Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Austin 0:00

So I think probably the chapter in the book I've been asked about the most is the chapter on stuff is what I call it, you know, the new religion. And the basic idea and it comes from first, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, one of those two where the writer says, you know, for the love of money is the root of all evil. And many people have walked away from the faith because of it. And have I just never seen anybody explore this idea that's so clearly laid out in Scripture that a lot of people walk away from faith, not because they have, you know, existential questions or despair or, you know, other religions or what do I do about science? No, a lot of people walk away from faith, because they had a lot of stuff. And it made God irrelevant, a pain, someone they needed to get rid of, so they can enjoy their stuff, you know, and it's so clearly laid out, but it's never explored. And so that is the idea that stuff causes a crisis of faith because God is clearly laid out there. All scripture is a threat to our stuff because God says that all of our stuff is actually his stuff. You know, that's Psalm 24:1

The earth is the Lord's and everything it contained. yes

I don't own anything you said you don't own anything. God owns everything everything that we have we have alone. That's like a pretty tough thing to really believe this day and age. And so I do think that our stuff which we love has made believing in God very inconvenient. So we've just kind of decided on a subconscious level none of this was intentional, that it would just be easier to just not believe in God so we could just enjoy our stuff.

Seth Intro 2:11

Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the Can I Say This At Church podcast. Regardless of what my voice sounds like, I am still Seth, your host. I want to apologize up front for this intro and the outro is recorded well after the conversation with Austin and fall apparently has set in; and with that comes whatever has happened to my throat So firstly, thank you so much to each and every one of the patrons supporters and thank you each and every one of you that have review the show on iTunes, Google Play podbean everywhere else, the Facebook pages, the Twitter pages, the private discussion group, for honest discussions around religion and anything else are all upticking and I've really gotten to know a few of you that I know are listening to the show. really have enjoyed it. On September, 11, Austin Fisher, who is a returning guest to the show, who was the lead pastor at VISTA Community Church in temple, Texas, prior, he wrote a book called young, restless and no longer reformed, which done a little bit quite a bit with Calvinism, and his fall away from fundamentalism.

But the problem is pastors still struggle the same way that you and I do. They just don't get to turn it off. They start to show up on Sunday. And so Faith in The Shadows is about that. How as a person in leadership of the church, how we deal with the problem of evil, how we deal with doubt, how we wrestle with grief, how we deal with cancer and kids, and how we still continue to worship God through that doubt. Because scripture is fairly clear. It's okay today doubt. There's nothing wrong without certainty, and the need to have it, I believe, will kill the church if we can't learn to wrestle and struggle with questions that we have. excited for you to hear today's conversation. If you're not familiar with Austin, I would recommend you find him on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, but on Twitter. You'll you'll see a bit of his theology at play as he as he discusses things with people daily. So you'll find the links and socials in the show notes. Here we go. Faith in the shadows with Austin.

Seth 4:54

Austin Welcome back to the Can I Say This At Church podcast you were one of three people that has come back for the second time.

Good company. So a person that I count is a friend Keith Giles, who also gets his name bashed around a lot for some of his views, but that's fine. And then Alexander Shaia who is one of my, my, he's someone that's greatly impacted my spiritual journey with his works and with our conversations and chats that we've had afterward. And so, welcome to the club of second time commers to the show.

Austin 5:21

It's elite company, I'm glad to be in it. Glad to be back.

Seth 5:24

For those that don't know, you're a pastor in Texas or a co-lead pastor or lead pastor. I'm not sure how you differentiate that when there's two pastors.

Austin 5:32

Yeah, we just got two lead pastors.

Seth 5:35

So, in Texas, and so I already like you, as we said last time, because I'm also from Texas. And for those that want to know a bit more about Austin, and what brought him to where he's at now, I would recommend going back about a month's worth of episodes, and you can hear that there so we will forego all that. I'm greatly excited to talk to you about this book that you had come out on September 11, called Faith in the Shadows, Finding Christ in the Midst of Doubt and I was hoping you could tell me a bit a bit more specifically, of why you wrote the book. Like it's it's extremely personal. And there are stories in here that were deeply moving, as I read it for different reasons. And I'm sure we'll get to it in a minute. But why this?

Austin 6:18

Yeah, so I wrote this book, because I mean, I really did and we'll get into but I almost walked away from from my faith, even as a pastor and really struggled with what to do with this kind of growing doubt I had over a period of years and didn't know how to process it, felt ashamed of it. And so when I kind of got to a better place with it all (I) just thought how helpful it would be for a lot of other people who are doubting who aren't even pastors who don't have the training or resources that I have, who have no clue what to do with their doubts. And we know that people doubt you know, that's not really up for debate, we will doubt that's not a decision we get to make. The only decision we get to make is what we're going to do with our doubts and my kind of conviction in the book was that that makes people abandon their faith, obviously. But people don't abandon their faith because they have doubts so much as people have been in their faith because they think they're not allowed to have doubts.

And a lot of people aren't aware that within the Christian tradition, there's this huge history of faithful doubting, stretching all the way back to the apostles, right. Which is one of the stories I tell in the book, the Great Commission, the disciples are up on this mountain, Jesus is resurrected. They look into the eyes of the resurrected Christ. And we are told they saw him and they worshiped him, but they still doubted. Right‽ And how is that possible? How could somebody look at the resurrected Christ and still doubt? I mean, most of us probably would say, Hey, man, you give me a you know, five minutes with the resurrected Jesus and I wouldn't for the rest of my life. I wouldn't need anything else from God for the rest of my life. And yet the apostles got that and they still doubted and Jesus still built the church on these 11 apostles who saw him but still doubted. And so no Christian should think they have to choose between Jesus and their doubts. Yet most of us do.

Seth 8:01

what do you think is the relationship between faith and doubt? Like, how is that intertwined? Like, can I have a faith that’s worth having without having doubts?

Austin 8:12

So that's a great question. One of the things I really tried to do in the book was not, I'm not trying to convince people they should doubt, you know, some people, you know, there's some seasons where we don't doubt there's some people who just for various reasons, never really doubt. And that's fine. So I don't want to talk you into it.

But it is my conviction that most of us will doubt and that properly understood, Christian faith comes packaged with a set of beliefs, that when they interact with the kind of relentless suffering we find in our world, it's almost inevitable that some sort of crisis of faith will happen. And so one of the things I mentioned in the book in the chapter on evil is if evil doesn’t almost make you walk away from faith at some point, then you may not have Biblical faith or you may not understand it, either. You may not have felt the full weight of evil.

Seth 9:02

Yeah, I agree. So my wife is a nurse and she takes care of some kids that are really sick, like the sickest of the sick that have to come for chemo and cancer and Chrons and there's nothing more disagreeable isn't the strong. I don't know what the strongest word…there's nothing more offensive than a kid 10 years old with brain cancer that dies. There's nothing more evil to me, because there isn't any malicious intent. They didn't do anything! I mean, what could they have done‽ And I talk with people constantly and honestly, that's one of the few times that people actually talk religion with me when it's something medical with their family members. And I don't know why that is why there's something different about that kind of evil as opposed to people in you know, other countries like you referenced an earthquake story in your book, and I don't know why there's any difference in evil. Can we categorize evil in that way? Is there a worse evil?

Austin 10:00

So there's been a long running kind of debate among philosophers and a distinction drawn between moral evil and natural evil. You know, and so moral evil would be, you know, if you do something wrong, and you get a consequence for that, and and that, you know, the consequences seem to greatly outweigh the offense sometimes. That we can at least make some sort of sense of that, like all of us have some sense of justice, and when we do things wrong, and sometimes there are consequences.

Natural evil is more difficult because there's nobody to blame for an earthquake. You know, like, you know, the kids in the orphanage I mentioned in the book who were affected by this earthquake like they didn't do anything to cause an earthquake. The kid with cancer didn't do anything to deserve cancer. And so it's just harder to find culpability. And if there's no culpability, then it just seems like gratuitous, needless suffering. And gratuitous, needless suffering is a big problem for a Christian because we believe in a God of infinite beauty and grace.

Seth 10:53

I didn't send this to you in the questions, but I'm curious because I see the painting that you referenced at the beginning of your book literally right behind you. Can you walk the listeners through and I'm gonna advise you strongly go by the book. Um, honestly, you might be able to see it in the preview copies that Amazon gives you like one or two pages for free; a bit of the story of that Rembrandt Return of the prodigal son, can you walk through a bit of that analogy and how that painting specifically behind you has impacted your I mean, just the way that you worship and the way that you lead people in worship.

Austin 11:22

Sure, so Rembrandt's returning the prodigal was one of the most famous paintings certainly in the Western world. And if you've ever looked at it, you know, you've got the kind of the key figures the father, his prodigal son, the older brother, and we're familiar with those three figures. They're Central. But then on the kind of periphery of the painting, you start to see these other figures and they're kind of in the shadows. And then like in the deepest thing, it's the top left corner, there's this figure that is impossible to see. Unless you have a really high quality print of the painting. It's this figure like kind of in the very back in the shadows watching this, you know, incredible scene of reconciliation, but it looks like It's a woman.

And her face is real kind of indifferent. Like she's taking it in. But she's not experiencing it. She knows that something's happening, but she doesn't quite know what it is. And so I start off the book by telling the story of how I do have this painting in my office and I sit across from it most every day when I have time and just kind of let it center me; like this is my reminder of what the universe is about. It's about the reconciliation of God, God reaching out to sinners.

And I remember one day they're looking at the painting and as I've been going through the season of really difficult and doubt. So the center of gravity and the painting being the reconciliation between father and practical, my eyes kept going to this woman who's tucked away in the shadows and just kind of wondering what she thinks about what she sees. Wondering how she feels about what she sees, and feeling like, in some sense, that's where I was in my faith. Like I kind of believed in God at that point, and I'd seen things but I wasn't there where the action was, it was like I was watching the reconciliation and I was watching other people have faith. But I didn't feel like I really had faith.

I think of the story of Paul and his companions. You know, when Paul gets blinded on the road to Damascus, and Paul hears this voice, he sees something and his friends, like kind of hear something, but they don't see anything. But they see Paul seeing something. And that's kind of what faith had become for me, I could see other people seeing things, but I just wasn't seeing it or hearing it anymore.

Seth 13:24

Yeah. So what changes then? So if I'm trying to relate with this woman that and I will say if you Google it, you can get a good enough quality but you do have to fullscreen the thing to find that image because I've never noticed her either. I've seen that picture in many, many, many books. It's referenced often; is that the only role that she play—is a bystandard that is watching and not interacting at all. Is there any other role that that character in that painting can play in our faith?

Austin 13:57

Oh, I mean, so you know, one thing you could say about her as well, she's not at the center of the action kind of in the scene. She's still there. And she's still hanging around. And I think that's one of the things I learned, as I, you know, was trying to figure out if I was going to walk away from faith or not, is, I both chose too, and other people kind of chose for me to still keep me around.

And even though my faith wasn't, you know, in the light, in a great place, it was still close enough that I caught these little flickers of the light in other people's faith kind of I talked about in a post that other people kind of believed for me for a little bit. And I actually discovered that other people can at least for a time believe for you.

So like, as a pastor, you know, I still had to show up to church and all that. And even though I didn't really know if I believed or how much I believed, I knew other people believed, and I saw their belief, and their belief carried me for a season when I didn't have much belief; and so I've that's a really important lesson to learn, especially for a lot of us Protestants who are so individualistic, and priesthood of all believers is great and all but sometimes it can go sour. And there are times when we need others to believe for us and just showing up even when you don't feel like it can kind of keep you in the game when otherwise you might walk away.

Seth 15:18

That reminds me of, you know, of a person's marriage or of a person's friendship or a relationship with someone that's long term. I mean, even if, even if I'm upset with my wife, we're still in this like, I gotta do it. You can't just peace out. So and that's an oversimplification, but it's an easy analogy.

In your book, you talk about people that are just naturally talented, gifted Christians. You know, the LeBron James of Christians and that they're just born with a gift and that that type of gifting or that type of Christianity is not a faith that will sustain them.

How does that work? Like, what is that kind of Christian and not to name any names what does that look like? Like how Is that something like this eight year old kid is teaching the pastor or they just know the right answers often like, what does that actually look like?

Austin 16:06

Yeah. So what I mean there and I think that's in Chapter One is that there's some people for whom faith specifically, you know, which is one aspect of Christianity-faith. Faith just comes really easily for some people. For some people believing that God is good. And obviously they're even when the most horrendous things happen, like they would never think to question their faith and that's great, you know, again, good on ’em. But for a lot of us, faith does not come naturally. And faith has never come naturally for me, like certain things the general idea of there being a God, that comes naturally enough.

But I've just never found a lot of the, you know, classic, apologetic arguments for Christianity totally persuasive. You know, when I do funerals for children, which I have to do a lot, I'm a pastor at a young church so when I do funerals it's usually for children. I don't, you know, like see a divine purpose behind it, I just see nonsense.

It's all I see. It's all I've ever seen. It's probably all I'll ever see.

And so faith in those moments is the least natural thing imaginable for me. So if you're that sort of person, and again, I'm not saying that's better, I'm not saying that's worse. It's just who I am. And there are a lot of us who are like that. If that's you, then you have to learn some habits to sustain you in this faith that doesn't necessarily come natural for you. And it comes with its own set of strengths and weaknesses. You know, like, I think one of the things I say in the book is what I lack in ease when it comes to my faith I make up for in grit. I got a lot of grit when it comes to my faith and I've learned how to push through and some of us have to grit it out because it’s not easy for us.

Seth 17:38

That's probably the Texas in you and honestly I can relate to that like I'm used to being I mean, if you want to go get groceries, you got to drive an hour. I don't believe that's the case anymore. But at least where I'm from in Texas, like we're planning this out. We're spending $800 and we're getting three baskets full. We got to make it last you don't ask for help you got to make it work which is also dangerous. As we alluded to earlier. You need to Come beside people, if you're always relying on yourself when when you break, everything breaks.

I have found in having these conversations repetitively, and recently having more specific conversations with listeners of the show that it is hard to define God and that I struggled to define God when people ask me who God is, at a level without having any church talking in it. And so when we have faith in a God that we worship, how do we state what that God is?

Austin 18:33

So if you're a Christian, any attempt to explain who God is or what God is like, has to start with Jesus. And so what I always tell people is, “Hey, you know, there are all these arguments out there, historical arguments, rational arguments, on and on and on, and some of them are kind of persuasive, but at the end of the day, none of them are bulletproof.“ And so here's why I'm a Christian. I'm a Christian because a couple thousand years ago, there was this dude named Jesus and He lived a beautiful life, the most beautiful life that's ever been lived. He literally changed the world. And not by raising an army or conquering anything. He changed the world by dying and living a beautiful life while dying and forgiving the people who killed him-and it was so powerful that it literally changed the course of history. And I have experienced some sense of that ministry that changed the world. And so I'm not certain about all sorts of things. I follow Jesus, because I think it's the most beautiful way to live my life. And I think that if you take a few steps towards him, you'll probably find that the same is true for you.

And then all the other stuff, man, like it can make some sense, but it only makes sense. If you're like moving in the direction of Jesus. And you're probably only going to start moving in the direction of Jesus, if you think that Jesus is beautiful.

Seth 19:43

Well, the reason I say it's hard for me is when I'm talking to people, I'm talking to my fundamental fund fund. Ahhh, I hate this word, my fundamentalist evangelical brethren. And so when I describe God, it doesn't sound…I do tend to gravitate to Jesus. But it doesn't sound like what they hear in church each week. Which is funny that Jesus is offensive to Christians often. But that's where I struggle. Lately though I really find myself with I relate a lot to the eastern Eastern orthodoxies of some other people, I just the practices and the cadences, and that's not Protestantism. And so when I try to describe God it's a mix of everything. And so I don't actually know what I am. It's like, your your

Austin 20:31

Yeah, you’re promiscuous in your theological sensibility.

Seth 20:36

(laughter) Promiscuous! I guess that works. Why is fundamentalism a possible issue for the church for the next 10-15 years?

Austin 20:46

So fundamentalism, as I define it in the book is less a specific set of beliefs and it’s more way of believing. So fundamentalism is more spirit than form, more attitude than, you know set of propositions. And so when I say fundamentalism, what I mean is a general posture of doing theology that is very rigid. And that has a deep need for certainty.

And I think fundamentalism is a huge danger because as we've realized the world hasn't got more complex. We've just realized how complex the world always was, is what's happened, you know, in the last couple hundred years. And so fundamentalism, I think, is trying to retreat back to a very naïve picture of what Scripture is almost a complete refusal to acknowledge some of the claims and discoveries that have been made in science; how many different other religions there are, how many really good questions there are out there.

And so fundamentalism, I think, is a danger because it teaches people that the only way to have faith is to have a certain faith. And the only way to have a certain faith, honestly, is to not ask any questions. So it sets people up for failure. And so you got the typical story of the typical, you know, fundamentalist student who was told that they have to believe the earth was created in six literal days, 6000 years ago. If that's not true, then Jesus wasn't God. They go to college, they take freshman biology or geology, and they see all the facts laid out for it. And they realize all these kind of cheap answers they've been given about, you know, how the dinosaurs just didn't make it on the ark or whatever it was, don't work. And so then they're faced with this crisis of faith where they go, “Well, I can believe in you know, science and evolution, or I can believe in Jesus, but I can't believe in both; science and evolution is pretty clearly real. It's a little more tangible than Jesus”. So it looks like I'm walking away from Jesus. And that happens all the time. Like, we know that the majority of students who leave home, end up walking away from their faith. Some of them will come back once they have kids and they need help raising their kids.

But most of them won't come back. And this is what's hard for me about fundamentalism. There's so many legitimate reasons to have a car crisis of faith, right? Like evil! Evil is a great reason not to be a Christian, you know, it's a great reason to have a crisis of faith. You having to choose between Jesus and evolution is a really bad reason to have a crisis of faith. And so I hate that we have created these artificial crises of faith for people, when there's so many legitimate ones out there. And that's what fundamentalism has done. It's just given us more and more reasons to walk away from our faith. And they're really bad reasons for the most part.

Seth 23:26

Yeah, you talk. I like the way you talk about science in your book. You and I could find the page if you're patient with me, but you may know it. You give a quote from someone else basically saying that when, when we're talking about science and the universe and whatnot, it is describing how the world works, and that religion is describing why it works. And that's not right. That's not what…

Austin 23:49

No, it's a quote from a Rabbi named Jonathan Sacks. He's really well known and he says,

science takes things apart to see how they work. Religion puts things together to see what mean,

which is just a really helpful, like punchy explanation to help you see that science and religion look at reality from different angles, asking different questions. And so they come to different conclusions about things. And so there is some overlap in certain areas, but for the most part, science and religion are not in competition with each other.

And when we really trace it out, I mean, this is one of the things I say in the book, I'm not aware of a single core claim of Orthodox Christian faith that science has got anywhere near contradicting, not one, not a single one! And yet there's the general impression among Christians and non Christians, that science and Christianity are incompatible. And I really think that's one area where the modern church and it's not the whole church, like most Catholics, Eastern Orthodox certainly, they don't have this struggle with science that Protestants do. It's mainly a Protestant problem and it's a problem that's mainly rooted in rigid Biblical literalism.

Seth 24:54

No, I agree. I've learned from just personal practice that the other versions of our faith that aren't Protestantism are less legal, less contractual, less bank note of I prayed prayer to Jesus. And so I am guaranteed this. This is the promissory note. Let's do this thing. But that is also the most scary part for me, because I'm not used to dealing with those emotions. It wasn't trained to handle emotions.

Austin 25:21

Yeah, yeah. And again, and there are ways there are things Protestantism does really, really well. I'm still a Protestant and proudly am. I am drawn and just more open to obviously, Eastern Orthodox traditions, Catholic theology, you name it. And so honestly, it's less of a Protestantism issue. And again, it's more of a fundamentalism issue and they're Catholic fundamentalist. There probably aren't many Eastern Orthodox fundamentalist, but they're certainly Catholic fundamentalist and Protestant, fundamentalist, and that's where the problem is. Again, there are enough legitimate reasons to question Christian faith without the fundamentalist, God bless their hearts, giving us extra batteries. And so you know, I found the book love the fundamentalist hate fundamentalism.

Seth 26:05

You say in the book. And this makes me sad, because I feel like it gives a reason for evil to be there. And that's probably wrong. This is probably me inferring something that I'm going through saying the book that a direct correlation between our ability to apprehend beauty and our ability to apprehend brutality, there's just a correlation between there. And there's something about that that feels wrong to me. Like I shouldn't have to experience something horrible to also see something beautiful, or am I reading am I reading more into that than I should?

Austin 26:38

Sure. So it sounds like you're reading it like I've given kind of the Calvinist more or less explanation for evil, which is, you know, there, there has to be hell for us to appreciate heaven. There has to be wrath for us to appreciate God's mercy so on and so forth.

And obviously, I don't believe that I spelled that out pretty clearly in the book. And so what am trying to say there is (that) the more you come to understand just how beautiful and kind God is Jesus is, the more evil becomes a problem for you. Right?

So, if Jesus wasn't really that good, and the God of Christianity was just like kind of good, and evil wouldn't be that big of a problem, because it's like, well, you know, God's good, but he's just kind of good. So, you know, yeah, kids die and terrible things happen to people. But, you know, again, God's just kind of good, so bad is just kind of bad. But if God's infinite goodness, then all of a sudden, any evil becomes infinitely evil for you.

And so that's what I'm trying to say there is once your senses get kind of trained and tuned in to seeing just how beautiful God is, then you see more and more brutality in the world. You're more tuned in to both beauty and brutality. Once you understand how good God is.

Seth 27:55

And I might have missed…so what I'm trying to say is it the brutality is overwhelming. Like it's, it seems unsolvable, it seems untenable. And it doesn't sit right with me. And I know that that means I'm called to do something about it. But I feel like it doesn't matter what I do, it never seems to matter.

Austin 28:16

Yeah, there's a there's a real kind of primal tension and Christian faith, between surrender and rebellion. We're called to, in some sense, rebel against evil. and right it whenever we can. But there's also the sense in which we can never right all the evil we can right so little evil. So we have to surrender in the sense that we have to ultimately trust God to set evil right. I think it was Moltman who said that. At the end of the day, the only credible theodicy is eschatology. Which just means at the end of the day, we're trusting God to sort this thing out. And that's really the only sense we can make of it.

Seth 29:34

Most people know, and I think I've alluded to this in the show, I work at a bank for a living. And there's a part of me that struggles-I'm beginning to believe that capitalism is not inherently wrong, but most likely the way we're doing it is…probably sinful. Just because it enforces greed and want and you will learn allude to a story of a divine Council of demonic beings coming together and being like, Hey, what's the best way to get people to not believe in God?

When I read that story of Mammon, and then everyone else being like, this is an awful idea and st me right now that's gonna work like people. This is gonna, this is gonna hit at their home. I personally wrestle with the daily job, which I feel like I'm pretty good at. And I know its outcomes are not working well for what I think the kingdom of God should look like. I don't know what to do with that.

Austin 30:23

Yeah, so I think probably the chapter in the book that I've been asked about the most is the chapter on Stuff is what I call it, you know, The New Religion. And the basic idea and it comes from first 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, one of those where the writer says, you know, a lot of people have for the love of money is the root of all evil. And many people have walked away from the faith because of it.

And I have just never seen anybody explore this idea that's so clearly laid out in Scripture that a lot of people walk away from faith not because they have you know, existential questions or despair, or, you know, other religions or what do I do about science? No, a lot of people walk away from faith, because they had a lot of stuff. And it made God irrelevant, a pain, someone they needed to get rid of so they can enjoy their stuff. You know, and it's so clearly laid out, but it's never explored. And so that is the idea that stuff causes a crisis of faith because God as clearly laid out throughout all scripture is a threat to our stuff, because God says that all of our stuff is actually his stuff.

You know, that's true of Psalm 24:1,

the earth is the Lord's and everything it contained.

I don't own anything. You Seth, you don't own anything. God owns everything. Everything that we have we have on loan. That's like a pretty tough thing to really believe in this day and age. And so I do think that our stuff which we love has made believing in God very inconvenient. So we've just kind of decided on a subconscious level, none of this was intentional, that it would just be easier to just not believe in God so we could just enjoy our stuff.

And so to your question, that was a long way to get your question, which is well, you know, I'm a part of this system that produces absurd amounts of stuff. And it really, really benefits a few people, and then it crushes a whole lot of people. What do I do? And you know, I don't have an answer to that one. What I would say is the Church, I think, has to become a place where we're willing to give a more honest look about capitalism.

And then more specifically, though, so when we talk about this at my church, and we do a lot people get crushed under the weight of it. Because they're like, well, what am I supposed to do man, like, become Amish and get off the grid? I think it's helpful to go hey, you know what, stop trying to think so big about this. We say at my church all the time. You can't change the world. You can't change the world. You can change your world. And so what we try to practice in our church is within the church, something close to a communalism, not communism, but a communalism, which I think the New Testament clearly lays out. And if we practice something like that, and we've done a little piece to be faithful to what the kingdom of God looks like, and if we invite people to come be a part of this community, that is the church, then we are this little bitty pocket of resistance in the world. Because again, we're not changing the world. We're not changing capitalism, but you could change your world. And that would probably start out by you in your church, living out in the New Testament teachings on wealth, at least a little bit better.

Seth 33:35

With the pushback that I get is not a religious one. So when I'll bring that up anywhere, mostly online, but I've gotten to where I don't even argue with people on social media anymore because I just don't have the mental and emotional capacity…

Austin 33:48

What‽‽ It doesn’t work for you?

Seth 33:49

No. Well, usually I say appreciate your input and respond with a passive aggressive meme. Over and over.

Austin 33:56

It kills ‘em.

Seth 33:58

Well, it makes me sad, but I’m person I hear people say, well, that's just socialism. Like you're not talking about religion, you're not talking about Jesus, you're talking about government. And then it turns into something entirely different from Romans, it turns into an entirely different conversation. And it's like the goalpost moves to a different entire field in a different entire sport that doesn't need to have goalposts. So I really struggle with having an honest conversation with people, because we don't have the same foundational understanding of it, of what we're talking about.

Austin 34:32

Well that’s where one of the things that we tried to do at my church when we deal with this is, I see one of my primary goals as a pastor in this particular cultural day and age is to help people understand that the primary sphere of their political involvement is in their church. Not out in the world, not in Washington DC, not on Wall Street, but when they think politics that first and foremost think their church. Okay, so just put all the big picture government conversations about you know, is capitalism really the best system is it's something else, what do we do?

And just go, Hey, if we were to be faithful to the New Testaments teachings on wealth in our church, what would that look like?

And you start there, and then you let you know those seeds start to grow in people and I found that it does grow over time. Because if you get caught up in the big picture conversation about like, “Oh, you know, should the government be capitalist or not?” All it does is just just a bunch of cathartic chat chat chat chat that no one can even do anything about, like, how can you act on? Is capitalism good or bad? What could you possibly do one way or the other to act on whatever you think about that you can't really do anything if you're thinking big picture. But if you think in the context of your specific community and what the New Testament teaches about community, then it actually becomes actionable.

So I'm not here to tell the government what to do. I'm here to tell my church what to do. And I want my church to understand that their Christian involvement and their political allegiance to Jesus in the context of their actual community should get more of their attention than national conversations about politics. So, inside the church, it probably ought to look something close to socialism, or at least a communalism. And let's just start there and see what happens.

Seth 36:10

And you use this analogy in the book of, you know, having a telescopic lens view, as opposed to a microscopic lens view and so if we are zooming in microscopically, that looks like when someone in my local congregation needs something, we band together and pay for it, or we band together and fix it, or they need a new roof. And so we do it, or whatever it is, is that what I'm hearing you say? Or, you mean the entire community around the church, which I feel like is probably the right answer.

Austin 36:34

Well, this is what I think I'm and I'm a little Hauerwasian when it comes to this, so I love Hauerwas; I think the anabaptist have this really, right. There's a line in Galatians 6, I think it's first 14 where Paul says hey,

do good to everybody, especially those of the household of faith.

Okay, and so we hear that and I think we can go on and that's everything that's wrong. with religion, you know, like take care of your own household first, ignore the world. But that's clearly-no one could accuse Paul of that. Right, Paul evangelized the world. So that's not what Paul's saying. What I think Paul is giving here is a vision of the Christian community has to be a viable, vibrant alternative way of life in the world. Okay. And if it's not, then we don't really have anything to offer the world.

And so focus on making sure that the church is actually a viable, vibrant alternative that in some sense, embodies the kingdom of God. And we invite the world into that community, right. It's a close community, but it's an open community. And that ultimately, is the best thing that we can offer the world.

So specifically, like at my church, we do a lot of benevolence for people who need help addicted, homeless, and we help them up to a certain dollar amount when we can. But we always tell them, “hey, if you become a part of our community, I promise you'll get taken care of.” I've never met a single person at my church who had a serious need that was not met and we're not afraid to attach that little bitty, you know, carrot at the end of the stick, because we know ultimately, if we just give them a little help here and there, we're not providing any sort of holistic healing. But if they come and they ground themselves in our community, they're going to experience holistic healing. So we don't mind giving that caveat. Because that's ultimately the best thing we could offer somebody come be a part of our community, and I promise you'll get taken care of.

Seth 38:21

Well, and I think, if it's intentional like that the act of giving whatever you're giving away, I've never given something away and not felt good about doing it. And there's something that's restorative about giving your time, your whatever.

There's two more things I want to ask you about. And so you say in your book that you felt like, what do you say I've got it written down here.

You felt yourself teetering on the on the edge of just believing that there is no God, which we talked about at the very beginning, but that you were not capable of not believing in a god. And either I just realized that's a double negative where or wrote it that way. I probably wrote it down wrong. What does that mean? Like? How can someone not be capable of not believing in a god? Because I know a lot of agnostics and atheists that would highly say absolutely not. It's entirely possible to not believe in a god.

Austin 39:11

Yeah! So if you grew up in the Western world, which most people listen this probably did. My thesis would be that you are in a certain sense not capable of understanding what it would be like to not believe in God. Because the world in which you live and move and have your being is so grounded and rooted in the idea of God. That is just kind of inescapable. It's ubiquitous. So many of the things that you believe in, are so inescapably tied to the idea of God, Christianity specifically, but the idea of God at minimum, that you're just not really capable of even understanding what it would mean to not believe in God.

So for example, I mean, a lot of the really vocal kind of new atheist. So you're talking Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, those folks tend to like really high views of, you know, it being important for there to be justice and fairness, and so on and so forth in the world. But those are ideas that really don't make any sense without there being a God. And those were ideas that did not exist in their present form. Until what I would call the moral eruption of Christianity forever changed the way we think about morality, the way we think about other people.

And so if you're an heir to the Western tradition, which again, everybody listening to this podcast is, then I just, you can say you don't believe in God, but I just don't think you know what you're talking about. Because you would have to so reinvent who you are, and the cultural process that has produced who you are at this particular place at this particular set of circumstances at this particular point in time, that I just really don't think even know what you're talking about when you say you don't believe in God. Like, you can feel like there probably isn't a God, you can wish there's not a god. But to reject God wholesale would mean a rejection of basically the Western tradition, which I just don't think any of us are fully capable of. Yeah, we can say we do, but we don't know what we're talking about. I don't think.

Seth 41:21

So when you say moral eruption. Do you mean specifically for Christianity or the West? Or do you mean, like globally, like, when Christianity became Christianity? You know, when the church was founded like it, it changed the moral compass of humanity. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Austin 41:35

Oh, absolutely. I mean, again, there was some basic ideas of, you know, justice in the ancient world that have been around for a long time. We know that I would never dispute that. But this idea that you know, all humans, every single human, is created with inalienable rights with, you know, the constitution here, these rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that no human deserves to be tortured or trampled on. Like those were not believed in the ancient world. And those were not beliefs that were given to us as a result of enlightenment rationality, those were beliefs that were given to us by Christianity.

Nothing like that nothing to that level had ever been believed in the history of the world. We all now just kind of assume that the Enlightenment gave us those ideas, but it's complete nonsense. Christ gave us those ideas. And again, they're present in some ways and some other religious traditions. But specifically, that idea that every human has be created in the image of God with a dignity that is violated Prince and pauper, sin and sinner alike, is an idea that Christianity gave us and it's an idea that's so deeply embedded in the western worldview, that we don't even know how to get rid of it. And again, it is not an idea that reason magically gave to us one day reason you go around the world, and if you're reasonable, the world does not tell you that all people are created equally with you know, a right to life liberty and pursuit of happiness if the exact opposite.

Seth 43:04

Yeah, now you just ride around my county and the world will tell you that.

Austin 43:09

Yes! It’s complete nonsense.

Seth 43:11

The fact that schools are portioned money at a federal or local level, based on the average property value of the neighborhood they're in would tell you that; like, there's a lot of things that tell you that and I'd argue that we don't believe that all people are created equal, because we don't act like it. And when we do try to act like it people either call you racist or racist or racist, it doesn't really matter which direction you're taking it from. If you're coming at it from you know, a white privilege or white power, a black, what doesn't matter what, what angle you're coming from, you're racist for that side. Which is probably the wrong the wrong category to try to justify people as if they're supposed to be created equal. I guess you could be humanist and I don't mean that in a philosophical way.

I lied to you. I have two questions. I don't. How do you describe hell to someone because when I read Your chapter as I went through my Oh, so I know he's that No, I don't. Oh, so I know where he's at. No, I don't. And especially when you start talking about Hitler, it reminded me a lot of when, when Rob Bell got excommunicated from allowing to be self-professing Christian, although I still enjoy his stuff, where he walks through as his Nooma video kind of ways of, you know, talking about Gandhi and heaven and Hitler and heaven and that type of stuff.

Can you walk through that story of Hitler and how hell or how heaven may actually be a hell for him? And then what you believe because I'm genuinely confused on what you believe.

Austin 44:35 (Laughter)

What every author loves to hear! No, so

Seth 44:39

I mean that to say, because you speak well to all three parts like you, you speak well to all and so. I don't know. I'm having trouble voicing it.

Austin 44:48

Sure. So the Hitler story. It's an imaginary scenario similar to what CS Lewis does in the Great Divorce where I just say, Hey, you know, if Hitler got five minutes and have it what do you think it would feel like to him? So he got through the scene you know and obviously he shows up and let's say St. Peter welcomes him at the pearly gates. St Peter’s a Jew, Hitler would not like that very much and so Hitler goes in and he tries to assemble you know, and an army of angels to take over heaven and all the angels, you know, won't give him the time of day. And then Jesus welcomes the man and says, you know, eight off you know, little man, he did some really terrible things, but I forgive you and I have a place for you in my kingdom.

And Hitler, you know, probably thanks. What do you mean? You mean, forgive me, I don't you know, I don't need to be forgiven. I didn't do anything wrong. I'm a big deal. I conquered a lot of Europe back in the day for a few years. I don't bow before you you bow before me.

Big idea would be if Hitler got Five Minutes in Heaven, it would probably feel like an eternity in hell to him. And so what I'm trying to tease out there is this idea that heaven and hell I think are better thought of not as you know, these places that God has created and God sends people to, and more of realities that people have created for themselves because of the people they have become over the course of a lifetime.

There are some people who spend their entire lives and I almost was a person like this rejecting love and goodness and forgiveness and mercy, and loving cruelty and wickedness and unforgiveness and bitterness. And if you become a person like that, I don't think you would like heaven very much.

You know? I think you could be in heaven and it would feel like hell to you. And so that's kind of the idea is that what we call the fire of God's love will feel like heaven to some people, and it feel like hell to other people.

The lake of fire that we find in Revelation is really just what the love of God feels like experienced by a soul that has spent its whole life rejecting the love of God. And so hell exist. Absolutely. But it's something that we very much choose and have created for ourselves. It exists on our end, not Gods end. God will love all people forever. I mean, I think Scripture is very clear about that. But I do think some people might hate God for it forever, because they've spent their whole lives moving away from God, and hating other people and hating God. And so you know, God's not going to magically make them enjoy heaven. They've decided that they don't want to be people who love what is true, good, or beautiful.

So hell exist. But it's just what heaven feels like to people who spent their whole lives becoming crooked and hateful.

Seth 47:35

Do you think they can opt out of that, like just Hey, snuff me out? Like I'm really not interested in any of this? Like, is that is that a possibility?

Austin 47:44

You know, that's beyond my paygrade. But I think Dallas Willard has this line I think it's in the divine conspiracy, where he says that everything that is just becomes more and more itself.

And so if you have spent your whole life again rejecting that which is true, good and beautiful. I don't see any reason why that would change in eternity. I think you probably just move further in the direction of painfulness and cruelty and wickedness until you probably just snuff yourself out.

Seth 48:15

That's sad. That's very sad.

Austin 48:19

It is a ad and I hope it's not true but you know I think that's probably the best way to make sense of Scripture and the churches traditional teaching on how

Seth 48:30

I asked that because I'm still struggling. So just full disclosure, quite a few people not in the less listen to the show, oddly enough, predominant still the West, but the most popular episodes are ones on doubt and a few on hell and the one on atonement, which blows my mind.

I've talked about so many topics, and it's the tentpole issues that continue, month in and month out, to be chewed on and eaten the most. And I still find myself who waffling most of the time, I tend to be on the traditional-annihilationlist views, but even then I still don't know the nuance is. And I'm, I'm think I'm totally fine too with changing that. And so that's probably why I read that chapter that way, because I'm still not quite solid on where I'm at.

So as I was finishing reading your book, I just finished the day prior, a book on stigma and psychological health, specifically in pastors because you're not allowed to not show up. You have to be there and you have to, I guess you have to fake it. I'm not a pastor, but you can't be broken because I am. I need you to unbreak me and, and then the news of the gentleman in California, the pastor that committed suicide, and I read what his wife wrote. And then I was reading your chapter and I was listening to John Mark McMillan as I do when I'm sad and he's got a song called…there's something about his lyrics.

Austin 49:57

I love John Mark McMillan

Seth 49:59

Oh, man. Maybe it's the way he sings them. There's a song in there where I think it's called thunder and the lightning, where he says, you know, they say I'm struggling with all this stuff. And when I go out and I yell, and I'm really having a bad day, I'm having a bad year, I'm having a bad, whatever. And you always seem to find me somewhere in between the thunder and the lightning. And the next morning, I woke up, I read that part of your book where you're like Jesus is that. Jesus is, I think you say

Jesus is the lightning and everything else is the thunder.

Austin 50:29

Yeah.

Seth 50:30

And I just had to shut the book because like, I can't do this right now. I don't deal with emotions well. I'm not ready for this. So I would like to end on that. So as as a form of Hope is when we're doubting when we're grieving. When we're struggling, and when we feel like we can be honest with ourselves, what does it look like when Jesus is the lightning and everything else is the thunder?

Austin 50:49

Yeah, so I use that metaphor in the book to try to explain this idea that Christian faith can be incredibly complicated; and you know, so many people have so many different ideas about who God is and how we should think about God, it can become paralyzingly confusing sometimes. And so when you get to that place and you don't know where to turn, and you don't know if you believe anymore, and you definitely don't know what you believe, even if you believe, then, you know, go back to the source of why you believed in the first place.

And again, if you're like me, you ended up believing not because someone made an awesome argument about you know, well the tomb was empty, and then there's this historical this and that, and they found the walls of Jericho at some point. And, you know, here's this indisputable argument for the existence of God based on fine tuning in the universe, whatever. They found the ark. Most of us, at rock bottom aren't Christians for any of those reasons, were Christians because again, there was this guy named Jesus from Nazareth, and he lived this life and it was the most beautiful life that's ever been lived. The ripple effects of that life have so carried out throughout history that it's literally changed the world. And it's changed me. Like I'm a very different dude than I was before I met Jesus. And I don't know if I'm a better person than people who don't have Jesus, but I know I'm better with Jesus than I am without Jesus.

And so when everything else gets unclear for me, I go back to the source of why I believed in the first place, and I'm never disappointed by Jesus. Like I've been disappointed in a lot of other things. Arguments make sense and don't make sense. Sometimes my feelings come and go, but I've never been disappointed in Jesus. And so when it gets really confusing, and you're heartbroken, you don't know where to go, go back to why this Christianity thing started in the first place. And it started because there was this dude named Jesus who lived a beautiful life and claim to change the world and has changed the world and has changed a lot of our lives. So that's where you go back tooyou go back to the lightning when you got nothing else.

Seth 52:52

And everything else is just noise. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's a beautiful picture. Beautiful analogy. Austin, thank you so much for coming back on a genuine Appreciate it genuine pleasure to talk to you.

Austin 53:02

Absolutely, the feeling is very mutual and we'll do it again sometime.

Seth Outro 53:29

Thank you again for listening to today's episode. To protect my voice, the outro will make that decision short as possible.

Today's music graciously given permission from the brilliance, which if you are not familiar with The Brilliance, you need to fix that problem right now. So two recommendations-three recommendations. Go to the website. CanISayThisAtChurch.com leave me some feedback, consider supporting the show on Patreon. really enjoy giving Speak with you. And obviously enjoy each and every one of you to support the show. I encourage you to do so if you don't already do that. You'll find the links to today's music in the show notes and on the Spotify playlist called Can I Say This At Church? I'll talk to you next week.

Be blessed.