and being moved by the actual, like humans in their lives. And especially when those humans are different from them. And when they're more vulnerable, and when they are kind of somewhere on the margins of our society. And I want them to take joy in that, and to not feel fear. Because we see that God, all throughout Scripture, is continually for people who are sort of like pushed down and pushed out. And so you're actually, even if it feels uncomfortable and scary and you don't know the right lingo, or the right words, it's a really good and holy place to be- entering into relationships with people who have been cast aside or pushed out. And it's a place that creates such a possibility for for new life.

Seth Price 41:44

Mm hmm. And if they want to, so I love that answer. The question I was asking is, where do you want people to go if they want to follow you, buy the book, do the things. But it is a fantastic answer.

Julie Rodgers 41:55

Oh me! I was like how do people be in the world‽

Seth Price 41:59

Yeah, no, like, where do you want people to plug the things that you need to plug I just wanted to give you that, that space, if you'd like to.

Julie Rodgers 42:04

Oh that’s cool. Yeah! I think like anywhere that they if they want to go to my website, Julierodgers.com. They can it links to like my Instagram and Twitter and stuff like that. It's an easy way to keep up with me. It also links to my newsletter, which is where I think I'm doing the most interesting stuff. I get to talk about things that aren't just like my trauma, and sort of like I call it queer reflections on faith, public life, and chosen family. And I just get to sort of imagine all the ways that like, by nature of being in a body like mine in the world, all the ways that's a gift and what is possible to all of us that I only know because I grew up gay.

Seth Price 42:42

I said no more questions, but I lied. What do you mean “chosen family”?

Julie Rodgers 42:47

So my family of origin has mostly, like, rejected me; outright rejected me. And I found that that for so long was like this, this thought that felt like the status thing like I would cease to exist if that happened. But I found that there are all these other people out there, whether it's like friends, or just like sweet old women who come across my work or, you know, former colleagues who have really chosen me and said, like, I'm in this with you, and I'm not going anywhere. And I've chosen them and maybe I'm like a godparent to their kid now, or maybe we spend holidays together, but we're in it. And I found that to be a much more reliable than just like, Oh, you were born and share like this blood relation?

Seth Price 43:39

Yeah, no. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I thought that's where you were going. I just wanted to be sure I get that I have a close group of friends that if we don't speak every day, we speak every day. They're my people. Yeah, yeah. So I get that. 100% get that.

Julie, thank you so much for your time tonight. I have no idea what timezone you're in. But I know that it's late for you either way. So I appreciate your time. And, and yeah, thanks for being here.

Julie Rodgers 44:04

Thank you so much. It's really great chatting stuff, I appreciate it.

Seth Price 44:24

So in Julie's book Outlove, at about the middle, it's actually on page 171. So slightly over the middle. There's a line that has really stuck with me. And I think that it is a good sentence to focus on and thought to center on as we enter into stages of our lives that are stressful and worrying, fearful. And we're told that we're not allowed to be in that stage. We're not allowed to be what we need to be in the time that we live in. And that goes for more than gender and sexuality goes for so many different things. However, the line that Julie has written here is

how do you prepare yourself for the end of the only life you've ever known.

And I have thought about that line weekly, since I read it, and it has stuck with me.

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I am thankful that our world has voices like Julie's in it and countless others. They're a beacon of hope and light. For you, I pray that you are blessed. And you know that you're cherished and beloved. We'll talk soon.