Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Steve Daugherty 0:00

I feel like the work of Jesus of Nazareth is all rooted in what he said summarizes the law and the prophets and all of it is the love of other as self. Well, that would also have in it this idea and you can see it when Paul talks about knocking down dividing walls and all that, that there's this false divide between all of us and there are literal and figurative divides. And to awaken from the fallacy of those, I just, I hesitate to say, “Well, this is why I think the church got so far from it”. I think that it could be in a conversation on a podcast as simple as it well we're not it's it's just a matter of more of us recognizing that we have everything we need already. We just don't channel our compassion and our love very well. We just expend most of it on ourselves because we're taught to be afraid. We're taught to prioritize ourself. We're taught to spend our resources however you want to define resources on ourselves because we're man we're I mean we're just an inch away from the kingdom of God it's in our midst but we still live by the animal kingdom—dog eat dog.

Seth Price 2:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. I am Seth, as always, your host, and I'm so happy that you're here. Thank you for downloading this episode. So I want to be brief in these intros, I'm trying to condense them down into something that isn't rambling. And so the quick pitches, Patreon continues to grow, go to the show notes or patreon.com/CanISayThisAtChurch, pledge, any amount that matters to you, if you're getting anything out of these shows, that community is creating something new, and something I think that can really explode with your help this year. Want to do some live shows want to do some things like that, but all that requires funds. And so those of you that have had your continued support, I appreciate you more than I can express in these words. And I hope that you know that to those of you that have not jumped on board with that. Do that! Do that.

Steve Daugherty is a lot of things. He's a pastor. He's a dad. He is a podcaster as well. But we sat down to talk about his his debut book. So he wrote a book called Experiments in Honesty. And what you'll hear is Steve weaving, Jesus and love, and sometimes other faiths, into the parables and into the words and life of God in a way that helps us deal with compassion, fear, and anger. And I think it's those last two things—fear and anger, they directly correlate with love, and is a hard conversation. It has become a deeply meaningful one to me. And if I can make one small pitch, the way that Steve tells stories in this book, are entirely engaging in a way that I now have begun to co-opt them when I talk about the Bible with people because they're really well said. And so I really hope that you enjoy this conversation with Steve. Here we go.

Seth Price 4:40

Steve Daugherty, welcome to the show. I'm excited that you're here and honestly, thank you Mike Morrell if you're listening for putting us in contact with each other. Dude, I really, really, really, really liked your book. I've been reading it over the last, I don't know, month or two, but welcome to the show.

Steve Daugherty 4:56

Thank you so much for having me.

Seth Price 4:58

One of the things I like to do is to have you kind of bring us up to speed on what makes Steve…Steve. So if you could just kind of go over you know some of your background your history and kind of those pivotal moments in your life that made you the type of you know religious person or thinker that you are today.

Steve Daugherty 5:14

Uh. Okay right out of the gate! (laughter from Seth) I'm not ready but I like it. It is not weather and sports…lets see…

Seth Price 5:23

I mean we can be sports. How do you feel about the Rams vs the Patriots?

Steve Daugherty 5:29

If you want to have a podcast go really badly start asking me about football. I don't have any idea what you just said.

Seth Price 5:36

Well, they played last night. And apparently it was a good game. I didn't watch it. All right. There we go.

Steve Daugherty 5:42

With that out of the way, let's see.

So I've been a pastor for about two decades now. But before that, I spent some some time in the corporate world selling things. To put it as concisely as possible. I think what I have been for a while is an artist disguised as somebody that talks about Jesus and then vice versa. And that's gone well in some ways and not so well in other ways. But my entire life, I wanted to make things I wanted to create things that helps people feel. I love to be in front of a group of people and tell stories and help them feel things.

And so at this point in my life now I'm getting to teach and tell stories and write, and so but those are some that's just kind of what I do and who I am and we can get all the way down into how I was specifically hurt in August 1987. I've got a story about that.

Seth Price 6:51

Well, yeah, when you say artist, what do you mean by that? Because that word means a lot of things to a lot of people and so what do you mean by that?

Steve Daugherty 7:01

Yeah, that's a great question. I, you know, classically, I draw and paint and sculpt and do things like that off and on. But I'm pretty constantly trying to rearrange the ingredients of my existence into interesting things. And so that's visual, mostly. But that's how I see storytelling is the art of taking the mundane and not making it less than mundane, but just showing, you know, anybody that will listen that hey, this is actually quite sacred and also being mundane. And so I just see art as a as a way of walking around with a flashlight and saying, you know, behold, did you even notice this? And helping people to notice it.

Seth Price 7:48

I've said before often on the show that I you know, I play guitar, I lead worship at my church, but often I find the most authentic version of me is the one…is the part of me either when I'm able to pray, right, which is not all that often and pray, right, that's a horrible sentence structure, but it's it's fine, whatever, this isn't written down (except for the transcript :) ). So but but when I'm, sometimes when I'm singing, and it doesn't have to be worship, it really just matters on where I'm at.

And then the song that's on and kind of the meaning behind the song or what I'm hearing in the meaning, like my most true me, ends up showing up in a way that I forget that there's anyone else even in the room, if that makes sense.

Steve Daugherty 8:00

It does, yeah, I think that's very well put.

Seth Price 8:32

Something primal about it. I do agree, though, that you're a good storyteller. And I say that because like as I was reading, well, we forgot to say what it is. So you've written a book, Experiments in Honesty and then there's a bunch of words after that (laughter). And so what, what…I'm trying to remember I meditations on love, fear and the honest…

Steve Daugherty 8:54

honest to God Naked Truth.

Seth Price 8:56

There it is. What are you trying to get at with this book? And then I’ll wrap back up into your storytelling because the way you open the book, I read it a couple times in a row, I really enjoyed the way you open the book with Peter. But what are we trying to get at in this book?

Steve Daugherty 9:10

I have spent a lot of time counseling people in my role and just in my own meditations, and I've gotten hung up, for lack of better terminology on the same kinds of ideas over and over. And so those would be how fear plays itself out.

Fear is really, really clever and sneaky, and it comes out in so many different ways that we celebrate in our culture. And so the aggression, our violences, our manipulations, there's so many different ways that fear controls us. And we just apply a really sophisticated vocabulary to it and then we don't even know we're afraid so. So I wanted to write about fear and how if God is running the whole thing on fear as I learned growing up and had reinforced over and over, then it's really one of the worst programs imaginable. Because fear begets self interest whenever I'm afraid I start prioritizing myself.

And so it's a book about fear, because it's a book about selfishness, because it's a book about compassion. So it's a book about what I think Jesus is trying to do in the day to day with our selfishness and our fear.

Seth Price 10:31

When you say fear in that way, you know, in the way that in unhealthy fear, I assume what you're talking about is the fear of, if you don't do A, God is gonna punish you with B. And you're gonna have to either figure out what the rules are so that you can live that way as if the Bible was a rulebook. But you're arguing that that's not the case. Correct? Is that what you mean when you say fear, like that's the wrong way to look at it?

Steve Daugherty 10:58

I think that that's a big part of it. So yeah, that that programmed and trying to incentivize people, it's the terminology when you use negatives to incentivize certain behaviors that yeah, that's certainly in there. And that's not unique to any given religious tradition.

Seth Price 11:19

Can I say parenting? Is that the proper terminology? (small laugh)

Steve Daugherty 11:21

Yeah, that's a huge part of it. I mean, Jesus teaches to pray. And he says, Okay, Our dad. So I mean, we should pay attention to that we project a lot of that upward. I think that incentivizing people to behave better or else is not unique to any tradition. That's just human beings figuring out very early, how you can control people, but I would go so far as to say and try to end the book, with some humility, that it's also that just because you a minute ago you said healthy fear. I don't think you can prescribe healthy fear in terms of how we think about it with God. There's a lot of preachers who, you know, I think Jonathan Edwards who, you know, this is the proper way to be before God and trying to prescribe an emotional reaction. I think just however you feel in the presence of the Divine is how you feel. And if it's fear, every single time in the Bible, you're told, well, don't feel that way. Don't be afraid that's the wrong. That's the wrong way to be feeling right now in the presence of the Divine.

Seth Price 12:31

Yeah, well, I so I struggle with this concept of fear. And I talked about it with my son just earlier today, because he asked, well, who are you going to talk to in a minute? So I told him, I said, About what? And he's like, well, wouldn't you fear? You know if this happened, and what he said reminded me of this stupid meme, where it's it has Jesus knocking on a door and it says, Let me in so that I can save you. And it says, from what? and it says from what will happen if you don't let me in, or something similar to me. I don't know if you've seen that meme or not.

Steve Daugherty 13:00

I have! I have!

Seth Price 13:02

Every time I see it, I laugh and I don't share it because I don't want to make that thought be, I don't want to make light of that thought, because so many people that thought for so many people that thought is 100% true. But that's never set well with me with like, 1 John 4:18 where you know, “if God is love, there's no fear in love”. If that makes sense, like, if we worship Jesus to Christ, then fear has a very small place, if any, but I do feel like there has to be some kind of healthy fear. But I agree with you. I don't know how to describe that in any way, shape, or form.

Steve Daugherty 13:35

Well, so since you can't describe it, I would say just don't use the word. Because it always comes with what let me tell you what I mean by that word. And so I would say, just say love because I love my wife. And if you really tease it out that would, that would suggest there are things that make me wary about how you know how I approach her treat. Her how I speak about her how I act towards others when she's not around. You could pull those apart and stable those are fears but what they but they really are is ways that I behave because of our love for each other. So I just don't I wouldn't say that I have a healthy fear of my wife, I just say I love her. I think fear in every other way. Again, it what it does is it ends up centering the self because I have to accommodate my fears by trying to get my interaction with the world or other people to be whatever it takes to not be in trouble. So it centers me and Jesus said love others. So really again, I want to say it'd be the worst program in the world if we're supposed to be afraid of a God who said put others interests up above your own, those are mutually exclusive.

Seth Price 14:53

Yeah, so earlier when I alluded to earlier a few minutes ago about you know, being a good storyteller and so the way that you start your book and I feel like this would be in the anybody can see this for free version on Amazon, you know, you get to read a few pages. So you started out kind of retelling the story of, you know, Jesus walking up and be like, Hey, we're going to go back out. We're going to go catch some fish. And they're like, Yeah, right, this isn't, there's no way that this is going to happen.

But you tell the story in a way that I heard new things that I didn't hear prior. And so as a church member not at your church, thank you for pastoring me in that moment. Because I did hear new things that I hadn't heard before. Specifically, and I don't know if this is you coming through but a sarcasm in both Jesus and Peter of “I'm not doing this like really, really”. When you talk about, you know, the rabbi's looking over with a smirk on his face, like, just put it in the water. Come on, Peter, just put it in the water, put the nut in there, go with me!

But I like the way that you do that throughout the book. You break down a lot of biblical passages and stories of Jesus in a way that I would argue is like a sarcastic version of Lectio Divina, which is the way that when I try to do Lectio Divina and insert myself into the text, because that's the way that my brain works. I'm a big fan of puns. I often do that. And so it was refreshing to read someone else doing it in a much better way than I do it internally in my monologue.

So my question is, how hard is that to do with a Bible story to try to breathe fresh life into it, oftentimes with a bit of comedy and humor, but also still be respectful of the text?

Steve Daugherty 16:32

Well, that you know, like, the last part of your question assumes that comedy would be disrespectful, and I would say, it's really impossible for me, not somewhat impossible, really impossible whatever that means. It's really impossible for me to believe that Jesus gathered a following like he did so quickly simply on the merits of being able to heal people. Like he must have made people laugh everywhere you went! And I think it's hard for us to intuit that that is captured, so separated as we are by language and culture, and time and distance and all that. Somebody pointed out a long time ago that when Jesus said it's easier, “you strain out the gnat but swallow the camel”. I think I recall that in Aramaic, in which he might have been speaking, that camel and gnat rhyme. And so little things like that you can't tell in English, but I feel like it was nambla and gamla those words are in my head. I might be making that up. But anyway, that the words in Aramaic rhyme and so it's like the sing songy…Jesus is sitting there saying, You strain out the gnat, and you swallow the camel, and it's got a like a freestyle rap cadence to it. That's very different than walking around with your spine totally wrecked, you know, just never smiling just doling out truth. He must have been entertaining. So anyway, that's a long way of answering to me. I'm trying to capture that if you were in the presence of Jesus, you wouldn't feel like you. I don't think we're in the presence of a biblical figure. You would feel like you were in the presence of just truth and joy. And just I mean, it would be a real delight. And I that's all I'm trying to capture.

Seth Price 18:19

Yeah, I enjoy it. And actually, so, you know, I was reading part of it last night, and I was sitting next, my wife and my son walked by, and he's like, are you reading about the Bible? And then we read a bit of it together. And he's like, well, that story is a little bit different. I was like this is the same story, but I mean, even so for a nine year old, you know, he really, he really got things out of it, which is, I think, hard to do. To write a story in such a way that, you know, demographics of, you know, elementary school and demographics of the purpose of this podcast are both engaged in a way that holds attention.

Steve Daugherty 18:50

It's great.

Seth Price 18:51

You say something in that very first chapter that I underlined and then kept coming back to and so you're talking still about Peter, and how Peter continually just doesn't get it, like doesn't get it, like, over and over and over repeatedly just really struggling to understand what the heck is happening. And so, he eventually, you know, lops off this, you know, what do you say he was aiming for the guy's head and he end up getting his ear. And then God comes, Jesus comes back over and says, you know, you're getting it wrong, put away your sword, don't use it for anything but filleting fish, I think is what you say. And then basically turns and looks at Peter and you say the words. You know, it's odd that Jesus is having to heal victims of his church so early on.

And so I'd like you to break that apart. What do you mean when you say, you know, basically from like, you know, what's that day 20 or however many days it is…I don't know what day it is. You know, where already this nanescent church that doesn't even really exist yet. But is beginning to be birthed or conceived, is already causing victims and Christ is already having to heal it.

Steve Daugherty 19:52

Mm hmm. I think you did a pretty good job right there. I think that every single one of us could tell the story of if we've if we've spent any time with Israel. General life we could say of how how great it was and how also it was the container for a lot of pain. And I think that the church has always been a human enterprise as much as it's been a spiritual one. And I'm not trying to start an argument I don't know what the ratio is supposed to be. I just know it's always included people.

And so my point and that was, in that particular scene, I just can't believe that Peter was going for the for that guards ear, you know, with like ninja precision. He was trying to kill the guy. And luckily, the guy ducked or whatever, and he only connected with his ear. It’s occurring to me right now. I guess he could have wrestled him to the ground and cut it off. Like, that's even more. That's a terrible scene, but maybe Peter was like I am taking your ear! Anyway, in my mind, he was trying to kill the guy on behalf of the press.

Seth Price 21:00

He needed ears to hear and he just wanted an extra one.

Steve Daugherty 21:04

That's not bad, Seth. You are to be commended! You said you liked puns and you just delivered!

So, the irony, and I think it's an intentional, ironic scene. I think I'm using that word, right, defending the one who has told Peter that I am going to lay my life down. The Son of Man is going to be crucified, etc, etc. Peter stands up and says, No, no, no, we're going to do this like a whole bunch of other messiahs. This is going to be a movement where we're going to start swinging swords and all that. And Jesus tells him to stop it and then heals his victim.

I think there's a ton of that happening in the church, lowercase c churches and capital C church, there's a lot of “in God's name, I am going to do this act that's bad for you, but good for my take on what God wants…thus sayeth the Lord” You know, and I think God is doing a lot of healing (of the damage done) by Peter followers.

Seth Price 22:31

You tell a story about killing mosquitoes and I have a question about that just because I don't have a good segue and so I want to try to make people laugh…here we go. So you tell a story about maniacal what's the word you use I'm maniacally killing mosquitoes in a way that would make Gandhi weep. And so, what is it a volume of mosquitoes? Is it like 27 mosquitoes? Is it what it is one enough to make Gandhi weep, but how many does that cause or does it take for you?

Steve Daugherty 23:01

Well, I didn't get a good count. I can say that all stories are exaggerated. (laughter from both) I think I also in that story referred to it as a cloud that obscured the Sun of mosquitos. I'm not gonna stand behind the veracity of that so but my anger, my frustration level, in that story was on point. I lost it!

Seth Price 23:30

I’ve been there. So we had in the backyard before it got eight degrees, a little fire pit and the other day months ago, we were out there was like, I can't be out here anymore. I'm being destroyed. And if I remember my wife is like, you really going to go and I'm like, Yes, I can't if I'm out here anymore. I'm gonna lose it. I it's all over. I want to destroy things. And so I need to go.

Steve Daugherty 23:51

You see it is really cold right now. And I grew up hearing that this really cold days like we're having today. You said it's like 10 where you will All right, it's like ain't where I am. I grew up hearing that that was really good for killing mosquitoes.

Seth Price 24:05

I don't believe it until I see it because Central Virginia I feel like all we're missing is alligators to be like mosquito the population equivalent of Florida.

Steve Daugherty 24:15

Well, a cloud of alligators I think would be way more interesting and probably would have enhanced my faith rather than taking from it.

Seth Price 24:23

Definitely would have been a miracle. You though then roll that maniacal killing of things to make Gandhi weep into talking about I going to say the word wrong a principle of bow his (unintelligible speech) ... Do you remember that word? Because I can't say it right.

Steve Daugherty 24:39

Not by what you’re attempting there.

Seth Price 24:41

You talking about Gandhi in I believe it's a Buddhist practice where or you know..yeah, say that again.

Steve Daugherty 24:50

I believe it's pronounced Bodhicitta.

Seth Price 24:53

And so what is that?

Steve Daugherty 24:54

Bodhicitta, I think I added a V where it wasn't invited, I don't remember the exact translation. And after I wrote that I have a old friend who, he's a Buddhism professor in the Midwest somewhere, and he was excited to see that outlined in my book. But it's the idea where you don't just have knowledge acquired because pretty much anybody can, you know, know things, but is awakened to the true self which is compassion. Which I find fascinating because compassion is a very descriptive way of describing love.

Like not the sentiment, but the volitional from your core essence, way of being towards someone else, which we were told God is love. And so I was like, I was impressed with this idea that, and this is true of different cultures. And my knowing about them means nothing. I'm sure there are far more than I'm aware of that the wisest sages among them are discovering. I think at our core, we are not just everything that we've learned like head knowledge, but we are unitive compassion toward one another, which I am encouraged by that, because we're made in the image of love. And so it makes sense that many of us would be discovering.

Seth Price 26:37

Yeah. How do you think we got so far away from, I would honestly argue, as I read through that word that I'm not going to try to say wrongly again, and then I googled it and read more about it. It sounds a lot like what the church is intended to be in relationship to each other.

You know, I'm in fellowship with every single…well, you could argue everything on the planet. but let's anthropomorphize it, I'm in community with everyone. And so that should change my intentions and the way that I posture myself to others. So, how do you as a pastor think that we've gotten so far away from that? Because that's not the way that at least the western church that I was raised in treats one another. I mean it's not the way honestly, if you turn on the news, that we still treat one another?

Steve Daugherty 27:26

That's a good question. And I don't know how to answer it in a way that I would care about. Like I have words I could say in response to it, but I don't know why it would matter.

Because my first impulse is to tell you, I don't think we're all that far from it. In the same way that you're not very far from another room, if you're in the adjacent room, but you're in a completely different room. But there's just that, you know, there's just so little actually dividing you from that other space. I think of the Vietnamese monk Thich Nhat Hanh, he said, and I'm going to butcher this, “we are here to awaken from the illusion of separateness”.

And I feel like the work of Jesus of Nazareth is, you know, it's all rooted in what he said summarizes the law and the prophets and all of it is the love of other as self. Well, that would also have in it, this idea, and you can see it when Paul talks about knocking down dividing walls and all that. That there's this false divide between all of us and their literal and figurative divides. And to awaken from the fallacy of those, I just I hesitate to say, “Well, this is why I think the church got so far from it”. I think that it could be in a conversation on a podcast, as simple as it well we’re not it's it's just a matter of more of us recognizing that we have everything we need already. We just don't channel our compassion and our love very well, we just expend most of it on ourselves because we're taught to be afraid. We’re taught to prioritize ourselves. We're taught to spend our resources however you wanted to find resources on ourselves, because we're man, I mean, we're just an inch away from the kingdom of God. It's in our midst, but we still live by the animal kingdom.

Seth Price 29:18

So what what would be, you know, if I was in congregation at your church, and I came in, and we're having this conversation, not in this format, and I said, “Well, what do I do then”? You know, between this Monday and next Monday, give me two things to do, Steve, that will matter. That will move the needle towards the Kingdom. What would one to two things be?

Steve Daugherty 29:40

I would probably have a way longer conversation with you than that, because I don't really prescribe steps. Because, especially as dudes, we love steps because it gives us a sense of control. What I would probably want to do is say, you know what, hey, if you're serious, let's just walk this journey together. And then after maybe a year I would say what are you learning about your motivations? What are you learning about how you see yourself when you are by yourself and you're thinking or meditating or praying or fantasizing; how does that shift when someone else walks into the room? And what does that say about how much you perform? And so how does that affect when you pray? Do you talk to God the way that you actually talk?

To me, it's just doesn't package super well and do these things for X number of days. And I don't think that you were necessarily suggesting that I understand your metaphor, but I'm just I think this is like decades long work of waking up to the Kingdom that's in our midst, and we didn't know it.

Seth Price 30:45

So then to rephrase that, how do I know when I know it? What for you I guess personally shifted where you're like, Okay, the light clicked. And you've not to use your room metaphor. I'm not in the other room yet, but I'm in the hallway on the way there. Like how did you know when you got into the hallway?

Steve Daugherty 31:04

Yeah, I don't know. I think that having actual peace that didn't wait for circumstances permission. That I'm better now, if we have to judge it and rate it, I'm better now than I used to be at being in the presence of the world as it is being in the presence of other people as they are. And being able to say, Well, what would I want in this situation?

Because that is the summary of all of the Scriptures to love people as I would want to be loved that, you know, the golden rule and so to be in a situation where other people are trying to escalate and I would say, Well, what is it that they're trying to get across, or I'm trying right now to speak as broadly as possible, but it's the specifics of how well attuned am I in a given moment of giving others 51% of my interest at least.

Seth Price 32:06

That's fair. So you're talking about the golden rule. I can't remember exactly where in your book, but you basically rattle off I feel like it's like 15 or 20 other…I don't know if religious texts is the right word, maybe religious sayings or contemplative sayings or I don't know, but echoed just throughout millennia is that same thing over and over and over and over again?

Steve Daugherty 32:32

Absolutely.

Seth Price 32:33

And so I want to phrase the question, right. Does it being echoed everywhere give more credence to faiths that aren't ours or is that just a universal truth? And I don't mean that to put down any other faiths. I'm not prideful enough to think if I had been born in a different country, I would probably not be Christian. Maybe I would, but who knows? A lot of my religious basis is, you know that the country I happen to be born in so I want to give that caveat. I'm not doing that question to put down anyone else's practices.

Steve Daugherty 33:09

Yeah, I think that if a truth I, as long as we put some humility and you know, we put some asterisks next two words like “universal” and all that. If a truth is true, it would be fundamentally universal.

So, I'm not talking about a doctrinal conviction or something like that. But the golden rule, you know, Matthew 7, Jesus says that, let me take a whole bunch of content—very complex content—and boil it down to love others the way you want to be loved. We see that pop up in lots of sacred literature, and perhaps all of it and to me, that reinforces its validity. That we were all if we're listening, hearing the same voice say this is what it is; this is what matters most.

I think some people are threatened by that, because they don't know how to value a thing unless it's exclusive. Which I understand. I just don't happen to think that way anymore. I'd like to think that when we go up in space and look down at this big puzzle that we call continents that you know, it's it really is one thing, it's one family. And me over here in North Carolina, at 43 years old, thinking I've got the whole thing bagged in a corner, that’s super cocky to me.

Seth Price 34:39

Right. I think you're right, though, that a lot of people don't value something unless it's scarce. But a lot of that I would argue just from the profession than I do is because of the way that we control the supply chain. And then we inherently do that with God as if forgiveness is rationed out and grace freely given is rationed out. And so that I think just the way that specifically in capitalist societies the way that we think about anything that's transactional. And if the bulk of churches talk about, you know, penal substitution as a transaction of grace, it has to be scarce or it's inherently devalued. If I've learned anything over the past year or two, is that even if it was scarce, the scarcity abounds a level that is still overflowing inside, at least this planet, if not all of the planets. Even if it was scarce what is scarce to an infinite God? But I think a big part of our brains struggle to reconcile with things like that, when our society, the way that we live daily doesn't match the way that we could worship daily, if that makes if that makes any sense or not?

Steve Daugherty 35:54

It does. I think it's beautifully said I think that that's a way more eloquent way of saying what I said at the top about everything has fear running in it. And if we assume that's the economy of God as well, then we are making God in our own image.

Seth Price 36:11

I want to end with two things. In I think it's part four, you talk about the polarities of love and control. And you talk about,you tell a story of your father and a story of your mother and how you know, your father, I think you said he's a police officer. And so when he walks in the room, there's an inherent power and an inherent control. So if you could, what do you mean when you talk about the polarities, you know, the north and south whichever way you want to do have control and love?

Steve Daugherty 36:39

The stories I tell about my dad, having been a cop is about like, where I where I learned power, and influence and strength and that sort of thing. And then so learning to be a more loving person I had to unlearn what I thought I knew about strength and, and identity. Because to really love someone Well, I have to de emphasize myself. And so I made a comment earlier about 51% and I put that idea in the book as well, for a long time it's been a meditation of mine like how much of my mental emotional resources are being spent on myself right now? Well, don't feel bad about that just recalibrate and try to give other people most of my intent, not all that's impossible, but most if I can. But when you when you've learned, like a lot of us have, that success is dominance and conquering it's winning arguments. It's winning fights and having grown up with with a police officer for debt and I we've talked a lot about this. I've said right to him, you know, I think I learned some really wonky things about strength from your profession. And oh, yeah, he totally agrees. That to de-emphasize the self to have the humility to lift up others, not just because you've evaluated them and found them worth it, but because well, that's what I would want. And even if I was an idiot, or was wrong, or was burned, or broke laws or was ugly, whatever that is, you know, it's not let me see if you're worth submitting to. It's constantly de-emphasizing the self.

And so at one point, it feels to me as though you have to choose Do you want to walk into a room and have the strength to control it? And so doing protect yourself from ambiguity and surprises and pain, all that, or do you want to come into it take off your outer garment and start washing feet? Very anti American, that second option, it feels like.

Seth Price 39:05

You have a line that I wrote down. And I've given a lot of thought to and I'd like to reframe the way that you do it with a question. So you have a line saying that, and this is a quote,

Jesus announced Good News

capital G capital N Good News,

just as a beloved cousin was incarcerated for the crime of candor. You and I might have called Jesus's timing insensitive, but this is our world and this is our faith.

And that really rings true for me. But my question is this…do you feel like the bulk of believers are called to be the John the Baptist in that scenario, or are we called to be the Jesus in that scenario or is it a little bit of both?

Steve Daugherty 39:47

That's…yeah, that's, I have to think about that. I heard a comic book illustrator say,

I don't know why church leaders always want to be Batman aren't they supposed to be Alfred?

I thought that was really good.

Seth Price 40:01

That needs to be on a shirt.

Steve Daugherty 40:03

Yeah, I thought so to. Uh, you know, I think that it's like a cop out to say, Hey, how about both? Let's just say both.

But I think it's both because what you know, John the Baptist famously said “I have to decrease and he's got to increase” and but what the my point in that particular part of the book is that Jesus ends up being killed dies unfairly if anybody ever deserved to have a better life happened to him it would have been Jesus and yet (he) was still able to with conviction and sincerity say I've got good news. I've come to show you how to live abundantly. And you know when I think about the disciples getting back from having been dispatched by Jesus to go and to proclaim the kingdom and to heal and to cast out demons when they come back in Mark to tell about their their tales of adventure. It's likely that Jesus has learned in that same timeframe that his cousin has had his head cut off because of Herod, you know. And so the idea of all those people coming back into your presence telling stories and talking over each other, and you won't believe what I accomplished. And Jesus says, well, let's go rest.

I would have said, so no one's interested in the week I've had‽ Do you know what just happened to the only other person in my family who gets me‽ and so then they go away to rest.

And people run around the lake and cut them off and ask for more. And Jesus sees them and has compassion on them and teaches them and feeds them says they are sheep without a shepherd. And once again, that's that's me. I'm like, Oh, look, the crowds want more. They want to take more from me. It's take take take with you people, you know, so John obviously has a role of de emphasizing himself and pointing a way to the Christ but then Christ is teaching us that there that compassion needn't be based on the concept of scarcity that Go get some rest but also pour yourself out.

Seth Price 42:13

For those listening, go out and buy his book Experiments in Honesty, the way that Steve retails. Bible passages and truths about the Bible. In a new lens is fantastic. Specifically, one of my favorite stories in the Bible is you know, the the paralyzed man that gets dropped down through the roof. And that is commingled with the song the boys are back in town. And so that is reason enough to go back and get the book.

So when I read that, Steve I did I started singing the song was I read the stories like this, this really works well. And good and I would hope that Jesus had that song playing in his head. You know, when he did you know, when he walked back into town? I'm sure he didn't, but it worked really well in my head.

So where would you point people to? To engage with you? The book is available everywhere, you know, good, fine, fantastic books are sold. But where would you point people to to either engage in you, engage in this work hear more of this type of stuff from you?

Steve Daugherty 43:13

Uh, you know, I'm on Facebook and Twitter. I've got a website that I don't use very well, but I still want people to it SteveDaugherty.net And so I write there, I've got some updates.

I've got a couple of things cooking, but like I said, I just don't use my website very well. But I'm on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram, a lot. And I love going around and connecting with people when I do storytelling, or I go and speak and so that's a my favorite way to interact with people is in the same room. So I don't know when that'll happen, but the hope that it does.

Seth Price 43:52

Fantastic. Well, thank you again so much for your time this morning, Steve. I appreciate it.

Steve Daugherty 43:55

Thanks, Seth, it has been great.

Seth Price 44:31

The music in today's episode is from the band Citizens used with permission. You'll find links to today's tracks in the show notes. I'll talk with you next week. Thank you so much for being here.