Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Sarah 0:09

It's an amazing tradition (in) that we have a lot of theological humility as Jews, you know, there is no dogma, or creed or statement about what God is, or there's really just no specific dogma or statement around God because I think the feel the or talking about is just so big and so vast and so beyond the capacity of our tiny little human hearts and brains to articulate, and once you start trying to define God, or describe God or make images of God, you're kind of almost committing idolatry, right? You're you're kind of taking this this vast, infinite thing that's so boundlessly big and you're shrinking it to the size of your human comprehension. And there's a real danger in that.

Seth Price 0:54

We did it again. Welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for downloading! We made it to May. Right. We made it to May. That's exciting.

I have teased for many months out of the year. I think that I wanted to talk to people of other faiths. And I've talked with people, tertiarily, and talked around other concepts of other faiths over the past few years. But this conversation today that I had with Sarah Hurwitz, and I love that so I've really, I don't, yeah, I really loved this conversation.

Before we get into that, I wanted to ask you if you would help me out! One of the best ways that you can help new ears find, locate, whatever word you want to say the show is just to read and review the show. And if you feel led, like the newest patron Thom Thompson, thank you so much to you, Thom, support the show over at patreon.com Patreon is the gasoline in the engine or whatever analogy you want to use that makes this show be a show. And I literally couldn't do it without them. Absolutely unable to do it without them. And so I'm so thankful for that. So review the show, tell your friends and then if you got two bucks, three bucks, think about it.

So, today this conversation we cover a lot of ground. We talk a lot about Judaism we talk about God. And Sarah has by far one of my favorite answers to the when I say the word when you say the word God, what do you mean? it blew me away. Literally when I was editing this episode, I got chills from it. had to stop and really think about it. And I love that. I love that question. And I love I love the answers that are coming from that. And so we talk a bit about her book Here All Along, which actually came out I believe last year. It's fantastic. I think I'm considering sending it out in June. But I don't know, I haven't I made my mind up yet so. But what that book is, is to book about finding meaning, and a deeper connection to life and to God through Judaism and through the practices of faith. And Sarah story is beautiful. This book is fantastic. And the stories that Sarah weaves and some of the really deep wisdom that is in the book is so good. Let's do it. There's no reason to delay anymore, right. Let's roll the tape.

Seth Price 3:56

Sarah Hurwitz, welcome to the show. I'm excited you're here and I'm thankful for your patience. last weekend, so apologies again for that, but welcome.

Sarah 4:03

Not a problem at all. And I am thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me

Seth Price 4:09

The question I asked every time and I think a lot of people ask this question, but I tend to ask it a slightly different way. When you say, “Hey, I'm Sarah and this is what makes me me”, like, what are those pivotal points as you think back over the course of your life that you're like, yeah, this is actually the things that made me what I am today, not what you do today is easily Googleable. So let's not do that. But what are some of those things that kind of make you you?

Sarah 4:30

Yeah, I mean I think dropping out of Hebrew school in sixth grade was something that kind of has made me me; it kind of got me and my family in many ways, kind of disconnected from Judaism, which turns out to be kind of important later on. So I think that's a big one.

I think interning in Washington DC, in the Senate (and) in the White House, when I was in college, was a big thing that made me realize how much I wanted to work in government and politics. I think it just showed me the power of what government can do when it is run by people who are decent and humane and care about the best interests of the American people. That seems quaint now, but that was a big thing at one point.

And then I just think that was a really big thing for me and it made me who I am. I think also, you know, it's funny, I think meeting this guy named Josh Gottheimer, who's now a Congressman from New Jersey, but was one of my law school classmates, that was a really big moment for me. I went to law school after basically failing as a speechwriter. Early on in my career. In my early 20s. I was a speechwriter for a US Senator Tom Harkin from Iowa. I just couldn't get this voice didn't know how to write decided to go to law school, never write speeches again. And I met Josh, who had been a writer previously for President Clinton and he actually really believed in me and he was like, No, you can do this and he taught me how to write we freelance together we work on bunch of campaigns, he really helped me get a bunch of political jobs that were very important to me.

And he kind of he's always believed in my ability to be a good speechwriter. And so I think that was a big moment. Meeting Michelle Obama in the 2008 Obama campaign was a big moment, you know. I was there to write for him but meeting her, I worked with her on a speech and that made just a huge impression on me.

And then I think, years later, when I was 36 years old, breaking up with this guy I was dating and being lonely and having time on my hands, and then winding up just randomly taking an Intro to Judaism class to fill time that was a huge moment. Because I realized, wait a second, wait a second. There's a whole bunch of wisdom and insight and depth here that I had no idea about my own tradition. So that was a really transformative moment to me, that led me to a religious journey of faith.

Seth Price 6:51

I do want to ask you a bit because I don't think I've ever spoken with a speech writer, although I guess pastors write speeches and I talked to a lot of pastors, so why not

Sarah 6:59

A very similar skill.

Seth Price 7:00

Do you call yourself a speechwriter or because you went to law school, so you like you pass the bar and everything or no?

Sarah 7:07

I did pass the bar. I haven't practiced law in probably about 12 years. So I would I would not hire me to be a lawyer for anyone in any situation. So I consider myself a writer, a speechwriter, I am technically a lawyer, but I don't practice.

Seth Price 7:21

Okay. And then there's a section in the beginning of the book, I think it's actually in the intro where you're like, yeah, I write for the President however, I really like to write for the president's wife. Like, is that something that's communicated to the president? Where he's like, “Really? Okay.” Or is it just one of the things was like, “Oh, she's over there now. It's fine.”

Like how does that mechanically work because I read it I kept playing it through in my mind as I ran around outside, I was like, I can see myself going. I also like my wife. You chose well, like, how does that work?

Sarah 7:50

(laughter) Yeah, well, it's funny because I I joined the Obama campaign in 2008 to work for him and I was writing for him full time. But I wrote Mrs. Obama's Democratic National Convention speech in 2008, so I got to know her then. But I went to my house right for him. But I still would help help her out just sort of on the side because I just I liked her. I love working with her. And you know, after a year and a half, two years, I realized that I was just more at home in her voice. You know, I like the issues she was talking about better, I felt more comfortable writing for her. And so I told my then boss, Jon Favreau, who now is one of the hosts of Pod Save America. I told him I thought, I want to move over and write full time for the First Lady, which I think she was a little taken aback by and he's a really great guy and super supportive. I think the President was maybe a little bit surprised. But I think like you said, I think he loves his wife very much and wants her to be happy and the fact that she was happy with me as her speechwriter, you know, that made him happy. So I think, you know, it kind of worked out for everyone. It was kind of like a win win.

Seth Price 8:49

That was where I kept coming back to the kept going back to how can I get mad at anybody pick my wife, I also pick my wife, so great. Do you miss it? Do you miss being in the White House and all of that? Good? I don't know that I'll call it goodness, all of that madness. Do you miss?

Sarah 9:07

Yeah you know, I miss my colleagues very much. Like the Obama White House was like a family. These people are just they're, I mean, they're brilliant. They're talented. They're also just some of the most public minded, decent, loving, supportive people I've ever met. I could pick up the phone and call anyone in that White House and say, can you help me with something? And they would say no matter what they'd say, How can I help? What do you need? It was just that kind of place. So I missed I miss my friends. I miss going to get coffee with them in the afternoons I just miss, like bouncing ideas off of them. You'll all the speech writers shared office suites, we were always in and out of each other's offices. We would like yell for each other through the doors. I really just that miss that community. I don't really miss speech writing, actually. I don't miss the kind of daily grind of it. It was just a constant. You're just constantly writing on command constantly writing on deadline and you know, I was sort of always on alert, like, you're always kind of thinking about a speech, in a speech, worrying about the details of his speech, you know, we were so concerned about accuracy, the Obama’s would have found it unbearable to, even if it was inadvertently, to have an inaccurate statement of speech or to say something that wasn't true. I mean, that just was the worst thing you could do. So there was a lot of anxiety with the speech writers around fact checking and making sure things were right. So that was stressful.

I don't miss, again it sounds quaint, but you know, I don't miss that. I do miss my colleagues, I miss the Obamas a lot. You know writing for Mrs. Obama you know, you don't script someone like Michelle Obama. Okay let's be very clear. This is a woman who knows who she is. She always knows what she wants to say. So what you do when you write for someone like that is you channel her right to sit down with her and say, “What do you want to say” and she would just dictate all this great language, and I would type it up verbatim and then I would read that into a draft for her. You're not writing alone you’re writing with a partner. So when I switched back to my own life and writing for myself in my own voice, you know, writing a book, it was like kind of lonely, and actually a little bit challenging. So I missed that writing partner as well.

Seth Price 11:12

So the book that you wrote that I'm assuming after the blazing op-ed that you underplayed earlier, I'm sure it's amazing. That is called Here All Along. I didn't write that. I think that's what it's called. Right? Yes. Yes, because I'll be honest, this is the version of your book that I have like, it's literally not the bound version of the book. So I don't know where the title is mixed and all of that paper. I also thought I'd be quaint. I'm going to use your word and save paper. And so I printed it duplex. But the problem is page one is on one side and page 106 is on the other. So it is really like because I think it intended to be pressed together. But either way I made it work. I made it work. So here all along. What is that? Who's here all along? Where were you like, what are you intending to say with that metaphor? I don't know if that actually is a metaphor but that's what I'm gonna do?

Sarah 12:01

Yeah, no, it's actually not even a metaphor. It's pretty straight up explaining my Jewish journey, which was it realizing at the age of 36, that this tremendous tradition that is my birthright had been here all along, and I know nothing about it. You know, I think, growing up my family, we went to our synagogue twice a year for the major holidays, we had a Passover Seder at one of the other major holidays, we had a Hanukkah party, but I just didn't know much about Jewish ethics or Jewish spirituality.

You know, when you're a kid, you don't really understand the very deep wisdom and insight behind these ancient traditions, these ancient holidays and lifecycle rituals. So I always just thought, “Oh, I'm culturally Jewish. I'm Jewish by my heritage, but I'm not. I'm not like, I don't want to do Judaism. It's boring”. And I think learning about Judaism as an adult, I realized, Wow, there is this profound tradition with so much wisdom about how to be a good person, how to lead a worthy life, how to find adult, serious, spiritual connection. I've been here all along and I had no idea.

Seth Price 13:04

What are some of those misconceptions that you had you think when you were younger that as you reflect back on, you're like, Oh, yeah, I missed the boat? Like I know, I had quite a few, even through college misconceptions of Christianity where I'm like, shy was just absolutely lied to. As I've read Scripture myself, like I was just lied to, what are some of those for you?

Sarah 13:23

Yeah. So, you know, I think that one thing that I really, you know, growing up is like our, you know, Jewish liturgy it's very complex and rich and layered and ancient. It's, you know, it's the Jewish prayer book, which is called the Siddur. It's been developed over many, many centuries. It has prayers from like, 2000 years ago, and 1500 years ago, and 1000 years ago, and if you don't have a fair amount of education, it's easy not to understand that depth.

And instead it just looks like kind of a bunch of very repetitive kind of praise of God who's kind of a man in the sky who rewards you when you're good and punishes you when you're bad. You know, I had that impression that okay the Jewish God is a being in this guy controls everything and rewards and punishes us as we deserve and I just didn't buy that age 11 I don't buy that now, you know i just i see too much evidence to the contrary every day we're bad people are rewarded and good people are punished and I find that you go down very unimpressive theological road really quickly, where it's like okay, well what about the Holocaust? Oh, God didn't perpetrate the Holocaust people did. Okay, so what does this all powerful God do all day. Well, that's, it's like, okay, guys like these, this is not hanging together. And I, you know, that's, I thought, well, if that's the Jewish God, then that's not for me.

That's actually not the Jewish God.

Right like Judaism is an amazing tradition in that we have a lot of theological humility as Jews, you know, there is no dogma or creed or statement about what God is or there's really just no specific dogma or statement around God because I think we feel the or talking about is just so Big and so vast and so beyond the capacity of our tiny little human hearts, and brains, to articulate, and once you start trying to define God or describe God or make images of God, you're kind of almost committing idolatry, right?

You're kind of taking this this vast, infinite, thing that's so boundlessly big and you're making it, shrinking into the size of your human comprehension. And there's a real danger in that, right? You see people doing that every day where they're like, God wants this and God hates that. And it's like, Okay, wait a second, is that God or is that you? So I think realizing that there was this immense richness and complexity, you know, there are Jewish thinkers who say that “God is everything”

Your god I'm God, the idea that there's a barrier between us that's that's not true. You're the homeless man I passed on the street that man is God, right that that man is a manifestation of the divine right that's that's a Jewish idea not and by the way, many of these ideas are in other traditions as well. I'm not none of what I'm saying is like only in Judaism. Many traditions have similar conceptions, their Jewish thinkers who say that God is what happens In deep relation between two people when they are just fully contemplating each other's humanity, what arises between them is God, there's a Jewish thinker who says God is the process by which we become our highest and truest selves. So I think realizing that there was this complexity and this richness and this depth around spirituality that was like, a huge misconception that was blown for me and I thought, wow, there's a lot here for me.

Seth Price 16:24

And even so I'm gonna lean on some of the Scripture that I read more often but you know, when you talk about God is just when two people get together, it's whatever happens when those two so there's, you know, when two or more together, here I am, just a bunch of things like and so I hear you saying all of that. What I feel like some people might say is, well, I didn't know that's what Judaism was, because it sounds a bit new agey.

You know, yeah, we're all God. Panentheism or pantheism, or whatever the word is. So how would you delineate or differentiate between those two of Okay, well, you said a lot there, Sarah, and nothing's really concrete. to latch on to so how would you…

Sarah 17:03

Yeah, like what what is your surpassing like, what is the Jewish God? Like, give me a definition right?

Seth Price 17:07

Well at the end, I'm gonna ask you what you think God is, but I can table that for now because I've been asking that I'm asked that to 52 people this year, so it's been fun.

Sarah 17:16

Oh, that's great. So you know, here's the thing. There's a an old joke that like two Jews three opinions, right? Like, you know there are many in in Judaism, you'll find that there are Jewish thinkers throughout the ages, who have many different conceptions of God. I mean, even looking at the Bible, you know, looking at the Torah, which is what you refer to as the Old Testament that's not we call it, the Tanakh, which is it doesn't matter but we call it the Tanakh; and the first five books of that are the Torah. That is our key holy book. You know, you see different conceptions of God in there.

There's a very kind of serious concern God, there's a loving God, there's a God that almost seems to have a body, there's a God that's beyond having a body. There isn't some clear image of God in there. And then we had ancient rabbis who, for basically the years 0 to 600 or so were reimagining/reinterpreting the Torah. For Jews today, I always think it's interesting that some Christians think that Jews live by the actual original version of the Bible. That's insane, right‽ This is a 2500 year old document, we spent 2500 years reinterpreting it just like we don't live by the original version of the US Constitution. Thank God. We amended it to get rid of slavery and let women vote. We've done something similar with our Torah and we, you know, it says “An eye for an eye” rabbis 2000 years ago said no, no, no. They mean, if you put out someone's eye you have to compensate them monetarily.

Well, that's not what the Torah says that's how they reinterpret it right. So you see that with ideas around God as well, like those ancient rabbis they had many conceptions of God. You have Maimonides who was a great Jewish medieval thinker who has a conception of God as “totally transcendent”, etc, etc.

So the question is okay, well then what's the Jewish view? There are many Jewish views of God but you know, there is a body of Jewish law that Jews follow, you know, some more strictly (and) some less strictly, but there was a body of Jewish law that is the same body of Jewish law that you're going to find anywhere in the world that comes from our sacred texts, and people follow that with their idea of God. So there are some Jews who have a very traditional idea of God that God does reward and punishes you based on whether you follow those rules, that is kind of a traditional conception. There are others who say like, I follow these rules because I believe that I'm connected to all human life and these rules are a good way for me to embody that wealth and good treatment of other human beings so you can have different conceptions of the Divine.

And I bet this is true, I'm guessing it's true in Christianity, too, ou probably have a lot of…I once read a rabbi who said, you know, people have different relationships with me, depending on how they see me. I am a brother, I'm a father, I am a board member. I'm a teacher, I'm a customer. It's like, well, then couldn't that be true for God as well that people see God in different ways, depending on how they relate to God?

Seth Price 20:02

I hadn't thought about that. But I do like, I like that a lot. I'm actually…I'll probably wrestle with that as I can send you ironing the clothes that I talked about earlier? Because I definitely didn't finish it. It's too many sets of clothing. No, I think Christians do do that I often get called heretical because I'm not willing to make my Bible God, if that makes sense? There's not I'm not a big fan of that…like the God that I worship can’t….I stole this from a friend of mine.

He's like, “you realize like, man made all this like, it's all we made up!” What are you talking about you How can you possibly think that that is God? This just, it's it's not possible. Yeah. But you'll have and this sounds very similar, or at least I think similar. You have both sides, you know, people that are extremely literal on “it says this”. And then I'm like, Yeah, but that's somebody's interpretation of somebody’s in interpretation of somebody’s interpretation. I think it's Brueggemann that says, we all read Scripture, any Scripture by the way, (this emphasis mine) not just Abrahamic based religious Scriptures, with whatever our inherent biases are.

Sarah 21:12

Of course, of course! That's absolutely right. I think, you know, one thing that I think is interesting about Judaism is like the core metaphor of Judaism is a really interesting one where it's like, you have these Israelites who are freed from Egypt, these Israelites have been freed from Egypt and this God of the Bible, assembles them at Mount Sinai, and basically offers them a covenant. And says like, okay, here are the laws that I want you all to follow do you accept? And they accept it. It was an agreement, it was actually a partnership, which is a really interesting idea where it's like, Yes, God is the senior partner, God is this all powerful being, but human beings have a lot of agency and responsibility in this partnership.

They're not supposed to be slaves or servants or robots. They're supposed to be partners with God in you know, creating a good and just world. I think that core metaphor of Judaism is a really important one. I want to so you How are you? I don't know what page it's on. I just know that.

Seth Price 22:03

I don’t even remember what page is on, be for those that can see the video, you'll understand why but it doesn't matter. So you wrote in here…there's two things I want to talk about. (There's a bunch of things I want to talk about) laughter.

So there are three inalienable dignities, which I really liked those. I hadn't read those put that way. But I want to come to that. Secondly, and so I'm sure I'm going to say these names wrong. So you talked about and I think it's in chapter 2 rabbis and debate something called a Misha and the… Nope, not gonna fit yet. And then like Misha all the way to Gemara. Yeah. So can you walk me through none of that? I didn't know any of that and I'm showing my ignorance.

Sarah 22:41

I didn't either five years ago, six years ago.

Seth Price 22:43

I found it fascinating. And then I flipped as hard as I basically in the PDF again, alt-f‘d back to the bibliographies because I needed to find more can you break that apart just a bit because I found it fascinating?

Sarah 22:54

Yeah, so we have, you know the Bible for us, we call it the first five books of the Bible. Are the the Torah that's our key holy texts. It's about 2500 years old. And you know that original document. It's ancient writing, it has a lot of animal sacrifices at a large Temple in Jerusalem. Well, the temple was destroyed for the second time by the Romans in the year 70. Suddenly, this this Bible, like you can't live by the same (any)more in terms of you can't make sacrifices anymore, right? The temples gone.

So suddenly, it's like, well, what do we do? Like how do we worship God? We used to do that from animal sacrifices, like many ancient peoples did. And so this group of ancient rabbis back in the year 70, they started reinterpreting the Bible for an era without a temple. So they said, Okay, listen, God doesn't want sacrifices of animals God wants sacrifices of prayers from our mouths. They kind of reimagined the holidays to be celebrated without a temple.

And that original kind of reinterpretation and commentary was the Mishnah. Now, later rabbis in like centuries after that, they took commentary on the Mishnah of called the Gemara . This all together is called the Talmud.

So you have the Mishnah, which is this commentary on Bible. And then the way it's laid out on a page is you have that in the center. And then you have the Gemara around it, which is commentary on the Mishnah. And then around that you have commentary from later rabbis who were commenting on the earlier ones, and so on and so on.

So, Judaism is this kind of constant, you know, effort to continue to reinterpret our very ancient texts to ensure that they are so appropriate in our time. You know, this is why today in 90%, of American Judaism, women can be rabbis. You know, gay people can be rabbis, gay people can get married in all except for Orthodox Judaism, which is again 90% of American Jews.

And the reason for that is that we've continued to understand our ancient texts in light of the progress we've made, just like we've done with our Constitution. The original Constitution literally said that certain people could be property! I mean, like, that is the embodiment of evil, to call people property! That's the most profound distillation of evil. And it took us a really long time to actually make the moral progress to the point where we actually could as a society say, yeah, actually, this is evil. I mean, it's horrifying how long it took. But we did and we amended it. And I think we see a similar similar process and interpretive religion like Judaism, and I'm sure other traditions have something similar, but the one I know about is Judaism.

Seth Price 25:20

How versed are you in other traditions? Because you said you stepped away from Judaism for a while. And I know a lot of people when they step away from a faith, they either step into no faith or they step in and start dabbling into others, like where is that at for you?

Sarah 25:34

So I really didn't engage in any faith, at all, during those that time away. I mean, I just was busy with school and work and life. You know, I did a few Buddhist meditation classes, which was lovely. I learned a little bit about Buddhism, which I found fascinating, but I'm not you I just read a book called God is Not One, which it gives an overview of different faiths making the argument that we're actually quite different from each other. I found it so helpful in just giving a Little bit of an overview of different things. And I, I really want to learn more because I think each of the world's religious tradition offers important moral wisdom for us.

I once heard, I can't remember who said it, but I think it was a rabbi who said that there is a religious ecosystem in the world and each one of the religious traditions kind of offer something important to that ecosystem. And when one is suppressed or dies out, we lose something right, our world becomes less balanced. So I think, you know, I really wish I would really like to learn more about the different traditions.

Seth Price 26:45

So two of my favorite people, one of them is a good friend. So Alexander Shaia, who's just brilliant, I actually think he would like his book as well, but he's steeped in really, really, really early early, early, Church and so like when he does Easter, he tries to do it in a better way, not in the carnival allistic commercial, mystic, imperialistic version that we do now, I think you'd enjoy his book. But he is well as Barbara Brown Taylor, who is two of my favorite writers, I remember Alexander saying once he's like, no, I can learn something from Brahmins and from shamans and from Buddhist and then I can come home and figure out how to find better glory in God and that like a bigger I don't mean glory in the way that people sing about glory. I mean, Glory as the real word.

And then Barbara Brown Taylor said something when I chatted with her a while ago about no I can, I can find truth in meaning in other face like, I don't have a stranglehold on that. It's just when I come home, it's Jesus that I come home to but tomorrow when I go back out, I'm like, Oh, that's beautiful. I'm learning something today.

Sarah 27:51

I feel so passionately the same way. But yes, my home is Judaism. But I love reading Nadia Boltz Weber. I love her writing. I love Father Gregory Doyle, the wonderful priest, who is the one who he gets great at who works with formerly gang affiliated young people out in LA?

Seth Price 28:10

Oh, that is Gregory Boyle.

Sarah 28:13

Yes, yeah, his books are sending in their books. I know their books about the young people he's working with. But I also I view them as books about the divine right, like he, they're very much spiritual books. So I just, I'm so moved by other people's experiences. You're right, like I do come home to Judaism. It's, it's the language I speak. It's the sensibility I bring to the world and that it is different from other traditions. They're all different, but I do think they're getting at similar things.

Seth Price 28:39

I want to be real honest. So as I was reading the book, I kept highlighting just different things that rabbis had said that I found brilliant. And then at the about two thirds of the way through, I realized, why am I highlighting all these? I think I had improper expectations because of my ignorance of Judaism. I don't know what I was expecting, because I haven't read really any whatever the word is, I haven't read those tech outside of, you know, the Torah and whatnot. And I have like my favorite version of I'll call it the Old Testament because that's my language is the one that Robert Altar did because it is so much commentary. It literally is sitting 17 inches from your head, I love it.

Sarah 29:17

Mine is literally also 17” from my head as well. It's great.

Seth Price 29:23

I can't read any other version of the Old Testament. But that one just because I'm like, Yes, this is now I can understand that some people be like, no, this is why is all this here. Why is Exodus 900 pages long? Because it needs to be. So is that version of the Hebrew Bible similar to what you're talking about with Talmud. We're like you're looking at it. And there's just reams of paper after verse one is 17 pages.

Sarah 29:45

It's a similar idea. You know, the Talmud isn't so directly a commentary on the Torah, like it's not like line by line. It's not kind of arranged in the order that the Torah is arranged in. It's actually arranged more by kind of topics of Law. Basically like there's a part on blessings of one on Shabbat when I'm having you there. It's not arranged but a lot of it is understanding the fundamental laws of the Torah kind of, you know, it's like because the thing is, you know, the Torah says things like love the stranger. Okay, well, what, what does that mean? Right? Like, well, or it says, you know, he talks about, you know, giving money to those who are need well, okay, how much? And then how do you do it? And how do you do it in a way that that protects their dignity that doesn't humiliate them, that empowers them, that doesn't make them feel embarrassed? Right?

There's a lot of details that are not quite specified in the Bible. You know, it's a lot of kind of general ideas and then Jews that Okay, wait a second, how do we live these things? Right? How do we actually embody these things? You know, the Torah says on Shabbat, basically don't work. Have a day of rest. Okay, well, what does that mean? I can I can I like, what does it mean just to rest, like, can I just watch Netflix and I go, you know, I go to rock concert? Like, what does it mean? To actually live these values you kind of have to define them?

Seth Price 31:00

Can you watch Netflix?

Sarah 31:02

So, again, Judaism is not the world's most dogmatic religion. So if you're an observant then no, you wouldn't do that, other Jews who are less traditionally observant, they will read sort of, you know, it depends on how you practice Judaism is very diverse, just like Christianity, right? Same as Christianity, that term, it's so broad and encompasses such a diversity of practices and beliefs in Judaism is similar.

Seth Price 31:30

Yeah, I work with a guy who's Muslim. And so the other day we weren't busy, because we're not allowing people to come into the bank because of Coronavirus and wisely. And so we had time, we can only help people on the phone, but because of other bigger banks that I won't get sued for libel about doing things without customers expressed consent. I know that you know who I'm talking about. I know that anyone that is listening knows what I'm talking about. However, I won't say their name. We can't do anything over the phone either. So I'm really just answering the same question over and over and over again, but we started talking about religion. And he asked me he's like, well, all of you believe this, right? And I was like, so no, and I broke it down. He's like, so that's like 20 different things. I was like, Oh, I'm just in the Southern Baptist at the minute. (Laughter) Like, there are hundreds of different things. He's like, when I was like, well, the Methodist don't believe any of that. And he's like, I don't either.

Sarah 32:22

I mean mean even Orthodox Jews are super diverse, where you have very modern progressive Orthodox Jews who go to Yale and become doctors, you know, they just aren't really, you know, whose lives are very similar to yours of mine. And then you have very traditional Orthodox Jews who live in a really insular communities like super diverse right, super diverse!

Seth Price 32:42

What are the three inalienable in “alienable”, it's a hard word to say, dignities? And then you talk about it so early on in the book I spent, actually….so when I read that I actually set it aside for some time, thought about that for almost the whole day didn't listen to podcasts that day. So kind of break those apart for me, what are those three things?

Sarah 33:02

This is a really interesting idea, basically, the core idea here is that what I think is the core animating idea of Judaism and this is something that others think as well, is the idea that we're all created in the image of God. And this is actually a verse from the Torah where it says that, that God created all of us in God's image. And you know, whether you believe in God don't believe in God, you're it doesn't matter. What this means. And this is actually as a Rabbi named Yitz Greenberg put it, this is his term, he says that this means that we all have three inalienable dignities.

And Rabbi Greenberg says,

we are all infinitely worthy. We are all totally equal to every other person on this planet. And we are each completely unique. There is no one else like us.

And you know, you can say, “Well, yeah, Sarah, I think we all believe that. That's obvious.” (But) not a single person believes that. Not a single one of us truly, deeply in our heart, believes that because if we did, why would we ever walk by a homeless man on the street who asked for help and we say, “Oh, sorry, I'm sorry. Not today”, and we keep walking. If that man had been a celebrity, if that man had been someone famous or rich or powerful, you probably would have stopped and been like, Oh, my gosh, this is a celebrity, like, wow, I need to talk to this person. I mean if there had just been a laptop lying on the street, you probably would have stopped and picked up the laptop, whose laptop (is this) but we walked by that man with a sort of plate nod because we actually, we don't think people in our society are all infinitely worthy and equal and unique. We actually think some people are more worthy, unique and equal than other people based on their status, their power, their wealth, their beauty, their fame, their whatever it is.

And so that idea, I think that that's really just the core animating idea of Judaism. It's it's, I think all Judaism is an expression of that idea.

Seth Price 34:43

Can you talk to me a bit about how prayer has changed or shifted for you, and you talk about it a bit in the book as well, of what that looks like for you now? Like maybe kind of what was the prayer of your childhood that you walked away from and then what is it now?

Sarah 34:58

You know, I think the prayer of my childhood was sort of unknowing prayer for him, like, you know, you're reading ancient prayers, you're just kind of saying them, but I didn't really know what I was saying, and it just all, you know I was bored. I couldn't really focus even I think as a young adult, a lot of the prayer just seemed like this very repetitive praising of this all powerful God.

Like, you know this is not really comfortable for me. But you know, not I've started learning about Judaism and really studying the liturgy. It's quite, quite layered and complex. You know, Jewish liturgy, like there is a core Jewish prayer called the Amidah, which is like a, it's just a major prayer you say in many Jewish services and the first blessing of that prayer, it ends with the phrase “shield of Abraham”; it refers to God as shield of Abraham.

That sure is an interesting phrase, like, where did that come from? It actually comes from the Torah. And it comes in a moment where God comes to Abraham and says, Abraham, I'm giving you the promised land. And Abraham does not respond by being like, “Whoa, God, you're here, You're giving me this land”. Abraham says “Well, you know, how am I to know that I possess this land”?

Now that's very interesting, right? When God shows up and gives you something you usually think you'd be like, “thank you“, “wow”. But he's having a moment of doubt, he's not sure. And to kind of see this allusion to a moment of doubt, of unsureness of maybe fear and comfort and presence, like, that's really edgy. And I think there's a lot of complexity and allusions to Biblical passages in the Jewish liturgy, that if you haven't really studied it, you wouldn't necessarily know so I think I know a little more and I see the complexity of the prayers.

I also think that I now understand that Jewish prayer isn't just scripted communal prayer in a synagogue, you know, that's, those are the times that most Jews gather is when they're going to the synagogue for the main holidays, or maybe for Shabbat service, but there's a very rich Jewish tradition of a personal prayer. If you look at the Torah, right, my ancestors when they want to talk to God, they take out a book, they just talked to God.

And there's a wonderful practice called hitbodedut, a complicated word, but it means self seclusion was invented by an 18th century rabbi. And basically what you do is you go out somewhere in nature, the woods, the field, somewhere where no one can hear you. It's good to do it at night, if you can. And you just speak out loud to God. And you do it without pausing, you run out of things to say you say, run out of things to say talking, nothing to say, has to be out loud-it can’t be in your head, you have to do it for about 30 to 45 minutes. And if you don't believe in any kind of God, that's fine. You just say, “Well, I don't believe in you. I don't believe in you. I'm talking to open air”, but you just keep talking.

And, you know, it's a very powerful practice. You can do it inside too. If you have a, you know, just a room in your house where no one can hear you. It's the kind of pouring out of one's heart. You'll be amazed at what you say. So that is a Jewish approach to prayer as well, one that I found particularly moving.

Seth Price 37:54

Huh…I find that terrifying. It's…I mean, not that I don't think I could do it, actually, yeah, I don't think I could do it. Maybe I could talk for four or five minutes maybe. And then I would probably, I think I'd be afraid of what I'd say.

Sarah 38:12

That's sort of the idea.

Seth Price 38:15

I don’t know that that says about me.

Sarah 38:16

Alot of people feel (the same) the first time I did it, I was on a Jewish silent Jewish meditation retreat. My first one, which I already thought was super weird. And they say we were going to do this exercise. I was like, no way. I am not. That is so crazy. No.

Seth Price 38:29

Also was supposed to be silent.

Sarah 38:31

No, no, the Hitbodedut is supposed to be allowed, that was your break to the silence. But I'm really emotional and very powerful.

Seth Price 38:40

So let's say hypothetically, somebody's going to transcribe this episode in a minute…hw do I spell that word that you just said?

Sarah 38:46

(Laughter)

So it’s hitbodedut.

Seth Price 38:57

That's not what I wrote down.

Sarah 39:01

It's also at the beginning of chapter three, my book, I think, is the beginning of chapter three. I think I wrote it out somewhere since there too.

Seth Price 39:08

So you hear people talk about, you know, Judaism is my heritage, or Judaism, my culture, or Judaism is my faith. So for someone like myself, where I'm like, Well, how does that all work? Because you don't get that with Christianity, at least not usually. Maybe in a millennia, we will, but not right now.

Sarah 39:24

Right. So Christianity is a religion. I think, if you know, if someone's a Christian, and then they decide, I don't believe in God, I think there is no God, I don't believe in Jesus, I don't believe their God. Jesus was God's Son. It's hard to argue that they're still Christian, you know, you they might have Christian values or you Christian community, but it's sort of, you know, once you've kind of let go of those core tenets of faith…you know, Christianity is it's a religion, right, it's a bunch of religious beliefs.

So Judaism is more like a peoplehood (in that) you become Jewish either by being born into a Jewish family or by converting to Judaism. So I, tomorrow, could say that I don't believe in anything in Jewish religion. I reject every single Jewish law. I reject every aspect of Jewish religion. (And) I'm still Jewish because I was born to Jewish parents I'm part of that peoplehood. I'm part of the Jewish people.

So Judaism, it's a peoplehood that has a religion, which is it's a little bit confusing. I think a lot of people don't know this. So Judaism, it's not just a religion, because you sometimes meet Jews who are totally not religious, they're atheists, they don't have any connection to Jewish religion. But their parents are Jewish. They're born Jewish. So they are still Jewish. They're part of the peoplehood.

Seth Price 40:38

So it's like if I was I was born in Texas. So if as if it was if, for instance, my religion was also called Texan, but I was also born in Texas, and I'm still Texan but I'm also not, Texan?

Sarah 40:49

Kind of like that yeah.

Seth Price 40:51

I’ve overgeneralized it we did it, it worked for me. So this I have two final questions, one of which is so Judy ism. If I'm wrong isn't ultimately concerned with what happens when I die or am I incorrect in that? And maybe that's not overall true. Okay, so can you walk me through that, because that's the inverse of what people are going to talk about on Sunday, or what they talked about today, well provided we could go to church that you know what I mean?

Sarah 41:15

Judaism is very much focused on repairing this world on being good in this world on, you know, being a partner with God to do good and help others and just repair the brokenness of this world. And we do these things not to earn a position in heaven or to avoid hell, like they're just, that's not the motivation and that's not really at the forefront.

There are Jewish conceptions of an afterlife. There isn't really a permanent hell in Judaism that just not really found there, there are some sort of vague notions of an afterlife and I think as you should go into more observant branches you'll see people who maybe think a little more about that, but that's just not in any way the focus of Judaism like it's a here on Earth religion.

You know, we do these things, we follow these rules and we try to act the way we do because we think that this is what it means to be a good person and to serve the divine to work with the divine and to heal the brokenness in our world. There just isn't really that motivation about an afterlife that’s just not really something you hear Jews talking about.

Seth Price 42:17

To be clear, what you just described a bit about what you think, so I'll call it the Kingdom of God. So people oftentimes tell me (ask me) if I think hell is real. (And) I'm like, No, I'm pretty sure hell is a metaphor. And I'm pretty sure every time I act in a way that I break, “Shalom” that that is what Hell is like I'm physically actively participating in hell. And the inverse is also the Kingdom of God is coming every time I physically act to repair things (shalom). So I also think that both are a metaphor, but I'm fine with that. I'm still working through that but

Sarah 42:47

I love that idea of the metaphor.

Seth Price 42:48

I am well aware that I am the minority…well aware that I'm the minority in my religious group for that. I don't care that I am thought…

(laughter from Sarah)

Um, so the question I've been asking everyone, so When you Sarah say, “Hey, this is what God is like” when I say the word; this is what the divine is like, what are you actually trying to say? Like try to give words to something that I'm aware of how impossible that is but that's okay. I like to watch people try.

Sarah 43:17

Yeah, no, it's great.

I think unless you're a fundamentalist or an atheist, when you try to talk about God, it's going to be incoherent, because you're talking about something that's so beyond our tiny, little, silly little, minds. But when I talk about God, I'm talking about the animating source of all life. And I'm talking about this force of just boundless love and growth and actualization. And I'm talking about what happens between two people in deep human relationship. I think everything and everyone is part of this boundless loving energy. That's what I think God is.

(Now) how do I relate to God? I relate to God as a “you”. Because I can't form a relationship with a force, or with an energy, I just I can't…that's not gonna work for me.

So I relate to the divine as a “you“ and in very fleeting moments when I feel like I've touched into or felt the divine it feels like just this boundless force of love that has been there all along, and will always be there and I am very moved by it, and very overwhelmed by it. And I think that God is not just something that is but something that we choose to do or not do. I think that we can, with this boundless energy, we can use it for evil, or we can use it for good we can be open to it and try to serve it, and try to ourselves be forces of love and growth and care and actualization or we can be close to it and be forces of hatred and cruelty and bigotry.

So, you know, does it make sense that I think God is a force or this boundless source of life; and that I think that it's all that is, but that I relate to it as a “you”? Yeah, that is intellectually, totally, nonsense, but it's what's true for me!

Seth Price 45:07

I like the way you started that “unless you're an atheist” or I forget what else you said, “any conversation about God is gonna be incoherent“. That makes a lot (of sense) yeah, I like that. Because you're absolutely right.

Sarah 45:20

Right. It's like, we have to have that humility. I find it so disturbing when people have the arrogance to say what God is and what God wants and who loves and who God doesn't love. It’s like, “Wow, who do you think you are‽”

I mean, wow, we're talking about something that's so much bigger than that and I think that's idolatry to reduce it to those terms.

Seth Price 45:47

I 100% agree. Plug the places Sarah and then I will plug your book actually, I'm gonna do that before you find the places. I mean, we really didn't touch on maybe what 10% of the book of that? There's a lot in the book and I meant what I said earlier so I literally highlighted the bulk of the print out of the book that I have so thanks for I really enjoyed it i'm gonna i'm actually have to buy the actual copy so I can get it bound and it's easier to read. But plug the places where do people go if they want to buy the book I'm sure it's aware available everywhere books are sold, but where else do they go to read your op eds, all of that goodness?

Sarah 46:22

So you can buy the book anywhere you buy books online. A lot of independent bookstores are now you can get it delivered online, or if you prefer, you know, Barnes nobles, Amazon, Indiebound, Apple books, so many places to buy online. There's also an audiobook which I actually read myself and a kindle version, and then I have a I have a very bad Twitter account. I hate social media. I think it's destroying our souls and corrupting our democracy but I do have a Twitter account it's at @hereallalong. And I have a website which is SarahHurwitz.net and that actually has some discussion guides just because you know, a lot of folks just want to talk about it with friends or sometimes religious leaders want to do a class about it. So I created almost like a curriculum of just questions that you can use to discuss it, think about it. So those are all free, please download them if you want.

Seth Price 47:11

So I told you at the beginning, how out of my comfort zone I would be talking about Judaism…I should have went there. I could have downloaded those. I could have already had the question. But it wouldn't. I could have cheated. I should have.

Sarah 47:27

(Laughter) You were great by the way. Totally great, questions were awesome.

Seth Price 47:30

I appreciate that. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me.

Sarah 47:37

Thank you for having me. This was really a joy and I really appreciate what you're doing on the show, having these meaningful conversations about important issues across lines of faith. I think it's just awesome.

Seth Price 47:48

Well thanks, I'm giving it a good go. We'll see how long it goes.

Seth Outro 48:06

So towards the tail in there, Sarah talked about the arrogance that we have. And I am as guilty as anybody thinking that we fit God into some small box and we've got Him all figured out, we've got her all figured out.

I'm wrong. You're wrong. Sarah is wrong. We're all wrong. We don't have it all figured out. And I think she's right. The arrogance that it takes to say that is crazy. And I'm honest, I don't really have anything all figured out. How could I? I'm barely qualified to do anything that I do now.

I'm so thankful to get to do these. Thank you so much, again, to the new patrons of the show, and to everybody that supports the show in any way that they can. Thank you as well to the Salt of the Sound for their music in today's episode.

Can't wait for next week. Be blessed everybody.