Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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BA 0:08

We really don't realize how much our seeing influences how we think and how we respond. And in those moments, all I could see what the dandelions in the yard were a nuisance that needed to be contended with and killed. And on the trail, all I could see was the mud and blood. And both of my kids in both instances saw something that I couldn't see. And so, to me, it was just saying, Man, you know, there's so much about this life that I look at. And I look at it through broken fractured lenses, I look at it in distorted ways that really doesn't have my true heart at the center of it. And so, to me, those were kind of pivotal moments in my life where I thought I need to change how I see those things around me not speaking out. You know the dandelions so much, but just how I'm seeing people and situations and circumstances.

Seth Price 1:26

Man, I do not know about, but I'm really getting tired of everybody just yelling at each other constantly yelling, breaking each other apart, creating tribes amongst interior tribes until we're so far spread apart from each other that we cannot see each other. We certainly can't hear each other. There is intentional and unintentional trauma and pain and it's breaking our churches, our country, our families, our planet apart, literally causing destruction which is the opposite of shalom.

I'm Seth, your host As a Can I Say This At Church podcast what you can expect today in the episode is a conversation that I had with Brandon Andress, where we discuss what the kingdom of God, what Shalom, what finding beauty in the wreckage of our world. And that wreckage is self-imposed often, and it's hurtful and it's painful, and it's not necessary. In an age that outrage is everywhere, in an age where animosity is rampant. In an age where we openly hate each other, I hope that we can hear these words and so I'm going to paraphrase the late Eugene Peterson, from Matthew 11:28-30.

Are you tired, worn out burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me. Watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won't lay anything heavy or ill fitting on you. Keep company with me, and you'll learn to live freely. And lightly.

It's that last part, how do we keep company with God? How do we get away from the busyness of life, the cacophony of noise, and reconnect with a portion of us the beautiful part of us that part of us that used to see like a child, I don't know. But I do know it's worth working for. So here we go. Conversation with Brandon Andress. Hope you enjoy it.

Seth Price 3:50

Brandon Andress, thank you so much for coming on at the Can I Say This At Church podcast. I was pleased if I'm honest, I think a few months ago to get your email and thank you so much for sending me your book. I'm excited to talk about that in a minute. But before I do, thank you again for making the time this evening to come onto the show.

BA 4:09

Yeah, thank you. Um, you know, whenever I listened to your podcast before I came on, I was like, this guy has the best radio voice ever. I love listening to you talk. Good stuff.

Seth Price 4:19

Yeah, well, thanks. Yeah, I'm a little bit threatened. So a few months ago, when I recorded a few like, my voice was literally gone. And like so I talked and people haven't heard those yet. And by the time this comes out, they may have but I got a little bit of like a “Is this what I sound like when I'm sick”, but it didn't matter. You know, the, the show must go on. But, but I interviewed Brandan Robertson, and Steve Austin. And both of them have voices that match mine in baritone. Right. And I'm a little bit insecure about it. I don't know how to. I don't I'm not used to that. I'm a little insecure about it.

BA 4:55

Oh, that's great. No, it's great to be on and thank you for having me.

Seth Price 4:59

So tell me a bit about yourself if I was explaining you to someone to go to church with or someone said, Hey, Seth, who did you talk to last week? What would you want me to know or what would you want others to know about you?

BA 5:11

Man, that's a crazy question. Just to start out, I knew that you would probably ask me that. And I'm not even quite sure who I am. So my story's a little bit strange. You know, one of the ways that I can tell you at the beginning is that I was telling my wife this evening, at supper, I said, it's weird for me to hear that pastors are reading my book, and my blog, and my podcast, because I'm not a pastor. And I didn't go to seminary and I have no educational background in any of it. But we were going to a church probably about 10 to 12 years ago, and we'd been there for quite some time. And we really kind of felt like that we wanted to do something different and step out and start a new church. And so we did so, you know, for the last, I've been out of it for a while, but for about seven or eight years, I was part of a very grassroots non-pastored, staff led church, and it was very organic. It was in downtown Columbus.

And so what's what's kind of funny about all of that is that I never really wanted to do any teaching or anything like that. And all of a sudden, I was kind of getting into this role of teaching. And I did about four to six years of seminary training within nine months of reading, because you know, if you're going to do something, you really need to know what you believe yourself. And I grew up in the church, and I really didn't know what I believed myself. So anyway, long story short, is that through all of that process, I really started discovering some things and opening my eyes to a lot of things that I didn't know about my faith.

And so my deconstruction, you know, that's kind of the buzzword was in 2007 and went downhill from there and then had been building up since then. So while some people are just coming to that place of deconstruction mine happened quite a while ago, and I'm on the other side of that.

Seth Price 7:12

So I want to clarify. So when you say that you did nine months worth of reading to get seminary education, you're talking about just self like, Alright, I don't know anything about this. So I now need to have better answers. So you self educated or were you like taking classes?

BA 7:27

No, no, I didn't take any classes. I just started buying books. And I mean, there were a few books that really kind of set the trajectory of where I'm currently at. I always tell people, there were two main books. One was Myth of a Christian Nation by Greg Boyd, and I think he was on your podcast. And that one introduced me to the kingdom of God of which I didn't know anything about at the time, but then that shattered every paradigm, everything in my mind, every thought that I thought I’d ever believed, was destroyed at that point. And then, as if my foundation couldn't crumble anymore, I read The Kingdom of God is Within You by Leo Tolstoy and it was all over after that.

Seth Price 8:05

I haven't read that. But actually, so I've tried to read the myth of a Christian nation and I've told Greg this, it's written a bit above my head and, and I use him as an example often that people like, well, who’d you talk to, I was like, well, I talked to a guy one time that as he could see me on the video, he said,

“Seth, I can see things coming out of your ears. Stay with me, I can see the brain coming out but stay with me…”

…and I was like, you're gonna have to explain it to me like I'm a kindergartener, because that's what I need.

BA 8:33

Right. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what I mean. Honestly, if anyone said, you know, who do you think you are, I would say, I am a guy that understands Greg Boyd and understands Leo Tolstoy but I feel like I'm a guy way below that, who I know all the people that I know will never read them. And so I feel like it's my job to take those paradigms and to make them understandable for other people.

Seth Price 9:00

So you've written three books now. And so if you're thinking about that, where does your most recent Beauty in the Wreckage fit in to helping educate people about what your current views are?

BA 9:15

Yeah, I mean, my obsession over the last decade has been the Kingdom of God. And I think that there's just so much misunderstanding from Christians within the church on what that even is…I grew up understanding the kingdom of God is just being future Heaven, you know, future distant heaven. And, you know, there's that verse and John, it's actually the title of the book that I just referenced, where Jesus says, you know, you're looking for the kingdom over here, then you'll say, it's over there, but the kingdom of God is within you. And then you start really realizing that every time that he says, The kingdom of God is like, he's referencing a reality that describes what we are to live presently.

And it's certainly something that will be realized in the future, but we need to begin living it and actually letting it work through our lives presently. And so kind of leading up to that I think I've been frustrated over the years because even though I use the phrase Kingdom of God, I still feel like that there's a lot of people that don't understand it. And kind of leading up to this book, you know, one of the frustrations is just like I know that everything that I want to talk about, at its heart is about the kingdom of God. But I, finally acknowledged that we don't live in a time where there are kingdoms, and that there are kings and there's not princes and princesses and Queens. And so this language is archaic, and it's foreign to us.

And so, really, as I approach this book, for the first time, I thought, I'm going to introduce different language that gets at the heart of what it is, but something that's more relatable and understandable and so the word that I actually pair with it is shalom. Which to me, shalom is that perfect relationship between us and God, that then we embody and extend into our relationships and then outward into the communities and ultimately it's, you know, the completeness and harmony that we experience with ourselves and with others in our creation. So, you know, ultimately that's in essence, what the kingdom of God is, but I just wanted to introduce different language coming into this book. So that was a huge step forward, I think, for me expressing that.

Seth Price 11:39

So when you started talking about Shalom, and I think it was in the introduction. I wrote like a hard line, like a double line. And my comment was, I feel like shalom is not even close to possible right now in America.

BA 11:53

Correct.

Seth Price 11:54

But I don't know what to…it's it….I don't even know why we're fighting anymore. I don't and because of that, I don't know how to sit with that. I mean, as we're, as we're recording this, it's like two weeks before the the elections on the sixth. And it's only going to intensify and then continue to intensify, and I don't see anything close to shalom.

BA 12:25

No.

Seth Price 12:26

So what do with that?

BA 12:27

I mean, what a state we're in. What an absolutely discouraging state that we are in. I don't know, man, my heartbreaks. And one of the bigger problems that I've seen for at least the last decade, if not longer, is just how entrenched Christians have become in that system. You know, kind of that binary system of this side is right, this side is wrong. And then the other side says the exact same thing and we've kind of bought into that narrative as the church and then unfortunately, we've started acting almost identical in throwing our anger and hatred and vitriol and dividing against other people. And so he's been large contributors to it now, you know, and I think that there would be many who would point out that evangelicals were overwhelmingly the ones who elected Donald Trump.

So introducing a book like this, where, you know, the title is Beauty in the Wreckage, Finding Peace in the Age of Outrage. I think that the subtitle has really caught people's attention, because I think that down deep, I think that people will intuitively know that this is not the way that we move forward. We can't move forward. We're spiraling downward but I don't think that anyone knows what to do about it. And unfortunately, our churches are just continuing to contribute to the problem. And so, I want people to know that like, right at the beginning of this conversation, this book is not a step by step manual to tell people how to fix themselves in the world. And this book is not a fill in the blank sermon, that’s gonna tell you how to do all of this stuff. This book is birthed out of my own personal experience and my own personal pain and what I've gone through personally.

And so you know, what you're going to get with this book is not some deep theology or something that tries to, you know, sermonize or pick apart parts of the Bible to, you know, change things. What you're going to get with this is someone who's willing to walk with you vulnerably through it and say, “let's reevaluate how we see ourselves how we see others, how we see our relationships, how we are currently living with one another”.

And then is there a way that we can begin living differently and so it's a very, I would say, it's less me standing in front of people with a billy club or rope trying to pull people as much as you know, I'm a part of this thing as well. And I just want to lead gently.

Seth Price 15:06

So when I tell people that, and I did it today, you know, on Twitter, or I do it by email, I just get called a heretic because I don't want to buy into what let's just say mainstream Christianity because I can't come up with a better metaphor at the moment. How does someone like myself or it sounds like you engage in the communities that we're in, enter into the wreckage that is all around us and the pain and the cynicism and the bigotry and actually be present in it without contributing, breaking more things into pieces and making more and more wreckage and more and more, what do they call it Flotsam and aboat wreckage? How do I do that? Like if I'm a pastor listening, or if I'm not like my wife and I teach Sunday school and these middle schools ask us questions like this often, like, what do we do about this? When we're talking about Jesus and that the gospel is written usually to people that are oppressed? While we're in America? What does that mean? And I find myself never really able to answer the question. A because I'm not their parent, but be because I'm afraid to do harm.

BA 16:24

Yeah. I mean, these are the real issues that we face, unfortunately. And I, you know, I think one of the things that I would be very quick to say is that the way that everything is being painted in the media is that, you know, your only response can be extreme on either side. And I think that because of that we've lost really kind of an essential humanity where we can't even see other people as human beings. And I think it's in chapter two of my book where I start talking about we've become so accustomed to labeling people and classifying other people and automatically assuming that we know about them and you know, their personality, their attributes, who they are at the very core, just by giving them a label that we really have dismissed their own humanity.

And I think that that's really a kind of a call to. I mean, this is not even making it a spiritual discussion at this point is just calling people back to your really basic humanity, of getting to know people and, you know, I think that we've become so detached and so depersonalized from other people because we're on social media all the time where people don't even have you know, hearts and feelings and children and relationships. And we look at them as another, you know, kind of depersonalized entity in cyberspace, where all of a sudden we can rip them to shreds and; man, I don't know I just I kind of feel like that. If my kids are coming to me saying how do we do this better? If we are going to move forward, I would say we've got to get back at a very basic humanity where, you know, I remember watching, this isn't in the book, but I remember watching that show with Morgan Spurlock? I don't know if you remember that when he did the 30 days with the fast food thing. But then he did a television show.

And when he took people who were diametrically opposed with one another on specific issues, like really hardcore issues. Things like one guy was a border agent who was capturing people as they crossed and he was so adamant against it and very vocal about it. And then he took people who had crossed over illegally who were living here, and he had them live together for 30 days. And the most shocking thing was that everything that each one of them presupposed about the other person began to break down over these 30 days to where they started becoming friends. And then all of a sudden their opinions about each other change, then all of a sudden, they just saw the basic fundamental humanity of each other. And by the end of it, both of them had changed their opinions of the other person, just because they got to know the person.

And I think not that my book is going into all of that. But I'm just, you're asking me a very difficult question about, you know, how do we get people because I think the cynic in me would just say, I don't know if some if many people even care.

Seth Price 19:39

I don't think they do. I think the actions a third way that we treat people repetitively and unintentionally, like just at our nature.

BA 19:51

It is and here's, here's, here's my, I hope maybe this is the optimist in me is that I hope that The most aggressive people are those who are at the far ends of either side of any issue. And that there is real, that there that there are more people in the middle who are just like, frustrated that they know that we can't continue on this way.

And so maybe, you know, while I hope to change the hearts and minds of people on either extreme end because I do pray for them, and I want people's hearts to change towards one another because we can't exist in a country where we are at each other's throats ready to kill, you know, and chant, “send them to jail” or “send them to prison” or “lock them up”. We can't live in a society where we are inciting violence and riots and mobs against one another. But I am speaking to the people right in the middle two of just saying, No longer can we be sitting in the middle of all of this just watching it passively that we actually have to in this would be the point of the book is to say, discovering shalom is something that's not a passive experience. It's a very active presence in the world.

And so, you know, some people could very cynically look at my book and say, Well, what are you saying? are you just saying that we should sing Kumbaya and sit on the corner and be happy and you know, feel close to God? And it's like, well, I mean, certainly, I think that we would go a long way to find our hearts once again. And I think that there are places where we can discover that through breathing as prayer, when we find solitude and nature, and just, you know, the small things of relationships. But at the same time, what we are getting from that that shalom that we're finding is that which we take into the world of that point. And there's there's ways to face issues in this world without taking more fire into it. And that would be the point.

Seth Price 21:55 

I like the way that you throughout the book, and I do this often at least on this podcast and I do a lot in, in, in person interactions is I like to weave my family into the story. And so you have done that at a great level. And there are two stories that speak to me.

So for almost everyone listening, except maybe my wife, I was an Eagle Scout at a time, and so you tell a story about you and your son, I think he's four. And you're going off and out into the wilderness and just his expectation, and just the beauty that he sees, when as adults, we've been reconditioned to see things in a different way. And you do a similar thing, I believe with your daughter, and with Dandelions. And when I read that it really spoke to me I have a she just turned six, but I had a very similar experience where I wanted to remove them all. And she wants to pick them all and present them to me as a bouquet.

BA 22:54

Oh, yeah.

Seth Price 22:58

And so the tension is like when I read that I was like, so I'll tell you one thing Brandon, one thing like I was reading a book as I couldn't read it in one sitting. Because of the personal stories in it and he relation to it, if that makes sense.

BA 23:11

Oh, it absolutely does

Seth Price 23:12

And we talked about it not being like a five step plan or a sermon notes version of, you know, just say this on Sunday. It's absolutely that, like, you have to let it sit with you, which are, for me the best books, but they're also the worst books. Because I don't really like to always challenge myself.

BA 23:29

Yeah, right, you're not the first person who said that, and I really appreciate it when people say that because even at the end of every chapter, I put self reflection questions and so people can let it set and think about it. And just, you know, I think part of it is just being very contemplated and thinking about ourselves and who we are and what we're doing. But you're exactly right. I have more stories into this book than anything I've ever done. And you know, my first book When it came out, it was way more preachy, I say, and kind of like Isaiah walking down in the streets naked for three days yelling at people,…

Seth Price 24:11

In Ohio! (Laughter)

BA 24:11

Yeah, I'm just gonna, I'm not gonna say anything. I had a great follow up but I'll just leave it there. My second book was way more tongue in cheek. And people have said, you know, how is this book different than the other two? And I would say that this is the best expression of my heart. If people want to know like, really what's in my heart, this is my heart. And so this book is deeply personal.

You know, and obviously, a lot of the stories that I put in most of them, with my kids being the central characters, me being kind of like the thick headed apostles, and my kids being the one teaching us. But I'll tell you, both of them really quick. sent in I went backpacking and he was four at the time. And the trail that we were on was just lined in mud. And on the side of each trail, it was just lined with thorn bushes. And so, you know, I don't feel like going on an overnight trip getting muddy or certainly like walking into thorn bushes, bleeding, but I was doing both. Both my boots were caked with mud, my arm had blood dripping from it, and I was kind of looking at it, and Will, the entire time that he's walking down this trail, not paying attention to the mind not paying attention to the thorn bushes, was just looking straight ahead.

And he was saying, for goodness sake, this is so awesome. For heaven's sakes. This is so awesome.

And I was just like, man, it might have been one of the most poignant moments I've ever had in my life where I thought I have a There's beauty around me. And I have this, you know, amazing moment with my son. And all I can see in the moment is the mud caked on my boots and the blood running from my arm. And it hit me because it's the same point that you brought out with my daughter whenever I was talking about the dandelions is that we really don't realize how much our seeing influences how we think and how we respond.

And in those moments, all I could see with the dandelions in the yard were a nuisance that needed to be contended with and killed. And on the trail, all I could see was the mud and blood. And both of my kids in both instances saw something that I couldn't see. And so, to me, it was just saying, Man, you know, there's so much about this life that I look at, and I look at it through broken fractured lenses. I look at it in distorted ways that really doesn't have my true heart at the center of it.

And so, to me, those were kind of pivotal moments in my life where I thought I need to change how I see those things around me; not not speaking of you know the dandelions so much but just how I'm seeing people and situations and circumstances.

Seth Price 28:00

So I live on the backside of the Blue Ridge Mountains, right where Skyline Drive starts, and so my backyard is well, it hasn't yet because we get a lot of rain for some reason this year but here here soon it will, it will just bloom into every color imaginable. And it is beautiful. And it's full of mosquitoes, but it is it is also beautiful. (laughter)

And I find more and more, especially this year, as I've tried to intentionally slow down usually late at night after the kids are at bed. And I begin to pray and I'm trying to take time to self reflect that I'm seeing more beauty, but I have an advantage because I live next to some. And so how if I live like in the middle of Dallas or in the middle of Chicago, what would be some things that you could intentionally do to set yourself aside from the metropolis to look for and hear and see and feel what I would call those you know those thin spaces where the divine can break through; or to borrow a phrase from Tupac, the rose grows up through the concrete?

BA 29:09

Right, right…

Seth Price 29:10

I can see how it's easy for someone in a rural area like myself, where I can easily seclude myself, but I don't know that it would be as easy for my friends that live in bigger cities, or in a different line of work, quote, unquote, with that they just don't have the same time to set aside to be intentional to look for beauty.

BA 29:29

Yeah, it's a great point. And it's actually one that I made in the book. Because a lot of the examples that I use have to do with backpacking. I'm fortunate enough, and I love to go backpacking, and I've been to some amazing places throughout the United States and Canada. And I've had those real, surreal, moments where I'm in just solitude where I'm just kind of about finding my breath again, but also seeing the beauty of it.

And I think it doesn't take a person having to go to Alaska to find that or to find respite in Moab, Utah, or, you know, on the John Muir Trail in California at the top of Mount Whitney. I think about those experiences that we have, that we all have shared experiences, and you know, maybe it is as subtle as just going into the family room with a loved one a brother or a sister or your mom or dad or your grandparent and just holding their hand—or, you know, just finding a tree to just lean up against and just watch the ants work and just watch the wind blow the leaves.

You know, maybe it's sitting outside on the patio or the stoop or the stairs and just watching people as they go by and just seeing the beauty of each person and, you know, I think that it's what we create. We all have those places…you know, even with my job, I'm in my car all the time. And just the other day I was kind of locked in to figuring out like, Am I gonna listen to a podcast on my commute? Am I gonna listen to some more music on my commute? And I looked down and I saw this beautiful morning sunrise and all of the kind of fog just hanging up close to the ground. And the way that was shining through the trees, and I just stopped for that moment and just took it in and appreciated it.

So, you know, I don't think that it takes a person having to necessarily live in rural areas or live in the Blue Ridge Mountains or, you know, have those special places that you go to as much as having the eyes to see the beauty that is around us already. We did this one thing a few years ago, I didn't do it it was something that somebody else set up. He gave each one of us cameras. And I'm not saying that people need to do this. It's just going to make a point. But he gave each of us cameras. And he said, we're going to go out and just walk through downtown. And just take pictures of beauty that you find in the ordinary.

And I mean, we were finding the, you know, the grass breaking through the cracks. We were finding like, I had this picture of a popsicle that had melted where the stick was still on the ground and just the shape of what had melted was there and I took a picture of it; or this little circle in the middle of the pavement where it had like this perfect green, it wasn't even grass. It was like this really neat green right in the middle of the road and I took a picture of it.

I thought, the things that we pass by every day that we don't even pay attention to, you know, the smile from your wife, holding your your friend's hand while they take chemo. therapy. I mean, it's it's the hugs that we share with one another. So, yeah, man, it's, it's not the exception. You know, it's the rule. I think that it's there for us all the time that we have if we're there for it.

Seth Price 33:14

Yeah, you talk and, and I like this so much so that I put it on Facebook tonight. So I'm sure you've already read this, but you speak in your book about what you call the relational disconnection from God. And that that is the beginning point of every lie. And one of my favorite episodes that I've done of this show is with my pastor, and we talked about the concept of ego and soulchild and some of the work from Henry Nouwen, and other work on that, you know, the powers and path of oppression and, and whatnot.

Then we talked about pain and trauma and how we shelter ourselves and we try to to create this facade, that becomes us but it isn't really us. And I hadn't really heard anybody say that except for my pastor. Aside from like Henry Nouwen and that kind of stuff. So what are you getting out when you say relational disconnection from God? Because I feel like if I can find a way to look for beauty, it's gonna make me confront whatever that disconnection is. How do those two interplay?

BA 34:25

Yeah, so I mean, first off my background is psychology. So I kind of tap into that a little bit. But, you know, one of the really funny things I did see you post that, and I was surprised that I wrote that because it sounded really good. And I was like, man, I don't know I was capable of writing something like that. I honestly forgotten a lot of the stuff that I've written in the book (laughs)

Seth Price 34:51

I triple-checked, I wanted to make sure you weren't quoting someone else. And I was like, yeah, this is him. So here we go.

BA 34:55

So one of the things that was going on in the back of my mind at the time is that everybody likes to throw in, you'll see that I've done this several times throughout the book with different churchy type words, but one of the words that has just been abused for forever is the word sin. And really what I'm getting out with that is sin, because, you know, kind of spell it out in that job in that chapter is just talking about like, 75% to 80% of the time that we see the word sin used in the New Testament, it is a noun.

And it's more of a position rather than, you know, everybody always thinks of sin as being these little naughty deeds that you do like the verb actions of it. But the truth of it is, is that sin in its most basic form is a position where we stand in relationship to God. So people have made it like this horrible word that we throw around and I don't want to downplay it, but I also want to say that there's a real relational element to it.

And so the way that I see it is that there's a relational disconnection between us and God. And if God is life, and if we are choosing to walk away from life and if there's a relational fracture or break, then we are walking away from life. To me, it seems like that in that place is where we find all of our brokenness, all of our darkness, all of our all of our waywardness. So that's really what I was getting at is just, I was using different language to kind of re-understand sin, honestly.

Seth Price 36:34

So, can you talk (about that) more? What do you mean when you say positional, something about that still isn't clicking for me? When I you just alluded to, but when I hear sin, I think you're living in sin, or I'm intentionally doing something and so, specifically, what do you mean positionally, like if you were to, if you were to explain that to my six year old, how would you explain that?

BA 36:55

Well, I'll say this first part, which I wouldn't say to your six year old is that the Greek word That they used for sin is ἁμαρτία (hamartia) which is a noun. Okay. So kind of at the very beginning, it's telling us it's giving us this idea that it's a noun, and then what the word means. And this is what I would say to your six year old. And so whenever you are shooting an arrow at the bullseye, and the arrow is off target, it's in a relational position that's off where it should be. It's not in line with it.

So really, whenever I talk about a relational disconnection, it's it's the place that we find ourselves when we have strayed from life in the divine.

Seth Price 37:40

And so to stretch that metaphor, if I'm shooting an arrow, and that arrow would be would be me in my heart in my intention, and how I treat others in this world. I think, if I'm moving, am I changing my aim or is God moving the target?

BA 38:01

Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. You know, I would say that anytime that we choose non-love, anytime that we choose non-life, those are the positions. I don't think that those ever move if God's very essence character nature is love and life to the fullest, I don't think that there's a whole lot of movement on Gods and away from us and that it's like God is fully immersing us and holding us and surrounding us in His love and goodness. And I think that whenever we stray away from that, whenever we choose non life, you know, the easiest way to understand it is kind of like what I wrote.

We actually begin believing that we are the source of that life which can become very prideful and very disconnected and it can become a place where we start feeding into the false self and running away from our true Divine Self.

Seth Price 38:57

Now, I like that and I like that metaphor. I'm going to, well, luckily, I'm recording this. So I'm going to write that down and use it again. You have and I think it's I don't believe it's a chapter. I think it's a sub chapter, but you talk about repentance. And you frame it in a way that most people listening to this, most in the English speaking world, think of repentance, like a tent revival, Hellfire and brimstone, you know, repent and turn away from what you're doing. But then you break down that we don't really translate the Greek word, and I'm going to say it wrong. So I'm not going to try to say it. Not-not very well in English, and that we need to rethink the way that we posture ourselves to repentance. Can you go into that a bit?

BA 39:46

Yeah. So again, I need to kind of balance it by saying that I don't want people to be worried that this book is a theology book because it's definitely not. I spend just a little bit of time. And one of the chapters going into some of this because of the story that set all of it up talking about an experience within the church, where I heard a specific speaker talk. And so I start getting into some of these words that we that's invaded our collective psyche that haven't served us well in the way that we understand them.

And so what I've done is really just tried to go back to the heart of in the essence of what the words are to help us kind of re understand and reorient around them. So one of the words is repentance, which, you know, 99% of the people listening to this probably would say, yeah, I mean, that's a word that means to turn 180 degrees around, to turn away from seven to whatever I mean, I grew up in that as well.

The Greek word is μετάνοια (metanoia). And what we find with metanoia, which then later in the book, I go into describe it even more of how within In the Greek world, they would have understood this word and some of their, their stories that they would have had at the time is that metanoia actually means to be transformed; it's kind of not so much a light switch turning off and on, but it's this gradual slow progression that's happening over time.

And it's not, you know, something where all of a sudden, because we've had this idea that, you know, well, once you turn the switch, then you have to be God’s and you have to be changed, and you have to be and it's like, well, I'm not sure that that's necessarily what the word repentance is getting at; its that there is a lifelong process of shedding off the old and becoming new. And I think that that's really true, more true to the heart of it, because what this policy says, He talks about the renewing of our minds, and I think that is a process and it's something that's going on, rather than something that happened at one point in time, where a did it take or not, should I get rebaptised do I need to say good words again?

Seth Price 42:04

for the 87th time,

BA 42:06

Right!

Seth Price 43:08

Yeah. So I wanna, I want to bring our conversation to a close with this specific call, and maybe some best practices. And so if I'm able to set find a place to set aside time to look for beauty intentionally, in this horrible mess of whatever country it is that you happen to live in. I think they're all in a similar space except for, you know, maybe someone that doesn't have the internet yet, which….they're winning. So, how do we recognize and how do we hear and most importantly for me, how would you say that we should document and record experiences that we see beauty to be able to reflect back on? Because one of the things I'm worried about is that and I would call that like a mystical experience. And I have no issues saying that even though I know many in the church would would would take issues with, with using that verbiage for different reasons. I don't believe that they are listening to this show, but I know many would say that and, and when I retail and I relive mystical experiences, if I'm not careful, I alter them, and I change them. And so I'm, how would I, you know, what do we do to look for those specifically?

And then how do we make sure that we record them and preserve them in a way that they can impact us for years to come?

BA 43:34

Yeah, I mean, some of it's gonna be really practical. And I think that some of it you stumble into. Jesus always said, for those who have the eyes to see in the ears to hear whenever he was referencing the kingdom of God. And I really think that that's true. I mean, there are practical things that people can do but then other times, you just have to have the eyes to see it.

I was sitting on my couch many years ago, and at the time, I just had my two daughters and one was seven, one was four. So that would have been about 10 years ago, 11 years ago. And I was suffering from severe body pain, which I've dealt with for the last 19 years and I was post supper my wife's cleaning up the kitchen, my dog is going crazy barking my daughters are playing very screech(ily) really loudly in the family room, and it was the kind of playing that just grates on a parent's nerves and I had all those (feelings) kind of right there at that moment. And I just remember putting my head back on the couch.

And I just started crying and I thought this is the most beautiful experience that I could ever imagine. And you know, I've got my kids right here with me. I have my dog with me running around like a wild animal. You know, it was a really surreal moment and I had another I don't know if I put this one in the book but I had another experience where I was in Denali in Alaska. And we've been backpacking all day and it's pouring rain, 45 degrees, just horizontal winds with nowhere to duck into, to take a break or get respite.

I sit down and just sat in the rain and ate my snack and the cold. And one of the guys looked at me, and I said, You know what, on a scale from one to 10 of this being the absolute worst experience ever, or an absolute greatest moment ever being at 10. I said, this is and I think everybody's waiting for me to say a one. And I said, this is an 11! Because you could be working right now.

And, you know, again, it's like I was in Alaska, but it was the perspective and whenever you talk about that, I mean, there are practical ways that people can enter into it by having some really, and I don't discuss any real practical things. I don't think in the book, but having discipline in those areas of finding respite or, you know, Jesus was very good about, even when he was busy even when people needed him around, he ducked out just to find space to pray and to breathe. And so I think that there's some practical things there, you know, whenever you talk about documentation, man journaling would be huge. I think sharing your experiences with your close friends, just so people can hear where you're going. And what you're experiencing-is huge.

I have my phone that I took with me to on one of the trips and on the microphone, I would just talk into it and just talk about like, what I'm feeling and what I'm thinking, what I'm experiencing what I'm learning. So I think the practical ways; on the other side of it, you know, I really wholeheartedly believe that despite our circumstance, despite our situation, no matter how good, how bad, how painful, how beautiful, that there is a deep well of God's goodness that we can tap into that supersedes and transcends every circumstance that we're in where we can find the resident goodness of God and all things.

And it's something that doesn't make sense. It's something that defies all logic defies all convention. But it is there in that moment, even whenever you least expected, it can be right there in the most broken, heartbreaking moment. And, of course, I have stories of that in the book about where that's happened. But I say, I don't want people to think that it's simply, well, you know, if I change a few things about what I'm doing, then I'm on the track to have everything right. And I think that there are disciplines that we enter into, but at the same time, I think that there is a deep well of God's goodness through the Spirit that can teach us and show us how to exist within this terrible tension at times.

They can give us a peace that surpasses all understanding, even when everything around us is wrecking and breaking and hurting and sad and any reach that we can have peace in that moment.

Seth Price 48:03

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah or as, as you, as you say early on in your book that we can have peace and have it abundantly or have life and have it to the fullest. Yeah, that's right. Well, Brandon, where can people obviously the books on Amazon, where do they engage with you though?

BA 48:20

Yeah, there's a couple of spots. One is easy one is BrandonAndress.com. That's my blog. The one that points directly to the book where you can get free sample chapters where you can get the promotional videos there. The places where the books for sale is beautyinthewreckage.com. So that would be an easy place. If people want to check out my podcast, it's Outside the Walls where find podcasts are delivered, distributed, whatever you say.

Seth Price 48:49

I've never quite come up with a good way to say where to find it. I usually just say it's on the internet, you'll…

BA 48:56

…you'll stumble on it somewhere. Yeah, it's

Seth Price 48:58

Yeah you'd have to try not to find it. If you were looking for it.

BA 49:01

Yeah, one thing I will say, and I don't know when this is going out, but Amazon actually ran out of my book and that is encouraging. But it also says that it's gonna be one to two months. I think it's going to be much sooner than that. But, you know, don't fret, you can get the E book for 99 cents and also order a physical copy to come in.

Seth Price 49:22

I saw that actually, I intended to ask you that. But I am curious now. Because after you talk to someone for an hour, you feel like you know, I'm a bit, but I know that as of recording on October 15-16th (2018), whatever day it is here, at least for today. You were you were superseding Joel Osteen. And a part of me likes that because he blocked me on Twitter because I called him out for proof. So part of me likes that. But how do you feel about currently out selling Joel Osteen?

BA 49:49

Well, to me, I don't really care about the ranking so much. But I will tell you this is that whenever you look at the rankings, and you see all of the people who are typically at the top, we'll just use him as the example. You know, I think that there is, I'm gonna say a different way. I think I'm praying that there's a hunger for more substance. I'm praying that there are people that break beyond the circumference, break beyond the edges, and are hungry to get into something deeper. That's deals, I'm not going to say that he doesn't deal with real life but it's certainly one element of real life that is maybe skewed one direction, and at least from my book, you know, making the pitch for it is saying, I do not run away from the heartache I don't run away from the pain, the suffering or the division and conflict. I don't even dismiss it, I take it on, full on, and and I walk people through it and so for me, what I see are people who are starved for a message like that. And I really feel like that the more people that pick it up and kind of read through it, we'll see, you know what I've felt that or I've experienced it. That's what I'm hearing from people more times, even in parts that I didn't think that people would resonate with that much. Those are the words that people are sending to me saying, No, that's where I'm at right now. That's exactly where I sat at the kitchen table when I looked out the window, and I thought, What am I doing with my life?

And so I think that, you know, we've spent so much time on the cosmetics of, you know, even within the churches of just going through the motions or standing on the edges or being super superficial, that people are just hungry for depth and honesty and vulnerability above all things.

Seth Price 51:37

Absolutely. Well, Brandon, thank you again, so much for your time this evening. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it tremendously.

BA 51:44

Yeah, me too. I hope we can do it again. And I am so honored just to be on here. So thank you

Seth Price 52:18

Imagine what it would look like if we took the time to slow down intentionally, myself included, I am the worst probably person in the world at that a lot of that is self imposed, pretend to not have the ability to say no sometimes. But I've been challenged by so many authors and theologians and just conversations this year to make space for something holy, to make space for something beautiful and to not be afraid to let things break and as Brandon would argue, there's beauty in that.

I know as Alexander Shaia would argue, if we allow Christ, God, the divine, to hold us back together, that breaking when we become whole again is more beautiful than before, but we may not be the same and we have to learn to be okay with that.

A very special thank you to the Windtalkers for the use of their music and today's episode, you'll find links to hear their music and engage with them on social media in the show notes, as well as those tracks will be listed on the Can I Say This At Church Spotify playlist, remember to rate and review the show, thousands of you listen weekly, hundreds of your review. Let's make those numbers match.

Anyway, regardless whether or not you do I appreciate each and every one of you and I'll talk to you next week.