Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

Steve 0:00

So when I think about my story, shame was the thing that nearly killed me. Yes, I have PTSD from childhood sexual abuse. Yes, I have a diagnosis of depression and anxiety. But for me in the last, about the last 18 months, it is really become clear that shame was the thing that nearly killed me. All of those other contributors to mental health and all that, that are very real. A huge part of me nearly died by suicide, but the shame of all of those things was worse than all of them combined. And so, I think if the church is going to change—I'll answer your question by telling you I'm pretty hopeless about it, don't see it changing, but if it is going to change, it only comes by all of us telling the truth.

Seth Price 1:30

You are listening to the Can I Say This At Church podcast? I am Seth, your host. Glad you're here. I'm glad you're listening. Today I sat down, via Skype, with Steve Austin, who is many things. He was a pastor. He is an author. He's a life coach. He's a podcaster. But predominantly, I love the way that that man uses words and his sense of humor really hits home for me, and you'll hear that a bit in this episode. And so here's what we talked about, as we run the rat race of life at a breakneck pace, and then we get home and we don't slow down. And then all we do is we go to sleep and we wake back up and we do it again. You never stop and we are killing ourselves. It's killing us mentally. It's killing us physically. It's killing our families. It's killing our marriages. It's killing the church. And so how do we catch our breath? I don't know. I still don't know. But I do know it has to be intentional. And so that's what we discuss a bit of what it looks like, what the issues are, and what ultimately, it will mean for our relationships. If we do intentionally try to live a life in which we're able to catch our breath to go to the next thing I really hope you enjoy. Here we go with Steve Austin.

Seth Price 3:25

Steve Austin, thank you so much for joining the Can I Say This At Church podcast! I know we've been working on this feels for like about a year, and as life will do when you, you know, you have a full time job and you do other things besides a podcast. You know, in kids, other things come up and so I appreciate your flexibility and your willingness to be able to come on today.

Steve 3:44

I don't know anything about any of that, but I'm sure that must be difficult for you.

Seth Price 3:49

Really?

Steve 3:51

Yeah! (sarcasm evident)

Seth Price 3:52

I feel like you're lying.

Steve 3:54

I am. Yes, you're absolutely right. Can I lie at church? I don’t know!

Seth Price 3:56

A lot of people do.

Steve 3:59

Sure. It's what Hear. Thank you so much for having me, though I know this is gonna be a great conversation. I'm looking forward to it.

Seth Price 4:04

Yeah. And so for those that aren't familiar with you, you used to be a pastor, you're an author, you're a life coach, you also run your own podcast and you do a lot of work in self care, psychological care. And by that I mean just, you know, taking care of your brain, your mind and yourself. But besides that, what else would you want people to know about you?

Steve 4:22

What else? You know, the most important thing is that I'm Lindsay's husband, and I'm Ben and Caroline's dad. Those are my favorite roles in the whole world. And that's, it's more important to me. And the reason I emphasize that is because those weren't always my most important roles. Those are the roles that sort of got shoved to the side, because I'm, I don't know how many of your listeners are enneagram people, but I am an enneagram three, all day long. And when I'm not healthy when I'm not my best self, that enneagram three means I'm just…I'm constantly striving, I'm constantly performing and working to prove myself and trying to climb the ladder and get my name out there. And so in years gone by family just was just sort of they got the leftovers. And boy these days they're my everything. And if they're not good, I'm not good and everything else gets put on hold. So it’s been quite the journey.

Seth Price 5:22

If you knew my pastor, this would make more sense, I am begrudgingly seeing truths in the enneagram that I don't necessarily like mostly because I don't like to deal with emotions, at least externally. If that makes sense. I'm finding that I'm either a five or eight depending on my days, I guess. But it makes it where I can't sleep sometimes because I can't stop thinking or needing to read the next thing. But I do know I've heard similar from my pastor who also has said he's in enneagram three and his best self, he's filling other people up and in his worst self. It's all about me. I'm the one on the stage. Listen to me. You know, I'm doing nothing but turn it on. Yeah, if I remember right, I was able to interview Suzanne's Stabile, and I think she said America, or Richard Rohr has called, I think she said that Richard Rohr had said that America is like a three nation.

Steve 6:25

God that is so true.

Seth Price 6:27

You know, so it that's the capitalist mentality, I guess of? I don't know. That's probably that's way off topic. It doesn't matter.

Steve 6:33

Oh, it's so on topic.

Seth Price 6:34

Have you always liked the enneagram?

Steve 6:36

No, absolutely not. I have become familiar with the enneagram actually since writing this book. So within the last year, I had heard it tossed around had no idea what it was was another one was weird Christian personality things gross. And I am real tight with the guys from the Inglorious Pasterds. And I’m in their group like I'm in your group on Facebook and the enneagram comes up all the time. There are people in the it's called the pastor's pub. And there are people in the pastor's pub that talk enneagram non stop, and I kept pushing away going, Yeah, right, whatever. It's just a crock, you know.

And finally decided I'm going to look at the types and just have an idea of where I am. And a friend of mine, Holly Oxhandler who would be a phenomenal guest on your show. She is a social worker, she's associate dean of social work at Baylor. And she's crazy about the enneagram. And she said, look at the unhealth, look at the descriptions of who this particular person is in unhealth and when I read the three in unhealth I wanted to puke

Seth Price 7:52

It’s painful.

Steve 7:53

I thought Oh, my, surely not. Surely that's not me. And surely that is 100% me. So yeah, not always…not known about it really just about a year. And, I'm not one of the people who worships it. But I think, like anything else it can, if it teaches me something about me and teaches me something about the people in my inner circle, then yeah, why not take a little peek at it?

Seth Price 8:16

I'm beginning to like it more, but I still hate it because. But like, as I was talking with Suzanne, I told her like, I think it's I don't know how much talk I'm going to put in it. here's, here's what I think I am. And I was like, but I don't think that's right. And so she rattled off what that looks like without even knowing me. And she was correct. And she's like, and I'll bet on your worst days you do this. And for some reason, you keep getting put in positions of leadership, and that's because of this. And usually don't even ask for it. And you usually succeed and you don't even know why. But that's just because and I'm like, I don't…I don't appreciate you being in my business like this because you're in Texas, and I'm not and we don't really know each other. This is uncomfortable. But you have a book, which I appreciate you sending it to me? entitled catching your breath that comes out this month in October, I think it's the 22nd. So two weeks from recording now three weeks from recording, talk to me a bit about that. Because as I followed your blog, and I've listened to you on other podcasts, and I've listened to some of your episodes of your podcast, some of it was new information but all of it really hit home for me so why did you feel led that you needed, because it's a very personal book, why did you feel led that this needed to get this out?

Steve 9:34

Okay, so we're going to talk about the enneagram again. (Laughter)

I'm a three and again, in that striving, needing to grow needing to grow numbers needing to grow the mailing list, grow downloads on the podcast, increase the stats on the website, you know, all of this numbers, numbers, numbers. I said, it's time for a new freebe for my mailing list. So my first book is From Pastor to a Psych Ward. And it's a very personal book to, and much, much shorter book about a third of catching your breath, and in length and words, but it is a very Christian book, and it's very much a mental health book. It's all about the lead up to trying to die by suicide when I was a pastor. And so it's very Jesus centric and and all about mental health and recovery.

And so that's been my giveaway for people who sign up for my mailing list for a couple of years and (I) got bored with it and said, You know, I need to come up with a new download. So I'll write some sort of a pamphlet for people who are just overwhelmed. So the goal and it being for the mailing list, it ended up being the same goal once I realized, Oh, this is actually a book. But the goal is in this book to spread a larger table. So I want to be real clear up front, this is not a Christian book, there are going to be, there's language that Christians are going to find very familiar and comfortable. And then there are things that some Christians are not gonna find very comfortable.

But it's not intended to be a Christian book and it's not intended to only be a book about mental health. So this book is my goal is let's spread a larger table, that whoever you are, whatever background as far as faith and spirituality, if any, you're welcome here. And you don't have to have a mental health diagnosis for this book to be, I think, incredibly helpful for you. Because you don't have to have depression or anxiety or PTSD or anything else, to just feel completely Lately overwhelmed and stressed out by life. So the books are very spiritual book, I do talk about my spirituality, which is colored through the lens of God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But it's not only that.

Seth Price 12:16

I know in the book, and this is something I've heard a few people say it and I don't know if it's just, I don't want to do it a disservice because I hear everyone say it, you know, because people will latch on to a word without really knowing what it means, for instance, the enneagram, or they'll they'll say that there's something and not really do the work. And so in it, I mean towards about the first third, you talk about millennials in the church. And you say while being a “Christian, agnostic” feels lonely, that your experiences are typically raised. You know, most people in the millennials were raised in an evangelical church. And so how do you define Christian agnostic? What does that even mean?

Steve 12:56

This is, I think one of the most important pieces of this book, it's why it's there close to the beginning. So the definition that I use in the book for the word agnostic, is this,

a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic.

So what does that mean for me, it means that I still keep the teachings and the example of Jesus at the center of my life. But I supplement my spiritual journey with principles from lots of other traditions. And it also means that I'm comfortable and I lean far, far far into this ”I don't knowness” of being an agnostic. I'm more certain today than I've ever been about being completely uncertain. And I don't think that makes me less of a Christian. It probably makes me less of a Western evangelical Christian. Because I won't claim to the certainty or the black and white answers that I was raised on.

But I think if you, if you look at sort of the ancient versions of Christianity, you it might be more comfortable for some people to say, oh, Steve is a mystic, that's fine if that's what you want to call me. I'm okay with that. But I embrace mystery. And that's, that's more in line with who I am these days that, if there's a God, I want a God who is bigger than anything I can grasp. Because if I can sit here at 35 and I've got it all figured out. I think that's a pretty small God.

Seth Price 14:49

So you don't you don't have it all figured out, then that's what you're trying to tell me.

Steve 14:52

That's exactly what I'm saying. I don't have it all figured out. My faith is filled with holes.

Seth Price 14:58

I would echo that. But I'm not comfortable calling myself Christian agnostic, but what you just described is when people…because people will ask me, Well, what kind of a Christian are you? To which I don't really ever have a good answer? Because I end up leaning on, you know, I, you know, I don't believe in inerrancy and I really get more out of, you know, contemplative prayer, and the Examen and Lectio Divina and none of that was taught in the church that I grew up in.

The church that I grew up in was an emotional honestly that might be why I don't deal well with emotions is just thought about that. Now, who knows there's probably more to it than that. But the emotional parts of religion are I find what keeps drawing me back to Christ, not necessarily scripture, although that supplemented, which I think is when most people hear that they say, well, you have that inverted that should be scripture first and then anything else supplements.

Steve 15:55

I don’t know. I don't worship the Bible. I know a lot of people do I’m not one of them.

Seth Price 15:59

So from what I see of the church, especially today, they seem to only be concerned with half of us. There's, you know, the part of me that's here now. And that's the part that breaks when life breaks the part that you need to catch your breath from, for a play on words from your book, but the church doesn't seem overly concerned with that they really only seem concerned with the soul, and nothing for now. So how do we make space for that? How do we open up real space for the world as it cracks open because it's gonna crack. There's no way to not have things bust open daily. I mean, you know, your car will break down when you had other plans, like other things happen that you can't control. But I feel like the way that we do church now does not prepare us for that.

Steve 16:49

We, yeah, we like everything clean and neat and simple. Don't make waves. I think, really where it begins is In most churches, and you'll see this a lot of church signs come just as you are. But I don't think we mean it. I think that we say, Come just as you are and within about two weeks, we want to know what committee you're going to serve on. And are you interested in being in the choir? And could we put you on a nursery rotation? And there's nothing wrong with that. I know, it takes volunteers to make an organization like that run. But my push here is, I want to make sure that we have sat down and listened to the newcomers story as much as we've preached the transformative power of Jesus.

Preach it absolutely! But let's get to know our people first know their situation. One of my favorite pieces of Scripture, if not my absolute favorite, is Matthew 11:28-30, and I especially like how The Message says it Jesus says

Are you tired, worn out, burned out on religion? Come to me, get away with me and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me. Watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won't lay anything heavy or ill fitting on you. keep company with me. And you'll learn to live freely and lightly.

And so for this, let's, you know, let's just make up this character here, this newcomer, who's either never been to church, or they were in church as a child, and then they got hurt and life happened and they sort of ran away, and now they're back and they're hurting, and they're covered in shame and they sat in the parking lot for five minutes wrestling. Do I really want to do this? Am I really gonna go in there today? You know, my kids were just crazy this morning trying to get all three of them ready. I'm a single mom. I'm exhausted and I know how church people are, do I really want to do this? And they find the courage to show up anyway, and they hide in our Pew in the back, keeping their head down, trying not to be noticed. How do we make space for that person or for the person who shows up with a mental illness? For the person, whatever, whatever their situation is, that just doesn't quite fit the norm of church life?

I think it is to say to church people, I don't need you to be my psychiatrist. Because hopefully I've already got one. I don't need you to try and fix me. I don't even necessarily need you to understand me. I'd love for you to try. But what I really need is for you to sit with me if I'm sad or I'm hurting or I don't even have good words for what's going on in my life. Tell me Jesus loves me, absolutely! And show me that through your love. Show me that through your acceptance. Show me that through your patience. Tell me come just as you are, and mean it; and be a friend, and be the friend who seeks to understand and seeks to listen more, even more than you preach even more than you preach the gospel. Just be the gospel, just live it in front of me.

Seth Price 20:33

So if I'm the pastor of a church, I've gone to seminary, or I'm not the path maybe I'm a deacon, it doesn't matter if I'm in leadership in a position that people will come and speak to me. And then we've created a community that people feel comfortable, to be honest, to be, you know, to use the names of one of your chapters you talked about earlier, some of the words in there won't, won't work well, but I love, I love, your chapter names… specifically the one Nekked and I'm not sure if I'm Saying that right…

Steve 21:01

Nekked, draw that e out

Seth Price 21:02

I haven't used my Texas accent in a long time; but if people do that if they come to the church, and they talk about their addiction, and they talk about their problems, it's quickly going to escalate to a place that if I have a seminary degree, or if I have just even life experience degrees, I'm not qualified to probably help them with some of these issues. So how do I bridge that gap? Because I feel like that's why so many pastors don't do this. So that's why so many churches Don't do this. Because if I do this, and it works, I'm not prepared to handle it.

Steve 21:42

They're gonna be lined up out the door to get in, if you actually create a safe space. And I think that's it. I think that's what we we are lacking in so many places. Look, I'm not a church hater. I'm not. There are churches that are doing it well. I just sort of think they're outnumbered by churches that aren't doing well. So, yeah, create a safe space, take AA from the basement of your church and put it in the sanctuary. And watch what happens when you've got these men and women at the end of their rope showing up, desperate for honesty, and acceptance, and you model your church after something like that. Yeah, it is….Oh my gosh, it would be the most amazing things.

So all right, I'm the pastor, and I'm not prepared for that. I don't have a counselor. You know what, probably in seminary I had one counseling class that's probably it. Okay, so, so say that and bring somebody on staff that has a counseling degree, or bring in volunteers and create this, this network. My God, every church in America should have a little List of counselors in the area or agencies in the area that help whatever your particular needs are and again, not just about mental health, but okay our church is not equipped or I as the pastor, I'm not equipped to handle this particular issue in this person's life. Well get to know people in your community that are, don't make it the, you know, I'm the pastor show, and I've got to be able to do everything. Like, you're not that great, number one, but take the pressure off, don't like I don't even mean that to be a jerk. But just like you shouldn't have to do all of that. And I think that's, that's one of our big struggles is if I'm the youth pastor, I want to be the guy in the spotlight. I want to be the guy playing the guitar. I want to be the guy speaking and teaching. I want to be the guy leading the church like I want to be the man, but it's so exhausting to you. Number one spot burnout is insane in church. You know, I think most pastors last in about two years, and they're out of there, because they're really totally worn out, because they're not surrounding themselves with helpers.

Seth Price 24:09

Yeah, when you say burnout after about two years, I have to assume those new comers out of seminary because the people that have been doing it for 30 years, I feel like they've already built that support system where they don't have to change anything, or am I wrong in that?

Steve 24:23

Yeah, they either have that support system, you know, and I mean I'm pulling this out of thin air, but they I'm assuming they either have that support system, or their churches, the country club where nobody goes that has issues or they wouldn't tell you if they did. So we just play the church game and that's pretty easy. I'm just running a business and you know, given three Jesus points on Sunday, we all go home. (Laughter from Seth) Pretty East to be Mr. Rogers, if everybody in your church doesn't seem to have any issues. Don’t get me fired up Seth I’m trying to play nice here.

Seth Price 24:58

Haven’t belly laughed like that in a while. So, you talk a bit and you talk about it while you're talking about how your, you know, your faith was deconstructed man. I feel like most people stay in deconstruction mode. They never move past if we're thinking about the stages like, who is the psychologist, Fowler, the six stages of faith they never really get out of that deconstruct, but they just wallow away and wither nothing other ever feeds back, but you talk about you had to step away from the religious machine. What do you mean by religious machine? Do you just mean the institution of the church? Do you mean K-Love like what are you saying is the religious machine?

Steve 25:53

K-Love! (in laughter)

Seth Price 25:54

Absolutely. I have to think that's gotta be where you are is it not?

Steve 25:48

Oh my gosh, we could be friends. That's so awesome. The answer's yes. Okay, can we talk about politics?

Seth Price 25:56

Sure.

Steve 25:59

Okay. Because I don't know that I can answer this one without talking about politics. So, for me it's the marriage of bad theology, and dirty politics that has created this bastardized version of American Christianity that I can only imagine has to be breaking God's heart. So for me, if Donald Trump is a Christian, I don't want to be one. Please, please don't lump me in that basket. Because I'm not that and I'm not perfect. My God. Please don't go investigating my past because there's plenty of mess.

But I think that we, the Christian machine, sold our souls to gain influence, to gain more political power by voting him in office. And for me, that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I think it has split our country wide open. And I don't think it has anything to do with political party. You know, I mentioned Mr. Rogers a minute ago. But that’s the stuff I was raised on Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. And so, for me, I think, before we're ever called to be anything, Republican or Democrat, or Christian or anything else, I think we're called to be kind, and decent and respectful, even to those that we completely disagree with. So, man, just we're so polarized. We're so full of outrage. And I hate to tell people that Jesus is not a Republican or a Democrat. And the only way that we're gonna make America great again, is by choosing kindness and compassion, and understanding and having conversation. If it's true, that the Bible says the greatest weapon in the world is the tongue then let's use our tongue to build people up and not tear people down.

Who said, Oh my gosh, who was it? I don't remember somebody said I'll remember later that Jesus never said we would be known as his disciples by our morals, politics, or what we oppose, but by our love. So, I think that what we're becoming as a nation on both sides is anything but great. And I think that the evangelical church has married the Republican Party. And in doing that, I think we've denied Jesus.

Pete Rollins, talks about denying the resurrection he says,

I deny the resurrection of Christ every time I do not serve at the feet of the oppressed. Every day that I turned my back on the poor, I deny the resurrection of Christ when I close my ears to the cries of the downtrodden. And lend my support to an unjust and corrupt system.

So, when I look at the church marrying politics and constantly pushing aside the marginalized, I think we're denying Jesus and that's not something if there's any hope for me to be a Christian, I can't be that. And I think it's about more than just our gay friends. I think it's, it's fear, I think fear of the ”other“ is tearing us apart. And I think there's this. I don't know what has happened. But there's this idea that everyone else is the other. And the truth is, there is no other. We were if there's the other we're all the other.

And so, I think that we've got to get back to the message of Jesus. If we're going to call ourselves a Christian. Then let's Embrace people that need help, and hope and stop talking about building stupid walls..

Seth Price 30:07

to make more “others”

Steve 30:09

Yeah. And go to the orphan and go to the widow, the immigrants, the refugees, the less fortunate, anybody listening to this podcast, let's go to those people and stop fearing those who don't vote like us or pray like us or dress like us or have sex like us. Let's stop doing that because Jesus…what did Jesus say,

you'll know me by your love for one another.

And so yeah, I'm stepping away from the Christian machine, which has been bought out I think, by angry, fearful, powerful, wealthy, old white men, and I don't want anything to do with that.

Seth Price 31:29

Did you see in the news, I agree that's been bought out. Did you see in the news? Also, can I just back up? If I had a mic to drop audibly on a podcast that last 30 seconds there I would drop a basket of mics…

Steve 31:44

You can ask me about the Christian machine, oh my gosh!

Seth Price 31:49

Well, I agree. The part that makes me mad is, especially lately, I see things from a decade ago that I put on Facebook and those memories. But I also kind of like it, it's like a time stamp and I can see my heart progressively changing. Because I talk a lot about God on social media. I talk a lot less about the about politics now. But I talked a lot. I've always talked a lot about God on social media. But it's odd, you know, something from 10 years ago will pop up and I'm like, I don't even know that I don't even I don't see how I could have ever even put that sentence together. And then I see something. You know, like I did today talking about Amos and your worship song, stop being a whore with the way that you treat me when you worship me. Like you're doing it wrong. And I'm like, those can't be from the same brain. but so did you have to have seen the news? I have to think Biola I think changed their stance on same sex courses. Like you can go there now, if you're affirming and a bunch of evangelical backing basically said if you do this, we're taking our money. And they said, Okay, take your money. Which I like, but I don't know how long that's tenable.

Steve 32:59

Well, it's better than whatever the other school is who did that a few months ago and then just reneged on it.

Seth Price 33:09

Oh, really?

Steve 33:11

Yeah. I'm not going to remember right now, which is terrible. But yeah, there's it's a school out west. Oh, it's Azusa, it's Azusa. Oh, as soon as it did the same thing and said, You know what, we're affirming now you you can be open in your relationships and all that and it lasted….

Seth Price 33:23

It lasted until the endowment fund went below whatever it needed to be and then we have to refill the coffers. How do we deal with our experiences? And the reason I say that is, as I was reading your book, I was away from my family. I was in a hotel room by myself. I was reading your book, I was dealing with emotions that I don't like to grapple with. And then I also read a book called faith in the shadows, written by Austin Fischer, a pastor talking about pastoring with doubts and struggling with whether or not you can still be a Christian but still having to have a job. And this is what you've chosen as a vocation.

And then there was the news of the pastor a few months ago, I believe from California that committed suicide, young, young, 30 year old, you can't remember his name. And it was too much. It was too much emotion for me. And so I went on Twitter and I said, you know, what would surprise your church? If you asked it, which I took directly out of your book? And it got more traction than I anticipated it to?

Steve 34:18

Oh, I want to go see that. I missed that one. I'll have to go look at it.

Seth Price 34:20

Yeah, well, just, you know, just a bunch of people saying, what I asked is,

what would happen if the church friends found out that you have more doubts than faith these days?

And I said, I feel like I know what my community would say. But what would your say? And then, you know, just people talking about, you know, I think my church would cast me out and find a substitute to fill in like, just a bunch of people. And there are other people saying, you know, I feel like I'm in a good place, or this is why I don't go to church or, quite literally, I can't say this at church.

How does that change if we think about the religious machine, and we think about we have to be nekked, we have to be open. We have to be honest, and we're going to have to deal with all the crap that comes with With that, and I don't mean that as a metaphor, like I just mean that because I don't feel like cussing. How do we fix it? Is it going to change or is the church just gonna explode? And when my son's 40 it'll be that thing is like, it's like the Amish communities of today. Well, it's Yeah, they're, they're localized. They're pretty good people. But we don't really yeah, we let them do their thing.

Steve 35:22

Yeah. Well, I think the question is yes, it the answer's yes. It's it is either going to change or Yeah, it's it's going to implode.

Seth Price 35:33

Which do you think it is?

Steve 35:38

I think it's what I just said it's either kind of…the only way that it's going to change I do think is people on the inside, changing it and I'm not really on the inside anymore. I go to church about once a month. I speak in churches from time to time. But I wouldn't call myself an inside guy anymore and that's probably unfortunate. I'm honestly feeling a little convicted just saying that out loud right now, because I'm saying it's probably only going to come from the inside.

If there are people patient enough to be tender and kind with the church; if the church is actually the bride of Christ. She's looking pretty rough these days. And she needs a makeover from the inside out. Not the Chris Tomlin song.

But I think the problem in all of this is fear, shame and guilt based theology. Especially shame. So when I think about my story, shame was the thing that nearly killed me. Yes, I have PTSD from childhood sexual abuse. Yes, I have a diagnosis of depression and anxiety. But for me in the last…about the last 18 months, it has really become clear that shame was the thing that nearly killed me. All of those other contributors, the mental health and all that, that are very real, and a huge part of me nearly dying by suicide, but the shame of all those things was worse than all of them combined. And so, I think if the church is going to change I'll answer your question by telling you I'm pretty hopeless about it. I don't see it changing, but if it is going to change, it only comes by all of us telling the truth.

Shame is Brene Brown says,

Shame is this fear of not being enough.

So I'm a pastor serving in a church every week and I am taking my pills, my prescription in my lunch box, into the bathroom in the church office, locking the door, locking the stall, taking my lunchbox and they're taking my pills out of the lunchbox and taking them in the frickin bathroom stall. Because I am so scared to death of anybody knowing that I'm crazy, which is a terrible word that we should never use. But in the world I grew up in, you could be Christian, or you could be crazy. But you couldn't be both.

You couldn't be a Christian and have chronic struggles. And so I have to think there are…I know, I know from conversations, there are countless other people doing the same thing and they think they're, they're not enough they're not husband or wife. or father or mother enough, are Christian enough or strong enough. And so the only way that we move forward is to go back to an earlier question make space for the ones who crack, acknowledge their humanity. Stop talking. Just listen, just be present. Be really gentle.

Do you remember, in school, we like on on field day or something in elementary school, we would do all these games, we have a free day somewhere toward the end of the school year. And one of the games that we would play, we would have an egg on a spoon and we do this relay race. Did y'all ever do that?

Seth Price 39:41

I hate that stupid game…I'm so bad.

Steve 39:45

And you're so careful. Because if that egg falls off that spoon, you're done. And I think that's what we've got to do with everybody in our church, including the ones who look like they've got it all together. We’ve got to realize that we are all or we have all been at some point, that egg and so we've got to be kind and patient and gentle and tiptoe slowly. It's in the book I talk about the the guy that invalid in John 5, the guy who'd been waiting for healing for 38 years by the pool of Bethesda. And Jesus comes along after 38 years of this guy sitting there, you know, begging, Jesus comes along and says,

Get up, take your mat and walk.

And he doesn't send him to dip in the pool or seven times in the river or put mud on his eyes like the blind guy or send his disease into a herd of pigs or write in the sand like the adulterous woman. Jesus just gets on his level, looks him in the eyes, acknowledges his humanity and gives him permission to get up and leave this place that he's in and boy, I can't imagine there being a more shameful place than where this guy is for. I mean, as long as I've been alive.

So I think that it is our job. If we're going to be if we're going to call ourselves the Church of Jesus Christ, like if we're going to be Jesus brand ambassadors, then it is our job to repair the cracked places. But maybe that's not even right. Maybe it's just our job to be present, because really, the church couldn't fix me. I had to acknowledge my wounds first.

Now, had I been able to acknowledge my wounds openly in a safe community and had somebody say, “Please keep coming here and let's also get you to a counselor, and you're probably going to need some meds and we're going to love you until you can love yourself”. That would have changed everything for me.

Seth Price 42:04

Yeah. Speaking of cracks, are you familiar with a Japanese method of repairing pottery? I read about it from Alexander Shaia, I think it's called Kintsugi. But basically that you know that when things crack open, that is what the church should be in Christ should be it's, we're going to put it back together, but I'm going to infuse it with something precious, not just makeshift, and then fuse it with preciousness, and when I'm done putting you back together. You will be glorious. Like you will look better than you did before this isn't some cheap, you know, welder that we bought at Walmart putting you back together. This is beautiful.

Steve 42:47

We ain’t gonna duct tape.

Seth Price 42:49

We might what, maybe that black duct tape, the fiberglass duct tape that you see all over the internet.

Yeah. I want to end with two questions and one of them will be personal and so if you don't want to answer it, just tell me and I'll get rid of it. As you've gone through this, and for those listening, if you're married, or you're having a spouse in your life, or people that are very close your grief and shame and fear and guilt is going to rub off on them. And as we work through it, how do we protect those relationships? And then what is hope on the other end? Because from what I read, it sounds like you're in a much better place. And so what does that kind of look like? Because I feel like if we leave people with, here's what you need to do, and we don't talk a bit about here's what you're going to expect that I’ll do a disservice.

Steve 43:35

Yeah, that's very fair. Boy, what do you do? it, you take a risk. You take a great big risk. You know, my I feel like I'm the most blessed guy in the world. So I wake up in an ICU hospital room. I spent three days there, I'm numb from the waist down, can't feel my legs. They're trying to figure out if my liver is going to do its job and flesh all this out, or if it's just going to stop working.

And then I spent a week on the psych ward. And all the while my wife's family is saying, leave, get out, you got a little baby to think about, come to Florida leave him he this dude is a wreck, and you didn't know it and it's not your fault. And now six years later, I can look back and go, you know, that's kind of fair. That they weren't actually wrong. They just didn't have any compassion.

And Lindsay went home to our little baby boy who would turn a year old the day after I nearly died by suicide. And she's holding him in her arms. She's looking at him and she says, I saw so much of you in him already. And I had to believe that your worst day didn't define the rest of your life and that if you are willing do the hard work, if you're willing to go to counseling, if you're willing to stop lying and hiding and running, and tell the truth, I will stand by your side—if you promise to not hide from me ever again, even when it is so completely uncomfortable. If you will tell the truth and ask for help, I'll go with you.

Boy, the answer for other people. I don't know. The answer is for you, the person in the crisis, tell the truth and ask for help. You can't control their response. And that kind of sucks, I’d really like to control the response.

But you hope for the best you hope that they're going to be willing to go with you. And, if they are or if they're not. You go to counseling, you go to therapy, you tell the truth. You ask for help from a professional, and it's gonna be messy. You are gosh, I was talking to my friend Matt last night who's recently started therapy. And he said, you know, your, your pain and your dysfunction and the darkness, when you start bringing it all out is more painful and more dysfunctional and more dark than you ever imagined. And your joys and your hope and the goodness is more joyful and more good and more full of life than you could have ever imagined.

It's, it's both, it is both. It is acknowledging the joy and the pain, the light and the dark and not trying to cling to one and push the other away. But just realizing that we're whole people. And the other thing that I would tell people is, don't expect this to be fixed overnight. If you're going to counseling because of infidelity, or you're going to cause someone you love is in just a crisis. God's not going to snap God's cosmic fingers. And suddenly everything is okay. Typically, that's not how it works.

But if you will hold on to one another hold on to hope. If you are the spouse of someone who's in whatever crisis this is, you need a support system to you need, you know, that ride or die homie that you can tell everything to and say, Man, this is the worst. This sucks. I'm sticking through this, but I'm not loving it. That's okay.

Seth Price 47:34

If ever there was a 90s reference, ride or die homie.

Steve 47:38

Yeah, you gotta have a ride or die homie.

Seth Price 47:40

We're definitely from the same generation. I don't know how old you are. But I feel like we've got to be close because there's not too many people too many years that use that. (35) Then we are Yeah, we're less than a year away. So there's not too many generations of months that people that use that in common place. I want to end with this and so you tell us Story of your grandfather and going out on a boat. And the reason I want to end with that I'd like you to break it apart a bit is I feel like all of us focus on things that don't really matter. And then when things break apart, we don't know which pieces we need to try to save. Which pieces are worth the effort. And at least that's what I hear when I read that story of you and your grandfather in a boat and trying to make it back to shore. So can you go into that just a bit?

Steve 48:28

Yeah, let me pull it up it that's actually not me and my grandfather, it's a friend of mine and his grandpa.

Seth Price 48:32

I did it wrong.

Steve 48:34

It’s okay.

Let me I'm gonna get it pulled up here. Give me just a second. So yes, this is chapter seven. And the title of this chapter is throw everything over. So I'll just read you a little piece of it.

One Friday night, in late May, about 25 years ago. My friend's grandpa called. Hey, kiddo, why don't you pack a bag and come spend the night I've got a surprise for you. Andy swears he knew what it was right away. He had begged his grandpa to take him fishing for months. All he could think about was how much fun they'd have in the old flat bottom boat, and how many fish they'd catch. Sure enough, fishing was the plan. Andy could hardly get to sleep and he was bouncing like Tigger The next morning, Grandpa placed a finger over his lips. Grandma's still sleeping, don't want to wake to bear when they got to the lake and he helped his grandpa load up the boat. By the time they were done, there wasn't much room for them. There were two fishing poles a jug of water, a lunchbox an ice cooler a beat up coloring book and crayons grandma had packed just in case little Andy became bored. There was also a coffee can full of dirt and worms net to bring in the catch a battery powered radio sunscreen life jackets, two paddles, a trolling motor and grandpa's wide brim hat. The boat to say the least, was pretty full.

So the story goes on from there. They push out into the water and they're about halfway out across the into the middle of this lake and his grandpa turns around here's Andy in the in the back of the boat splashing around in the water. And he says,

Hey Grandpa, this water is really cold.

His grandpa's like,

Oh my gosh, I forgot the drain plug! No way.

And so the waters getting higher on Andy's legs and grandpa dumps out the can of worms and he starts scooping up water from around Andy's feed and it's it's just too late. And he tries to crank the trolling motor and the trolling motor won't crank and grandpa's cussing, and he's grabbing a paddling, paddling as hard and as fast as he can to get back. But there was just too much in the boat and too much water.

And so the famous line “is throw everything over Andy.” And my buddy tells that story and he just laughs his head off at this memory, because they made it back to shore and they were safe and they lost the boat and their coloring pages are floating on top of the water. I could just picture it being such such a mess. But I think it is the best if I throw everything over when you're drowning. When life is happening to you, rather than happening for you, when you're completely overwhelmed, and everything is coming apart, throw everything over. Whether that's, you know, you're drowning under family stress, or financial stress or work demands or whatever it is, when your boat is sinking. You've got to throw over all the non essential cargo, if you want to make it. That's the point of that whole chapter.

Seth Price 51:53

And so how do we how do we know what's essential? Is it just me and my family?

Steve 51:59

Yes. You know what the answer to that is yes, in some ways. My friend Sue to whom this book is dedicated. She says, if we're not married, and you're not coming to my funeral, your opinion doesn't count.

Seth Price 52:18

I like that.

Steve 52:20

Yeah, like, you know what, that kind of shrinks the numbers down pretty quickly

Seth Price 52:22

I think I'm making that my Twitter bio right now. I like that alot.

Steve 52:26

You're not married? You're not coming to my funeral. Your opinion doesn't count. That's all. Yeah, you have to look at what you have to do, versus what you feel like you ought to do versus what you really want to do. So what what do I have to do? I have to work because I have to pay the mortgage. I have to pay the power bill. I have to feed my kids. I can't send my kids to school naked. I got to have to do those things. I have to show show up for my wife. Because if I don't eventually she's gonna stop showing up for me. And same thing is true with my kids. Yes. The Essentials when you're in absolute crisis mode are the people that live in that same house with you?

Seth Price 53:14

Yeah, that's good. That's good. For those listening. You need to go and get this book. And by the time you hear this, it may have already released, it may be two by a day, but if not, you need to go and get the book. And so Steve, where where would people go to obviously is going to be available on Amazon. But how do they get in touch with the book? How do they get a copy of that? And then how would they reach out to you if they feel like myself, so lead to talk about it a bit more?

Steve 53:41

Yes. So I'll give you two sites. To get the book. You just type in catching your breath calm, and all that's going to do is it's just going to take you straight to the Amazon page, but rather than having to go search and do all this, just type in catchingyourbreath.com, and the book is available in ebook paperback and audiobook Look. So if you're like me and you don't have time, or you'd rather just beat you know, listen to a book as you're driving to work or whatever, man download the audiobook, it's me narrating the book. So if you can handle this Southern accent for a couple hours, there you go. But yeah, it's catching your breath, calm. And then anything and everything me if you want to connect with me on social media or send me an email or read my blog or follow my podcast, you can do everything by going to I am Steve Austin.com. Awesome.

Seth Price 54:28

Well, thank you again for coming on, Steve.

Steve 54:30

Thank you, my friend. Oh, this has been so much fun. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Seth Price 54:36

So much there, so much there, I would highly recommend going and getting a copy of catching your breath. It's different than what you would think it's, it's a book written from a personal perspective. It's highly personal, highly emotional, and deeply touching. And I honestly think can be life changing if we take some of the practices from it, and really intentionally make it happen. And then as we talked about in the episode, make that change in your faith communities, be that the Christian church or beat whatever the churches, we all have similar issues. So catch your breath, figure out how to be better for yourself and then take that and use it to impact someone else's life. I really hope you will. In closing, shoot me some feedback on the show should email at CanISayThisAtchurch@gmail.com, let me know what you thought on Twitter. holler at Steve Austin on Twitter. Dude is everywhere. We'll talk to you next week. Be blessed.

Seth Price 55:50

The music that you heard in today's episode is by Harbor at Sea. Please support the artists that graciously shared their talents with the show. And the podcasts and I'm grateful for each and every one of them. As always, you will find the songs feature Today on our playlist on Spotify, finally so that Can I Say this@church.com.

Talk to you next week.