Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the audio

Seth Price 0:00

Yeah, yeah, how many um, just governmentally? How many breakdowns through customs? Does it require to smuggle the vampire back in from from the Middle East?

Kathy Khang 0:10

Holy cow.

JR. Forasteros 0:12

I'm guessing that he just went through Hobby Lobby is there apparently very good.

Kathy Khang 0:18

Lobby and others that museum out in Detroit is funded by Hobby Lobby. Yeah.

JR. Forasteros 0:26

Oh, you need to smuggle something from Middle East. Yeah, yeah.

Seth Price 0:43

How are we everybody? Welcome back to the show. I'm Seth. You are probably just as busy as I am. Right. I'm recording this quite literally just a few days before Thanksgiving. There's a lot going on. So, yeah. Welcome to the holidays, folks. You and I were in it together. I really thank you so very much for downloading the show. I know that you have a lot going on. And however you got here, I am so glad that you're here. I don't remember when. Exactly. I don't remember what I was reading or where I was reading it. I don't remember if it was a text message or a phone call. But someone that I trust. It must have been so told me, hey, there is a show on Netflix called Midnight Mass. And I think that you would like it. And I said, Well, what is it? And they said, Well, it's kind of this and it's kind of that and the horror word got thrown around. And here's what you need to know about me. Horror does not interest me at all. I have tried. Oh man, I've tried. Like I I haven't watched any of the classics, because I just I just don't like horror movies. It's not that I get scared. I really don't is that I get bored. And I don't find the stories all that compelling. I don't like them for the same reason that I don't like romantic comedies. I feel like I've seen it. And I feel like I've seen it. So all that to be said, I decided to give it a go. Because again, the nameless person that escapes me right now told me Hey, you would like this. They were not wrong. And so I went online and I said I want to talk about this with someone both Kathy and Jr. I think we're volunteered to come on. And so both Cathy and JR are back returning guests of the show to talk about midnight mass. It is important to realize and understand however that there is not a way to talk in detail for an hour about a show that exists today. Without some spoilers and so if for some reason you haven't watched the show, and you think you might or any other reason that you hate spoilers some people just hate them. You're gonna want to not listen to this one. If that's not you, or if you've seen the show, stick around. This was fun. Here we go both of us welcome back to the show. Not that that works out. Well. Yeah, super

Kathy Khang 3:16

fun.

Unknown 3:18

Thank you so much.

Seth Price 3:19

Yeah, no good yeah. So briefly, because I do want to talk about this Netflix show. But briefly, it's probably been so for for you Jr. It's probably been a year Kathy for you. It's it's probably been molt two or three years. I don't know, three years too many years. What's new for y'all? Whoever wants to go first, like what are the things that you would you would want people to go? Oh, yeah, here's some things that matter.

Kathy Khang 3:41

Um, I think since we last spoke, I left my vocational ministry job and have been hanging out doing all sorts of different things, writing on the side teaching yoga, managing the yoga studio, but taking a break from that space of evangelicalism and being like, rooted in that space. So yeah, that's that's probably the biggest thing that's changed. I think since we last talk.

Seth Price 4:17

Yeah, that's probably healthy. Yeah.

Kathy Khang 4:21

I probably should have done that a while ago.

Seth Price 4:25

JR, how about you?

JR. Forasteros 4:26

Yeah. So I've started writing for a couple of new outlets. I have had a couple of articles go up at Sojourners. One on Robin coming out as gay. Well as queer he didn't actually come out as anything specific, but I'm kind of what that means for comics and comic readers.

Seth Price 4:43

Oh, the DC character. I was like Robin Hood. Okay,

JR. Forasteros 4:46

I've been a Batman a understorey Gottschee forget that. Not everyone interprets everything through the lens of comics. You know, Robin? Yeah, sure. There's only the one sec there's like 50 You know, whatever anyway, and then the other one was they just decided to call it I'm a pastor and I love horror movies. Here's why. So it's sort of a, what what value horror has for spiritual formation,

Seth Price 5:10

which is, and that's and that's you you're writing that I'm reading. I'm the pastor who loves horror movies and that's also on sojourners

JR. Forasteros 5:17

on sojourners. And then I also had my first article, hopefully of many to go up@tor.com, which is a sci fi and fantasy publisher, actually on reading vampire stories through the lens of monster theory and how that applies to church abuse and purity culture.

Seth Price 5:35

Those are all words, that makes sense independently. I'll have to is that publish it? I'll have to read that. I also thought Tor was like the onion browser. So I'm, I'm a bit confused there. But

JR. Forasteros 5:44

no, Tor is a sci fi fantasy. Publisher. Like they're one of the they're kind of the OG like big fantasy. So what's writing there? Well, one of the things I love is that they're not a they're not a Christian platform. Right. They're readership. There are Christians who retort like me, but but there are a ton of people who are not Christians, or formerly Christian or whatever. So the conversations surrounding the article there and in that space have been really fun.

Seth Price 6:12

Yeah. Yeah. Huh. Is that That's and then can you link that? Can you send that I'd like to read? Yeah, absolutely.

JR. Forasteros 6:18

Yeah, no problem. Absolutely. Anything that you want.

Seth Price 6:21

I'd like I'd like to read it. It's, it's not stuff I normally read. And I'm all about that. And, you know, and this show as well, it's not shows that I normally watch, I think, with the last time we spoke to her, I said, I don't really watch her ever, because I can't turn like my analytical brain off where I'm like, Oh, I can see the gaffer microphone. That's too bad. You know,

JR. Forasteros 6:42

there's a way to trick your brain to where you, I think, for me, where I start analyzing the, like, the the sociological and cultural implications of the film. And so then I can, like, ignore all of that other stuff, because I have my, you know, I give that part of my brain to DOJ. And, you know, let it let it just go do its thing. Did you just see a chew toy? Yeah. You know, like your analytical brain you want to try so go. Pay attention to this, and let me enjoy this movie. Sometimes I get to write an article afterwards. Yes.

Seth Price 7:13

That's hilarious. So I realized I didn't ask this in an email. Are we gonna talk about this show with or without spoilers?

JR. Forasteros 7:21

Oh, I figured with

Seth Price 7:23

Yes. Great. Okay. So if you're still listening, and you haven't watched the show Midnight Mass on Netflix, or you haven't borrowed your friend's password to watch it? You've been warned?

Kathy Khang 7:33

Yes. Get with it. It's been out for a while now.

Seth Price 7:36

Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. Also, also the Giants lost the game on Sunday. So another spoiler and yeah, and for context, the Braves just beat the Astros. So yay, spoiled all the things for you. I've run I've run into that for the day. So

Kathy Khang 7:53

it was funny. At some point this week, Peter, and I look, my husband and I looked at each other and we're like, is there baseball still happening?

JR. Forasteros 8:01

I did the same thing. I used to be such a fan of matches. Yeah,

Seth Price 8:05

I like playing it. I like watching the kids play it. I'm not in it for 216 games, or whatever it is. I'm just, I'm not in it.

Kathy Khang 8:12

We are only if our team is in it. But our team was

Seth Price 8:17

my team's arrangers. So they haven't been in it since like the 90s Nolan Ryan, When did he leave? That's how long it's been since they've been. So

JR. Forasteros 8:25

Kathy, are you Cubs or Sox? I don't think I know this. You know, my wife's a Cardinals. So.

Seth Price 8:35

Anyway, fair enough. So Midnight Mass on Netflix. Um, so I couldn't come up with a better conversate your question to begin the conversation then. What is this show actually about?

JR. Forasteros 8:53

Like, like in the capital discourse, or do you want to plot summary?

Seth Price 8:56

Hey, you can take it wherever you are. I intentionally left it vague, because I have I have a shortlist of like seven things that I think it's about and I'm not sure which one of those is true. Maybe all of them. I don't know. What do you think this show is actually about?

Kathy Khang 9:14

I think it's, well, it's about religion. It's about groupthink. It's, you know the the power of groupthink and the power of shame. In a community that doesn't want to talk about its secrets, which sounds a lot like some families and some religious traditions and even maybe some countries don't want to talk about their secrets or not so secret secrets. Anyway. What do you think chair?

JR. Forasteros 9:56

Yeah, I mean, obviously, the way it talks about religion is really interesting, and the desire that a lot of people have for religion to be a cure all. And a religion is a place to hide from reality. And also Magga, you know, I mean, there was this very clear, like, make the island degrade again, strain that was being wrapped up in religious language. And that was, in many ways a it was, it was in many ways, I felt the real reason people were engaging in the religion so much, you know, you had to have the core folk at the beginning of the show who are already a part of the community. But then once things start getting better, quote, unquote, that's when everyone else shows up. And, and it was very much part of that, like, the best days are ahead of us, we can get back to the, you know, get back to the good old days kind of make the island great again, rhetoric. That was then again, wrapped up and resurrection and everything. It was also about belief, right? It was about the uncertainty of religion. Yeah, I don't know. How many of the seven did we check off?

Seth Price 11:16

A few? Um, so no, I found it. So for me, it was a lot about innocence. Because I like the way that the children are used in the show. I can't remember everyone's name, but there's young lady in the wheelchair. And I really enjoy Ali as as an innocent archetype of somebody trying to find something in his own. That isn't his parents. You know, in arguing with his dad, who I can't remember his dad's name at the time. It's calling the sheriff is fine. Yeah. I also like it's a show about for me about literally proof texting everything. And I also find it weird that it's a show about I think faith is a whole building beautiful structures for our community that sit unused and vacant every day after they've been built. Thinking about that Community Center Community Center. Yeah, literally look at this building we built for you. With arguably embezzled money. It seems right and, and you should love coming to it.

Kathy Khang 12:21

Right? Even though there's nothing offered. Well, there's

Seth Price 12:24

nice walls, and I really liked the chair storage on the back, it was a different way to store chairs. And what I've seen in the church was very nice chair storage.

Kathy Khang 12:32

So much potential so much potential.

Seth Price 12:36

So why so who was the actual villain in the show? Like, I don't actually blame. I don't want to call it we'll call him the angel vampire. I don't know what you want to call him. Because who cares? I don't actually think that he's a villain at all. Because they seem to be just acting on a primal rage in the same way that my dog wants to treats. So who is the actual villain of the series?

JR. Forasteros 13:02

It's interesting that you say say it that way. Because I read I you know, I did read the vampire as a as a monster. You know. I think it was walled up in that tomb for a reason. But I mean, yeah, yeah, it's pretty easy to point at Bev as as the big villain, but I think Father Paul is a villain too. What about you, Kathy?

Kathy Khang 13:29

Well, you know, even the the angel vampire character. I, sometimes I think, Oh, well, we we separate wall and are fearful of things we don't understand. And so that, that for me as somebody who often is connected with countries or country, which is actually not my country of origin, but countries we don't understand or are feel fearful of people we don't understand or are fearful of and are blamed for things. I think that to me, is one of those like, is the vampire a villain? Or is it something we just don't understand? And villainize conveniently, and then take advantage of when it's convenient for us, which is what was happening in that arc of the story. That the power of becoming a vampire does things that blood does things that serves a purpose that was convenient at the time, but you can't control that because you don't understand it. And so I think for me, the the villain is more kind of the underlying fear that people are operating out of constantly in that space of and not addressing the fear. So I'm not saying that fear it's Self is the villain and a bad thing, but that nobody ever talks about what's going on. So even the young lady who was paralyzed from shooting incident leads, you know, you you find out later all that she's been holding, right and she has that confrontation. Oh my god. But she's been holding that in for so long. And there's no space, even in this idyllic Island and parents who are supportive. She's not had that opportunity to say and speak her mind. So, for me, that seems that is the underlying kind of villain. That's what, that's what Bev operates out of. And that's what all of the characters are operating out of. And then that becomes really selfish, because you're not talking about the things that maybe somebody else is going through. And so you find a solution for your fear without thinking about the impact on others. Like, you know, keeping stores of rat poison, may or may not have bad consequences for other people.

Seth Price 16:15

Yeah. Yeah. So

JR. Forasteros 16:18

I want to apply that logic, though. Because if we can say, I mean, I feel like you could say what you said about the vampire, oh, here's one we don't understand or No, to bed and do the same thing. Like for me, the vampire was a monster because it was controlling Father Paul to bring death. You know, and I think it was intentional on Flanagan's part, that we don't know anything. We don't know where it came from. We don't know how old it is. We don't actually even know what happens to it at the end. I read it as the vampire sort of represented like the problem of evil. Like, it's, it's, yeah, it's there. And we wish we knew more about it, but we never will. Let's type into your point. Let's talk more instead about how we interact with that, like mysterious reality of evil show. I mean, it's tearing people's throats out. It's, it's incur I very much read it as it was directing Father Paul. I don't know how y'all read it, but like it very much seemed like he was doing this creatures bidding to some degree or another. So I don't know. I mean, I hear what y'all say about like, you know, maybe it's just a misunderstood, whatever. But I don't know. Maybe it's also because I watched enough horror movies that I'm like, vampire equals scary. Yeah.

Kathy Khang 17:39

Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. And it was creepy as heck. And the whole cave thing was kind of cool. But But you knew something was up at the beginning, right? With all the cats. And no blood. It was kind of weird. And that's fine, because I'm not a big. Oh, I don't know.

Seth Price 17:58

No, no, I agree. I agree. I have I can't breathe around cats. I am on record on multiple episodes of the show that that anything related to a feline should not exist, and I'm aware that that also includes lions, tigers, and that's an over exaggeration, but yeah, absolutely not. I am. I'm 100% A dog brush. There's bears? I don't know if I'm allergic to or not. I don't know. I don't know. Um, so you said Rat poison again. I want to actually go back to this first year. I still don't blame that monster. For doing what monsters do. Like I just as I don't blame a dog for going after the cheek flesh after their homeowner has died. It's just I feel like it's just acting at a base instinct. Sorry, Kathy. I'm not that it's not. I don't know. I don't know. Um,

JR. Forasteros 18:54

so it's, it's, it's you're reading the vampire is less than, you

Seth Price 18:59

know? No. I'm reading it as it's doing what it does.

JR. Forasteros 19:06

So what's the difference between it and Bev?

Seth Price 19:09

Bev seems to be manipulating fear with a massive amount of scriptural knowledge to justify even at sometimes taking away guilt from Monsignor Pruitt at what he's doing. Like there's a massive murder scene where he basically is like, oh, shoot his head. I don't want to eat this blood. But man, that looks good. And then he sits there all night and gorgeous. And she's like, it's okay. Because it says this, and it says this, and then it's and I can't remember all the stuff that she quotes. You know, she seems to be honestly acting more as a really manipulative preacher than the priest seems to act like giving people license to do things that they genuinely feel guilty about. Versus like the vampire is a vampire. Like I don't blame a vampire for being a vampire.

JR. Forasteros 19:59

I guess That's what I'm saying, though is like, isn't like we, I feel like we could make the same argument about that. We could say, you know, if we went back and looked at how she was raised and the situations in her life, we would get to the place where we're like, yeah, she's evil and manipulative, but like, evil, manipulative, people are gonna do what they do. And that's, you

Seth Price 20:15

know, she would have been trained by Monsignor Pruitt, apparently. So there's that. Yeah.

Kathy Khang 20:19

Right. And it goes back to theology. Right? Do you believe that you are born inherently sinful? Even if you're a baby, and you've not done anything except cry? The moment you're out of the womb? Absolutely. Not. And right, then, then who and what Bev is, is completely understandable. And yet it's still horrible. Right? And so I think the the ability to hold those things intention forces us to think about what we say we believe, and then how that actually plays out in TV, on Netflix or in real life, right? Because I, you know, thankfully, I don't think I know anyone as extreme as Bev. But I do know people like Beth, right, who have a different line and figure murder is really, really bad. So they wouldn't do that, but come up to that line as close as they can. And, and we've seen that over and over again, in religion, where a religious leader takes advantage and proof texts and makes people think a little bit by little bit what they're doing, even though maybe their gut says maybe we shouldn't, maybe we shouldn't use rat poison. makes us think, oh, maybe this is okay. for the greater good. for the greater good. Yeah, whatever good. That means, you know, America, America.

JR. Forasteros 21:55

You know, I think I think very tellingly here, you go back and look at the character of Riley. And what happens to him when he receives this gift. I'm using scare quotes for the listeners, the gift of the power the vampiric power. He he and I love that it's in the the episode titled gospel, you know, he kills himself rather than rather than take any one, you know, kill anyone. And I think that matters. I think when you look at what, what Monsignor Pruitt does, what Beth does, specifically, you know, when when they have power or are have access to power. And then you look at Reilly like, I think you do see a clear difference, you know, and, and I guess for me, that's why I keep I keep going back to standing on like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold on to the vampire, as as one of the monsters in the show, because I think, I think we do see intention and, and, you know, mind behind it, and I think we I think Riley proves, and we're, I know, we're going to talk about the ending in a minute. But they do make this comment in the last episode that it doesn't change who you are, it reveals who you are. And I think we see that very much with Riley. And he is proof for us that Monsignor doesn't have to be doing any of the things that he's doing. Right? That none of the that all of these people who turn and then immediately start killing someone don't have to be doing that if they don't want to, you know. And that's what that's for me. That's what makes Beva villain, right? Is her calculation. She decides you can even see it in her eyes. Yeah. And you were talking about Seth? Right? She decides to start manipulating this. Yeah, she has, she has a chance now to say, Okay, do I accept the truth that all of the good that has been happening is actually rooted in this monster? Or do I slap a Bible verse on it and keep the light going? And she chooses the second, you know? Yeah. And again, to your point, Kathy, I think I think when you're in a church system, that values success, and prosperity and attendance, and all of the, you know, markers that we usually use for success. It is so easy when there are these small things, red flags, you know, which which aren't actionable items by nature, if they were they wouldn't be flags, they'd be the thing you know, flags, they're just little warning signs. When when things are going well, and by going well, we don't mean are becoming more holy, we mean are becoming more successful. It's easy to make those small compromises and then once you've made one small compromise, it's easier to make two and once you've made 203 And then it's easier to make a bigger compromise and a bigger compromise. And before you know it, we've got these insane

Seth Price 25:06

endowment funds or scandals. Yeah,

JR. Forasteros 25:09

right. Yeah. Yeah. All the stuff, all the stuff that we hear about, right that and you wonder like, did these people you almost have to wonder like, did these people like, were they crooked from the start and decided to get into ministry? Because Christians are suckers? Well, maybe maybe there's a few of those folks. But I think most of us would say no, probably most of the time it's well meaning people who started heavy Did either of you watch the Tammy Faye movie that just came out with a screen shot yet? You know, I was I was not really paying attention when when all of that blew up in the world. But the way they paint Jim Baker in that movie is very much this other this kind of guy, right? He Yeah, he did embezzle. And he did. You know, there were all kinds of scandal.

Seth Price 25:54

Why this kind of guy you mean above kind of guy, or a monster, you're pro kind of guy, what kind of guy more of

JR. Forasteros 26:00

a Monsignor Pruitt kind of guy where he started out. He started out with very good intentions, and arguably continued to have those good intentions. But because he made compromise, one compromise after another, he got to this place, where if he told the truth, it would all come crumbling down. And he was able to point at I mean, actually, let's go back to that terrible martial podcast that just ended. He was able to point to all of the good against yes, that happened to say, see, like, yes, what I'm doing is bad. But no one knows about it. And this small bad is allowing this greater good. So it's okay. It's okay enough to keep going. Right. I don't think I don't think he would have said it's okay. Then you would have said like, it's okay, enough, you know, it's the ends justify the means. Yeah, right.

Seth Price 26:49

That podcasts you

Kathy Khang 26:50

get go for Kenny? Well, and I was gonna say that's where you get that scene in the show where they're all in the church. Right? There have been so many compromises so many lies, that the only way to fix this is to have a whole island of empires. Like, there's no turning back. And so you're either gonna fess up, but that would require humility. That would require honesty really facing

JR. Forasteros 27:23

the monster that right right. Yes.

Kathy Khang 27:25

Yes. Which, which again, at that point, they could say it's, it's the angel slash vampire, but the reality is they are the monsters right? Bev is the monster Monsignor is the monster. And it's easier not to do that. Let's just make everybody monsters so that we don't have to deal with the reality. So

Seth Price 27:46

yeah, and intentionally because the doors are locked. So you're not going to leave until you're either chattel or food or whatever the word is for that like I forget what you what do you feed that like pigs? The slop what's the word? So yeah, yeah, you're either gonna convert or you'll be consumed and become the fuel for those that have been converted. So I appreciate your volunteering for that. Yeah, that that podcast that you're referencing, Jr. It does when some form of an award I think for me for the way that it uses that intro music mixed in with, with Mark yelling at people with the Kings Kaleidoscope song, it is very cleverly done. I agree. The show has many issues, but at least that little intro music theme that is so well done. They nailed it. So if that's all you listen to and then just hit pause, why do what what purpose? I have two questions. What purpose does this story happening around lint serve? I've tried to give more thought to that I understand the Easter aspects of it, especially as he's working through all of the different liturgies that he's doing each week in church, but I don't know why lint matters so much for the beginning of the show. Though I do like that Riley still takes the ashes because it's like yeah, whatever. I can get behind this theoretically scientifically. Yeah, I'm dust. I can get behind that. And then Why kill? I think it's Joe. Why kill his dog? Like, is that just malice? Like, what is that a test for the point like, what is this? Why kill a dog? Because I am not a cat person. But I am a dog person and that poor dog.

JR. Forasteros 29:19

I like that. You know, killing killing the beloved animal is always is always the first thing that happens in a horror show. Oh, in the beats of horror, there's a moment and the cats I think we're serving a similar kind of thing. It's an omen, right? It's a warning. It's saying hey, something's wrong here. And I'm here this is horrible. But it's true. You can kill a human as long as they're an adult in a show. And people are like, Oh man, that's like, pretty messed up. You kill a dog and people are like, this is the worst Yeah, like, there's something about. There's something about pets, and specifically, I think dogs, one dog is worth all of the cats on the island. So there's something about that in the beats of horror that I think that's kind of that's kind of how that goes. But yeah, I don't know, Kathy, I don't know if you had any thoughts about that.

Kathy Khang 30:23

Yeah, no, I think it's an observation I've made as one who does not have a furry pet we do have two geckos. Very different experience is that one, folks I know who love their pets are wonderful human beings. But also we'll talk about kind of this unconditional love that they get from their pets that they don't get from the humans around until you die. Until you're right. And then after you're after you're

Seth Price 30:55

dead. That's actually that's true. I didn't make that up. I have a client that literally Yeah, that's that's the thing. The cheek in the nose me is the tastiest, apparently,

Kathy Khang 31:04

after you're dead. So but so there is something about that. And then you've seen that shift over the decades, where it's not just like pet food. It's like pet costumes, and pet insurance. And right. So I do think and it's not just pets, although that's, I think, a very western easy signal of like, things are bad. But its nature, right. So the Harbinger, the warning should be things happening in nature signals to us humans who think of the world and the earth as something that we can pillage for ourselves. It's the signal that says you're doing something wrong. And that's going to impact you if you don't pay attention. So then you have a whole beach of dead cats, with no blood, and the instinct is all just put them in a pile and burn it and don't let anybody know. That's fine. That's fine.

JR. Forasteros 32:06

Well, yeah. And to Kathy's point, right, like, it's often the case in horror fiction, that animals have a more immediate sense that something's wrong. Maybe and this this would circle back to your last question. Maybe because animals lie to themselves less, right? Like they understand that we're all just sacks of meat. And so once once someone's dead you can you know, eat their nose, and it's fine.

Seth Price 32:30

sacks of meat. Yeah. In water episode titled sacks of meat, ellipses, and water.

JR. Forasteros 32:42

But yeah, so So there's, there's also a thing where the monster will often eliminate the animal first, because the animal is often the first one that will point to sit to saying something's wrong. You know, where's again, we're a lot better about lying to ourselves. So yeah, why land because land is the season if confession and repentance and the show was all about doing anything and everything except confessing and repenting, you know? Yeah, at every turn. I mean, if it starts, Father Paul shows up lying to the congregation. Right, right. Right. Like,

Seth Price 33:14

he's just off Island. Yeah.

JR. Forasteros 33:17

Right. And we have that scene in episode three, where we find out that he's a vampire. And that he's actually Monsignor Pruitt. We find we, but where he's confessing, right, but the whole thing starts in lies. And so literally, the whole the whole journey that he's inviting the congregation and by extension, the island on is one that is a lie. And it's it is a myth of I want to be careful here because Because we'll get into some territory where I disagree with Mike Flanagan, but he grounds he grounds their hope and a false resurrection. Right? One that one that rather than providing life is only going to literally burn the island to the ground.

Kathy Khang 34:04

Right, and, and perpetuate a cycle of death in order to survive. Right. And, and that's the thing. It's a confession. It's the from ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Well, if you're a vampire, apparently no. No, that is

JR. Forasteros 34:22

the thing, right? vampires. Vampires have eternal life, but it's a it is a different, right. So they're, they're not zombies, right? They're not reanimated corpses, but they're also not angels, or whatever we will be on the other side of the resurrection. Right? They're this. They're this perversion of Christ's gift of eternal life. Yes. And yeah, so what happens when you willingly decide not to notice the difference between those two things?

Seth Price 34:52

Yeah. Yeah, how many? Um, just governmentally? How many breakdowns through customs? Does it require to smuggle The Vampire back in from from the Middle East. Holy cow.

JR. Forasteros 35:05

I'm guessing that he just went to Hobby Lobby because they're apparently very good

Kathy Khang 35:11

lobby and others that museum out in Detroit is funded

JR. Forasteros 35:15

by Hobby Lobby. Yeah. So they're like, Oh, you need to smuggle something to Middle East. Yeah, yeah.

Kathy Khang 35:22

It's going to the museum

Seth Price 35:24

did um, Did either of you laugh out I pause the show and laughed out loud at there's a line in there. And I can't remember who said it. I feel like it's Bev it could have been Riley's mom. That is welcoming mon Senor, or Father Paul, back to the to the pot or the crock or the crock pot or whatever it's called the potluck. And they say something of we're glad to add you to the flavor here. And knowing that it was like I literally like that is yes. And then they say something about like, yeah, we'll just add you right into the stew. I was like, well done. So I literally pause it and laughed. Yes. loved every minute of that.

Kathy Khang 35:57

A little campy humor is always really good before the blood and gore.

Seth Price 36:03

Is it weird that I like Father Paul, because he appears to engage more than most pastors that I know, in really hard questions by not giving a It's okay. Just lean on God. Like he literally leans into people. It's like, yeah, there's a lot of beliefs there. Like, it does suck. Let me tell you about what I've learned. Is it weird that I like that of him?

Kathy Khang 36:22

No, I don't think it's weird. Right? Because it's what we want. Yeah, except the vampire part.

JR. Forasteros 36:31

Right. And it makes me wonder what kind of Pastor he was before his dementia Senate. It's difficult for me to believe that Bev would have stayed in his church based on personal experience as a pastor. Yeah. He should have shouldn't have any other option on the proc but um yeah. Kathy, I think you were the one that said like apparently you know, Paul pastored Bev into the person that she is right or at least had a big hand in it. So that that that is part of my question is Was he always this guy? It doesn't seem like it. Katie isn't that the the pregnant woman's name

Seth Price 37:15

Aaron Aaron.

JR. Forasteros 37:17

That react I think the I think are the actresses name Katie. Anyway, yeah, it doesn't it doesn't seem like it seems like he is a breath of fresh air to the island. And so that made me wonder like where was all of this? Very honestly very excellent. pastoring up until he's drinking their blood. Yeah. Until I never I didn't I don't have a seminary degree. But my understanding is in seminary one to one they say don't drink your parishioners blood like that's one of the well like first things you like

Kathy Khang 37:49

probably a prerequisite class is I hope I hope

Seth Price 37:54

it's it's this will be very sarcastic it's it's a new Transubstantiation ism. It's just a way to practice differently. Very, I made everybody mad. I made everybody this the

JR. Forasteros 38:04

Emergent Church. No, but I wonder where like it because again, Seth, I think you're right. Like when you're watching him, Pastor people. You're like, Man, this is amazing. And I wish I had a pastor like that. And it's so great. You're like, okay, so he does seem people aren't like, Oh, he's just like Father Paul. Yeah, right now they're like, it seems different. So I did wonder if that was just something Mike Flanagan was sort of like hoping we would get past another

Seth Price 38:30

thing I wonder about is so he is aware that Aaron is his daughter? And he also seems the doctor You're right. No, no, I think Aaron is yes. The daughter Aaron's the daughter. Yeah. Oh, no, no, you're right. The doctor is the daughter

JR. Forasteros 38:51

is a lesbian who is caring for aging mother.

Seth Price 38:53

Yes. Yes. Okay, so there's a there's a thing that says he's coming back to save his mistress because he knows that she's not in good in a good spot, which I'm fine with that. But I misspoke. You're right. Aaron's not the daughter. But that doesn't change my question. So it appears as though once you have this site, you can literally see blood coursing in different ways through human anatomy. So I keep wondering whether or not he knew that she was pregnant and then also then knows, oh, she's not pregnant anymore. And somehow it's fine with that. But I just continue to wrestle with that. Just because it appears as though in the scenes afterwards that you're like, yeah, it seems like he would have seen that little heartbeat course. Or at least heard it or sensed it that there's too much volume of blood here. Yeah, everyone knew she was pregnant. Yeah, so that is there's part of me that wonders why there's a whole would be Oh, fine fine, knowing that she's no longer pregnant anymore and just not talking about it. Um, but anyway, that's

JR. Forasteros 39:49

that's all part of it. Part of him lying to himself. Yeah. Yeah, right. Like he has to be okay with everything that's happening. You know, and errands errands pregnancy and And then the way her body consumes the baby is I think one of the. For me, it was one of the most powerful illustrations of how the vampire and father Paul's ministry were fundamentally anti Christ. Because Jesus's life is meant to be generative and life giving. And Father Paul, what Father Paul brings to the island is fundamentally parasitic. Right, so, so again, you made the Transubstantiation jokes. That's right. But that's the whole thing, right? Like Jesus gives us his body and blood to consume. Yeah, the vampire consumed by others.

Kathy Khang 40:41

It's not the other way around.

JR. Forasteros 40:43

It is literally anti it is the definition of antichrist.

Seth Price 40:46

Thank you for saving that for me so that I wasn't branded as an additional heretic. I appreciate you.

JR. Forasteros 40:50

I knew I knew that some of your listeners are hanging on by.

Seth Price 40:54

All right. Well, hey, again. I feel like they know me they're not hanging on by a thread because I highly I highly try to filter myself on what I say publicly, but privately been enough weeks. You know what that sound means? 1530 seconds tops. I'm going to be back in just a second. Who has the better answer for what happens when we die? Riley or Aaron?

JR. Forasteros 41:17

Can I just roll my eyes back in the back of my head? Yeah,

Seth Price 41:19

sure. Why you don't like the question?

JR. Forasteros 41:23

No, no, no, I think it's a great question. i

Seth Price 41:27

Are you trying to remember what they say?

JR. Forasteros 41:29

No, no, I?

Kathy Khang 41:31

I said a lot. Aaron said too much, actually.

JR. Forasteros 41:37

Yeah. Um, no, I mean, I, I don't know. I enjoy the shows attempt to appeal to mystery. I don't know that it exactly worked. For me. It felt like it felt like the ending of the good place in a lot of ways for me, which, which also felt a little bit like a cop out. I also guess I don't I don't spend a lot of anxiety worried about what's going to happen after we die either. I think I think I've reached a place where I'm fine with it being mysterious and a place for faith. And so I enjoy discussing academically. Yeah, I don't know. Kathy, did you have any strong?

Kathy Khang 42:20

No, I just think about okay, so when I had strong feelings about Aaron talking so much at the end, about death, it was it like, after about 10 seconds. I was like, if you stopped now, it would be good. Yeah, but it kept going. And in that I felt a little bit like, Oh, this is what I grew up with, which is trying to explain the thing that nobody can explain. Or you you can't, we don't die. And then at least in the tradition that I was raised, come back and talk to people. Unless that happens in Scripture, right? So in reality, we're told you can't believe in spirits of your ancestors, only the Holy Spirit. And yet, we're saying that we are resurrected. So Aaron talking bothered me, because it felt like this fear and trying to explain something that we don't know, and it should be okay, that we don't know, what I appreciated about what's his name, I am so bad with character named Riley, Riley, you know, choosing and, and, and in some ways this. It looks terribly painful, but also peaceful, if that makes sense. And, and I've been thinking a lot about death lately, as we finally did our Estate Planning and made sure our kids sign papers so that if they are hospitalized, we can get the information as parents because they're all adults. They're all you know, 18 and older, is this sense of Western approach to death is out of fear. It's very fearful. It's very, like, are we going to keep ourselves alive? Or are we going to allow somebody to have the power to pull the plug, and they're hand wringing around that and I felt like Riley's approach, though, the idea of burning to death does not appeal this sense of like, I know, this is, this is the way this is the only way. And so in that respect, I feel like from the, from the Christian tradition that I was raised taught me to fear death, even though at the end is supposed to be like all rainbows and wings. The reality is more along the lines of like, this is what happens. Let's just make the best of it. And And what a way to go.

Seth Price 45:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well to lean into that I prefer Riley's answers. So the scene that I'm talking about is when they're on the couch, which I don't think is actually in the last episode is maybe like Episode Four or something.

JR. Forasteros 45:11

They Well, they do a flashback and Aaron gives a different answer. Okay. Yeah, but they flashback to that Carson. Yeah,

Seth Price 45:19

yeah, so no, Riley's answer is for me the one because I just, maybe it's the five and me, I just love the way that he is describing the process of death like, like literally, he says, maybe my brain releases a flood of DMT, which is a psychedelic drug released when we dream. But I dream bigger than I've ever dreamed. Because it's just one big last dump of DMT my neurons are firing, I'm seeing a firework display of memories and imagination. And we just empty the F and missile silos and then I just stopped and then he goes on to talk about you know, as I'm broken apart, I'm feeding life and my Adam's become the plants and I'm just part of the freakin cosmos. And I for some reason, I like that. Give it to what you said earlier, Jr. So I've ever since I watched it. So it's been a few years. I'm perfectly fine with wherever I was before I existed. And I'm pretty sure I'm going to be perfectly fine with wherever I'm going after I consciously exist here. And I'm not entirely certain that it's the churches business where I'm going, it's more about what I'm actually doing, and building and partnering and etc. But that's not necessarily Midnight Mass. But um, but yeah, anyway,

Kathy Khang 46:25

well, and and that's not actually how we die. Right? Or that's not how we treat death. Presently, we are embalmed with chemicals, were put in caskets that have metal in them in concrete, right. So we actually in that don't allow one another to die and feed the earth. And all of those things. Again, it goes back to that sense of fear that drives people into perpetuating lies about how you can live so that you can get to the other side. Yeah.

JR. Forasteros 47:00

Yeah, yeah, it's funny, I have a, I have a good friend who her father's passing created a pretty significant crisis of faith for her because of her evangelical belief in the resurrection of the body, and her recognition that so let me back up and circle back and come back to it. I think the mummification or the preservation of the body was a thing that made sense for people in death rituals, when the population of the earth was you know, under a million people. And when you're losing, you know, two or three people a year max in your community. And there's a very you know, there's a very small manageable kind of cemetery graveyard space. And the question of, you know, we didn't we didn't really understand matter, and Adams and all that kind of stuff. But what happened for my friend when her father died was she sort of had the scientific realization that there's there aren't enough like atoms in the world for everyone to be resurrected bodily and there still be a world and the reality that the atoms literally the literal atoms that made up that comprise your father's body had at some point been part of other people's bodies in history. And so to raise his body that necessarily meant in a closed universe not raising someone else's body. And then what are the implications of that one says atoms go on to someone you know, so it's, it's it's really working through like the science of death and decay. And and coming to this like, if if there is a physical resurrection in any meaningful sense, it can't look anything like what we understand. No, it's our you know, in our current universe, and that just that created a massive disruption.

Seth Price 48:59

Yeah, for her. Yeah, not to be more McCobb but I've told my wife how I want in tongue in cheek but if she does it, I will love her so much more. I told her to have me cremated and then have me packaged up in one of those massive illegal fireworks set me off on our anniversary and explode in the sky so I can go out with a bang and it's probably the dad joke at the end that nailed it for her is this not going to happen? But yeah, I said it is tongue in cheek and she and we talked about it after my if we buried my father last year it's tongue in cheek but anyway

Kathy Khang 49:33

but it's it's real right and even even in the final episode, all the the fire and the explosions and how Riley chooses you know his death he goes out on a rowboat or new I don't know what vessel it was but out onto the sea and because he's exposed to the sun just burns up again that that doesn't. That's not the norm here in the US and yet That's all built around this fear of what happens to our bodies, our physical bodies after we die. And my parents and I we have talked a lot about that and they've come to a place where they're like yeah, we we would like we're gonna we want the funeral thing we want the whole week thing and for you to cry and feel really really bad. And then we want to be cremated so that it's less space and it doesn't do all that and I want to become pencils. Listeners, thank yous Yes, it's a thing and then Peter wants to be pressed into record. Vinyl, and my Mom What's the song? Yes, I don't think he's just determined a song yet. He's got some time. And then my mom has said that she wants to be pressed into like diamonds and that my sister and I could wear her on our hearts.

Seth Price 50:53

I would go with Comfortably Numb on vinyl that feels like lewdly it's a great way to die become comfortably numb.

JR. Forasteros 51:02

I was hoping if it goes first Kathy would have it be my boyfriend's back so she

Seth Price 51:12

so the final episode which I want to talk about that because Jr has been on record on the social medias as well as earlier before you got here, Kathy that he doesn't like it. But I would like to say that that sing were Riley commit suicide, arguably, although I guess he's technically already dead is broken because it's a wooden rowboat, and he is burning very hot and nothing else burns except for him. So that's a broken scene. But for me, that scene is one motivated out of fear. Because he either doesn't trust himself to eat other people, or he doesn't trust himself to not eat her after he tells her the truth. And so he set up the situation in such a way that at least he's ending that circle of, of reciprocity, even if he does end up, you know, consuming her or turning her into whatever she's turning into. You know, because there's so far out that even if she gets converted, she's gonna come back up from water and get burned immediately and then go back under. But maybe that's just my, you know, pessimistic. pessimistic interpretation of I see what you did, and that's kind of nice, but you also set it up in such a way that even if you failed, you succeeded and that's not really a win. That's that's a cop out.

Kathy Khang 52:16

That's kind of cheating.

Seth Price 52:16

Yeah, it's kind of a cop out. It's,

JR. Forasteros 52:18

it's it's Kirk. It's Kurt beating the Kobayashi Maru. Right. It's Yes. Kobayashi Maru. Yeah,

Seth Price 52:24

just Yeah. Yeah. So why do you why do you hate happy endings, Jr. It's not a happy ending.

JR. Forasteros 52:35

Okay, so this actually goes back to some of my some of the reason I didn't care for either Aaron or Riley's read of what happens after we die. So, and again, for people who haven't watched the show, and I know there are a lot of you that you know, like horror, and so you just like to listen to things like this. I don't know

Seth Price 52:53

that it's horror.

JR. Forasteros 52:55

Well, it's definitely not but you know, there's a vampire in it. Okay. There was that Vox article that went around that people hated on but I actually agreed with largely that said that Mike Flanagan doesn't make horror. And I kind of agree with them. But here's the thing if you haven't watched it, folks, people are wondering like, oh, like is all this religion stuff like actually intentional, like, well, one yet the main character is priest. For two like the episodes are named Genesis, Psalms, Proverbs, Gospels, acts of the apostle, you know, yeah, it's really intentional. The last episode is called Revelation, after the book of the Bible revelation, which I have a whole different rant about that where people like, well, I just don't know if anyone knows how to read. We do know how to read it. Actually, the church has been reading it for 2000 years. Just because timothy hay got in there and jacked everything up for people doesn't mean that the majority of the church doesn't know how to read it. It's fine. It's hard no, they

Seth Price 53:51

don't quote revelation at all in that chapter. It's all it's a great point. It's all Genesis and Matthew, but

JR. Forasteros 53:57

but there's so much like, it's it's so clear, like even with with Father Paul being the beast in Revelation with bed being the false prophet, and even I would argue that the vampire being the Satan character, who's empowering the beast I mean, there's there's so much eat the burning of the ships, like that's straight out of revelation like there's so much but I think, I think, I think Flanagan in in his drive to tell a deeply personal story, missed the I have, for lack of a better way to say it off top my head like he missed the social implications of the New Testament and arguably of the Christian or the Christian canon. Revelation is not a story about the end of the world. Revelation is a story about how the world can be how God can be said to be just when the world is so obviously unjust And I mean, I thought like when I'm sitting there listening to Riley and Erin, talk about their ideas of what happens after you die. Like, I just kept rolling my eyes because I was like, Yeah, neither of you has really suffered in this life. Particularly not at someone else's hands. You know, Aaron was what? Okay, I shouldn't say that Aaron was in an abusive relationship, and that she got out of, you know, Riley has this whole trauma with the girl that he killed and keep seeing her. But again, that was his choice, right? He was an alcoholic. But they're both white. You know, they both come from what seemed to be at least middle class backgrounds.

Seth Price 55:41

Before the spill, you know? Yeah.

JR. Forasteros 55:44

Yeah. Both of them, like, seem like they've ended up back in the crock pot, because they don't have any choice. But their lack of choice means they still have a roof over their head and three square meals and employment and, you know, all this kind of stuff like they're, they're like, nowhere else to go looks a lot different from a lot of people's nowhere else to go. They're not on government assistance. They're not living in an oppressive, tyrannical, you know, system. And, and the book of Revelation is that that's what the book of Revelation is about it is this big, sweeping, like, social book about how God brings justice. And what that looks like for people who are living on just lives, you know, and what it looks like for people who are marginalized. And I just felt like that was completely missing, which again, people have been like, well, that's not the story of my playing. I was telling, I like, Oh, I know, but then let's call it what it is, right? Like he's co opting a story about one thing, to serve a story about something else. And like, it's okay for us to criticize that, like, Revelation is not a book that's trying to make us feel good about what happens after we die. That's, that's not and if you take, if you take that from it, that's fine. You know, sheets of gold are, are nice and whatever. But it's really about it's really about justice. It's really about what God's reign on earth as it is habitus is gonna look, it's gonna look like and it's about hope for marginalized people. And so turning it into, we all stand in a circle and sing a hymn ified Kumbaya. I just I was like, rolling my eyes so hard. And like, really, after all of the careful good work you did in this whole show, this is what you're leaving us with? Is this like saccharin. sappy. And again, to me, it was it was just more it was it was even at the end, they can't face the bed is that is the only one who does. And she acts out the scene when the fifth seal in Revelation is broken, and the kings of the earth cry out to the mountains to hide your hiatus from the wrath of the land. And she's digging in the dirt. You know, yeah. She's the only one who faces the reality of what has happened to her, or what sorry, the reality of who she is, and what she's done, and, and responds appropriately with terror. You know, I just I just didn't see. I just didn't see any of that anywhere. I think honestly, that the closest thing you got, besides that was the sheriff and his son.

Seth Price 58:17

I do want to talk about the sheriff in the sun. Kathy, do you also hate the ending? Yeah.

Kathy Khang 58:21

Oh, yeah. I hated the ending. I hate it. It was a cop out. It was total cop out of oh, so after all of that, it's fine. We're fine. It's all good. And, to me, again, that feels very, I mean, it feels very in line with the way things are going politically, it feels very in line with the way the Western white Evangelical Church handles things. It's kind of like, yeah, you know, these things happened back then. Even though it's literally in the show just a couple weeks ago, or maybe, like hours ago. And but it's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. And, and I didn't, I didn't like that because I I want my vengeance. I want to come up and at the end, and yeah, it would have been great to see Bev burn, but I did like her trying to dig herself into hiding, because she knew what was going to happen. Right? Whereas everybody else is like, oh, let's just hang out with the people we love and you know, the priest and his he did that I hated that and we're gonna bring our dead daughter and we're just gonna hang out on this bridge and what like, what's what's only and that again, for me felt quintessential American church, wrap it up with a bow. Because at the end, all that matters. It doesn't matter how you lived your life. If at the very end you say, I believe that's all that matters, right? So it's that, like, Oh, you're I want I want the apology. I want the acknowledgement of what happened. And so that the ending just felt like,

Seth Price 1:00:11

yes, yeah. But they had the tempo of near my god to the slowed way down, which is that kumbaya song you're talking about Jr. I'm pretty sure it's near my god to the kids is actually in a few episodes, it's actually kind of inner woven throughout most of the show, which is clever as well, I don't know the history of that of that him, I should look it up, maybe it has even more,

Kathy Khang 1:00:30

but also played in a way that I don't know, you know, I feel like a lot of churches don't know how to sing and play hymns. So every

Seth Price 1:00:37

hymn becomes Thank you passions, thank you, right? Like,

Kathy Khang 1:00:41

every hymn becomes a dirge. And I'm like, huh, so anyway, hated the ending. Yeah.

Seth Price 1:00:47

So I, I love the sheriff's character. But for a reason that I, again, I haven't literally searched the internet to get other people's opinions. Mostly because I didn't I wanted to make sure when I talked to you all my, my thoughts were mine. I love the thought of a different type of faith community coming alongside and community with the church, looking at it going, that's not God. Please, son, don't do that. Because that's not God. Like, I might say, I worship a God. But I don't know what that is. But that's not God. Stop, don't don't get involved with that. And I love you enough to let you do it. And I might even show up and sit next to you. But this is not God, even all the way to the very end, like literally limping shot, hurt, bleeding, worshipping at the end even like, like a heroic figure of that's not God, and we don't even worship the same quote unquote, God. Thoughts on on that whole? I don't want to say monolithic placement of Islam, because I don't think that's what it is. But I do like that. It's just a different faith.

JR. Forasteros 1:01:44

He's an other, right? Yes. It was effective in a way that having an evangelical or mainline Protestant on the island, but not much else. I don't Okay, yeah. Kathy, I'm curious how you how you had there? No,

Kathy Khang 1:02:01

I it was, it was uncomfortable. Because the moment you meet him, you know, you know, you know how the island is going to respond to him, you know, he's going to be an other you, you know that or at least I hope people know that. I'm going to give people the benefit of the doubt, which sometimes fails me, but and so for watching that felt really uncomfortable, particularly as somebody who was so rooted in the evangelical space still being considered and other, right, so for me, it was like, it didn't matter what religion I said, I practiced, I practice the same religion, but because I look different, and some of the things that my family does, the language we speak, is different. We're still other and so it felt a little bit like Well, of course, the easy trope is to put a Muslim family who has locked Why is it always the mother is dead, like, it's like, it's like Disney, the mother always dies. And, and so I, you know, that felt expected in a in a, in a show that was going to use the Protestant faith, the foil has to be something that we recognize as others. So that felt easy. But But and it can easily be turned around, right? That's what evangelicals feel white evangelicals often feel like they are the sheriff looking at the world saying, Oh, that's not of God, that's not of God, that's not of God. So I think it's, it's a tricky play. Because those, those roles can easily be switched out in the mind of the white church. Whereas for me, who had you know, as a, as a woman of color, Asian American Korean American, I have some proximity because of education and socio economic status. And yet, over and over, it's been proven to me, that I'm still the other that that I can speak flawless English, and raise third generation American children. And I'm still told you should be grateful for being in this country literally, just three weeks ago. So So I think it's hard. I love the character and the the, the sheriff and his son and that relationship feels real in the tension of any religious family, having a child who is just being a child and wanting to figure things out on their own. And I loved the like, Please don't go but fine. Okay, then I'm going to show up with you. I hope that I have continued to show that courage as my adult children walk their own lives of faith, because I have to tell you that the church has not modeled That for me. And I, so I looked at that, and I go, Oh, so it's okay to tell my children, I really don't like this. And I no longer have the power to ground them because they're 20 years and older. But, but, but Right, the current church tradition has not given me the tools to walk with them in their own journey. And so that was a little bit of like, oh, I can forbid it until a certain point, but what does it look like to maybe come alongside? And even at the end? Will they will they come home, you know, will they come home, and whatever that looks like, That, for me felt good. That was like, the only good part of that ending was, I don't have to force it. I just hope that my children don't have to deal with vampires.

JR. Forasteros 1:06:00

You know. So, so, my parents divorced when I was a teenager, and I'll try to speak as broadly as possible, one of my parents is significantly less emotionally healthy than the other. And it was difficult to see that during that time that I was a teenager. But I figured it out eventually. And I have a number of friends who are divorced, and who are struggling with co parenting in the wake of divorce. And they have one parent who is the Disneyland parent, you know, who, who just gets to, you know, either just see the kids on the weekends, or is just committed to making the other parent look bad, you know, and all this kind of stuff. And, and, of course, because teenagers are teenagers, like I was teenager, like, we, you know, we all have a point where I think I think we fall for the the fun parents syndrome, you know. And so as I'm, as I'm counseling and sitting with my friends and grieving, you know, the struggles that they're in, one of the things I keep telling them is like, your kids are gonna figure it out eventually, like, I figured it out eventually. And yeah, I had to apologize to my parents, you know, for how I treated them. But I think that's what we were seeing in a lot of ways. You know, again, I think it's one of the things the show didn't even really call attention to, but it was just there was the way that Ali wants to rebel by fitting in, you know, which is such a teenager thing to do, right? Like, I don't want to be like my dad, I want to be like everyone else, because I want to be different. Okay. Again, I did that. I'm sure we all did that in some way. But yeah, he figures it out at the end. Because when you get right down to it, if you're willing to step back and be honest, it's not hard to tell the difference between God and a vampire. You know, it's not actually it's not a trick question. It's not hard. You know, when it comes right down to it. Yeah, one of them is one of them is only destroying everything. And one of them is the source of life and hope and healing, you know, and it gets confusing because of the way we religious AI everything. I don't think that's a word.

Kathy Khang 1:08:17

But it is now

JR. Forasteros 1:08:19

it is there we go. Yeah. But you know what I mean? Like, like, I think, I think when we get right down to it, and we ask what is good, what is true? What is what is healing? What is wholesome? And the best meaning of that word? It's not actually that hard to tell the difference. And I think I think the I think the problem is we've grown up in church cultures that don't ask those questions, and so ended up promoting a lot of junk that is not that, you know, we have a lot of vampires hiding in our church closets. And, and so what we have taught people to think is like, if it's a church, it's of God, rather than if it's good, it's us, God. Right. And that means our churches need to ask that question too. You know, we've like we've let our beds and our Monsignor Pruitt's run the church for too long. Both both the like, obvious, cartoonish villains except they're not cartoonists, do we all know, Beth. But and then the well meaning ones to write who will who will willingly make the small, seemingly innocuous compromises if it means things can be great again,

Seth Price 1:09:22

which is Riley's mom. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

Kathy Khang 1:09:26

yeah. And most of the adults right on the island at some point, are they there's, there's something they want, that they see is within reach if they choose to, to, to become vampires to follow along and play along with the rules of this new society. And I think that's the hard part of it all is and that's why, you know, good intentions don't matter. Because if you don't check them at the beginning They continue to grow into this deep selfishness without realizing you're you're surviving on other people's death. Yeah. And as violence as horror can be and this show for people, and for me, the parallel is also squid game, right? It's

Seth Price 1:10:21

not watch that. Yeah. Should I watch that? You should watch.

Kathy Khang 1:10:26

Watch it. Right. So people talk about the violence in the blood. And it's kind of like, oh, but we do this on a daily basis to one another without the blood. Does that make it better? No, actually, it doesn't, because it is the blood that makes us go EU. Whereas otherwise, we can kind of blind ourselves to the drive for personal wealth and gain and feeding our own addictions. That's exactly what is happening on the island. That's what happens in squid game and this kind of purity around Oh, well, I I don't it's too violent for me. And I just think, Oh, you don't live in a capitalist society? That is we are violent to one

JR. Forasteros 1:11:12

another. Well, we hate we build systems that hide the violence. Oh, absolutely.

Kathy Khang 1:11:16

Or, or numb it. So we don't feel it. And we we say, Oh, it's a good thing that we have weekends. And isn't that wonderful? And just in case spend all of your Sunday at your church to make sure you feel good about the rest of the week where you are working to the bone? Yeah, in a dog eat dog world so that you can have your share?

Seth Price 1:11:40

Yeah, yeah, for me the line. And so I was telling Jr. I watched some of the show again. So I was rewatching episode one. And there's a line in there spoken by the sheriff that I think encapsulates the whole show. And honestly, faith in general. So there's a part where Joe, the guy that his dog died, is literally wakes up and he's in jail. And he's like, You locked me up sheriff. And he's like, No, you were you were literally trying to get in here. So I just let you in. If you'd have had a better aim, you'd have broken everything on the way in and like this thought about fine. If that's what you want. I'll give that to you. Which is actually a good way I think to think about God as well, if that's what you want. Okay, I think it's a bad choice, my son or my daughter or my whatever, that's a bad but I'll okay. That's, you know, I don't know, maybe that's maybe that's too over originalist. But, but yeah, yeah. So so this is not about midnight mass, but it's something that I've asked everyone. And so as just kind of a final question. I'm curious, when you all try to say what God is? What is that? What do you tell people?

Kathy Khang 1:12:43

Hmm. God is all that is good, and beautiful and hopeful. That gives life not in some future that I don't know yet, but in the now. And so God is present. When I watch my daughter dance. When I listen to my son, talks about the beauty and the lessons he's learning watching anime, and the connections my youngest makes, to how he is seeing himself created beautifully and God's image when he listens to Kpop. That's God. That's done for me.

JR. Forasteros 1:13:43

Yeah, for me, it kind of depends on who I'm talking to. I usually try to express God in terms of kind of what Kathy just did right with with each of your three children, you know, that God, God is evident in different ways to each of her kids. But recently, in the last couple of years, I've been challenged by a good friend of mine, who's a member of my congregation. He was preaching at our at our church on mystery and on the limits of intellect. And the way he framed it was a way I had never heard it before. And it really kind of unlock some stuff for me. He said, usually, when we think of mystery, we think of a detective novel, which I do because I love crime novels, right? That a mystery is a puzzle to be solved. And if you just have enough information, and if you arrange the pieces in the right order, then this picture comes up and you're like, Ah, you get the euphoria that eureka moment. And he said but but divine mystery is something that is fundamentally unknowable. Like we can't we can't see the picture. It's too much. You know, maybe maybe it's maybe it's colors are beyond the spectrum our eyes can even comprehend right? It just, it is it is we are we are fun. mentally incapable of, of perceiving or beholding the thing that is mysterious. And so all we can do is sit in its presence and receive it. And so I don't know, I was really struck by that. And so I've been, that's how I've been. That's how I've been thinking about and experiencing God and even communicating about God in the last couple of years that God is the God as the good mystery that's at the heart of existence. God is the source of As Kathy said, everything that is good and true. And and we know that mystery, best through Jesus Jesus is the one who makes the mystery accessible to us. And so it's, it's through encountering the divine mystery again and again and again and again, that we can be a people who even knows what good justice work looks like. You know, who even knows what, because, again, I'm a big fan of Cornel West's justice is what love looks like in public right? And so if we are if we are participating in the divine mystery, that not only are we learning to love ourselves well, but we're also learning to love others as well and that you know, that looks like justice work.

Seth Price 1:16:16

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, good. So where should people go they've listened we've spoiled the show. If you're still listening you should have watched the show that's on you it's not on me it's not on me for that yeah, definitely not Where do you want to direct people to to kind of jump into this stuff? I feel like Yeah, I like I like the way that Jr talks about meat sacks or Kathy you know, they want to get into the way that you whatever you order where do you want to point people towards?

Kathy Khang 1:16:46

For me, I would say you can find me on the socials I spend most of my time on Instagram and Twitter at Ms. Ms. Kathy calm and then I also have a blog that last week I had two posts on for the first time in like two years so so there's probably more she's on. And that would be cafe comm.com.

JR. Forasteros 1:17:14

I'm I'm at Jr. Foresters anywhere that it's worth finding me. And then yeah, like my sermons and everything are Agera foresters calm. And then I, I co host the podcast. And actually a couple years ago, we did a big, big, big rebrand and brought on a new co host and everything. And I feel like it's been just a lot better ever since we did that. So that that host, of course is Kathy Khan. So yeah, we co host the fascinating podcast together.

Seth Price 1:17:45

I was gonna say you're gonna say what the name of the show is, or you're just gonna make them good.

JR. Forasteros 1:17:51

It's a fascinating podcast.

Kathy Khang 1:17:52

Yeah. And this has been a great season. So

JR. Forasteros 1:17:55

yeah, it really has weed. And we're, we're about halfway through and we have some more really cool stuff coming up. So yeah, we talked about faith pop culture. And then I don't know how do you pitch it, Kathy?

Kathy Khang 1:18:08

Yeah, that's what I say faith, pop culture and whatever we happen to be interested in in the time that

JR. Forasteros 1:18:16

we just we just did an episode on the Bible and horror and talked about the the big story in the Bible where Solomon Samuels ghost. We have a couple of episodes on LGBTQ inclusion and religion coming up. I think we're interviewing Dominic Gilliard in a couple of weeks. He's great privilege. Yeah. So yeah. So I mean, we, you know, we, we kind of try to talk about stuff that that is important to us. And also, you know, to a lot of jokes and have some fun. And yeah, that kind of stuff, too. So I think that's it. Yeah. Agia forcers. And then the fascinating podcast. So

Seth Price 1:18:54

fantastic. Well, thank you both for your mornings Jr. It's I'm also equally impressed at how high you could hit that high note on key because I know you're an hour behind me. So it's still relatively early. Because you have not consumed a lot of liquid, I can see you so that's that's impressive, to be able to go up that high for fire. So thank you both so much for your time. I really appreciate you coming.

JR. Forasteros 1:19:13

Yeah, always a pleasure. So thank you.

Seth Price 1:19:30

Now, I haven't added it up. But there are hundreds of 1000s if not millions of podcasts on the internet. And I am humbled that you continue to download this one. This is your first time here. Please know that there are transcripts of these shows. Not always in real time, but I do my best. And if you go back in the logs, you can find transcripts for pretty much any episode that you'd like. The show is recorded and edited by me but it is produced by the patreon supporters of the show. That is one of the best if not the best way that you can support the show if you get it Anything at all out of these episodes if you think on them or if you, you know, you're out and about and you tell your friends about it or Hey, mom, dad, brother, sister, friend, boss, Pastor, here's what I heard. What are your thoughts on that? If this is helping you in any way, and it is helping me consider supporting the show in that manner. It is extremely inexpensive, but collectively, it is so very much helpful for you. I pray that you are blessed. You know that your cherished and beloved. will talk soon.