Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

Brandon V 0:00

You know, it's just like this incredible just like work of what it looks like for human to lose a world view in the moment and, you know, with the emotion and the smoke in the room that music can provide the context that music can provide, that can't be said in lyrics. And, you know, it just was so honest and so helpful. Feeling that, you know, I thought that and especially after reading it kind of in that two hour sit down with the book, you know, as kind of a, you know, documentary kind of format thing in a couple hours, you know, it's just like, this undeniable thing that, you know, there was there was something really helpful happening here. And this was, you know, pre-Trump, you know, pre-kind of the, you know, defined Yeah, like, like the American church hadn't defined itself as specifically as it had after the election, so it just, you know, you kind of knew that there was a lot of cancer in there. But you know, it wasn't obvious on a large scale.

Seth Price 1:21

Everybody, welcome back to the show. I'm excited that you're here. A little bit different type of topic today. So I spoke with Brandon Vedder. Now, Brandon is unlike most of the people that have on the show. He's not a theologians, not really a pastor, and he that he is a filmmaker. He's an award winning filmmaker. What he does is he kind of tours around with different types of people documenting a bit about what that life looks like. At the beginning, we talked about silence and the concept of silence, which really stands out in some places that I wasn't expecting. And then we also talk about idolatry. We talk about music Music, we talk about the church we talk about people leaving the church and the faith and some of those reasons. And we do it all through the lens of an artist called David Bazan, who is and was and now is again, the lead singer of Pedro the Lion.

And if that's an artist or a band that you're used to, I mean, you need to hit pause, go to the show notes, click play for a bit, listen to some of his music. I think it's really going to give context to what you're going to hear today. So I really hope that you like this. I greatly enjoyed talking to Brandon, let's do it.

Seth Price 2:53

Brandon Vedder Welcome to the podcast. excited to talk with you really actually excited. I don't know if it was you or Keith Giles, that gave me permission to watch the screener version of Strange Negotiations. And then it was definitely me that didn't watch it and try to contact you before it aired real time. So apologies for that.

Brandon V 3:15

No apologies needed.

Seth Price 3:16

Thank you for your generosity, or Keith’s I'm not sure whose generosity I really enjoyed it. So welcome to the show. Yeah, yeah.

Brandon V 3:23

Thanks for having me, stoked to be here.

Seth Price 3:26

So I always start with the same question because I like it. And it's a good way for me to kind of figure out what I'm allowed to ask you or not. So what would you want people to know about you like, what is kind of your story? And then we'll kind of dovetail that into, like, how you got in to doing documentaries, like why that matters. And why strange negotiations?

Brandon V 3:47

Yeah, you know, that's such an interesting question, because it's kind of like nondenominational in its approach, where it's usually like a professional question, you know, like, about, you know, as a filmmaker or whatever. So yeah, it kind of opens the scope up quite a bit more.

Seth Price 4:13

It's almost like hundreds of these.

Brandon V 4:16

Right. Yeah. You know, I think I'm really interested in trying to kind of unravel mysteries within myself and the things that I've kind of encountered in life and in the communities that I've been a part of, in a personal way, you know, in hopes that that's helpful for others, you know?

I was doing an interview for the last film. Actually, when I was in production on this film. I did this interview with this journalist who had went back and watched all my other films and noticed this movement towards spirituality in the films, you know, as because I started making concert films and you know, touring with rock and hip hop acts, and shooting concert films, and then kind of got more into social issues stuff. And then, you know, made a film about silence and humans relationship with sound you know, in a very, it's kind of, you know, more experimental walking through that to this film. I think that that's, you know, like we the things that translate the best of the things that you're really interested in and that you have a stake in and you personally have, you know, maybe some some demons to deal with. So, yeah, that's kind of that's been my approach just, you know, trying to figure out the things that that kind of turned me on and and go after those things in hopes that other people you know can be helped by them.

Seth Price 6:13

Would you call yourself religious you because you talked about you know filming and kind of searching for like I forget how you said it that's I'm badly doing this you know where you know there's something in the work that you're doing this kind of speaking to something that's going on like are you religious now or are you just really like music? How do you get there?

Brandon V 6:33

Yeah, you know, faith has always been this just the most interesting thing period to me. It's this kind of superpower you know like it is so uniquely human. It is the thing that sets us apart and it can be the best thing and the most beautiful expression of humanity, and it can also be the very, very worst.

It allows us to be our best (and) to be our worst. It allows us to imagine the most beautiful things and the most terrifying things and do those things. So, you know, to me like that’s storytelling. Yeah, you just there, you can't pull them apart. And so, you know, I've always just been so interested in kind of people's expressions of faith and if someone is willing to die for something, or someone's willing to give their life to the study of something like that feels worth it to me. To at least engage with a little bit and, you know, try to kind of understand.

But yeah, you know, in terms of the faith that we deal with in this film, kind of the American evangelical tradition. I wasn't, you know, like, grew up, you know, kind of church, Jason had a had a pretty. I was born in Chicago. And, you know, we ended up out in California after a while, but had kind of a pretty tumultuous upbringing. So it was more, you know, survival then, you know, like trying to get to church every week or whatever. And it wasn't until we kind of landed in this sleepy town in northern California. Later in high school that I got involved in, like a youth group and, you know, started to this version of the things started to be laid out in front of me in a way that I found pretty compelling.

And so that that started the journey and you know, it's definitely been a…Yeah, there's always there's always been things about this expression of it that has made me deeply uncomfortable and just doesn't seem like the point. It's a hard thing to just kind of whole hog be like yeah this is my tradition. This is how I view the world because it's not that simple but there's also so much about it that that I do see and you know it's been interesting with turn this film people you know asking just straight up and you know in front of a 300 person audience like what do you believe right now?

Seth Price 9:31

You personally?

Brandon V 9:33

Yeah at a q&a after the screening.

Seth Price 9:35

Oh, that's not fair. That's too many people there to have a good time. I mean, unless everybody knew going into it you most importantly, this is what we're going to talk about. That seems like an unfair question. I might would ask you that on this show. I'm not going to By the way, but I take that back. The last question that I asked, I'm asking everyone this year is gonna be like when you say the word God, what do you mean?

So you go ahead and get that in the back of your head. Yeah. So I have a question. What the heck is a concert film? Like? Is that the same thing as a documentary? Is that a music? Like what? What is it? I don't know what that means.

Brandon V 10:09

Yeah, you know, it's really just, you know, kind of like, what's that channel on TV that just plays concert films…

Seth Price 10:17

VH1?

Brandon V 10:19

No, it's like, what the heck is it called, but it's just a live. You know, it's just like a capture of a live show.

Seth Price 10:25

So like Coachella. But all day every day.

Brandon V 10:27

Yeah, yeah, totally. And so it's like, you know, I did one for Pearl Jam. And it's like, Pearl Jam live at the garden, you know? So it's like, f specific show that, you know, was special in some way. And, you know, we decided to release because of something.

Seth Price 10:47

That’s cool. I told Spotify to play me good music on the way home today from church actually. And that's what it played. I listened to Alive from Pearl Jam. I can't remember the name of that album. It's pink…is it 10 is that the name of that?

Brandon V 11:05

Oh, yeah, that's me first record.

Seth Price 11:07

Yeah. Oh man. I was like it literally started. I was like, I can't…and just cranked it because it's 70 here in Virginia today, I just rolled the windows down jammed like it was a summer, really into I forgot how good the song was. Anyway, I didn't mean to talk about Pearl Jam, but it's not often that that anyway, right. Yeah, it works. It works. Well. Spotify is learning me a bit too, too well. I have a question about silence. So I want to relate it back to why you think silence holds so much tension in the relationship, especially when we think about God. But prior to that, I just recently listened to a different podcast called 20,000 hertz. I don't know if you're familiar with that show or not. It's literally by a guy from America somewhere in America. His name is Dallas Willard, but I don't want to say he's from Dallas, because I'm sure he's not Dallas Taylor Dallas Willard. dollar. Yeah, any is he runs defacto sound I think is the name of his company which like does like music and stuff for movies and video games and…but in one of his first episodes is here's why the NBC chime works. And here's the story behind the NBC chime.

And apparently there's a fourth note that they play like when the President declares a national emergency like there's like a fourth, instead of boom, boom, boom…there's a fourth note, which basically means, like, get to the TV. World War four is happening. kind of thing.

Brandon V 12:33

Oh man, I love those old school broadcasts were like those little things.

Seth Price 12:39

He’s done so many different episodes. It's called 20,000 hertz I think it's the last thing that you can hear on the spectrum. There's one called 4‘33. So it's four minutes and 33 seconds. That's composed…Are you familiar at all with this song?

Brandon V 12:52

Yeah, John Cage is the composer. And, so the film In Pursuit of Silence we kind of you know, profile five or six different people's pursuit after silence

Seth Price 13:10

Was Cage in the film or Cage’s work?

Brandon V 13:12

Yeah, yeah. Well, you no, he's, he's, he's passed now but we his story and his kind of finding of silence because, you know you started off as this crazy ass noise musician, you know, just like this avante guard, you know…

Seth Price 13:33

programmed pianos that what was called something like that.

Brandon V 13:36

Yeah, just you know, like all these patch bays and all this crazy shit.

And he, you know, when he found silence, that was this really kind of specific era in his life. You know, and and everyone says that, that he kind of never stopped smiling after he found and forged a relationship with silence and kind of you know, the, the understanding that it's always there that it's, you know, this, this kind of beautiful bath, that that we get to enjoy. Regardless of whether we are cognizant of it or not, but just, you know, it was kind of like God for him. Where it's like, there is this this Omni presence of silence that, you know, we're breaking it, you know, hopefully only you know when it's important.

But yeah, so him and his journey toward silence. It started with him kind of stepping into this thing called an anechoic chamber, which just kills any sound reverberation and it's maddening. I didn't know actually that I had tinnitus into you know, which is crazy ringing in your ears from all the concert stuff until I went into an anechoic chamber and was like, “Oh, dude, so out loud”.

Yeah, so yeah, he was a big part of it, you know, there was we spent a lot of time with a monk, a Trappist monk in Iowa, and then a Buddhist monk in Japan. You know, a guy that it was his job for the National Park Service to preserve the natural quiet of the parks with kind of the power of the government behind him. In terms of just like, creating, you know, or maintaining what this piece of land always sounded like. Someone said, just like

Seth Price 15:38

So what is that just a perpetual guy that drives around saying “get off my lawn. Get out of here!”

Brandon V 15:44

Pretty much

Seth Price 15:46

(Laughter from both) Thats a great job “you get out of here, you’re too loud!” I want that job!

Brandon V 15:52

Oh, dude. It's amazing. Yeah, that was an incredible experience and just like, such a rad, nerdy thing to be able to kind of travel over and see these people that are so committed to this pursuit. Yeah, this kid walked across the United States over a year in silence. He was one of the guys in the film and kind of…

Seth Price 16:22

I’m gonna have to watch it. I was not like that other production company that you talked to where I watched everything else. I didn't do that. But that sounds. So when I listened to that was actually folding laundry or ironing clothes.

I'm that guy that like iron the shirts for the whole week because then I get like 10 more minutes of sleep time, if that makes any sense? And I had on like, a nice set of speakers on my on my ears. And, and at the end of that podcast episode, he's like, Alright, so we're going to do four minutes and 33 seconds, you're gonna listen to it in its entirety. But because we're so uncomfortable with silence, I'm going to tell you right now you're going to have two minutes and nine seconds of silence and then you become back on for a quick second. Now 30 more seconds. And he’d come back and, he's like, and this will be the last time you hear from me. We'll talk to you next week. Don't-Don't hit, don't hit stop finish with it. And I was really uncomfortable with it because I come down to the basement, the mess of a basement that you saw earlier. And, like I tried to do like the exam and and other things, but even down here in the hole, it's still not silent. You know what I mean? It's not silence.

Brandon V 17:25

Yeah, no, it's crazy. I mean, we we go further on that when we premiered the film at South by Southwest from your home state. And we got musicians to perform for 4’33 before every screening, so interesting because so we would have them, you know, do kind of like this palate cleansing piece of music, nothing lyrical or whatever, but just kind of like Yo, sit down, chill out, and then go into 4’33. You know, anywhere from You know, like a quartet to like this crazy ass rock band to this MC. And like, just, there's this…there's such a fascinating energy that happens in a room. You know, when you're silent for four minutes and 33 seconds, you know, it's like, because you get really uncomfortable. There's just tension. Yeah. And then you get over it and then you get uncomfortable again, and then you get angry.

And then you know, like, but it points back to you. Which is, you know, the thing that I think is so genius about it. And so genius about kind of, you know, at first I thought it was bullshit, like when I was just like this art school, blah, blah, blah, before I really knew much about John Cage. And then when I realized it, that you know, when or when we started doing it, I just realized this incredible power. And just the uniqueness of that moment where, literally, some people will never have the experience to be in community and silence That one their entire lives.

Seth Price 19:03

The most current film; I didn't realize how long we've been talking, but what that's talking about that but I've enjoyed it. So is it Strange Negotiations? And so it kind of follows what is it four years? Five years? 10 years? How many years? Were you following? Four years of the life?

Brandon V 19:17

Yeah, like three years, two and a half years. And it took about four years to make it all.

Seth Price 19:23

Yeah, so the life of Dave Bazan, which if people don't know that name, he is the, I guess the voice, of Pedro the Lion, which is a fantastic band, and many people know that band. I don't think as many people know, David, because you kind of check out when people stop singing things that you want to hear. Because you can do that you just turn the dial on the radio.

So what possesses a person, Brandon, to go you know what I want to do? I want to jump in this little car and just ride around with this guy. Like what possesses somebody to want it like why? Why David? Why?

Brandon V 20:01

Yeah, no, it's it's a really good question because it is, it's so hard to make. It's so hard to make an independent film, you know, something that, that people aren't clamoring for, you know, something that people aren't asking you to do that you just are kind of like through the sheer will of force, you're going to push into this world and talk people into the fact that they need to see this. Um, so yeah, like it, it was. Yeah, it's a hard decision because, you know, my other films, I've had more collaborators making the other films and they've taken, you know, three or four years each.

And so I can, you know, I knew what I was getting into to a certain extent, so I had to be really, really sure about it. And also just like, the the weight that it has on my family and finances, personal health and blah, blah, blah, but You know, I was finishing in pursuit of silence, and was kind of sensitive about what what was kind of next and where I was interested in going next.

We were living in LA at the time, and I had this shoot in Mexico. And so I just grabbed some podcasts, you know, earlier in the days of podcasts. And this guy, Pete Holmes, this comedian. And he had David on the podcast, and, I remember Pedro the Lion, you know, and I had, I had a couple of their records growing up high school and stuff, and then kind of lost track. And but I remember, you know, him singing these hymns. And I just, you know, I remember that there being this kind of like, really fascinating depth to what he was doing. You know, when I came across it in high school, because that's kind of when I started to have my own kind of understanding of the existential.

So it had a good connotation right away. And then, you know, they had this hour long conversation that Dave walked through this journey, and walked through this world view with this candor, and kind of a reverence, but but, you know, personally irreverent, systematically irreverent, maybe or politically irreverent,

Seth Price 22:27

Probably all the above.

Brandon V 22:29

Yeah, you know, in a way that I had just never heard before, you know, he tells the story of after he lost, you know, kind of officially, you know, let go of his faith. This, you know, these panic attacks that he would have at night, where he felt like God was coming to him and threatening his kids to eternal damnation. The stuff that people just don't you know, don't really talk about, you know, kind of like, but yeah, so anyway and then there was just this beautiful love for this community. It wasn't kind of like this, you know, Hitchens or Harris or you know, new atheists kind of like “you're an idiot if you believe you know, you're a lemming blah blah blah opiate for the masses”. It was very much like you know, he just embraced the tension of losing his worldview in a way that was crazy.

So anyway, super just kind of caught on fire by that thing, that conversation I went home actually and downloaded and put together all of his lyrics in just kind of like a homemade book on you know, eight and a half by 11 paper so I could read you know, in time this guy's life and you know, his artistic expression of this losing of worldview. Because it's all there, you know, from the beginning as a, you know, a guy that thought he was going to be a pastor, you know, to the end where, you know, he is probably closer to an atheist than he is now.

And so, you know, it's just like this incredible work of what it looks like for human to lose a worldview in the moment and, you know, with with the emotion and the smoke in the room that music can provide, the context that music can provide. That can't be said in lyrics. And, you know, it just was so honest and so helpful feeling that, you know, I thought that and especially after reading it kind of in that two hour sit down with the book, you know, as kind of a, you know, documentary kind of format thing in a couple hours.
You know, it's just like this undeniable thing that, you know, there was there was something really helpful happening here. And this was, you know, pre Trump, you know, pre kind of the, you know, defined. Yeah, like, like the American church hadn't defined itself as specifically, you know, as it had after the election. So it just, you know, you kind of knew that there was there was a lot of cancer in there, but you know, it wasn't it wasn't you know, obvious.

Seth Price 25:38

Thats the biggest understatement I've heard today. Kind of knew that there was a cancer. That's, that's a good way to put that I'm taking that I'm making it I'm not even gonna give you credit because nobody will know.

Brandon V 25:52

Man do it. That's that's a comment on your podcast, not on…laughter

Seth Price 25:58

Yeah, fair enough. So either way, I'll say I heard a guy say and I like it. That's what I'll say. Yeah.

Brandon V 26:04

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it was, you know, it was it that that kind of started this thing where it was like I think that there's, I think that there's a feature documentary version of this thing that's really helpful. That starts some conversations that I want to have. And I'd like to see other people having as well.

Seth Price 26:41

Just recipe questions for making a documentary. So I mean, just in recording the podcast like I thought about all the junk I'd have to carry around with me just to do this. I'd have to actually add another Mic like if it like literally, all the junk and so I thought to myself, as You are in, you're in people's houses. And if people don't understand what I'm about, then just go rent the movie because I'm going to talk like you've seen it. And if you haven't, that's your problem, and you should buy it or rent it, and then come back and finish the episode.

Because I have seen it, so we're gonna go with that. So you're in people's houses, like how do you do you have to get like expressed permission? Or is that just like everybody that bought a ticket tonight, by the way, I got a guy in the back, he's filming a thing. Just ignore him or in like, in the back of the car. Like I found myself. Like, I know that people don't talk to themselves the way that David was talking to himself in the car. Like when I talked to myself in the car, I don't speak in the second or third person like I just usually talk at the other people a like, like, logistically, how do you make that sausage like, like, you have to have waivers or like, all the things, how does that even work?

Brandon V 27:48

Totally. Well, I knew from the very beginning, approach wise that I didn't want to kind of rely on on more traditional documentary methods in terms of like sit down interviews and, you know, just, you know that I wanted to take a more narrative approach to it and more kind of in the moment fly on the wall Veritate approach. Where things are just unfolding in front of us because that's, that's really what was happening, you know, it was, it was really dangerous from the very beginning. Or was it was a fine balance, to make sure that it didn't feel prescriptive or suggestive in any kind of definite way. That the truth was, this is a dude that has embraced the tension of his life in many different ways.

Spirituality being one of them, this existence as a middle class musician in a dying kind of, you know, economy musically being one of them. You know, the negotiations between family and Baba blah, you know, all these things were being negotiated in the moment. And so it was really important to set myself up in a way to be able to just be sensitive and be interacting with those things and be able to fit through kind of any space.

And so, you know, the first tour that we did with the house shows, you know, and the house shows it very quickly, it became clear that this was the setting of the film. You know, this was his desert. He had kind of, he had, he was out in the desert trying to trying to find his way back and how shows were this desert. It was also an incredibly interesting environment where it's just like, you set up this pop up show and people come sit on your dirty carpet, or your Parents couches, with your memorabilia around and no one can be too cool in that setting. You’re peeing in someone else's toilet, you know, toothbrushes right there.

You know it's a really disarming kind of interesting thing. And Dave made the most of that in a way where he used that to help create this inclusive environment where people felt this Bible study-ish, you know, in the way that it goes down. And so, so yeah, on that first trip that we kind of did, actually, we we played a show in Lynchburg, Virginia, which is in the film.

Seth Price 30:42

So time-out. I was at that show. I'm not in your film way.

Brandon V 30:45

No way!

Seth Price 30:46

Yeah. So I went to liberty. When it popped up. I was like, that looks familiar. So I started scrolling back through Facebook. And I'm like, son of a!!!. Yeah, I was at the show. But again, I'm big fan of David and yes.

Brandon V 31:00

This goes into your question. Did you have any idea that I was shooting?

Seth Price 31:04

No, no, I don't remember that. But I'm always that guy that stands right next to the back door. Even now. So that I can just kind of leave without talking anybody at the end, whereas I don't really want too. Yeah. Which is weird considering I do this in my free time now. But there's a certain safety knowing that you're on the other side of the continent.

Brandon V 31:25

Well, but I think that that's an interesting thing, where it's like, and I think it answers your question to a certain extent; in a way in a way that's encouraging for me to hear is the idea was to be totally invisible in these things and even though there were three cameras going at the same time, and you know, I had a snake of XLR is going from them back to where I was recording it and a set of, you know, stereo mics in the background. The idea was that it does not change the audience experience whatsoever.

Seth Price 31:58

Well I think as well so I got used to at Liberty when they would bring bands, like filming was just a thing that bands did. So, like I think, I don't know what I remember thinking anything, but I know what I'm thinking now like, Oh yeah, they're filming. Okay, so is everybody else on their phones. You know.

Brandon V 32:17

Totally so totally. And that's kind of the nice thing about this era is like, no one has to know that it's anything more than just kind of personal archive. And so anyway on that first tour, which was in 2015, I actually had a another DP out with me a cinematographer, friend of mine. And it was incredible because we were able to really kind of strike the visual language of the film together. And it was so helpful to have him out there.

That was the last time I really had anyone else out. We shot for another two years. Because it's such a intimate thing, you know, like, everything in the film is so intimate in, in hotel rooms, in cars, you know, it's like, I'm always an arm's length away from Dave. And so I couldn't have a guy with a boom pole sitting over Dave. I had to figure out sound. The logistics of it was a nightmare—total nightmare; and, and it was like it kind of bonded Dave and I, and he's told me since in some of these q&a is after the screening that like that was kind of watching me lug in and out more gear than he had to every time kind of made him think that I was for real.

Seth Price 33:56

Did he offer to help?

Brandon V 34:00

No, which is good. That's the thing like he didn't ask me to make a film about him, it was very much like these two separate things happening and I wanted to keep myself separate from what he was doing. And he was varying levels of uncomfortable at what I was doing. So he wasn't really talking to the audience about what I was doing. I would get a hold of the person that had the house beforehand, and get their clearances and all that stuff. And it's easier to do groups. So you just, you know, you put a notice on the door as everyone walks in, and they're releasing their image at that point. When people would get into big conversations, you know, I would, I would have them sign a waiver afterwards. You know, kind of was a little bit more than just a general one.

And then the car stuff, you know, so it was between you know, podcasts and this kind of time in the car is what took the place of what usually would be like a sit down interview and the idea in the car which was also a nightmare because it's just the worst place, technically production wise, to do something like that you need pristine sound and picture and you're literally hurling through the world at 70 miles per hour changing you know, lighting and sound, you know, situations and, you know, but I a shitload of research beforehand and just found…I'm sorry, am I (allowed to say shit..)

Seth Price 35:45

You're good. I mean, we're 40 minutes in…but you're good. No, it's totally fine.

Brandon V 35:54

Okay. It's all been very tame thus far in terms of that.

Seth Price 35:59

You can say whatever you like.

Brandon V 36:02

So yeah, the idea there was, homeboy is in this driver's seat for longer than anywhere else he is in his life. This is his kind of homeostasis like, this is his thinking spot. This is, where he is most comfortable. And we would have these six, you know, 6-7-8 hour drives from show to show, and I knew that I didn't want to interview him.

I was very careful to not ask questions, because I didn't want answers in a specific tense. I didn't want an answer. It was just, it was starting conversation, because the idea was just to open the front of Bazan’s head and let the audience into this kind of process, the kind of work that he's doing out on the road.

And I had no idea if it was going to work. And I had no idea if it was going to be enough. But, you know, to the chagrin of some of the people kind of, on the outskirts of the film, I was pretty hard nosed about not doing interviews or doing interviews with anyone else from the band or his family, or, you know, it was a singular perspective film, for better for worse. That's just what it was.

Seth Price 37:27

Well, I liked that. So specifically, like, I would watch him talk with his kids, you kind of hear and talk with his wife. And like, there's just a brokenness in his voice that you also hear when he's singing. Like it just…it just made it. I mean, we've all been there—like I have to travel for work every once in a while or I mean, most of my family's in Texas like you know, there's just distance destroys things.

Brandon V 37:52

Well, and that's the thing where it's just like I'm I, I just have so much faith in humans as empathizers you know, and just emotionally intelligent people that can pick that shit up, you know that, that that there is so much nuance and…

Seth Price 38:11

I mean kids aren’t watching the movie, it should be adults.

Brandon V 38:15

Yeah. You know, it's, it's just in pauses in the conversation in you know, like, and and that's so much so much more of a complete and powerful telling of their relationship at that moment than it would be if I was interviewing his wife and like, how do you how's your guys's marriage? You know, like, it's all there in reality, and obviously, you know, it's not the full picture, but I think, you know, I think that they would agree that that you know, that I know that they agree that it's it's an accurate representation.

Seth Price 38:51

There's a question. So I wrote a few things that David said, and I'm curious, your opinion on that, because you don't really have an opinion in the film at least, not really. So there's two things that I wanted to ask you about so one of them David says towards it at that there's an attempt to sloganize the Christian culture. And then what does he say after that? Like apparently Yeah, he's like you know it's not a pruning issue it's a rip the whole tree down and burn it, most of Christianity is apparently cool with idolatry. But I'm curious your take on that, like when you hear David, or when someone says that to you, you know, “Brandon, stop sloganizing Christian culture and you kind of named it earlier, but I'd like you to drill to just drill there. What does that mean?

Brandon V 39:44

Yeah, you know, I think that we our brains and our, you know, our way of communication compartmentalizes and breaks things down in a way that sloganizes things and in a really helpful way, in terms of breaking down really complex ideas and can be in a really dangerous way as well. Where literally, the only important things are left out of these kind of axioms or retellings or… The point is lost very easily the nuance, you know, and that's the thing about the, the faith that Jesus Christ put forward, in my estimation is that it's just all in the nuance, you know, and it and it is so it's such a holistic kind of just approach, world view, that you know, like, it yet becomes really dangerous to sloganize, things into, you know, kind of market things.

But that's also human nature. So it's not this kind of like, crazy evil thing, I think that we in, in trying to understand things, we're, we're, you know, putting things in specific boxes and trying to break them down. When it comes to this question of idolatry, I really, really resonated with that, so he talks about that, because we watch, we watch him in real time, you know, and a factor of the film is that we're kind of traveling with Dave, as you know, the 2016 primaries are happening for the presidential election.

And all the way through the actual election and that was happening in real time. And we were, you know, really listening to that stuff on the radio. And the only way that I didn't, I thought that I could even mess with that is just like, if it was wholly personal if it was just, you know, like, it wasn't political, that it was about Dave's very personal experience with this thing.

And what that ended up being when Trump did get elected was this incredible feeling of, of, you know, like there's this cognitive dissonance there was this betrayal, because everything that he had been taught growing up by all of the people that taught him how to be a human was not being considered in one of these most important decisions in this American experiment.

And he was really hurt, you know, and he took it really personally. And it wasn't just like, You know, the republicans It was like, you know, the specific people in his mind that he felt really betrayed by. And so, you know, him characterizing that this kind of ability to vote against everything that that that you purportedly are about, for one or two issues as idolatry, I thought was was so fascinating. Because it's kind of turning this language of this culture back on itself in a really interesting way that hopefully people can understand and there is a check to it, where it's like, “oh, yeah”, like if we're willing to do whatever for to gain this specific thing. Then that's idolatry.

Seth Price 44:00

Right, that is what your worshipping.

Brandon V 44:01

Yeah, right, we are worshipping these things. And we think that we know better than the balance of whatever we believe in. And we're tipping the scales. And we're looking over things. And you know that's just not how balanced is talked about in the Bible.

So yeah, a long rambling way of saying I, you know, I thought it was helpful.

Seth Price 44:29

Yeah, there were, there's Gosh, I'm trying to read the lines 1,2,3 like…26 like things. So when I watch the screening, I started it on the, on the TV, because I'm pretty sure you email said, many people find something and they say, many people find it feel like open this up here and then play it. It just it works better on a bigger TV. But then I found myself needing to do other things. And so I pause it, fire up the laptop, move it to where I'm doing my thing and then carry it around the house with me.

And I just opened up a notepad and just kept typing into it. I resonated a lot with what with it with what David kept talking about. So I appreciate your ability to get him to be candid, yeah that’s the right word there.

So I two more questions for you. The first one is one that I alluded to a minute ago. So when you, Brandon, not Brandon's view of what David thinks, or your wife or your, whatever, when you say you, here's what God is, like, when I say the divine God, whatever you want to call it, use whatever metaphor you like, what do you actually mean? Like if you were trying to explain it to, I don't know, 10 year old or a 15/25 year old, whatever, doesn't matter.

Brandon V 45:42

Yeah, that's man, that's such a hard question. And I think, I'm so thankful that it gets to continue to evolve with us and that we can continue to be in process. So my answer to that today is so, so different than it would have been before this film or before I had, you know, my two girls or whatever and that's beginning to already answer the question is that kind of this unfolding version of what is possible in humanity and on this planet and, you know, in between each other. I think more recently, I have the kind of revelation of nature and self has weighed heavier to me than the revelation of Scripture.

And I've been in a process of kind of rebalancing these things. And that's the thing to me I think that it is…I believe I believe Jesus is who He said He was. I believe that; at risk of sounding super hippie and you know, that it is a balance you know that that's that's kind of what I think of when I think of it is just harmony and that expression through Jesus Christ and his his life here on earth. That expression through you know, all the revelations that we are surrounded by our gut, you know, all these things. But it comes back down to harmony and I think that love is possible in harmony. That's kind of the, the action version of God is love and the kind of passive version is this harmony.

Seth Price 48:12

Yeah. Love it. Love it. Thank you for that. I'm aware of how small, small that that question is so…

Brandon V 48:22

Well, it's good because people go wherever they go.

Seth Price 48:25

Yeah, I have yet to get the same answer yet. Yeah, there have been some answers that I'm like, I wasn't expecting that. That's beautiful. And other answers, you know, depend on the person. I like. Yeah, I like the way you said it. I kind of expected that. I won't tell them that. But other ones. I like that. I was, dude. I was actually taking notes or took notes. Yeah. Which actually with you, I did.

So the thing I wrote down was forging a relationship with silence. I'm gonna have to wrestle with that a bit. I like that a bit. But anyway, so, in closing, there's a lot in the film. And there's a lot that's hard to talk about in the film, because I find myself unable to voice some of my questions well. Partly because I see myself and I think a lot of people that watch the film are going to kind of relate to it and be like, I've been there, if I'm honest, I've been there. And if I'm honest, I'm still there. I fake it every time I go to church. Really, I'm really good at faking it because I know the language. So I can do that. So in closing, like, if there's something I didn't say, or something like, you know what, as you watch the film, here's what you need to hear. I wanted to give you like that last moment, like, Is there anything at all that you're like, yeah, I really would like to say this, and you don't have to if there's nothing.

Brandon V 49:46

No, I think that that's the goal, as a filmmaker and this kind of expression of art is that this thing can stand alone and that there there need no context or scaffolding that you need. That there's enough in there, and there's enough kind of threads of humanity, you know, that people can interact with, with something in a way that feels honest, even to the point where, you know, I hope, and was, you know, tried really hard to make a film that that was clear that you don't need to know who David Bazan is it any relationship with his music or anything like that, that this is the every man that just happens to be incredibly gifted at expressing himself as an orator and as a musician. And his life looks a lot like the way he talks so.

Seth Price 50:51

So where do people go so it's in iTunes, it's, it's probably at a website, I'm not sure where, like, where would you send people to, and then also your other films. I'm going to watch The one on silence, not today. It's late. Yeah.

Brandon V 51:04

For sure, yeah. I'm super interested to hear your thoughts on that. So yes, Stange Negotiations is on iTunes, it's on Amazon. It's on Vimeo. It's you know, pretty much wherever you you know, interact with stuff we haven't figured out the streaming thing yet you know, in terms of a Netflix or Hulu type thing, but for purchase and rental it's available on all those sites the the website is strangenegotiationsfilm.com. You know, all the socials are super easy to find. You know, and there's a lot of really interesting conversation around the film on those socials.

Yeah, and then you know, the past films, you know, in pursuit of sounds which which I made with Patrick Shin and the film before that The Source also with the Patrick Shin, they're both available on iTunes and yeah, I'm trying to think of the short films are on Vimeo. Yeah. And yeah, you know, don't let the internet guide Yeah. Just, I'm pretty it's all pretty easy to find.

Seth Price 52:22

Fair enough. Cool. Well Brandon, thank you. I've enjoyed it and thank you again for letting me watch the flick and and for your time tonight, I appreciate it.

Brandon V 52:31

I really appreciate you spending the time with it and shining light on it. You know, this may you know making art and trying to put it out into the world in this kind of independent way is is so difficult and I think now it's so much more helpful to be able to interact and engage with with a thinker like you with with a platform that you've curated with an audience. You know, rather than Facebook ads or you know, putting a snowboard up For some dumb thing that, you know, it's just like, there's so much noise out there that, you know, for you to, you know, engage in it thoughtfully and and have these questions and, you know, show your audience a bit of this. I'm super thankful for that.

Seth Price 53:15

That's my pleasure.

Seth Outro 53:28

This podcast is completely and 100% Produced by the patron supporters of the show, I would love to count you among them, consider going to the website. And you can contribute to helping the show grow and maintain in a couple ways. So you can give financially, there are multiple levels there. Some of the levels will give you early access to the show other levels will give you discounts on the merchandise like some of you would figure it out. Oh, I can do this. And I get the video of the show. The unedited version of this show. Early Access to the show different blog posts and big discounts on some of the merchandise show. I've recently also added a whole new lines of women's clothing. And then a couple new concepts where there's one where it's hard to explain, but it's basically the concept of the word religion unraveling into the word love, which I just love. The way that visually that metaphor, it's become my new favorite thing in there. I've already bought myself a few copies of it to go on different things might make it onto the mug, too. Who knows. But that is one way you can support the show the other way easy, quick, cheap and free, is just rate and review the show on iTunes and tell your friends and whatever your podcast player is of choice. Not every player will let you review things. But please do that if you can. It really does help other people as they're searching for different things as the algorithms tell them. And then lastly, tell your friends share the show. And if you'd like to engage further in open and honest conversations, there is a Facebook group that you can find if you just search Can I Say This At Church honest discussions on Facebook. It's a private group. You do have to answer some questions to get in there, but I love it. It is a privilege to be able to do this and again, could not do it without you.

So I'll talk with you next week and I hope you all are very blessed.