Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

Forrest Clay 0:09

I think we have a culture, we've developed a culture, especially in church circles where we are so oblivious and ignorant of other people's pain. We're seeing that all over the place now with racial issues and just the inability to empathize.

Seth Price 0:52

How are you beautiful people? How are you? So today at recording this, it is Thursday, January 7, I just got home from work. And I spent the day wondering what I saw yesterday, and I don't usually talk on the podcast, necessarily, about events in real time. But there was an image that I saw yesterday. That is haunted me like I literally thought about it. As I went to bed last night, I thought about it all day at work. And that image was Trump 2020 and underneath that it says Jesus for President or something to the similar of that, or something to that effect. And I don't know y'all. I try to give a wide berth to so many different viewpoints, because I almost always learn from all of them, even when I disagree with them 100%. I've found space to learn there. But I about lost my stuff yesterday.

Oh, I have so much more I want to say but but I don't know how to put what I want to say into words very well. Not at this moment. And you're probably wondering, what the heck does that have to do with an episode of the Can I Say This At Church podcast? And if this is your first episode listening, because you're a friend of the guest, or you know iTunes recommended it today. In a minute, we'll get back to normal, but I just felt like I needed to say something. People of faith, whatever addiction that we have, and that's what it is, it's an addiction to power. It was on full display yesterday (the day of the insurrection). And then I watched this morning replays of senators and congressmen basically exalting the Capitol building as if it's some form of church and houses a deity. I mean, they called it like temple, and they called it some other words that should be reserved for something way larger than a house of laws, and a house full of argument, and a house that belittles other people. Both sides do that, by the way.

And it's just we got to do so much better. If we don't, what is the whole point? So church, we've got to figure it out. And we have to do that together. And I fully mean this, we have to learn to listen to one another. And we have to learn to disagree with one another. Because we're all isolated, and we're all alone. This year has done that to us. And social media has put us in these echo chambers. And we aren't built to be alone and we're not built to be isolated. And don't hear me say that and put down the Coronavirus because that's a real thing. And I know people that have lost people to the virus, however, we've got to get so much better, and we need to do it now.

We need to figure out how to hear one another again. We've forgotten how to listen to each other. And I think because of that we've forgotten how to listen to the voice of the Divine because you and I bear a small piece of that voice. I mean, that's what the Bible is full of, right? It's full of people speaking as the mouthpiece of God; the prophets, and the priests, Jesus.

So what does that have to do with today's episode? So Forrest clay is on the show. And Forrest has shared a EP with me and you're going to hear some of that music, with his permission, interwoven into the episode. And I'm going to tell you, these songs are haunting because I hear my story. And I know from emailing and talking with many of you your story in the songs. I hear the stories of my friends in the songs, and I lament the church in these songs. It was not a happy EP, but I think it matters. Here we go, welcome to the show, an episode with Forrest Clay.

Seth Price 5:47

Clay, welcome to the show man. I'm terrified by your last name, so we're not gonna do it. People can look in the show notes, we're not gonna do that. But…I don't even know what day it is…this it's the middle of December. It's almost Christmas. It's late (in the evening). You just got off work. I just put all the kids to bed. We're both exhausted. But I figured this is probably the best time to have a conversation because why not.

Forrest Clay 6:09

Yes, no promises that mind won't come traipsing through the door here.

Seth Price 6:13

We'll just have them be on the show. Anyway, man, welcome. Thanks for coming onto the show. And, Marty, I don't think Marty's listened to any of these episodes. He'll tell me that he will. But he'll listen to this one because he's friends with you. So, Marty, thanks for putting us together. But yeah, man, who are you? Like people that are listening may or may not know who you are? What are you? Who are you? Why are you?

Forrest Clay 6:38

My name is Clay Kirchenbauer. And I am getting ready to release music under the name Forrest Clay because Kirchenbauer is far too hard to spell and Forrest is my first name. So I am from a little town in Ohio, kind of between Toledo and Cleveland lived here for 20 years since junior high and grew up in a fundamental Baptist household, you know, the type.

Seth Price 7:05

I am the type.

Forrest Clay 7:07

You are the type!

Okay, so I once I played I played basketball for my high school, my Christian High School. And there were multiple occasions where we would play road games where I would have to wear pants in the basketball game. So that gives you the idea of kind of my background.

Seth Price 7:24

Why pants I've never had to wear pants in a basketball game?

Forrest Clay 7:29

Yeah, well, male calves can be very sexual! (Seth begins to crack up laughing)

Seth Price 7:36

(through laughter) To whom? The players, the participants, the spectators?

Forrest Clay 7:41

If that's what you're into. So, now we didn't have to do that at our home games. But my wife, who I met in high school, she can attest to the very long cheerleading skirts that they had to wear. I think they did loosen up and let them wear pants my senior yeah. Well, you get the picture. So that's where I come from, yes.

So my musical background. My parents, my dad, is an incredible piano player, my mom gave voice lessons. And we grew up being dragged around from Baptist Church to Baptist Church, you know, just singing songs, and I'd be forced to be up front and sing songs. And my mother's dad was like a Baptist church planter. And so her whole life was she never lived anywhere longer than three years. They would, you know, move somewhere, plant a church and leave. And so that was just their whole background. I only moved once as a kid but, you know, that was kind of our childhood.

And then as I graduated, and moved on to like a big box evangelical church and spent 10 years as a music minister there. And through all that time, I was in a band called The Undeserving. And that's a whole ‘nother podcast story. But we had a major record deal with Warner Brothers Records, and we got to tour the country and did all sorts of cool stuff. But it was six years of misery and being broke. And when we were finally able to get off the label in 2012, it was a big relief.

And somewhere around 2015 I left the church I was at through all that time, as I was kind of beginning my deconstruction. Which for me started with creation theology. And, you know, being shocked the first time I found out there were Christians who didn't think the earth was 6000 years old.

Seth Price 9:39

There definitely are.

Forrest Clay 9:40

Yes, yes. I can tell you that my epiphany was watching a debate between John Lennox and Christopher Hitchens and it was all fascinating to me, but then when they both agreed that the Earth was old, I was absolutely dumbfounded. And that's kind of where my ball of yarn started unraveling.

Seth Price 10:02

Yeah. So you've been married how long now?

Forrest Clay 10:04

We got married in 2007.

And so thirteen years of calf induced marital bliss is what you're telling us, right? (Forrest cracks up)

Forrest Clay 10:14

Yeah, that's right. It was the calves? Yes.

Seth Price 10:19

Oh, man, there's been a lot of firsts set on the show. Nobody's ever called calves sexual.

Forrest Clay 10:25

I had no plans of mentioning that when you hit record, and it just kind of came out. So you're welcome.

Seth Price 10:31

You know, it's [begins laughing again]. So I do want to I want to circle back on some of that. So first, what do you mean by big box evangelical church? Like, that's, like big box for me is like Best Buy, Walmart, Sam's Club.

Forrest Clay 10:46

So, I would probably just refer to that as anything in the generally more theological, and politically, conservative churches that are along the lines of like a Bethel or even like Andy Stanley's type of theology, but, like any, that's a big range I get but you know, that kind of thing. Very American. Conservative leaning evangelical churches with all the lights and the show and the sound and yeah, that kind of deal.

Seth Price 11:16

Yeah, got it. Got it. Yeah. Okay, I can get with you there. I've been in those churches. Sometimes those are fun when I want to be entertained. I've never really grown in those churches. But you can be entertained very, very easily. I didn't know you were in a band called The Undeserving. I know, you said that's an entirely separate podcast, what kind of music is that? As soon as we're done, I'm going to Spotify or YouTube, and I'm going to binge it because that’s what I do.

Forrest Clay 11:38

Sure, so we were like a piano pop band. And I had written a few pop songs that we had kind of had recorded somewhere in like, 2006, 2007…it was ‘06, it was before I got married. And these songs kind of got in the hands of some Christian labels and that kind of thing. And we had label interest before we had played a show together, just because of these. Like, I just went to Nashville and recorded these songs, you know, before we even had really formed a band, that kind of thing.

And so we spent two years, just working our butts off, playing as many shows as possible. And then finally, kind of got in the right position, met the right people, and were able to sign a major deal. And we had a lot of amazing experiences. The only real claim to fame I have is we were able to pay off our record advance with TV placements, which is kind of like unheard of in these these days. But our record never got released till after we were off of the label. But we paid back our advances by having songs on all sorts of big TV shows, American Idol, big network shows that licensed a few of our songs. So chances are you actually heard a few of the songs, but you have no idea.

Seth Price 12:59

Yeah, so we're gonna pivot from there. But after I'm done recording, I'm going to listen to that. Yeah, because why not? Yeah, that's fascinating. So I will say, I like to sing. And I want to pivot, I want to drill down in some of your lyrics, because I think that's going to kind of unravel just faith in general, because your lyrics; and I think I told you this when we started talking a little bit earlier, whenever the month was November, beginning of December. Like, dude, you can write! I'm assuming these are all you like, there's no like co-writers, like you're just, yeah, yeah. And I also like, anyway, so we'll get there.

So before I get there, though, I can't sing as high as you. I tried actually in the car to sing with you. And it just didn't work. It didn't work. So as a singer, what amount of confidence does one need to go up to that falsetto that you seem to do just because you feel like you know, yeah, we're 10 seconds in let's do this. Let's just hit the falsetto let's just sustain it for a minute and then drop back down. What amount of confidence is required for that? Just for those that want to try to be a singer?

Forrest Clay 14:06

Well, yeah, what you're not hearing there is the, you know, hour of like vocal exercises that I'm doing before I sing. So this summer, even in the midst of COVID I played to make a living I started doing cover shows at like winery’s. So we live up by the lake in Ohio, by Lake Erie and there's wineries all over the place. And so I kind of finally bit the bullet and put together like three hours of covers and I would you know, sprinkle some original songs in there sometimes. And singing for three hours straight is something that I had never done before. And it was bad at first (but) by the end of the summer it was no problem at all. And even weeks where I had, you know, two or three shows like that third show was like better than the first one. Man your voice is the muscle. So if you let it sit It goes bad and mine does it to me. My shows have all ended because its winter and cold. And you're not allowed to play music indoors in Ohio right now, which is fantastic and awful. And so I basically sing two songs a week on Sunday mornings at the church I'm currently at, and I will often have voice cracks and like, it just gets, if you don't exercise it, it gets bad.

Seth Price 16:07

I agree. So I lead the worship at my church as a lead, I sing probably the bulk of the music. And yeah, for a while you're in a rhythm. And then I didn't sing or play the guitar for like, four months, because of the lock downs, everything. And then when we finally were able to get back together, I think like late September, I tried to sing. And I just decided to try to sing like, some songs that should have been in my range. And then when I tried to play them, I was like, I don't…I don't…what's happening in there? I don't see where did you go friend, come back. So I sang in the car for like a month, the same song over and over and over and over again. And eventually it came back. But I still don't have that range.

But I will say so I was playing it even tonight. And I was just sitting there trying to hum with a falsetto. I couldn't do it, it pissed me off. So I'm slightly jealous, slightly angry. It's enough to make me anyway, it just makes me angry.

Anyway, so the recovery EP, what are you trying to do? What's its purpose? What's its point? Because the songs or the songs are fantastic. So thanks for sending them. For those listening I've been able to listen. And for those that are listening, they may not currently, depending on when this episode comes out, be able to hear all of them. What are you trying to get at? What are you trying to rip apart and kind of why?

Forrest Clay 17:23

Sure. So like I said, I spent most of my life in, you know, fundamentalist type of environments, and my parents are wonderful people. And I think though, when you're kind of in that environment, it's hard to avoid trauma in many aspects, you know, just the rules, not just the rules, but the control the power dynamics, and I just kind of began really to see the church line itself up with conservative politics. And me kind of spending most of my life as you know, a conservative, all of a sudden, I should say that I wrote this, I wrote most of this, EP shortly after the 2016 election. So it's been sitting in my laptop for several years.

So I think I wrote recover sometime right after the 2016 election. And so at that point, I had, as my theological beliefs had, deconstructed that led me also out of conservative politics. And as I watched the church line itself up with conservative politics, it just was painful to me. And like, so many people have expressed all of those things of, you know, watching your friends and your family who had instilled these, you know, kind of wonderful values into you; values like kindness and respect and nobility and honor and faithfulness elect someone then who didn't represent any of those things. And, you know, just like many people, especially many people my age that was enough for me to just have a good cry and sit and write some songs about it. And that was kind of the start of it for sure.

Seth Price 19:02

I think that's what just before but the lyric where I can't remember why I was driving to work actually pulled over at an exon to rewind it because I was listening you know, in Dropbox, and I can't control the the slider. But the lyric in Recover, which will most likely be out by the time this airs because…

Forrest Clay 19:21

Yeah, it's out now.

Seth Price 19:21

Perfect. Yeah. So the lyric is can I read your own lyrics back to you? So you said

I learned from a book that you would take in the heart out of

I'm assuming you mean the Bible there…

That's how I learned how to make exclusion look like love.

And that last line, like, I think it's the way you actually sing the word love that like it, it just the timber just falls off like it just it just falters. Like it just falls on its knees and just like rolls on the floor. I don't know. There's just, but I can remember so What are you getting at there? So what in the church that you grew up in is making exclusion look like love? And I say that tongue in cheek because I agree with you.

Forrest Clay 20:01

Yes, it kind of stems from that idea of like, hate the sin, love the sinner. You know, that kind of idea. I specifically remember one specific instance, where someone had like, messaged our churches Facebook page, and they had asked about, you know, they were in the LGBTQ community or someone that they live with or something like this. And they were just wondering, like, what the church's position was on it.

Seth Price 20:32

This church you were singing at (working in)?

Forrest Clay 20:34

Sure, yeah. And, obviously, I kind of knew that what-that position was, and I wasn’t the one responding, but I had access to the Facebook page, so I could see the interaction. And I just remember them, giving kind of like that generic like, “everyone is welcome here” response that is so common. And they asked for a follow up like, “no, what is your actual like are we welcomed there?” Like, are we affirmed there?

Seth Price 20:58

Can I take communion there? Can I get married? If we adopt a kid can they be baptized here?

Forrest Clay 21:02

Exactly. And, to me, that's kind of what that lyric is. Maybe not that specific instance. But like, those kind of examples happen so often, and I just got tired of seeing friends and family not be welcomed. And that's what that line is.

Seth Price 21:23

Yeah. What changes for you now? You said you lead two songs a Sunday or whatever, at your church versus when you were leading worship at a big box, evangelical church. I like that actually, my wife uses the word doc-in-a-box for the emergent care, I'm going to use big box for the church thing.

Forrest Clay 21:43

I don’t know where I heard that but I like it.

Seth Price 21:44

I like it. Well, you can take doc-in-a-box every time I say like, Ooh, I like that. I'm like, Yes, just pop in, pop out, get a prescription. Let's go back in a box. Let's make it happen. What is the biggest difference that you found? where you're like, Yeah, when I'm singing, I'm leading worship in I'm assuming a smaller church? I don't know?

Forrest Clay 21:59

Yes. So I'm in the United Methodist Church right now. And I reluctantly got asked to do this, like, I think a year and a half ago. So I went from the big church to a smaller version of kind of a similar denomination, spent a year there, left that church. (Then) spent another year in Alliance church, who, the pastor, they're still one of my good friends, and then really didn't, you know, they still theologically I was kind of already progressing past kind of where they were at. But I loved what they did in their community. And it was like the first time that I really just appreciated a congregation as a whole under the leadership. But I still, like theologically, I still was kind of just like, I don't believe any of this stuff anymore. And so then I got asked to do this worship service you know, at this United Methodist Church in town. And I did not want to do it at all.

But, you know, the music business is not much of a business for many of us. And so I called the pastor and I just for the first time ever, I was just like, “Hey, this is where I'm at. And if you want me to come do this, then you got to be okay with it.”

Seth Price 23:13

Theologically?

Forrest Clay 23:14

Yes, theologically, politically, and all of those things, and it worked out great. And so, you know, it's not a full time job or anything like that. But it's something I do on Sunday mornings. And now we have a drive-in service because a COVID.

Seth Price 23:27

A driv-in service, what is this?

Forrest Clay 23:29

Most of our congregation are, you know, elderly or, you know, boomers and that kind of thing. And so, we've just been extra really careful with COVID. And so we have a, like an outdoor shelter house, like a little like a little canopy type thing that somebody donated and we have a FM wireless transmitter and a couple microphones and we just everybody drives in and stays in their cars and we do church like that. That's what we do. We pass out little communion cups and then have like two songs, a 20 minute sermon, communion, and we're out of there.

Seth Price 24:07

You're doing the sermon too?

Forrest Clay 24:09

I don't do the sermon. No, no, no, no one would want that!

Seth Price 24:15

He's preaching in here!

Seth Price 24:16

Give me a minute. We'll be right back.

Seth Price 25:09

I want to talk about Dear God (I mean “Does God”).

Forrest Clay 25:12

Okay.

Seth Price 25:13

Mostly, so the first time I listened to it, I liked it okay. But as I've listened to it more and more and more, I've listened to it like once a day now. I actually have some feedback that has nothing to do with the episode. Let me just tell you that because it's probably just me. I really thought at the end, you're going to begin naming John, and everyone else from “You Must Go”.

Forrest Clay 25:36

Oh, yeah. I didn’t even think about that!

Seth Price

Anyhow, just to kind of tie it all together. But I realized that you wrote them all at separate times. And so, maybe not. But at the end, it was actually yesterday, I think I thought about I was like, why don't you just pull in the same names anyway, it doesn't matter. You could rerecord it. Why not? But, Dear God, what is that? Kind of what's the why behind that? What are you trying to get out there?

Forrest Clay 25:58

Sure. So the song's called “Does God”, sorry.

Seth Price 26:02

Oh, “Dear God”. I can't read without my glasses on.

Forrest Clay 26:04

That's okay. Totally fine. “Does God” was the most recent song and I wrote that song after reading The Universal Christ. And I also read Michael Gungor’s book This. And I've really been drawn to the idea of, you know, obviously, Richard Rohr is such a giant in theology, and he's impacted my world greatly. But I've really been drawn to the idea of like, panentheism versus kind of like pantheism and dissecting the differences and kind of hopping back and forth. But just the idea that we are the universe observing itself. But then also that God is among us and is us.

And I love Richard roars line that, you know,

God loves things by becoming them

And that line really jumped at me. And in so “Does God” is basically a series of questions, followed by the only affirmation, or the only really answer, I have is that like, this moment that we're in is God in the sense that like, this is what we experienced. This is the universe as it is, this is the gift, if that makes any sense at all. That was kind of a ramble. But yeah, and so like, as I go through the bridge, and I name kind of people and groups of people, especially I tried to be culturally diverse, I did my best. I mentioned (in) the first line is kind of maybe jumps out at people as like a weird rhyme. Russ and his husband, Gus. That's my uncle Russ and his husband, Gus. And his daughter, Alexis did the Recover art and she is doing the art for “Does God” as well, it will be released as a single with a full string arrangement and everything for orchestration. And so all that to say, that's where that song comes from, it really was inspired by those two books. And I'm really excited for it Seth.

Seth Price 28:07

I have not read This. I have listened to portions of that podcast “This”. But I haven't read it. I want you to rip apart a lyric in verse two. So the lyric is

did God kill his kid?

Which the word kid there really hits hard for me? Because that's so…that's my boy. Like, it's different. It's almost different than “son” and it's more personal.

Did he have to have blood before he could forgive? Maybe we made a God to look like us.

Forrest Clay 28:38

Sure.

Seth Price 28:39

What do you think that God looks like? Like what have we as a people as a church as a nation as a faith as a whatever metaphor that you want to put on that? Like, what do you think we've made God look like? And then where should we pivot?

Forrest Clay 28:50

Absolutely. Well, I think through you know, obviously much of history, and including Old Testament history, God is quite vengeful. And I think for me when I started to go down the penal substitution road and start to really analyze that and deconstruct that it became less and less meaningful to me and more and more traumatizing. And you know, what did it for me on that was…there's a meme going around, and it's Jesus knocking at a door. I don’t know if you've seen this.

Seth Price 29:26

Oh yes, it’s repurposed often I like the Halloween one.

Forrest Clay 29:30

I don’t know if I’ve seen that one.

Seth Price 29:33

It's him trick or treating. He's holding a bucket. And they, you know, they redo the words to make it but it really does make me laugh at times.

Forrest Clay 29:38

Yes, you know, the meme.

Seth Price 29:39

It's really inappropriate, but I love it.

Forrest Clay 29:41

Totally. And so, that was like, okay, how can God use violence for good? It goes against God's nature completely. And so that line, you know, is about maybe God is not like this. Maybe we want God to be like this because that's how we are and I just tried to do my best to express that in that second verse.

Seth Price 30:07

Yeah, the other song and I think this is the one that I messaged you about, “Go”. I don't necessarily want you to give away the song. But can you kind of tell me the heart behind that song? Because, again, I want to leave people wanting something.

Forrest Clay 30:23

So that song, “You Must Go” comes from personal experiences watching people no longer feel welcome within the church. And yeah, the first verse is about a gay man, second verse is about someone who deconstructs and then the third verse is about a black woman you know, in a white culture and kind of their stories on how they no longer fit in and can't stay in the church is there at.

Seth Price 30:52

As a worship pastor, um, that's what I’m calling you right now, because why not? You're still leading worship. Once a pastor always a pastor. Do you see hope at all after say, COVID is done or three years from now everybody's taken the vaccine because why not? And things are back to whatever somewhat of normalcy because I don't know that I have much hope for the church, which is really scary because I like my church. I like the community there. I like that my church also sounds like similar to yours, where I'm allowed to question. I'm also allowed to say I'm not singing a song. Because I have an issue with some of that.

Forrest Clay 31:24

I do that all the time.

Seth Price 31:25

Yeah, outside of the you know, and recording right before Christmas, like I'm not singing Mary Did You Know. I just, I hate that song, and I'm not gonna sing it…

Forrest Clay 31:34

Agreed

Seth Price 31:35

…ever. If Hell is real, that song is on repeat on vinyl, the nice vinyl. So do you find any hope at all, or do you think there is any hope at all for people like me, people like you people who've listened to the show that are like, I can't? Like I've deconstructed, I'm on the other side, God is something entirely different. And the reason I ask that question is, there's a lyric in the song where you say, you know,

we love you, but we can't love you. And so you must go.

And I think that that's really the attitude and the posture of a lot of churches, yeah, on both ends on both the conservative end and on the progressive end. Because if you're not accepting enough, we can't love you, you've got to go. And if you're, you know, if you love the wrong gender, can't love you, we must go, you know, so do you see anything, what hope is there?

Forrest Clay 32:24

I find lots and lots of hope in individuals who do amazing things who sacrifice and are committed to serving their communities and the people around them. I find lots of hope in those types of things. I don't find hope in the system of the church and its hierarchies.

You know, obviously, I say that as someone who now is in a mainline denomination. I have hoped for some denominations more than others. But as a whole, like the church as a whole, I think is going to have to do some massive self examination over the next few years, especially if the statistics are obvious, like, you know, young people are leaving in droves. And, you know, myself included, and I think mass self examination is due.

The hard part is, to me, much of its tie to conservative politics is rooted in some sort of theology as well. And I think it's hard to separate those two things. And a lot of people smarter than I have tried [to] analyzed that. But I think those two things are going to have to be broken. Like I think theologically conservative people are going to have to figure out how to disconnect their conservative theology from the conservative politics.

I think that also goes the other way as well. But you know, they're the ones that elected Donald Trump and I think that is that has to be reckoned with on some level. Absolutely.

Seth Price 34:05

You said you grew up Fundamentalist Baptist. I grew up Independent Baptist, which is, you know,

Forrest Clay 34:12

The same.

Seth Price 34:14

Oh, there we go. A lot of people like yeah, that's even more...

Forrest Clay 34:16

We were independent fundamental videos, both words were included.

Seth Price 34:20

I think ours was Independent Regular Baptist. I don't even know what regular Baptists are. All I know is we look down at a lot of other people. If there was a high church, we thought we were it (Clay laughs). And we definitely were not. But we thought we were. And yeah, so I have found it hard to reconcile any conversations about faith because we just I just don't agree. And I butt heads with so many different things. So you said that, you know, you grew up and that's just like, ingrained in your family. How has it been both writing music in the way that this is because I have to assume you've let your family listen? And then like, where are you at with that? How do you navigate through that or they like “Yeah, no, we support you 100% it sounds pretty good, he's gonna burn in hell or is it the opposite way?

Forrest Clay 35:07

It's a continual discussion and continual process that will probably continue for a long time. Our relationships are rooted in love. And I think that is more than some people have. And for that, I'm very grateful.

Seth Price 35:26

Yeah, what song on this album was the hardest for you to actually sing, not necessarily, write but to sing..

Forrest Clay 35:30

Recover. Recover, to me is the most raw expression of of pain. I think we have a culture, we've developed a culture, especially in church circles, where we are so oblivious you know and ignorant, of other people's pain. God we are seeing that all over the place now with racial issues, and just the inability to empathize. And God I wrote this song so long ago, it's hard for me to really remember the whole process but it didn't take me very long. I remember these lyrics coming out very quickly, which is not normal for me. And I remember lots of tears writing them, it was a really just a raw expression of pain, you know what I mean?

And just like saying, I'm gonna write this song that's really free of metaphor. There's no guessing what I'm talking about here, you know? And just like, hey, this is this is what I see. And it hurts. And I don't know how to process it totally. And honestly, even the last line was hard to write.

I think there's a way for us to love and heal the world.

Sometimes I think that,

Seth Price 36:41

Yeah, well, again, this song as well, that I won't do it anymore that falsetto. I'm just telling you, man that falsetto. Your falsetto is the calves of singing. It's the calves of the album. (Clay laughs)

Yeah, it's there.

So you talked about young earth creationism? What are some of the other things that you're like? Nope, that is total BS. Like, there's no way that that even matters? (laughs again) Like, what are some of those other things?

Forrest Clay 37:07

End times theology? Man, it's been a while since I've talked about these things. I mean, creation theology is the easiest one for me to talk about. Because I spent several years going through it even while still at my church. One of my older songs, from my previous EP, the last music I put out, like three years ago, was called the Creation EP, and there's a song on there called, I forget what it’s called…the first track. And you know, it was written the chorus line is

everyone was made to feel 14 billion years of love.

And, you know, I wrote that song at my church in the choir room, you know, and this is the church that didn't hold those beliefs. And that process for me was, like I said earlier, just that epiphany of this is not matching up with the reality that I observe on a daily basis. And then I spent several years kind of going down that pathway going from like, oh, there's this old earth creationism. And then there's, you know, there's like, the Biologos people and, you know, etc. And I kind of went through all of those phases. At one point or another.

Seth Price 38:21

I mirror, or I can echo, a lot of that. Remember, for me, it was a virgin birth that was the first thing.

Forrest Clay 38:28

Yeah that a big one,

Seth Price 38:30

Right?

Yeah. And then when I realized I'm like, wait, so that's, oh, damn said that he just missed translated a bad translation. And then Jerome put it in? Because that's, and that's my whole bio, and your Bible. And what that come on, come on! I can remember people getting me they're like, why can't you just let it leave it alone? I was like, leave it alone. Like, do you understand, like, context matters.

You want me to leave it alone? Like Snapchat, and 1000 years from now, nobody will know what that is without context. So don't tell me leave it alone.

Forrest Clay 39:02

Even the Gospels in the life of Jesus, you have, you know, 30 years between when he was here and when these people wrote this stuff down. Thirty years at best, really is what we're talking about. And so, just those ideas like, okay, what what do I misremember from three years? What are the most powerful moments of my life that I misremember, or that get blown out of proportion? You know, I remember that I scored 25 points in that game where I had to wear pants, you know what I mean? But I may have only scored 13. I don't remember.

But all of that to say. This is why Richard Rohr, again, has been so meaningful. For me it literalism is the lowest form of meaning. And that has saved whatever semblance of faith that I have that has allowed me to see the Gospels and the Jesus story in a way that the questions I asked about it are no longer you know, did it happen or not? Because that mean so much less to me then how can my life be transformed by the love and mystery of this story?

Seth Price 40:10

Yeah. So I got just a couple more questions, and then I'll give you back to your evening, because what are we at? I mean, remember, are you're in the same time zone as me or no?

Forrest Clay 40:20

Yes. Eastern.

Seth Price 40:21

So definitely we're coming on 10:30. So someone sits down, they light a candle, because that's the way I like to listen to music. I'm one of those, like, someone just recommended to me, the new Colony House. First off, I had never listened to Colony House, ever. I didn't know that was a band. And he’s just like listen to this one song. And I'm like, nope, I have to start at number one. I assume that every song has a purpose. And maybe they don't and I loved it. So someone sits down, they load up the EP when it's finally out. And in a minute, I'm going to ask you how we can help make that happen. Because I think people should hear these songs. Like I feel selfish that I've heard the songs because I genuinely was so moved. What do you want them to be at the end, like so they start with Recover and they end with…I don't know if the songs are in the same order that I have?

Forrest Clay 41:08

“Does God” is the final song.

Seth Price 41:10

Okay. Yeah, that's not the last one that I've been listening to. So what do you want them to walk away with? Like, when they sit down they turn it off And they're like, ah, like, what are you trying to evoke?

Forrest Clay 41:20

Well, I think for one thing, I hope people can listen in process. And that, that they can process that these songs are all expressions of grief, and pain and loss. I would not call this a happy EP.

Seth Price 41:35

No, no, it's not your other one was. The strings, it's beautiful. This one is very sad.

Forrest Clay 41:41

And so I don't like want to fool people into thinking that they're gonna feel better after this, I do hope that people can hear it, in that it allows them to put some sort of language on the experiences that they've had and haven't been able to process for themselves. That they can go, I went through that, and now I see it, you know, like this song helps me see that I went through that, and that I'm not alone.

Because that's the reality. The reality is you're not alone, you know, and that my story is not unique, unfortunately. And that's really my ultimate hope. Whether or not like, people leave, I put Does God on the EP last because I do feel like it's my most hopeful song. And I do want people to leave feeling less alone. But it is an expression of pain and loss. For sure.

Seth Price 42:37

As I was listening I was like I've been there. I've been there had that conversation last week did an episode on that one. That one before read a book on that one? And yeah, so yeah, so definitely.

If you're going to say what God is, and you're like, alright, I as Clay, I've got this figured out, like, what are you going to say? So if I asked you what is who is how, whatever that is?

Forrest Clay 42:57

What is God?

Seth Price 42:59

Yeah, why not? What is that?

Forrest Clay 42:59

I would say that God is all. Like my shirt says “love is all”. God is love. And God is all.

Seth Price 43:07

Where do you want people to go? How do we maybe help get the dang thing? Like, what do you need them to do to? Like, how does this happen? Where do you want people to go do the things?

Forrest Clay 43:16

Sure. So Recover is out right now. And it's on all of the streaming services. There's a lyric video on YouTube. The easiest way, I don't know when you're going to air this, but we are going to start a GoFundMe or a Kickstarter to help basically put the rest of the EP out. So by the time this airs, I will have that up. And you'll be able to find all that information on any of my social media sites. So the easiest way if you use linktree, and that will have all of the links. You ever seen linktree before?

Seth Price 43:45

I have. I even tried to make one once and I was like, I don't like this.

Forrest Clay 43:49

Yeah, it's super easy, especially like for like Twitter it doesn't work as good on Facebook. But so link tree.com slash Forrest Clay, that's Forrest with two R's. That will have a link to every one of my sites, Facebook, Twitter, but generally, you're going to find me at Forest Clay Music on any of the sites. And so by the time this airs, we will have whatever information we need to get the rest of this thing funded. And I don't really need a ton of money to finish it. But I do need some.

Seth Price 44:14

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We'll count me in because I think it needs to get heard. Yeah, absolutely. And you send me the link. And I mean, that count me in. Yeah. And that's in here now, because I can't edit it out of the video. So I'm committed. Yeah. Clay, thank you so much for your time. And for your trust in sending me your music. I really appreciate it. And thanks for coming on, man.

Forrest Clay 44:35

Thank you appreciate it.

Seth Price 44:37

I thought about many ways to end this episode. And there's going to be this request. And it's the one that I often make, but this show is produced by the patrons of the show, and recently by a little bit of ad revenue. And I am so very thankful for that. I can't even express how thankful like this is a thing and I can do this because of you all if you You get anything at all out of these episodes, considered chipping in a cheap coffee a month and helping the show to grow. Another easy way that you can help this show grow and reach more people is just share it on social media, share it with friends and family. Share it with people in your church or your faith community that are also wrestling with some big things, especially this year. Where you can rate and review it on iTunes it costs very little time and absolutely no money but it does help. Now I struggled as I said a minute ago with what to say to in this episode because because I used to be I feel like I used to be better at closing opening the episodes but I just sit down in front of this microphone. I say what's on my heart as I keep the episode in mind and I just reflect on the day or the week and one of the songs and I think it was referenced in the episode is called “Oh Church”, but I find it a song that seems to speak quite well to the way that I feel at least for today. Take care be blessed. I'll talk with you next week.