Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

Seth Price 0:31

For me music is deeply divine. I really can't understand why. I mean, it happened last night. I was watching…I was watching an episode of Grey's Anatomy with my wife. And I don't even really like that show. However, there was a part of the music and the strings came in and it got to me. It made me just be flooded with all of these other emotions. And it was more than I could bear. Music does that for me all the time. Oh, I'm Seth. This is the Can I Say This At Church podcast. So a few months ago, I was presented with an opportunity to listen to an album by Ryanhood. And I didn't know what I was getting into. I'd never listened to the music before. And I really enjoyed it. And so I reached out and had him on the show. What I love about this conversation with both Cameron and Ryan, is just, it's honest. I mean, we talk about music, we talk about ways of hearing and seeing God. We talk about things that we're not supposed to talk about in church. And just the authenticity is two bring to their music is just so life giving. I can't wait for you to hear it. And so that's why we're going to begin now.

Seth Price 1:

Ryan Green and Cameron Hood, two people, which is always fun to bounce back and forth. But we've established, at least for people that are listening to the pre-version of this show that I am professional at this. I never forget the video, I definitely don't miss any audio cues. And so it should be fine. But welcome to you both to the show. Thank you very

Cameron Hood 2:45

Thank you very much, Seth. Yep. It's good to be with you man.

Seth Price 2:48

Yeah, so just so that people listening that can't see your faces kind of know, if one of you could just say Hi, I'm this and here's who I am and kind of why I am like really existential. Just get in it. (they laugh) That way they can kind of hear you drone on for a bit and realize, okay, the next time that person speaks, that's a person whomever

Ryan David Green 3:07

Right, you kick us off Cameron.

Cameron Hood 3:08

That's interesting. Yeah. So this is Cameron Hood, the hood, part of Ryanhood. Gosh, why I mean, who we are, like, I'll just tell you, we're, you know, we're two poets, like a two man band, basically, who have been friends for a really long time. Very different people, but maintained a friendship and maintained a band over longer than 20 years. We're from Tucson, Arizona. We lived for a while in Boston, Massachusetts, where Ryan went to college, and I eventually joined him.

When we both graduated college, we started our band as street performers like buskers with the guitar case opened in Boston. And that was many years ago, we've just maintained our friendship, maintained our ability to write songs together. And I think that we're getting better at it than ever.

Why we are is a tricky question that is such a deep question to open with. But at least for me, I want to, I'm committed, to transformation of myself and hopefully transformation of culture. Like I want to see myself grow and get over some of the dark places, some of the the wounds, the things that hold me back, or you could say the sin, you know. I want to get over those and transform those in myself. And I want to document that through words and stories and songs to help other people do the same thing. The more of us who do that the more, I think, we see the kingdom come like that, to me, that's a tangible thing. I want to help see the kingdom come. And I want to be a part of that, that animates me. So that's why I am. Ryan Green?

Ryan David Green 4:51

All right. My name is Ryan Green, sometimes known as Ryan David Green, when I want a little more uniqueness. And I am the the tenor voice half of this, this podcast, I think I'm gonna be the easiest one to recognize in this call. (leans in and gets that deep voice on) If it sounds like this, it's one of the other guys. (laughs) And, yeah, so Cameron told you kind of our story a little bit but I, one of the things as far as who we are, why we are, I actually I feel like the fact that we are a duo creates a really powerful thing. Because we perform typically just as a duo in front of people and Cameron and I really prioritize having a healthy relationship with one another. And I think the fun and creativity and the spirit with which we interact with each other on stage tends to invite sort of that spirit with the audience with those that are show as well. Kind of a leaning in towards each other, a trust, a care for one another. That is important for Cameron and I with one another and important for for us to feel with our audiences and vice versa. And so anyway, I think that being a duo helps us to kind of model some sorts of relational behavior, and ideally in invite that to sort of spread through room. And as far as individually, I just identify as really, at my core as being a creator of things. And often the things I'm most drawn to are the mysterious, intangible things. tThe feelings that music that art gives me without words, even. Cameron tends to be the lyricist of our group. And I tend to be sort of maybe the producer and the lean heavier on the musical side of things. And that's because I just am so interested in why music and art makes us feel things and why creating something makes us feel things. It feels like magic, and I love it!

Seth Price 7:29

Yeah, so I always like to do this when there's stuff behind people because most people just have a row of books and I have Barbies if you could see 17 inches below the camera; they are all over the floor, I record this in the kids play room. So, Ryan, for you, which one of those two guitars is the one that matters? Like if you had to just pick it up in the dark and play it? Assuming that the amp would work for both, you know.

Ryan David Green 7:55

A little camera pan…Oh, it has to be…

Seth Price 7:59

There on the couch. Obviously, those are the ones you like…

Ryan David Green 8:02

Well you can see they were just above that spot there. The one above it on the wall means the most to me because it was built by a woman here in Tucson who gifted it to me and she was

Cameron Hood 8:13

Yea that acoustic back there

Ryan David Green 8:15

Yeah, she was just getting the hang of building acoustic guitars. And she passed away shortly after. She actually grew ill while building that guitar, she got sick with cancer. And she passed away from us shortly after finishing it. And it's just my…I love. So there's so much intangible wrapped up in that instrument. And then it also is my favorite sounding one that I've got and but also just to like hold it and know that like this was what she poured — when her time was finite and she knew that this was what she chose to do. This is what she went to for joy and was to build this instrument and it's just feels so incredible to know that like these, like no hours could be more valuable that I can imagine than the hours, those particular hours, that were spent on that instrument. And I just feel like it's just such a treasure. So there's a great joy in that one. The red one is a new Takamine guitar I got that I love and it's that's that's my new, my newest favorite because it's kind of made to play fast on and do it. It's a little smaller body so I'm ready to it when we can get back on stage. I'm already practicing how I can kind of move around with it in practice, you know, getting the stage moves going. It’ll be fun. So instead of a huge, bulky one, it's meant for, you know, for some Springsteen, knee slides, I think

Seth Price 9:52

Cameron 20 years. So you said you've been a band for 20 years, correct?

Cameron Hood 9:57

Yeah, we played our first show 20 years ago, this coming August, was just a tiny little thing. We were both in college at the time we knew each other back in high school. But we didn't play in the same band. We were kind of in rival rock bands in high school. And then post high school the the rivalry dissolve, we became friends and started playing together. And it was just sort of a I don't want to say like a lark. We weren’t making fun of anything. It was just like, this sounds joyful and easy to play just the two of us, could we because we'd both been in rock bands, and it's a hard thing to manage a rock band. It's heavy in the sense of managing all these personalities. And it's also heavy carrying a lot of amps and drums. So yeah, we just got together like, what would it be like just the two of us just a lighter enterprise, I guess? Yeah. 20 years?

Seth Price 10:56

Yeah. So at a high level, I wanted to talk about an album that, again, the young lady that set this up, sent me so I hope that that was fine. She gave me access to it ahead of time. I have no idea. Yeah. So I also, I'm not good at writing lyrics. So Ryan, I get that. I play guitar. I'm not very good. Matter of fact, it sounds like you'll have like four guitars playing. So I'm assuming you're looping over on top of yourself, which I don't know how you would do that live? Or is it just the two of you on the album?

Ryan David Green 11:25

Yeah, there are some layers on the album. There's a string quartet on much of the album as well. Typically, we do tour live just the two of us. And so it's going to be two primary guitar parts. So most everything in the record is going to have one or two primary guitars that are creating most of that sound. And then we do some other percussion with our feet and things on stage too.

Seth Price 11:46

So this morning on the way to work. So I've been listening to the album for about a week, because that's how long I've had it. I keep coming back to Appy Returns, and it ends up being …it ends up being the last thing that I hear before I get into work. Like once I dropped the kids off, and I hit play, and I just let it go. That seems to be where I end. I'm curious as to why that has no lyrics because I think it's the only one, unless I'm wrong. And then I don't know. Like, why is that there? Actually let me zoom back. Like, what is what are you doing with this album? Because I want to be real clear. I haven't listened to your older stuff, because I just haven't. So what's going on with Under The Leaves? And then if you could dovetail back into that, like why no words? Why the referee specifically at like, minute to the entire tempo of the music kind of seems to shift as well. Right at about a minute two of Appy. However, we'll get there. So under the leaves, what is that feel free, whoever wants to jump in?

Cameron Hood 12:45

Yeah, to me under the leaves is just a response to like the breakneck pace of life around us over the last couple of years. Our own touring schedule the craziness of the world. And then just sort of trying to take a step back and being like, I need to breathe, I need to find some quiet, I need to find some silence with which to see the world and see myself clearer. And so within that space, there are a lot of conversations about relationships, what happened in this relationship? How did I show up? And is that who I want it to show up as, you know? What's happening in my relationships, on Facebook and in the world and how am I showing up there?

And then it also kind of looks at like, if we don't collectively stop and take a breath and know our own histories. And listen to our own stories, we're not going to be able to do that well to the stories of others. Like if we don't know our own stories, we don't really generally have space to listen to the stories of others. And if we don't do that, what might the world look like if we don't pause and rest, if we don't take a deep drink of water, you know, what will happen?

So to me, that's kind of the the course of of what's happening on the record. It's trying to find some space to breathe and then see ourselves and face ourselves. And I think right there in the middle is just this, like, this jaunt Appy Returns is just, there's so many lyrics on the album. There's so many words, that it's it's just such a welcome break from all of that from all of those thoughts, all the philosophy all the words to just like go on this ride. And that's something that there's precedent for in our band. We have typically had at least one instrumental on most of our records in some cases two or three instrumentals. Just it's just a nice break. It's a nice break from the words and my man Ryan Green can just fly! His fingers are very quick. And we call him the maestro because he just burns up the neck of the guitar. And that's just a chance for him. him to do that and for us to feel something and not not say something but feel something I guess that would be my take Ryan You want to add to that?

Ryan David Green 15:02

Yeah, I mean that. So specifically, that's my goal with the whole sort of production of the album. Was that to make it you know, to feel something to give you a musical bed that that matches lyrically? Well, what is being said. So, there's, there's more feeling on this record as a whole, which is one of the reasons I wanted to work with a string quartet on this record, I just feel like the beauty of that in the, the, you know, we're used to, we're, like, programmed to be manipulated by by string quartets for rice, orchestral, or by strings. It's like, we watch a movie, and it makes us feel, we don't know why we're crying. And, you know, if you've ever watched the movies, when they were they mute the background, if you ever watch these scenes where they Mute the music, right? Yeah, there's nothing, you don't feel anything. It feels awkward. And anyway, so it's, it's an amazing thing. What it does, and I felt like it was really special to get to work with the string players we did on this record. So the and that song appy returns, specifically, I mean, so that's a, it's kind of a sequel to a song called appy jam from an older record of ours called the world awaits. And that song that instrumental appy, jam had become kind of a crowd favorite. It similarly works just like on the album, having an instrumental moment works. As a sort of a palate cleanser and a place to sit in some space and live, it does the same thing. And we tend to do a lot of storytelling live. There's, there's a lot of they go pretty deep, the shows go deep, there's a lot of humor and laughing and there's also a lot of depth. And sometimes, after working people's emotions for a little while, the best thing you can do is just say, Alright, now for something completely different. And you you go in and play a two guitar jam, and people feel great in. And it's as simple as that, you know, it's as simple as is enjoying a little a little flying fingers for a couple minutes.

Seth Price 17:06

I itch to talk about religion if I go longer than 15-20 minutes. And so I'm going to work a question in there for that. So how does what you do in your church or in your, you know, Your Worship or whatever word you want to wrap around that how does that inform kind of the way that you write music outside of the church, because I don't think that you would be playing these really, on a Sunday morning, Wednesday morning, Saturday morning, whatever morning it is that you do your Zoom church, because that's the world that we live in. And people can tune in whenever they want. Like, how does the way that you practice faith kind of informed the way that you'll write music collaboratively or even individually?

Cameron Hood 17:44

That's interesting. I think I might answer that by saying that one of the things that we we try it, we attempt to practice at the church that I go to, which is just like a non denominational, evangelical something 200 to 300 people is to walk through, like the kind of liturgy each week. Something that bears a resemblance to God is holy, we are needy, Jesus redeems us and then we are sent. Or another way of looking at it would be like we're gathered in, we hear the word we sit at the table, and then we're sent out you know, something like that. Those are not the only ways to talk about that not the only ways that church has traditionally broken that up.

But the idea there being that, that some form like that, every week, slowly forms us over time that that's a part of spiritual formation over time, I heard this really great quote, I can't remember who it's from. But it basically, the person, was saying that we overestimate what we can accomplish in one really great worship service. Even if we have the best songs, and we got to the soaring heights, and everyone was crying and everyone had, you know, emotions and the prayers were prayed. We overemphasize what we can accomplish during one service. But we under emphasize what we can accomplish in 10 years of services, just a basic form. So there's, to me, what I'm taking from all that is that storytelling works on us over time.

So just the presentation of what all this is, and where we fit in all this and what we need to be able to move forward and how we're sent into the world. Hopefully, as new people, just rehearsing that piece by piece over time. That's, I guess, what we try to do, and those are similar themes to what I think about as a band. I care a lot about how an album tells a story. And I know that the album form is kind of going away. We're a lot more in a “single” music culture right now. And that's okay too. But I still care a lot about the rise and fall and how you find your footing and how you might open up over the course of an album.

And so I'm always meticulous about sequencing songs in certain places like we were sequencing this album Under The Leaves. And there was one song where I was like, Man, this song can't rhyme wanted to put it at a certain spot on the record for like the musical rise and fall. Because he's thinking a lot about how is it moving me, I think, you know, as the album goes on, how is it moving my experience my emotions? But I'm like, this song can't go that late on the album, because it's an immature song.

Seth Price 20:26

Which song is this?

Cameron Hood: 20:28

That's a song called Gone Before I Go. And, and it ended up being the song that opens the second half of the album, but it was a couple of songs later. Originally, and it's just a song of kind of running away like thinking that it will be better somewhere else. But the song that ends up following is this really deep song that Ryan wrote called Not Alone, that talks about really digging into our childhoods in our history and you know, figuring out how to have really deep roots and heal from so it doesn't make any sense to follow that with this sort of flighty relationship song about running away and thinking “Oh, it'll be better somewhere else” you know. So that's how it works on me is I want there to be this progression as you listen through time and time again that slowly it's working on you this this progression through the songs.

Seth Price 21:16

Yeah. What do you want to say I can see your mouth moving here…

Ryan David Green 21:19

Yes! I was gonna say I mean, we this it's funny because we go through this with every you know, whenever we build a setlist for any show, it's very similar. I'm building this arc, this emotional arc, that again, mostly dealing with the sort of rise and fall and crescendos of musical nature. And then he will say, like, these, you know, the message of these two should go he's thinking purely the lyrical message I'm thinking of the way the songs will flow or the way the keys will go from one another. We just did three upbeat songs. So we can do a down song, but we shouldn't do three in a row. And it's great that we view them in three different lenses and he's got the sort of, you know, analytical, lyrical approach to make that story work. He's like, what if we put these two songs next to each other? This song will be the, you know, sort of the punchline the other song needs. So it's great.

Seth Price 22:43

I get that I get both parts of the actually one of my favorite albums, and the name is escaping me at the moment. But The Brilliance are you familiar with the band?

Cameron Hood 22:52

Yeah, David Gungors band

Seth Price 22:54

He has an album, and it's like blue, and it's like a moon and I could look it up in a moment. But it is like you literally just sit there and hit play. And then you don't do anything like you just listen. And it's absolutely wonderful. Andy Squyres new album is a lot like that as well. I don't know if you've heard his new album. It is briliant.

Cameron Hood 23:14

I do think you're thinking of All is Not Lost though. Does that sound right? All is Not Lost?

Seth Price 23:20

Yeah. The one before whatever they did with the green album that's out right now. I don't know what's happening there. I'm not feeling that one. But that's okay. David can do what he wants to do, because it’s his music.

Ryan David Green 23:30

My my grandpa's a musician who I kind of inherited my love and interest for music for him that that bass that was on my wall is his bass. And when he heard he about our new CD, he wrote back and said, he emailed me and said, “

I'm trying to think of how to describe your latest CD. It's remarkable, but it goes beyond that. By the time I was listening to the final two tracks, I think I was somewhere else. And that I had to get back to reality when it was finished.

And I was like, I was so!!! Because he's a big band musician. He comes from a different era. He does, he's he plays in Dixieland jazz groups and writes for big bands. So you know, acoustic pop rock is not his forte. And I just love that it like, that it did it. I've always heard commentary he’s always encouraging but I've never gotten that kind of feedback from him so that's when you guys are talking about being you know, an album that you can get lost and I was pretty happy to hear that.

Seth Price 24:25

Oh, yeah. Those are my favorites. Absolute favorite another. He's actually let me use his music on the show in the past. Heath McNease is an artist that does that. But he makes me laugh because sometimes he'll do the same album, but one will be rap and one will be like acoustic singer-songwriter. He actually did one that's all inspired by CS Lewis, but he like weaves his family story into it. And it's actually really, it's really good.

Cameron Hood 24:51

That sounds squarely up my alley!

Seth Price 24:53

I can send it to you. Like I think it's called like the Problem of Pain is but it's it's basically based upon all of the Have CS Lewis, but he's like telling stories about his grandfather. Anyway, we're here to talk about your stuff. Not that!

Cameron Hood 25:05

We can talk about CS Lewis, man that’s awesome.

Seth Price 25:09

I'll send it to you. I'll have to get your your direct emails it's everywhere. It's on all the places. So I don't remember the name of the song. There's a lyric, actually, I do know it's so in Morning Break there's a lyric in here. And I'm going to try to read it at my handwriting here so

And all the tears I thought were wasted
watered down below

Cameron and Ryan 25:33

‘til the garden from the grave
began to grow.

Seth Price 25:37

I can't read my handwriting to grow. Yeah. Who wrote that? What is this song about? Like, and specifically, like, rip apart that lyric? Because Ryan, you said you didn't write lyrics. And then Cameron just said you wrote an entire song. So I feel like you lied to me. But that's okay.

Ryan David Green 25:46

(laughter) Yeah, primarily, we break all the rules in our band. But but it's it's like an 80/20 split.

Cameron Hood 25:52

Right. And here's the deal. I've written a good melody in my time. And Ryan has written some beautiful lyrics in his time. So, I think we both have, have skill and but we certainly work one muscle more than the other. For that song for Morning Breaking. That was written as a response to there's kind of a breakup pop song early on the record called, I Didn't Have the Chance. And it's just a song of kind of going, there was somebody that really mattered to me, and I let it slip away. I didn't speak up in time. I don't know if I had the courage to speak up in time. Or if I should have I don't know if I did the right thing, but it's slipped away.

And I kind of look back and I'm like, maybe if this, maybe if this, and then it's all just too many maybes. And we were working on that song writing. And I think I was sitting at the piano and playing it. And the last chord was sort of ringing out from it. And it's just such a song of regret, that I didn't really know where to go from there. But I think just feeling that sense of regret, I just sort of started pounding the keys. And I'm not a great piano player, but just pounding easy chords, over and over. And this melody, you know, this high vocal melody kind of came out. And this longing. This like, I've just longing to shake off regret or longing to shake off shame, longing to shake off the fear that those things that just seem to stick around, right. And so I just wrote from that perspective, and the first lyrics are

wide awake the morning breaking
night, I'm shaking off
my eyes are wider
than they’ve been in months.

And I was like, yeah, I need that in my life. I need this like, from a place like I wasn't fully there yet. But I was imagining I was build a vision. And so I kept going. And so

…the weight of my mistakes
had fallen from my hands
like scattered seeds
behind me as I ran.

And all the tears I thought were wasted
watered down below
’til a garden from the grave
began to grow.

Now, through the fields
and through the forest
on to unknown lands
I learned to love the traveller as I am

So that I'll be ready to love
When I have the chance.

And so those are the complete lyrics to that tune. And for me it was this idea that all the things I kept doing wrong. All the relationships that didn't turn out that I thought they should or who I thought I was supposed to be. Always those things feel like failure. And the idea of like waking up from and being like, all of those things, all of that weight fell off with me. But it didn't just like, it didn't just fall like a back like a you know, pilgrims sort of, you know, the back, it all came out as the seeds. Every one of those things planted a seed in my life. And I love the image that all the tears I thought were wasted were the very things that were watering those things right. All the times I thought this doesn't make any sense. I don't know how to move forward from this. Every time I pray about this particular situation, it gets harder, and not easier. You know, and I don't know how to look at that. And it's only ever years later that you look back and you go, this is how I grew from that or this thing caused this thing. And it was the most important thing that could have happened to me. But you only ever get to see it later, I think. And so it's just trying to own those things, the hard things, bringing those all in together. And saying that where I thought it was just ashes, just a grave, just brokenness. Those are the very places that the garden grows from. Those are the very places that new life can come from.

Seth Price 29:42

Yeah. Is this the same song…I don't have all the songs at least the order memorized because I hit on random, usually. There's a song. And the reason I asked is Ryan is because you talked about how important the melody is and the rise and fall and etc. There's a song in here that the piano literally sounds off tune. Is it this song is it this one, or is it the last one?

Ryan David Green 30:06

This is the main piano song on the album, right. I mean, if you’re talking about piano.

Seth Price 30:11

There's one of them like at the beginning ,it sounds like someone's slamming on it. But the piano itself sounds like a 30 year old piano. This has been in a while. (both of the guys Yes!) I that grabs my attention. So why for melody needing so much like Why leave that like there's this tension there, like there's just this…

Ryan David Green 30:29

(small chuckles)

Part of that tension is actually just the chords Cameron is playing on the piano. He's got this really dense right hand corner, and he's changing the bass notes through it. But it's there's all these very close notes to one another. You know, the five second music theory lesson for those who are not into it is that normally your notes in a chord are two keys, there's an empty white key between the other notes. You don't usually play two notes right next to each other, or you get a lot of dissonance. Unless you want that dissonance. And there's a lot of dissonance in those chords.

And so I think part of it is maybe the piano in the room itself and the distance, you know, it's it's mic’d from far away. So you're getting this big sound. It's I think it's just the anchor. It's just a picture when you hear him first come in singing, you hate him pounding the piano. And then his first note, it's written, it's like one of the highest vocals Cameron's ever song on our record. It is very top of his range. We actually recorded it low. We lowered the key initially, he demoed it up in that height and then we lowered it thinking like well let's put it in a more reasonable key for you. And we ended up going back to it's like it needs the pain it needs to like yearning it needs the effort required to be up there.

Seth Price 31:44

You both lead worship from what you said earlier. I have songs as well that I'm like, “No, if you ask me to sing this on Sunday, I'm not singing this song. Tired of this song. It's not happening” has nothing to do with the album. But I'm wondering like you show up and you're like, absolutely not. This is not happening.

Cameron Hood 31:59

It's hard. I have so many of those. But I don't want to like go on the record throwing shade at other artists. It's too hard. It's like, here's the thing. I definitely have my opinions, but I just have it to me, it's like a spiritual practice to like to, like say good things about things, you know. And so I guess I'm sort of throwing you under the bus right now Seth for asking that; sort of making you look bad right now. (we all laugh)

Seth Price 32:26

You know what..look for me know, I'll own it. Because I've literally so there's two there's Mary Did You Know. I'm not gonna sing it hate that song? Ever, ever. And then second is Trading My Sorrows. I can't stand it.

Cameron Hood 32:42

I can’t either.

Seth Price 32:44

Hey! Look at you, you did it? I'm proud of you!

Cameron Hood 32:43

(Laughs) I did it‽ You did it Seth!

Seth Price 32:46

That's it. There's a few others. There's another one that they like to sing called Come to the Water, which requires like an 18 piece band, which we don't have. And it sounds awful. Yeah, whatever.

Ryan David Green 32:58

I mean, I'm guilty, generally, of like, being I am going to be it's hard, you know, even our favorite songs of all time. Like remember how amazing Clocks by Coldplay was the first 70 times you heard it probably. It was like, amazing for a lot of times. And it's really unfortunate that like it becomes sometimes things become less obvious. Sometimes it may be you might think a song is not amazing right away. But even there's worship songs that I used to think were amazing. And then I you know, I want to feel I want I want to be stirred and so I'm like, I'm just often looking for songs with that unusual with the flat seven chord to put it in the MixoLydian mode instead of the major mode. Or it’s got the minor five chord to do the same thing. You know, Dwell this old vineyard song Dwell in the Midst of Us. (It is) three chords the whole time, but it's the the I don't remember what key it's I don't say it's G to D minor to C or something like that. It's set D minor. It's the five chord is minor instead of major and it's like that's I'm drawn to that. This is…there's positive resolution it's landing on a major chord but it's got that slightly like unusual thing there which to me reflects life on Earth.

Seth Price 34:16

I know. I know often I think all you have to do to make people extra move though is you just put the D synthesizer pad playing in the back and just let that play the whole time. Because most songs on Sunday you could just stick with D and you're fine with it. You don't even need to move it at least the songs that we play (laughs)

Ryan David Green 34:34

I mean I'll say that here's what this makes me think of is just the like this is a really hard question and I know people who have struggled who question their faith they're gonna they start realizing like was I just feeling something in worship because music makes us feel these things? You know, it was not like I felt like I was having. Am I feeling an actual connection to God? And actually, is my heart really crying out and connecting? Or is it a manipulation of the chemicals in my brain through these chords and you know, by using the the Coldplay chords and if you're in a big church the lights and the fog and stuff? Those are hard questions and if you say both and?

Seth Price 35:26

Absolutely, yeah.

I often um, so my favorite scripture for creation going back to CS Lewis, Cameron, is when in Narnia like Aslan is singing creation into being like, it's just a beautiful retelling of Genesis. It's just like, it's just wonderful, like the way that it comes in. And anyway, layers on top of itself. So I want to end with two existential questions for each of you. And you can take it in any way that you want the first one, which is a new question, because I've asked the same question of everyone for the longest time, and I'm still gonna ask that because I really enjoy it. But I'm curious, I would like to actually begin playing on the name of the show.

What do you feel like, each of you, are the things that the one thing that you're like, yeah, people need to be allowed to say this in church. And that would maybe help the church be a bit more healthy as we try to be more healthy. Because there's a lot of I would argue a lot of toxicity and pain. I saw the new research came out today that like, the amount of church attendance and people that say that their followers of any Christian faith is like at an all time low. Like it actually like shattered records today, I have the news article on my phone, like, legitimately happened today. So what do you think is one thing that you're like? Yeah, if we would allow people to voice this…maybe that's what we should be doing sitting with that?

Cameron Hood 36:46

Yeah, what do we need to be able to say at church?

I suppose I need to be able to say at church that I love Rob Bell. (Seth laughs) That, you know, he's someone who's so criticized. And, you know, there's so many reasons, but I can tell you that I wouldn't be a Christian without Rob Bell.

I mean, I grew up in the church. And I had all that faith, I had all the ways that I thought that it was supposed to work and all the prayers and everything. And it just wasn't sort of working. And I was trying to prove it to myself using the Bible and struggling with inerrancy. And you know, a lot of the themes that you talk about in this podcast. You know, how we read it, and how much we need it to be exactly true. And THE firm foundation and everything. And Rob Bell just gave me a different way to read. It wasn't even, he didn't say, there was one new way to read it. It was just he basically said, “Can we have a conversation about new ways of reading this? Do you think there might be different strands throughout history of ways that people have talked about this, including hell, including women? Could we talk about some of these things and find precedents in the church for these things”?

And that was a resounding, no. 100% we can't talk about this at church, and you're gone.

And that just grieves me. Because that just tells me and sends a message that we're not honest here. That church is not a place that we're honest about things that we're afraid of. It's not a place where we can critically address issues about the Scripture. It's a place where we're rehearsing. And that there's a good part for that. That's what I was talking about earlier, with spiritual formation, there's a good rehearsal, to all of that. But it's basically saying this is not really a place for questions. It's not really a place for conversation. And so everyone who's sitting out there quietly just absorbs that. This is not a place where we really ask questions about things. And that just bums me out. Because if we believe this is ultimate truth, right, if this is the most true thing that there could possibly be then pummel it with every possible question, you know, and it should hold up. But I think we approach it from such a more scared fragile place than that. So maybe that that would be my answer.

Seth Price 39:12

That’s good, it’s good. You started preaching there, and I'm fine with that. I like it.

Cameron Hood 39:20

Dude, I could preach.

Ryan David Green 39:19

I think yeah, I mean, it's similar to what you're saying. I think that the things that come up for me is I think, gosh, what…how about being able to say, “I don't know”, “I'm not sure”. Like, you're tight. Let's have a conversation about let's think about this. Maybe that sort of, it's a dark pressure to always have to know. And also, I feel like what you're saying, what Cameron was saying, but the other thing that comes to mind for me is just how much fear there can be.

Like why … I basically am an agreement of that like, if this is true, if there is a great truth, then whom then shall I fear? What shall I fear? What fear does there need to be? Why do we need to be afraid of us anything, of anything, to be honest of anything? So there's so many things that many that churches are afraid of. And I just feel like why are we afraid of that? Why are we afraid to look at this or to talk to this person? Or, I just, I feel like, I don't know how to articulate it any better than that. I can't preach like Cameron, but that’s what I’ll say.

Seth Price 40:33

Well, it's well, I'm gonna stay with you. Because you reference. Have either of you listen to the show in the past. It's okay if you have not

Cameron Hood 40:38

I have, you’ve had some amazing people.

Ryan David Green 40:42

Cameron has, I haven’t. I'm listening to instrumental guitar, shred, music on my iPod while Cameron’s listening to podcasts. (laughs)

Cameron Hood 40:50

And I'm like, “Whoa, Seth had Dan Koch. Wow! Brian McLaren! NT Wright!”

Seth Price 40:56

Dan is a smart guy. Dan's a smart guy. Brian's all right. No, I'm kidding, Brian is great (laughs)

So, Ryan, I just stay with you. So when you try to wrap words around what it is when you say what God is like, what is that? And then Cameron, I'm gonna ask you the same question in a moment. Like, how do you, what do you say to that?

Ryan David Green 41:17

I mean, what I love about my perception of God is that God is everything. God is the Big Bang. God is like anything that…it's like the answer to everything. You know, it's the explanation for everything in the..the…the…

I don't know how to, hmmm…, I've already kind of said it all I guess.

But that's what I feel like; is that God is creation. Every time I learned anything scientific or medical, or like, I'm just like, what‽ The universe expand is expanding at what rate like, what is going on‽ God is still expanding! Or this can be … this is what maybe the Big Bang started from this or that and it's just all like, I can't not always turn to God and go “Whoa, what”? Like, how? You know, I have no idea. But so my connection my little bit of, I think creating, it feels beautiful to be a creator in a world, in a universe, where God is still creating. Maybe “creation” is the word I would say God is.

Seth Price 42:40

Yeah, I like it. Cameron?

Cameron Hood 42:42

My first thought was like, we're so unqualified to answer this question (we all laugh…also it’s true)

Yeah, and I don't just mean Ryan and I. I mean, like the three of us and like any of us, it seems humankind.

I don't know I guess that you know, the right answer is the “Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger, rich and love.”

You know, the right answer is God is our refuge and our strength. The right answer is the Lord is our light and our salvation. And the right answer is that God is love. And those are important, I don't mean to throw those into the bus. I love what it seems like you're doing here with this podcast, which is you're not throwing out all the all the babies with the bathwater. You know, there's just so much there,

Seth Price is 43:30

I love babies!

Cameron Hood 43:33

We’ve got to hold on to those babies!

Because there's so much good and so much truth. But I think it's like, there's just a bajillion ways of trying to talk about it, because you can't quite pin it down. And you couldn't, you shouldn't be able to. If you ever go, this is what God is you probably don't have it because it has to be bigger. It has to be a higher power.

You know, I love this idea that from Peter Rollins, where he talks about a lot of us, for a lot of us, God is just a projection of like our parents or something that we hope for-the best version of ourselves. He's like, Yeah, that's true. And that's true for a certain part of our development. But another part of our development is that God is a projectile. Literally the thing that comes in and destroys the last thing that you thought you knew. And you had it you had it all figured out about God, God is this. God will literally come in and just break that apart and force you into the next place. The next understanding the next. And I hate that when that happens, man, I hate it more than anything. It's fun to talk about on a podcast, but like, I always feel lost. I feel you know.

We have this first song on the album Under the Leaves is the song under the leaves. And that's really, to me, that's a song to God like the whole time. And it just is like it's talking about God like a wind that it's like rustling under the leaves. And you're like there's something there and I don't know how I could grab it. I just feel like I need to be here for it. I need to kind of breathe it in. I need to get quiet enough to listen to it. And I need to it well, let me think what it says it's like,

at morning I'm waiting
at evening I sing
at midnight I need you
and moments between
in movements I'm making
in thoughts I don't speak
in ways you've been breaking
my statues to me.

So that's the projectile idea, right? Every idea that I have of myself, God is happy to just sort of kind of knock over. And it's just like, somewhere under the leaves. It's somewhere under my breathing. And so I don't know, it's just this that thing that you can't ever quite catch, but you're like it's there. And I somehow feel like it's helping me. I somehow feel like it's pulling me forward into something good. I somehow feel like that thing wants the world to be a little bit more loving. I somehow feel like that thing wants people to be fairer, to each other and to not hurt kids, and to not mistreat other races-people who are not like us-and to not subjugate women. I somehow feel like it's pulling me into something better. But I'm definitely going to kick and scream the whole way.

Seth Price 46:02

Are you familiar, you talked about like, a projectile like breaking things. Are you familiar with like a Japanese practice called kintsugi?

Cameron Hood 46:10

Ah, I've heard of this, can you tell me about this?

Seth Price 46:12

So it's one of the ways that I like to view god, it's actually I've been, I've been wrestling with a few artistic expressions of God, like taking art and being like, that feels like God to me. One of them is kintsugi, though. So basically, it's like when you take pottery, or pottery that's been damaged, like a vessel that's been damaged. And you let it finish being broken. And those pieces lie where they are. And then you bring it back together. But like you knit it back together with like precious metals, like gold or silver, or something like that. And so when it's formed and fashioned and back together, it's literally stronger than it was when it began, because that's how welds work. But it's also beautiful, like, it's literally like at the seams bursting with precious metals. And it's just like, radiant and wonderful, and amazing. And I often think sometimes that that's like an attribute of God. Like this was this. And it was good when it was that and now it's this and look at these seams. Look at the…look how pretty the seams are. Look what we've done. Look what we've done together.

Cameron Hood 47:10

It's in like the very patterns that the gold is following are the places where it's broken. Right. So that's like all the tears I thought were wasted. You know, all the places that we would rather avoid and making the pattern the beautiful shapes and patterns.

Seth Price 47:24

Yeah. So I have no idea when the album's out. It might already be out now. I don't think it is.

Ryan David Green 47:29

It’s close, soon. April 16. Okay,

Seth Price 47:31

So I also don't know exactly when this episode were released. So let's just pretend that the album is out. What is the best way in the world that we live in, COVID wise now, to support y'all to listen to the album. Like Where should people go and go? Here's how I can help.

Ryan David Green 47:48

Yeah, jump into it. I mean, so we're Ryanhood. It's like Robin Hood but Ryanhood one word, you just go to Ryanhood.com and get it there. And that's the best way and we'll send you a record or a CD. The cool thing about this, this album is that we made a book that goes with it. So a large book full of art and full of essays and stories about all the songs. And so if you're a streamer and you want to stream the album, grab the book and sit in your lounge chair and read through the lyrics and the stories behind the songs while you do that. It's a great way to take it in.

And then the the even bigger way to you can support us, which we all know about Patreon here and this podcast is we've got a Patreon as well. And we've been having a blast. Every Sunday we do a live Zoom hang half hour Hangout. Which they run an hour they're never half hour but doesn't have any alliteration or it sounded better with half hour hangout and get to sort of connect in person with people and tell stories and share things on that platform.

Seth Price 48:53

Well, good. Thank you. You're both through evening tonight. And thanks for sitting to the album. I've enjoyed listening to it. I continue to listen to it.

Ryan David Green 49:01

Yeah, and thanks for starting with the instrumental guitar jam. That's my love language right there.

Seth Price 49:09

Well, it felt out of place to me, I'm like, why is it there's no way I kept…so I'd like like a minute and a half. I was like, Alright, so somebody is gonna start singing. And then at two minutes like literally the tempo changes like I forget, it's like 1:58 2:01 like literally the song changes. And I was like, huh, and then it's always right about then I'm like, well, I gotta go to work. Turn it off and yeah…

Ryan David Green 49:31

We'll see now I'm realizing I missed it. I thought that it was it was perhaps your favorite but now it seems if just made you uncomfortable; and that’s okay too!

Seth Price 49:40

No no! It's okay to be uncomfortable. But no, it's a fun jam. It does infuriate me because I can't play the way that either of you play. I have no idea who's playing on either of those. I'm a decent guitarist, but I'm by no means a “guitarist”. I'm in a boat. Really appreciate you both coming on. I enjoyed it.

Ryan David Green/Cameron Hood 50:03

Thank you, sir. Thanks for having us.

Cameron Hood 50:05

Thanks for opening and closing with such big questions. This is like any interview that we've had yet.

Seth Price 50:26

Well, that is it for this week. That is the show. Thank you so very much for listening. Now, I also want to thank Andrew Parks for becoming the newest patron of the show, people like him are amazing, and make the show go. So if you can, if you're able to join him right over there. And you can find links for that in the show notes.

Very Special thanks to Ryanhood for allowing me to use their music in this week's episode. And you should go and listen to that. It's been a while since I added music but there's still that playlist for all of the music that's ever been featured on the show. And today's tracks are added to that. Also, today's tracks are added to that. Now a couple quick programming things we're coming close to the end of my children's school year. And last year, I did something that was very healthy, for me, at least. And I went to an every other form of releases, and I rereleased different things in between etc. So there will still be weekly releases starting probably in June for the summer or at least a summer break.

But they will not be always what you're expecting. And so bear with me for the summer. But I think it's really important that we all take a rest sometimes. And so with that said, if you can support the show any way that you can. A huge thank you to Cameron and Ryan for their music and for their conversation today. I pray that you’re blessed, that you’re well, that things are better this year than they were last year.

We'll talk next week.