Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Brandan 0:00

My own version of Christianity and spirituality doesn't end, necessarily, with the church. I believe that there are so many people, I know so many people, that have vibrant connections to God via that vibrant spiritual life that have moved beyond the institution of the church as their means of expressing their spirituality. And people in my own congregation. I've seen so many young folks, especially young LGBT people, show up, stick around for a few months and kind of hear a different way of being Christian hear a different kind of Christianity, that really he'll get really excited and then move beyond our church because they decided to go express their spirituality in some different form. And I want to open our minds to say what if the Church's goal isn't just to create a big institution that keeps people for a lifetime. But what if we're continually having a revolving door where people can come in that connected and healed and some of them may move on and that's actually part of the process of how we build our church. That's what we expect to happen. We don't shame people when they decide to go to yoga class on Sunday morning instead of coming to church. Because I don't think institutional church is the end all be all and I think all the statistics of church decline around the world would support me in that.

Seth Price 1:43

Everybody, welcome back to the Can I Say This At Church podcast. As always, I'm Seth, I'm pleased that you're here. So happy that you downloaded the episode, and I can't wait to hear your feedback on it. If you've not yet hit pause, review the show on iTunes, podbean, Spotify wherever you happen to download this from, click pause, review the show, word of mouth and those reviews really do help the show reach more ears reach more people and I think the conversations that we're having here are worthwhile. today's conversation is no different.

I sat down with Pastor Brandan Robertson, who currently serves as a lead pastor at Mission Gathering Christian Church in San Diego, California. Brandan is a noted author, activist pastor, and he works at the intersections of spirituality, and social renew. He's authored seven books, including his most recent book entitled True Inclusion, which is centered around creating communities of radical embrace. And I think that that's the key. So what would our churches look like and what what our culture, our families, our daycares, our everything look like if we truly sought to be inclusive. Not to have token head pieces that fit in inclusivity bucket, but to genuinely create a space where people can come be themselves, if that's broken, if that's hurting, if that's not broken, if that's not hurting, but a place of true inclusion? I would argue and I think Brandan would argue that an atmosphere that looks like that is quite literally what the kingdom of God is, and it's beautiful. So I hope that you enjoy today's episode. Here we go. Pastor Brandan Robertson.

Seth Price 3:51

Pastor Brandan Robertson, thank you so much for joining the Can I Say This At Church podcast, I'm excited to talk to you and I'm fairly certain on the list of things that we are, quote unquote not allowed to talk about at church, the topic at hand, your new book, True Inclusion, is definitely on that list.

Brandan 4:11

Well, thank you so much. It's so good to be here with you. And I'm glad to talk about some things we can't talk about.

Seth Price 4:16

So, yeah, well, let's, let's change that then let's talk about it. So, tell me what would you want people to know about you? Kind of your story, your background, and kind of what's led you the big milestones of your theological journey to doing what you do now?

Brandan 4:32

Yeah, I think I mean, really, the biggest thing to know about me and who I am, is really the title of my first book, which was Nomad. That's what I've always kind of felt like I didn't grew up religious, became a fundamentalist Baptists on my own at 12. And then just had a crazy spiritual journey, but also a social journey and political journey and sexuality journey. And, really, my whole life up until this point has been crossing boundaries and exploring terrains and territories that I never expected to be in. But the way I would describe it is I have this insatiable hunger to follow the wild wind of the Spirit wherever it takes me, and it's taken me into a place and in a world that I never thought I'd be today. I'm a gay Christian pastor, and I'm also a political and social activist. And so I'm doing all the things you're not supposed to do together. And I could have never dreamed that this would be the path that I'd be led on.

Seth Price 5:34

I don't remember. So I didn't read your first book. I've only read your most recent and so what does that look like? Because most people grow up fundamental and then escaped from that. So I've never heard anyone say the inverse really. So what does that kind of look like?

Brandan 5:50

Yeah, well, I didn't. It's not completely inverse in that my family and they have given me permission to describe them in this way. But I grew up in kind of rednecky-conservative family in Maryland in a trailer park, and so not well educated but had generally conservative political, social beliefs, but really had no religious understanding at all. And funny enough, I did go to like a Baptist preschool but other than that, that was about the only foundation I had of religion growing up. And I had an abusive, alcoholic father, and just really found myself around the age of 12 in this place of hopelessness, I looked around my family, I looked around my community and saw that nobody was really going anywhere. Nobody seemed to have purpose. Life was full of suffering and pain, and I was suicidal and just really in a bad mental place. And my neighbors invited me to start going to church with them.

And so I started attending an independent fundamental Bible believing Baptist Church. That's what it said on the sign out front. And in that environment I encountered a God who even though the fundamentalist God that I encountered was one that was harsh and a judge, he was also a God who loves me and how to plan for me in a way that my earthly father never did. And so, I was really enraptured by Jesus, by the God that I heard and I gave my life to Christ. And that set me on this journey of faith exploration with and the other big driver was within four months of getting saved. I felt called to be a pastor. And so I started preaching and teaching and diving into theological study at such a young age. And that spirit of curiosity again has been such a blessing to me, but it also made me almost instantly a heretic because I had no family to kind of come around me and forced me into a certain theological category. I ended up going to church by myself.

So even though I want it to obey my pastors and all of that good stuff, I still had this spirit of curiosity and didn't feel too confined. And yeah, from that point forward, I got less and less conservative, frankly. And it took about probably 12-13 years, but now I'm a crazy liberal heretic. And that's kind of the journey.

Seth Price 8:24

I get called liberal often inherited more and more often as I do this show, but I wrote it down and I don't know when I wrote it down. But as I was going back through a binder full of notes, from about a year ago, I found a post it note that I'd written I'm not afraid of being called a heretic anymore. I wish I had dated it because I really don't know when I wrote it. But it is my handwriting. So I relate to that quite a bit.

Brandan 8:50

Totally.

Seth Price 8:52

So you're a pastor now in California, San Diego, is that right?

Brandan 8:56

Yes.

Seth Price 8:57

I've listened to a few of your sermons most of what I hear you say, I don't know that I would hear anybody call that heretical. Like I hear justice. I hear love your neighbor. I hear the gospel. And so I find it odd that people would think it heretical but that's okay. What is what is the the Genesis so your new book that came out in September 11? If I'm not wrong, was it was a number left? Yeah, True Inclusion. So thank you for sending it to me. And I will tell you, I'm, I've sent pieces of it little screenshots to friends and the way that you speak about the kingdom of heaven and inclusivity. And what the gospel truly is, is is beautiful.

Brandan 9:42

Thank you.

Seth Price 9:43

Yeah, absolutely. What is kind of the genesis of that? What caused you to write that because I know in the past, you had had book deals that fell through and I don't really want to rehash any of that that's all over the internet and all over many blogs that are easily accessible for those listening. So So what made you Do you want to to write True Inclusion?

Brandan 10:02

Yeah. Well, the easy answer to that question is I didn't. So yeah, I worked on a number of books. And this was the first one that a publisher came to me and said, essentially, we have people coming to us asking for a resource. But one, we don't have to, we're not really sure who can talk about it. But I've been in this space for the past few years, this LGBT Christian conversation. And I've also had a kind of extensive ministry working with churches, both privately and quite publicly to help them transition to be more inclusive of LGBT people. And the question that the publisher wanted to have answered was, what happens once a church finally embraces LGBT people? Is that the end of the line? Is that the end of the journey or is there something more?

And so I set out set out to write a book answering that question, I really had no clue where I was going to end up and over the course The two years that I really wrestled and wrote this book, I ended up becoming a pastor myself. And that really informs a lot of what's in the book, my first year of experience being a pastor of an inclusive church.

And what I discovered, is everything that I never thought I would write, I, first of all, started thinking about this issue of inclusion from a theoretical place. And really wanted to look at the gospel of Jesus. See how Jesus embodied inclusion and his life and in his ministry, and see what that would look like if it was applied in a church, to the extreme, today. And as you kind of already alluded to, the way I understand the gospel is Jesus proclaiming that the Kingdom of God has come and we're invited to participate in it. And when you look at what the kingdom of God is, it's the alternative to the empires of the world. And the empires of the world were built on patriarchy, every Empire around Jesus in the first century was built on this notion that the gods or that God had created one group of people, typically, cisgender straight masculine men that were meant to dominate and rule over women, people of color sexual minorities, socio economic minorities. And you see Jesus in His ministry time and time again subverting that both directly through what he preaches, and through just who he has relationship with.

And so I started thinking about what if we took this anti patriarchal gospel, this gospel that confront the powers and principalities of the world today, and applied it in our context, what does it look like for churches to confront, patriarchy and to take inclusion seriously. And what I came to was basically, it looks like these churches that kind of destroy themselves in some ways, that's the unexpected conclusion was that the goal of the church is not to be the biggest community, it's not to create communities of thousands of people. Rather, it's to create a community where people can come in, connect with God get healed from the traumas of the world, and of religion, and then maybe move on beyond it. Or if they choose to stick around, it's going to be a radically different kind of community that's always seeking to ask the question, who isn't included in this space? Why aren't they included? And what do we believe that forces them to be excluded? So that's a little tip of a summary of what I talked about.

Seth Price 13:37

What do you mean, that the church destroys itself, are you saying that that's the inevitable outcome of inclusion that the church doesn't need to be the church or am I miss hearing you say that?

Brandan 13:48

Yeah, I probably not the best way to say it, honestly. But what I the way I've talked about it in the book is I make a simple statement, that if you're going to embrace radical, true inclusion, you're never going To have the biggest church. I don't think that's necessarily true. But I think in our day and age, for most people who read the book if they work to take its message and its idea seriously. It's really hard to keep privileged people showing up in an environment where you're consistently making them uncomfortable. So that's one reason churches decline, automatically, when they start, including LGBT people when they start including people of color, so on and so forth. But the other side of it is, my own version of Christianity and spirituality doesn't end necessarily with the church. I believe that there are so many people I know so many people that have vibrant connections to God, via that vibrant spiritual lives have moved beyond the institution of the church as their means of expressing their spirituality. And people in my own congregation. I've seen so many young folks, especially young LGBT people, show up, stick around for a few months and kind of hear a different way of being Christian here a different kind of Christianity.m; get really healed, get really excited and then move beyond our church because they decided to go express their spirituality in some different form.

And I want to open our minds to say, what is the church's goal isn't just to create a big institution that keeps people for a lifetime. But what if we're continually having a revolving door where people can come in that connected get healed and some of them may move on. And that's actually part of the process of how we build our church. That's what we expect to happen. We don't shame people when they decide to go to yoga class on Sunday morning instead of coming to church, because I don't think institutional church is the end all be all. And I think all the statistics of church decline around the world would support me in that.

Seth Price 15:54

Yeah, I definitely agree. I spoke with with Soong Chan-Rah months ago, Dr. Soong Chan about that. And he basically said the same thing that churches are declining because of many issues. And if it weren't for immigrants coming in and rebuffeting the rolls, it would be in an absolute and total decline, which is disheartening. And I think it's why the church has to pivot. Why do you think now is the time that all of these pivots seem to be changing? Like, you know, women in ministry, social justice, LGBTQ, all of these pivots, or at least, maybe I'm paying attention more? Maybe they've always been happening, and I haven't been paying attention, but I feel like they're all converging to happen. Similar time periods. Why do you think that is?

Brandan 16:44

Yeah, I think I've three answers to that question. The first answer is, I really do believe that there's been a trajectory to human growth and evolution led by the Spirit of God for as long as humans have been on earth and I think it is inevitable that we're going to keep growing more inclusive. I'm hopeful in that aspect. The other side of things is a caution. All of the conversation that we see emerging in our public life and even in the church right now, around race, sexuality, gender, women, all of that; ll of that happened in the 1960s, as well. And it was a great 10 year period of lots of conversations about this. And lots of people believed that we have arrived at a new kind of progressive, inclusive world. And then the Religious Right happened after that. And we kind of had this awakening in the past election where we were all shocked out of our slumber least a lot of people and realizing that the change that we thought had happened in the 60s never actually happened.

So I also want to caution our own generation to be like, yes, there's a lot of stuff happening right now. But this has happened before and we need to make sure that we're actually doing the hard work of changing hearts and minds and building new ways of being in the world instead of just kind of affecting surface level change.

But the last answer to that question is, I do think there's a unique moment that we're in. I am hopeful that our country and our world at least much of Western and much of the Eastern world, has lived under this patriarchal way of seeing and being in the world for so long. And we've just reached a tipping point where, in the biggest and most powerful country, there are more women than men; in the biggest and more powerful, most powerful countries. People like the LGBT community and in America, the African American community for instance, have gained political power and gained religious power. And so there's finally this convergence of force that's able to begin actually threatening the way that society has been ordered in this patriarchal, oppressive way.

And we've seen it in the past two years in particular with the Women's March and Black Lives Matter and the LGBT rights movement, I think we're just seeing these forces be able to coalesce, because the patriarchy itself is weakening. And, in response, both the church and the government in the United States has taken this far right, swing. We've elected Donald Trump, we've seen the Southern Baptist Convention and other faith leaders do horrible things and release horrible statements over the past couple of years, as they're trying to grasp a hold of this patriarchy one more time and hold on to their power and privilege. But my suspicion and my hope is that we're finally out of place in history where through the work of the Spirit of God and through the bravery of people that have been oppressed by patriarchy, people are rising up and saying there is a better way to order our world a more equal and just way and in order to get there, we have to topple those in power, to put it aggressively.

Seth Price 20:05

You say early on, very early on, I believe in your book that the false gospel is a gospel that excludes. And I'm curious, do you think that we inherently exclude without even knowing it? Is that something that we've mentally have to daily try to overcome or is it some people just naturally exclude and others don't?

Brandan 20:30

Yeah. It's hard when we're talking about inclusion and exclusion in broad terms, because some exclusion is healthy and normal and built into what it means to live in a society as social creatures. Like, in order to have families you have to exclude—there are people that belong to a certain family and a tribe and there's an identity there, and other people aren't. So yeah, there's a level of exclusion that we're all wired with. And I think you're right also that we've been conditioned in cultures, to think of groups of people and demographics of people in negative ways. So, frankly, most white people in the United States have a bias built into us because of our cultural conditioning against African Americans. Most straight people in the United States have a conditioned impulse to be fearful of the LGBT community.

And I say in the book, and I really believe that all exclusion at this level is based in a fear of the other because we don't actually know the other we're believing in stereotypes. We're believing in false narratives that have been constructed, usually by those in power to create cohesion. Because the other thing I am really into and talk a lot about in the book is Rene Girard, his idea of Scapegoating, how it really is through the hatred of a person or a group of people that you create the most cohesion in a culture. And so if the president of united face and get on TV on 9/11 and say we are at war with Islam that unites a country because now we have a common enemy.

And if somebody at the Church says we are at war with those attacking our family values, the gay community, that unites the church. And so I think there is incentive for people to exclude and to demonize, I think part of it is natural and healthy, as far as like creating certain identities and groupings. But, in general, any gospel that teaches that God excludes and that God sees certain people as less than I think that is patently a false gospel. I think that's blasphemy. To say that, in God's diverse creation, anything that God has created is less than or should be rejected or marginalized or separated from the kingdom of God and the people of God.

Seth Price 22:53

How do you think churches ride the line or move past having the “of course, we affirm, you know, and we support your decision, you know, of same sex marriage or same sex”, whatever, without you becoming a token couple, and you do deal with this well in the book, but, you know, of course we accept, you know, homosexuality, or of course we accept whatever is being excluded, because we have this one person that we allow to be a member of the church.

Brandan 23:21

Yeah, totally. I think, depending on where your churches at, it's probably highly unlikely that you just have one person or one couple, in most places that I would say are near urban centers. Statistically, it's almost impossible to have a group of 100 people and not have at least five LGBT people there. So I think 1. just to know what the demographics are to know reality, but 2. the purpose of being inclusive, actually, it's this kind of tension, and I kind of touched on this in the book. I don't think we should be looking at our trick and sinker who isn't here, let's create a list and go out and get one. Like, that's not the goal. The goal isn't just to go out and get some gay people to sit in your pews.

What you have to do is actually begin examining what you are teaching, who you are. Because I really do believe this. There is a hunger for community there is a hunger, I believe for the gospel. And if we're preaching the gospel of radical inclusion, if we're preaching a gospel that actually calls for the church to participate in radical, subversive, acts of justice, that put the wrongs to right in the world, you're going to start seeing the minorities come from the highways and byways, that’s who should be attracted to the gospel primarily. And when you look around your church, and if you see that most people are privileged and powerful and wealthy, I think you have a really good indicator to say you're not preaching, at least fully, the radical gospel of Christ.

So I think it's really important one To make sure that our theology is examine and change, I encourage churches to examine the ways within their own institutions how they have systemic exclusion happening. I think churches need to regularly self assess this, and take a hard look in the mirror at what they believe what they're teaching who they are. And as soon as we start preaching, the radical social implications that Jesus taught and embodied, I don't even think the question about tokenizing or anything will be an issue. I just think that in your community, you're going to see more minorities because the message that you're preaching is actually telling them that God is offering them, and you are offering them, a better way of living in the world a more just in generous existence.

But it's also really important for especially conservative churches who say often, oh, look, we have one gay couple, therefore we're inclusive. That usually is not a good indicator. If you have just one couple that really like coming to your church and your theology is still non-affirming. That's not an indicator that you're inclusive. There are a big mix of people, for instance, within the LGBT community that believe a lot of different things. I spent today hanging out with a gay guy that now identifies as a conservative Christian and a celibate. He's not the example for the majority of the LGBT community and anyone who holds that up and says, hey, look, we have this in our community. This is how it should be for everyone. Like, no there's a diversity within the LGBT community.

Seth Price 27:07

I am curious? So when I hear friends of mine that are gay that say that they feel like they have to be celibate. They always feel like it because they struggle to reconcile with Scripture. So they feel like they were born a specific way but that the Bible tells them that that was wrong. And people use Romans or the other “clobber passages”. And I've never been able to speak well to that because I can't wrap my mind around that viewpoint because I'm not gay. How do you as a pastor, work someone through those passages? And I'm inferring that that's why you say he feels like he needs to be celibate. I'm totally inferring if I'm wrong, you tell me and and I'm happy to be wrong. But that's what I usually hear other people say.

Brandan 27:52

Yeah, well, totally. I think primarily the only reason any gay Christian would feel like they need to be celibate is because they understood in a way of interpreting the Bible that leads them to the conclusion that same sex sexual relationships are sinful. And therefore if you can't have sex, you can't have an intimate relationship and therefore you should be celibate. I completely get why people end up there. And I completely affirm the choice of anyone to live in any way that they think is right and good. My ethic always falls down on Romans 14, where Paul says,

What is sin for one person may not be sin for another person, and if you believe that it's sin, and you do it, and it isn't.

So if there's a gay Christian who says I feel called to be celibate, let's celebrate them and their celibacy. But I firmly believe one, that the six clobber passages, I spent four years and $60,000 getting a degree studying first century sexuality and Christianity and within the first six months I was really firm, but the six passages in Scripture that talk about or supposedly talk about sexuality, aren't talking about homosexuality in the way that we understand it. Many conservatives would push back against that, but I just don't see, looking at the cultural context, that each of those pastors were written in (that) the relationships that were being described are not loving, consensual, same sex relationships. And there were examples of that around so the author's knew about loving, consensual same sex relationships.

And Paul, for instance, didn't choose to use the word that meant loving, consensual, same sex relationships and condemned that he used a word that he made up called arsenokoitai, which interpreters are just doing their best to define but it really only appears when the Apostle Paul's writings, we have no clue actually what he meant by that word. I was never convinced, one way or the other by those six passages, I just knew that anyone trying to build their theology of sexuality on those was going to have a really hard time. The way that I walked people through in the way that convinced me that my gay sexuality was blessed by God really comes down to understanding that from the beginning of Scripture, to end the Scripture, there is an ethical trajectory, at the Spirit of God reveals truth to humanity little by little over time, as much as we can understand it at a particular season of human evolution. And we see ethics and scripture growing to be more inclusive.

The ethics and the Book of Leviticus are horrendous, frankly, most people who looked at Leviticus today and applied that our world would be horrible. And we see the people of Israel by the time we get to the end of the Hebrew Bible, loosening those ethics, and then we get to Jesus, who would have failed Bible college at Liberty or at Moody Bible Institute. With the way he interprets the Bible, because he looks at Old Testament commandments from Leviticus and says, You have heard it said, quotes the Old Testament, but I say to you, and he is a new, significantly different commandment, he builds on an ethic there. And as much as we don't like to say that he canceled out and we also misinterpret what Jesus says, when he says, I've not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. The idea there is that the law was incomplete and Jesus had to come and further the ethic to its completion. And so he says, You've heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. That's what the Old Testament commands. And then he says, but I say love your enemy and bless those who persecute you.

No matter what way you look at that and eye for an eye and love your enemies are two significantly different commandments. He completely cancels out that other one, it's incomplete, and he fulfilled it by giving a higher ethic that is based on love. And so to cut it off really quickly I get to my conclusion of this argument, I have this conversation so often so I can go on forever. But I saw that trajectory, I saw how Jesus was moving the ethic of Scripture to this one of radical love and openness. And then the last thing that really convinced me was looking at how Peter was called to the Gentiles and Acts Chapter 10. And God shows him this vision of unclean animals and tells him to rise, kill and eat, in direct violation of God's own law. And when Peter wakes up from the vision, he realizes God was talking not about unclean animals, but about unclean people. And that's when Peter goes to Cornelius's house and preaches the gospel to the Gentiles for the first time. And salvation comes to this group of people that have been excluded from the people of God. And I just think with that image, if that's the trajectory that Scripture is leading us towards, and if that's where Peter was being led towards, to violate scripture, in order to bring more people into conformity to the way of Jesus. I find that a really compelling argument to say when I look around and see people like me, and the thousands of LGBT Christians I know, who just want to be a part of the church why would anyone say that that was anything other than the Holy Spirit? And why would we sit around and argue about Scripture when somebody wants to confess their faith in Christ, that's absurd!

Seth Price 33:39

Yeah. And thinking in the grand scheme of inclusivity. I mean, Scripture is fairly clear that all things the way that they are being made new reconciled, loved the way that they were created, not excluded, everything is reconciled. Ultimately, if you're thinking of a progressive trajectory, an ethic of inclusion everything is included eventually. And so it does make logical sense that we progressively get step by step there. One of the things that I struggle with, or I hear people ask me about, parents that have children, and these parents have grown up in a way that they believe certain things about homosexuality. And so when their children come out and say, you know, Dad, I'm gay, or Mom, I'm gay, they have a real sense of loss. And you talk a bit about four realms of inclusion. But I really feel like Self and Family really hit home for me. And so for families that are dealing with that radical change in life, like the entire demographic of their tribe has changed. How do you deal as a pastor with that sense of loss of whatever they thought their child was supposed to be and hopefully growth of what their child is?

Brandan 34:59

I mean, I think one thing that often gets lost in this conversation is that it is hard for families whether their child is coming out as gay, or whether their child is coming out of gender non conforming or transgender. There is an experience of loss and trauma there. And two things need to happen when that happens.

One.

I don't think that the family's first step should be to express that trauma and loss to the person who's just come out. I think the healthiest thing for families to do is figure out some other way to express that to a friend express that to a neighbor, other family members. But don't put it on the person who has just come out because they themselves are facing loss and rejection because of who they are. So I never like to compare pain or anything like that. But I would say, one I want to acknowledge Yes, you're going to experience some sense of loss. I think everyone does, because it's a shift in identity if you viewed this child, Mom has always used her son as having a wife and kids. And now all of a sudden, after 15 years that changes. That's a shift. So I would acknowledge that suffering and that pain, and keep that away from the person who's just can't come out at least initially. And lean into relationship, begin to allow that child, that friend, whoever it is, and just come out to be themselves, let them be free to express themselves. And I know that the only way that hearts change and minds change is through relationship.

And honestly, I say and I have given people this advice before. It's often hard for like, a mom who feels like she's lost her son because he's gay now. It's hard because of that relationship being so close for them to really come around and start getting acceptance. I would encourage them to seek out a relationship with another relationship with another LGBT person and have a relationship with them. Because you can, parents, often can hear the experience and empathize with the experience of someone with a little bit more distance than their own child. And that will make them a better parents of an LGBT child if they seek out the advice of another LGBT person or relationship with another LGBT person.

But the big key is just keep leaning into relationship and withhold any sense of judgment. And I think as long as you're withholding judgment and leaning in and saying you are still in relationship to me, you're still my beloved child. Things are going to be all right for both of you. But the worst thing they can do is to express tremendous grief and fear and shock and push a person who's already suffering because of all the societal rejection and pressure, and they're just going to push them away and cause more trouble. So it's a hard situation for everyone involved. But there are good ways to do it.

Seth Price 38:06

I know that if I decided now, you know, as a middle aged white man that I wanted to be a missionary, I would be open arms, you know, because I fit the demographic, they would figure out a way to figure out how to send me to wherever I wanted to go and proselytize. What are some of resources for people that are not, you know, fitting into the mold of church the way that it's been done for the last hundreds of years to express and be able to work towards the call if they feel called to ministry? Because I know many people that say, you know, you know, I'm, I feel called to be a pastor, and then they get beat down over here, you know, in Central Virginia saying, you can't be a pastor because you're gay. Or if they feel like they can be it's going to be so much work that there's very minimal support groups, or if they feel called to be a missionary….You know, I'll help you figure out how to do that. But I just want you to know This is a hard road, this is going to be much harder than you intend it. Are there any are there? Is there any avenue for people that feel called to ministry that a support group is either being built now, or maybe on the rise?

Brandan 39:16

Two things. One, I, initially when I hear that, in my talk that I give on sexuality, I always end up at a point where I have to shame the church a little bit. Because again, how ridiculous is that there are people that want to give their lives to spread the good news of Jesus and are rejected from doing that? Shame on us for having that be a reality in 2018 still, but on the other side of it, there's great hope. I think, for most people, if there's a high schooler who's about to go off to college and wanted to do pastoral ministry, what I would tell them is either look for the growing number of schools that are completely affirming like Biola University just came out last week announced the LGBT couples were allowed on campus. They changed their policy and you could go there and study Bible and theology, and that would be the ideal situation. But if you grew up evangelical like I did, if I had to redo it over again, I probably would have gone to a school that was a little bit outside of my comfort zone. There are a Episcopal schools and Presbyterian schools and Lutheran schools that are completely open and affirming and also have robust theology and ministry program.

So I would say, just look around, you might have to go outside of your comfort zone for the training, but the education is there. And then around the country, there are so many LGBT affirming and LGBT led church planting movements and organizations. The one I'm a part of, it's called Mission Gathering Movement, and we have six churches across the country that have been planted; five of them have been planted in the last two years. All LGBT affirming, evangelical churches through organizations like the Q Christian network or the Reformation project, there are pastors that are looking to hire gay associate pastors and just have no question about sexuality or gender identity. Because, as you said earlier in the interview, we are in a day where there's this moment that the Spirit of God is turning things.

And so again, I would look at the organizations that are around, I would look at all the mainline denominations. And we're in a very privileged era in one sense that there is a lot of opportunity. And that might sound strange for a straight person listening to hear because if you live within evangelicalism, you probably don't know just how many schools and organizations and church planting movements there are, but there are dozens and dozens.

Seth Price 41:59

I didn't. No, I asked that in total naivety. I don't know how that word is said. I'm totally naive on that topic. And what does that look like when a university like Biola comes out and says, here's what we're changing, like, is that a seismic shift, or is that an expected shift?

Brandan 42:18

Both but mostly seismic. I expected that. I honestly expect that the general consensus among evangelicals in 10 years will at least be gay people are welcome and we will hold attention on whether you believe that it's in or not. I think most evangelical schools will accept gay students within the next 10 years. So that's where I see it moving.

But for Biola, I mean, it's a fairly seismic shift and they are going to lose and have already lost major donors and they've already lost so many people, because that's how the evangelical world…that's the only the power structure within evangelicalism is money. And so evangelicals take their money from people that don't play by the rules. And so in one sense, I really do applaud Biola and some other places like that, and say, Wow, you are sacrificing and this is what the gospel requires of you.

But also, this is what the gospel requires of you and what took you so long to get here, because there have been gay evangelicals forever. So we are in a turning point, there's a lot to be celebrated. And for the LGBT community, it's also like, Okay, finally, but this was kind of hard to hard to celebrate completely.

Seth Price 43:40

Then this would be my last question. So do you think in you alluded to it earlier, you know, we did this in the 60s, which I didn't know that I'm gonna have to research on that a bit more. I want to learn more about that. The fact that universities and so the educators are changing their stances. I feel like that bodes well that maybe we won't regress that we will continue to become more inclusive so that maybe in 20-25 years, this conversation doesn't necessarily have to happen. It just is assumed that you were made in the image of God, I was made in the image of God, and the little baby that just got born somewhere on the planet, also made in the image of God, regardless of gender, or any other preferences or sexual or anything. Do you feel like the fact that universities are changing, which should change overall I'm thinking, you know, literature that comes out and interviews that happen on you know, CNN and Fox and MSNBC because that's who they bring on. Do you feel like that bodes well for a non regressive path?

Brandan 44:41

I'm going to be cautious here. Normally, I'm quite optimistic but I, I have done I looked at the history a lot recently. And just a few facts to throw out there.

The Southern Baptist Convention in the 1950s and 60s was pro-abortion. Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the largest Conservative Seminary in the world today was a flatly progressive seminary for 60,70s, and 80s and now is probably the most conservative Seminary in the world, at least major seminary. So within the religious world, there really has been these moments of Christianity Today running progressive, like pro-abortion articles on their cover and things like that. And then, because of politics, because of power, that political privilege power and wealth does have control over politics and religion. And so we've seen seminary shifts before, and we've seen them shift to a more radical conservative perspective.

And yet, I do think overall culture, the shift is so much bigger this time around. It's not just an American shift this is a global shift. Seeing similar trends, smaller and larger emerge (trends) from Asia to Europe, I travel internationally about four times a year now meeting with gay Christians around the world. And I see this movement actually happening on a global scale. So I am very hopeful. And I do think the baby born today is going to grow up in a significantly different church, if they are Christian and grow up in a significantly different world that I think is better and more inclusive. And I really always want to encourage people to be mindful of our history, and to make sure that we do the work this time around, not just to have surface level change, a couple seminaries shifts and a couple big churches shift and say, Look, it's all done, and then have a whiplash moment and 15 years and regress again, but that might be inevitable. I don't think it is and I am hopeful.

Seth Price 46:52

I really do hope not. I would love for there to be so much less hate, just overall less things to argue about would be great because we seem to invent my stuff. argue so so so on the final word, where can people obviously the book is available at Amazon, but how can people get involved with you? And I know you're active on Twitter and, and so where would you point people directly to engage a bit more with you and some of the topics that you do with?

Brandan 47:19

Yeah, well, like you said, I tweet a lot @BrandonJR. And my name is BRANDAN. But also my website has tons of resources that I linked to where I'm speaking people can invite me to come to communities and just a lot of ways to get in contact with me and that BrandanRobertson.com. And you can find that on Twitter as well.

Seth Price 47:42

Yeah, absolutely.

Brandan 47:44

Well, thank you. It's good to chat with you.

Seth Price 47:47

I genuinely hope that you were as challenged as I am from that conversation. We have to be diligent and we have to be vocal and we have to be humble and not hateful about it. If we're too tend to help our churches and our world move towards a more inclusive posture towards other people, we have to ride that line of speaking truth, even if it's offensive without damaging relationships in the process.

If you have not yet, I would encourage you to get True Inclusion and other books like it. Reach out to some of those resources that Brandon mentioned. For people that want to become engaged in this. It is worth the effort. It's worth the time and I think if we do it right, it will become the future of the church. I'm entirely fearful, entirely fearful, for what happens if we can't figure it out.

Please remember to rate and review the show on iTunes. If you feel led, I would love to count you among the community of some of my favorite people in the world. The Patreon supporters, you'll find links to that at CanISayThisAtChurch.com. Send me some feedback in an email. I genuinely enjoy that and I do reply. So shoot me your thoughts even if you don't like what you heard. Shoot me those thoughts too and I’m happy to hear them. Thought enclosing, it would be pertinent. I've been given permission to play a song and full of Jordy’s that I think speaks very well to the posture and the humility and the heart that we need to have while we're talking to people about inclusion.

Seth Price 52:48

The music that you heard today is from Jordy Searcy his music is something that I found recently. I find it beautiful and I no joke driving the other day one of his songs popped on on just a rant playlist and gave me goosebumps. There's an emotion and a depth to some of his music that really speaks to something in me currently. And I hope it does to you as well find more information about Jordy, Jordysearcymusic.com. You'll find that link in the show notes and as always, you'll find the music from today's episode featured on the Can I Say This At Church Spotify playlist.

I look forward to speaking with you soon.

Be well.