Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Brian 0:00

I think in just about every, well let me say this, in every religion I have studied and gotten to know people who are part of there is a pull of that religion that calls people towards love. That calls people towards mutual respect, that calls people toward working for the common good, that calls people towards humility and says we don't have all the answers. That calls people to be humble and keep learning through their whole lives and through all generations. So that pull really exists. And in every religion I've been exposed to, there's another pull that is like, we're better than everybody else. We've got it right. They've got it wrong. They're out to get us. We better defend ourselves.

And it's just remarkable how similar…so I've become convinced that that problem isn't a religious problem. That is a human problem. And because human beings are involved, it shows up in every religion. And this, to me is a wonderful thing about Jesus, you can say, “Oh, Jesus was entering into this human problem" and if we say that we want to follow Him, then we are going to take very seriously what he said about how to deal with that human problem.” We're going to watch how he does it in the stories about him. And we're going to listen to what he says, in his teaching, and find that and we'll find great guidance and resources for dealing with it in our situation. Because it's not just, it's not just religion. There are different ways of being American. There are different ways of being a capitalist there. You know what I'm saying? There's a more and less loving version of everything. And if we believe that the Spirit is the presence of God in this world that evokes love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control, if that's what we believe when we look for those fruits and say, Oh, it's not that this person has that religious bumper sticker on the car; or that they're wearing that religious label. It's, oh, this person is showing fruit that comes from the Holy Spirit. I don't think that's being less Christian to believe that I think that's being deeply Christian to believe that.

Seth Intro 2:48

Everybody welcome back to the Can I Say This At Church podcast. I am Seth, your host. Thank you for downloading today's episode. Thank you for your continued support and listenership and thank you, most importantly, to the patrons. There's been a recent uptick in some of that. And so I, I encourage more to do that. And for those of you that have been here since the beginning and a new patrons, thank you so, so, so much, you have no idea how much your generosity helps the show. Just a brief reminder, if you have not yet done so hit pause, go to wherever you happen to download this from and just rate and review the show. Those are slowly but surely coming in. But that does help the show reach more ears and I thank you in advance for doing so.

As we look at surveys and research, and it seems like every other week or month, new survey comes out that says millennials and the generation after millennials could care less about the church. I am a millennial. And I do mere that I feel like I care about the church, but I know so many of my friends could care less but they are generous. They are humble and they do care about humanity. Just The church doesn't do it for them. And so what does that mean? So I sat down and spoke with Brian McLaren, who is very, very well spoken. And he wrote a book called The Great Spiritual Migration. And we talked about that what is the future of evangelicalism? How do we talk about this with our kids? How do we deal with our religion in America? If we're migrating away from something, where are we going to? How do we prepare to get there? And how do we, how do we get healthy now today? How do we begin to actively engage and help in our communities and our families to do church better? To do religion and Christianity better? And so I think those are big questions. So here we go with Brian McLaren.

Seth 5:50

Brian, thank you so much for making the time and I know we've worked through many different times over the past few months to come onto the Can I Say This At Church podcast. I appreciate you being here today.

Brian 6:01

I'm very honored to be with you.

Seth 6:04

So I gotta be honest, I've read not all of your books. I realized this year you've written for two decades and so I'm still young enough that I wasn't aware of you even though I probably should have been as I was growing up and had I been maybe I wouldn’t have…

Brian 6:20

No, no apologies necessary. You're one of the seven and a half billion people that has never heard of me so no worries.

Seth 6:26

I'm sure it's less than that at least 7 or 6.9 billion or so it's I'm sure it's but to be honest, I feel like if I had maybe my angst over the past decade would not have been so prolonged or so whatever the adjective is. I don't say this half heartedly, I'm extremely excited to talk with you and and I think the conversation that will have about your most recent book and kind of where that leaves the trajectory for the church is worthwhile and needed.

So can you start with since there are 6.9 billion people, at least that are maybe unfamiliar with you can you just briefly bring us up to speed on you? Just in a nutshell, kind of your upbringing and what impacted your life all the way to now?

Brian 7:16

Sure, well, I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian household. Nowadays they call them evangelicals. But I really just think evangelicalism and fundamentalists are, you know, like, like, vanilla and, you know, vanilla fudge or something. They're pretty closely related. And I was very sincere kid, firstborn child. So I wanted to please everybody and I learned the Bible. I memorized so many Bible verses and went to Bible camp and went to Bible club and you know, I was just very much in that culture. When I became a teenager I really was interested in science. And I remember thinking, I thought evolution was just fascinating.

And I remember my Junior High Sunday School teacher said, No, no, you have to make a choice. You can either believe in God or evolution, but you can't believe in both. And I remember I was 14 years old, and I thought, okay four more years, and I'm out of here. And I also loved rock and roll music, and I played in a couple of bands. And back in those days, fundamentalists and evangelicals didn't like rock and roll. So of course, nowadays, they hold it a bit better. But anyway, I just thought I'm on my way. I'm having a kind of surprising, quite a powerful spiritual experience in my teenage years in connection with the Jesus movement and the charismatic movement.

So I went from fundamentalist to charismatic and in the process, I was exposed to what people know called Neo Calvinism So I just got thrown in the deep end and somewhere in there, I started reading Francis Schaeffer and CS Lewis, who back in the 1970s, when I was kind of coming of age, when I was young adult, they were the smartest Christians that I knew about. I should say I also am very grateful I was an English major. And when I was in graduate school, I ended up doing my thesis on a Catholic novelist named Walker Percy who, in many ways, opened the door for me to something a lot broader and deeper than, you know, various flavors of evangelicalism / fundamentalism that I’d grown up with.

And my plan was to be college English teacher, I started teaching and but during that time, I ended up being part of a little group that started a church and several years into that ended up leaving teaching to become a pastor. I was pastor for 24 years and during that time, all of the issues and questions that you spoke about, you know, causing you angst. were causing me a lot of angst. And I wasn't really aware of anybody who was grappling with the same questions I was. When I started writing my first book, I managed to stumble across a few people who, you know, I felt I wasn't totally alone. But in many ways, that angst that you spoke of, is what drove me to write, I was gonna say drove me to drink, but it's an equally addictive and sometimes destructive habit of writing. And so that's what I've been doing for the last 20 years.

Seth 10:38

Yeah, well, and for those listening if you're in that 6.9 billion, just stop right now. It's not uncommon to find some of Brian's books on sale quite frequently well, less than a Starbucks coffee, some of the older material, and it is well worth digging through that. I am curious so the title of your book is The Great Spirit Migration. And when I hear the word migration, I instantly go to birds. And it implies that I'm going somewhere, but I'm also going to come back and so where am I going; or where is the church going? What are you trying to say and are we coming back or are we just are we immigrating, not migrating?

Brian 11:19

Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm a big bird guy. So I'm interested in birds in their migration, as well. And you could say there's a cyclical dimension to this. In many ways what in for those of us who are in the United States, America has the cyclical pattern of populism and an openness you know, racism, moving away from racism, a drift back toward it, populism you know, you there certainly are cyclical dimensions to American culture. And maybe even just in human behavior that we the pendulum tends to swing from one side to another.

But you know, another way to think about migration is to think that human beings as far as we know by science right now, every bit of DNA and every human being in the world came from a group of people in East Africa somewhere around 200,000 years ago. And some time around 70,000 years ago, they started their population grew enought that they started migrating out of Africa. That has not been a cyclical or Boomerang kind of migration. That's been a steady expansion around the planet.

And, of course, while we're talking, there's a good chance that the space station will go overhead to remind us that our migration might only be in its very earliest stages. Who knows, maybe by the lifetime of some people who are listening, there'll be a human colony on Mars. So, you know, we human beings are migratory creatures. And that's really the the image that I wanted to work with this idea that we're on a journey that we don't stand still that we always move forward. And one of the horrible traps, that religious communities fall into. This certainly happens in Christianity, but it happens in Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and so on, is we get this idea that there is some golden age, whether it's right now or 50 years ago, or 500 years ago, and that religions job is to remain nostalgic about that golden age and hold on to it as strong as possible. When I think a much better way to think about religion is that religion is actually an evolutionary survival strategy and that at its best religion is one of the things that helps us survive and continue to adapt and move forward in changing times.

And the fact that that might sound crazy and radical right now just tells you that we're, I hope in the later stages, of a major regressive turn in religion. And that's part of what I'm arguing against.

Seth 14:20

And when I read your book I was reminded of and I can't think of the book right now. I am at a loss, Phyllis Tickle, wrote a book and she talks about like a great upheaval or a rummaging every 500 years, and it's new. I've started reading about back in February. And as I read, like, This can't be true. And so I started researching out that she's onto something every 500 years. And so I mean, we just last year had the 500th anniversary of, you know, the Protestant Reformation.

And so I wonder, do you think, is there any truth to that, and how does that relate to a spiritual migration? Because what I see is, as I go by through and and I've recently found a channel on Netflix or Amazon, I can't remember which I can go back and look at the news broadcasts from the 50s and the 60s and the 30s. And there's not really anything changed except for the quality of the camera work. And some of the reporting like, it's the same horrible, racist, just horrible things. It doesn't matter if it's the church, or if it's politics, all we're doing is changing the name. And so I hear a possible shift or reformation coming. But I also don't see anything changing, if that makes sense? And maybe I'm not saying that well, I don't know.

Brian 15:35

No, no Seth. But I think you're the kind of tension that you're feeling is exactly what an intelligent person should feel. Let me say it this way. If people are optimistic and you know, see the sunny side and say, oh, we're, you know, in every day in every way, we're getting better and better and that kind of thing. That's just incredibly naive. You know, just the issue of weapons, for example. The human species has been creating more and more dangerous weapons for a whole history and, you know, in the generation just before mine, when nuclear weapons were unleashed, you know, this was epic. This was ethical. This was, I think, an inflection point in history, where suddenly the stakes became higher.

A friend of mine said, well, Dr. King said our choice isn’t between compassion and lack of compassion, it's between compassion and non existence, or non violence or non existence. And, so I think it's really unwise to be overly optimistic. On the other hand, let me give you just maybe one real quick example. I’m 62 so when I was a kid in the early 60s, you know, there were only about four TV stations. And on Saturday and Sunday afternoons, they played movies. And they were usually black and white movies from the 1930s 1940s and 1950s. And when I was a boy, it was extremely common on Saturday or Sunday afternoon to see a man in a movie, flap, or push or hit a woman.

And what is really shocking for people to hear is it wasn't the bad guys doing this. It was the good guys doing this. In other words, violence toward women was tolerated, and it was so common and when I tell people that today they're so shocked to hear it. Well, the truth is, we really changed and we don't show those movies anymore. In fact, people are appalled to even see those movies anymore. And that's just in my lifetime.

Same thing with smoking. Smoking was normative, you know, 50 years ago and if anybody would have said, at Sunday it will be up the legal to smoke in a restaurant or to smoke on an airplane, or something public place. People would say well that will never ever happen. So, I agree with you. It's unwise to be overly optimistic. It's unwise to be naive. But on the other hand, it's also inaccurate to say that we aren't making progress.

And I also would say that an excessive pessimism can be just as harmful as an excessive optimism. Optimism says, oh, everything's gonna be okay. Just take it easy and relax. And there's a kind of pessimism that says nothing's gonna get any better. There's no hope. Just take it easy and relax and both end up being anesthetizing and turn people into becoming complicit and the worst things happen. So all that's to say, I think the tension that you're articulating is a very good and healthy and wise tension.

Seth 19:19

That's both encouraging, but it's also slightly exhausting, because I, and you talked about earlier when you began writing, and I hear some of that same…I had some of the same thoughts. And that's this has been my outpouring, I'm not much of a writer. But I do like to have the thought experiments, which is the outpouring of this podcast. I did not expect that many people would listen, and I was wrong. And I also did not expect how often I would get called, you know, a heretic or I’ve basically inserted myself into a tension that I don't know I was theologically prepared for, and that's fine. I mean, that's and to reference the movies that when you were speaking about movies, do you Know and shows being dismissive and abusive towards women, I immediately thought of John Wayne, because he does that often. And I watched those with my grandma growing up. And for those listening if you don't believe me, find the movies and he does that. And not only the women but the children. But he would often just throw a kid in the river and say, What do you mean, you don't know how to swim? And so I feel like I've done that to myself. But I guess it's encouraging to hear you say that that should be expected, but it's also…I find it exhausting.

Brian 20:28

Yeah, well, and I don't want to minimize that at all Seth, but let me just say that it takes a lot of courage to be the first person to ask questions in a community that is addicted to a certain kind of certainty, and that has a social pressure against questioning convention. Takes a whole lot of courage. For the second person that takes like 3% less codes, but it still takes a lot of courage and for the third person, maybe 3% less, in other words, that as the process goes, I think it becomes easier.

But the first people in any group that are in that social circle, that are the ones asking questions, it really is, there's a huge headwind that you're going into. One way that's helped me understand this is I’ve become convinced that thinking is a social act. In other words thinking doesn't just happen inside my brain because my brain is wired into the brains of all the people to whom I belong. And, and so I find that if I'm in the center of a group, like just sort of the average of a group, it's easy to think. But the closer I moved to the margins, the way, I said sometimes I feel that I'm thinking in molasses, you know, it's just harder to think. And that's totally apart from the negative feedback that comes, it's just, we're so wired for tribal behavior, that to differe from our tribe is really, really tough. It really takes courage, you know, as someone, you know, rooted in the gospels, that's why I think Jesus had so much to say about people not being ashamed of him. And not being ashamed of his message, and, and so on, because it takes courage to differ.

Seth 22:28

As I'm questioning things, and I'm trying to interpret Scripture and I'm trying to make sure that I guess I'm migrating to a healthy place, knowing that I'm an influence on my children, and my church and the people that I work with. How do I make sure that as I'm dealing with Bible and theology and living that I'm not just one huge mobile Dunning Kruger hypothesis that's doing at the same time?

Brian 22:53

Yeah, well, first of all, you know, the thing you'll hear from your critics and it's a slippery slope. If you question this, then you’ll question that and the next thing you know, you'll be a Nazi throwing babies in the river, right? So you know, there is an awful lot of anxiety. But here's the problem. And I'm not about to make your life easier Seth,

Seth 23:18

Fantastic, thank you so much.

Brian 23:20

I'm going to make it harder in a positive direction. And here's what I'd say, when you learn about our religious history. And you learn, for example, the role that white of angelical Christianity played in justifying and perpetuating and defending slavery, or the role that white evangelical Christianity played in opposing the civil rights movement, or in opposing equality of women, or the ongoing stigmatization of LGBTQ people, or in the exploitation of the environment, or in an absurd eschatology that basically tells people be happy when things get worse becasue that's a sign that Jesus is coming. So don't do anything to try to make things better just, you know, just, in offense be a bystander to the decay of the world. You know, all of those elements of our heritage say that if you don't ask questions you're in great danger too.

In other words, you're coming from a tradition that has done remarkable, amazing harm. I didn't even mention what our ancestors did to the native peoples and justify that based on the Bible. I didn't even mention the horrific history of Christian anti semitism. And so you put all that together and you realize life is dangerous and we have moral responsibility. Asking questions is risky, but not asking questions, I would say is even riskier. And what that means is we just have to be morally responsible people. And I think we have to be humble and, you know, however, I know people different places in their faith and so on. But whatever degree whatever meaning prayer has to a person to be saying, Please help me not lead others astray, please help me find the truth. Those sort of sincere, gut, prayers, it seems to be, are deeply valuable on many levels, but just on a psychological level, they're a reminder to us that we don't have all the answers and their in a sense a reminder to us to not just be reactive, and not just be reacting against one thing isn't been jumping to the opposite extreme. You put all that together and suddenly, it matters that we become sincere seekers of truth. And I think that's a great place to be.

Seth 25:46

I agree and you're right, that doesn't make my life any harder or any easier. But that's fine life shouldn't be easy. I am curious and it's because it happened to me last night. So and when I told a friend of mine that I actually works in Chicago with the Evangelical Covenant Church. He had said, Well, you know that Brian has talked about that before. And I said, No, I did not know this. And so I put something on Facebook that said, you know, remember when we throw around words like heretic, that Luther was branded as one up until, like 2008. And so, and it wasn't until I forget, which I think was Pope Benedict basically said, Yeah, nevermind, I don't think he meant to hurt the church. So we'll say he's not a heretic, but for 500 years. He was a heretic.

I tried to tell people remember when you call someone that, that you are currently sitting in a faith from one that was branded that—and it's awful hypocritical. And so he had said, well, you have to ask him about something called, I think you said “generous orthodoxy”, which is off the topic of spiritual migration, but I'm genuinely curious and I did not have time to prepare or even read that book from last night's today?

Brian 27:02

Oh, no, no worries. So, yeah, in 2004, I had a book come out called Genesis Orthodoxy. And the funny backstory is I've written a couple of very controversial books, I've written a book called A New Kind of Christian and the head got me a lot of a lot of people really, really helped them and other people. You know, it put me on target on my back.

But I wanted to write a book that would be completely non-controversial, and just very, you know, kind of pastoral and so on. So I wrote this book, Generous Orthodoxy, which ended up making some people matter than anything I've ever written. But the title comes from a theologian named Han's Fry. And Hans Fry said something like this, I'm going to guess he said this in the 1960s or 1970s. Maybe a little later than that, but contract said something like this,

that the way forward is going to involve certain elements from liberal Christianity. certain elements from conservative Christianity,

and he said,

what that will lead us to is a generous orthodoxy.

Now, I know that the word orthodoxy means a whole lot of different things to a lot of different people. It's like that word heretic. It's the flip side of that. What a Calvinist calls orthodoxy, Methodists calls heresy and what a Protestant calls orthodoxy a Catholic calls heresy and what the Catholic calls orthodoxy the Eastern Orthodox might call heresy.

So, you know, these are all contested words. But what I, when I use that word, here's what I mean. I think there is a way for us to remain to be even more deeply committed to Jesus I and even more deeply rooted in the Scriptures but that is actually a way out of fundamentalism of whatever sort. And that actually sends us into the world with generosity toward our neighbors who have whatever religion or non religion. And I don't think that that path is a path of less fidelity to Jesus, and less fidelity to the best of the Christian tradition. I think it's actually more faithful.

And that's why the book that book, Generous Orthodoxy, got a lot of attention because I basically was saying that if you're not generous, if you're not living a way of life, which is way of love, that sends you into the world to love your Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish atheist neighbor as you love yourself, then I don't actually think that's orthodox. And that your Orthodoxy is to paraphrase Paul and noisy gong and clanging cymbal. And so, you know, I feel totally comfortable and confident saying that, but I know it really upsets some people.

Seth 29:59

Yeah. It definitely does upset quite a few people. I find that people don't like when you question their certainty because they don't have anything to fall back on.

You just referenced you know other churches you know Muslim brothers and everything else. So how should our church and us as members of it work in unison with people of other faith?

Brian 31:08

Yeah, so let me, if you don't mind, let me just take one word that people like you and me who are brought up in a certain form of Christianity and a word that was very clearly defined for us the word salvation. And for us salvation meant we were born with this thing called Original Sin or total depravity. And that meant that God was obligated to torture us forever in a conscious torment in hell. And that unless we could somehow get an exemption from that original sin, we certainly couldn't work our way out of it. So we would need some sort of legal pardon or exemption. You know, our future is hot.

And so the word salvation means the exemption you get from being punished by God. Well look I've done 20 wrong things I need all the forgiveness that's available to me. I'm not downgrading forgiveness. But that's just not what the word salvation means in the Bible. And, and I know that's shocking for people to hear because we've been so deeply indoctrinated in a certain religious tradition. But if you go into Hebrew Scriptures, first of all, they didn't believe in heaven and hell. And I know that comes as a shock for a lot of people, but it's uncontestable that ancient Hebrew people had no concept of heaven and hell as Christians do. They had no concept of original sin. These were concepts that didn't even exist in early Christianity for a couple of three, three or four centuries.

But the word salvation derives its meaning from the story of the Exodus. God saved people from slavery. And so I think the deepest meaning of the word salvation is not getting an exemption card so you won't go to hell. I think the meaning of Salvation is being liberated from the unjust, dehumanizing, cruel, destructive systems that we human beings make. If you want to say it this way, it means being liberated from human systems of sin, on a personal and social level. So if you understand salvation as liberation, then when I see my Muslim neighbor, who's being oppressed, I want my neighbor to experience liberation. By the way, including if he's being oppressed by my fellow Christians. I want liberation for him. Not in spite of me being a Christian, but because I'm a Christian. And I believe that Jesus taught a message of liberation and lived a lifestyle of liberation, and launched a movement of liberation on all levels.

And so, then, if I have a Muslim neighbor, who wants to work for mutual liberation, who wants to work for the common Good, I just celebrate, I rejoice, I say thank God that the Spirit of God is at work in the world to inspire more and more people to want to work for the common good and work for a shared liberation. And I want to show them every single guest that I've received through being a follower of Christ. But I also don't want to impose on them all the dysfunction that I've experienced in the Christian religion.

So to me, being a follower of Christ means of course, I love my Muslim neighbor as myself, and my Buddhist and my Catholic and my Baptist and whatever neighbor. To be a follower of Christ is to learn to love others as you would as you love yourself and to treat others as you wish to be treated.

Seth 34:47

I saw this and I didn't verify it, but I've seen recently it had basically a lot of the the major religions broken down and it said, basically, you know, Jesus said, Love your neighbor as yourself. And then it had text on the Quran and texts from the Torah and texts from Buddha and texts from everywhere. And they all basically boiled down to that simple truth. And I'm not saying that all paths, quote unquote, merge into one. I'm not saying that mostly because I haven't really studied that.

But I find it not a random consequence or a random coincidence that many of the major religions that still exist today have that same tenant at their heart. If you can get past the ISIS version of Islam, or the Westboro Baptist version of Christianity, or, you know, the extreme, the extreme wing or the extreme arm of whatever the religion is that you're looking at.

Brian 35:41

I think that's very well said. Seth, if you think about it like this, I think in just about every, every well let me say this in every religion I have studied and gotten to know people who are part of, there is a pull of that religion. That calls people toward love that calls people to our mutual respect, that calls people toward working for the common good. That calls people towards humility and says we don't have all the answers. That calls people to be humble and keep, keep learning through their whole lives and throughout generations. So that pull really exists. And in every religion I've been exposed to, there's another pull that is, like, we're better than everybody else. We've got it right. They've got it wrong. They're out to get us we better defend ourselves. And it's just remarkable how similar so I've become convinced that that problem isn't a religious problem. That is a human problem. And it because human beings are involved, it shows up in every religion. And this to me is a wonderful thing about Jesus. You can say, Oh, Jesus was entering into this human problem. And if we say that we want to follow him then we are going to take very seriously what he said about how to deal with that human problem.

We're going to watch how he does it in the stories about him. And we're going to listen to what he says in his teaching, and find that and we'll find great guidance and resource in that for dealing with it in our situation, because, it's not just religion. There are different ways of being American. There are different ways of being a capitalist. You know what I'm saying? There's a more and less loving version of everything. And if we believe that the Spirit is the presence of God in this world that evokes love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control, if that's what we believe. Then we look for those fruits and say, Oh, it's not that this person has that religious bumper sticker on their car or that they're wearing that religious label. It's Oh, this person is showing fruit that comes from the Holy Spirit. I don't think that's being less Christian to believe that I can just think deeply Christian to believe that.

Seth 38:07

So when you wrote this book, it came out in 2016, which is right when President Trump was doing whatever he is still doing. And so, I feel as though I was fine calling myself an evangelical prior to his presidency. I don't know that I'm fine with calling myself that now. Because of huge figures like, you know, Jerry Falwell, Jr, or Paige Patterson, or just people that, that speak or treat people in a way that I can not endorse in any way shape or form. And I'm also if I'm honest, really have to watch my tongue especially on Twitter. Because I find that my worst, sarcastic, self is 140 characters away.

So how do…I have some snark and I have to have to really rein it in sometimes. How do we exists in religion and politics as a “evangelical Christian” and by evangelical and someone trying to tell other people about Jesus, not whatever Jerry Jr’s doing, how do we exist in America and religion and politics today and tomorrow and honestly for the next four years, maybe eight?

Brian 39:21

Yeah. Yeah, there's a whole set of things to talk about there. But you know, I have the same struggle, I have the same struggle. I grew up evangelical in some ways, I feel it's rude for me to call myself an evangelical now because so many of them it just upsets them so much, and they want to say that I got angelical or whatever. I don't like being rude and, and so on.

It is true that I am from an evangelical background and that will be true until the day I die. It is also true that I have not rejected the greatest treasures that I received in my heritage. But it is also true that I have changed and evangelicalism has changed. And I, like you, am appalled, and disgusted. I'm sickened by what goes on under the name of evangelical, especially in this Trumpism that we're witnessing, and the racist, anti environmental, anti poor, anti muslim, anti gay rhetoric that goes along with it. And now what I've come to see is, oh, this is a really common pattern in human behavior and human politics where politicians, in a democracy it happens one way in ancient monarchy should happen another way. But where powerful people create alliances by making promises to people. And those people are so enamored by the promises that they're willing to swallow whatever else is sold to them and, and I think that's what's happened with evangelical leaders.

They received promises, and they're willing…Donald Trump could shoot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue. And they would say he had a good reason to do it, you know, they would support him. So, we have every reason to be appalled by that.

So here's what I recommend. For what it's worth Seth, I just recommend that we start by saying, I'm a human being and as a human being, I have all the problems that human beings have. And I'm a mess, but I'm trying to leverage my life to go in a better direction of being human. And I'm a human being, like all human beings, who is born in a tradition, my tradition was Evangelical Christianity; I could have rejected it. But instead, in the core of it, I found a treasure that I've been trying to be true to and faithful to and I still find life giving. Whether that's called evangelicalism, whether it's called Christianity, I don't really care how it's labeled, but I just have to be honest that I see a treasure there.

So I'm a human being who's trying to be honest. And I received a tradition that I'm frustrated with, in some ways, and other dimensions, find life giving. And I'm working that out. And, you know, you don't always have time to give that kind of explanation. But the interesting thing, whenever I do give that kind of an explanation, I have Jewish friends who say, oh, man, that's me, too. And Muslim friends say, yeah, that's me, too. And suddenly, we find this deeper connection. You know, that's to me what's, what's beautiful.

Seth 42:40

There. And I'm certain that you've seen it. I don't see how you couldn't have. It's been everywhere. Um, there was a pew research study a few years ago about millennials, and I am one barely, technically, I almost was whatever was before them, whatever that is. Basically, they're leaving the church and for reasons that if anyone's listening to this podcast from beginning I parroted in my very first episode about just you know, to face in this, and I don't necessarily want to give money to a building, I want to give money to love on people and all the normal reasons and I have to think you're familiar with it.

But my concern is this how do I as and I have a nine year old and a five year old that are constantly asking about God, asking about Jesus. And I think I know that we go to the, to the right church to handle that on Sunday, but I struggle as someone that is still in the middle of I'm going to borrow a phrase from one of the followers on Twitter and a listener. He had talked about, well, don't call it deconstruction, think of it more like art restoration where you're, you're, you're moving away things that are tarnishing the beauty of the foundation of the Gospel. And I really like that a lot. And so how do I, how do I sit with what I'm doing, and not break my children or raise them in a way that they're not able to see Jesus in the way that I am is it unavoidable to to quote unquote indoctrinate them? Is there a way to do it correctly?

Brian 44:09

Yeah, yeah, you're asking a really important question. It’s interesting, you might remember in the early part of the book, The Great Spiritual Migration I talked about, what if our churches became schools of love? And what would the curriculum of love be of this thing is all about love how would we do that?

And, of course, my hope is that five years from now, 10 years from now, 50 years from now, that there could be 10s of thousands of churches whose primary focus is helping people become the most loving version of themselves possible. So that they go their lives in love for neighbor self and of God and and so I, you know, I still have hope that that can happen. I also have agony when I think of it not happening because of it doesn't happen. It's not like there's a long line of other organizations that trying to teach others all but what we do in the meantime is really, really tricky. And so two things about this awakening experience.

I took a sabbatical—10 months after travel and speaking right after I wrote The Great Spiritual Migration—and during that sabbatical I got a spiritual director and a coach and therapist and I just wanted to do some work on my own story of my life. And I entered this period, I think, about six weeks, where I felt about as down as I’ve felt in my adult life. Like this huge pain and grief inside of me and part of it was that Donald Trump was bringing out the worst in America and I was just was greeted by this ugly ugly Americanism that was being sort of having the flames being fanned. But on a more personal level, I realized what it was grief that I had anything to do with Evangelical Christianity.

In other words, even though the church that I pastor was on the very fringes of evangelicalism, I realized I brought people into the orbit of evangelical Christianity and I, in some ways, rendered people more under the influence of some of these toxic religious personalities who think they're wonderful and think they're, you know, they're the real deal, but I think are dangerous. And then the deepest grief came and I realized I'd expose my children to that.

And then one step after that as I continue to uncover it. I remember one day when I realized I'm grieving what this religion did to me as a boy, like, I was a curious kid, and this religion made me feel guilty for being curious. You know?

So all that to say that I think the number of parents who feel like this one is huge and, and I was just on a call not long ago with a group of people who are saying, we got to figure out what to do about this. And I don't know if this term will mean anything to you, but they said, “we’ve got to create the post of evangelical Focus on the Family and provide resources to parents who don't want to do it, you know, the way they were taught”. So here's what I'd recommend. I'd recommend you just be honest, and you say to your kids, listen, kids, religion can be a beautiful thing. Religion can be a bad thing. And I hope you'll follow my example. I'm doing the best I can to set an example for you. Here's how I see it. And I hope that makes sense to you. And you can always ask questions, you can always disagree that here's how I see it. In other words, and you might even say here's the kind of family we're trying to build together and you're part of this family. And I hope you'll help the speech in and of our family.

So in other words, you don't have control for how the Christian religion presents itself. But you do have control of how you present yourself, and some influence on how your family does, and I start there and build from there. And I would try to build in them the ability to discern just as Jesus taught that it's, you know, a tree, not by its label, but by its fruit. And I teach people-I teach them where they see bad fruit not to hate that person, but to want to help set a positive example for that person.

Seth 48:40

No, that's good. That's hard, but that's good. And I will say we're trying that, but I find I can see when I answer my son's questions about Adam and Eve or creation, it's usually something that's big like that it's never a big theological concept. It's always the merging of what he sees and the mystical realities of what religion has to fill in. And he, I think he, I think he can see that, I don't know what to say. But that I could answer the question. He knows me well enough. And you can tell that there's a portion in the back of his brain. That's like, I know that you're not telling me something. I know you're not. I think you're right. Maybe I should just tell them. Here's why. I'm not telling you. I just because I'm not. I'm just not sure. I think as parents we are afraid to not be sure so though.

Brian 49:30

I think that's really true. And, you know, I think when our kids are young, especially, we can give them clarity even where we can't give them certainty. So clarity might be you know, son, I want you to know, there are many kinds of truth. But if your son says is the Genesis story true? You can say, I want you to know there are many kinds of truth. That you can say that with deep, you know, confidence and clarity. And your son might not get it. But what he just got is something clear and honest from his father. And, you know, for the next 20 years 30 more times, and over time, that's going to be one of the wise things about his life. And he might not be ready for the whole meaning at seven. But being given that piece of wisdom from his dad, all of the sudden will mean a lot to him when he's 14.

Seth 50:33

Yeah, yeah. Last question. I always like to ask a similar version of this question to everyone. So, knowing what you know, your experience, your wisdom, your history, your knowledge of church history, what is one thing that those that are listening, be they a layman or a pastor or who knows whatever? What is one thing that we can do to actually impact our community in our churches today that will be something that will become generative that will further itself just by measure being a good thing?

Brian 51:07

Yeah. Well, I know this is gonna sound trite, but my honest answer is focus on love. That's what this thing is all about-focus on love.

Seth 51:18

That’s your answer before the wedding, the Royal Wedding, because that's everybody's answer.

Brian 51:24

Yeah, that's right (laughter). Oh, hey, listen, I just gotta say, Thank God that while we have all these bozos, you know, getting Jesus and Trump in the same peanut butter sandwich. Thank God we have somebody like Bishop Michael Curry, who's really emphasizing that this thing is really about love; and thank God for Pope Francis, and thank God for people like you and this podcast and others who are are trying to set a more positive example. But yeah, that's what I would say. That's, that's what it all comes down to.

Seth 51:55

Small aside I told my wife and a few other friends is like, I feel like I'm now gonna have have to be Episcopalian—like I feel like I just joined Episcopalian because that was a fantastic sermon.

Brian 52:06

It was, it was, it was a great sermon.

Seth 52:09

Yeah. Well, Brian, thank you so much. Where would you point people to, obviously we've got your website BrianMcLaren.net?

You’ve got some great blogs there and a large archive of blogs, where else would you point people to? To engage in this rabbit hole of deconstruction, reconstruction, questioning in a healthy way? Where else would you send people to?

Brian 52:33

Well, the good news is there are so many, there are so many people like you who are opening space on these conversations through blogs and through blogs and through podcasts and so you know anybody who you recommend I’d recommend too.

If people are struggling with the Bible, my friend Peter Enns has an incredible podcast called the Bible for Normal he does a great job. If people are just interested in geeking out on theology, it was a whole lot bigger, you know, higher roof and, you know, bigger dimensions mmy friend Tripp fuller has Homebrewed Christianity Podcast I mean, the resource of that is incredible. And I work with an organization called Convergence. And I'm leading something called the Convergence Leadership Project, which is aimed at trying to help congregations that are on this journey together, keep moving forward in a good way. So lots of great resources out there that visit the few.

Seth 53:38

Fantastic for those listening, I'll link those in the show notes. So make sure you hit pause, go down and click on all the appropriate links. Brian, thank you so much for being on. Thank you for your time. And I generally look forward to maybe doing it again in the future.

Brian 53:52

I look forward to that as well.

Thanks so much.

Seth 53:58

No problem. Take care Brian.

Seth Outro 54:20

So this was recorded in the middle of the year 2018, right around the royal wedding, and you'll hear us reference that and I apologize for that dated reference. But I have the small problem of I did too many interviews at one time, and there just weren't enough weeks to release them on. So forgive me for the dated reference. I find it kind of funny, but I still feel like I should say something about that.

I cannot stress how big of a topic this is. Specifically, as I think about my son, and my daughter, my son recently accepted Jesus as his Savior. And that causes bigger questions, questions that I'm not prepared to answer. But I feel like I need to be. And that's only going to get bigger the older that he gets. And your families matter in the same way. And the kids in your vicinity matter in the same way, and your peers matter in the same way. So that's huge.

I would encourage you, if you haven't read The Great Spiritual Migration to get a copy of it. It's been out long enough that it's in many libraries, and if not, it's almost always on sale, somewhere at Amazon or other places like that. So get you a copy.

The music that you heard interwoven throughout today's conversation is from musician Louise Gregg. She's a worship leader, a songwriter, and she's based in Manchester in the UK. She also works as a music therapist where she uses her music to help people who are having a wide range of challenges. So I would encourage you to support the artists that that lend their music to this show. Go to LouiseGregg.com, support her in any way that you can. You can find her on Bandcamp and everywhere else.

As always, you'll hear the selections from today's show on the Can I Say This At Church podcast Spotify playlist.

We'll talk to you next week.

Blessings