Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

Seth Price 0:00

What is happening? How are we doing before the regular show, so a minute of your time, in a few weeks, two or three weeks, you will hear an episode that I did with Adam Lewis Greene, who is the person behind Bibliotheca, which is a different version of the Bible. You'll find links to that in this episode, show notes. That's at bibliotheca.co. But I would encourage you to do that, because you'll want to know what the giveaway is. (It already happened)

So in that conversation, and throughout the organization of it, Adam, it said, let's give one of these away to a listener of the show. And that's a big deal like a: it's an expensive version of the Bible of a b: it's beautiful. And c: it has become one of my favorite versions of the Bible, because I see things that I don't normally see that way, because the verses in the script and the chapters are just gone. So it's like I'm reading without interruption. And I'm not explaining that well, but you'll see what I mean.

So here's kind of the rules for entry beginning with this episode and the next two. And so that third episode will be Adam Lewis Greene’s every time that you either rate and review the show on iTunes during this time period, or podbean, or anywhere else that you do, and I don't know how I keep track of those, because I don't get alerted to those. So just let me know that you did that. Every time that you do that, I'm going to go ahead and put your name in the hat for the drawing. The easier way though, and I think the way that most of you will do it is to just share this episode or the next few. And so for those of you that already share the episodes, congratulations, your name is going to be entered in the hat easily. But for those that don't normally share the show with others, just share the show, tag the podcast, you know, either on Facebook or Twitter, when you share it. And every time that that happens, I'm going to enter that name into a hat for the drawing. And so I'm really excited to see what happens I'm excited to see where it goes. So here we go into that begin regular episode.

(again…already did the giveaway)

Darren Calhoun 1:43

As pastors as church leaders, you're on pedestals. People expect us to have answers people look to us and sometimes we we think we're supposed to have all the answers and to be able to point to Scripture or verse to respond to everything with the Bible. But the reality is that we don't know at all. And even the Bible says, you know, this might be my King James coming through, we see through a glass darkly, we don't have the whole revelation. And while I'm convinced that our sexual orientation doesn't change there's still a lot of conversation about how do we respond in healthful and faithful ways to our sexual orientation? And that's the part where instead of saying, you know, I don't know let me ask someone, let me look, let me research, where we don't. And so I would say it's really important for pastors and church leaders and parents to be reading books. You know, you mentioned Brandon Robertson, Justin Lee, Matthew Vines. Folks who have been writing amazing works on this and who have organizations like the Reformation Project like Q Christian Fellowship, places where people are coming together specifically and healthfully to talk about this.

Seth Price 3:06

My family Welcome to the show. This is the Can I Say This At Church podcast, I am still Seth, and so I am still your host. Thank you for downloading. Thank you for being here. I am really excited for you all to hear today's conversation. But before you do, we have to do the obligatory things because I'm going to keep asking until you all keep doing it. I see the numbers of the downloads. And I know that most of you haven't rated and reviewed the show on iTunes, please do that. Those ratings help. And I personally love to read (them) you can just click a star, whatever star you want…one star five stars, it doesn't matter. Well, it does matter! But you know what I mean…But when you type your comments on the show, man, they blow me away, they're just so encouraging. Most of the time. Sometimes they're not. They're just so encouraging and so if you haven't done that, do that.

I would also beckon you to consider; so I recently have upgraded software for the show. And that has come in large part from the support of our patrons. And so the next thing on the list is a mic. I record every single one of these on like a $34 mic that I got off Amazon, which requires quite a bit of work to make it audible. And it's okay, I'm happy to do the work, but I would like it to sound a little better. And so that's next on the list for the years to kind of upgrade some of that, and then have other bigger things on the horizon. So consider becoming a patron of the show.

So over the last few months, for those of you that follow me on social media, you've seen the way that I talk about worship and the way that I talk about inclusivity in all manners and forms. And today's conversation is going to delve into some of those topics. And so I spoke with Darren Calhoun who is a lot of things but what I love that he is is genuine. And his story one that needs to be heard and told. We just scratched the surface of today's conversation. And we talked about conversion therapy. We talked about homosexuality in the church. We talked about liturgy, and reclaiming songs that were used once to oppress. We talked about a lot of things. So I really hope that you get something out of today's conversation. And if you do, please let me know. So I present to you this conversation that I had one afternoon with Darren Calhoun.

Seth Price 5:43

Darren Calhoun, thanks for coming on to the show, man. Thanks for making time. I know I think I originally asked you if you'd be willing to come on, I think like Thanksgiving, and then I forgot about it till January, and then I dropped the ball again until recently. So thank you for being patient with my lack of planning. I quickly realize that if my wife is not involved in the calendaring, it just doesn't happen. So I'm glad that both of us finally found a place to make it work. But thanks again for being here.

Darren Calhoun 6:09

I'm glad to be here.

Seth Price 6:11

I feel like well, so for past and prior listeners of the show, you're in a band or worship group or musical group. I'm not sure what the word is called The Many. And so for those listening the music from Nicole on Fat and Faithful that was well, I don't think the voice was yours. I think the voice was probably Leonora. I could be wrong, but because you don't have a female voice…

Darren Calhoun 6:39

I don’t!

Seth Price 6:40

but um, maybe you can hit a falsetto.

Darren Calhoun 6:41

There are parts with Lenora and on the song you're hearing you're primarily hearing Hannah sing.

Seth Price 6:46

Lenora, I'm sorry that I got your name wrong. But I would like to kind of put this conversation in perspective, a way that I always like to start is kind of just tell us what matters about you like so. If you were to drill back, and we've got as many minutes as you want to take, what makes Darren tick? Like what has been impactful for the person that you are right now?

Darren Calhoun 7:09

I mean, we could go way, way back, man and look at the circumstances of how I was born. I was a preemie, and the doctor said he is not going to make it until my parents to, you know, make plans either for me to be a vegetable, or for me to just not survive. And my parents had faith that I was going to do that. And they often had to resist doctors and push past all of that. And so now I'm a 6”2’ 230 pound man who's, you know, doing pretty well in life.

Seth Price 7:47

Definitely made it.

Darren Calhoun 7:51

Right. But that kind of resilience and perseverance have always been characteristics of pretty much every story. Where some group, some person, some authority, has counted me out, (and) told me that I wasn't going to make it that I'm not good enough. And that, not to, you know, not to be combative, but to literally say, No! I have a purpose, I'm going to live, I'm going to survive. And so that takes us into all kinds of really interesting places.

Seth Price 8:29

Yeah, take us into few of those interesting places. So since theology is basically the kind of backdrop of this show, where in your life has either the Bible changed meaning or had meaning, you know, that God had meaning or changed in meaning? And then how is that kind of informed where you sit at now with everything. And I guess honestly, at the end of that question, you probably have to say where you sit now, with everything put any of that to matter.

Darren Calhoun 8:57

Well, it's interesting. Um, I grew up in a home that was Christian but we weren't necessarily part of a church. And in my first church experiences I was right away involved in leadership and youth groups and lock-ins around I'm going to say sixth grade, so like 12 years old. And as a young teen, I was leading retreats and youth lock-ins and shut-ins and so forth. But it wasn't until college, that I really started digging into the Bible personally for the first time. And it was because people were telling me that the Bible says that you can't be gay.

And so that's an interesting place to start this personal relationship with Scripture. But it was because of that that I got involved even deeper in ministry. And there ended up being a campus ministry that formed, spent a few years trying not to be gay as a result of that. And really suffering the ways that Scripture and the ways that churches You can be abusive. And eventually it was also Scripture that, specifically The Message paraphrase, that challenged the circumstances that I was in. It was just like every time I see a bad church in the Bible, it looks like the church I'm a part of, and that's not okay. And so the same, the same thing that led me to years of bondage was the same thing that led me out of that bondage and that informs the advocacy, justice work that I do today.

Seth Price 10:34

So when you say, well, not bondage specifically but when you talk about like church as quote, “high in the sky” you know, this bad way of doing church like what do you mean? Like if you were to flesh that out a bit? What does that look like? Because I want to make sure people are listening and I have a few people in mind, actually, that I know will listen, that may in the next few years, be struggling with some of what you just described. They're going to go off to school. I know they happen to be gay, and I know know that there are pockets of our world that are loving, and there other bigger pockets that…well, they're not. And I don't think High School and or parenting, at least not if I ever have to deal with it I don't know how to prepare someone for that. And so, you know, for pastors listening and for people sitting at church like what did that look like? Like what were the telltale signs that you're like, “Alright, this is not healthy”. Like what was happening?

Darren Calhoun 11:26

Yeah, well one of the things that's hard about about seeing this is that it doesn't usually come out in overt and direct ways. The first conversation was, “hey, what does the Bible say about you being gay”? And, it was a Bible study, and that felt good. And I felt like, “Oh, this is something where nobody's just telling me what to do”. But what happens is, or what happened in my case was that evolved into some really unhealthy things around shame. So when, in that space where I mentioned not identifying as gay anymore, this story reached the ears of the pastor who was a part of the church that I joined at the time. And this pastor told me that I should never ever want to talk about having been gay. That I should be ashamed that was ever part of my life, and that should forget it ever happened. And his, well intentioned, but very harmful reasoning was, well, if people ever knew that you were gay then they would never receive you as a man of God. And so it puts on you these kind of unreasonable expectations that your story in some kind of way is a liability. And that honesty and transparency and truth comes secondary to how you're perceived.

And so it set up in me a very deep cycle of shame. (It) set up in me this question of, Okay, I'm a 19 year old who, at 18 is kind of when the campus ministry started at 19 now I'm being ordained as a minister and my pastor just told me that I should never talk about that part of my story. And now I'm feeling the weight of trying to figure these things out on my own. And this pastor never, ever, shared any of his struggles and his failures. He's always pointing the blame at other people. And so that is another thing that kind of happens where instead of listening, instead of being vulnerable about your own challenges and suffering, it's always you just need to be more spiritual—you just need to get it right. And so that it just continues to evolve to greater, greater, greater, and greater demands. These unreasonable expectations.

At one point, my story, I sat down with an elder because I was struggling with this shame that led to a sexual compulsion. And in that church, there was no difference between being gay and having an addictive behavior. It was all “a spirit'“. It was all spiritualized and “I just need to pray more, I just need to be more spiritual”. But the reality was that what they were telling me is not even Biblical stuff. They were saying, if you were really saved, I'd be able to see it in your eyes. And if you really want want to be saved and make it to heaven then you need to do everything that we say, so that you can get rid of that spirit.

And I knew in the moment that what they were saying wasn't Biblical. I had been teaching Bible studies for several years at that point. But I was so desperate for support (and) for help. I want it to be pleasing to God, I want to be pleasing to the people who represented God in my life. And it would be many, many, years before I built up the fortitude to realize that what they were doing was about behavior control and it wasn't about any kind of real life change. It wasn't about anything Scriptural. It was just they were objecting to homosexuality and in doing so they were spiritualizing all these rules and things to do that were supposedly going to help my life but they couldn't even do that.

Seth Price 15:15

I just want to circle back on some of that because I don't know that I've ever talked about it with anybody. So they were basically saying you know, your homosexuality is on par with his gambling addiction and her shopping addiction and his mental depression and that kids autism or whatever, like it's just something that you're just going to have to learn to cope with and control because you should be able to learn how to control this or am I miss hearing that?

Darren Calhoun 15:40

Um, well there's a few pieces in there. That particular comparison where we compare other quote unquote vices to sexual orientation. We never ever say you need to be delivered from heterosexuality, even though there's all kinds of sexual sin. But we say your whole orientation, every desire, your romantic desire, your companionship desire, your sexual desire, all of that is inherently bad. Which again isn't actually Scriptural. And that you have to get rid of all of that. And then this is where it gets really tricky if you aren't being sexually active with someone a lot of heterosexual people think, “Oh, you've been healed”. Or if you date someone, or marry someone of a different gender, they'll say you've been healed. But they've never accounted for what your temptations are, what your desires are, what your longings are for.

And so there's a part where you get your sexual orientation equated to things like just a “thorn in the flesh” or something that you just have to keep struggling with. But then there's this other side of it, where you're told that no if you're really spiritual, if you really believe God, if you're really a believer, that God will take this whole thing away from you. And that this is where conversion therapy comes in or this is where “pray the gay away” comes in. Where there's some act that you need to do that is going to alleviate you of these issues, and that if you don't receive that promise of freedom are healing, that it's somehow your fault.

And so who cares that they actually can't show that any of this is effective to help people? Who cares if you know the American Psychological Association says that this is damaging to people? As long as you can find that one person to say, “Well, my cousin got healed” or “my friend at work used to be gay and he's happily married with kids”. That becomes the thing that just throws out everyone else's stories and experiences with this holding true to the Bible.

Seth Price 17:52

Yeah. I've never liked when people say that because to me, it's disingenuous... I don't know. I don't have a good command of the English language. It's whatever that is. When people are like, I can't be racist like my cousin married a black person like so of course, I'm not racist. Like it puts all the onus on you or me to do it right or do it wrong, but I don't have any blame in this like, it's you just did it wrong. I'll pray for you.

I don't know much about conversion therapy. And so I recently listened to like a spin off of radio lab. And that Jad Abumrad (Radiolab) I can't say his name. But everybody that listens to podcasts knows who NPR is. So they did like a partnership or a mini-series with a different I think, I think it's called seen or Unseen or something like that. And it talks a lot about conversion therapy. And it has a guy that I guess really started like he was like one of the founding kind of people that was trying to make people change, who now happens to be in Texas. I think he's a blacksmith, and he's been married to his husband for like 15 years.

And he said a lot of things in there. But I feel like I still don't know what conversion therapy even means, outside of like behavior modification. So what does that look like for people listening? And the reason I ask is it's really easy for you know, relatively model of what we think of, you know, “man married to one woman” with a family. I haven't had to put my head in the ostrich sand to know anything about that because it's just never really been in my channel until recently or in my lane until recently.

You know, I started reading like Brandan Robertson and doing this podcast has made people ask me a lot of weird questions, of which I realize I'm unprepared to answer, and that's definitely on the list. What does that even look like?

Darren Calhoun 19:40

Yeah, conversion therapy is a very large umbrella.

It's very popular because of movies like Boy Erased and other movies that are talking about it now. But it's the practice where, either by traditional therapy methods like counseling or group counseling or something like that, where you are doing whatever these practices are for the sake of your sexual orientation changing from something other than heterosexual to heterosexual. There's also the informal practices, which is more of what I was a part of, where, by means of prayer by means of fasting by means of some spiritual discipline, that you would be healed or become heterosexual. The program addict, the therapy route, tends to have more of a name to it. Whereas when you just go to your pastor and say you're struggling, it doesn't necessarily get the name conversion therapy. But it does come with the same promise that if you do this, then you'll be pleasing to God.

And the challenge with it is that like in the United States, there's a very long history of different practices, even performed by our government, such as electroshock therapy, such as vomit therapy. Where because the US government felt that this was a horrible thing to exist, they subjected people in hospitals and medical labs, to these kind of treatments that were supposed to associate your same sex desires with pain or with repulsion. And so you'd be locked in a room for 24 hours, given something to make you vomit, while they're showing you gay pornography.

And that was supposed to change your your mind about this attraction. In less intense ways churches will do things like have a camp where you're around very hyper-macho men and they're telling you “swing the ball” “walk like this” “talk like this”. Even my pastor at one point had preached a sermon. Like, well, don't come to me if your voice is high, you got to put some bass in your voice.

Seth Price 22:05

Yeah, because that's something you can control. (sarcasm)

Darren Calhoun 22:09

Right! And clearly, if my voice had a lower register, then I'd be happily heterosexual.

Seth Price 22:13

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Maybe if mine was slightly higher, I’d have had more hair like it is something I can control? Absolutely. That is disheartening. So they didn't go into the detail on that on that other show that I was listening to, and honestly didn't google it because I was afraid of what I'd see. And then I watched I watched the show called At The End of The Day, based on a recommendation of a friend the other day, I don't know if you’ve watch that movie or not.

Darren Calhoun 22:42

I haven’t.

Seth Price 22:44

Oh, man, it is…trying to find the best way to describe it. So I'm pretty sure everything is like hypothetical. So let's just pretend and I'll pick on my alumni, on my university, because I paid for that, right. So Liberty University wants to buy the place across the way and the problem is, it was willed by Darren to be a sanctuary to this support group. Now the support group happens to be an LGBTQ support group where people can come and be open and be like, guys, I just don't feel right. Like, to make people feel welcome, like I argued to make people do church just in a different building. And Liberty University wants to buy the building, but they can't unless this other organization can't come up with the money.

And so they basically hire a dude to go in and just be in there and try to sabotage the efforts. And it's a moving movie. I actually just watched it not knowing what it was going to be about. And then at the end, I just sat there as I just didn't even know what to do. They don't talk about gay conversion therapy, but there's a lot of suicide and oppression and bigotry.

I'm curious because you have the distinct I guess privilege is the wrong word but perspective is probably a better word of you know, being ordained and being on both sides, or at least being able to see both sides of where everybody's coming from. Do you feel like a reason that maybe some pastors or churches, push people towards washing my hands of you now you go do the work…is because they're just not trained to deal with that? Like I don't want to give them an excuse. But is, is there some truth to that? And if there is, how do we fix it?

How do we better equip ministers to counsel that way? Because I don't think the minister that I had as a youth would have been equipped to handle that but then I never asked him either.

Darren Calhoun 24:37

Right. I mean, a little part of my story is I spent two years living in the church basement in Chicago and another two years living in an old Sunday school classroom in Indiana. And all of these were direct counsel ,or direct instruction, from a pastor at the time. And these were part of the solution that he was promising. At the end of that four year period, I was ready to move back to Chicago and pursue therapy. Because I felt like I was just hiding from what my struggle was. And when it came down to the day (that) I was supposed to leave, he shows up in Indiana has a one on one meeting with me. And I'm explaining (to) him my rationale, my thought all the prayer that's gone into this. And he says, “Well, I just I just don't want you to go”. And when I said “no, I really feel like God is calling me to leave”. Not leave the church, but just go back to Chicago, your therapy. And this is something that he'd been highly resistant to.

Seth Price 25:42

When you say therapy, you mean conversion therapy or different therapy?

Darren Calhoun 25:44

Um, at that time, I didn't know that conversion therapy was a thing per se. But I did expect that if I went to a Christian therapist that they were going to make me heterosexual. Um, and when it got to that that critical moment he finally just say, “Well, you know, I've never talked to somebody who's struggled with this ‘spirit’” referring to someone being gay, and that he was just praying and hoping something would happen if he had me do all these things. Move to this place, pray these prayers, fasting all these different hours.

And it was it was kind of shocking, kind of devastating. Because it was like it is one thing for you to just not know. It's another thing for you to pretend you know, and to send me through all these life changes, including quitting school, shutting down my business, cutting off friends and family. You know, the laundry list of things that happened. And then you go, “Well, I was just hoping to figure it out as we go”. And having never disclosed that.

And it's one of those things where as pastors, as church leaders, we're on pedestals. People expect us to have answers people look to us and then sometimes we think we're supposed to have all the answers and to be able to point to a scripture or a verse to to respond to everything with the Bible. But the reality is that we don't know it all. And even the Bible says, you know, this might be my King James coming through but we see through a glass darkly, we don't have the whole revelation. And while I'm convinced that our sexual orientation doesn't change there's still a lot of conversation about how do we respond in healthful and faithful ways to our sexual orientation? And that's the part where instead of saying, you know, I don't know, let me ask someone, let me look, let me research. Where we don't.

And so when it comes to the answer that you asked about 15 minutes ago I would say it's really important for pastors and church leaders and parents to be reading books. You know, you mentioned Brandan Robertson, Justin Lee , Matthew Vines, folks who have been writing amazing works on this. And have organizations like the Reformation project like QChristian Fellowship, places where people are coming together specifically and healthfully to talk about this. There's even an organization called ReVoice. That is about Christians who are gay, or same sex attracted, who don't feel that they should pursue that as a relational model. And so they're committing to celibacy. And people, they're just trying to figure out, what does it look like to do this in a healthy way, as opposed to a mandated way or opposed to people responding out of fear or something like that?

So there's a lot out there, but because we won't do a Google search, or because we assume that pastors always right. We really hurt people. And people, especially youth, are homeless in the United States, because as minors their families determined that because they're gay, because they're trans, that they can't live in their house anymore. That's the failure of the church. That's where the church has to stand up.

I don't care what you believe about me being a gay man! I need you to make sure there is not a single gay youth or trans youth on the streets. Right now 40% of the homeless population is LGBTQ youth. That's something the church can do something about.

Seth Price 29:30

That’s a huge number. Yeah, I had no idea. That's a huge number.

I've referenced this in a lot of interviews, or in a lot of episodes. One of the favorite things that anyone said was Sean Palmer from Ecclesia, the church in Houston. He basically said you know the role of the church should be you know you draw like a five mile, three mile, two mile whatever the mile radius is and like these humans that live here there are everybody there what do you need? Your mine. Like you need a house? I got you. You need your lawn mowed? I got you. You can't get to the doctor? I got you. Free and reduced lunch you can't afford it? I've got you.

Like, we've got you.

I don't even care if you come to church. I don't care if you tithe here. I've got you. Like you're my responsibility, which is beautiful if it actually happens. What is the, you said that Eugene Peterson's The Message there's some passage in there that the paraphrase like was impactful for you? So what what is that paraphrase?

Darren Calhoun 30:41

Um, so really the document, the book as a whole, it sat in ways and again, the context was I was in a King James only church. And I personally was reading the NIV because some things that just never went well within the church. And then I'm hearing bad interpretation of Scripture that justifies things like violence and justifies things like, you know, “you can never say anything back to your pastor”. But then I'm reading The Message and it was just very plain language in a church that people literally would slip into the King James English when they were speaking at times. Because it was just so much a part of the culture, especially if they felt that they were prophesying or saying something from the Lord.

And so here it is, the Scripture, just speaking to me. And it's speaking, it's reminding me of things that always were true, are always felt like they resonated in my heart. I mean, like, when I think about it, there were some things in Revelation. One of my favorite Scriptures Revelation, I think it's 12 and 11, or 11 and 12, where he talks about they overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony because they fear not their lives unto death, which is probably the King James translation of it.

But that was the exact opposite of what my pastor had told me. It was like, don't tell your testimony. His words where the devil wants me full of AIDS and then go to heaven with AIDS. Which again, that's not how things work. And clearly God's not afraid of HIV. But he was twisting these things. And the things he was twisting were not life giving, they didn't result in the kind of behavior change that he wanted. But when I found this idea of grace being really sufficient. When I found this idea that that love really does at the end of the book win! It was like, “Oh, wait, wait, wait, we're going about this all wrong. We're, we're approaching this from a place of fear and place a shame”. And the reality is the God’s like “no, I unashamed and without reservation or fear, love you.” And I just kept seeing that over and over in Scripture.

Seth Price 33:03

Yeah. So you do other things now. So I know that you are an activist. I've followed you on Facebook for some time you talk about race quite a bit. You talk about LGBTQ issues. (I've always struggled to say that I think I talked too fast to say individual letters). (laughter from Darren)

And then you also you know, lead worship like I remember reading an article I think it was in was it Time Magazine, which is a big deal. Was it Time

Darren Calhoun 33:32

People

Seth Price 33:34

People; it's a magazine that like if you're on the end cap like it is in every store in America for any length of time? Yeah, it's a big deal.

Darren Calhoun 33:41

And it was the Sexiest Man Alive issue, not that it had anything to do with that, but I can say that for the rest of my life.

Seth Price 33:46

I would just pick up that it’s “I'm in the Sexiest Man Alive issue”. And you just leave it at that and people can think like, well, what number was he? What do you think? What do you think? mean like top top 30? Definitely top 30!

Darren Calhoun 34:05

Right! Exactly! (laughter)

Seth Price 34:08

I didn't know that it was that one…it's not the Blake one though, right? That's not the Blake.

Darren Calhoun 34:11

It is the Idris Elba one which I also am very happy about.

Seth Price 34:15

Well Idris Elba is a beautiful man.

Darren Calhoun 34:17

Exactly!

Seth Price 34:21

Dude looks good. Like I wish I looked as good as he did. But I don't think it's the way he looks. I just think it's the way that he comes off like he sits I looked at the camera like, can you just take the…just take the picture? I got crap to do! Like there's something about the confidence like I just have things to do. If I could just if I can just go home please that would be awesome. That confidence I think is what's attractive not necessarily the looks so they don't they don't hurt they should make him James Bond. We're on a tangent. (laughter)

So now you now you you lead worship, you write music. I feel like I read that you write liturgy but I could be wrong on that. How has all of that past you know, shaped the way that you do church now? Because you from I understand like you lead worship weekly. And there's something distinctly holy, at least for me, you know when I'm leading worship, and I honestly don't even hear the monitor anymore. Like, I don't hear the people. I don't even really hear the music anymore. Like there's something else there. And that's hard to describe to someone that's never led corporate worship. But I have to think that you know what I'm talking about, like, it doesn't happen every week. It's actually rare. But when it happens, it's beautiful.

So how does all of that past kind of fit into what you do now? Like, and how does it shape what you do now?

Darren Calhoun 35:35

Yeah, so I've always got backstories. So when I was living in Indiana in the place in my life, where I felt the most useless and helpless. The leader set me down from leading Sunday school and leading a dance team and singing on the praise team and balancing the churches books even I don't know anything about finances now. They sat me down from all that. And I felt like a complete failure. And I specifically felt like I'm not useful to God because I can't do the things that I'm good at. Because I've messed up and I'm so horrible because I'm attracted to the same gender. Um, it was in that place of being asked to do nothing that God kind of prompted in me. It was like if you were quadriplegic, and you only have the ability to blink your eyes, that God was saying to me, I still would love that praise from you. That it isn't about how you express it isn't about how big or how, “important” it is in church. But it was like, I just desire to just receive and to be in connection with you, and that whatever you have is important to me.

And so that was transformational for me! I felt like okay, I might be shamed. I might be counted out by my church leaders, but God still desires me, God still is welcoming my praise. And so that actually ended up leading me eventually starting another dance team in Indiana and starting and sing with pricing there but with a whole different perspective. Where instead of worship, and our corporate singing and musical times, instead of that being about, like having the best and, and performing in a way that's pleasing to the pastor, and pleasing to people, it was just like, now God just really wants to just sing with us and dance with us. And whether that's, you know, by yourself in an empty room, or if that's a roomful of people, that there's something special that happens there and that every single person is absolutely invited, not just the people who sing well, not just people dance well, not just the people who can speak well or pray out loud very well, but that literally everyone has something to contribute and that we build each other up in that.

And so when it comes to 2019, and me being at a church that is fully LGBT inclusive, that is that is actively anti-racist working against the structures that perpetuate racism, I finally get to bring my whole self. And it is such a liberating experience and not have to filter. Like, you know, you do a little intro to a story and not have to filter out parts of it because you're worried about somebody objecting. Where I can speak about the moments where God has shown up for me in profound ways, and invite people who've been counted out for those same kind of experiences, to very boldly declare. Even some of the music that we see sometimes comes from churches that are not affirming that are not very welcoming people like me to be in a leadership position. But when we sing a song, and we take it back, we reclaim it. There's something very, very, very powerful about the same words that were used to condemn us and to tell us we weren't good enough to tell us that God has counted us out that we can take those words back and celebrate God with them. It's a form of resistance.

And it is so amazing just to be able to sing words of life. Sometimes Christian music can be so abstract and just so out there, that it could be talking about anything you just never know. But to take some of that and pull it down and to say you are for us who can be against us? Like us LGBTQ people, us people color, us gender expansive folks like us. Who can be against us? Not the current presidential administration. Not the person at your job who's against you. Not your family who said that you were worthless. Who can be against us?

Like that is a reason to declare praise to God. Not just because the mountains and the hills and valleys moved. I love mountains and hills and valleys. But I'm in some stuff right now! And I need something that I can respond to.

Seth Price 40:17

Yeah, so two questions on that. A: so I go to a Baptist Church, and by proxy, that means that I cannot dance. (laughter) And so if I can't dance, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I'm not disqualified correct?

Darren Calhoun 40:33

You are not disqualified!

Seth Price 40:35

Perfect, because my dancing is effectively swaying to slow music. And maybe dip every once in a while.

Darren Calhoun 40:45

I will sway way with you.

Seth Price 40:46

Yeah. And then I'm curious. So that last section there where you were quoting that sounds like a Chris Tomlin song to me. And so I'm assuming that that's what you're reclaiming. But I'd like to kind of give that perspective. Because you're right like the music on Caleb Spirit FM are way FM or just turn the radio past 92.3 going towards the 80s, and that's going to be your Christian block there. Regardless of the city that you live in, I think at least anywhere anytime I travel if you want to listen to “positive and encouraging”, that's where it is. Um, is that how it is in Chicago those lower ends (of the dial)?

Darren Calhoun 41:21

I have gotta say at this point I do not listen to the radio I curate all my own little playlists on Spotify.

Seth Price 41:25

I'm in the same boat. But if you turn it on, that's where it is. Like if I need something, if I need something that is not Drake, you know, or top 40 on repeat, it's that. wWhich is just a different top 40 but you're right a lot of those songs don't mean anything. And the ones that do are not on the radio. Like recently like I've been listening to an album by Andy Squyres. I don't know if you're familiar with him or not. Like his last album like the song deals with loss and like every lyric in it is intentional and you won't hear any of that. But there's so much searching for God so much welcoming as he's hearing and seeing new things, so much brokenness and so much healing all at the same time. Or like William Matthews like that Kosmos album is like the whole first half is just full of darkness and hatefulness and not fitting in, and then literally has a song called The Gray. Like, I'm just literally lukewarm why I don't even know where I fit in anymore all the way to, oh, it doesn't matter. Like what you were talking about, like, I'm accepted. I'm wholly loved. It's just beautiful.

It's more beautiful than any, nothing against Passion or Mercymes’ version of, you know, maroon five, the Christian version of MaroonV nothing against that. It's just an insight.

Darren Calhoun 42:43

That is an insight! I'm gonna note that!

Seth Price 42:45

I don't know if that's the right analogy, but that's what I feel like like. Not Songs About Jane MaroonV, because that was good (but) everything since then. I don't know if you've heard Songs About Jane, but that album is good. Really good!

Anyway, so how does that then…so for corporate worship, that makes sense. But how do you like what made you want to do music with The Many because that music has a very like definite intentionality to it? Like when I load up that album, I'm gonna put it this way. Like it's not an album that if I want to sit down and just like I'm not going to do the dishes to The Many’s album. Like I'm going to listen with intentionality. And so what's kind of that mission there and its purpose?

Darren Calhoun 43:27

Yeah, and it's the same thing we're Lenora, who writes many of our our lyrics, she did not like being in spaces where it was all “happy clappy” is a phrase Some people like to use, but where it was all these very assured and confident songs? And she was like, but I don't feel assured and confident.

For me, I remember struggling with the idea. I remember there was a Chris Rice song called Clumsy and

I get so clumsy. I get so foolish.

Seth Price 44:10

Oh yeah!

Darren Calhoun 44:12

I remember during my campus ministry days, like when people would be really, really struggling and really growing through, and we were in a church and in a community that was always good, I'm happy. It doesn't matter that my kid just died (cause) I'm blessed. Like we were that kind of church.

But I would like have people alone in my car and then I just I just put the song on and just sit in silence and then they'd be crying. And it was just like, I had to do the secret ministry because it was like, Yeah, I get it. You feel that! And this is something we'd never do in our church. I can't even fully acknowledge that I listen to music like this.

But we need songs that let us lament. We need songs that let us feel the hard stuff. Because it's real, and it's not absent from the Bible we just never ever, ever, ever dig into it because we bought into the idea that we need to look perfect. And that perfection is is having it together when the reality is perfection is actually just being mature about whatever it is that we're going through.

Seth Price 45:21

I forget who it was someone that I interviewed I think it's Professor Soong-Chan Rah actually said like the 60 something percent 70 something percent of the whole Bible is lament. But we just don't really preach on any of that. Like we only we can only talk about the triumph and you know, my God is powerful. My God is this…my God is that. But we're not gonna talk about any of the other stuff because I need you to leave feeling energized so you can go not tip your waiters and then come back next week and tithe again. What are some of those songs then that you've reclaimed? Like that if people heard it? They're like, Oh, I wouldn't have thought about the song from that mindset.

Darren Calhoun 45:58

Yeah, a big one. And again, not that the original authors had malintent…Break Every Chain. That one I think Will Regan originally did it Tasha Cobbs has covered it and Tasha Cobbs is publicly anti gay. I’m just putting that out there. That song is often about oh, you know, you gotta break that spirit of of homosexuality, you got to break it. That's what she literally says and one of her recordings, a live recording of that song.

And you get that message over and over again that these are chains and these are bondages. And for me, that's become a justice song. That's become a song where at the end of several of the Reformation Projects gatherings that we've sung. That we as reformers are going out to break the chains of bondage against LGBTQ people in the world. And we've done it during communion. So to add another layer to it, to watch people who because of their gender expression, or because of who they were loving in a healthy way, we're told that they could not ever have communion if they could not partake in the communion supper. To see them holding up the elements and blessing it for our congregation, to see them going out and giving communion, while we're singing Break Every Chain. Like we're very literally breaking the history of how they've been experiencing church.

And so all of a sudden, it's not about like these, these very vague, “oh, whatever bad thing”. No, this is very specific, and it's going to be ours. It's going to be for us, it is going to be for our liberation.

Because again, that's where I get this idea that some of what we do in worship is a resistance effort. Like we're all made in the image and likeness of God who is a creator who has been pursuing relationship with all of us since the beginning and has not ever stopped doing so. But then we get told that God is all these very limited things. That God is very distant. Even some of our Western ideas about God that God is always up. Whereas if you look in an African and South American cultures, God is down and present in the ground. That changes how we read when God says to Moses, take off your shoes, this is holy ground. Instead of it being like all your shoes are dirty, don't you know it's like no, get in this get get your feet in and get dirty in it. Let it like, completely overtake you! Because you're in the presence and the presence is in the ground. So get the barriers out of the way. It's that kind of thing that I think we have to reclaim, that we have to have to change.

Seth Price 49:02

I want to leech off of that reclaim. So when I hear reclaim, it's an aggressive verb. So, maybe intentionally aggressive, although I don't think you're using it aggressively, like but just the verb or or resist is also an aggressive. Or like, I'm reminded of like, just movies that you see if you know, this person's resisting arrest, which usually isn't passive. You hope that it is, but usually it isn't. Or we're resisting oppression, or you know, like, so how do you be it LGBTQ, you know, resisting a world that seems to be structured, at least currently in America, to not be welcoming or you know, for immigration resist that? Or for you know, racist oppression resist that? How do you do so teetering that line between aggressiveness? Because if you get too aggressive, everyone that might have almost wanted to agree with you is gonna quickly shut the doors.

And so I hadn't planned that question. But as I hear you saying the word resist, like, in the back of my mind, I'm like, “Well, how would I do that”? Like, how do I do that? Because usually when you get aggressive, people just get defensive. And then we stop. We're not talking anymore we're just arguing here. So how would you advise people to do that?

Darren Calhoun 50:21

Yeah. So there's a there's a really interesting thing, especially I'll say in US culture where the activity of the people who are at the margins: women, people of color, immigrants, so forth, the activity is instantly perceived as aggressive. There's studies that have shown that black 12 year olds are not seen or I think like 10 to 12. They specifically compared them in reactions to them to white children. And they found that the black children were not seen as children, they weren't seen as safe, as innocent. Like, all these kind of things, they were perceived as adults, and they were perceived as aggressive. They didn't have to do anything, just their image, invoked this idea.

Seth Price 51:16

So 10, my son's 10. So set him in the desk and then put, you know, a person of a different race next to him and they would just look at the two and be like, he's white. He's passive. He's safe. This person here, he's just not. Like, is that which I'm out or they're like….

Darren Calhoun 51:31

Yes. It’s an implicit bias.

We've unconsciously associated darkness, specifically people who would be raced as black, we've associated that with aggression. And as we look at the different demographics, and so forth, it looks a little bit different. But there is an implicit association that when we do stuff it is considered aggression.

So like a black woman speaking up for herself about the way she's being discriminated against. She's making noise. She's rocking the boat. But in the same scenario a white man speaking up about what he doesn't have, well, he's just telling the truth. He's just defending himself. He's being a good man. Those kinds of scenarios play out over and over and over again.

And so I name that to say that aggression has actually been weaponized against people of color often. That we are literally, very literally, have been subject to thousands of years of abuse and torment and, and disenfranchisement. And then when we just name it, it's “well why are you bringing race into everything”? And it’s like I’m just describing our history. I haven’t even assigned value to it.

So when you name it it gets treated that way. So the flip side of it is, churches also taught us especially in the US, especially if we are white, especially if we're male, church has taught us that things should be comfortable. That the way that we should exist in the world is that we shouldn't really have to think about or wrestle with things. And so our theology, our ways of interpreting Scripture, our ways that we structure our society, even the neighborhoods that we live in, are all designed for comfort of a particular group of folks. And so, even if that means that I as somebody who isn't centered in that in some ways, because I'm still male, so I get male privilege. But even if that means I have to constantly live in discomfort, it's okay. Because, you know, you just got to take that one on the shoulder check or take it on the chin.

But if I mentioned that I experienced something and it makes you uncomfortable, then I'm back to being a problem. Even though it was something done to me and so forth. That you know, another parallel that is, right now we're seeing over and over again, that white people have been calling the police on black people for doing things like having a barbecue, or going to the store, or taking a nap. All things that someone felt it was so aggressive that they needed to call for help, that they needed to call the authorities. That someone needed to control it.

And so what what I'm getting at is the idea that you can look it up as a researcher who's published about right White Fragility, that this uber comfort, and it's not to say no one can ever be at ease, but this heightened or extreme level of comfort has created this thing where we're not used to people disagreeing. We're not used to people speaking up in ways that kind of go against the status status quo. And so it will be perceived as aggressive and many people of color, many LGBTQ people, have advanced degrees metaphorically speaking and how to be super nice to people who are being horrible to them.

But we don't get that kind of consideration in return. And often we have to fend for ourselves as many people like onslaught us with all kinds of things. And then they go, “well, you're not saying it nice enough and so forth!” So it's a lot to unpack.

Seth Price 55:24

Yeah. Let's do part two. Let’s do that…we’ll do part two.

So there's a lot more there; you're right. Like we could probably talk for another few hours about that. And that's part of the danger of unscripted podcasting, like I like to do. Where would you point people to, Darren, as we wrap this up, like, how do they connect with you? How do they maybe connect with some resources that they're struggling with LGBTQ type of thing, or if they want to find a church that is, you know, they can just show up and maybe just worship God?

And I don't know what that looks like outside of you know, protestant church. So I don't know if there are other resources for other faiths or not. Actually now I'm kind of disappointed that I haven't given that more thought until just now. So if you know that, we'll plug that too and then I'll go to it. And then how do they just connect with you? You know, how do they get ahold of your music? You know with intention there.

Darren Calhoun 56:19

Yeah.

So the easiest way to connect with me would be to visit my website, DarrenCalhoun.com And I'm sure there'll be a link somewhere to make that spelling easy for you. I'm also on lots of social media, with the handle HeyDarren. I'm pretty social. I like Twitter and Facebook, especially for me, follow me wherever.

When it comes to resources. I've already mentioned organizations like the Reformation Project, or Q Christian Fellowship. But there's also like in this search to figure out where's the church that you can show up not get a booby trap. When it comes to you being honest about your your gender identity or being honest about who you are as a as a person who's not heterosexual. There is a great resource called church clarity. Church clarity is just doing this work to ask churches, some simple questions. Will you perform same sex wedding? Will you hire women on staff? Would you hire gay person on staff? And we just think that that's something that churches should be clear about? Yes or no. No bias to either side.

Seth Price 57:37

So it's just like a grid. Like we don't care what your answer is. Just what is it! Cool like a census. Basically, how many people live here? Fantastic. Moving on.

Yeah, that's good. That's good. But you're right. Yes, I will link to all those. If you go back to whatever you listen to the song and scroll down to the bottom and the middle of the guest bio section there. All the links are about to be blue. But if you're here, you know how the internet works for the most part, so.

Darren, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it man. Sorry, that took so long to connect. But I look forward to doing it again, at some point in the future, so appreciate it.

Darren Calhoun 58:10

Absolutely Seth; it was good to talk to you.

Seth Price 58:17

It's not acceptable for people to come and sit down and be afraid to worship and actually be who they are. It's not acceptable for us to ever make people feel that way. And I don't just mean LGBTQ. I don't just mean gender issues, I just mean period. Like it is not acceptable for us to treat people in a manner that they feel unwelcome at a place that they're supposed to feel the safest. And as a church, as a people, and I mean, capital C Church, we have got to do better of leading this not reversing course. We've got to do better of engaging in the cultural context of Scripture. We've got to do better of finding a heart that looks more like love and less like dogmatic rhetoric. And I know that it's hard. And I know that you may lose friends. And I know that you may stop talking to people that you’ve talk to your whole life. But I also know that we're called to love people; and so we have to.

The music that you heard featured today is in part written and or sung by Darren and a band that he's part of called The Many. And so you will find links to their music in the show notes as well as everywhere else; you can get in touch with Darren. Remember to rate and review the show on iTunes and I will talk to you next week.

I hope you have a blessed week.