Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

Terence Lester 0:09

Man, I wish people in church or people in the congregation's, would talk more about how churches sometimes use poor people to feel good about themselves. And the reason I say that is because obviously, with the work that I do for my organization we always have a lot of faith based communities get involved and they come in, they swoop in, and they throw a bunch of money and stuff. And, you know, everybody's happy, and they take pictures and then they go back, and nobody ever sees them again. And I'll never forget having a conversation with a kid who received a bike for Christmas because his church wanted to donate bikes, because that was cute, and the young man didn't even know how to ride a bike because nobody ever taught him.

Seth Price 1:22

Hey, there, how is everyone? So I'm embarrassed. See, I was on vacation with my family last week. And the time of the vacation is irrelevant. So I wanted to apologize to everyone. I had intended to be much better planned for last Monday's release of that what…minute and a half, three minute episode there that I put out. But you know, mistakes happen. Sometimes people leave a power cable and that's okay it actually forced me to do no work and to stay on vacation. But um, anyway, that out of the way. I’m excited to be back. I am recharged, and vacation was good. And I hope that your summer is going well. For me, kids go back to school here in a few weeks. And that's insane. So yeah, a couple quick announcements. So the store is backup merchandise is their patron supporters, you do get a discount. So before you buy anything, reach out to me, make sure you've got that code. If not, there's at least two new designs in there. I've commissioned a few more because I'm not the best artist. And in church today, I had another idea for something else that I'd like to have done, I'll have to see if I can draw it up and then find someone that is more talented than me to make it a reality. But that is there.

Before we get going, the normal podcast thing, you know, rate and review the show, it helps tremendously. And I also really wanted to say thank you to jack, welcome to the community here on Patreon. I'm excited to have you if you haven't joined him and the other people like him. They're brilliant people. They wouldn't make a mistake. Right? And you should join in with them. That is out of the way.

So Terence Lester and I had a conversation one day before work, and I loved it. Now full disclosure, I brought him on to talk about his book and we skirted the edges. I've since then read the book. And it is amazing. It is very good. But we skirted the edges of it because I was not able to read his full book before we chatted. And I'm embarrassed to say so, because that's one of my goals, but it just didn't happen because life got in the way. But the conversation was great. I got a lot out of it. I hope that you do. And here we go. Terence Lester.

Seth Price 4:01

Here we go. Correct me if I’m wrong, Terence, you’ve got like 5 degrees right? Or 17 degrees? Something like that? (Terence laughs)

Terence Lester 4:08

Seth, man, I have four degrees. And I'm currently in a Ph. D. program. So I'm halfway through that. Studying public policy and social change.

Seth Price 4:19

I just wanted to make sure that I introduced you correctly. You know if you're a doctor, I want to lean into that, so I guess you're a master then but I don't know what the right maybe maybe I don't know, you're a lot of things. So what would you say to people that are you know, by the way, let me back up. Welcome to the show. I don't know what happened. I think our easy chat at the beginning kind of got me out of my normal rhythm there. But welcome to the show. And what would you say to people when they're like I don't know who? Like I saw the name in the little iTunes show notes. So this dude's name is Terence but who is that like what are you and maybe more importantly, why are you that?

Terence Lester 4:57

Yeah. Wow, that's a loaded question. (Seth laughs) I think we have built the rapport before we actually started. But, man, I don't normally like to describe myself in terms of things that I've accomplished, or my education. If I was to describe myself, I would like to describe myself based upon the things that are passions for me. I am passionate about my wife, who have been married, going on 15 years in August we’ll celebrate 15 years, we married really young. I'm passionate about my children, my children are my legacy. I oftentimes tell people that I'm hustling for my last name and not my first. And I mean that through and through. I want my kids to be able to look at the life that I am living, the life that my wife is living, and feel a sense of empowerment from our family structure, and our core values, and what we stand for.

I am passionate about service specifically to those who are living on the margins of society or those persons who have been made invisible through laws, and ordinances, and political and social rhetoric. And I am also passionate about, man, just being a good neighbor to all people. And when I say “good neighbor”, I'm talking about being a neighbor to all persons in a community and extending tables as instead of building walls. So that's what I'm passionate about.

Seth Price 6:51

Yeah. So my wife and I just celebrated our 15th I have no idea when this will air but we're in the middle part of June here. So we had our 15th the first week of June there. It was great. Grandma watched all the kids at my house. I didn't have to pay for childcare or dog care. Well, I always got to pay for childcare. You lose your spot, you know, because I got to be at work normally. But yeah, so I don't know how old you are. Your skin looks younger than mine. Maybe you've been out in the sun less I don't, I don't think so. So I don't think that you could have gotten married too young because I feel like just looking at you we've got to be close. And I don't want to call myself old yet. I'm not willing to do that. How old are you Terence?

Terence Lester 7:30

I am 38 years old.

Seth Price 7:33

Yeah, definitely. I just turned 39 in May. So yeah, I didn't get married young and nor am I old so happy 15th early man 15 is a good year. 15 is a good year.

Terence Lester 7:42

For sure.

Seth Price 7:43

So the publisher of your book, you know, they send me this book jacket like as a PDF right? And in that you're like all cleaned up and I gotta say like, I prefer this haircut and that beard I'm a beard dude and people that aren't you know, on Patreon can't see the video but are you gonna keep this like when when you when you back out and about like, is this a thing? I like this. This is much nicer than that that like that was a PhD headshot for like a faculty listing is what that was.

Terence Lester 8:14 (laughs)

Right. Yeah, I mean, I am settling into the hair growth. I love the beard now.

Seth Price 8:25

Saves a lot of time.

Terence Lester 8:26

Yeah, I’m growing my hair out. So I'm thinking I'm going to sit with this a while.

Seth Price 8:35

(Chuckles) I like it. So there is a method to that madness. So one of the things of my stalking and sleuthing on the internet is you wrote a blog post recently, and you referenced your current hairstyle. And I have quite a few friends that happen to not be white. And they've also told me about things like that and like educating their kids and you do a lot of things. You were underselling yourself and your little who am I and what am I. Like you work at an intersection of like pastoral care, social work, justice, advocacy, I would argue maybe a prophetic voice. Like you've done a lot of things. And maybe, you can correct me if I'm wrong, if you feel like any of those are incorrect. But can you give some context and I'll link, I do a transcript for the show as well, I'll link for people that can't listen, that want to read it. I'll link to it right here, right there. That nice word here will be linked. But for those listening I'd like to kind of start there because I think it would give a good perspective to dive off into some of the things I want to talk about as we launch into you got a book that just released and some of the work that you do and kind of why you do some of the work that you do.

Terence Lester 9:41

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Man, I am always a person that likes to talk about the intersection of my racial identity and culture with being synonymous with my faith. Because I am a black man in America. And I have never had the privilege of separating who I am, my racial identity, from my faith. I can’t separate those two things. I follow Jesus and I still can be mistreated. I follow Jesus but I still can walk into a restaurant, to stand in line to purchase healthy food, and then have the manager, like I was talking about in this blog, come over to me and suddenly harassed me. Looking at my hair, asking me what am I doing here? Why have I chosen to sit in a public setting? When I look around I see people, who are white, sitting at other tables or not being asked these types of questions. The security guard comes over, as if I am causing some type of trouble.

Seth Price 11:03

Sitting there.

Terence Lester 11:05

Yeah! I was sitting there. I was even asked if I had paid for my food and I had to reach in my pocket and produce the receipt. But it started to make me realize that in certain settings, that even as a person who is pursuing a PhD, has multiple degrees, literally I give my life sacrificially to be proximate and present with community of persons who are without homes. None of that matters because all persons see is my skin color or how I wear my hair. And it's always interesting being in those circumstances because when you're going through it, it feels very traumatizing and shocking. But, later, you get a chance to process what happened to pull out or mine out some type of lesson to communicate to a much larger audience.

And that's what I try to do with how I live my life or the personal experiences that I go through. I'm always looking for ways to take moments and turn them into teaching moments for other people. And so if you have been discriminatory towards a person of color who has had longer hair, or natural hair, I would definitely encourage you to be very conscious, and be aware of your mannerisms and your behaviors and things that could be damaging to persons who should also be included.

Seth Price 12:40

Yeah. Can I ask hopefully inappropriate but definitely in an ignorant question. Because my kids have asked me this before because we'll talk about implicit and unconscious biases. We've talked about this for their daycare, for their school, for our neighbors. Like we live right next door to a gentleman his name, I'm not gonna say his name because he didn't give me permission. That happens to be black. The guy before him was not black and we have just a good relationship. It doesn't really matter who because, you know, he's good people. I like him. He's very kind he is he loves on my kids sometimes when they're out there playing so I’ve got no issues with him. But as a person that I've never had to deal with that Terrance like, I was born with the right amount of pigmentation that for the most part people leave me alone. What is the role of someone else sitting in the setting that you're in, or really in any setting, that hopefully claims to be a Christian so we're supposed to love everyone and do what we're supposed to be doing. And even if they don't, I think that uh, you know, the morality of the world would say, that's not how we treat people. What should someone like me do? Like if I'm observing that happen like, what is the right response?

Terence Lester 13:55

Mmm

Yeah. You know, you brought up those two forms of biases. I'll just start with the unconscious bias. There was it was years ago when ml King was talking about the differences between de jure discrimination and de facto discrimination. De jure discrimination had to do with laws that were actually put in place that discriminated against black people in this country. You can't drink at this water fountain. You can't vote. You have to have a certain amount of education to fill out a voter registration card. I mean, Black Codes, all of the laws that emerged from Jim Crowism. And so that was being discriminated against by law.

Well, when some of those laws begin to be wiped away and abolished that didn't mean that the behaviors or the posture of heart changed, right? That's when it became de facto. De facto describes the behaviors and the practices, or the disposition, that still embodies the laws that weren't in existence anymore. And I think, unconsciously, a lot of the behaviors and practices have been passed down; and subconsciously it is still a form of discrimination that persons of color have to go through whether you know it or not it's just been embedded within the context of culture. As a black man, I would like to see my white counterparts or my white persons that stand in solidarity with the struggle, speak up.

Seth Price 15:53

Like in the moment? Like right there in the moment?

Terence Lester 15:55

In the moment! Right there! Think about it, I was sitting at this table and I went from being a patron, or somebody who is patronizing this business, to being a person who is on display. And nobody said nothing! I became this weird character in a, you know, metaphorical stage play, if you will. And I was becoming entertainment to people as opposed to people leaning in and speaking up.

I think, after speaking up, this whole notion of creating these type of rhythmic practices in your life where you are doing things that are outside of your normal routine is appropriate. For instance, I was giving a talk the other day and one of the questions came up and they were like, Well, how do I escape my bubble? And I'm like, Well, the only reason you're in the bubble is because you're doing things that are routine for your bubble. Go outside of your comfort zone. If you shop at a white coffee shop go to another part of town where you can purchase coffee in the community that is not your own. What I'm basically talking about is, you know, starting to develop this idea of what proximity and presence really means. But you have to start with speaking up.

Seth Price 17:30

See, it's like you're a professional speaker, because where I wanted to lean was your new book, which again, I told you, I think before we recorded that I haven't had the ability to read more than the first chapter. And I don't ever ask first chapter questions, Terence. Because I feel like that's where people that did not read the book, like they just put in the minimal amount of effort. (Terence laughs) And then also full disclosure, I usually read every single word of whatever we're going to talk about before I do because your time is valuable, you know. So that's why I want to be so upfront with that.

But your new book, from what I can tell, and from videos that I've watched, and other people writing about what you know, writing about the book, and the endorsement successfully from Father Boyle, like, you're you're making the case that like proximity is, is the way of life that we need to get to like community is the way of life. But I'd like to start maybe, and let me back up. So the book is When We Stand: The Power of Seeking Justice Together. That way, you don't have to say it. And you know, because you know, why not? But I don't think that most people have a good concept for what community is. I think most people say community is the people that I see day in and day out which is slightly different from what you're saying, for someone trying to actually help bring a little bit more shalom into the world, to use a fancy word. But since you've got 17 degrees, we’re there. I do not, but I've read a lot of books, (Terence laughs) like how would you define community in the sense that you want people to kind of understand that for the work that you do?

Terence Lester 18:57

Yeah, I think community is something that has been abused, well the term itself, because we have to ask, you know, whose community? Are we talking about the community within the context of a dense neighborhood that has redeveloped homes, that has gates around their subdivision? Are we talking about that community? Or are we talking about the community that has a private school, also in the same dense neighborhood, that looks like a college campus but it's for K - 12 students, but you know, block over is a food desert for those other “residents” in the community? So we always have to start with who's community.

And I start there because when I talk about community, I am talking about the whole community. I'm talking about when persons within the context of that community have been made aware that they are not the only ones in the community. I've been asked several times about people without an address and how do you build relationships and be proximate to people who may be impoverished. And I normally respond with a conversation that I had with a well known friend of mine. He was talking about how he had the privilege of uprooting out of a suburbian neighborhood and moving into a really dense area. He's been there for 40 years. And before he moved into this community he always saw persons who struggle with poverty and, you know, lack of access as being persons who were lazy. And, you know, not wanting to put in hard work.

But then he said he moved closer in proximity, and slowly, the struggles of the community became his own struggles. That when he was in church with his neighbors who probably didn't bring in the same amount of income that he brought in but he started to hear the concerns of rents, mortgages, and rent payments being raised, because the area was being gentrified. That they were literally in church praying to God that they would make it through and have enough to cover the inflation. But still knowing that they probably wouldn't and they would be displaced because of the gentrification. He said their concerns became his concerns.

And when I see community I'm talking about is this shared sense of humanity and this shared sense of togetherness within the context of community, and it includes everyone in it, not just those who have been isolated.

Seth Price 22:11

Yeah. Are you a fan of rap music, Terence?

Terence Lester 22:16

I am brother.

Seth Price 22:18

So my favorite, amongst my favorite, artists is Propaganda. And honestly, this is like, I think the third episode in a row. Now I'm not gonna release these in a row. So listeners won't probably catch up on that. And I might even edit this out, because that way it feels right, so all I've been doing is listening to his new album Terraform. I don't know if you've listened to that album or not. If you haven't, I think it's gonna…have you heard it?

Terence Lester 22:36

Not yet.

Seth Price 22:37

Dude, do it today. It's just six songs. I don't even know if that's technically an album. But it goes with the book that he just released, which I also haven't read. But his very first song reminds me a lot of what you just said. So I just read you the intro real quick. So he says,

Let me tell you about this shorthand mean, you use, it's how we decide if somebody is safe. There's talking points. That's how you know if they are in the fence or outside of the fence, whether you're safe or not. But I suggest a redo. Because like it or not, we are all that we've got.

Which that last line, like it or not, like, this is the community like, like it or not, we are all that we've got. My problems are your problems. My faith is maybe your faith, your faith is my faith. Your kids need to succeed, because I live here, like I live here, and your kids will one day help take care of me. And I'll help take care of them. You know what I mean, because I live here, regardless of their politics or whatever.

So your book, What are you getting at in that book? Again, I'm sure there's 250 pages there. So there's a lot there. What is the overarching narrative and the goal of the book as you're seeking to talk about community and justice?

Terence Lester 23:45

Yeah, that true justice happens when persons decide to come together. I take a lot of ML Kings writings, when he uses languages, like world house or global village, or interconnectedness. There's a sermon that he gave in 1967 is a Christmas sermon, where he's talking about when you wake up in the morning, you can't start your day without having a global encounter. You know, he's talking about where you got your cup of coffee from, where did you get your shirt from? Who made that, you know, the decor in your house. He's helping us to see the entire world as an address, as opposed to only your physical address, helping us to understand that we are all in this life together.

And I take that framework and I'm trying to push people to see themselves as being contributors to the collective fabric of social change by connecting with their neighbors. Like I often ask what are you doing in your context, right around you, and many times people think that they don't have anything to offer, or that what they may offer is too small. What I'm suggesting is that if you give of your gifts or talents, or whatever it is that you bring to the table connected with other people's offerings, then that's how we truly start to see change happening within our local context.

And I think true change happens locally and it spreads across the country and across the globe. And most persons are overwhelmed if they try to tackle an entire issue by themselves, as opposed to locking arms with people right around them to make a difference right in their own communities.

Seth Price 25:51

Here's the thing. It's that time, you can hit the button if you want, right, you know, skip 30 seconds or skip a minute, but I will be right back.

Seth Price 26:27

My lights just flickered. I think the lights going bad. So it's probably going to happen again, we'll have a little strobe effect happening here. So I want to ask a question about self worth. And I keep being reminded of a conversation I had with Dr. Richard Beck, who's a psychologist out of Abilene Christian University, talked about how most people are averse to things that are not in their bubble. Like there's a spit test, like you take spit in your mouth right now and swallow it, you're fine. You spit in a Dixie cup and try to swallow it immediately. It's not even contaminated. It's still your spit, and you can't drink it. You can't do it, because it's left you. And so there's like a concept of self.

And so as you are witnessing with people, and you've got your organization Love Beyond Walls, right, that's the name of the organization that you helped start, I think you'll helped to start, and then hopefully partnering with churches and cities and mayors and city councils and maybe school boards. What has changed for your version of the concept of self, and in relation to other people's concept of self, to help repair that? Because I think most people ignore the people in our community, the homeless, the people disenfranchised, the people that were in the same place that you were, you know, while you're getting abused because you got the wrong haircut while you're trying to eat. You know, better than that. You got to clean up. How has your concept of self changed me over the last decades as you as you work through this work? And then how are you helping to communicate that to organizations and people that can then take that and maybe further that ministry?

Terence Lester 27:54

Yeah.

Man, I'll never forget having a conversation with, I was on staff at a church, and one of my best friends I was, I think I was like, 27 and one of my best friends was 68. His name was Mr. Gene. And Mr. Gene and I would sit around and like have coffee and and talk. And I’ll never forget him telling me that there were two types of people in life. He says there are accumulators. And then there are distributors. And he was talking about himself because he was in a phase of life where he was downsizing. And he was starting to distribute a bunch of stuff. And he says, “Man, I missed a bunch of years, collecting a bunch of stuff. And I could have been living my life, distributing, and living with open hands.” as Henri Nouwen talks about. And I'll never forget taking that and like just really sitting with that. And wanting that to shape, how I live my life, how I raise my family. To know that we aren't just being accumulators, right? We're not just focused on, you know, amassing a bunch of stuff or amassing a bunch of titles and just like being about ourselves, but we are seeking to understand how can we take those things that we have been graced to possess and steward and be distributors of goodness and justice, and all of those things in the world around us. And so that is at the core of who I am.

So when I walk into spaces I'm communicating messages that call people to think outside of themselves, to think about what's around them, to push back against this psychology bias that you're talking about, to push back against this notion of just being about self. Because I think we have all of those messages around us all the time. To be about yourself to amass bunch of stuff. I mean, we're marketed to daily. And it creates a type of selfish and then different and apathetic culture. And normally when I go in, I am working with organizations and given talks and stuff, I'm trying to help people to see how they can be a good representation of what home is; and I define home, even in my last book, is a place where you feel seen accepted, and you feel like you belong.

How are you creating the space, or spaces, within the context of your life where people feel seen, accepted, and feel like they belong? And no matter if you have an address or not you're still a neighbor. As a matter of fact, you don't need an address to be considered a neighbor. In the words of Jesus, that all are worthy and that's what I love doing. That's my passion. And I said, that's the lens, bro.

Seth Price 31:10

How do I…how do…

I don't know how to ask this question in the best way. So I feel like I totter-teeter between intentionally doing it well, and then, unintentionally, not caring if I'm doing it well. And then realizing that and then trying to do it well. And I think a lot of that is because of the inputs coming in, you know, between Facebook, Twitter algorithms, the news, only telling me the things that are going to sell ads, so it's always the the most hyperbolic stuff and the most vitriolic stuff. So how does someone kind of sit and cut through all of that crap, for lack of a better word, and then like, focus on what matters? Like how do you practice things to kind of, “Okay, here's the line, the rest doesn't matter. Here's what does matter”?

Terence Lester 31:58

Yeah, man, I think, I don't know, I think I've just fashioned my mind to see diet, as being more than just food. Diet is essentially more than just food, it's what you watch, is what you consume. It's who you listen to, it's who you allow to influence you. It's the type of, you know, messages that you hold dear to your heart, it is the confirmation bias, sometimes, that's your only searching for things that, you know, affirm your core beliefs, it is not putting yourself in a place where you are challenged. And I've just always been a person to be very intentional about allowing the consumption of things to not just be about what I'm eating on a plate. There's some times where I'm really intentional about not being on social media a lot, although my accounts are set up where there's a rhythmic posting, I write a lot. There are times when I'm being intentional in the conversations that I'm having.

I love to have conversations with people who don't even think like me, which has been one of the hugest blessings in my life, because it gives me an opportunity not only to grow, but the challenge the ways that I think and open my heart up and posture myself to really wrestle with if something that I've been holding in my heart is true or false. And if it's false, and about come to that conclusion, being courageous enough to let it go, right. Which has been a really powerful thing of growth.

And then, for me, man, I'm constantly asking what will come of my life? It reminds me of that passage, that Jesus when he was talking about, I think he said, some words like, you know what profits a man to gain the whole world and then lose his soul? Well, I interpret that as, what are you going after? You know, what are your priorities. And for me, I've just always been a person that prioritized my life around things that I'm really passionate about. And created the margin in my life to literally give of myself to those passions. Most people have a lot of passions, and they are willing, they just don't have availability. It's not a matter of willingness it's a matter of availability. And I think that is a priority question that you're asking.

Seth Price 34:48

So I'm running up against you in a minute I actually have to go to work and I want to end with a couple longer form deep questions that you can answer in a sentence or you can answer in a book, it doesn't matter to me. One of them is I finally decided to just play on the sarcastic name of the title of the podcast. Because I figured why not? It's been there for long enough and I intentionally left it alone. And now I will.

So you have a lot of experiences that I think many people just don't experience. I mean, you spent, we skipped a lot of your story, like you spend time intentionally being homeless, so that you can get like that perspective. I mean, you've done things that most people don't do. I was watching one of the documentaries I think's on some website, like, literally, you're like now I'm just gonna go down here with a sandwich board and we're going to get this dude a job. Like you do things that don't…like they don't…that most people don't do. So what do you as a congregant of a faith community feel like we should be allowed to talk about at church, but we don't? And people are like, yeah, you can't say that at church. Like, we don't talk about that here. That's the wrong boat to be rocking. And then what if we did? Like, what would change?

Terence Lester 36:04

Yeah, gosh Seth! (Seth laughs). That is…that is the question of the hour. Man, you know, I think I would want to see churches talk more about…

Seth Price 36:19

…and I don't necessarily mean from the pulpit either. Like, I just mean anyone in that faith body.

Terence Lester 36:24

Anyone in the faith body?

Seth Price 36:27

Yeah. Like, I don't necessarily mean like the preacher telling people what to talk about…

Terence Lester 36:31

Yeah, that’s good.

Man, I wish people in church or people in the congregations would talk more about how churches sometimes use poor people to feel good about themselves. And the reason I say that is because obviously, with the work that I do for my organization, we always have a lot of faith based communities get involved. And they come in, they swoop in, and they throw a bunch of money at stuff. And, you know, everybody's happy, and they take pictures. And then they go back and nobody ever sees them again.

And I'll never forget having a conversation with a kid who received a bike for Christmas, because this church wanted to donate bikes, because that was cute. And the young man didn't even know how to ride a bike because nobody ever taught him. And that is the reason I'm talking about proximity and presence so much. You know, every now and then we'll have, you know, some congregants who will come and they'll be for the event, but the event grips their heart and it changes them. And they want to move from an event mindset to a lifestyle mindset. And they dwell, right.

And I think we need to have a real, intentional, conversation about how can we be more present and proximate and, you know, long lasting in communities as opposed to, specifically poor communities, as opposed to just pick and choosing, and then celebrating from (a) stage, we're patting ourselves on the back and said, we did the Jesus thing, but forgetting that Jesus dwelt among people.

Seth Price 38:20

Yeah, that is, that bike story, that is a powerful image, I think, for the for the posture of most people, especially people with some wealth and some power. And the reason, like when you said that, like, I got some goose bumps, you can't see the goose bumps because I got dressed up for this combo. Nobody told you there was a dress code, but there definitely is. So, my youngest daughter has a bike and she can't go on bike rides with us. And it's, it's, it's awful. And she'll tell you, I don't know how to ride the bike. And we try to show her, but there's a point where, you know, she's gotta want to, you know, we're trying to do it. But I can't imagine that the point of view of the child and especially the thing about that, like faith, like, like, we're out here trying to get people saved, and no one's out here trying to help people live in a community like that is so powerful. There's a lot there that that story is doing a lot more work, I'm gonna wrestle with that today. I like that a lot. Yeah, I like that a lot.

So I got one, maybe two more questions. And then I'll give you back your day. So when you try to describe like, what God is like, someone comes up and correctly asks, “Hey, I just, I don't want that junk. I just want to know when you try to say what God is like, what are you actually saying?” What are what are the words that you're wrapping around whatever that is?

Terence Lester 39:50

Mmmm!

That is a very, very deep question. It reminds me of the story of when I first started Love Beyond Walls my wife and kids were dropping me off underneath the bridge for me to actually live as one experiencing homelessness. I had a house at this point. And my family allowed me to live on the streets for over a month. Eating out of trash cans, sleeping on the bridges, being put out of shelters. I mean, struggling in the cold, having to stay up 24 to 48 hours to keep warm. I mean, going through having beer cans thrown at me all these different things. I'll never forget one night specifically it started raining had a windchill of like seven degrees. I'll walk over to my friends tent, his name was Tony. Tony had a terminal illness. And I asked him, I said, “Tony, man, how do you survive out here? It’s cold my toes feel like popsicles?” He goes into his tent. He gives me his last donated pair of socks. And he says, “Man, we just got to share it to make it.”

Man! I think that is what God is like!

God is love in the midst of struggle. God is sacrifice in the midst of crisis. God is one that brings people together. And God is one that when all of life has been stripped down to rubble love is the very thing that keeps you warm. You know, a lot of my friends underneath that bridge that same night stood around a campfire and we didn't have firewood and so we had to burn donated clothes, in this campfire, just to keep warm. And many of them talked about how churches would come and pass out flyers and everybody would leave. And when we started to talk about the reasons why I stayed they started to talk about Jesus in this way that was very different from the way that we hear Jesus in the church. And I'm not Jesus, I'm just a follower of Jesus. And he says, “Man, many of us would see more of God, if people dwelt with us, instead of left us”.

So when I talked about God and how to communicate God to people, specifically those without an address, I talk about God being God who dwells in the power of relationships. Yeah, and that's the most powerful expression that I can communicate to a person. Because what I'm saying is, you are so worth it that you are deserving of a community of people to see you and wrap their arms around you!

Seth Price 43:36

So I want to ask a question that you don't have to answer. And if you don't want to answer it all edited out, except for in this video, because, again, we've referenced I don't know how to do that. And I'm not going to learn. So I was stalking your Twitter timeline, and you put on there, that you're going to talk to NBC about Juneteenth this week. And that may have already happened. However, a lot of people that look like me learned about what Juneteenth was last year, because a lot of businesses finally put their “we will forfeit profitability”, you know, because this matters and Black Lives Matter, you know what I mean? So I'm curious if you would say, and again, this won't release in time for Juneteenth; because that's just not gonna happen. But I think it would still be relevant. Like, what is the impact of Juneteenth? Because I saw yesterday at least and I don't think it's signed into law yet. But it looks like like Congress has overwhelmingly said this is now a federal holiday. And maybe I'm wrong in that. Like, what is the impact of that? Just for someone and it doesn't even have to be related to the church or theology but since you're already preparing to talk to NBC, unless you already have I’m just curious what you would say to that. And the reason I say you don't have to answer that, as I know, that puts you on the spot and I don't want to make you speak like monolithically for all, everyone listening.

Terence Lester 44:54

Yes, yeah, well. So yeah, I got a chance to record some thoughts about Juneteenth and share that in a compilation that will come out later this week. You know, when I reflect on Juneteenth and what it means, I mean, personally, I mean, gosh, man…these enslaved Africans in Galveston, Texas, hear for the first time General Order Number Three, that declares their freedom, right?

Seth Price 45:32

A year ago.

Terence Lester 45:33

Yeah, and here's the thing, the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation happened three years before they heard this news. And so this whole idea of what freedom really meant for enslaved Africans is that it was a delayed freedom. And it needs to be recognized in my understanding of it, because it acknowledges the long road to struggle to freedom for black people in this country. But it also educates people about a freedom that was delayed. And I support it, because, you know, it gives me an opportunity to celebrate the collective history of heritage that speaks to the freedom of black people. It validates my existence, but it also pays homage to people, and my ancestors - or our ancestors - that who are bought in and enslaved and sold for profit. But it also commemorates this this moment, that their sacrifice was not in vain. And it also reminds us to think about how much more work we have to do in terms of providing what racial equity and racial justice in this country. And yeah, so that's my reflection on Juneteenth.

Seth Price 46:57

Yeah, “delayed” is the word there. Right? That was delayed recognition to this day was delayed and…

Terence Lester 47:03

Mmm! Delay freedom! Could you imagine being free and not even knowing it?

Seth Price 47:11

Again, no. No, no. But it does make me question that's where we're at. Like, that's where we've made it. And on the delayed timeline that's where we've made it. Like that took years to get delivered. And then that took what 200 to be recognized….

Terence Lester 47:31

That took two hundred years to recognize!

Seth Price 47":35

That time operates at a different level, which is really infuriating when you're wondering…alright, so what what gets delayed(ly) addressed maybe when my kids are my age? Like what are we finally going to address then? You know what I mean? I don't know. And that's not my voice to say, but it does make me wonder like, and I like your word delayed there. I hadn't really considered it that way at all. Where do you plug plug the places that people need to do the things that they should be doing or that they already should have been doing?

Terence Lester 48:09

Yeah. (laughs) Man, if people want to look up the work that we do with our organization, they can check out lovebeyondwalls.org. or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, @lovebeyondwalls. If they want to look me up, if they care to @imTerenceLester. And if you want to check out When We Stand, and you've been, you know, just overwhelmed with all of the injustices of the world and you're looking for a practical way to get involved in community checkout, When We Stand: The Power of Seeking Justice Together, wherever you buy books.

Seth Price 48:50

Thank you very much for your morning and for your time. And also for your still delayed breakfast. I’m just gonna lean on that there.

Terence Lester 48:57

No! That was intentional! It is intentional! (laughs)

Seth Price 49:13

That metaphor that Terence had about the way that many church bodies come into an area and basically giveaway bikes, like we throw money at problems, instead of throwing our hearts on the problems. And we'll say that our heart is in the right place. But honestly, we go back home, and we do what we want to do. We watch our movies, talk about on Netflix, pop back on the Facebook and totally forget about the people that we metaphorically and sometimes literally have given “bikes” to and we haven't done anything to help them use them. We're not equipping people, we're not equipping ourselves. And yeah, I've continued to wrestle with that but it was a joy to have Terrence on; I do want to say again, thank you so much to the producers of the show the patrons join in over there. And Remedy Drive as well, as always, thank you for your music in this show and thank you for your music in this episode.

With all that said, I hope that you are so well. That you're finding joy in new and unexpected places.

Be blessed.