Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Sho Baraka 0:08

I am just trying to create this challenge to folks that God doesn't place us anywhere just by happenstance - it is strategic. You are in the palace to be a blessing like Joseph, like Moses, like Esther, like Daniel, and ultimately like Jesus. You condescend and you give your life as a ransom for other folks.

Seth Price 0:46

Am I able to be really honest with you right now? I mean, of course, I can like right, I have the microphone, I’m the one that does the editing. But this right here is like the 17th take of the intro for the show, because I record these after I edit the show; the same thing with the outro. (And) I haven't even started the first take of that one. This one's been hard though.

So the guest is Sho Baraka today. And I had a ball. I (had) a legitimate fun time spending a bit of the day with him over the internet on Zoom. Now, I hope that that's a name that you know, if it's not, you need to hit pause right now, actually don't hit pause, finish listening to the episode then go down to the show notes and check out some of his work. So he does a lot of things, and his music, I remember when I heard it…I don't know, six or seven years ago, for the first time like his music man, it touched a chord with me. And I've listened ever since. I just love it.

But he has a voice that I love. And I really like the way that he tackles many, many topics. And so today, kind of, what you can look forward to-Sho has written a book of, I guess, theology, and prophecy, and narrative and a little bit of storytelling. And it is “good”. And that's a play on words, because the name of the book is He Saw That it Was Good, but it really is good. I mean, in his book show wrestles with questions, honestly. And does I think what I try to do with this show, give people permission to do hard questions and deal and wrestle with hard answers. Knowing that when we learn from that, it gives us more paths to go down and none of those are necessarily the right path; they are all good. Ahh! I’m not saying as well. So I'm going to stop here on whatever number this take is, we're just gonna roll the tape.

Seth Price 3:20

Sho Baraka, you don't know this, (but) I’ve been listening to your music…there was something about pianos..

Sho Baraka 3:26

“Pianos and Politics”?

Seth Price 3:38

Yeah, since then, Spotify said you might like this. And then since then I have. (Sho laughs ‘thank you spotify’) Yeah, you don't know that. Thank you. Oh, absolutely hit that follow button and make you some what half of a cent per stream, something like that. That's more than half a cent. But welcome to the show man. I'm glad you're here. And thanks for your patience and on the fly, I think on your book birthday, having to cancel on you. So I apologize for that. But thanks for being here this morning.

Sho Baraka 3:55

Oh, man, it's a pleasure. Thank you. I'm excited about the conversation.

Seth Price 4:00

Not everybody is watching the video. And not everybody will be familiar with you because Spotify has not yet recommended your music to them. (Sho laughs) And I have a couple of tracks that people if you want to email me I'll say listen to the schedule laugh and then you'll also be really angry and that's a good place I think for art to leave people.

Sho Baraka 4:16

I want to ask you what those songs are?

Seth Price 4:18

I'll have to pull them up. I don't have them memorized. But I do have them favorited like in a playlist gotcha. Yeah. You got me off track. (we both laugh) So when people know you're good with so who like what are you? Who are you? Why are you like what are the things that you think matter?

Sho Baraka 4:36

Yeah, I am. I just make things easy. I just call myself a polymath or renaissance man because I do a lot of things from music to writing to..I hate to call…I don't like the term “activist”, but you know, I guess you can say an activist. I studied film and television so I do a lot of work either behind the camera or in front of the camera. (I’m a) husband, father, autism dad. And why I am those things is I had parents who found that art was important. So they put, you know, certain poets and literature in front of me at a young age, kind of shaped who I was, but then I had older brothers who were huge into hip hop. And so that kind of cultivated this love and affection for, you know, making rhymes through music, not just through the written, through poetry. But hey, I can put these two words together and make this sound real cool.

And you know, my parents also were part of the Black Panther Party, well, my mother was. And so that's kind of cultivated in me this desire for justice and to be concerned with people around me. So that's where the activism comes from, if you will. But I grew up outside Los Angeles. So Hollywood, my aunt worked in Hollywood worked on a set of shows that some of these folks may not know, but like 227 and Gimme a Break!, Nell Carter and some other ones. So yeah and so being around sets and seeing shows being mad this created this indelible, like this, molding of wanting to tell stories to visual mediums. So that's kind of like who I am now, where I am. I also taught at a couple of universities. Hip Hop through our religion-politics through hip hop, I've, yeah, I can do this for all days, and I'll bore people to tears. I'm just pretty, I guess you could say I'm pretty dope.

Seth Price 6:53

(Laughs) Well, so that confidence there. So I have a question. So I, you know, cuz you got to prepare for these things. I went onto your Instagram. And I found some of your #Thursdaythoughts. And being that you are pretty dope. I found one from a few months ago, because it doesn't look, you've done these in a while. But then again, you've been launching a book and I'm sure you've done 9 billion podcasts because that's a book tours happen now anymore. And thanks for, again, for being here for that. But there's a #Thursdaythought one of your last ones that I watched, and there's a couple you know, someone watches someone this and I will say you've got quite the watch game. I just changed my watch face on my Apple Watch, because it's cheaper. It's free. But that's fine. You can keep on but you have on there that you understand that the plight of women, because you were hit on by a 6 and you're a 9. And since you're dope, I just kind of wanted to know, like, how do you arrange that scale? between 6 to 9? (Sho starts laughing)

Sho Baraka 7:47

Yeah, umm. A lot of different elements. There's a lot of variables you got to consider. So my wife, you know, on her off days, she's an eight.

And I'm not just saying that because she's my wife, you know, if she was here, I would you know, she's, she's definitely a nine but on a bad day. She's an eight. (Seth laughs)

But I tell her, I say “Ma'am, I just want to let you know, you go to you go to Walmart, and you're upset that men are hitting on you”. And I was like, “you know, you got to understand, 8’s, don't go shopping in Walmart. And so sometimes you got to stay in like, it's not just how you look is how you carry yourself as well”. (Breaks down laughing).

Eights go to, they go to they go to Whole Foods, they go to Targets. So it's also like, the type of way you care? You know…I’m just playing…I don't know. I mean, I just have a little fun. I say some things that I think have some truth in it. Some things that I would love to put out there and just create discussion as you kind of communicated earlier.

I think the way that art/comedy, it disarms people, it gives the opportunity to say some things and to present some, you know, some ideas that may not be easy to transmit in a lecture; or if it is easy to transmit a lecture, it's not as palatable for people to consume because it doesn't have a nice melody behind it or it's not metaphorical or allegorical. And so therefore, people are able to wrestle with these concepts in different ways.

I was recently talking about Nathan and David, how Nathan totally sets David up for this conversation. Nathan knew where he's going. Nathan knew he was going to rebuke David for his actions with Bathsheba and the killing of Uriah. But Nathan said, You know what, instead of me just coming out calling him a disgusting bastard. You know what I'm saying, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna share this story with him. And he's going to connect to this story, and he's gonna be the man that's…that's ridiculous. That person should be punished. He's like, Well, you know, that's you, David.

And in a lot of ways that's what you do at our you know, whether you're making you know, you're talking about beauty, you know, me being a nine and getting hit on ;). Or if you're talking about war if you're talking about violence and justice, you're saying like how can I put the listener in this position so that they see themselves very similar to what Jesus did with the Pharisees as they were going to stone other religious leaders that they were going to stone the prostitute. It's like, look, y'all out here doing the same stuff she's doing, but you've created law so that you can avoid the punishment. And so if you are better than this young lady, then go ahead and stone her. And they realize like now we're in the same predicament. And so art does that, storytelling does that.

Seth Price 10:37

What would your wife say that you are on your bad day?

Sho Baraka 10:43

(laughs!) I would like to think that she would say that I'm an 8, but I'm gonna have to go down to a I'm gonna have to go to a….

…six or seven. I would like to just, I would pray and hope to God, that she wouldn't say a six but I can deal with a seven.

Seth Price 11:00

He came on here, Sho came on here, to talk about a book.

Sho Baraka 11:04

The crazy thing is she's not going to give me a 9, I think she's gonna give me a nine. I think she's gonna say I'm an eight. If you pinned her down and you said…

You know, I think she'll give me a nine. I think she'll give me a nine. The only reason why I'm not getting a 10 is because I don't have the body of like a Michael B. Jordan. And so if I had that now, it'd be a 10. Easy!

Seth Price 11:26

If you got that contract though to be Apollo Creed. I'll bet you would when you put in the work.

Sho Baraka 11:31

Oh! That's a 10. She'll probably give me an 11 after that. She wishes it looks like that.

Seth Price 11:38

Grade on the curve.

Sho Baraka 11:40

Right.

Seth Price 11:41

So you wrote a book, the name actually He Saw That it Was Good. That's right, right?

Sho Baraka 11:46

Yep.

Seth Price 11:47

I want to walk through some of that. And then I always like to end with a few existential questions, which I feel like based on what you said you do that that will be fun. You start the book, I think the first word you say maybe it's not the first words is, “hello average, let me introduce you to awesome”. (Sho laughs) What is average for a normal American or for normal Christian, especially maybe in a different context? Because that that sentence struck me, I literally highlighted it. And I read it again, I’ve started saying it at work, which makes me come off as arrogant. And I don't, and I don't care. But I just want to begin by ripping that apart a bit. And then maybe we can get into some of the practices and some of the theology of the book and some other questions that I had from the book as well.

Sho Baraka 12:35

Yeah, okay. Um, I think that's a great, I think, honestly, if I'm not, I'm not stretching, I think the book in a lot of ways is addressing that posture. We’ll get probably into the weeds of this statement. But I think there's a lot of…there's a lot of…Christians out there who go to work on a nine to five, and they don't see themselves as God kind of instructed us to wake up and look at the day as a void, and to speak life over that void. And therefore we create life. We cultivate, we bring goodness into the world. And at the end of the day, God said it is blessed. He said, It is good. So he blesses it. And I think oftentimes, we go to work with this apathy with this, with this sense that my work doesn't really matter. I'm not really contributing to any real substantive change.

And so for me, what I want to do is to remove that sense of apathy from people, because that produces average, that produces mediocrity. Not in the sense of just how you approach work and the effort you give, but your theology. And if your theology is very average, in the sense that God doesn't really care over “this”, then you don't see your work as worship, you don't wake up and go to an everyday thinking like I…even if my work doesn't directly tie to some social good, like working at a hospital or feeding, you know, the homeless. The reality is the fact that you work in itself is worship. And you should approach it like that, because you're creating something that is a reflection of what you believe about your Creator. And so hopefully, you're saying, “Hello average. Let me introduce you to greatness”, it's not only a proclamation to your own self, but it's a proclamation to the world.

Seth Price 14:35

Do you think that everyone is an artist and what they do as a vocation or as artists set aside as a different vocation?

Sho Baraka 14:42

Yeah, I would agree with the latter. I would say the artist is a vocation. However, I think everybody creates everybody is they cultivate they're part of this idea. So I when I think about creating I think about Genesis 1:26-28 where God says, you know, “subdue the land, multiply. etc, etc”. And so therefore what I see one of the main directives from God's humanity is to be a part of creating, producing our cultivating the raw materials that God has given us. And everybody does that. There's not one person who doesn't participate in the cultivating of something, which means we build systems, we build societies, we build culture. And so if sin corrupts that then ultimately what we're saying is Jesus is calling us to redeem those things. And so yes, I would say, however, no artist is a vocation. But I would say every vocation creates.

Seth Price 15:41

Point of clarification, because I can't remember from the book. So you talk about Where's it at? I got my notes here, digital, here we go. So there's a part we talked about, you look good in red. And I'm sure because a couple things, that's like the first chapter. And so most people I think that read books or book interviews, don't read the full book. And so I'm sure you've been asked this question a lot. (Sho laughs)

I have questions from the end of the book, too. Because I refuse to talk to someone if I haven't read the full book about a book.

Sho Baraka 16:07

Thank you I appreciate that.

Seth Price 16:08

But I want to approach a question a different way. So in Look Good in Red, I know you're your dad. Because Because Google says things was like a football player in New Orleans, right? For the Saints, or maybe for somewhere else. Yeah. So wearing red in certain neighborhoods or communities, especially a community I grew up in Texas will cause some issues and I think you alluded to that in the book. But where are you at in your life? Like, how old were you?

Sho Baraka 16:31

Right now?

Seth Price 16:32

No, no, no. When you're learning to embrace the color?

Sho Baraka 16:39

I was, um, I think I'd say I think I was seven, eight years old around that time.

Seth Price 16:44

So that's still in LA or that's in Louisiana?

Sho Barka 16:46

That still is Southern Southern California.

Seth Price 16:48

Yeah, because the level of “don't wear red” escalates, I think from from LA, maybe to Louisiana.

Sho Baraka 16:54

Yeah! No…so I grew up, like around, you know, the Snoop Dogg era, his early years, you know, before Tupac got shot. And, you know, NWA was kind of falling apart, but they were still height. So gang violence was was everywhere. And it was popular colors, Boyz n the Hood movies like that. So yeah. Even if you didn't live necessarily in Los Angeles. There were particular neighborhoods you lived in and ou knew what colors you could and cannot wear?

Seth Price 17:25

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I had different colors being out in West Texas, with different environment. But, same thing.

Sho Baraka 17:34

Oh yeah.

Seth Price 17:35

So no, you talk about the impact of what we leave as inheritances and like inheriting the impact of embracing different things. I'm curious, though, what do you think you, and or we, as a nation, or as a country, as a church are, take that wherever you want, are leaving for the next generations? And probably not even really your kids? Like, I mean, like your grandkids? Like, what are we currently participating in and what do you think we're leaving for the next ones?

Sho Baraka 18:05

Mmmmm, I think we are leaving, you know, I think this this is a very successful and rich nation. So I do think we're leaving people financially; we're leaving people in, in some sort of economic wealth. But however, I do think we're leaving people socially bankrupt, spiritually bankrupt.

So there's a lot of resources that we know we have as a nation, there's opportunity like never before for all people. Some opportunities are easier than others, are easier for others, than they are for certain people. But there's, there's no reason why a particular person in this country can succeed, especially in comparison to other countries. That's because this country has you know, has great wealth, for all of its problems. There are great opportunities and in roads to get to these places. It's easier for people if you have connections and who you know, kind of families you grew up, where you live, what type of neighborhood you come from.

However, no matter where you are, no matter if you're of the, you know, your rich, middle class, lower class, I think we're handing down a spiritual deficiency that I think not only is caused by our political conversations, but I think social media has created a society that really wants things “now”. So we want to give people a lot of information without giving people a lot of wisdom. And I think until there's some sort of social media revolution, political, like not revolution in the sense that it needs to be violent, but a revival of sorts, that will cause people to remove themselves from the from the extremes of our political discourse to a more rooted place…I'm not sure my our grandkids will be in a place where they can sift through nuance. That they'll be courageous enough to speak against things that their best friends may hold to that may be wrong, if that makes sense? I think that right now, we measure ourselves, we categorize or label ourselves against our opposition for the most part. And I don't think that's a place or a posture that we should ever be. We shouldn't know just what we're against and just have anti-vision, we should have vision and we should know what we're for. And we should hold to ideas not based on who else holds them. But off the merit of its principles.

Seth Price 20:54

I don't know how to do that. I don't know. I know how to do that in person. Because it's almost required to be in community. I don't know how to do that with social media. And it's not Clubhouse. That's the latest revolution. But it's definitely not Clubhouse. I haven't even tried it. But I'm sure that it's not Clubhouse. You know, I don't…I don't know how to do that.

Sho Baraka 21:18

So in my book I talk about, you know, heroes and villains and how there's no such thing as that. How oftentimes we think of as individuals as fixed heroes and villains, like if a person is a hero, they're always hero, if the person is a villain. And the reality is, is that's not the case. People put themselves in situations to be heroes or villains. And oftentimes we can fluctuate or vacillate from a hero to a villain. The one thing I say is that, and I truly believe this, is I think people wake up with the audacity to say, “:you know what, today I want to make decisions that's going to put me in a position to help other people”. And David is very similar to David and woke up at times where he was like, I am going to put myself in this position to have courage and fight for people who are on the margins. But then there were times when David was like, I'm going to wake up this morning, and I am going to have sex with this beautiful woman.

Seth Price 22:08

I want that because because I'm a nine and she's a ten.

Sho Baraka 22:13

Exactly! David was, I'm pretty sure David was a ten.

Seth Price 22:16

When you're the king you are a 10 because you're the king.

Sho Baraka 22:20

Bathsheba would have to be a 10. Because if you saw it from the distance, you saw that…oh…that's a 10. (Seth laughs)

I mean if you have the courage to bathe outside knowing that people will see you…that’s gotta be 9-10 stuff. That's 9-10 stuff. Because if you ugly, just concealing yourself?

Seth Price 22:40

You know, yeah. So, you didn't necessarily talk about this specifically in the Bible, but I'd like to rip it apart. And you use the word vacillate? Because no, not the Bible. No, in your book, sorry. And you see, I got all excited about using a big word, because I'm gonna steal it from you. So you don't know this show. But I transcribe these episodes. And so when people use words, like vacillate, I already am wondering how it's spelled. But I know what it means. And so I'm gonna do it. Yeah. But so there's like, throughout the book, you weave a narrative of, you know, we are good, especially how you close it, like, there will be a day that redemption doesn't even need a name anymore, because we're all good. But at the beginning, I think it's in good call chapter two. Like, I'm curious, your thoughts, I see you weaving a narrative of goodness, and then intentionally choosing a brokenness, you and I, and choosing that and helping to create like a hell here on Earth, which the inverse is also true, which is what you just alluded to, and we can make decisions that create the kingdom in partnership as creators, not necessarily artists. But I'm curious, where do you stand on like, Original Sin type doctrine, which isn't really spelled out in the book? Because I see you writing from both sides of that without really choosing a stance, if that makes any sense at all.

Sho Baraka 24:02

I, you know, I try to be careful because I'm not a theologian. I've spent enough time in seminary to to, to be dangerous. I just read books. Yeah. Both and yeah, I've been reading a lot of books. And I'm that kind of person who reads enough books that I can say something that is totally dangerous, because I kind of get the concept but I don't know it. I don't comprehend it all the way. So I tried to stay away from like, with being authoritative around particular tenets of faith. Now, however, my personal belief is that I do believe in original sin in a sense that, you know, man, we're creating humanity was created good. And we've, we've fallen, and we're trying to figure out how to get back to a place of, of goodness, but we'll never be wholly good as you will. As we were better yet. In the garden, but I am of the philosophy, the human philosophy that humans are terrible people. And I'm not shocked. I tell people this all the time, like if, for instance, if my neighbor next door, murders his wife, and then all of a sudden, the news comes to me and they say, Can you believe that? You're

Seth Price 25:21

like, Yes, I can't, I can't believe it I met.

Sho Baraka 25:24

I'm not shocked. I've met him. And he seemed like a great guy. But you know what, I know what people do when they get upset, and they get angry. And so I'm more shocked that he hasn't killed her yet. If anything, you know, it's, it's more of that, like I look at the world, I look at the depravity I'm never shocked by the propensity of human depravity that ranges across our nation, across the globe. I go to India, and we talked about India, off camera, you see caste systems, you go to South Africa, it's not just the effects of apartheid. But before that, you see the violence between Kosovo and Zulu you in Rwanda to see a Tutsi in my own neighborhood, you have gang violence, but then you have this national, cat, you know, systems of oppressions that have been rapid through our society. And so I mean, you go to Ireland, you see Protestant, Catholic, I mean, it's, my thing is you don't need race, you don't need religion, you don't need social status to hate somebody, all you need is another human being in close proximity, and you will find a reason to dislike them. And so that's kind of like my view of, of humanity. But I guess the opposite of that, the, the, the, the the opposition or not the opposition, but the resolution is somewhat of a Christian humanism that I'm trying to give is like, how do we learn to treat each other better? How do we learn and the tension of knowing that I am going to move next door to somebody who probably looks different than me, grew up differently, has a different religion for me? How do I still find a way to love them, even if I never proselytize them to the faith to the social sensibilities that I have? I got to figure out how to live in peace with this person. And this is a lot of what I'm trying to communicate in this in this book.

Seth Price 27:21

We've reached that random point in the episode that I've got to do this because capitalism is the beast that requires feeding and you amazing people continue to help the show grow, and I got to help pay for that. Hang tight. And let's do this.

Unknown Speaker 27:37

Hello everyone. I'm a meow like Gotham sofa since about nine this morning. I know the Lord sees my greed is so appalling. That's been my phone buddy your clothes so I miss McCollum. But my extended adolescence so Salus, I wanna play doh. I'm so childish.

Seth Price 27:55

Can you walk me through what the concept of chocolate Hill song is? What is that? That's when you know, I actually read all of the book that is yes, he Look, you've earned some points right there. So I,

Sho Baraka 28:10

I talked about going to a church that was a minority led church with the intention of trying to be multicultural, multiracial and multicultural. And in some senses, multi economic, multi, diverse in its economic status as well, because it was in the middle of the city. So you had like, you know, communities that were considered projects or lower income, but then you also had like, literally million dollar homes, right next door to projects. And so this is in Atlanta, but by the way, and so in the city, you have these people, white, Asian and Latino coming to this predominantly black church. And the philosophy of the church was how do we create music that can bring everybody together. And so one of the philosophies was, well, let's just take songs from like, Hillsong. Let's take songs from like Bethel, different people like that, but jazz it up a little bit, give it a little bit of fun, give it a little so. And so insert some horns. It's more it's facts look baseline, rather than just an electric or acoustic, let's get a little baseline. Let's put that thing on a two and four rather.

Seth Price 29:27

You know that we can't clap to that.

Unknown Speaker 29:30

Hey, well, you

Unknown Speaker 29:30

gotta you won't learn you're gonna learn today.

Sho Baraka 29:33

And so, basically, I learned I just I start calling it chocolate Hill song. These black folks tried to give a go song a little low.

Seth Price 29:46

Is there an album I got? I'll buy that.

Sho Baraka 29:49

No, but there's some so you know, when I was we tried, right? But I would say there's two you know, why is it there's two there's a pull up contagious worship. It's a it's a it's a it's some of those folks made a news. But then it's also ducks, ducks allergy, I think it's called. It's a band out of Philadelphia church out of Philadelphia. And they, I would say they did the same thing. Those two albums are the attempts of trying to take this highly theological, thoughtful music

Seth Price 30:20

and put it on the two and four, and put it on until four. All right, so you write a couple stories in here, honestly, you should just make a book out of this. Actually, at the end of all this, I'm going to recommend a book that comes out in September because from what you wrote about prudence, which is what I want to ask you about, um, I think the majority go any further. Yeah,

Sho Baraka 30:40

I will say this, you are the I've literally I've done maybe 30. I don't know, maybe 30 interviews, it's probably not that pretty, but it feels like 30 interviews, and I'm not trying to like overtake you. Or maybe the second person who's asked me, maybe third person at the moment who's asked me about the fiction. Is that good or bad? That's amazing. We want to talk about that.

Seth Price 31:04

Yeah, I mean, there are books with theology, but books with arguably parables mixed in the middle. So when I read that it forced me to reconcile what I read before, and then made me pay attention to what I was reading further, because I'm assuming, since you know, you said, You're an adjunct professor, I think it's probably the word that you don't put a story in the middle of a of a classroom lecture. If the story doesn't matter. It's not just you being like, you know what, I need to flex a bit. I know that I'm a recording artist, and I could say what I want and just put it on Spotify. But No, I'd rather write it down. Because that's easier. For some reason, I'm sure that that's not the intention. So I'm gonna read this go with me, I'm probably going to read it wrong. So there is a story about prudence. And I'll let you rip apart whatever you want about prudence. I want to talk about what the rodent says. And then I want to relate that later on to what because you use the word prudence again. And I again, have to assume that's not intentional or that's intentional. But you say the Rhoden spoke rapidly acknowledgments were revered judges, we are in the process of a great renewal. So excuse what might be unpleasant to your eyes, we are growing, we are moving, we are building a future. If I had known our prudent friend was unwelcome or in danger, I would have assisted or myself. And then he talks about all these other things, you know, look at my reputation, I got money, I give away money, yada, yada, yada. But then at the end, you say you can't build dignity. And that's the part that I really want to rip apart kind of whatever that metaphor and narrative is. And then if you could, the other place that you use the word prudence is in I don't know what the chapter is. But there's a part where you're talking about a song called chapter nine, Jim Crow, which is actually one of the songs that makes me upset. The Kanye rent is another one that kind of makes me happy. And I don't know why. I don't know why I think it's the cadence of the flow. It's slightly different than, than the normal cadence. But you write in there, after you quote some of your own lyrics, you say, you know, these words were used with prudence. And so are those ideas connected at all? Take that wherever you want to take it.

Sho Baraka 33:08

So I would love to act like they were But no, no, those, those two. Give me about 30 seconds, I can figure out how to make them connect. Yeah, I will say no, um, but I will say no, I will say no. They're not connected. But I forgot the other part of the question.

Seth Price 33:33

Yeah. So the, these these, the, the rat part, the rodent basically saying, You can't build dignity, okay. And the reason I asked that is my pastor did I think two years ago before COVID. So maybe three years ago, I don't know. times lost, its its its measure. He did a sermon series on the Minor Prophets, it was 13 weeks summer was 13 weeks long. So this is great. It's already pre planned, mostly two chapters, three chapters long, let's do this thing. And at the end, I can remember someone in our church being like, you can't talk about our government that way. And he's like, I didn't say the word United States in any of this. And for some reason, in the words of the road, and what I hear is, but look at me doing all these cool things. I did it kind of reminds me of Amos 523 like just so anyway, wherever you want to go, yeah. So,

Sho Baraka 34:21

absolutely, exactly. Um, you know, without over, over analyzing and over explaining the art. Each road is a representation of a particular type of person, you can even say vocation, if you will skillset a particular class of people and I mean class by, like, you got the artists in class, you have, you know, business class, you have the academic. And so the Rodin is a representation of a particular type of person, and oftentimes we look at the veneer of what they do as dignified or redemptive, but It can often be very selfish, it can be self serving, and destructive. And so the council will lay down some judgment in that. Oftentimes the the construction of edifices that look like they're bringing dignity actually do the opposite, because of the effects of that type of work and vocation. And so that story, and to your point, that story is placed in that in that particular part of the book for a reason, because I just, I think I just came out of talking about good call, and then I'm going into justice, if I'm not mistaken. And so, which is good plays bad pronunciation. Want to make sure that I'm not making this up? Yep. So I is in between a chapter that's talking about work. And the chapter that's talking about justice. So I think it was very pertinent that I put it there, and that people can see themselves as they just read about, what do you do? How do you work? How do you contribute? And how is this tethered to making other people's lives better?

Seth Price 36:11

Hmm, there's a part in there again, I don't know what chapter it is, because I'm screenshotting these things on the Kindle app on my phone. So he talked about that many black evangelicals. And you also end up saying that most people that are black evangelicals, unless I'm misremembering, really aren't black evangelists. That's just a label foisted onto them, because there needs to be a label somewhere, see themselves as modern day recipients of Jeff Jeremiah's prophetic instructions to seek welfare of the city as exiles. And then you say that that term needs to be ripped a bit apart. Now, most people only are familiar with Jeremiah 2911, maybe 12, if you did the extra credit homework. So what are you getting at with that? And like, what would you mean when you define the word exile specifically for people living, you know, here in the US, which you'd asked at the beginning, the people listening to the podcast for the demographics. So the the number one listener is actually your neighbor. So that's going to be awkward. When he finds out that he's, you assume he's got his wife, and in the United States is the primary demographic as well. But yeah, can you rip a bit apart that little sentimentality there about Jeremiah? And the term of exhale?

Sho Baraka 37:17

So just a little correction? I do believe that black I so there are a lot of people who don't like the as the labeled black evangelicals, there are a lot of black Christians who don't like that. But my argument in a lot of ways is like I'm, I understand that. The underbelly of my argument is like I get it, and yes, to some degree, there's a legitimate argument there. However, if we're looking at evangelical in the sense, and just the Bebbington definition of it, which I talked about there, and I can't remember off the top of my head, but it's, you know, Christ centeredness. The Gospel changes people, people change the world type of thing. black churches, traditional black churches, churches throughout history are evangelical, and that white evangelicals can't just own that term, by themselves. And but today, evangelicalism has a different type of association to it. So therefore, there are a lot of people who are like, Nah, don't call me an evangelical, but the reality is, is just like people call themselves Christians and do ridiculous things, you can't throw away the identity of what it means to be a Christ follower, just because somebody else has said and done something that you don't like and don't associate with. So that's that. So black folks should be should not be ashamed to call themselves evangelical, because it's an inherently it's not a bad label. exiles, in the context of this particular chapter, Jeremiah is talking to people who were removed from their home, and placed in captivity in Babylon. And he's telling these individuals look, we know this is not the perfect situation for you, you know, we know you'd rather be in your homeland. But the reality is, is God has allowed this, and God wants you to be here, not only for your own personal flourishing, but this is what this is, what's crazy, but for the flourishing of the city, you're Europe, oppressors, if you will. And that is a very difficult and hard truth, and tells them to marry off their children, to build gardens to buy homes, it's, you know, to live and to flourish off the land, because in your flourishing, the city will flourish as well. And if you for those people who are Bible scholars are just familiar with the story, you understand that David, David Daniel and, and the Hebrew boys shadrach, meshach, and abednego exist during this time. So they take this prophecy or this prophetic posture to heart by saying, you know what, I'm going to thrive in the culture I'm going to learn and Daniel talks about this in chapter one. I'm going to learn the culture and I'm going to excel and therefore you get high positions and therefore because of those high positions, you become a blessing not only to the city, but to your People, and so as a as a clarion call to black evangelicals who feel like this is not my home, I'm in a palace, and I don't belong here. What I'm saying is whether you decide to leave the palace or whether you remain in the palace, understand that you still have a responsibility to seek the flourishing not only of your own well being and maybe those people who are, you know, directly connected to you culturally, socially, racially, if that's your thing, then also, you have a responsibility for the flourishing of the city and your Ascension in the palace may be a blessing to other people. So I am just trying to create this dis challenge to folks, that God doesn't place us anywhere, just by happenstance is strategic, you are in the palace to be a blessing like Joseph like Moses, like Esther, like Daniel, and ultimately, like Jesus, us, you condescend, and you give your life as a ransom for other folks.

Seth Price 41:04

So I have three questions left. None of them are actually about your book. Because really, we only get five or six questions in a podcast episode, which really is frustrating, because I've probably got 15 other questions I want to ask. That's okay. So you have referenced David and Nathan. I don't mean Remember, if I was recording when you referenced it earlier, maybe it was maybe it wasn't. Who are the Nathan's today, like? Some of those people that we should be list like, pay attention to when they when they point at something?

Sho Baraka 41:33

The my favorite person in all of the world right now is Dave Chappelle. I love Dave Chappelle. I think he is brilliant. I think he is I think there's something about comedians that have the one the audacity to be able to speak to culture in a way that doesn't, they don't care about being silenced. Because one, they operate in the ridiculous. So it's like, people in a lot of ways they like, yeah, of course, they're going to say that. But what would I think separates the good comedians from exceptional comedians are is their ability to operate in the ridiculous but to communicate a philosophy and a truth that really gets to that puts a pause in the people. And it says, Wait, hold up. There's some, there's some depth to what they just said. And so Dave Chappelle is honestly he's a philosopher who just happens to be funny to me. He just a dude who you think you're having a conversation about? I don't know. Like, one of my favorite jokes in his day, is him talking about when he left Comedy Central, and he's trying to No, no, no, he didn't leave at this point. He just said, I was just going on a vacation to just, you know, to Disneyland with my with my family or Disney World, my family, and I'm just trying to take a break. And you think this is a joke about people invading his privacy. But at the end, he talks about how he got so frustrated with Mickey Mouse and people like trying to make fun of them and use his own jokes against him that he punches Mickey Mouse. And you're like, What in the world? Why would you punch Mickey Mouse. And then he talks about how everybody around him is up in arms. And it's like, I rate because he pushed Mickey Mouse. But not all. These are how everybody's irate not because he punches Mickey Mouse but because Mickey Mouse is actually a Mexican underneath the costume. And it's like, that's the social commentary that he gives. It's like, we're more upset that the fact that

Seth Price 43:35

Mickey Mouse is being portrayed by this Hispanic character in the fact that I punched him,

Sho Baraka 43:42

punched him and I and I abused Mickey Mouse this this icon right here said, so it's just funny. It's like, it's stuff like that the layers of you know. And anyway, so. But these vary both vulgar. But as Richard Pryor said, and as I quote Richard Pryor, it may be profane, but it's also profile. So I think folks like him, and I'll just I know you want to ask more questions, so I'll just leave it with a shirt. Yeah, no, that's fine.

Seth Price 44:07

His um, his thing in some cornfield, I guess in Ohio or whatever last like. Yeah, I don't know. I, I like I like that. Dave Chappelle is not where I thought you were going. Also, I'm glad that you went with that punched story, because there are other comedy specials with Dave Chappelle where he punches other things and it's not as clean as his Mickey Mouse. So I appreciate you going with that one. My kids sometimes listen to this and and yeah, you're right. You're right. I know exactly which way it is funny. Brilliant, set up to his level people where we're gonna go in an hour and a half this we're gonna be and then when you get there, you're like I told you, I told you. Oh, my gosh, the genius But anyway, yeah, he's great. Alright, so I decided Finally, after years of doing the show that I should play on the name of the show and it's become I think you're maybe the third or fourth person I've ever So what do you personally feel like are the things that we should be allowed to talk about at church, and that if we don't, we'll possibly be the demise of a portion of the life giving part of the church.

Sho Baraka 45:12

I think it's a little too late right now. But I think sex sexuality is one of the things that we have failed in. So therefore, we have a generation of people who don't trust the church anymore. Now, they have to say, about sex or sexuality. And I'm not even talking about sexuality in the sense of, you know, LGBTQ, etc. I'm saying, It's, I'm talking about even healthy sex within marriage, healthy sex. Like, it just seems like we can't, the only time we can talk about that is in counseling spaces are in marriage counseling, or marriage retreats. And I think this is politics. I don't know, marriage now. Maybe even politics, sex, and race are one of the most divisive. Some of the most divisive things to talk about. But it's the things that people love the most. And I don't understand why we were so afraid to talk about these things. Many people upsets people who are not even married or loving, love sex, and they love engaging in sex. And we're acting like we can't talk about it, teenagers are engaging in it. And oftentimes, we just try to distract teenagers with, you know, their favorite Christian rock band, or Christian hip hop group and act like, as soon as they're done, they're not going to go out and hang out with their friends, and there's going to be an attractive individual that they want to have sex with. And to deal with that compulsion, just listen to your favorite rap group is like, and then you know, politics again, you know, we all have strong beliefs about what makes the world better for us. Why are we able to talk about that, frankly, and do it in a way that's charitable and learn from one another? Why are you anti abortion? Why are you for abortion? And let's have a discussion about it. You know, I mean, and then we all love ourselves. And so that's the race discussion, even though it's a construct for stable like, we built this construct in the sense that we build our identities, according to the social groups. And I grew up loving this, you grew up living that well, that pushes up against my sensibility? Well, let's talk about it. How can we make this world a better place so that you and I can both love the things we love. You can love your Southern culture, but not necessarily throw your, your confederacy in my face. And I can love my blackness and not feel like just because you are white that you're evil, you know, I'm saying and so, like, let's figure out how to have these since a bit like these conversations and be sensible about it. But the church wants to act like they're not real things. And the more we talk about it, the more honest I think the conversations will be. And the less taboo, it will end up in them, the less offended we'll be by these types of things when they come up.

Seth Price 48:01

When you try to wrap words around what God the divine, whatever that is, is, what do you say to that if someone asks you, hey, what is that? What is God? What is that? All right, this? I told you, I end with the existential.

Sho Baraka 48:19

Yeah, I am very traditional in the sense that I just answered this question. I don't know if I can be very artistic. I've heard you know, Octavia Butler, talk about Goddess is power, basically. Right. And so that doesn't mean it's that he or she is a beam, it's the very essence of controlling something. And knowing you have that power and that control to change people's lives, that's a god. I like to think of it been more embodied in an actual energy and actual spirit that facilitates controls, determines but also allows things to happen, people to do. And that that person, that being that energy, that spirit actually cares. And it's not just hovering with without any kind of empathy. Because I think everything that nature cares, nature grows and gives nature punishes, when things go wrong, you feel that there was there's storms, there's viruses there the like nature interacts and it has a it's an organism that lives and it moves and it has it's been it thinks and to believe that those things didn't have some sort of intimate intelligent interaction with something to me feels like. Like there's there's there's nothing that watches over over us. I think that is to me, very naive, and I feel like that thing is God. I don't know what gender is, I don't know what it or he or she looks like, I just know that this is too beautiful of a design for it not to have been intentional. And we the way we operate, and we think we operate like gods. And so it just only makes sense that that complex didn't just come from the fact that we figured you know what somebody needs to control some stuff. I think that came from this idea that we are made from the very thing we want to emulate.

Seth Price 50:33

So I want to answer the question you asked earlier. So the Kanye 2009. That's the name of the song. I've been playing in the back of my mind, which makes it really hard to have a conversation. But all I keeps hearing is going to say it then, you know, which is not the way that it's saying in the song, the lyric in there, though, that I relate the most to where I like dialed in, and listened because I hate people named Sally. And I hate people named me. And I also hate that I hate people named Sally Mae. But there's a part in there that you say something like, like something about, you don't have enough money to solve problems and influence doesn't stop Sallie Mae from calling. And it's enough to drive somebody I don't remember all the lyrics, someone into depression or something like that. But I literally stopped rolling. And I'm like, that's absolute. That's why I got into what I do for a living because I didn't go to school to do what I do now. But Sallie Mae is like, hey, this six month deferral, hey, we will need that. Listen to this. I gave you some money. in quite a payday loan. I'm aware that you were 19 when we gave you like all this money, and you didn't know any better. You didn't do any better than probably should have done anyway. But still, that's how the system worked. They allow me to do it. And guess what that would appear? And maybe I did. I didn't buy like a Plymouth neon. Not even that Dodge Neon with money. That's not my fault. I needed a car. So yeah, I don't think it's your song with the song that spoken to me the most recently is we know Indian day. I think it's propaganda and I don't know who the other guy is. It might be swell. I'm not sure. So he's the lyric is Jesus died in the blackest way possible with his hands held high or his hands held up in his mama, they're watching them or something like that. And it's just Oh, it's not your song. Sorry. I didn't mean to digress. I know both of those loops. And I love both of those days. That's fine. Yeah, yeah. Where do you want people to go because they should buy the book. It's at books, a million here in in Stuarts draft Waynesboro, Charlottesville area that I live in, and I have moved it. There's an incap section there with a few other books, most of them are also blue. I do the same thing for every author that's on here. Like I did this for Elizabeth Johnson. I've done it for Diana bass. Like, if I'm in the store, and it's there. I'm moving to the front. So hey, it's time cost anything I know, in a few hours, some poor kid making $8 an hour is gonna have to fix it. But that's all right. But

Sho Baraka 52:55

hopefully those hours somebody has walked past and they saw this beautiful face. And they were like, Oh, yeah, that is strikingly gorgeous. I mean,

Seth Price 53:04

you see, that's when you like Chappelle, cuz that's the callback. I mean, there's no neon lights wrapped around you like you did the other day. But Gosh, people, there's people who have some interesting commentary on those pitches. Where do you want people to go their show? Where do they do the things that they need to do to support what you're doing

Sho Baraka 53:28

on all my platforms. My full name is ameesha. So it's ami sh o Baraka Ba, Ra K. So you'll find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, at that particular handle. Baraka, ology is my website, and I have an event that's going to be coming up called one Good night, and it's going to be a variety show. It's going to happen on June 26. And I think it was coming. Yes, Chappelle is gonna be there. He's gonna be on screen, but he'll be in the building. But it'll be virtual and also in person. So you know, just stay up on media or social media and you'll be able to enjoy some of the skits and short films and music that I'm you know, presenting with friends, so

Seth Price 54:14

it's gonna be fun. That's fun. Hey, man, I appreciate you being here. And yeah, I really enjoyed it. It was a it was a fun time. You were very fun interview and I don't say that to everybody. I appreciate it. And I'm on my way. I said, that's the end. Thank you so much for listening. The music in today's episode was used with permission from show Baraka, you'll find links to that on the playlist for the show on Spotify and anywhere else that you can find music. I want to give a huge and very special thank to Kathy Bruce, the newest member over at Patreon. People like Kathy and I would love to count you among them. Help the show can send you to be a show. If you've ever felt like hey, I'd like to support this throw a buck or two this way. Next week will be a replay again, of one of my favorites from the past archives. And then we will end the month with Jeremy and Jennifer diver. And that was also very fun conversation. I hope and I pray that the beginnings of this summer or late spring I don't actually know what season we're in have been truly amazing that you found new rhythms and new patterns of grace and rest. You're having fun, be blessed and I'll talk with you soon. And I'm on my way

Unknown Speaker 56:00

unlike hold up Can I dream? Everybody's dreaming, but not me. Manuel de his masterpiece is so vivid we know the architect homeboy we in the building no silly prayers tear the roof off tougher God via text we got a new car fans will exhaust you, hey, this was stolen your mail will always fail you keep on Jehovah. I'm saying great. I'm trying to push my brother's talented service.