Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Sy Hoekstra 0:07

We don't want to just hear from the same exact voices about race, right? Like if you know, for instance, people will tell you we’re talking about race, they want you to just preach the gospel. And you ask them who best to defines the gospel and they're gonna give you a bunch of people who own slaves. Right? And like, I don't… you know, if the gospel didn't stop Jonathan Edwards or George Whitfield from doing the things that they did, then there's something enormous missing there. Right? And also, if you actually want to engage with the entire church and genuinely be in communion with brothers and sisters of all different backgrounds, like I'm not going to sit down with Jonathan and be like, “Jonathan, let's learn about the gospel” from somebody who would have been genuinely okay with me owning you as property. Like that's absurd! We're not doing that! Right. So we're starting from the perspective of not what is the norm; oftentimes in America, we're going to take more seriously than anything else the people who are most affected by the problems that we've created, because they're going to best understand those problems. And they're going to be the ones who are best going to help you move away from them.

Seth Price 1:24

This is the first week that is back to back new episodes since the summer kind of hiatus happened. And I'm slightly nervous that I'm out of a rhythm. But I'm also excited to do new content. As we close out and begin the autumn and fall or summer. I don't actually know what time of the year it is. So yeah, I'm not going to do the normal, huge, long intro because I just really am excited for this conversation to happen. So I had sigh, Jonathan and Susie, who were on the show, gosh, right before the election happened, like October maybe of 2020. And it was a good conversation, and I have stayed in contact with them. followed their work. And they're doing some big things and so brought them back on. We have a much deeper conversation. Laugh a whole lot. Poke a little bit of fun at some people, mostly me. But yeah, I think you're gonna enjoy this. Here we go to overtake dogs toxic? Betty americanas. piece we recording separately. Do you want to record separately?

Jonathan W 2:49

No, I just I just knew I went away. And I didn't know if y'all had like decided something.

Seth Price 2:52

But we also decided that you were editing Jonathan.

Jonathan W 2:56

Gotta do what you got to do. Go up just like this. edited the text to post it?

Seth Price 3:08

Oh, goodness, no, I'll edit it. Why not? appreciate it? All right, here we go. sigh Susie, Jonathan, I'm not going to do last names because you're returning people returning humans. So welcome back to the show. How are the three of you? Great. Thanks

Sy Hoekstra 3:25

so much for having us.

Jonathan W 3:26

Yes. Again, for letting us be here. Yeah, good. excited to have this conversation.

Seth Price 3:31

So it's been, I just asked, and Jonathan did the math for the banker. It's been many months. Since Joe are on the show. I think the last time you were on. Everyone had written in a book. It had been a thing. And I will say I've heard conversations around the book. One of my good friends likes to reference articles from the book articles. That's writings. That thoughts are I don't know what the word is. More articles, essays. Yeah. All those words on the pages, he will reference back. And so yeah, definitely that. So what is new for each of the three of you? Because it's a new year. That's the same year but a new year. Why not?

Sy Hoekstra 4:12

We are so so we when we put out the book, our our Anthology, it was but for the listeners who didn't listen, last Monday's anthology about basically a lot of Christians writing about why they weren't voting for Donald Trump and the route to the last election. And so we made a little company just an LLC to for the purposes of publishing the book, and now we're doing other stuff. So we basically turned it into like a small media company. So we do have other books that we're planning to publish. We're very excited about some of them, but we are not quite at the point where we can say anything about like who who they are what we're doing yet, but we're very excited about some of those and then we also have a blog that consists like a weekly newsletter. And have some writing from the three of us, and hopefully some other people in future, and a weekly podcast that we're doing called shake the dust and all of it is kind of under the umbrella of leaving colonized faith for the kingdom of God and centering and elevating marginalized voices, those are kind of the big hitters that we're doing everything under.

Jonathan W 5:21

Yeah, I think coming off coming off the election, the reality that this is not going away, became very present and real for us, and I think became present and real for everybody post January sixth. And, you know, the continued election audits and things like that, that things are not going away. And I think for me, you know, joining up with science, Susie was probably like, just a gift during the pandemic, and post pandemic life, because I do not, didn't have a group of people to kind of lock arms with to engage in a sustainable, long term way to forge a new path towards liberation. Right? To say like, we are going to create a different collective story. And having studied I think we talked about this last time I was on, like, having studied Jerry Falwell and studied Billy Graham, and how the formation of the religious right, like if there's going to be resistance towards idolatry, it has to be just as organized and just as rigorous and just as expansive, if not more. And so I hope that ktf Press can be that like through the podcast, through the blog, through the books that we publish, there'll be a new universe of Google terms that come up when people search for Christians in America, the bursting that algorithm with some light as opposed to the nonsense that comes up now. Yeah,

Suzi Lahoud 6:55

I would say going after that there was definitely this massive push to get the anthology out, it was definitely a sprint, and kind of got that done in record time. But this is sort of a thing, you know, we need to be in this for the long haul, you can't just address these things with one book over a three month period, you really need to be willing to dig in and do the work in the long term. And then yeah, just adding to story. I mean, a lot of life has happened for the three of us. Since then, all three of us have moved. We've gone through all kinds of things with our kids. And I'm expecting another one in October. So it's a lot of stuff that we've been through just as friends and we kind of came to this realization that one there's just a lot of synergy and shared passion there. And to like Jonathan was saying it's been really life giving to have this fellowship we have for our meetings once a week, and we can't stop we have with each other like

Seth Price 7:49

yeah, for In addition, wait, wait, you have one for our meeting? Or for one our meetings. We have one for our meeting.

Sy Hoekstra 8:02

Guys, if it's for hours, and I haven't been noticing, I believe I know is our cutoff time is regularly at midnight. Yeah. So it's kinda like guys, I need to go to bed now. Yeah, and I send immediate text after the call.

Suzi Lahoud 8:22

But it's because it's where you know, we're talking business. But then we're also just sharing about what's going on in our lives and what's going on in the world and what's hard and what needs to be lamented. And, and so yeah, that's been really cool. So we're excited to share some of that with folks through the podcast through the newsletter and the blog and the other stuff we're doing.

Seth Price 8:41

Yeah, well, congrats on the upcoming baby. That's big. I have three humans are great, when they're not frustrating, but um, but yeah, that's, that's good. I want to lean in on that. So the three of you started a podcast, I don't have many other podcasters on but I'm curious, what did you think that that would look like? And what does it actually look like?

Jonathan W 9:02

See good question. I thought that it would look like more of us sharing about our journeys, in retrospect. But what is really pressed me is being willing and able to explore how other people's journeys are going to influence me and change my life. So like, if I'm I mean, I did not know having a conversation with with samosa levy was going to push against, like things that I thought about human rights and even global evangelicalism. Like I didn't know that like, sitting down and listening to my friends like Gabrielle and Milly, who are, you know, pastors and human rights lawyers like respectively, like, would would just not blow my mind but like, make We feel incredibly humbled and proud to be their friends. You know, like I am being changed by the work that we're doing. And I think that was something that I'm grateful for. But was was unexpected. You know,

Seth Price 10:14

what about the other two of you anything that you were expecting in your life that I didn't know, besides for our meetings, which, again, is ridiculous. I work at a bank, and I don't have four hour meetings.

Sy Hoekstra 10:28

It's not the real number, I run record and I run to banks, and I don't I'm gonna claim pregnancy brain, even three hours is ridiculous.

Seth Price 10:40

Like, that's a whole Lord of the Rings movie, like, like, that's, that's Interstellar with all of the credits. Like

Sy Hoekstra 10:52

I would say a big unexpected thing for me. But I mean, six months, I've stopped practicing law, I was doing that six months ago. And now I'm, you know, all into audio stuff. Like I've learned a whole new realm, I had no idea how to run a podcast before before we looked into this. And it's, it's actually been a lot of fun, I really enjoyed it. And just finding something for me, I think that is, like very personally fulfilling. And it's something that I actually kind of enjoyed doing on a day to day basis, that was experiences. But I've always kind of had a passion for, like, trying to help people live, I think with more integrity in their faith, like really trying to find ways in which their their faith did not like it kind of isn't, isn't actually lining up with the things that Jesus says and asked us to do. And unfortunately, a lot of places that you can do that in the kind of church in society that we have today. And I very much agree with Jonathan to that. It's It's making me like kind of articulate and think about things in in much more like focused and concentrated ways. And I think just making me better at explaining kind of my faith and my, my relationship with God, really, and understanding how that works, and actually drawing closer to God in the process.

Suzi Lahoud 12:19

Yeah, and shout out to site site has been phenomenal. He really has become, I feel like an expert in such a short period of time. And I was talking to my husband about the podcast, and he's like, wow, you're getting really excited about this. And I was like, Yeah, I mean, it's exciting, because psi is doing such a phenomenal job. Like it sounds legit. So that's been that's been cool to just, you know, hand over this, this fantastic content with all the amazing guests we've been able to have, and then let him do his thing. That's been such a blessing. And yeah, I think I didn't realize how much the stories and the testimonies and the witness of the people that we've had on the show would really become interwoven into the fabric of my life. Like, I feel like I'm referencing these conversations all the time that they're becoming seminal conversations, in my own walk. And yeah, I didn't, I didn't expect that. And even a specific example, I remember the day that we recorded with Reverend Dr. Lamar Hardwick. And we've been really excited to have him on the show. And he's been going through this difficult journey in his battle with cancer. And thankfully, he recently had a successful surgery. But yeah, he's been going through a lot and his book on disability in the church is so profound. And that ended up being a day that I was dealing with some really scary things with my pregnancy. And we came on and had this conversation just about what it means to be human and, and aspects of God and who he is. And his, the fact that he is, as as Reverend Hardwick puts it disabled because of what Christ went through on the cross. And those wounds are still there. And, and I came out of that conversation to say, I'm so deeply impacted, because I was dealing with the limitations of my own humanity and the fear that comes with that, and wanting to just deny that. And so yeah, it's been it's been transformative on a personal level in a way that I could not have anticipated.

Seth Price 14:19

I would echo all of that. I won't add much more to that because, but yeah, absolutely. I often find myself referencing back conversations that I've had many, many times and then I'm also always terrified that when I say things and like, that doesn't sound like my words. And then I'm like those not my words, but I've made them part of the way that like I see the world and I'm like, so maybe now they are my we're all just plagiarizing one another anyway. So yeah, one of you I don't know whom but as the I just stay with you so when y'all are talking about like one of the goals of ktf more as a press and is with the podcast and with everything else is to discuss like issues in and around, like surrounded with colonized faith. And I think that that word colonized gets thrown around quite a bit, especially like on Twitter, not as much on Facebook, at least maybe not with my friends, but definitely on Twitter, like, what is that? And how are you kind of going about it?

Suzi Lahoud 15:16

Yeah, so decolonizing your faith, it's, and I actually heard this on our on a recent podcast, Brandy Miller's podcast, reclaiming my theology, she had a guest that was talking about this, and some other academic, more academic theologians will make this distinction where a lot of folks are talking about deconstruction, but that's a little bit. decolonization is distinct in that it's, it is seriously looking at this colonial project that took place historically, where you have all of this, you know, theology coming out of Europe, and it's loaded with the racism, and patriarchy and economic exploitation that was wrapped up in the colonial project. And so that ended up infiltrating our faith in the way that we see God and the way that we think that we're supposed to follow Christ, and that still, in many ways, the dispensation that we're dealing with today, theologically, and so it's, it's about getting to the root of those ideas, and figuring out how do we extricate that, so that we can go back to the Jesus of Nazareth. And again, emphasizing you know, the tagline for our podcast is leaving colonized face for the kingdom of God, because there should be a destination there, you know, the point is not to just leave people out in the desert and be like, well, this stuff is stuff is garbage, and we're just gonna drop you off here. But But really, it is about coming to a place of, of greater intimacy with who Christ actually is, and what he actually taught. That is apart from what, you know, these colonial European, primarily white male philosophers and theologians have handed down to us and so yeah, so that's kind of what that that's about,

Jonathan W 17:06

can you check on this, like, you know, drill down, it's, it's a faith like a calling us faith, the faith that is comfortable with power and making people conform to that power? And I think it's a faith that is it's comfortable with racism and patriarchy and exploitative economic systems that you know, that Suzy just named, and then it makes those things necessary to engage with

Sy Hoekstra 17:28

Yeah, actually supports them isn't just comfortable with them.

Jonathan W 17:31

Yeah, like, and then I think, you know, there's almost what's happening now and I'm writing an essay about this is that they're, they're inextricably linked together. Right? And so, um, this is not a my notes, but I'm going to talk about a little bit like, essentially, what I think is that colonists faith, what you end up having happen as you there are custodians of colonialism, which is like by women and bipoc people who are pursuing whiteness. So we actually become people who enforce systems of patriarchy, and systems of abuse and violence and economic systems and structures. And we enforce like cultural hegemony, that is like we adopt the racism and the colorism in the supremacy as well, right. And then you have people who are the custodians like like us, that's not my word. That's another scholar. But, um, we become custodians of the colony, through implementing the systems and structures. And then there are the people who actually embody what Willie Jennings called, like the patch of familia, it's like the white male, self sufficient owner of things. And so we're all pursuing that ideal. And then the dominant culture like then gets to make that a holy thing. And that's where I think the colonizer joins the faith. And then this is supposedly God ordained. And I think that that's when it becomes destructive and eternal. And I think that's the thing that that it doesn't die with a person like it gets passed on, you know, in some praying that we could be a part of, not just a deconstruction, that that Susie said that brandy broke down so well on her podcast, but also the explicit decolonization I think

Seth Price 19:23

the history of civilization is littered with things that got her drained. are the things that we mistakenly thought that God ordained. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So what you were saying I don't know if it was either uses your job or you Jonathan but there's a there's a lyric in a song that I don't think is actually out yet. I don't actually care but I'm gonna read you the lyric. Because the guy writes music in a way that like literally like, rips at my heart and the best and the worst way so he's writing a song about like, what the church is telling people. Like, hey, we see you but you can't stay here. Like You gotta leave because you know, we got a budget. So like it reaches out from a bunch of different sections. But there's a part in here and it's about a girl named Jane. He says it says that Jane was born with a skin darker than her peers spent a cycle telling them the reason for her fears, no one seemed to know or care about the past. And then they showed her where they stood with every vote they cast, which then leads into the chorus it says, you know, then they said, Jane, thanks for your time. But there's just no room here for you when there's power on the line. And we know you're hurting, but we're not listening. We should help you out. But we don't really have that kind of time. So go work harder, and you'll be all fine. But you must go. Like, for some reason, when you said power, like, that's like, Hey, we heard you, we see you hurting? Whatever it is. But you can't stay here like, Yeah, right. You can't be in here.

Sy Hoekstra 20:54

I mean, tie a couple of things that that the other two said together. We had Lamar Hardwick on like Suzy was, was saying he was an autistic pastor who's a disability advocate. And, you know, he talked about how, basically, capitalism colonialism created this situation for black people, where they needed to understand that they understood that the point of them being in America was to produce and so they needed bodies to produce. So when they were disabled black people, they would have, you know, there's there's this whole kind of cultural like inheritance of having to hide that effect, because of like the cruelty that would come toward slaves who were disabled, because they weren't producing for the capitalist system. And then he would talk about how in his church and a lot of the churches that he talks to when he talks about how you do disability ministry, you know, one of the main questions is, like, what's going to be the return on investment, because this is expensive, right. And so he pulls out like the parable of the banquet from the Gospels and talking about who you should be concerned with and who you're, you know, that the people who you invite to your table shouldn't be the powerful shouldn't be the people who are just going to be able to repay you with the same money in the same honor as it should be the people who cost you something and like so. So just kind of, I think that's just one example of how we're trying to undo that and trying to get people to listen to people who are undoing that exact thing. That's that's put in that song. And I really want to hear that song comes out, let

Seth Price 22:20

me know, I'll ask him, maybe I'll send it to you. Actually, I'll send you a link. So I actually had him on the show last night, like I hosted, like a live zoom meeting. And he like played, he played the whole EP for whoever happened to show up. I'll send you the YouTube link. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's it's not like you're there in person, because again, he's singing through zoom. But it's still like this anyways. Yeah, like, I don't know, I, we didn't come here to talk about that album. But we could, but we won't. is one of those albums that when I heard it, like, there's so much in there that I'm like, Yeah, I know, people that have said that exact same thing to me in a podcast, because they felt safe to say it. And, you know, anyway. So I really am upset that you won't tell me who the authors are and what you're doing. But I do want to know what they're speaking about. Like, so what are some of the subjects that you'll plan to publish on? And like, what direction is that going in? The reason I ask is, I don't know how to say so. Like, literally, I watched the news today, while I was playing baseball with my kids in between, you know, we're practicing, you know, batting and whatnot. So they don't forget how to play by the time next spring comes. And I see that Mitch McConnell has been a jerk again, and basically said, Sorry, we don't care about voting rights for people. And then I see so many of my friends from the church being like, yes, that's what we stand for. We did it. So like, that's got to stop. And I don't know if this is really what you're tackling. But it reminds me so much of what we were all writing against in the book that was published last year. So what are some of the themes and topics that you hope ktf can kind of bring into the forefront so that people can really get upset as they wrestle with them? Because honestly, I think that that anks is part of the conversation. Maybe I'm wrong, at least it is for me.

Suzi Lahoud 24:05

Do you want to go ahead? Oh, sure. I'll jump in and then feel free to add on. Yeah, I mean, one thing we've been discussing, we do feel like a part of what we're trying to do is is promote I'm gonna use the term political literacy, but just because I know a lot of folks have been talking about religious literacy in the past decade or so, and and how we need to understand, you know, other faiths and what they believe in. And in this in a similar way, I feel like white evangelicals in the United States, we need a new dispensation in terms of how we engage on a policy level, and and a new way of understanding how our faith informs our politic. And of course, that was, you know, what the original anthology was all about. That's what you folks were writing about. And so this is continuation of that in a lot of ways, I would say, especially with the newsletter, where we're trying to help people engage with different sources outside of maybe what they're used to engaging with. And so some of it is pointing for folks towards explicitly Christian resources. And some of it, it's pointing folks towards other resources that aren't explicitly Christian. But how do we be in the world but not of it in a way that's not us just existing in our own little bubble? that historically has been a segregated bubble, where we're only engaging with people who looked like us who think like us? And, and that's so dangerous. And so, yeah, again, I would point folks to the newsletter for that piece. But then, of course, the the book projects that we're going to be working on, we'll be touching on that as well. And then, yeah, the podcast. I mean, this past week's episode, we interviewed sighs wife, whose was previously an immigration rights lawyer now works at NYU law, and someone who contributed to the anthology as a DACA. recipient, and just engaging with their both their personal and professional stories. And hearing from them, I think it's so important for folks to hear about these issues through story, because that's really how we will connect and be able to cross these divides and bridge these divides. And even just understand that that needs to happen. Because I think sometimes we bugs don't even know that we need to, we don't even know we're in a bubble. And we were discussing this too, we recently got to sit down with Professor Do you may the author of Jesus and john wayne, and she talks about the evangelical consumer culture that developed and that again, that's like, that's the hive that we're in. And so so we're kind of trying to push the the walls of that outward.

Sy Hoekstra 26:59

Yeah, I mean, in terms of subjects, we're, we're kind of, we're covering so many different things, because I think, like the, just in general, the kind of colonial theology that we're talking about touches on so many different issues, but like we've gone, you know, we had ritual loaders, talking about like anti racist pastoring, and emotional health and Sandra Meir van opstal, talking about, you know, issues that women of color have, as leaders in the church and we had pastor Hardwick talking about disability and we had, you know, the Lutz's, he was just talking about immigration, like, we're trying to go at a lot of different things, but from an angle where we want to take that seriously, we want to take more seriously than any other perspective, the perspective of the people who are actually being affected by the issues, the like, the the oppression, the ways that things are happening, the discrimination that's happening out there, right, so so we don't want to just hear from the same exact voices about race, right? Like if you know, for instance, people will tell you, you're trying to raise, they want you to just preach the gospel, and you ask them who best defines the gospel, they're gonna give you a bunch of people who own slaves, right. And like, I don't, that, you know, if the gospel didn't stop Jonathan Edwards or George Whitfield, from doing the things that they did, then I that's, that's not there's something enormous missing there. Right. And and also, if you actually want to engage with the entire church and genuinely be in communion with brothers and sisters of all different backgrounds, like I'm not going to sit down with Jonathan and be like, Jonathan, let's learn about the gospel from somebody who would have been genuinely okay with me owning us property. Like that's absurd. We're not doing that. Right. So we're starting from the perspective of not what is the norm, oftentimes in America, we're going to take more seriously than anything else. The people who are most affected by the problems that we've created, because they're going to best understand those problems. And they're going to be the ones who are best going to help you move away from them.

Jonathan W 28:56

Yeah, I think the podcast and the newsletter, I think, speak to that mitch mcconnell moment that you're talking about where you're like, so here's an example like a resource I want to post this week. And I've had like, thought about for a while was the long form podcast series about the voting rights in North Carolina, where the only actual strategize, voting fraud that is happening is net estates was perpetuated by the republican party in North Carolina. Like that's what it was, it actually wasn't democrats or people of color at all, like it was a political machine run by the religious right in North Carolina. Right. And so, but that's not the story that's out there. Right. But like that's going to be a newsletter. Because if we're going to have a conversation, we need to center and elevate the people who are actually doing that journalism. Right. And so I think the newsletter and the podcast kind of get at those like, oh, like, what's that thing we're talking about with policing? What's Oh, we're gonna talk about NPR through Live podcast from like, a couple months ago. They're like, laid it out. Right. And I think The books like particularly the two that are coming. I'm trying not to like slip the tackle. That's why size editing, right. But like, larger forms of systemic oppression that we could apply to today. So like, the Yeah, I'll stop because I don't want to say that. But you're just like with the anthology, the anthology you can pick up in five and 10 years, it'll still be applicable. And that's what books need to be, you know, and so that's these these next two books. Yeah, at least will be really I'm, I'm angry that that's I honestly,

Seth Price 30:43

I think that that's true. I think it's true heart that it said something like, I hate that my books are bestsellers, like this is stupid, like this should not in 15 years, these books should become obsolete. Like, Oh, look, we we learned our lesson. And that's, as I don't like that I agree with you that the anthology will still be relevant. It shouldn't be. So I don't I don't know. Okay, it's that time, you can try to fast forward. We'll see. Lord knows, maybe you'll get it right. Maybe you won't, and then you can rewind it 1015 seconds, it's going to be fine. But it's time to do the things. I'll be right back. I am curious, though, and I want to lean on that word that Suzy said. And any one of you can answer this. So you know, in the in the definition of dispensation, you know, likely that's a new system of order a new system of government, or a new system of church or a new system of how the you know, the way that we read the Bible? How do we pivot to a new dispensation, which I like that thought and I think that that's accurate, without becoming another version of fundamentalist on the opposite, like side of the coin, or just a new coin newly minted, freshly looked, and then we're like, Yeah, but you know, and we other people in the opposite way.

Sy Hoekstra 32:01

I'll be real brief on this and then leave the other two I and part of it is actually what we part of what we just said is the answer to this question, and I'll explain why. So like, white evangelicals and white, white Christians in America period have spent for ever like a century now dealing with this like split that if you grew up in a white church, you may have heard of between like fundamentalists, and modernists, or or or evangelicals in the social gospel, or whatever, people who care more about things that are politically on the left. People care about, you know, it's a political split. It's a theological split, it affects other people, because anything that like white people do, and because Christians affect other Christians, but it didn't actually happen in other churches, right. So like, with Jonathan and I both went to Urbana when we were in college, and they were talking endlessly about this divide. And for me, I was like, Oh, yes, this makes so much sense of my life. And Jonathan was like, What are they talking about? idea what this doesn't matter. I've never had any issue thinking that these, you know, social justice issues are like intertwined. It's all the same, right? So part of the answer of how you you have any paradigm is you is you flip, who you're most paying attention to, because the problem, one of the problems that we're dealing with, are not popular problem that came from us and problems that everybody else has either existed outside of, or figured out solutions to. Yeah, I'll stop there, you guys.

Jonathan W 33:44

I will say yes. And even to that, I will also say on the on a personal and relational level, I think there's three things that we need to resist. And I've said them before in other places, but I think resisting the pride, particularly like generational pride, like every yojo, we're going to do this better than them right. And so we define ourselves as superior to x y&z and so I think if we position ourselves as perpetual learners and pursuers of righteousness, and justice and the gospel and the Kingdom of God, as opposed to people who have gotten it, right, then we, and that and that I think gets at the consumer as part of it, right? Like, we all want to produce something that can be consumed by lots of people, right, as opposed to experience something that's worth sharing with others who are willing to listen. Right? And so I think resisting pride, and then resisting narcissism, like just being a self referencing group of people like the answer to one echo chamber is not another echo chamber, right? That are like you know, superseding another echo chamber like you know, like if cnn eight Fox News, we still have a problem, right? And so And vice versa for people who want to watch fox. The reality is like we have to create a new thing, which is why, you know, Willie Jennings like his book, Krishna imagination, other resources that I hope we, you know, can contribute to create new paradigms for leading, because leading does not include cook like just destroying those who disagree with you and creating this new system. Like this is not this is not what we're trying to do. That's what colonization does. Nothing, it's hard for people not to imagine leading differently. But I do think Jesus offers models for that and other cultures offer models for that in ways that are inherently de colonial in nature.

Suzi Lahoud 35:50

Yeah, and I'll add to that, just by referencing two of our podcast conversations explained earlier, I'm now want to do when we spoke to pastor Sander Maria van opstal, she talked about this scarcity mentality that is also downstream of white supremacy and, and the kind of colonized faith that we're trying to get away from. And, and so we're really trying to embrace this theology of so disclaimer, this is something I wrote my master's theses on but a theology of hospitality. So so how do we add more leaves to the table? How do we welcome more people into this space, as opposed to saying, you know, I'm going to be the new the new main voice, I'm going to be the new demagogue or whatever, it's, it's more how can we add more people to the conversation? And and I'm not going to deny that that danger that you referenced, isn't there? I mean, believe me, that's what keeps me up at night, among other things, but um, I gotta like keeping me up at night right now and more to come. But that's definitely one of them. So I think that's, you know, something that we are cognizant of, and need to be cognizant of. But I think part of it is, is again, having that moving away from the scarcity mentality that we need more voices at the table. And I think size answer was so great. And just an example of that went with the recent flare up and violence between Israel and Hamas, we were able to have Reverend Dr. month at Isaac on our podcast, which is such a privilege. And he's speaking as a Palestinian theologian, the Dean of Bethlehem Bible college. And so we're hearing some deep Palestinian theology, we're seeing the Bible through Palestinian eyes. And so those are the kinds of, again marginalized voices that we want to bring to the fore. Because there's so much that we have to learn we are we are so far behind when it comes to listening to our brothers and sisters all over the world. Because against I gave such a great example. But a lot of the issues that we're dealing with that we're like, oh, the church is dealing with this issue. Well, no, the white Evangelical Church is dealing with these issues. Yeah, a lot of other Christians in other places in the world aren't dealing with this. Not that any church is perfect in any part of the world. But, but again, we have a lot to learn. And we haven't done a very good job of listening. Since American has been the imperial power that it is.

Seth Price 38:16

Yeah, yeah. Just to piggyback on what you said, like a white, like the white Western church. So the reason I ask is like, so I was talking with a friend at work, and he's like, I don't understand he happens to be Muslim. And he's like, I don't understand why everybody cares about the Southern Baptist Convention, and tried to explain I was like, it's because they basically run the publishing industry for 80% of what most of the North American church consumes, because those are the books that are in the LifeWay Christian bookstores. Like like so what they vote on whether or not your Southern Baptist ends up being the crap that's in your like, in your life into You can't escape it. He's like, Oh, that. And then he tried to tell me why I should just do the cron instead. Because you know, and we went on a different tangent. And that was fun. We talked for hours. I love talking with him about the Quran. I love it is one of my favorite things to do. So, like six months from now, you're all hyper professional. podcasters. Right. Like, like you're making six figures podcasting, because that's why we all do this. Everybody is aware of that. The way you publish make the big bucks. Yeah, yeah. I I've talked to many authors. And I don't think that that is I think everyone loses money except for like four authors. I think that's that's the rule. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. One of my one of my friends like he literally published his book, but then he's like, yeah, I gotta go do my actual job. But he just writes because he can't stop writing. He just enjoys writing. Yeah. If you could hang it up in six months, not saying that you should. Like what does that look like? Like, what is it y'all growing? Or is it people listening and then taking that whether or not you know it and growing Is it watching certain denominational shifts come about because of conversations that maybe people are hearing? Like, what does that look like? As you're like, yeah, this is where I'd like to be. Six months is arbitrary. You call it six years? I don't actually care.

Jonathan W 40:15

Thanks. Master knows Christmas?

Seth Price 40:18

I don't know, is it? It is almost six months in three days. You know what? I don't? Christmas stresses me out. Let's say January. is a good question. It is Yeah. I feel like Oh, go ahead.

Jonathan W 40:37

Really fast. I said three things before and only said two. So the third thing is hurry. And so I think, I don't know. I think we need to resist the urge for things to happen quickly, and like happen now. Right? Because when, when we're prideful, which I long for us not to be prideful in what we're doing, I think we have something special to offer. And that was actually an email that we got back. Someone said, Please unsubscribe me, I'm so tired of Christians believing that they have the next best thing. That was a that was an email, we got back and said, I hope

Seth Price 41:18

you like that's not how email works. But we'll work we'll work on it for

Jonathan W 41:23

one thing. And second thing is a pride narcissism hurry. And like, if things are not different in six months, other than like, us having a number of paid subscribers so that we're able to pay marginalized voices to right. Like, that's, that's what I would want to be different in six months, if everything else stayed the same. Like, you know, we made our we made the podcast, we had our publishing contracts, and we have, you know, the office, the office that we have signed, like, I want that to be different, but how I would love it, if in six months, we were paying writers from marginalized communities to write I would love that, like, and that just takes subscribers, but but we already have the writers is that that would that would be? I think that'd be amazing. We're able to do that.

Sy Hoekstra 42:12

Yeah, Susie, you had some good.

Suzi Lahoud 42:16

I mean, this is an incomplete answer. But just thinking it's been neat, we've gotten one or two. Also emails that have been just really nice. I don't want to go into details just for the sake of these folks privacy, but just responses that that something that we put out really touched them in a really deep way that made them feel like they again, they they can have a seat at the table that there's room for them at the table. And, and that is what you want to see. That's what you want to hear. And so just seeing more of that, you know, not that folks need to come and tell us that we can feel good about ourselves. But I hope and I pray that we can continue to have that kind of impact on people's lives. Yeah, not just the another email in their inbox, you know, when the newsletter goes out, or not just not another podcast in the player, but that the conversations that we're having would be deeply meaningful and transformative to people. Yeah.

Sy Hoekstra 43:18

I think part of the vision for me is just creating a space that feels really different and a little bit disorienting, but in a good way. So so like, where people are able to bring their full selves, no matter who they are, to a space where they can have like very strong convictions. But at the same time, know that we're operating in a way where we're all going to be kind of humble and reciprocal, like, we're not going to say to any part of the body, I don't need you at any anybody from any political persuasion from any you know, we're going to be clear about what we believe and say, I disagree with you on this and that I'm gonna challenge you on, on these things that you think but but yeah, just just a space that feels like when you genuinely encounter Jesus in that way, right? Because that's how he feels. It's disorienting. It's different than what you feel a lot of times just in like the production of church services or Christian consumer culture. But it's like, you know that you belong there and you know, that you're going to be heard but you also know that you're going to be like made to the here and take other people's perspectives like seriously in a way that that you just otherwise don't in the rest of your life, like Jesus always pushes you to do that pushes you to stop centering yourself, pushes you to take seriously that, you know,

Seth Price 44:41

he the way that he took seriously so many people that that everyone around him wasn't. So I've had a lot of longer existential questions, and I always end with two and we're not there yet. So I thought I would ask a more selfish question. And Jonathan it may require your help. And so for people not listening, I'm going to link right here in the title Transcript and if not, people are gonna have to Google it. The first episode in which, at the end there, Jonathan decided to eat potato chips, I believe, on on the mic. And so for those that have been listening to the show recently, I continue to be self sustaining. Not necessarily to get rich, because that's not the point. I've had to put like ads in the show. And I let that you know, be based on your browser cookies, people. So you people that email me in wondering why you're getting commercials for X, Y, or Z? It's because you're searching for it in Google. That's not a me thing. That's a youth thing. That's how the internet works. Yeah, I don't, it's got nothing to do with me. But I thought I keep wondering how to like, you know, segue into that in the middle. And so I think when we're done with this, I'm going to need you to eat some potato chips into the microphone. And that's just going to become like the audio logo for the ad break there.

Jonathan W 45:55

Okay to advertise. I had a certain ship cringy. around in my entire life. They were crunchy. When I was listening. Yeah.

Seth Price 46:09

When I was listening, I think I like 15 minutes left, and you're like, did you get this all the way at the end? I'm like, not yet. So then I fired up. I'm like you got to be I'm driving down the road. And that's in surround sound. And my car's like, You got to be kidding.

Sy Hoekstra 46:23

It's great. It's great. So not in a way, we should probably clarify, it's not in the episode, we put recording bloopers at the end of the episode.

Seth Price 46:30

You should have left it in it would have been? Yeah, because the internet doesn't forget. I don't need you to do it. I'm gonna go in there. I'm gonna steal it. And I'm just gonna put it in there and email it to you. Now I'm teasing, maybe maybe I'm teasing.

Unknown 46:51

Text later be like, so get that lays What? What happened? Yeah. So

Seth Price 46:56

I began trying to find a way to phrase this question differently. Because every time I ask it, the context gets lost. So for each of the three of you, what do you feel like congregationally, or community, the people of the church need to begin speaking about, for fear that if they don't, because they're afraid to say something in church, for being ostracized or being kicked out of a community or being judged, like the church, a part of the church will die, and like wither away, if we can't figure out a way to come and speak honestly, all of our anks and fears and anxieties, or things that we're hopeful for. Like as a body, I don't necessarily care what the pastor needs to talk to people about. I'm more cared about, what do you feel like it's important that the people begin to speak up about one thing, Seth, just one day, you're like, Listen, listen, it's um, it's not a three hour meeting. So.

Sy Hoekstra 48:07

Okay, I think a lot of the stuff that we talk about falls under the heading of divestment from privilege. So I'm trying to summarize a lot of thoughts into one big idea. My humanities degrees said, I'll see your

Seth Price 48:25

one thing, and I will make it a run on sentence.

Sy Hoekstra 48:30

Thanks. Yeah, exactly. Um, you know, one of the main things that the Bible glorifies Jesus for doing is the giving up of privilege is the emptying himself of power and glory. And there is a huge section of the American church that lives in the opposite principle, effectively, right? It lives on the amassing of power for the sake of the gospel, allegedly, right? It's, we have to so so this becomes you amass power, and you protect power, even when it's under legitimate attack from people who have been harmed by it. Because you think that you need to have that power in order for the witness to be, like, still out there for your witness to get out there for people to hear the Word of God for people to be saved. And so I think like, one of the biggest things for me would be just Jesus telling us that like, if we don't spread the gospel, like the rocks are gonna cry out a fundamental thing that I think we need to let like sink into who we are, is that we are not necessary to anything God is doing. Never, we get to participate in it, and it's a privilege. But we are just unnecessary. And that doesn't mean that we're not loved that we're not like incredibly valuable, but it does mean that protecting yourself and protecting your own power is never something that you do for the sake of the gospel. And there's like a million different ways that I would apply that probably to all different kinds of problems that we're having. But that would be one very big thing for me.

Unknown 50:09

Going through this decision indicate that she has something or you just know,

Jonathan W 50:14

I just don't. It's not together yet. I'm still rolling the dough in my head trying to get it to look right. And I can't

Suzi Lahoud 50:28

start attacking you tell me if you're ready to bake some bread? Exactly. Um, yeah, I think I'll reference again, my first master's thesis that I wrote, not because it was great, it was a mess. But because the research that I did, it impacted me so deeply. And it was the theology of, again theology of hospitality. But another way that that's been referred to is philoxenia, so love of the stranger, and, and embracing those on the margins, those who are unlike us, those who are cast aside, and so it's definitely connected to what Skye was sharing, but really, reclaiming that history. And Reverend Reverend Hardwick talked about this, too, that historically, the church, it was Christians who started the first hospitals, and, and were some of the first ones involved in, in caring for for those who are sick and those who had disabilities and, and for, you know, the poor and indigent and, and it's so tragic that I feel like in so many ways, we've lost that, that ethic that is so prevalent in the gospels in what Christ preached when he talked about the kingdom of God, you know, when he talks about the parable of the banquet, and who's invited and, and so I really want to see the church get back to that space where, you know, I referred to it as a divestment of privilege. And Jonathan talked about power, so divesting that privilege and power and realizing that where we belong, is really on the margins. And again, that those are the voices that we need to listen to not unlike, you know, I'm gonna come from here and help you. But but realizing that that that is where God is present, that's where you're going to find Christ is on the margins. And so, if we can reclaim that truth, and that form of incarnation as the body of Christ, I think we'll be in a much better place, I think, I think the other things will start to fall into place.

Seth Price 52:47

I was the egg timer. Jonathan,

Jonathan W 52:50

I want to talk to you edit this shit out. I look, I love what sciences you have said. I am just stuck on your question.

Seth Price 53:01

Why? What do you mean?

Jonathan W 53:03

So if I read Revelation 18, and then the first two verses of revelation 19, the death is not bad. And I think, you know, so revelation 18 is essentially like a eulogy

Seth Price 53:19

for by my God.

Jonathan W 53:20

First set it Yeah, against Babylon. And then Babylon is destroyed. And revelation 19 there's, you know, hallelujah, salvation and glory, there's worship after Babylon is destroyed. And so I would hope that the death of Babylon and those who worship in Babylon for the sake of the prophets who have been killed by Babylon, because in the Scriptures, it says that Praise be to God because He has avenge the blood of the profits in the blood of the profits was in Babylon, right? That destruction is not bad. It is it is just a for these systems and things to fall. My hope is that it would create an urgency for us to preach a whole gospel that liberates people from Babylon. So I think what we have to talk about is Empire, which is just power and privilege, right? And so, I don't know which theologian has said it or what popular people have said it, but like, you know, there are churches that are dead already. They would continue going Sunday and doing the things and collecting money and doing art and God is not been there for years. Right. And so I just want to be able to talk about Empire. And then the things that come in, you can't get work to be compensation and work the Emperor can be power. But I think it's just like, I don't want to sit down with another student who is going to go home and be disowned by their parents, or rejected from community for saying like, hey, every person is made in the image of God. And that includes my friend who's Jewish, even though they aren't Christian, and then includes my friend who's gay and who's not Christian. That includes my black friend, even though they want to defund the police like they like it includes like these people who you now say, are worthy of our vitriol of violence and death, even in some cases, right? In the name of Jesus, calling my my pillow guy, right? Like we have to like, if we can do that, then I would hope that like the coming death of anybody who is in Babylon and worships Babylon, would actually spur us toward evangelism, that it's brave to go into these spaces to grow up if we don't talk about it, then then death is just pending. And then I mean, Paul would say they're already dead in in transgressions and sins, right.

Sy Hoekstra 56:17

So I think implicit in what I said about us not being necessary is like, churches, denominations, you know, multiple denominator, they can all fall away. Yeah. Right. And that does not that actually doesn't have to be a bad thing, which is right, like people get hurt in the process. No question. But I mean, there's there isn't like in the work that we're doing. We're not necessarily trying to save any like institution or power structure. Right, right. We're trying to be we're trying to leave for the, you know, God, right. Like, that's what we're trying to prop up as we're trying to be ambassadors of. Yeah,

Jonathan W 56:56

yeah. And like, yeah, like, I don't want to be I don't want to lament over Babylon. I guess don't. You knows. And I think when I think like when I think about, like, I work for a campus ministry. And if I think to myself, Oh, man, like, you know, if this ministry went away, that's all right. I remember sitting down with someone, and I wanted to start a movement when I was like, This young whippersnapper leader person, when personally, and he said, Jonathan, he said, Jonathan, if you're truly working at something, you should not want to be around 15 years. Because if you're still around, then you're actually going to start trying to save your institution and stop trying to solve the problem. He said to me, and yeah, and that was hard. But I agree with it now. In that, like, Yeah, what we're doing can pass away, we'll pass away. And that's all right. Yeah. Yeah.

Seth Price 57:52

So I've asked all three of you this already, but I'm gonna do it again. Why not? I asked it when we spoke last time, and it's been long enough. And you've done enough podcast episodes that you probably have forgotten, but I haven't for each of the three of you in no particular order. If you want to wrap words around God or the divine.

Sy Hoekstra 58:11

What is that? Oh, us, Jonathan, this. I don't think you asked Susie and I this actually,

Seth Price 58:18

well, then you want to roll? You want to do it? No, I don't. I may not have I don't know. I try to ask everyone. Did you do? Okay, well, I'm sorry if I forgotten Hey, honestly, my answer from six months ago is probably different today than then. So yeah. Cuz in my answer is not relevant at the time at the moment. So what would y'all what would y'all say to them?

Sy Hoekstra 58:50

I think the thing that I come back to all the time that I have for, like, I think throughout the whole time that I've been trying to follow you This is the notion that he's the way the truth and the life. Like those those words represent a lot to me both in my personal journey, but also just because of how, like wildly all consuming they are. For a person to be the way that you follow the truth that you pursue in the life that you live. And I don't, that doesn't mean that I do that. I do that all the time, or do a burpee like, it just means to to be I mean, you talked about wrapping words around the divine, I think it's, it's something that is three things like immediately come to mind. One is like, all consuming and mysterious and a lot of ways one, but then completely the opposite of that is that it's like everywhere. It's in everything that you do the most ordinary things and the most ordinary interactions that you have with people. And then the third thing is that in a lot avoidance corrective to me, I've talked about this in the podcast before, like me personally. You know, thinking about Jesus as truth. Like Jesus does not come to us and say that the truth is a series of statements that the truth is a bunch of ideas that you assent to. He comes to us and says, I am the truth, me as a person standing in front of me is the spirit with which you interact. And the way that you have to then throw away like, often notions that I grew up with, of what constitutes truth, and reform, what constitutes truth around a person or on a living entity or on a creator is I think, probably something that I'm never going to stop trying to figure out. But I'm perfectly happy to never be able to stop trying to figure that out. And just to punctuate that there was a motorcycle.

Suzi Lahoud 1:01:07

I'm gonna start with a cliche, but hopefully redeem it. I would say, God is the the air that I breathe. And what I mean by that is, first of all, one of the most powerful things I heard when I was in seminary was a professor talking about how if we think about the Holy Spirit, we've, we really put the Holy Spirit into a box. But really, if you look in the Bible, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of life. So wherever there is life, that's what the Holy Spirit is. That's where he's at work. And, and so in that sense, inside was kind of touching on this, you know, God is he's animating everything that that is going on around me that is in me. But then also, I have to say, you know, we spend a lot of time critiquing these different ideas, and, and again, use that word dispensation that we were for me that I was raised in, but I do have to say, specifically with my parents, they did a phenomenal job of raising me in a way that I always understood that you live and you die for Christ. At the end of the day, he is all that we have. And, and I've seen that, in my own life. And sometimes it's frustrating sometimes, you know, I'll be honest, even doing this work. I'm like, I keep getting sucked into things like this, like, why can't I just go, have a normal life have a normal job, you know, have my nine to five and, and just not care about what happens with the church and that care about what kind of witness we're being for Christ globally, and, but I can't I can't walk away from that. That's all that really matters. That's all that I have. And I've seen that in other people's lives. I remember one time sitting with a Syrian refugee mom, in my old apartment in Lebanon. And this was a woman at the time, we thought she was a widow, she had two little kids, she ended up finding out that her husband had had abandoned her just couldn't handle what was happening with their family with the poverty and the desperation. And so he he took off. And she, her situation was one of the toughest situations that we've seen. And she had come over, just to sit and talk. But she had experienced Christ in a really profound way. And she said, You know, I used to envy people who have things who have money, who are able to care for their kids. But now that I've experienced God in the way that I have, I realized that other people who have things, who have wealth, who have possessions, they should envy me because they'll never experience God, being there for them in the way that I've experienced him in my want, and in my need. And I knew that it was true. I knew that she had seen God in a way that I I will probably never seen see him she had felt his presence in her life in a way that I will probably never experience. And so he's not just all that I have. He's all that any of us. Yeah. Yeah,

Jonathan W 1:04:32

I think amen to all of that. And I think the only thing that, that the first thing that came to mind when you said that was the emotions that I felt when you asked that question last time where I'm like, right there. And I think that the way that I talked about God during that time When you ask me was something that was very familiar to me. But the way that I'm experiencing God now is unfamiliar to me. So I'm not used to experiencing god. Oh, no how to say this and have it mean, but I want to say but like, personally, and intimately, not powerfully, so I'm used to experiencing God's power. So casting out demons, healing people, miracle stuff. Um, what's happening now is like, God is not judging me. God is not condemning me. God is not supervising me. God is not evaluating me. God is not hovering over me, waiting for me to break down so that he can like, fix it. And then like, give me directions I can go try harder again. like God is not an overseer on the ministry plantation that I have on to work for him. He's just not. And that is. It's just, I just, I don't know how to function with a god. Which you know, Jesus and john wayne, when we interviewed Kristin COVID. The man I don't know what to do with that God that just wants to sit with me. But still waters, green pastures and all that like that. joined with all of the grander and stuff like it's the Isaiah six, distant, close, intimate, but far away and high and lifted up and near to us. Our Father in heaven, right. intimate our father. See that habit? Yeah. It's overwhelming. And yeah, yeah.

Seth Price 1:07:25

Thank you all for that. I'm aware of how hard that question is. I'm also equally glad that I'm not usually answering it. So. Yeah. Yeah. At least not here. So where, so people need to go to the places. And you'll probably have more places now than the last time that we spoke. So where do people do the things that the people should be doing? I don't even know if that's a real sentence.

Jonathan W 1:07:54

That was words, it was, you know, two clauses with verbs. I would love for people to go to ktf, press calm and subscribe, like, so excited about the newsletters that come out each week, the resources that are there, go there, subscribe, so you can pay writers and just engage with leaders that are overlooked in voices that are pushed to the side and yeah, some really beautiful, amazing resources and people that deserve our attention. So kcf, press calm.

Sy Hoekstra 1:08:31

Yeah, and the social stuff on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter is just that ktf Press.

Seth Price 1:08:37

Another plug for people listening. I don't know where to link to the newsletter. I'll find it by the time this episode comes out. But I will say I get the newsletter. I read it. One of my favorite things is you're probably gonna like this one. The other two is I really think I prefer your recommendations. Specifically though, right? Yeah. Like, every so every time like I read it, I'm like, I don't know what this is. So like, your most recent one, like the like there was a useful like explainer from some center for something about the about the for the people act, and like, so I'm reading that and I'm like, didn't know, didn't know. Didn't didn't know any of this. Now, I feel stupid. But now I know. That's not the goal. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, just evaluating myself. I'm like, I probably should have known, but I just invest my time and other things. And my things seem to be more in the vein of you, Susan, you Jonathan so so I like you, you bring a different portion to the playground. Like I don't normally eat that. That's not I don't eat things with color. Like I only eat fried foods and potatoes, you know? Delicious. Yeah. So So, so So for people listening, do subscribe to the newsletter, because your experience may vary from one of the other from one of the other authors. So thank all three of you, Susie, appreciate your time. Say thanks for your time, Jonathan. Thanks for your time as well. I know that y'all are all extremely busy. And yeah, it's been a pleasure having you back on.

Sy Hoekstra 1:10:03

Appreciate it. Thank you so much for having us. They certainly appreciate your time. Thank you for hosting us. You are welcome. Well made for each other.

Seth Price 1:10:21

This show is, you know, created and edited by me. But it is produced by the patrons of the show, and I am so very thankful for those people there, I do have a goal. Still, I'd like to try to get somewhere close to 100 patrons at that level, it should make things a little bit easier. And I may actually be able to pay someone to come on and help me do some of the things that I do, which will just allow the show to do new and more things. So if you've been on the fence, and you feel like yeah, I could get behind this for a couple bucks a month. That's literally all that talking about. Consider that you'll find links to that in the show notes, as well as at the website. I do love it when you give me feedback. So rate and review the show I do read those and email me as well. And as always, if you're unable to financially support the show, that's totally fine. Just share it with a friend put on social media. You can find all the links to everything in the show notes. I hope that you are having an amazing month so far. We'll talk soon be blessed

Unknown 1:11:25

me