Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Luke 0:00

When you start with the idea that you know how the story is going to go, and you lose the curiosity and fear builds up, what it creates is a third word and that’s cynicism. And so if I can't pray this petitionary prayer anymore, I don't want to go somewhere else, because I know how that story is going to work out. It's going to end just as poorly as petitionary prayer did. So why am I even going to try contemplative prayer? And so out of the fear of what's going to come right there because I feel like I know the conclusion I'm not going to receive anything new. And I think that's the balance of curiosity has to be stronger than your fear. And if the God that you're working with is a God, who is going to be really frustrated if you try something new, the God you're working with is a God who's waiting for you to step out of bounds if the God you're working with is one that creates trepidation over everything you do, then it's going to foster a greater sense of fear. And so you're never gonna have that curiosity because it's constantly squelched by fear. What I would say is, the move to, as Scripture says, You can't go anywhere that God isn't there and they God is with you in all things and the idea of fear is antithetical to the spirit that God has given you.

Seth Price 1:31

This is the Can I Say This At Church podcast. I as always am still Seth, your host. I'm going to have to find a better way to introduce these but for now I'm still Seth, your host. So today I sat down via Skype with Luke Norsworthy to talk a bit about his new book God Over Good Saving your faith by losing your expectations of God. And I must tell you this book is extremely easy to read and various impactful, the stories that Luke weaves in hit home for me, there's a lot of similarities in his story and what I hear from a lot of other people, there's a lot of similarities just in our faith in general and it's nice to talk about them openly. And so we're going to talk a bit about our faith, how we build the structure of it, what God is what God looks like, and then what that means for our faith daily. What that means for our churches weekly, and what that means for the way that we live right now, not tomorrow. But right now what that call is to change in our lives, to realize that God is over good, but God is so much better and so much bigger than any metaphor that we could figure out how to talk about him.

So, really hope you enjoy it. Here we are. Luke Norsworthy.

Seth Price 3:29

Luke Norsworthy, I'm so happy that you're here on the show. So I've listened to probably 15 or 20 episodes of your show because it's existed for like, I don't know what 4 or 5…17 years.

Yeah, and so I just want to be up front I'm a big fan and I'm also slightly jealous of your pun game because your puns usually come off much better than mine. Mine tend to be a little too much head knowledge. And so I have no idea where that will go but I'm slightly worried and also excited for this episode, but I am a little worried about the “punness” that may come out.

Luke 4:01

I'll do my best to keep it on point. But I know that they're just really gift. I'm just a conduit. I'm giving it from above, and I'm just a mere vessel for these puns to flow through.

Seth Price 4:15

It's a spiritual gift it's in the Apocrypha, I believe it's definitely in there talks about puns. I forget what the Greek word is for puns, but it's,

Luke 4:21

2 Maccabees it's in there.

Seth Price 4:24

So, for those not familiar with you give me a bit a bit about what you do. Because, I mean, you're your pastor, you you're a podcaster. And so what would you say that you are? What is your job?

Luke 4:37

Oh, well, I mean, my bread gets buttered, being a pastor of a church. And so that's like, that's like the first big block of who I am. Like, besides like, the whole like, I'm a dad, I'm a husband, that kind of stuff. So I obviously I'm a writer, and I am podcasts or pastor kind of all those things. So I kind of feel like They're all kind of intertwined in one way or the other in a lot of ways, it's, you know, creating content. And I think each of them have their own different place in like, like the bigger work that I want to be doing. And so I like, kind of like, I like having multiple things that I get to have my fingers in. And so that's, why I like it.

Seth Price 5:20

So if you were to name that bigger work that you want to be doing, what is them?

Luke 5:27

Good question, so that you're off to a solid start. (laughter) Um, the bigger work that I want to be doing? I've never tried to like, encapsulate all of those different hats into one thing. I want to be creating, like a life giving creator. And I don't know exactly how to describe that. I think my sermons hopefully are life giving and hopefully my writing and podcast stuff can do the same thing.

I think that's the kind of the tie in but ultimately, I think it's someone who's curious themself. And it's my curiosity. I think that's pulling that all together. And so it's, it's work that all is kind of the, the byproduct of my own personal like journey. And so I'm doing like I'm doing theology in the public, but really, it's I'm trying to be transparent about my own spiritual journey.

Seth Price 6:18

Sure.

So I wanted to do, I don't normally do icebreakers. But I don't often talk to people from Texas. And so I just need to clear the air. And when I say from Texas, I'm fairly certain I read in your book that you were born in Philadelphia.

Luke 6:34

Yes, yes. Yeah.

Seth Price 6:35

So right. I mean, I was born in Texas. And so

Luke 6:36

But you ran away,

Seth Price 6:38

So see, I was I was “called” to meet my spouse in Virginia and you have to you know, you have to answer the call, as it's given to you. Um, although I've lived in Virginia now, I think as long as I ever lived in Texas, and so I think the scales have tipped towards me being a Virginian. I definitely no longer have my accent unless I talk with my family.

Luke 6:58

Is there a chance we could get the accent By the end of this podcast?

Seth Price 7:01

It's probably gonna have to be you. I have to hear it. But if we say words like, “right”, I'll get it.

Luke 7:06

“All right, all right“ (think Matthew McConaughey),

Seth Price 7:10

Usually it’s when I'm exhausted, and luckily enough, I'm not today, then my brain. So in college, I took a class on professional speaking. And we had to record ourselves and remove the uhhs and the likes and all this stuff that makes you sound like you don't know what you're talking about. And we also had to remove our accents. And in the process of doing that, and filming it, I broke whatever it was in my brain that makes the accent work to where I often find I mirror whoever's accent I'm speaking with and it sounds like I used to live where you were from 25 years ago, but I no longer do. Although I've defined that it's endearing to people like they always latch on to it slightly because I kind of sound like I might be from where they were from.

Luke 7:51

I did that to a girl from Essex a week ago and she found it more like offensive that I was using it like I didn't very shoddy British accent. To me it was very entertaining to her not so much!

Seth Price 8:09

Yeah, well I find that I'll say “potato” (in British accent … barely) wrong like that when I watch like a lot of Doctor Who or something like that I say or Peaky Blinders or something I'll say potato and a few other words wrong without catching myself.

Luke 8:19

I so garage obviously is my go to but I recently was, this is Australian but you know all the Hillsong guys they don't call it church they call it “church church”. I said that in “church” I just like a church came out and I didn't mean to just happen so I don't even…

Seth Price 8:40

..but was it well received?

Luke 8:45

Um I don't remember I feel like I just can't move actually I was singing I was not actually preaching when I said that I was just singing a song I was like, I just sing the word church rise up “church” anyway.

Seth Price 8:52

Alright, just to set the thing so Whataburger or In and Out Burger.

Luke 9:03

I mean Five Guys is my go to burger place, which is that Virginia based?

Seth Price 9:08

No, it's okay. But I'd rather huh.

Luke 9:13

Okay, I was driving home from Dallas, talking to someone you've had on your podcast Suzanne Stabile to be correct. And I was coming I was like two in the morning and nothing was open and I went to Whataburger that the problem though is they had the caloric intake for each of their like meals or their burgers or whatever. And I sat there for two minutes just staring at like 900 calories for burgers, like why would you put that on there? We already all acknowledged this isn't good for me. I'm going to do it to myself, don’t tell me what I already know.

Seth Price 9:40

So the way that I do the caloric intake thing is much like if I go to shop for a suit and I check the price tag, I didn't belong in that store. If you go into Whataburger, you shouldn't check the price tag or you should you just don't it's not why you go there. For me you go to dip chicken fingers in gray. Hmm, yeah, that's fine.

Luke 10:02

As the Lord intended.

Seth Price 10:04

Yeah, and then and then I don't believe we were recording it. So, from what I understand you prefer the Longhorns, but I need to know why they're better than the Raiders so that I can dig in on my brother a little bit.

Luke 10:14

The Raiders as in like the Texas Tech. I didn't even know they really counted. That's weird.

Seth Price 10:20

That's a fine answer!!

Luke 10:22

I mean, you take out the one stinking catch by Mr. Crabtree, Michael, against. I don't want to mention the safeties name, but because he's from Austin, but I don't know why he didn't catch the previous pass. Anyway, that's a deep call back to a game that the Red Raiders actually had success in. But I had a friend of mine who actually played for Tech and so much love and respect to the Red Raiders. But Texas forever.

Seth Price 11:00

Hold on one second. I think I'm about to get interrupted by two daughters.

Luke 11:01

I respect this He's using hand signals right now to call. I'll narrate this. So right now, Seth is currently using hand signals. And much like someone who trains dolphins communicates with them. He is at a parenting level where he doesn't even say anything. He's just doing like the snaps and fingers.

Seth Price 11:15

They haven't breached the door yet breached is probably the best word. I don't hear them anymore.

Luke 11:20

Hold! Hold!

Seth Price 11:24

Alright, here we go. You have written a book, God Over Good, which is harder to say than you would think that it is. And subtitle is saving your faith by losing your expectations of God. And so I want to focus in on two of those words. When you say your expectations do you mean your expectations? Are you inferring that mine are already wrong?

Luke 11:45

As in Luke Norsworthy’s expectations or listener or readers expectation?

Seth Price 11:50

Either is fine, but your name is listed underneath it. And so the title for the book is it more directed at yourself or more directed at the person that picks it up?

Luke 11:57

I wrote this as my own attempt to make sense of my faith. And I didn't even write this content in the expectation that it become published as a book. And so it was written initially for me and a lot of what I do in there is autobiographical. I think that everyone has their own expectations and for me to fill in the blank over what they look like to you, would be a bit of as you might say, Tom foolery, it would be a fool's game because I can't I can't say what your expectations are. Everyone has expectations, we all insert them into it. And they're all going to be different. They're going to be affected and influenced by the different contours of your life from your parents to what you watched what you listen to where you're from, but I think there's some like, kind of like meta narrative stuff that we all do this on a on some level.

Seth Price 12:43

Meta narrative. You're the second person ever that I've ever heard say that. So my pastor also says that quite often.

Luke 12:51

Sounds like a smart guy or gal.

Seth Price 12:53

I know what his definition of that is what is a meta narrative specifically, I guess when we talk about God?

Luke 12:59

Well, I would say, let's do some Joseph Campbell work on this, the monomyth where there are certain things that are archetypal, that transcend continents and cultures that seem to be endemic of the human experience. And so that's what I meaning that there is this sort of grander thing that's happening than just my own sort of like, this is who I am. And this is what I think. But there's something about humanity that kind of flushes this out in our own individual ways.

Seth Price 13:30

One of the stories in your book, you talk about a guy and I'm going to get the metaphor wrong, you tell a story of a guy that builds basically a “McMansion” at the beach, and he's good, he builds this wall, it's great, it's great. It's great until there's just a tsunami. I'm gonna call it a tsunami, a large wave that destroys the entire thing. But what I find out about that story is he still has so much faith in what he's built upon himself, that he can go back, he sees the wave coming anyway, instead of fleeing, he decides I just stand behind this nice, really nice, densely compacted sand wall.

And so something about that spoke to me and I feel like it's because that I see is…I try not to usually say what I actually think on the shows, but I'm gonna not do that today. So I feel like that is so much of what the church is today. We've created Jesus or the church or religion into a box that doesn't really have any weight outside of the ink on the pages of the Bible. So maybe I'm wrong on that. I don't think I am. Maybe I am. So that story in the book. Where were you at in your life when you wrote that? Because you'd said so much of this was written to you not really intending to be published.

Luke 14:52

I never thought of that as why didn't in this parable, this guy? Why don't you just run away. Maybe in my mind, like this wave comes and there's no way to get away from it. And so maybe the idea of getting away from it was just wasn't in this character's realm of possibility. Regardless, I was thinking more of that, you build something and you build it for moments like this.

Two weeks ago, I was in Israel and I was at this house that was maybe. I mean, you could see that the Gaza Strip, you can see the wall from the basically their backyard. And like everyone in that area, they have this bomb shelter built into their house. And just two days before there have been a couple kids that were killed and so they were bracing for retaliation. And so the previous night, they were told you got to go spend it in the bomb shelter. And so the night before she slept in the bomb shelter at their house right next to the Gaza Strip. When you have something like that in your house, you're gonna run to it, no matter what you think is gonna happen because you have it there for that very reason.

I think faith becomes a thing where we think like, I've built it for this moment. When crisis happens, we regurgitate the stuff that we have kind of concretize, that we've internalized, that we have held on to and that's what's going to come out. The weirdest thing about being a pastor is that you hear people say things that that you're like, you heard that 20 years ago, you haven't, like brought that up. You haven't had that in discussion. But somehow, in this moment, like, that's all you have to say, which maybe it's a good thing, maybe it's not a good thing, but I think crisis kind of bring some of the stuff out. And so maybe, maybe if we can play with this metaphor a little bit longer. In some ways, we determine where we're going to go in crisis and what we do beforehand, and so this guy has built a structure. And so when crisis comes, he's just naturally going to run to what what he's been building all along; almost automatically.

Seth Price 16:48

Yeah. Well, I mean, that makes sense. I mean, if I mean, that's what you do. When you evacuate for a tornado. You go internally to what you trust. Yeah, muscle memory. Yeah. The problem is, though, If that's my faith, what do I do when it washes away?

Luke 17:04

Well, what I think the point of the parable is, is that the very thing he was most afraid of, that he thought to be water that was going to destroy him was actually living water that was trying to deliver him. But the life was not found staying on the shore, but it was what the living water was trying to get him to experience in the water. And so what he had built was actually an obstacle for the light that he needed to receive.

And so the point was, even after this guy gets washed ashore, he's still trying to fight back and get to the land. And he's trying to go back through the motions. And this is the story that you hear for, for many people that you have gone through the, I'm assuming you've talked construction, deconstruction reconstruction, on you're podcast. And often when people go through that sort of like deconstruction, one of the very normal experiences that people try to go through the motions that helped them build a faith in the first place.

And so I'm going to go back, I'm going to read the Maxwell Lucado book or whatever it was that you you read and I'm going to play the songs again that I listened to when I was growing up and my faith is making sense to me. And I'm going to go and hear the same sermons again. And you're going to go through the motions thinking that you can reestablish what at first made sense to you. The point is that like, you got to move forward on that.

Seth Price 18:14

No, I agree. And I've, we've talked a lot about deconstruction reconstruction. Try not to talk about it as often as as I think others would like. But nobody wants to read the same chapter over and over but one of my favorite things that one of the listeners said one time is they prefer to think of it less as reconstruction and more like deconstruction and reconstruction and more like art restoration from a Masters hand. You had something that you did in my I built this van Gogh painting, and then my daughter came in and finger painted on top of it. And if that's my faith, I've done something that I thought was good and beautiful and holy on to this beautiful canvas of someone that bears the image of God.

And that salvation and deconstruction and whatnot is basically working your way back back down to the original masterpiece. Which I like a lot. I like that image a lot. It's still just as painful because for art reconstruction there's you do destroy things like what is gone never comes back like it's the patina is gone. And if you do it poorly, you'll run you can you ruin something that, that I don't know how to repair?

Luke 19:23

Yeah, yeah. I get that! I get that.

Seth Price 19:24

How do we take in new information and at the same time allow it space to process and disrupt what we currently know without just checking out and ejectioning seat right out of the sanctuary?

Luke 19:40

As in what like learning new ideas?

Seth Price 19:42

I mean like anything; like some of the biggest pushback that I've gotten on lately is I talked a lot about contemplative prayer at church and with friends and they're like, well, that's really like a Catholic thing. That's not really what we do like you probably doing it wrong. It's just too emotional and they just check out because it's new information. And it's not necessarily something that they want to entertain. But I find those that do entertain, dip their toes in slowly. And they never really know how to enter into an engagement with it for fear of either doing it wrong; and so not gaining anything from it or fear of it, breaking what they already know. And then really not knowing well…okay, well, so for talking about contemplative prayer, I no longer can pray in a petitionary way. But I don't know how to pray this other way. And so I guess, about that, I'm just not gonna do it at all! So how do we how do we take in any new information?

Luke 20:35

I think there's three words, curiosity, fear, and I'll get to the third in a second.

But it seems that when you start with the idea that you know how the story is going to go, and you lose the curiosity and fear builds up. What it creates is a third word, that's cynicism. And so if I can't pray this petitionary prayer anymore, I don't want to go somewhere else because I know how that story is going to work out. It's going to end just as poorly as petitionary. Prayer did. So why am I even going to try contemplative prayer? And so out of the fear of what's going to come right there because I feel like I know the conclusion. I'm not going to receive anything new.

And I think that's the balance of curiosity has to be stronger than your fear. And if the God that you're working with is a God, who is going to be really frustrated if you try something new, the God you're working with is a God who's waiting for you to step out of bounds if the god you're working with is one that creates trepidation over everything you do, then it's going to foster a greater sense of fear. And so you're never going to have that curiosity because it's constantly squelched, by fear. What I would say is, the move to as Scripture says, You can't go anywhere that God isn't there, and that God is with you in all things and the idea of fear is antithetical to the spirit that God has given you. You know, the 2 Timothy forgotten I give you a spirit of fear but of power and boldness everyone to translate that self discipline maybe, I think moving away from fear to curiosity is what I think is gonna help you get forward.

And I don't think every new idea that you receive is going to be good or one that you're going to want to hold on to. But if fear is what is already in your hand, then you're not going to have the ability to receive anything else.

Seth Price 22:41

So I always like to ask this question to pastors and I asked it of Austin Fischer, who I know you spoke with, there's a guy with a great Texas accent right there

Luke 22:50

He really really really sounds like Matthew McConaughey. I at one point thought during his book, he was gonna say doubt is all right. All right. All right. I feel like that should have been a tagline.

Seth Price 22:56

You should have just asked him too, and he probably would have, he seems he seems like a genuinely nice guy.

Luke 23:04

Yeah, he's a friendly fellow. Okay, Austin Fischer.

Seth Price 23:07

So as I was reading through your book, I'm fairly certain we're the same age. You're 36 correct.

Luke 23:17

37 as of 2 months ago, three months ago.

Seth Price 23:19

Yeah, that's, that's within the margin of error. So we're basically the same age. Your wife is a nurse with really, really sick babies. My wife is a nurse. And so we oftentimes discuss things and we deal with cynicism specifically about just I don't understand how any of this can be good. And so when I like this, this baby is a year old with leukemia, or this poor child was born with Crohn's disease and now also has cancer. And I honestly don't know how people like your wife and mine can even function in that job. It would break me apart in a way that I don't know I would ever be able to come back from. And I'm glad that they can do that.

But I always struggle talking with my wife and with others like that about dealing with that with a God that is good, or theodicy is is the fancy word for that, but I try to not use seminary words, I just don't like them. So how do you deal with that as a pastor? And then specifically, I like the way that you deal with it a bit in your book, but as a pastor, how do you counsel people through that, that are dealing with that?

Luke 24:25

Well, I try to figure out first of all, like what they're looking for, I don't think suffering is the time to necessarily deconstruct someone's faith or to start them down the road of deconstruction. I think sometimes people just need to survive and to get through it, and I'm not encouraging people to have like, unhealthy name and claim that sort of stuff. And if they're having that sort of dysfunctional theology, I might jump in and have a conversation to steer them to something a little bit healthier.

But my first question is like, Okay, well, what are you looking for here? What are you going because I know when adversity Job's friends had a A lot of good things to say. And it got worse when they started to use them. So I think part of what I want to do when I step into a situation like that is I just want to sit and be present with them. And so I'm not doing a lot of, hey, here's the book you need to read, or here's how you should see this as much as hey, here's what you need to experience. And that's someone you love and presents to you.

But I can tell you that I had a situation back in July, where we end up spending two nights on the oncology floor of Dell Children's Hospital, we thought that our four year old daughter had leukemia for two days. And so it was Yeah, it was to the worst days of my life. And then when we finally found out after a bone marrow biopsy, came back and said, No, it's not that it's something else. It was the best news I've ever received. Absolute blessing, but like this is a world that your wife lives in because she sees these sick babies that have cancer. And in that moment, what I was reminded of is that I was not alone this that, that God is not some, you know, magical phrase for me to utter. If I say the right prayer, then I get this Hocus Pocus reaction that turns it into my magical ideal future. That's not what God is.

I think what I had is that God was with me and suffering. And so I think that's the move is that I'm not looking for an answer. Because I think ultimately, answers don't get you where you need to go. I think what the Christian tradition offers for us is a story. That's the story of God stepping into suffering with us. And so in Jesus, I know that he's experienced the worst of the world and that he will step into it with me too.

Seth Price 26:35

Yeah. And so you talked a little bit about what God isn't. And so, to flip that, what is God then like, if God isn't causing the suffering? What is God?

And I know the fancy answer is, well, God is love and that's great and all but how do we flesh that out? When you talk about God? What exactly are we talking about?

Luke 26:57

Well, I think you need to accept the gods. In some ways, this is a line from Pentecostal theologian named Chris Green. He says, at some point, you have to acknowledge that God is not useful, that you can't use God to get what you want. That the sort of name of claiming stuff is not something that God's offering. It's just not there. And so if you want God to be a provider of services for you that you can’t provide for yourself, God's not useful.

I had a parishioner once who was trying to process this, and he goes, Well, if God doesn't give me what I want, and like, what's the point? I go, Yeah, well, that's what you've got to figure out at this point, that that God isn't that Genie that you're looking for?

The other side of that, I think, is relationship and I think that's the invitation that we've had all along from the very beginning of the garden. The invitation is that, that God is going to walk with you, that God is going to be there beside you. And even when you mess things up, the one that is going to close you from the consequences of your own decisions, is God and I think what God has given us God, and it's not always what you want. It's not always what you feel like would be the best scenario. But the story of God working in the world is that God is with the Jewish people. And God didn't provide for them the way they wanted. They wanted a perfect situation. But when they're in the wilderness, what do they get? They get manna, they get this literally food that's translated, “what is this”? But that “what is this” is enough.

And I think sometimes we look at God's provision to go “What is this? This isn't what I want”. And I think that's the invitation to receive the daily bread that God still provides for us.

Seth Price 28:32

Yeah, I'd like to think that that manna is the Ancient Near East equivalent of Soylent, because I've heard that that stuff is effectively nutritionally valuable barely, but awful. Like just yeah, just enough.

Luke 28:46

Yeah, just it's just enough.

Seth Price 28:49

So there's a chapter in your book that I want you to flesh out a bit so you talk a bit about “character not container” and this the part in that chapter that really got to me is you say And I'm going to try to quote you from memory.

Love makes us weak, because love makes us vulnerable.

And that might not be 100%. Right, but I think it's close. So when I say that, what do you mean?

Luke 29:14

In that the quote, mine might not be right or the statement itself?

Seth Price 29:18

The quote, I was trying to call you from memory, but I didn't write it down because I'm lazy. I feel like that's close though.

Luke 29:24

Honestly, I believe you like I could have written that like I would, I would cosign that. That's right. I have a guy who's actually been on my podcast, who was a CIA operative for eight years or so. And I was looking for a picture of him online and I was like, I don't see anything of you with your kids on Facebook, or I don't see like anything and he goes, “Old habits die hard”. And I'm like, just imagine like the voice of someone from a Western know what happens to her. Because you when you're a CIA operative, you don't put anything out there that your enemy could use against you to make you weak.

And that's what relationships do my I just told you beforehand that this morning my wife calls me and says that she's been in a car accident. And so I freaked out. And I'm worried because I've chosen to enter into this lifelong partnership with this woman that I love. I am now vulnerable and susceptible to being hurt in ways that I wouldn't be before it. That's just what love does, because you open yourself up and this is what you know as a parent is that to be a parent is to live every day with your heart walking outside of your chest, because it's there with your kids.

Like there's nothing that makes me more vulnerable than being a father. There's also nothing that makes me more fulfilled and overwhelmed with gratitude for the existence I have. Love is this invitation like, do you want to close yourself off from all that God has to offer or will you receive it and all the consequences that it has for you? And the consequence is that you're vulnerable, you can be hurt.

Seth Price 30:53

Yeah, well, and I've also found, the more open I am to relationships, the more loving the world becomes, but the quicker I am to get angry and that’s probably a me thing.

Luke 31:07

What do you mean? What kind of anger?

Seth Price 31:09

Oh man. Well, mostly with my kids. I feel like there's a dam that opens inside of me. That is the emotional dam and whatever love flows through that can quickly become angry when I feel like expectations aren't met or reciprocated, which is probably a me thing. I hadn't planned on saying that. Hadn't hadn't planned on saying, you know what, that's fine. We're gonna leave that alone. We're gonna leave that right there.

Luke 31:35

Save that for your therapists.

Seth Price 31:37

Yeah. Well, I will say that that you know, honestly, there's a line in your book. You said

you started your podcast just because you wanted to talk to people about the stuff you were doubting

That's honestly the reason I started mine and I never expected anybody to tell me ”Yes”, that they would come onto the show. And then they did.

Luke 31:55

You've had some good people on here, right.

Seth Price 31:57

Ive got Luke noseworthy I expected everybody that I've ever honestly every time I email someone, I expect them to say no to protect myself against hurt.

Luke 32:10

There it is! Yeah. You had Tom Wright to the podcast, too didn't you?

Seth Price 32:13

Tom is great. Yeah, we talked right around the royal wedding, which was fun.

Luke 32:17

That's pretty sweet,

Seth Price 32:19

Very fun and very hard to not slip into the British fake American version that I like to try to do. Because that would have I feel like been insulting. You used two big words that I do want to drill into. Because I feel like a lot of the hang ups on the church proper today, specifically with my Calvinist friends or dogmatic or hyper fundamentalist friends that you use orthodoxy and you use orthopraxy. And can you break those apart a bit what they mean and then if what they mean is true, what that means for our faith.

Luke 32:53

Yeah. So ortho, meaning “right” as like you go to the orthodontist to make your teeth right straight through

Seth Price 33:02

Is that what that means?

Luke 33:04

I don’t know, it should be!

I went to seminary that seems about right. (Laughter from both) I said it enough that I think is true now. Yeah. Okay. So like, right and then,orthopraxy means right practice in orthodoxy as in right thinking. And so, so much of what the church has done is like, let's make sure you think, right, let's make sure that your thinking is good. And therefore that means you're a card carrying Christian.

We've done that at the expense of saying, what about practicing? Like, what about the way you live? What about the, you know, the Matthew 25 when Jesus says, oh, if you fed someone if you clothed them, if you visited a prisoner, that's when you will know that you're one of us, that's when you know, you're, you're an insider. And so I think we've we've intellectualized faith at the expense of making it about what we do, and I think you see that fleshed out a lot in American Christianity.

Seth Price 33:54

So how do we engage in a dialogue then because the more that I do this show and the more that I read and the more that I pray, and the more that I deal with my own issues with God, the more I feel called to actually live differently. And when I do that I get called a heretic because it doesn't match someone else's orthodoxy. And I don't know how to make those two things work.

Luke 34:15

How do you get called a heretic?

Seth Price 34:17

Oh, man. Well, I the other day, I was just reading. And honestly, it's because NT Wright. I was reading quite a bit about women in ministry and whatnot. And someone else was like, well, you just read the Scriptures wrong. You did it wrong. This is not what that means. Women can't be in ministry and the fact that you even believe that I don't even know why you go to church anymore.

Or if I talk about inerrancy, or it's really with my fundamentalist friends, but to be fair, most of my friends that are religious are from Liberty and that was self induced because that's what I went so I could have chose I went to visit Hardin-Simmons or Abilene Christian and I chose to neither do neither one of those.

Luke 34:53

Well, Abilene is working against you. Like Abilene says, We don't want you here because we're so ugly. And so I get that like,

Seth Price 35:00

Why is Abilene ugly?

Luke 35:04

Have you been there? I mean, you're…you're from Midland. Nevermind, everything's beautiful compared to Midland.

Seth Price 35:10

I remember the first time I flew my wife out when we flew into Dallas, which she had to circle because there was a tornado. So she was delayed for hours scared her out of her mind, you know, not a big deal. I was fine with it. And then we as we drive into Midland, it progressively gets if you can get more flat than Dallas, and more yellow and more dead. Yeah, it gets there until all we have our dirt and buildings. So I mean, Abilene I mean, that's, that's we're close to the lakes, or “a lake” is it buffalo…?

Luke 35:42

Yeah, that's right. Buffalo Gap. That’s where my parents used to live.

Seth Price 35:44

We (my family) would go [there] for Memorial Day. So for me Abilene is an oasis compared to Midland.

Luke 35:49

You know, it's like the person with the talents if there's one with 10 and one with five and one with one. And if you're calling Abilene beautiful like you have a like a tiny fraction of one talent of beauty where your four year from what I know Scripture says that God's like reveal God's, you know, power love through creation. But it's very hard to see that in Midland. I'm just saying it's, it's like the worst.

Seth Price 36:14

Well it’s in the people. I will say the most beautiful part of Midland is being able to go out at four or five in the morning and watch the Moonset and the Sunrise at the same time with the noxious fumes of all the oil refineries because it really makes the sunrise beautiful. (laughter)

So it's pitch black on one side and all the colors on the other side at the expense of the planet, but currently beautiful. And then as you get towards East Texas, that two weeks when the blue bonnets flower, if you go out at sunrise, it's like the entire planets moving, and that's beautiful. But besides those two to three days, the other days are pretty dismal.

Luke 36:49

Seth, what I appreciate about you is this—that you've created an ideology that lets you see beauty, Midland, Texas and I think what we're called to do as people as to see the beauty of God wherever we are. And so I feel like no matter if your friends call you a heretic, the fact that you can do that sort of like monologue about the beauty of Midland, Odessa, speaks to the spiritual formation that's happened to your soul. And for that I say, Well done, Seth.

Seth Price 37:14

(Laughter) I don't even know what to say.

Luke 37:16

Okay, your question, you're, you're, you're being called a heretic.

Seth Price 37:20

I have to think what's happened to you? I mean, just from some of the guests that you have on your show has to push against the bulk of what, you know, the normal Church says quote, unquote,

Luke 37:31

I mean, but I'm gonna enneagram seven. So when people says do whatever it doesn't, that doesn't. It might have I don't feel like I get it.l alot.

Part of it is that I'm the Church of Christ and our tradition has, some of us are pretty fundamentalist, too, but I don't know. Okay. I have been called fundamentalist. I've had people write like, a 27 word paper, critiquing a three week series I did on music. So like I've had, I've had that stuff happen. Whatever, it's just part of life.

But I think when people do that, it says less about you and more about them. Because what they're doing is they're revealing to you that I'm so afraid of me being wrong. My picture of God makes makes it such a trepidation inducing experience to hear someone whose perspective is outside of mine, because it might make me feel like what if I thought that was right, eventually? And what if I thought what I believe right now is actually wrong. Because that makes me wrong. That means I'm on the other end of God and God is mad at me. And I'm outside the bounds of what's right.

I think they're expressing to you their own anxiety, and you're just a screen upon which they're projecting that. And so, when they say that to you, I think it's more like it's more reflection of who they are and their inability to live in the tension of humanity, of trying to understand who God is. And if you don't have the bandwidth to see that there are different perspectives. That's because you're probably feel like you're walking on a pretty thin line that at any moment you can fall off.

Seth Price 39:04

Yeah, that reminds me of a quote that I'm gonna badly say and I don't remember who said it could have been anybody. Something about you know, the God that we read in the Bible usually looks a lot like the God that we want to see like it's a mirror it's a reflection of yourself. And so if you see a hateful, angry, vengeful, tribalistic, whatever God is when you if you see a loving God, it's probably got some insights. That's what I hear in that, but no, specifically the ones that the one recently is, you know, it's the caravan thing. Where, you know, a lot of my Christian Brothers and sisters, you know, want to protect the country and support and not letting them come. And then I read Matthew 25 and be like, No, I'm pretty sure that we should not have church on Sunday and drive down there and give them food, water and clothing. And so there's there's that disconnect that that I get the most pushback on.

Luke 39:54

Yeah, no, I get that. But I think that, you know, you're wading into politics, and I think that speaks of, and all Christianity, I think deals with politics not in the partisan politics of today. But in the sense of like, how you treat people in the macro? How are you a good neighbor? That's that's politics. Yeah. I think when when people respond so vehemently on issues like that it speaks to the fact that they've been more discipled by Fox News or MSNBC than they are, by the words of Jesus. And what we have happen in those moments is that we realize that our ideologies have become idolatries and that we've elevated these things to the place of deities or religion and what it should be.

And so I think what you're doing is you're dealing with a power principality that is bigger than what they want it to be because it's not. It's become beyond what they actually want it to be. Politics isn't just politics anymore. It's become an ideology that defines them and that's idolatry. That’s what Judeo-Christian tradition has called idolatry for years.

Seth Price 40:57

I want to drive that home. I want to honor our time commitment, so if we understand is God over good, and from what I got overall from your book is God is so much more loving and bigger than anything. Not necessarily bad that can happen but God is just so much better than whatever we want to call good. There's not really a good metaphor, and that honestly when we talk about God, that's really all that we talked about us, you know, metaphor, you know, everlasting, benevolent, whatever the words are.

And so if we really believe that God is over good, what will that change tomorrow, in next week's sermon, like what will that change in our religion and in our faith? And not just in our small little segments of Cooperative Baptist (or) Church of Christ, but the church proper the capital C church, what will it change if we can get behind God over goodness?

Luke 41:46

What I hope is that people don't walk away when their sand castle when their structure when their barricade gets gets knocked over. Unfortunately, many of us have relegated God to just our definition of what a good God should be. And so we we juxtapose our expectations that we've created, and like you said earlier, often those are our own character, the virtues that that we elevate to be valued. We turn those onto the macro and say, that's what God is. But God has never signed up to live up to those. That's not what God has promised. And what I hope people get is that even if things aren't good, that God is still with you. And then even when circumstances don't go the way you want, when you understand that God has never signed up to do what you want God to do, but what God has offered to do is enough, then I think you can not walk away when you're sand castle gets knocked over and when you're pulled out to sea. And what hopefully you'll find is that when you're out to sea, and you feel like fate hasn't gone the way you wanted, that the very thing that is maybe pulling you out is the very thing that's trying to save you.

Seth Price 42:58

so the the book has already been released at recording it was released two weeks ago, middle of October?

Luke 43:04

Beginning of October, but yeah, a few weeks ago.

Seth Price 43:06

Time flies. I watched a lot of Ferris Bueller. And so time moves quickly when you have three kids under under 10. So it's everywhere that good books are sold. And I know that well the other day I was at Books-a-Million. So I moved your books and I promised Suzanne that I would do this in my episode with her, I move it to the end caps. I move it where people see it.

Luke 43:28

That is the Biblical thing to do. That's orthodoxy and orthopraxy merged together.

Seth Price 43:33

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's helpful. I saw you put something on Twitter the other day of you know, you could get a free book. Or you could help your kids go to school.

Luke 43:42

Just buy it ;). Yeah, I got three kids too man.

Seth Price 43:44

Yeah. With that being said, Where do people go to interact with you? Definitely listen to more of your podcasts if they like the cut of your jib. How do they interact with you out of my job? I like that. If you're picking up what I'm putting down. With my jib Yeah.

Luke 43:56

Cut of my jib… I like that. If you’re picking up what I’m putting down with my jib cuts, I'm on the Internet. Twitter, Facebook (ehh) Instagram, I feel like I'm moving to Instagram that's where I want to be. I feel like it’s less combative than Twitter. And it's, it's, I don't wanna say like less all those like weird people from high schoolish, then Facebook, but maybe, no, that's not true. Yeah, but like, hit me up on Instagram. I'm there. I'll be on Twitter as well. Okay, are you on Instagram?

Seth Price 44:30

I am but I rarely post to it. Mostly because I get annoyed that I can't post links ever easily. Like I can't even say like, “Hey, here's a cool, whatever, whatever.” I can't post links and I don't really take a lot of pictures that aren't of my kids. And I don't really want to share those pictures with people that I don't actually know. You know what I mean?

Luke 44:51

That’s fair. If that’s what you want to jib with your cuts do that man.

Seth Price 44:57

I mean they're nice knives. lots of nice cuts. But where can they listen to your work? Where can they listen to your show? Do your podcast and then if they want to hear more of your sermons are those are available online as well?

Luke 45:10

Itunes, just typein my name and I there's a ton of content out there. Okay, all of it is good. But if you want what's over good, like God, just go buy the book. Absolutely. Like buy a bunch of copies and read them all and just just buy them. Don't give them away but tell your friends to buy to. I’ve got kids.

Seth Price 45:28

Buy 10, stack them up and rotate

Luke 45:32

The books, you know color the books or do you know-it's red. Do you know what the best colors for Christmas decoration Seth?

Seth Price 45:29

Absolutely. I see where you're going with this. Definitely green.

Luke 45:43

No red! You could just use it as Christmas decoration. Just get like 20 of them wrapped around your tree. Merry Christmas. If you’re Jewish Happy Hanukkah Festival of Lights works for that. Perfect.

Seth Price 45:54

But the key thing is though, the ribbon that wraps them together. That has to be green.

Luke 46:00

Yeah, I mean that's that was definitely implied you have to infer that.

Seth Price 46:06

Why not. Yeah. Well, thank you again Luke, the most free willing podcast that I've done so far so.

Luke 46:13

That's a compliment I want to receive Seth, you've been doing some good work. You’ve got some good guests. I feel like you got this podcast thing going for you. So yeah, I'm glad you're doing it. I respect somebody started a podcast because they want to talk to people. And I'm glad that people say yes to when you ask them to be on the podcast. So keep up the good work, man.

Seth Price 46:47

I think that it is important for us to possibly take 4 to 15 steps back of what we think goodness should look like. what our expectations are when we pray, what our expectations of good need to be. Because if we're honest, good, revealed in Scripture is not always what we expect. What I think is good is not always right. And I know that so often what I think is good is most likely not holy. And so I'm challenged both after speaking with Luke and after reading God over good to really sit with that. When I pray for something to sit well with me to be good in my life. That might mean that I give something up that might mean that it's wrapped itself in trauma. Good does not mean pleasing. Good does not mean happy, it can, but it doesn't always so we are going to have to learn to wrestle and be transparent about doubt, and about cynicism. And I really think the key there is cynicism, as you heard Luke speak about halfway through there.

Cynicism is I think in my mind, this sarcastic part of me that refuses to see what is true and beautiful and actually good. So I'll leave you with that. If you haven't yet, go to the show notes or just google God Over Good or Luke Norsworthy, get a copy of this book. He's right it is red and I do believe it would be a great Christmas gift. I don't disagree with him at all. So buy 27 copies!

If you have not done so, even if you have do it again, I don't think you can. But let's do it again. rate and review the show on whatever format you downloaded it in the primary one I know is iTunes but there are others castbox stitcher and a bunch of others that I've never heard of. But please rate and review the show that is one of the single best and easiest ways to have more people come in contact with some of the conversations that are going on both here and extended beyond here and I would appreciate it. It costs you no money and it cost you very little time. Be honest in your review, I do read those and I appreciate each and every single one of them.

There has been continual weekly surges in the patron support I'm ever thankful for that I literally don't have the correct words to express my gratitude to each and every single one of you that takes the time to do that with intention. And I appreciate you so much. The music today is someone that I've followed their music for a while. And so I've alluded to being or living close to Charlottesville, Virginia, often and so there's a band that is popped in and off my radar because of local illness, called Tim be told, is there a contemporary Christian music group that originated in Charlottesville, you can find their music at TimBetold.com as well as you'll find the day's tracks on the Spotify playlist but please go to that playlist. Support the artists, they get a little bit of money every time you play the songs and so just binge that playlist. I love doing it myself. So with that, I'll let you go.

I'll talk with you next week with a conversation about a new moral ethic that is greatly deeply pressingly needed. In our church with Dr. David Gushee.

Looking forward to it, I'll talk to you soon.