Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and volunteers (I see you Logan!) and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Seth Price  0:00 

Well, happy day there, everybody. How are you doing? I'm Seth, welcome back to the show. A couple quick, quick announcements. I also want to say very much, “Thank you.” So let me thank you first. To the patrons of the show, I know a lot of people don't listen to the end of the show, because I get some demographics on that, and some data on that. Thank you so much for supporting the show. Literally, it's like a Christmas gift every month. And so thank you so very much. You make the show go. And I don't have better words than “Thank you.” But I'm so grateful. Now, my life in December is about to get very busy. Busier, more so than normal. So where I work during the day is going through a merger. And I'm having multiple hats to fill every single day. So my availability to record new episodes during the month of December is really only like six days, for the entire month. And so I will do my best to ensure that we get new content every week. There may be an episode or two, that is not new content. And so I will do my best to choose something that I think is beneficial for me, and by proxy, hopefully you, to have kind of released out into the world. Thank you in advance for your understanding of that. And with that said, this week, I brought on James Danaher. Now I'm gonna call him Jim, because we're good like that. However, he wrote a book about the bicameral brain in Jesus. And it is really, really good. It is a new way of lenses to kind of view and rethink the gospel in knowing and being a bit on doctrines and theologies. And I absolutely love the left hemisphere versus right hemisphere kind of back and forth and ebb and flow when we think about the Gospels. And so I hope that you get as much out of this conversation as I did. The book is also very fantastic. So without further ado, let's go.

James Danaher, welcome back to the show. I think I had you on like three or four years ago. So time flies. I couldn't remember exactly where I was sitting at my old church office somewhere. So it's been some years. Welcome back, man. I'm glad you're here.

James Danaher 2:30

It's good to be back.

Seth Price 2:31

What um, what's been new? So it's been four years we've had an entire presidency come in and out. What's new since we talked less?

James Danaher  2:37 

It really had an enormous effect on me. You know, I taught at an evangelical college for 29 years. And I thought I understood evangelicalism, I thought I was an evangelical. And then five years ago, everything changed. And what I've really been working on these last five years is trying to explain that. How, how did evangelicalism end up where it's ended up? And I think this book, in particular, Jesus in the Bicameral Brain tries to explain that. The level of consciousness that the left brain gives us access to is the world. It's the culture. It's everything we've learned about how to live in the world. And it's, it's based on survival of the fittest. It's the subject-object relationship. It's me against the world. It's the basis for our economy. You know, Adam Smith says that we don't expect our dinner from the benevolence of the butcher and the baker, but from their self interest. And the left brain is all about self interest. And I see evangelicals; they, it's about being saved. “I'm saved. I'm not going to hell, end of story, leave me alone”. And I just see Evangelicalism as reducing Jesus to the Jewish Messiah. He pays for our sins. He's the blood sacrifice. He's the scapegoat end of story. You believe that and you're going to heaven. What else do you need to know? Well, what about the words of Jesus? And my argument is, Jesus does not appeal to the left brain? The left brain thinks that’s stupid – nonviolence, you know. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you? 

Seth Price 4:25

Yeah.

James Danaher 4:26

Love your enemy. You know, Judge no one. Forgive everyone. That's crazy stuff to the left brain. And that's why I think prayer is so important. One of the central chapters in this, this book on Jesus in the bicameral brain, is the idea of prayer as a different level of consciousness. And it's the contemplative practice of silence and solitude and getting to that, that place where you're no longer in the world. Now you disconnect from the world, and you get down to that deeper place and from that deeper place, you can see the beauty and goodness of Jesus’ words. And they can't be from, from where we are in the world. And that's why we've made Christianity, or at least evangelicals have, into something that's just something to believe. It's a doctrine to believe, rather than the words of Jesus really taking root at the core of our being. It’s transforming.

Seth Price  5:17 

Yeah, it's not a way to live for me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, very much so. I am, I forget who it is. I was listening to something the other day, it might have been a sermon, or it was a pastor expounding upon a sermon. And he had said that he’d basically teach the Beatitudes. And didn't really, he worked them in using different words. So we'll call it like the “paraphrased Message translation” and never even gave the people the text, just expounded for a little while on how we should really operate in the world that we live in. And people lit him up for it. And then afterwards was like, by the way, I was, I was paraphrasing, this, and this and this, and then people, like, were really taken aback and he's like, I don't know why you're so mad at me. I presented it in this way intentionally. And we're gonna need to do something with this anger. Yeah, very much. So I do want to talk to you about prayer. So I've only written down three or four questions, prayer is in that. The rest of them are more, “Can you expound on this?” It's been long enough, Jim. So the first time we chatted, I like scripted every question because I had no confidence in my ability to ask good questions. Since then, I realized the only person the podcast is actually for is me, and if anyone else likes to listen to it, that's great. But it needs to be my earnest questions. Can we, I want to rewind a bit. What is a bicameral brain? We joked earlier before I hit the go button, or I had already hit go but I'm gonna edit that part out. What is, like, bicameral? Like what is that to begin with? Just to kind of set a level set because left brain right brain you know, you'll you'll see stupid things on the internet about why all women are left brain or why all men are right brained, or why all bankers are left brained or artist or right, but you know what I mean? What is that? What's, what's bicameral, anything really.

James Danaher  7:05 

There's a great book by Ian McGilchrist, who's an Oxford scholar, who published a book in 2009, called The Master and His Emissary. And what he argues in it is that we’ve become a left brain culture, where the left brain supposes itself to be the master. And the right brain is more or less the dullard brother, whatever. And he argues, it's just the opposite. It's the right brain that gives us access to the moral, to the aesthetic, to the imagination. And it's just modern culture, especially starting with Descartes. My specialty was history of philosophy, specializing in modern philosophy. I did my dissertation on John Locke on real and nominal essences, and I'm a great opponent of Descartes. And this is what McGilchrist comes out to, against too. And he's constantly showing us that the left brain acts [?] what's really the emissary and his analogy is that the master of any domain can't do all the little details. So he gets an emissary. And he sends the emissary out. And the emissary does all the little, you know, donkey work. And after a while, though, the emissary starts believing that they're really the important one. What do we need, or I'm the one that's doing all this work. And the emissary becomes, or, or sees himself as the master. And what McGilchrist is saying, if we go back historically, before the modern period, we see that it was always the right brain. Plato, it's always the right brain that's the master; for Socrates, for Plato. That starts to change with Aristotle. But in the modern period, with Descartes, it becomes all left brain. And religion is just a left brain thing. It's about what do you believe? What you believe is what's gonna keep you out of hell. Really? Where does Jesus say that? Jesus is always talking about your being, and that's why the distinction I make is the left brain is about knowing, especially knowing that world, it's what connects us to the world. And the right brain is what connects us to being. You know, when Jesus says that He is the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIGHT, He's not talking about a truth that's something to know. He's talking about a truth that's something that's both beautiful and good as well as true. Aristotle had said that human beings are involved in three basic activities: making, doing, and knowing. When we make, we want to make what's beautiful. When we do, we want to do what's good. And when we know, we want to know what's true. And that was the ancient wisdom that the truth was about your truth. How am I manifesting my beauty and my goodness? In the modern period, look at modern science: it has nothing to do with beauty or goodness. it's just about, we just want to know. And Protestant is, I heard a scholar say the other day, that Protestantism is the first religion, especially evangelicalism, I guess, first religion in the history of the world that only requires a belief. It doesn't go beyond belief. It doesn't have a moral element. I believe that Jesus died for my sins, He's the Messiah, and he paid for my sins. And they equate the forgiveness of sins with righteousness. And Jesus never does that. Jesus equates righteousness with the virtues that he talks about. Become His mercy, His forgiveness, His love to the world.

Seth Price  10:50 

You talk about anomalous data. And that's a word that I've practiced this morning, because that is a hard word to say. And I'm gonna paraphrase two different parts of it. Right at the beginning of the book, there among the first things that I underlined. So you talk about, like, you know, the left, the left brain acquiring knowledge, and the right brain seems to have access to anomalous data. And then you say, people with excessive security needs will tend to avoid anomalous data, and cling to what they purport to know. And then a little further, you say that those things that are anomalous, are inherited understanding, and we ignore them, because Jesus's words will always be filtered out by what we have inherited. What do you mean by like, what we've inherited and anomalous data?

James Danaher  11:34 

You know, I did a book a couple of years ago. And it was about, it was the history of philosophy. As that kind of critical thinking, where, you know, the first stage of learning is just acquiring data. And after we get a lot of data, then we can become critical thinkers and look at data in comparison to our understanding. But the philosophical level of thinking goes beyond that, and it sees within the understanding itself anomalies; things that, wait, that doesn't make sense. That doesn't make sense. And it's rethinking your foundations. And I think that's what Jesus is constantly calling us to do. Jesus is constantly speaking against the culture. And faith, I think a lot of people think, is, no, faith is never seeing the anomaly. So ignoring the anomalies – “Well, I just believe, you know?” Okay, fine. But the deeper life that Jesus is calling us to is, is seeing the anomalies in the things that he says  and how different that is from the culture. There's Lectio Divina is the Catholic reading scripture. And it's doing the reading and seeing the problem, in that – you know, I was with a group of men the other day, and we're going through the Sermon on the Mount, and Jesus says, right after the beginning of chapter five in the sermon; he says he didn't come to do away with the the law and the prophets, but to fulfill. And then he gives six examples of what the law says. And then what he says that's completely contrary to the law.

Seth Price  13:27 

Yeah. But I tell you, yeah.

James Danaher  13:29 

What do you do with that? And I said that to a pastor a little while ago, and the pastor said, Well, Jesus says that he didn't come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. Okay, but then look what he does. How do you explain that? That's supposed to draw you into God's presence and get you to spend enough time in God's presence, and get to that deeper level of consciousness where God will explain it to you. You know, Jesus says that the Father will send the advocate – the Holy Spirit – and He will explain all things to you and remind you of all that I have said. But you have to sit with what Jesus says. Jesus is the Word of God, not the Bible. I hear people constantly say, “Well, the Bible is the Word of God.” It never says it's the word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. That's what it says in John, the first chapter. And it says that in Revelation, his name is the Word of God. 

Seth Price 14:23

Yeah.

James Danaher 14:25

 And it's Jesus’ words. I think one of the greatest parables is the parable of the sower. Jesus says, a man about to sow seed. And then he explains the parable to the, to the disciples. And he says that the seed is the Word of God. And it only takes root in 25% of the people that hear it. According to the parable, He says it falls on four different grounds. Only one of those grounds takes root; the other three grounds it doesn't take root. And there's, there's a chapter in the book on the parable of the sower. And the next chapter is a chapter on Christianity Lite. And what I argue is that, what do you do with the other 75% of the people who hear the words and it doesn't take root when you create Christianity Lite, which is a belief in Jesus and Jesus’ death on the cross, but it has nothing to do with the words of Jesus?

Seth Price  15:24 

Yeah, you actually say in here, I like, there's a part in Christianity Lite, you jump there before I was going there but I'm already on that page. Like that's where the bookmark was left. What are you saying here? Christianity Lite is usually quick to agree with that statement. And what you're talking about – inherited world – about what did you put in here? Jesus's words are heretical to most popular forms of Christianity since the basis for most forms of Christianity is inherited, is our inherited cultural understanding. And you go on to say, and you know, most people argue that liberals have made our culture into something ungodly, but in truth many agnostics and atheists live closer to the teachings of Jesus than many Bible believing Christians. Which, 100% 100, 100% Agree 128%. Yeah.

James Danaher  16:08 

The end of that chapter though, I do say that it's not that Christianity Lite is a false gospel; it's just an elementary gospel. Where else would you start? How else? I mean, I can't imagine I know Jesus sold his message to the disciples. But to sell his message to the world today, it almost looks like you have to start with – I know, I didn't, I didn't get to this place. It took me 45, 50 years to get to this place. It's a journey. This transformation that God is calling us to. And it starts, I guess, with a belief. And it starts with a notion that God is, you know, God is this sovereign ruler who gives us these laws and punishes disobedience. And, but if you stay with it, and especially start paying attention to the words of Jesus. Jesus, the most important thing Jesus ever said, was “our Father.” He says it 16 times in the sermon alone, he says, Our Father, your father, your heavenly Father. If God is your Father, that changes everything. Sin is no longer a matter of obedience and in order to avoid punishment, that's, that's not who fathers are. When you're a little kid, you might think that; you might think all my father wants is for me to obey.

Seth Price  17:39 

I think my kids would agree with that.

James Danaher  17:41 

Yeah, exactly. As you get older, you realize no, the reason why he's telling you that is he wants you to experience the fullness of life. And it’s + what keeps you from the fullness of life. It's not what pisses God off. But it takes years to get to that place. And it takes basically the death of the false self. Yeah, the false self wants. I just want, I don't want to look at myself, I just want to pretend that I am who I project to the world. And that's the real me. And what deep prayer does is, it's really a form of therapy. If you spend a lot of time in God's presence at that deeper level of consciousness, all the junk that is usually the result of childhood wounds that have formed our personalities, formed our false self, comes to the surface and we're able to let them go, you know?

Seth Price  18:39 

Yeah. Yeah, if I, if I was to say everything that you just said specifically about sin; I walked into a random church in the middle of Indiana, or Oklahoma or Texas or whatever. They would, they would run me out as a heretic. So being your relationship to the evangelical world, especially with your relationship with Nyack College, how does this come across to people that maybe don't have a personal relationship with you? Where they're like, ”Yeah, Jim has literally drunk all of the Kool-Aid, high as a kite over there. He's believing in a different gospel.” You know, you get the heretic word thrown around which I like what you say about heresy. You say heretics have always represented a threat to the security that most people derive from believing just what everybody else believes. Which I… So what would happen if I walked into a church and literally just repeated what you said about sin? And to be clear, I have said similar things in a church about sin, especially to my kid. I most recently said, because he did something that was overtly intentionally sinful. So I walked him through, you know, hamartia and how it's an archery term and you're intentionally missing the mark or maybe unintentionally but either way you missed the mark. And the wages of that are things die. In this case, it was a relationship with a friend. That, it was the wages of that death and you killed that relationship. Make better choices and instead you, things come alive. But that's a different thing. And people get mad on Sunday, if you say that in certain churches. So how is this received by people that aren't necessarily as heretical as me? 

James Danaher  20:19 

My philosophy majors would get it. And they were, there are some evangelicals, well yourself as an example, that are seeing this. They've been on the journey, and they've gotten someplace. But I think a lot of people, a lot of people tell me, “Look, I just don't want to go to hell. You know, I don't want to get crazy with this Jesus thing. I just don't want to go to hell, Jesus is my Savior.” Okay. But that's not what Jesus is talking about.

Seth Price  20:48 

And then I turn around and tell them, you're creating hell with your decisions right now. It's not a place you're going, it's a place you're making, and you miss the whole point. And then I get a glazed over look.

James Danaher  20:59 

Yeah. My next book is, the basis for it is, God is love. God is unconditional love. And he wants to make us into His likeness. But in order, and not only did God make us with love at the core of our being in His likeness, but he also made us in His likeness by making us free. And we're able to direct that love, however we wish. And Jesus tells us the best things to love and the worst things to love. And the best things to love are what put us in the heavenly state, and the worst things to love are what put us in it in hell. Did you know Jesus, one of the greatest things that Jesus ever said, in the fifth chapter of John's gospel, he says, The Father judges no one, but God has given all judgment to the sun. And then the 12th chapter of John, he says, and I judged no one. But you do have a judge. The words that I've spoken to you will be your judge. And I take that to mean Jesus tells us the best things to love and the worst things to love. And the worst things to love are the things that the world tells us to love: wealth, power, prestige, fame, you know. That's what the world tells you want to be happy; that's good enough money. Jesus has eight teachings against money. Eight teachings against money! We pay no attention to that! Well, there's nothing now, it's the love of money that's–

Seth Price  22:29 

Well, capitalism, you're aware that we're capitalist, right? Money is the money is the thing.

James Danaher  22:33 

Exactly. I don't know if it's in this book. But I often talk because I have a graduate degree in the social sciences as well. And years ago, I used to teach economics. And I would tell the students all the time, money has three functions: It's a means of exchange, to overcome barter; it's a store of value capital; but it's also the measure of value. How good is that car? How good is that suit? And we measure just like we measure distance in miles, we measure value in dollars. Yeah. And that's the great lie. That's the great lie. And the prosperity gospel that incorporates that into the gospel and says, “No, Jesus wants you to be wealthy.” Okay? You have to ignore everything that Jesus said, because it's just the opposite – that it's poverty, it's being reduced to who you are in God, which means the death of the false self, the self that you've created to be in the world has to die. That's the transformation. I was in the world for a long time. Somebody told me this once: they said, You know, when somebody meets you… I was a quarterback. When I was a kid, from the time I was eight years old, I was a quarterback in high school, I was a quarterback in college. And somebody told me recently, they said, you know, when somebody meets you, they don't find out that you have a doctorate or you're a professor, or, but and you've got nine books out; but within the first half an hour, they're going to know that you were a quarterback. What the hell's that all about? That's the false self. That's, I was always little. And I was told I was too little to play in high school. And then after high school, they told me Yeah, too little to play in college, you know. And that that was just such a drive that was, you know, that's this false self that I've created. And then I added to that false self by getting a PhD and by writing books and stuff like that. But that's not who God created. God created that self, who I was before the world got ahold of me and started making. It's like this. That's what the experience is: get back to who you were before the world got ahold of you. That's why Jesus says unless you become like a little child, you'll never inherit the kingdom of heaven? You know. It's about becoming who God made me to be, and not who the world made me to be. But we fall in love with ourselves, you know, and love we have that freedom we can attach. My favorite definition of love is based on an early 20th century Spanish philosopher, Ortega y Gasset. Says what love is, is attention abnormally fixed. The things, you know, we say, Oh, I love this. And I love that. Really? Is your attention abnormally fixed upon those things?

Seth Price  25:36 

Yeah what you love is your iPhone, that's what you love. You love that phone, so–

James Danaher  25:42 

But, you know, it's about abnormally fixing your attention on the things of God. And the best place to do that is just to take the words of Jesus, especially the words that don't make any sense, you know, unless you hate your mother and father, your brothers and sisters, even your own life, you can't be my disciple. What does that mean? Where did you get your cultural values? Where did you get, How did the world get into you? Through your family, or your culture, and you think that's who you are. That is not who you are. That's the lie. And you're never going to hear the words of Jesus until that self starts to die. And you start to identify with who you are in God. And that only happens through prayer. And not prayer, bah-bah-bah-bah-bah, you know, all the petitions to God. Just shut up. Shut up. You know, with God, that's why Jesus says in the sermon, you know, get in, get into your inner room. Now that obviously is a metaphor for that deeper level of consciousness. Be still be still and know that I am God, you know? It's from a place that you can see the words of Jesus and how beautiful and good they are.

Seth Price  26:57 

Give me a minute, we'll be right back. [Chip crunch] 

You use a word, it, early on in your book, and I want to relate it to liminal spaces, mostly because that's something my pastor talks about a lot. And so I'd like to get your context of what you mean when you say liminal space and how that relates to your book. But you use the word Behold, in a way that I don't use it. So I read Behold, and in my mind, it's a left brain activity. It's take note of this, behold, I've arrived at work. Behold, yeah, you know, I paid my taxes. But you're using Behold, as a saying, you know, it means don't miss this experience, which is really more of a right brain activity. But how does like the verb of beholding, which feels like that's not a real sentence? Maybe it is. How does that like, what is that? And then maybe how does that connect to liminal spaces, which are in two different chapters, but I'm gonna make them go together because it feels right to me.

James Danaher  28:07 

Right. I get that. That word Behold, from the woman just mentioned a little while ago, Maggie Ross, is her pen name. Martha Reeves is a real name. And she wrote a book a number of years ago called Silence: A Reader's Guide, A User's Guide, I'm sorry. And she defines Behold, in a way that I'd never heard it before. It's about not knowing. It's not about paying attention to something in order to know something. But it's being awestruck by something; something that goes beyond the imagination;something that just grabs a hold of you. That's the mystery. You know, we've made the cross into an 11th century atonement theory, when, it, the cross is this mystery of God, that God enters the world. He gives himself away to the world. In a way, that's just unbelievable. And that's what beholding is, beholding is not knowing something, it's not knowing. And it's, it's the not knowing that is the basis for the journey. Once, I say all the time when people say “I know God,” I don't, that's another way of saying, I've gone far enough. You know, I've gone far enough with God, I'm not going any further. Okay, fine, fine. But understand that you're creating your own eternal nature and character. God doesn't judge us. He allows us to create our own eternal nature and character by the things we love. And the best thing you can love is Jesus, and wanting to be like him. You know, the Old Testament is about Moses giving a law. It's about God meeting people in the world. Jesus’ words are about the kingdom and bringing the kingdom to Earth. How do you do that? Well, you make his word your own and you, you repent over them enough and repent against the things that the world tells you to love. Until those words really start taking root within you. And you suddenly find yourself not suddenly, But after years of doing this, you find yourself, you don't judge other people. You just start to be God's love to the world. And, it's amazing what happens. Instead of you reacting to people, and “Well I've got to show that guy, he may think he can talk to me that way–” No, start loving that person, and they melt in front of you. It's the, it's the most unbelievable power in the world. But I think most of us say: “Look, I just want to receive God's love and God's forgiveness. I don't want to become God's forgiveness to the world. That's what that's who Jesus is. I can't be like Jesus.” Well, that's exactly what he's calling you to do. He's called to be His disciples, to be His mercy, forgiveness, and love to the world. You know?

Seth Price  31:02 

Yeah. Yeah. What is? What? No, no, no, what is a liminal space? What is that?

James Danaher  31:11 

Ah, liminal space is that, that space that isn't occupied, it's the, it's, it's the place of prayer. When you're in a place of prayer. You're not in the world any longer. You're in that place that's, that's sacred. That's, but it takes real practice. If you don't keep on, you know, when I talk to people, I ask them, What's your practice? They go, What do you mean, what’s your practice? Well, how many times a day do you get alone with God and for how long? Oh, I don't have time to get alone with God. I am so busy. Yeah I know everybody's busy. And it's not right for me to talk about this, because I'm retired now. I can hang out with God, three, four hours a day, just practicing his presence. You, You read, Brother Lawrence’s Practicing the Presence of God?

Seth Price 32:07

I have not.

James Danaher 32:09

It's a great book. It's a little tiny book. It's about a 17th century monk who wrote one book in his life. He was the, he wasn't even the cook in the monastery – he was the dishwasher in the monastery. But what he would do as he was washing the dishes and pots and pans, is he would practice the presence of God; being conscious of God's presence. And there's some times where you get really quiet and really in a solitary place in that inner room, and you start to experience God's presence enough that you come to identify with who you are in that presence, rather than who you are in the world. I think that's how transformation takes place. You have to have that prayer practice. I listened to Thomas Keating a lot. You know, Thomas Keating the– He's, he's just the best. I'm a big fan of Richard Rohr. I spent 11 weeks a dozen years ago with Richard Rohr. And he's had a big influence on my life, but Keating, Keating just takes it to another level. He died–

Seth Price  33:19 

2008, right? 2008, nine or something like that? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, so is, Do you feel like prayer is predominantly a left brain or right brain thing? 

James Danaher  33:33

Oh no it’s all right brain.

Seth Price  33:35

So how do I get into that? Because I have inherited a left brain. And even like in the, even like, in a more less even like a less of a Protestant way. There's so much rote memorization and ceremony attached to it that you can just put it on autopilot. So how do I? How do I begin to do that?

James Danaher  33:55 

Yeah. I was just at a high school. I get together with some of the people I went to high school with for lunch from time to time. And they asked me to pray before we had lunch. And so sorry, I don't pray in public anymore. You know, in the sermon, in the sixth chapter, Jesus says, he talks about three things: almsgiving, prayer and fasting – three religious activities. And he says the same thing about all three: don't do it in public. Don't do it in public. Don't do it in public. And then he does the Lord's Prayer–

Seth Price  34:32 

–in public. [Laughs]

James Danaher  34:36 

[Laughs] I know. When you're in a room, shut the door, shut the door, you know, get alone. This relationship with God is personal. It's personal. And when you're in public, you're always the false self. My wife is a great worshiper. She loves worship, and that's where she meets God. I'm not a worshiper, and I think it's Because when I'm in public, I'm the false self. I'm the false self. And it's only when I get alone, and in the solitude, and that, I think the first scripture I ever heard when I became a Christian was: Be still and know that I am God. You know. And it's about being still and knowing that He is God and spending time in that silence. And that Scripture is so true. The Father will send the Holy Spirit who will explain all things and remind you of all that I've said. And that's the purpose of prayer. The purpose of prayer is to allow the soil of our soul to take those Jesus words, and have them take root within us. They don't take root with who we are in the world. And when we're in the world with the phonies that we've created to be in the world, and God is always looking to deal with us on a deeper level.

Seth Price  36:01 

Yeah. So if we're – so I agree with the false self thing. I'm a big fan of the Enneagram because my pastor turned me on to it. And I don't know if you studied that or not, but it's helped me. It's helped. You said you haven't?

James Danaher  36:14 

No, no Susan Sebille is a personal friend of mine

Seth Price  36:18 

And then you definitely have Yes.

James Danaher  36:21 

Yes, we've had some great times together actually.

Seth Price  36:24 

Yeah. Yeah. So I can say, as I was wrestling with some of my, whatever makes me me. There's a listlessness, or listing. If you want to use a metaphor of like a boat out at sea, of uncomfortability. And often I found that there were not places to safely take that in a way to reorient or re-orient oneself to the horizon, either in your faith or in your personal relationships. And so if you're going to begin in that work, what would you say for you, Jim, is maybe something that someone could hear saying, Yeah, expect this to hurt or expect it not to hurt but here are ways or practices to kind of reorient yourself, because it is going to get bumpy because you're you're disinheriting everything that you've inherited, but you're not forgetting those things. And those are easy to fall back on.

James Danaher  37:15 

Yeah. Well, I'm a three on the Enneagram. You know what the sin of the three is?

Seth Price  37:23 

You’re a quarterback. Absolutely. [Laughs]

James Danaher  37:27 

That’s right. I'm in charge, I'm in charge, it is what we're gonna do. And I've gotten a lot out of any grip, the place I'm at now in my walk, you know, a John of the Cross and the dark night sense, and then the dark night of spirit. And I've done a lot of dying, that that false self, but I think the only way you can see the sin of the false self of the, the Enneagram, whatever your number is– 

Seth Price 37:58

five 

James Danaher 37:59

–is your bed. Yeah. You have, you're five?

Seth Price  38:02 

Which is why that left brain thing hurts so much to let go of.

James Danaher  38:07 

You know what, when I was with Richard Rohr a dozen years ago, there was another guy that was an intern there, they had a program that you could be in turn with Richard Groys, CAC, either for a year or 11 weeks, and I was on sabbatical at the time, so the 11 weeks were perfect. Yeah, but one of the other interns was a five. And he would sit up on top of the guest house roof, and just watch, just watch, you know, it's avarice, but it's intellectual avarice. It's what I want to know. I want to know, I want to know,” you know, and maybe that's why liminal has, you know, I don't like that liminal space. I want to know, I want to figure this out. But by taking me down to that place, where it was just me and God, and I was confident enough in God's love, that he could show me who I was in the world. And the fact that it was ugly. And the fact that I saw how despicable I was – it was okay, I could do that. Because he had a hold of me, you know, yeah, it's a father telling you, it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. But do you see this like what you did the other day with your son? You know, do you see what, what you did? It's okay. It's okay. Because I'm your father and I love you. But I'm showing you how this, this is not who you are. This is not who I'm calling you to be. There's a deeper you, there's a better you, but you got to get rid of that, that you that the world created. And we've all been created by these wounds that we suffered in childhood. You know, I was little and I hated being little and being told “well, you you're you're not big enough to to be a quarterback.” You know, now they have quarterbacks you, you know… When I was in college to the other quarterback was 6’4”, you know, and I'm 5’9”, and but I had a better arm than him, but–

Seth Price  40:11 

All you need is good blockers and a good arm; the height isn't all that important. Yeah.

James Danaher  40:15 

I never had good blockers. But it's that person that you're trying to make yourself into. And finally consenting. And I think this is what prayer is: it's consenting to allow that person to die. In order that the, the you that God created begins to come forth,

Seth Price  40:36 

Do you think our churches do that? Well, do you think our churches give us a place to come prepared to grieve for that person that's dying? Because there is a loss there.

James Danaher  40:45 

Yeah, yeah. That's, I think, the mercy of God. And if you don't have it – if you have a church that's all about righteousness, and being righteous, no, you can't tolerate anything. It's the kind of church that that Jesus is trying to create, is a church full of mercy, and full of forgiveness, you know, the, and our problem is we create churches that are righteous, you know, and Evangelicalism is about righteousness, and pointing at abortionist and pointing at homosexuals, and what does that have to do with you? What does that have to do with, you know, where's your sin? And that's what, what's so neat about Jesus, as he keeps on showing us the sin is deeper, the sin is deeper, the sin is deeper. If you pay attention to his words, he's going to reveal the sin at ever deeper levels. So his mercy will continue to flow through you to the world. But you've got to be a sinner. You know what, when Jesus says, Take this, take the log out of your own eye, in order to see the splinter in the other person's eye. And we interpret that as Oh, well, you got to take the sin out of your own. I know, a log is not the sin. It's righteousness, take the righteousness out of your own eye. So you can see the sin in somebody else's eye. You know, the wisdom of Alcoholics Anonymous: only sinners can minister to sinners, make sure you know you're a sinner if you're going to be able to minister to sinners. And we go no, oh, you have to be righteous to minister to sinners. Oh, shut up. You’re just a righteous jerk.

Seth Price  42:24 

That's the episode title right there. “Oh, shut up.” That's the episode title.

James Danaher  42:27 

You know […] you haven’t spent a lot of time with God. Because God would reveal, God's faithful to reveal that sin on ever deeper levels in order to transform you into His likenessThat's the gospel.

Seth Price  42:40 

Yeah that's the episode title right there. Oh, shut up a couple exclamation points.

James Danaher  42:51 

Just like, Oh, God, God, God, Oh, God. Oh, god. Oh, Shut up.

Seth Price  42:57 

I love it. Love it. Love it. So a couple two questions left, maybe three. But I feel like you're not going to answer the third. So but we'll, we'll go with that. So as, as your experience has, has led you to think about this, if you have at all. For the next few years – so let's say the next three or four years, what do you feel like are the most important things that the congregants of any church body, or faith body really, for that matter, should be allowed to talk about without fear of getting like ostracized and kicked out? And if we don't, it's going to just continue to degrade the church as a whole? Well, those things you should be able to talk about, like, what can I do? Or should I? 

James Danaher  43:38 

Right. A prayer practice that really is about getting down to a level beneath the level that the world has a hold of you. And, you know, Catholics have a much better understanding of this than evangelicals do. Evangelicals think no, who I am in the world, this false self is who God created. This is me. No, it's not. No, it's not. And if you paid attention to Jesus’ word you'd see; but the only way to pay attention to Jesus's words is through prayer, and not verbal prayers, but getting alone with God and being still in his presence. You know? Go ahead.

Seth Price  44:20 

So I have a sarcastic question. Because I want to, and I feel like it. So if we're, if we're praying only and, and, you know, and, and I can't think of the word. If we're praying alone. You know, not, not in public. How does one pray for the food at Thanksgiving? Because that's coming up here soon. How do we do that? 

James Danaher 44:44

I think that's okay. 

Seth Price 44:45

Punt it to the kid. Just let the kids pray.

James Danaher  44:47 

But don’t think that…that’s your prayer life. You know, don't tell me about prayer. I pray every meal I pray [...] that’s not the prayer life that Jesus is calling you to. Jesus is calling you to get alone with the Father and have enough confidence in his hold on you that you can see your sin at ever deeper levels.

Seth Price  45:10 

Yeah, yeah. Yeah I like that. Um Okay, so the last real final question. So when you try to wrap words around explaining what God or the divine or whatever word you want to use there is to people – What would you say to that if I was to say, “Hey Jim, what/who is the heck God? What is that?

James Danaher  45:34 

You know, I don't think that the concepts, the words, and the theology has that much to do with it. It's about “are Jesus' words really taking root within your life?” That's why I think when we get to the other side, we're gonna see atheists that have a big place in that kingdom. And people who profess to be these great Christians – they're not there. They're not there. It's about what do you love? Do you know, I just recently had a buddy of mine die. And I just, I was watching a giant, this– do a little bit of a story. But I've never really had a male friend, you know, a buddy. I've had a lot of acquaintances. But about 20-some years ago, my next door neighbor, we had moved into this new townhouse and he had moved in next door with his wife. And he was a giant fan. And I'm a giant fan. And he was asking me to go to the giant games with– he had tickets to, to get to the Giant games in Yankee Stadium. But I had my mother at the time, she was in her 90s. And she had Alzheimer's. And it was real, it was just too much to leave with my wife for four hours to go to a Giant game. But after my mother died, we started doing the Giant games. And then when they came up with the, you know, $10,000, a seat and stuff like that– 

Seth Price  47:15

Stop going.

James Danaher 47:16

–we stopped going games and just watched it on TV. And we did that for almost 20 years. And he just died in March. And just the other day, I'm watching the game and I realized why I loved him so much. He was a nominal Jew, had one eye, he was a musician. He a businessman… But he was such a loving person. You know, I have loved people, but love them for what I could get. Oh, I love that woman. Why? Because well, I'm gonna you know.. And but Rich, just, he was just loving. I never evangelized him. I never told him, you know, the Sinner’s Prayer or anything like that. Because I know he, he was beyond that. And he was, he knew he was a rascal. He knew he wasn't a perfect person by any stretch of the imagination. But he's so easily loved. And I loved– What I learned from him, was how to just love somebody, just just be loving towards that person, you know. And the only thing I ever said to him about my work and I said, the gospel is: forgive everyone, judge no one, and love even your enemies. And his response was, “Well, who wouldn't believe that? Who wouldn’t believe that?” That's, that's the gospel. That's the gospel. And it doesn't matter what you profess. You know, the idea of you, if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, okay fine. But what do you do with the things that Jesus says that contradict that? You know, in the middle of the sermon, Jesus says, and if you don't forgive others their sins, God will not forgive you your sins. Really? How does that work in with your theology? You know, it's about being God's love to the world, and His mercy and forgiveness. And, yeah. And I think, what you profess to believe counts for very, very little because what we claim to believe, is usually bullshit. We say a whole bunch of things, and we say, Oh, I believe this, and I believe that. Okay, good. Talk to me next, and see what you believe. You know, my specialty is the history of philosophy. So I know, theories change over the course of time. Doctrines change and people go well, “I believe that–” Really? You know, that's a 19th century doctrine, right? Nobody believed that before the 19th century. You know.

Seth Price  49:55 

I do that with inerrancy often or with like the rapture, especially with the rapture when people that come into it to where I work and they know that theology is my thing. And I'll walk them through the history of the rapture, and they will go, “What's… everybody's always…” But I was like: No, no, my dear. No, everybody has not always. Actually, most of the time people have not any way believed that. But it's okay. If you're good with that. I'm good with that, I guess. Yeah.

James Danaher  50:26 

Yeah. I think the most important chapter in all of Scripture is the seventh chapter of Matthew, the end of the sermon, where Jesus says, Build your house upon the rock. And he tells you what the rock is. It's his words. And he says, Don't build your house on sand. And I think the sand of the doctrines, the doctrines that come and go, and they're very popular, and you believe in what everybody else believes, in the 13th century, or in the 17th century, or in the 21st century, but it doesn't count for anything. It's not something to build your life upon. Jesus' words are the things to build your life upon. That's the gospel. You know, when people say they tell us what the gospel is, that it has nothing to do with Jesus' words. Come on, you know, the great saints have always built their life upon Jesus' words. And that's, that's how the gospel is gonna continue to go forward in all of its different forms. 

Seth Price  51:25 

Yeah, I like that. Yeah. So this is the part that I don't think that you're going to answer just because you refuse to even advertise that you write books. So plug the places, Jim. Where do you want people to go to do stuff related to the work that you do? Where do, you where should they go to if they want to buy the book, which they should, if they if they, you know, like, where do you want people to do things?

James Danaher  51:45 

Yeah, my, well, my publisher is Paragon House. And they do have a great distributor of my books are at Walmart, and what's the other Target and Amazon and Amazon in the UK is going great. And Barnes & Noble, it's, it's all over. But it has to be something that, you know, I, my… I have a cousin that's about 15 years older than me. And she said, What, where are you going to promote your book? Can I come? No, I don't do that anymore. I did that when I taught. And now I've pretty much become a hermit. And I just love just hanging out with God all day. So I really don't promote it very much.

Seth Price  52:24 

I told you, so I didn't think you'd answer. Yeah, yeah, I tell you what, I will find all the links, I will put them in the show notes. I also transcribe these. So I'll put it in the transcript right about here, that word here. Just click that word here. And it'll take you to the places. So, Jim, I really appreciate our time this morning. I always enjoy talking with you. 

James Danaher  52:43 

Well that sounds great. Thank you so much. That was great. I loved it. I'll get another book out. And we'll do this again.

Seth Price  52:47 

We could do it without a book, too. It's fine. 

James Danaher 52:52

Okay. Tell me when to do it, I'm available.

Seth Price  53:10

Now, I haven't added it up. But there are hundreds of 1000s if not millions of podcasts on the internet, and I am humbled that you continue to download this one. If this is your first time here. Please know that there are transcripts of these shows. Not always in real time, but I do my best. And if you go back in the logs, you can find transcripts for pretty much any episode that you'd like. The show is recorded and edited by me, but it is produced by the patron supporters of the show. That is one of the best, if not the best way that you can support the show. If you get anything at all out of these episodes, if you think on them, or if you you know, you're out and about and you tell your friends about it or..hey, mom, dad, brother, sister, friend, boss, pastor, here's what I heard, what are your thoughts on that? If this is helping you in any way, and it is helping me, consider supporting the show in that manner. It is extremely inexpensive, but collectively, it is so very much helpful.

Now for you. I pray that you are blessed, and you know that you're cherished and beloved. We'll talk soon.