Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

Danny 0:00

Everything, everything ultimately comes down to how one views, the biblical texts when it comes to theology. I mean, that's the, that's, that's the ground. That's the foundation. And so sometimes like conservatives and more progressive folks like myself are just talking over each other's heads because we are just starting at two completely different places. And so I like the approach of Karl Barth, when he says that Scripture is a witness, divine revelation, but should not be equated with divine revelation. So, we have to understand that what the scripture writers are saying is coming from certain culturally conditioned and historically rooted perspectives, not eternal ones, you know what I mean? So, the when you see Scrpiture this way that allows you to now use some discernment and say, okay, just because that's what was believed back then doesn't mean that's what necessarily needs to be believed now. And so the question becomes, okay, well how do I discern when I read through the Scripture what’s reflecting God's truth and what's just reflecting, you know, the humanity of the authors?

Seth Intro 1:50

Everybody welcome back to the Can I Say This At Church podcast based on feedback from the most important person that influences this show, which is my wife. We're going to try the intro live. So here we go. Today I'm joined by Pastor Danny Prada, who comes from Heartway Church in Florida. Danny, welcome to the show.

Danny 2:09

Thanks. Glad to be here.

Seth 2:10

I always like to start kind of the same way, a little bit of your background, your story, your history, and then how that kind of impacted you to the ministry that that obviously you feel called to do as a pastor. But just kind of those those huge milestones that that were life changing or life altering for you.

Danny 2:30

Yeah, so I grew up in church. I have two wonderful parents who kind of trained me up in the right way. And every Sunday we were going to church and worshiping together, we would pray together and so that was kind of like, always put in front of me when I was a child. But my faith wasn't really my own until I got to college. When I was in college, that's when I really started getting around some Other folks who were serious about following Jesus and I started to become a lot more passionate about my faith, to the point where I transferred schools at the time I was at a university studying sports management. My freshman year of college and I went to school in West Palm Beach called Palm Beach Atlantic University, and got my Bachelor of Arts in ministry leadership.

Then from there, I went to the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. I had got around some reformed friends at college and they had sucked me into that world. And so after I graduated, I said, You know what, I want to go to like, the hub of this kind of stuff. And so SBTS, was that for me at the time, and so I went and I was exposed to you know, fundamentalism at its best, I guess. You know, a lot of challenging things were taught to me and things that I challenged as well. And during that time, even though I liked what I was being taught to believe I didn't like how a lot of the heroes of my faith were holding their beliefs.

Like they were just really combative and kind of argumentative with other streams of Christian faith and practice. And for me, that was a problem because I have half of my family is Catholic half of my family that's charismatic. And according to the folks that I looked up to both of those streams were just like, probably not even considered to be Christian, to be honest. So that started getting me investigating a lot. And long story short, I just started expanding my my reading. And it got me to a point where I really started questioning a lot of what I had held to be true. And so during that time, I decided to start a church. And so I started a church. And shortly after my faith kind of crumbled, completely and totally. And so I tell folks all the time, there would be weeks where, on a Thursday, I was doubting whether God existed and on a Sunday, I had to preach to a roomful of people about this God that I didn't know existed or not.

And so it's been a crazy couple of years. But right now our church has become somewhat of like a safe place for spiritual refugees and people who are on the fringes and people who are struggling with questions and doubts, because that's kind of been my journey. So I appeal a lot to those folks who are trying to rethink their faith in light of the contemporary world.

Seth 5:51

I want to clarify something you said in there. So you said when you got to college was when you met reformed?

Danny 5:55

Yeah, when I was when I was in college, I just kind of made friends with some guys who are like all into Mark Driscoll and Wayne Grudem, and john Piper and RC Sproul and John MacArthur and Matt Chandler.

Seth 6:09

So how does that different than from your upbringing? Were you more Catholic upbringing or more charismatic or some kind of...

Danny 6:17

No, I grew up going to a seeker sensitive mega church that was not really too keen on theological conversations, to be honest. So none of this stuff was even like, a thing to me. You know, I mean, it was the same conservative evangelical theology, but they weren't like, mean about it, you know, so, I didn't have too much baggage from my upbringing. But, but once I got to college, and I started getting introduced to this world, that's when I really started having some issues with a lot that I was reading and learning.

Seth 6:53

I can echo that. So I was the opposite. I went to a church that preached a lot. I went to an Independent Baptist Church, in West Texas, and then went to Liberty to you know, cement all that. And then after leaving Liberty, I was like, man, I don't, this doesn't hold water in the world that I live in. And the way that we treat people doesn't seem to match very well with the Jesus that I say that about that the Jesus that we talked about. And it just, man, it's rough and I relate a lot because during my whole phase, like I lead worship at my church pretty much every Sunday or I'm involved with it.

And I struggle with not necessarily preaching things that I don't know if I believe in but singing them, which for me, singing is one of the ways that I currently like worship God in a way that I can't quite describe if that makes any sense. Like there's something…

Danny 7:46

No, I get it

Seth 7:47

Something primal in it that I don't know…something deeper than humanity.

Danny 7:49

Yeah. You know, I’m with you man. For me when I started kind of exploring outside of my box, because there was a point in time where I stopped Christian box was the only box everything else was just painted or, or wrong or confused or misguided, like I had the truth and my group had the truth. But when I started like moving beyond that, what kept nagging me was that I would listen to a lot more progressive minded Christian thinkers, and I just couldn't fathom how they could be so free in their love. It was hard for me to understand like, wait, how can they talk in a way that's so inclusive and all embracing, like, no this Bible verse and this Bible verse in this Bible verse, and what about this doctrine? And what about this theological teaching, and it just didn't make sense and it was hard for me, but I knew deep down inside even though intellectually, it wasn't computing. Intuitively I knew that I knew that I knew that it was right. And sometimes I've heard it said that the job of a good spiritual teacher is to be a midwife, which is essentially saying that the job of the teacher is to help give birth to that which is already inside of you.

And that's what I feel was happening during those early stages. Maybe about four or five years ago, when I really started expanding my horizons. I just knew in my heart that greater love and greater freedom and greater inclusivity was pulling me forward. The Spirit was pulling me forward. And I just had a whole bunch of Bible verses that I was arguing and using to resist that movement forward. I think that the Spirit of God is always ahead of us and we're just playing catch up. I honestly believe that with all my heart, you know,

Seth 9:55

I hope I catch up one day, I don't disagree with that. Um, but I also don't know that I like it because I saw a lot of work on my part. And I'd like to hope that one day I did it; that I did it well. But that's probably because I'm lazy. So real easy question. And I say that with a smile on my face. What is the purpose of the Bible? And in your view, I've got I've got six or seven different versions on the shelf over here. I read it regularly. And I've got probably every version known to man on my phone. What is the actual purpose of the Bible?

Danny 10:29

Oh, well, that has been a big question that I've mulled over on countless occasions over the last few years. What I will say is that when I think about the Bible, I used to think about the Bible as one book that's saying one thing. Now my view is very different in the sense that I've come to the realization that the Bible is a library of books, written by many different authors, over a very extended period of time. And these books record the developing understandings that were found within the ancient Jewish and early Christian communities.

And so I personally believe that the Bible is a conversation starter, not a conversation ender. And so this is what we as Christians are constantly in conversation with, and we find nourishment in the pages of Scripture, and we find God in the pages of Scripture. However, it's very easy to use the Bible as a weapon. In fact, I think the Bible in the hands of immature people, undeveloped people, and unloving people, is probably the most dangerous book in the world. Because you can really prove anything you want from any verse in the Bible. And history has proven that to be true.

We’ve use the Bible too legitimate a bunch of hatred and prejudice and violence and an exclusion, even within the church. And so the way I say it is like this, the Bible does not speak with one voice, but with many voices. And of all of those voices I elevate the voice of Christ. And so the teachings of Jesus, the story of Jesus is what gives shape to my approach of interpreting Scripture, if that makes sense.

Seth 12:35

No, it does. Yeah, one of my favorite quotes of yours. I have it saved on my phone. I screenshotted it, because it's easier to find it that way. I'm trying to this from memories, is you said

how people interpret the Bible says a lot more about them than it does about God.

And the way that I hear that is if I'm a hateful person, I'm going to interpret Scripture as Brueggemann says, you know with my own implicit bias. Especially if I don't care to research ancient near us culture, and what these words meant in the time that it meant. I mean, even 50 years ago, Snapchat wasn't a thing. And in 100 years, who knows what that word will mean, but it is referenced in many books. So that that matters. And I like that thought of when we read Scripture, if what we read is hateful, it's probably because we are. Which then I mean, that leads down so many, so many horrible, horrible conclusions, if you're not willing, if you're not willing to deal with it.

Danny 13:36

You see and ultimately, I'm glad you brought this up. Because everything, everything, ultimately comes down to how one views the Biblical texts. When it comes to theology I mean, that's the that's, that's the ground that's the foundation. And so sometimes like conservatives and more progressive folks like myself are just talking over each other's heads because we are just starting at two completely different places. And so I like the approach of Karl Barth, when he says that

Scripture is a witness to divine revelation, but should not be equated with divine revelation.

So, we have to understand that what the Scripture writers are saying is coming from certain culturally conditioned, and historically rooted perspectives, not eternal ones. You know what I mean? When you see scripture this way, that allows you to, to now use some discernment, I say, okay, just because that's what was believed back then doesn't mean that's what necessarily needs to be believed now.

And so the question becomes, okay, well, how do I discern when I read through the Scripture, what's reflecting God's truth and what's just reflecting the humanity of the authors. And that's where, you know, number one, we should always say Jesus should be that measuring stick for us. And I like to also just very bluntly say that love should be the measuring stick because that is what Jesus embodied through his life. And that is what Jesus said mattered most.

And so I like how John Wesley put it when he said,

whatever a passage of Scripture means, it cannot mean that God is not love.

And if you take that approach, you're going to probably come to a lot of different conclusions then you may have been handed down in the past. And then of course, we have, you know, so much good Biblical scholarship that can help us sort through the text. But, you know, it's, it's not just like you can pluck up any Bible verse and say, “This is eternal truth forever”. No, the Bible, the way Marcus Borg puts it, someone I really admire? He says,

The Bible is sacred in its status and its function, but not in its origin.

And so again now that allows us to approach the text with with a more critical lens and say, Okay, let's take what we need to take and let's leave behind what we need to leave behind. You know, nobody, hopefully on a Sunday morning is preaching slaves obey your masters, some people are still preaching. The women must be silent in church, but hopefully they're becoming the minority the more time that passes.

Seth 16:35

Hopefully, they're not reading Romans considering that was most likely read by a woman to all the people there in Rome. So just if you want to preach that, which is funny, because it takes Romans to justify that view, you're going to struggle when the verses you're using were probably first delivered by a Roman woman.

Danny 16:55

Exactly.

Seth 16:56

Yeah. But again, that requires me to know that and I have to learn that so with that being said, what then is the role of the pastor? So if you've got me as a captive audience at whatever church it is, and I know there's quite a few pastors that listen to this show, what is the role of a pastor? Especially as you have doubts with what you believe, weekly and then on Sunday? Like how should you approach that when you know that you have doubts, but you also have to speak truth? What does it look like?

Danny 17:26

Well, it's not easy, for starters. You know, but something that I've noticed is, the more vocal I've been about my struggles and my doubts and my questions, the more people have kind of come out of the woodwork and raised their hands to say, hey, me, too. I've actually been thinking those things this whole time, but I didn't know I was allowed to even say that.

And so I always tell people, the worst thing you could ever do is put me up on a pedestal. I'm just like everybody else. I speak to others what I need to hear myself. And so when I'm preaching, I'm preaching to me, and I'm letting everybody else listen in. And if it's helpful for you great if it's not fine, but I think ultimately the job of the pastor is to witness to all that they have been experiencing of God in their life, and to help other people become the most loving versions of themselves. That's what this whole thing is about from top to bottom and so that's what I try and do. My job is to serve, my job is to bless, my job is to help. And you know, me being honest about my journey can serve that purpose than great, that's what I do.

Seth 18:44

One questions that always nags at me and I've never honestly I've never been ballsy enough to ask it to a pastor but I've got you and so I'm going to try and if, if it doesn't come off, right, for those listening. I intend this from the best from the best perspective. Thinking in light of the pastor that just committed suicide and then I've been reading a lot about suicide.

I just read a book from Steve Austin called Catching Your Breath, which is a got a lot of that struggle and anxiety is so many people, specifically people in a position of leadership be that you know, a manager or a pastor, you're not allowed to show you can't turn it off. Like you have to show up Sunday. You can't turn it off. Everyone else gets to grieve and check out but the pastor, and you have to answer the phone if someone calls because that's how this works.

So how can the church partner or or create a safe place that that brokenness doesn't continue to be a leading cause either in the congregation or in the leadership like people just literally ending it?

Danny 19:46

Yeah, I remember hearing a pastor say once that everybody who is even considering to enter into pastoral ministry should first spend a whole lot of time in some AA meetings. Because in those meetings, you will kind of learn how much BS we kind of put up with in church and how many masks people are wearing and how inauthentic people are within the walls of the church. I think the answer is always honesty and vulnerability and transparency. And yet it's so sad that church, which is where people should be able to freely and totally be real about where they are, is the very place most people say they cannot do that.

They can't, they're judged or they're looked down on for their disciplined or, you know, excluded because of whatever that they said or shared. And so I think it's so important that we learn how to create environments and spaces where people can really be themselves without any repercussion. And I also think it's important for people in the church to recognize that we are not the end all be all. And there are some issues that are way past our pay grade. And there's nothing wrong until a people go see a professional, go take medication. Go ahead and pray, that's fine! You know, go ahead and do some spiritual practices that can help you, but get the other help that you need to!

And I think for a while, there's just been this weird stigma around mental health and stuff like that. Sometimes we just kind of catch it when it's too late. You know?

Seth 21:51

So I've been reading a lot on that and, and it's, it's heartbreaking and I think stigma is the right word. And, and I'm I'm so hopeful that my kids generation does not look at like, if my car was broke down, I take it to the mechanic and the brain is nothing more than any other part of our body. Like if I'm sick, I go to the doctor.

And for some reason, you're not supposed to do that, if you're struggling with depression, or you know, we'll pray it out of you. And the reason I asked that question is I feel like churches that I grew up in, and churches that I see, for the most part, are really good at calling out the problem, and decent at trying to help with the solution and horrible at walking through it with you when it hurts that there's only a handful of people that will. And so how, and your church is probably different because you were going through everything while the church is being founded. So I have to think that your congregation is probably in a different headspace than the normal church that existed in Atlanta, Georgia for the last hundred years or my church that's over 100 years old, you know, and so, right. That's why I asked that question. Like, I don't know how to how to retrain a congregation that their entire life Church has been programmed that this is the box that are—this is the puzzle piece that church fills in your life, when really, it should be many puzzle pieces that are interchanging.

Danny 23:17

100%! 100%! And, for us at Heartway it starts with me. I mean, it always starts with the leadership. You know, I have zero problem being completely honest about what I struggle with, where I need to see growth, what I've been experiencing, how I've been hurt in the past. And so a lot of people just they just kind of need that permission. I know it's probably weird to put it in that way but people they don't feel like they're allowed or they're able to or like it's not correct and so when spiritual leader comes out and it's just totally open about things that helps create a culture where other people can embrace that same kind of mentality and just be open and honest and real about whatever it is they're struggling with.

But yeah, I just spoke with somebody actually last weekend who said, who talked to me about the fact that they're dealing with depression, and you know, they don't know exactly what to do. And they asked me to pray. And I said, listen, I'm gonna pray for you. But can you promise me that, like, you're going to go see somebody and if they tell you to take medication, you'll take that medication too, because the mental health is such a big issue. This is such a big problem that we need as many ways to kind of confront it as possible, not just one way and we should utilize all those different ways in order to, you know, get to that place where we can actually enjoy life and live as we were intended to live.

Seth 25:00

I didn't intend for this to go there. But I'm glad that we did. Because it's honest and if there's ever anything you you wonder if you can say at church, it's definitely that I want to circle back around to the Bible. So I find often, as I'm in a different place now than I was 10 years ago, when I speak with people that we no longer theologically align. They struggle, and probably I do too, if I'm honest, at dissolving the belief and the person like, I am not my beliefs, but my beliefs do inform me. And so how do you deal when people like I've been called like, well, you're just cherry picking Scripture. You can't just talk about love, or Jesus. And it seems like every time I give you a Scripture verse, Seth, you want to try to twist it to match it to fit what Jesus said, which a part of me finds funny, actually, genuinely funny. But I get tired of being accused of cherry picking which scripture I do and don't want to Use for whatever the situation is, Do you find that to be true?

Danny 26:04

Um, yeah, it's just kind of silly everybody cherry picks, everybody chooses a set of texts that they're going to prioritize over others. And all we're saying is, we're open and honest about admitting the fact that we do it. And other people they just aren't. And so what we're saying is because of Jesus, and what he valued and what he taught, we want to prioritize these texts that speak of love, and justice and compassion and peace, and wholeness and renewal. And we want to read all of those other texts, in light of these, which we're giving priority.

And the example of this is Jesus, this is what Jesus did. Jesus was very selective in his quoting of Scripture, sometimes Jesus would even change Scripture

you've heard it said, But I say to you

Jesus would challenge certain readings and interpretations of Scripture. And what ultimately, was the goal for Jesus and all of this was love and compassion. That was always the goal for Jesus. That's where he wanted to end up. And so there were certain people who were using the law to exclude other people, or to belittle other people. Jesus said, Hey, I know that's what it says. But people matter more than rules. And relationships matter more than your dogma.

And so when there's a conflict, you gotta you gotta be willing to question some of this stuff and some of the way you're reading it. So I like how one, one teacher by the name of Paul Knitter. He says he's from Union Theological Seminary. He says that he operate with what he calls an ethical hermeneutic, which means he basically test the validity of truth claims on the basis of the ethical fruit that those truth claims produce in people's life. And so if the ethical fruit of a certain belief is bringing harm, then we've got to go back and rethink that belief or rethink that interpretation. Does that make sense?

Seth 28:32

It does. But how do we measure harm? Because what could be harmful for me? Yeah, so like, say, I own a business. What I think is harmful, is entirely different than what you might think is harmful. So how do I measure harm in that hermeneutic?

Danny 28:46

Yeah, I think that when you look at the life of Jesus, there is always always always liberation. theology speak of it like this. There's always a bias for the bottom, there's always a preferential option for the poor. God's heart is with the oppressed. God's heart is with those who are excluded and marginalized.

And so, you know, in what way are our beliefs and our interpretations and our on our theology impacting those folks. And that's where that's where we can look and say, Hey, this is actually producing a lot of harm or this is actually doing something that's good. And again, love is our guide. Love is our guide. At least that's how I try and simplify it in that way.

Seth 30:33

When we think about social justice, and when I say that I don't mean the political, social justice, I don't mean Democrats, Republicans, I could care less about that. When I think of bringing that salvation to me social justice is a form of salvation like things are being reconciled and and if I'm just to be overtly blunt, like I believe that, that humans ultimately are being reconciled, but so is everything else. You know the computer that we're talking on, this microphone, the universe, everything is being made whole. And that that's what the kingdom of God is ultimately going to look like, which I believe is going to be extremely loving. So how does the church do that? What does the church need to change for that version of the kingdom of God to come into being? Because what I see now does not look like that except for really small pockets. And I want to make sure I don't have just an echo chamber of people that agree with me.

Danny 31:32

Yeah, you know, I'm a big proponent of the statement made by Jürgen Moltmann, when he said all theology is eschatology. All theology is eschatology, meaning, how we think about the future is going to have a huge impact as to how we live now in the present. And so we've got a skewed vision of what God intends for the future, then we're going to have a skewed vision for God's purposes in the here and now.

And so how do we conceive of where this whole thing is headed? That's the big question. And you answered it very well already when you mentioned the kingdom of God, the kingdom of God. There are so many, well, just like every theological term, there are a million definitions for everything. Some of my favorite definitions of the kingdom of God, Thomas Oord calls it the reign of love. One of my professors from cooler Reggie McNeal calls the kingdom of God-life as God intends. Marcus Borg speaks of the kingdom of God as the dream of God for the world. John Cobb, process theologian, speaks of the kingdom of God as the Commonwealth of God. It is a vision of a new kind of world. A new kind of humanity.

And so we are called to partner with God, to bring about that reality that was Jesus, his prayer to Your kingdom come and Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And so I think the church is always going to have problems if we relegate social justice to something that is secondary to the Gospel; or just an implication of the gospel. When you separate social justice from the Gospel, you no longer have the Gospel—those are one in the same. Now, of course, there's an individual component to this. We preach the good news that people can be reconciled to God through Christ. But here's where people get it mixed up. What if what that means, okay to be reconciled to God through Christ, what that means is you are partnering with God, to bring about this alternative social vision that God has for the world. That's what it means for you as an individual, to be reconciled to God, and to be faithful to God, and to live the kind of life that God intends.

So the social component, and the individual component of the gospel belong together, they belong together. God has a vision for what the world could be we saw that in Jesus, and now are calling is to partner with God to create the kind of world that we saw, made known in Christ.

Seth 34:48

How do we do that well, when we have things that like just came out to yesterday that social justice activism reform that so many Protestants their name to it, I have to think that you have to be aware of it. I haven't read it in full. But I hope you know what I'm talking about that John MacArthur espouse like, how do we, how do we, on one side of the church, join hands with the other side of the church when they seem to just not care?

Like, just check out like you're reading it wrong. It's your fault. Like, I don't need them to agree with me, but how do I actually partner with them? Because it's going to require that like, like a church, like there's a part of the church that to do the ministry that needs to be done requires the mechanisms and the infrastructure that the body of the church historically has made. But it seems like sometimes his body just doesn't care to use it for anything but game. So how do I partner and I love what you're saying about social justice, but I don't know how to make that key fit into that lock, to even start down that road.

Danny 35:49

Well, on a personal level I am trying to spend a lot less time fighting the old and a lot more time building the New. So kinda like Richard Rohr says

the best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better.

I just think that those of us who have captured the heart of the Kingdom need to pay a lot less attention and give a lot less energy to folks who are dragging everything back. And we need to give all of our energy and all of our focus to moving things forward. So what does that mean for our communities like we just kind of be on the ground, we've got to be connected to the poor, we have to be actively at work in our communities, bringing about change, not just and I make this distinction oftentimes; a lot of churches are good at doing the work of charity. But not a lot of churches are good at doing the work of justice. There's a big difference.

You know, charity is doing nice things for people who are need, and we need a lot more charity. But that's not where it stops for us. The vision of Jesus and God's goal and desires the kingdom, then we also have to fix and change the structures and systems that create the poverty and the neediness in the first place. So, that's where churches need to need to get really creative and and start figuring out how can we actually make a lasting impact? How can we actually bring about change, not just do nice things for people and take pictures and post it up on social media, and then pat ourselves on the back and make a video, you know, I mean.

So yeah, it's not easy. You know, it's not easy, but I'll tell you what, the fact that these folks had to make a statement tells you that folks like us are making enough noise, that that's a necessity for them. Do you know what I mean? Because I'll tell you what, when I was when I was in that world, four or five years ago, this wasn't a conversation. But it is a conversation now; the reflection is happening, the conversation is happening, the dialogue is happening. And I think Unfortunately, the church has usually had to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future.

Seth 38:37

That's the story of which I mean is that happens every like, that's biblical. Like that is the story of Israel. Like I will save you from Egypt. All right, we're good. You promise you do this? Yeah, of course. That's our covenant. Just kidding. He was gone too long. Let's make a calf. Let's do this thing like that is the story of the church to kicking and screaming, which makes God more graceful honestly.

Danny 39:02

I know. And that's my biggest frustration like when you talk to people who are not in church world, and you ask for their opinion of Christians. I'll tell you the one thing you're never going to hear, oh, Christians, and those are those people who are just really ahead of the game. Those are those people who are just always challenging the way that we do things and, and trying to pull society forward into a better future. No, that's not what people say about us! What they say about us is, “Oh, those are the folks that are holding everyone back. Those are the folks who are still like getting mad about the fact that women are wearing jeans that have holes in them”, which by the way, we had an incident like that at my church which is why that’s stuck in my head.

Seth 39:57

Well, to be fair, I don't like that. I feel like that's a waste of money. That's me, that's a personal preference. If she likes it, I don't care, that's fine.

Danny 40:04

We just worry about these issues that we make, which is so behind. It's like, I'm so bored by some of the conversations that we're still having in the church. Like, why are we still having these conversations that…I mean, the world has moved on, the world has moved on. And eventually we will have to as well. But guess what, we're not supposed to be the last ones to wake up. We're supposed to be the ones ahead of everybody else. If the spirit is always ahead of us that means that we as people of the Spirit should be ahead of everybody else to letting the world know, hey, there's a better future. There's a better way to do this. There's a better way to be human. Look at how we're living amongst ourselves. This is what God desires for you and for the universe as a whole. But that's just not the reality. You know it’s tough, it's tough even for me, like, I hate that every time I introduce myself as a pastor people recoil, and then I have to spend the next 10 minutes apologizing, and and and basically explaining to these people that I'm not that kind of Christian, which they're used to. You know, I mean, like, I get why some people feel like they just need to check out and throw the whole thing away the labels not even helpful for me.

I understand it. You know now I believe too much in the message of Jesus and in Christianity to do that. I'm gonna stick it through at least, that's where I am now. But yeah, it's not easy.

Seth 41:43

What do you think changed in the last five years because I agree with you like, I'm only at a college for 10 years and I know I was in a bubble at Liberty, but just even when you turn on the news or social media like Facebook existed then. Although to date myself, Facebook came to the campus because you had to be at a college to get Facebook, so I'll let people Google what year that was.

But like, I don't, what do you think is changed in what you've seen? Not necessarily what you've heard, but what has changed either in the western civilization of humanity or in the culture of the world that we are it appears gradually progressing? Which which scares me for what my son will deal with in 30 years. What will I stop progressing at but I'm not there yet. What is, what has changed?

Danny 42:30

Well, I can probably speak better as to what's changing in the church, we can start there. What I will say is more and more people are speaking up and speaking out. When previously, they had so much to themselves, because speaking up and speaking out, meant that you got fired. Meant you lost your livelihood. You were deemed a heretic. I mean, look 2011 Love Wins comes out…Farewell Rob Bell, fast forward, I mean that book created such a ruckus in Christianity.

Seth 43:15

That book rocked me. So I remember reading that I had just started my banking career read it on my lunch break over the course of a week. I remember walking away slightly angry and extremely confused specifically because he didn't really give any answers. He just said, here's the different views and go figure it out.

Danny 43:31

Well, that's his style, you know, but what I will say is there were a lot of people who had to pay the price. And because they paid the price you have this podcast right now and you don't probably get as much heat as those people did. You know what I mean? Like, so that’s what I’m saying

Seth 43:52

I'm pretty sure I don't get as much as they do. But I get more than I thought that I would.

Danny 43:58

Yeah, of course. You know, I get criticized all the time. But my point is like, alternative theologies are being normalized now. Like I said, there are more and more people who feel bold enough and courageous enough to now speak because others have spoken before them. And so I think, especially with social media, and the more content that's being put out and listen, my journey, my journey towards the kind of Christianity that I practice now, a big part of all of this has been podcasts.

I listened to and I'm not even kidding. I still probably listen to anywhere upwards of eight to 10 hours of podcasts every week, and that's probably not…I probably do more than that sometimes. I mean, so those podcasts are people like yourself, who said, you know what, let's change the conversation. Let's talk about stuff we weren't allowed to talk about before. And so the more we normalize this, the easier it'll be for other people to pick up on the fact that you can't just put a label and call of heretics and expect us to be silenced now and not taken seriously. No, that's just not the reality anymore of the world that we live at. So I think that's been a big part of the shift.

Seth 45:22

Yeah, no, I agree. I used to be afraid of the heretic label, mostly because I used it as a weapon. But I'm finding more and more and more I posted a quote not long ago that was given to me. What is say? It's, it's a Helmet Thielicke. I can't say his name. It's German, like Helmet Thielicke. I can't say it. It basically it's,

a person who speak it's th e l IC K. That's too many consonants in a word for me as an American and I'm willing, I'm willing to admit that but he says

A person who speaks to this hour’s need will always be skirting the edge of heresy, but only the person who risks those heresies can gain the truth.

Which I really resonate with, because I feel like I get permission to keep doing what I'm doing, which which I find life giving, like the more that I research and the more that I read, and honestly, the more that I watch the numbers of which podcasts are downloaded, like, you would think that it would be the big, you know, because I've interviewed people not just progressive I've interviewed people from all all different walks, but it is the the topics on hell. The conversation on atonement, and the conversations on salvation that have been historically every month consistently enough so that they almost outweigh many of the other episodes, which are like tentpole, portions of our faith, like, where do I go when I die? What does salvation look like? Why did Jesus die?

Which if those are the most listened to, I really wonder what most pastors are preaching on Sunday? But I find the more than more that I dig in the more and more that I read and engage in different streams of theology. The deeper God gets. And in this the, I don't know, the more flexible I become, and that's not the right that's not the right verb, but it's close.

Danny 47:18

No, but I get it. I believe the search for truth is the search for God. And that truth, big “T” Truth has nothing to be afraid of. So there's nothing that's off limits. Ask the questions, search, investigate, read beyond that which you have originally been exposed to. That's when you're going to start growng. That's when you'll get stretched. That's when you'll…see I didn't even know that other theologies really existed. And if I did think that other theologies besides my own existed, I just dismiss them automatically as falsehoods because those articulations were different than mine. And that's what a lot of us are taught this is there's just one way to see it. And that's it. And if you don't see it this way, you're wrong. And people have no idea of the breadth and the depth and the width of Christian history and Christian theology.

I tell people all the time, there are many ways where I have challenged Christian tradition and move beyond certain traditional formulations found within the church. However, there are other ways in which I haven't moved beyond I've just created deeper roots. I just went, I just went further in and I've been able to find stuff and and unearth treasures that were there all along, but have just been ignored.

So, ultimately, I think the big question is, what does it mean to be faithful? Repeating the past or continuing the conversation? There are some people who say our job is just to regurgitate what has already been said, forever and ever and ever. Absolute, unchanging, eternal truth. And there are others that say, you should be a little more humble. Recognize that even though there is absolute truth, no one possesses that truth absolutely. Which means we're all on a pilgrimage. We're consistently and constantly just figuring it out. We should always be open and willing to learn and adjust. And theology is a discussion! It's a discussion from beginning to end. But yeah, that's difficult.

Seth 49:41

One of my favorite friends. One of my favorite friends, that's awful. One of my friends. Anytime we start talking about theology, he's like, I just sometimes have to remember that we made this up. lJesus is who Jesus is, but all of this, all of this theology, like we made this like this. So if it's bad, we just That and if it's good, we did that.

But this theology and how we work with it, we made this up. We did this which is, yeah. Which is it is what it is.

So, Danny, I want to give give you back time. I know we've we're really close to the end of the amount of time that we have. So thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate your afternoon. And I appreciate I genuinely I've listened to a handful of your sermons. I really appreciate what you're doing. I don't necessarily always agree with you, theologically, but I really genuinely appreciate your authenticity, and what you're doing.

Danny 50:39

I appreciate it.

Seth 50:40

Where can people hear more, either your sermons or dig into maybe some books that are impacting you or some theologians that are being life giving to you in closing?

Danny 50:53

Yeah, well, all of our stuff is that HeartwayChurch.com and every week I'm preaching different sermons and so we do have a podcast, you know, on podbean or iTunes. If you search for Heartway church, you'll find what we're doing.

But I wouldn't even know where to begin in terms of books for people to read right now what's bringing life to me there's a wonderful book by a man named Martin Laird called Into the silent land, which is it's a beautiful book on prayer and contemplation. And I'm also reading a book by Richard Rohr called The Naked Now. And that book is really good. So that's kind of what's on the tip of my mind as we speak, but yeah, if anybody ever reaches out to me and you're curious about reading, reading some good stuff I can I can spend less inundations for sure.

Seth 51:54

Absolutely. Well, Danny, thank you so much.

Danny 51:58

No, you got it, man. Thanks for having me. It was fun.

Seth Outro 52:37

The church is changing and if you don't think so you just have to pay attention but the Church must change. You heard Danny and I talk about it quite a bit there and I hadn't given much thought that we just need to stop fighting the fight to change people to do something different and instead just move forward; just move on and do something. Be formative be Jesus, like just go and chase after the Spirit and where that leads is fine.

Thank you so much the new patron supporters I know there's been an uptick in that I appreciate each and every single one of you.

Willl talk to you next week.

Be blessed.