Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Matthew 0:00

I'm just saying like the term Christian has become so I don't wanna say watered down but it's become so meaningless like we can be just as victimizing and call ourselves Christian. And we think that when we, we take the communion, the bread and the wine, that somehow like this does, this has just like a salvific thing for me. I think it's about instead of having an altar of sacrifice, where we continually put each other on, or a cross, we come together at its table, and we eat together. And when we do that, we do it even with Judas, like we don't victimize. Like we refuse to enter into that rivalry that others are doing to us. It's less about, for me, the term Christian, and more about what does that mean? It means to follow the way of Christ. It means to be forgiving, offensively forgiving.

Seth Intro 1:16

Hey everybody how you doing? Welcome back to the show. I'm Seth, you're listening to the Can I Say This At Church podcast and I'm excited about that we're going to do it together.

So I have a guest on the show that if you've been on Facebook or whatever, and many of the groups that at least I’m in, or the podcasts, whatever, you will know, Matthew Distefano’s voice and whatnot and it was a pleasure to have him on but before we get there recently, I think the show so we're at like 53 Patrons. So I would love to end June at 100 patrons and so if you get anything at all you find any benefit, any value, from the show, click the button. Head on over the website, click in the show notes. You can either do Patreon you can do Glow, but consider supporting the show.

Every week, a few more people join in and it's man, it's really exciting. I'm, I love that community. I love the people there. And I'm so thankful for those of you that find value in the show, and help continue to be a part of it. So click that button. Let's do it together.

Today, what you'll hear slightly different conversation. So Matthew wrote a book, a devotional, as he goes through the year and to be honest, it's not something that I thought that I'd really see from Matthew, but I have enjoyed reading it. I've continued to read it this conversation because I am as busy as the next person. We recorded this like January like New Year's or maybe the day after New Year's or somewhere in there.

And so it's been like two months since I had this conversation. And as I listened back and edited it, I really liked where he's going with it and I have continued to read it every day because I don't do alot of devotionals but I really enjoyed this one.

So here's what you can expect. So we're going to talk a bit about Matthew, about how he sees God. And we're gonna talk about the concept of scapegoating and briefly touch on mimetic theory and the role of a prophet.

I mean really we cover a lot of ground. And so thank you for listening and let's roll the tape with Matthew.

Seth 3:41

Matthew Distefano, welcome to the Can I Say This At Church podcast! How are you doing man?

Matthew 3:46

I'm doing well. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I'm excited.

Seth 3:50

Yeah. Are you really are you?

Matthew 3:53

No, I am. Yeah, this is as excited as I get like I'm pretty even keel like. You might not tell it in my face, but I I'm excited to talk with you.

Seth 4:01

I was accused of that the other day I, a friend of mine sent me a link to a Will Ferrell SNL. He gets like a monotone voice skit that I had never watched. And he's like, I swear, Seth, this is you. Because I just I usually am always the same tone. For the most part. I'm a louder tone or a lower tone. But I hardly ever break tone. And he's like, you're just ridiculous. But yes, I get that as well.

Matthew 4:25

That's okay. My best friend Mike who I do a podcast with. He's even like, he's like straight, just like that. Like it's pretty much baseline all the time. So it's all good news. I'm used to it. I'm that way myself. So yeah, it should be an exciting one folks!

Seth 4:44

Hold on to your seats, it’s gonna be a ringer!! But I find that you can get away with a lot more sarcasm and puns when you have a deadpan face because people don't know how to take it so they have to think about it. So and they have to pay attention, because it's not like they can read you. Well tell us about you; what makes you, you?

Matthew 5:05

Oh God, we're all, we're all so unique. We're all so much the same too. So that's an odd question. Like, of course I'm a product of my environment from my upbringing, my current cultural and religious or maybe more non religious context now these days. But yeah, I mean, what me specifically I, I mean for work, I do social work because I like helping people who are struggling. I think that's a challenge. I write books, do podcasts, I'm now a hip hop artists.

Seth 5:41

What?

Matthew 5:42

Yeah, I just played my first show as like a house party for New Years and went well, so Praise Jesus. I'm married, I got a daughter. Yeah, I mean, there's so many things I could say I didn't. You want me to go the mystical route I am. Divine, a divine incarnate being. I am the Christ as Jamal would say.

Seth 6:07

So I didn't know you did social work. What does that look like?

Matthew 6:12

Well, historically I did like eight years of group home. I worked in a juvenile hall first before that, and then I work in group homes now I'm running a Independent Living service program, or I'm co-running for folks with developmental disabilities like cerebral palsy, autism, brain trauma injuries, and just helping them cope with things and learn how to meander the world and get services and pay bills and cook and do all the things that a lot of people take for granted that others maybe struggle with little more. So we help.

Seth 6:52

So they're coming to you or you go to them or how does that work?

Matthew 6:57

Oh in California, we contract through a state agency, and then we l, I'm one of the guys, who runs assessments and sees if it's going to be a fit with our program. So the agency would get a referral from someone who's looking for services and then they third party contract to those who provide the services.

Seth 7:19

Hmm. I didn't even know that was the thing. I mean, it makes sense that it exists. I just never really thought about that…

Matthew 7:26

There's a lot of social work in California. There's a lot of those kind of things. I don't know how it is elsewhere. I've only lived out in California for one year my life so…

Seth 7:35

You just couldn't wait to get back?

Matthew 7:39

Well, that's a long and winding story. Yeah, my wife and I moved, we moved out to Rhode Island for a year and a half.

Seth 7:45

(Moves) the entire continent, and then came back a lot.

Matthew 7:51

Yeah, why I don't know. I like California. I don't like the prices. Everything's expensive as shit out here. But I do like it and this is where my family is.

Seth 7:59

Yeah. I live in California when I was growing up for a few years my dad went to Pacific Coast Baptist Bible College San Dimas maybe Asuza?

Matthew 8:09

Way down in Southern California, yeah, yeah.

Seth 8:13

And then yeah, my brother was born in in Las Cruces. I think is that a city that exists? I was like, six, five.

Matthew 8:19

Yeah, I think so. I think that's Southern California, too. I mean, I mean, it's it look at the state. It's huge. I'm eight hours from LA. And, yeah, when this comes out, I'll have already flown down and I'm flying down tomorrow. So I mean, it's a two hour drive. Luckily, I get to fly. But it's a big state. There's so many towns that never heard of.

Seth 8:36

Yeah. Well, I just remember going to Disneyland all the time.

Matthew 8:41

Yeah. Totally.

Seth 8:43

Yeah. So because you get to go. Not why I brought you on. So you wrote a book called Devoted as and how do you say it because with the asterik how do you actually say it?

Matthew 8:51

Uh, Fuck, is the pronunciation.

Seth 8:54

(Laughter) I didn't know if you said it differently with the Asterik!

Matthew 8:59

I don’t know why we did that. We just did that. I don't know why we did that I forget why we put the asterisks on the cover page and the title. In the book, it doesn't have the asterisk.

Seth 9:09

It does not. Um, so I wanted to talk about some of the themes in that book. And so what I did, because it's, you touch on a lot of different things. And so for those that don't have the book in front of them, it's like a I what would you call it a daily and annual and every day for the year, I don't know what the word is, where you…

Matthew 9:29

I mean, yeah, it's kind of a quasi devotional. It doesn't have like the Bible verse, and then the longer sort of explanation or how it can help you or during that day, but it's more of like a, someone wants told me, I don't know who, that I can say a lot in a short amount of space. So I took that and I kind of tried to say, I hope profound things, sometimes crass, sometimes offensive, but to get people to think and then you get all these lines to jot down your notes. So, it's the most…I mean, I've written five books, this one has the most blank spaces. The other ones have words like I told you before.

Seth 10:08

Well, I mean, this one was it's a different intention, which was my first question. So when I do know that you've written other books, you read a book named Heretic, there's a book that has the word blood in it, I think…

Matthew 10:20

From the blood of Abel.

Seth 10:22

Yeah, that’s it. So why pivot to a devotional book? Like what made you go you know what I should write this! I read through it, because I read the whole thing, because it doesn't take long to read it when most of its blank space although now and going back through because, you know, yesterday was January 1, so why not? It starts a January one let's let's make this happen. So I write I read yesterday's in a read two days, I'll I'll read it for the year. Why not? I think it's harder to write that blurb with nothing really conjoining it to say February 10. You know, like, at least in a book, you got like, here's my bones. Here's what I want to write. Here's what I want to say. And here's how I'm going to do it. So why would you pivot to this?

Matthew 11:01

I like irony I'd be like the last person to ever write a devotional. I've never read one

Seth 11:09

Well you’ve read this one. So I,

Matthew 11:11

So I…oh, yeah, I had to react, you have to read and reread, make sure you don't have typos. I'm sure there still are. But I just, I thought I had I had a lot of quotes that just were like, jotted down, and I thought, “oh, it'd be cool just to make like, a quote a day, and let people kick around the ideas that I'm putting in there”. I mean, it was nothing like profound or like some divine revelation or epiphany that I should do this. It just kind of popped in my head.

Like, you know, this won't take that long to do and maybe it'll be helpful for folks and it'll be fun to write and, and just compile sometimes you got, I've got like, all these journals in here that are like 10 of them, like all full of just stuff. Yeah, when you write a regular book, you got to put all those things together and there's got to be a story arc and you gotta have flow and all this, but this was more like, what am I gonna do with all this shit? Like, I don't want to lose it and sometimes it just you can't expand it to an article or an essay and it just kind of sits there. And so it's like, well, let's just have a bunch of things that just sit there that people can think about and if they don't like it. I took a few seconds to read and I can move on the next one.

Seth 12:21

I have a grandiose vision that I want to try to write a book one of these days. So I've started making notes in the note app on my phone just because I'm lazy and I don't usually have paper handy. I always got a pen, I don't usually have any paper, at least not something that I can't throw away. And as I scroll back through it every once in a while, I'm like, Oh, this was good. I don't even know what this says. I don't even know why I wrote this, this literally, and but I'm afraid to hit Delete because I don't write maybe one day it'll mean something. Again, it obviously meant something when I wrote it down. It means absolutely nothing at the moment.

So I want to jump around some of the thought processes, or some of the questions that I had, based on a few days throughout your book, and then we'll just go wherever it goes from there. Sure. You and I don't this is the only date that I didn't write a day. And so I'm gonna start with this question. You talk about breathing, but you also talk about Buddhism. And I feel like it's either September, October, it could be August. It's right there in those three months. I know it's before August 11. And after September 19.

So it's somewhere and you talk about Buddhism and breathing, and basically calming down but you use the word in the sentence of, you know, of the things that Buddhism has taught me, one of them is this, like breathing. And so I wanted to talk a bit about that, because I've never really heard you talk about Buddhism, like what is kind of your relationship to that practice?

Matthew 13:44

Well, other than just studying some of it for religious studies, interests a lot of Buddhist practitioners and I would call my relationship would be a very loose relationship. It's not a very tight one. But a lot of the practitioners, a lot of the Zen Buddhists, especially in the Mahayana tradition I think, and I'm sure in other traditions too, there is an emphasis on stillness and breathing, as simple as breathing in through the nose, holding your breath for a second and letting it out slowly. And how that helps you be present, and allow thoughts that might be in your head to just be there without being labeled. They're neither good or bad. They could be uncomfortable thoughts, or they could be comfortable thoughts, but they're not something you have to attach. You could just let that be there.

And I think maybe the universe is such that when those things happen, they're supposed to happen for some sort of reason. And it can help us I think, with, you know, accepting those thoughts that come in and just letting them be there and maybe we can learn something from that. I think we're too busy in the West, I think we're too focused on the past or the future, instead of actually being here now as I think it's Rob Bell’s book is called that Be Here Now. But Buddhism has helped me with that. I think you can get that from Christianity or other traditions. But for me, the way Buddhists have talked about it, I just, they've said it in such a way that helps.

Seth 15:22

One quick thing on Rob Bell. So you're the third interview that I've done today. Third person that has brought up Rob Bell, third different book, and I have yet to read any of those books. The only one I've ever read is Love Wins. And nobody really ever quotes that winner really talks about it. They talk about it, but not well from it. If that makes any sense. That's not it's a bad way. Yeah.

Matthew 15:42

Well, but most people don't. There's so many questions in there. Most people don't quote questions, right?

Seth 15:46

Yeah, I've got his what is the Bible book here? Which is another question which I have yet to crack the spine on. I've had it for two years. One of these days I got to it. I just whatever. I just haven't done it yet. Yeah. So You on January 6, talk about the book of Revelation. And I like what you say about it. Is it alright if I quote you on some of these? Yeah. So you say

without a doubt, the dumbest thing that church teaches is that the book of Revelation is a play by play of what is going to happen thousands of year in the future.

And so I agree, but I want to hear it from you. So what then is the book of Revelation? What am I supposed to do with it?

Matthew 16:27

Oh, that's a great chuck it out like the Eastern Orthodox do, no they don't chuck it out they just don't read from it. No, I'm kidding. I honestly, this is the weird thing is I grew up dispensationalists left behind end times, theology, rapture, all that all that BS. So most people would think, oh, Matt must not like the book of Revelation. He must have just checked that because it's terrifying. And for anyone who's lived in that sort of rapture mindset, a lot of our stories are the same, like pretty scared. Pretty scary things going to happen. Like we've all seen those crappy Christian video. Movies of what happens and don't not make age.

Seth 17:03

Don't do it. He was much better like Kirk Cameron's.

Matthew 17:06

I guess I couldn't make I tried to watch it. I thought it would be accidentally funny.

Seth 17:10

So it wasn't good. It wasn't good. I've watched about two thirds of it. Actually, Kurt Cameron’s was better. But I think this because I like him, you know, why not?

Matthew 17:18

Yeah. I remember why I watched the old one. Yeah, I watched maybe half of the new one. But anyway, my point is that I haven't checked it out because of that background. And I think it's important. I think it's an important book. I think first and foremost, it is written to the people of the time shocking, right? Like most everything in ancient texts, whether you date it before 70 ad or after I'm not really that concerned about it, because i think i think it's it's first and foremost historical But second, I think we can read it allegorical and say that. Yes. This is about Rome and the relationship of Empire. And the people and religion and how that all works, and the hell that is coming because of the way we treat each other and how we ruin our stuff. It's about that, but it's, it's about every time we do that every time we are Rome, this leads to that.

These black riders and all this imagery that we have is symbolic of our human systems and where they lead to. So if we're going to create an empire, it's going to lead to destruction and death and famine and war and poverty, and all the things that we see in our world, century in and century out, whether it's Rome or Greek before that, or Babylon, or Egypt, or Britain, or the US.

Now I'm going to get crucified because I'm not being a patriot. (laughter both) But this is the critique that the book has. It has a happy ending “her gates will never be shut”. There's a happy ending. But in we're in the midst of it, I think all the time, whenever we are Babylon, or Rome or the two cities diametrically opposed when we live, like Jesus, and of course that raises the question who is Jesus? We can live in the kingdom of God and we can have a peaceful existence or we can do what we've always done, which is have power over each other and we end in a lake of fire. Like literally right now, Syria, Iran, Iraq, the Middle East, Afghanistan, South America, like there are lakes of fire everywhere, and we keep burning each other and keep killing each other. And it never ends well.

Seth 19:48

I've said this in a different interview, and I'm sure I stole it from somebody. Maybe I stole it from you. Why not?

Matthew 19:57

Steal away!

Seth 19:58

Yeah. Well, I doubt that. I still just feel like trying to be funny. But no, yeah. So actually, I think it was Walter Bruggemann, but it doesn't matter. He basically said, you know, the Bible is always written to the oppressed, the poor, the weak, the marginalized, that are being oppressed by whatever the Empire happens to be, you know, Persia, Babylon doesn't really matter. And so if you live in the Empire, it's not written to you. Yeah, it's probably written about you. It's not written to you probably gonna need to settle down.

Matthew 20:31

And, and having a lot of prophetic tradition. You don't like what it's going to say? Yeah. Because the prophets don't critique the poor. You know what I mean?

Seth 20:41

You talk about the voice of the Prophet, I forget which day it is. It's not one of the ones I wrote down, but basically, that, you know, nobody likes the Prophet because nobody wants to hear anything that the prophets have to say, what do you think the role of a Prophet would be saying California or in Virginia or in Texas, so let's just pick I don't know, Wisconsin. Nobody's picked on Wisconsin…like, what should the role of a prophet be in the church today? It doesn't even have to be in America. Honestly, it doesn't matter. Like what what would the role of a prophet be?

Matthew 21:10

So not to not call yourself Prophet. Like, don't send me a Facebook request when your name is prophet x, y, z, whatever. Because that's, that's the first red flag.

Seth 21:20

You don't hit accept?

Matthew 21:23

Tpically not. I think to critique whatever your current context is, whatever your current leadership to critique those power structures that oppress others, the least of these maybe would be a simple or maybe an overly simple but you know what I mean, like the least of the people that people that are in prison, the people with disabilities, the blind, at you know, that's one listed that Jesus talks—about the LGBTQ community and to critique those who through their power and use of power in places of power and privilege oppress those who become the marginalized of our society. Whether it's state sponsored or whether it's church sponsored, often two sides of the same coin unfortunately.

Seth 22:39

So there's a part in here that you say

taking communion has little, if anything to do with being Christian,

which would be the first thing that people go, okay. I don't know what you're talking about here. Instead, you say

it's about rejecting our propensity toward creating victims.

I literally, hand wrote in question marks are like I don't…I’m not actually connecting with what you're saying there. So what do you mean, when you say that communion is rejecting our propensity towards creative victims? How is that? Are you using the word communion there in the same way that we would at church and it with as my body to take and eat?

Matthew 23:16

Yeah, I think well that's I think that's the symbolism of the story of communion we have. I come from a Girardian perspective, so I'm going to view it from an mimetic theory standpoint. So we have in our typical cultures, we have the creation of scapegoats by othering. And that's how we unify we, as a society if we can come together at the expense of another and we all agree on who that is. The plagues always get lifted, right?

So Oedipus, the Apollonian plague and Thebes gets lifted after Oedipus is expelled. We have all these stories. Pilot and Herod become friends after they were they were they weren't friends they become friends when they agree that Yeah, Jesus had to go.

I don't say that to say that if you're a Christian you can't take communion or nothing. No, no, I mean, I'm just saying like the term Christian has become so I don't I don't want to say watered down but it's become so meaningless. Like we can be just as victimizing and call ourselves Christian. And we think that when we take the communion, the bread and the wine, that somehow like this does, this has just like a salvific thing for me. Like but it's no, I think it's about instead of having an altar of sacrifice, where we continually put each other on, or a cross, we come together at its table, and we eat together.

And when we do that, we do it even with Judas, like we don't victimize. Like we refuse to enter into that rivalry that others are doing to us. It’s less about, for me the term Christian, and more about what does that mean? It means to follow the way of Christ. It means to be forgiving. Offensively forgiving. Like I'm not that way. I don't know. Who was it that said there's only one Christian and it was Jesus. Was it Kierkegaard, no it wasn’t Kierkegaard.

Seth 25:21

I don't know, but I like it.

Matthew 25:23

Yeah, no, it was…shit. I can't remember.

But anyway, I'm not that I rarely, like I still have the propensity to scapegoat others and gossip about others and build myself up at the expense of others, rather than being like, ridiculously forgiving and merciful and gracious. So that's that's all I mean by that, like when we when we follow Jesus, we don't create victims.

So hopefully actually the term Christian and the second part of that phrase, I said, that those are the same thing because I think that's more to me what Christianity means. I don't see it as some sort of like personal salvific thing that I now get to go to heaven when I die. I hardly think that's even what the New Testament is even talking about. I think it's about following a certain ethic. That's, that's more of my focus like it's an ethic rather than all these metaphysical claims.

Seth 26:20

I want to park it at mimetic theory, but I don't want to discuss it. So where would you send it because I really am not prepared to talk about mimetic theory. Um, but I feel like people listen to that will go, what, what the hell is my memetic theory? So right, what are just a handful of places that you would send people to to be like, yeah, that's not what we're talking about now, but it's something that you should dig into. Yeah, look up this look up this look up this just to get a quick Crash Course. If that makes any sense.

Matthew 26:47

Yeah, no, totally. Well, you should always read primary sources, right. So Rene Girard was a French anthropologist who developed a theory of behavior and culture and you said didn’t you want to get into it, but that's where Go. So you go to Rene Girard, you would read primary materials he's very difficult to read.

So I would start with I See Satan Fall Like Lightning. But honestly, like, if you just want an introduction I'd go to to Ravenfoundation.org. Because the way they, they have infographics, they have videos, they have blogs. It's a very easy to digest way of, you know, the way they put it is easily accessible for people. Yeah, that's right, I would send them in and, you know, always read primary sources because you want to get it from the horse's mouth.

Seth 27:33

Let me rephrase, I do want to discuss it, we just don't actually have the time to discuss it at least not this evening. Due to the time shift difference, we'll have to find a better time to begin to make that happen. So you talked about metaphysical like heaven and hell, and that possibly, that's not what the New Testament is talking about. Unless I'm misquoting you from a minute ago, but I feel like I'm not because you just said it.

Matthew 27:59

I don't think that's the primary focus by any means.

Seth 28:00

So then what is heaven? And what is hell? Like? How did those have any sway? Like what? You you actually talked about it at the beginning of the year somewhere in January, of you know, Heaven and Hell are experiences that are happening now. And I think that's close to what you said. It's probably it's marginally close. So what do you mean by that? Because for most people, Heaven is a place I'm going to, and Hell is a place I'm going to. And I don't actually agree with either of those. But I'm curious where you're coming out from that viewpoint.

Matthew 28:32

Yeah, well, I think Heaven and Hell or the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, you could use those kind of interchangeably. I just think they're present realities, and they’re ways of being in the world now. And I think it works on multiple different levels. I think it has to do with internal peace, external peace, societal peace. All those kind of things are part of the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven. And hell the same thing. We can go through psychological hell, we can go through war, we can go through poverty, we can face trauma and that can be a “hel”l of sorts. If you want to get real technical Gehenna is hell. Gehenna has a notorious history in Judaism of being a place where they get burned after they get slaughtered by other empires. And that's where they literally go they go to hell and their bodies are burn and smoke rises up forever and ever and the worm dies not and it turns that lake I forget the Dead Sea is that what it is? It turns that into literally like a lake of fire creates brimstone and sulfur and all this kind of stuff. That's hell.

Why is it hell? Because Empire and Empire there's a good reason all empires leads to hell. And because of our power structures, which include Empire like the powers and principalities. We have hell all the time. Stalin's gulags are hell, Nazi camps are hell, Japanese internment camps are hell, so I can continue to be unpatriotic, the Trail of Tears, which is kind of a, that's not the right kind of title for something like that. That was horrific. That's hell. There's really fundamentally no difference, I think between that and Gehenna. Gehenna was just specific to Jewish tradition. So, these are present realities we can live in as a society as a person in our inner relational, you know, in our relationships.

Seth 30:44

Yeah. I want to give you one quick critique, I think you're using patriotism wrong. I think you're confusing patriotism with nationalism. It’s okay to not be nationalistic. Yeah, actually, it's probably healthy, as I believe a patriot would actually go up. Yeah, you can't do this. This is actually not what this country stands for. There are other countries that do stand for that, just not this not this one.

Matthew 31:09

Yes, I say firmly ,with my tongue firmly planted in cheek. But thank you for pointing that out. Because you're absolutely right I think.

Seth 31:16

Well, I just want to make sure that we're all in this together.

Matthew 31:21

Nothing wrong with that.

Seth 31:22

Um, I have two questions about two things that you said recently, I think on Facebook, and I don't have screenshots of either, so I'm probably gonna get them wrong. One was a critique of liberal fundamentalism, I believe you had talked about of, you know, there's fundamentalist on the right hand side, which let's just call that Jim Jeffries or Jerry Falwell, Jr. or whatever. What do you mean, I think it was you this was talking about, you know, liberal fundamentalism is exactly the same problem. Like, can you kind of what is that like liberal fundamentalism?

Matthew 31:54

Well, I don't know if I said it's exactly the same problem, but I think they look exact. They're very my mimetic. It seems like the reflection of one another. And what I mean is that I'll give you an example. Like I don't remember the exact point of discussion that I was having with someone, but I didn't fall in line. I'm very liberal. I'm very socially liberal. I didn't quite agree with something someone said and they called me Alt Right. And so it acts the same way as when I critique conservative religious fundamentalism, and I get called an apostate or a heretic.

We're just going to use this pejorative to demonize the other person and write them off because they're not exactly on our team. So for the right, it would be you know, if it's theological, it might be I don't agree with penal substitution atonement theory. “Oh, you're a heretic then”. Or I don't I don't affirm eternal torment I'm an unabashed Universalist. Oh my god here. heretic you're in a pause or I say, I don't even really know if I'm a Christian half the time. “Oh, you're an apostate”. You're you're not you're you're a hellbound. He's in a wolf in sheep's clothing. You get some people on the left, who will have the same tactic. And I'm not saying that they do as bad as stuff is some of the people on the right like, some of the stuff the right does is very gross in the way they treat other people.

But it's the same sort of tactic when you call me Alt Right, like you must be so far left. And even if you are I don't know how I'm Alt Right, because I'm very socially liberal. It just makes no sense. It's a pejorative, it's an attack. It's an ad hominem or something. But it kind of has the same energy. It's just using these demonizing pejoratives to other the person so that everything they say is now discredited and absurd. And I could be just a little off from you, let's say and some people will still use that; or if you said something to years ago and the they’ll say see how terrible of a person you are you hate gay people. And it's like no, I actually despise that. I said that I'm grossed out that I believe that and I don't believe that anymore. And some people will still quote unquote cancel you because you said it on Twitter or something. Like well wait a minute…if you're going to be not conservative fundamentalist, why is there no grace because that's, that's something they do. There's no grace for you. You go to hell forever if you don't believe like, so you get kicked out of our church. It's the same energy on the other side.

And I've just noticed that because I've seen it. It's like, I said, something that I critiqued Hillary Clinton one time, and I got called by some sort of, like, I'm just, I'm anti-woman, and I'm like, just hammering home the patriarchy. And I just thought that was weird. It's like, yeah, on the one hand, I'm sure I have blind spots. We all do, right? I'm sure we engage in racist things and we benefit from a racist structure. So in that way, are we racist? That could be a discussion? We might be in that way.

And in one way, yeah, I'm a male, I probably do things that hammer home to patriarchy, and we all have blind spots, but just to use those pejoratives because I critique someone who happens to be a woman because I didn't like her war voting record, which is always check Yes, check yes, check Yes. The two have nothing to do with the you know what I mean? Like, that's not because I'm patriarchal. Like, I think most men who have been in charge have a horrible war record, and they're probably worse than women who have ever had run stuff.

Seth 35:40

I don't know if you're like me, I see those Facebook memories pop up from a decade ago or whatever, because I'm not that old. But I'm old enough to remember when you had to go to the right college to get on Facebook. Like it had to come to your university, or you didn't get in you. So I hope maybe I'm all in you. Doesn't matter.

Matthew 35:57

Why I have only been on Facebook like five years.

Seth 36:00

Yeah, well then yeah, back in the day, it was like you had to have a.edu or dot.whatever, email address and it had to come to your university. And it was like University to University rollout. And it was literally only universe like you had you couldn't get on if you were just some high school kid.

And then eventually, you know they were like “hey we could sell ads everybody's welcome!” But, uh, but yeah, I'll see things from, you know, when I was 18-19. And I'm like, man, I can't believe I ever believe that. And part of me is tempted to delete them, just to delete them. But I haven't yet because they were true at the time. They're not true anymore. I'm really happy that they're no longer that I don't find that true at all. I used to. And yeah, so there is one other thing that you said recently that I literally went “Hmm”. And I thought about it for a while. I think the word you said was I think I'm at a point now that I'm post-Christian and you actually said something similar just a minute ago. What do you mean when you say that like what does that even mean?

Matthew 37:00

Well, I'm to the point where I don't, I don't think about it ever. I don't think well, what am I? Like what label best describes me? Like Christian just becomes one of those labels where it's like, I had to ask myself, does it matter if I'm a Christian? Like, what is this, this really calling myself matter at all? I mean, if I call myself a Christian, would I be able to talk to more people who are Christians? Not the way I talk! Not my personality, and I'm not gonna be talking to those folks anyway. And that's fine that I don't need to talk to everyone.

We don't have to all talk, right? There's a 7 billion of us like, certainly, we don't have to talk. And I just I just met Well, of course, I was a Christian, I would self identify as a Christian and I wouldn't say I'm not, but sometimes I just feel like that's just labeling myself or using a label to define myself is just something I no longer think about. I don't think I need to. I don't think I need to do anything to be saved ultimately. In one way, sure, you have to think a certain way for healing to take place and if salvation is kind of synonymous with healing or close enough, well, yeah, of course, our thought patterns can be salvific the things we believe can be salvific in one way, but ultimately, I don't think I have to be like, I'm not going to ask the question Oh, did you give your heart to the Lord and make Jesus as your personal Savior and other I don't like I don't think God and God's gonna be up there. And I have to answer it right otherwise, you know, I get zapped.

No, it's just it's become less of something that even takes up space in my head. Or any thoughts during the day Hmm, I don't know i i don't i don't want to sound like kind of pretentious been like “Oh, I should all labels!” That one's just personally not helpful.

Seth 39:01

Yeah, no, I'm fine with that. I also don't give the title much thought. But it is the easiest when people so actually, I had someone asked me at my job the other day, you know, what would you call yourself religiously? And I struggled, I was like, “Well, I mean, I definitely, definitely love Jesus”. But I'm also not this and not this and not this, and not this, and not this. So whatever those aren't, I'm the opposite of those. And I just looked, I was like, I don't know what the right label is. Yes, I'm just going to want to talk about Jesus.

Cool. Last question. And it's a question I'm going to try to ask everyone. And then just so that it kind of makes sense. I plan to talk with many, many different people this year that aren't Christian at all. And so I definitely want to ask them the question, but I don't want to just ask them the question because that would be, that would be wrong. So when I say hey, Matthew, tell me about when you say the word God, here's what you're actually intending to say like when you say here is who God is…this is what I want to say.

Matthew 40:08

Oh, wow. Small question.

Seth 40:10

It's tiny.

Matthew 40:11

Right. Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting because I think when most people say God or when everyone says God, it's a theology I think, like the letters G o d are not God's name, the letters God or not God, they're the kind of pointers like that point in the direction. So where am I pointing? I can I be cliche and say, 1 John 4:8 a shirt say God is God is love. I think that's a good pointer. I like the idea of how David Bentley Hart translates satchitananda, as being consciousness and bliss. So God is pure being this. God has been as such not a being but being God is pure consciousness and God is experienced as bliss. I like that such it and under i think is the Hindu understanding of maybe what they wouldn't call it God necessarily. They might I don't remember.

We're all kind of gods were lower case g gods in the I think in all of the what is it some sort of spider web? I don't know we were way out.

Seth 41:26

We were way out of my wheelhouse there.

Matthew 41:28

Oh, yeah, yea Indra’s web, web, I believe. We're all we're all connected like a spider web sort of deal. So that that's kind of what I would say I I it resonates in my bones. I can say theological things about God, or what God isn't. I think this sort of negative theology which is important. We always in the West talk about we have that whole like Westminster we have 1000 descriptors of God and God is Omni-everything in the East, I think they think things through a little more differently it's negative. God is not these things because I think that can help whittle down like they just it's helpful that's a good way i think it's it's an alternate way of thinking and I like that it's apophatic vs cataphatic knowledge if you want to get

Seth 42:17

So yeah, yeah well It reminds me of those Maxim's you know God is at least this but also is not this or however you want to put the maxims together.

Matthew 42:26

So love being consciousness and bliss I would say maybe are the four four words that I think point toward God.

Seth 42:36

Yeah, I like it. I like it. So far, like 10 episodes and none of those have been released actually yet. yet. No one is yet to give the same answer which I was actually worried everyone was just gonna give the same answer but it's been. It's actually been one of my favorite questions lately. Point people in the right spot. Where do they go to get ahold of you? Listen to your stuff, read your stuff. Do the things and I know you've got a Patreon where you'll you give people all of your books effectively for a certain amount of money, which is probably a good deal. I haven't done the math, but it probably is. Maybe I'm wrong on that.

Matthew 43:11

Well, yeah, where would you point people to? I've got like a million things going. So yeah, my websites allsetfree.com. And actually, I'm excited because I just started blogging again. It is going to be behind a paywall. So for $1 a month, you have to sign in with Patreon and go in there and get this for me dollar month at minimum, but what I'm doing is I'm taking the revised common lectionary, and I'm going through I started in advent. I'm giving thoughts and reflections on every Gospel passage from that week's lectionary. So I'm doing year a gospel passages all the way through, and then I'll do your be when we get there. And I'm doing that at allsetfree.com, so each week will be my thoughts and reflections on that week's Gospel reading heretic happy is a podcast I co host and the websites heretichappyhour.com It's of course wherever you wherever you listen to this lovely show you I'm sure can listen to us. Unless you're no Are we on Spotify? Yeah, I think we might be on Spotify…

Seth 44:12

Yeah, I am on Spotify. I'm yeah, so wherever you listening, I think I'm on Spotify. I don't know. I it's everywhere right and then that's how the internet works. I don't know.

Matthew 44:22

That's that thing, this whole thing that Al Gore invented so thank God. Yeah, and of course Facebook and I do some Twitter and Instagram but mainly Facebook if you actually want to talk to me. Yeah, perfect. If your profile name starts with evangelist or prophet, don't do it. I might not accept your request.

Seth 44:42

Maybe who knows…

Matthew 44:43

Maybe…oh and I have the bonfire sessions, which is another podcast that I do too. So you can find that on same platforms.

Seth 44:52

Matthew. Thank you for coming on. I enjoyed it.

Matthew 44:55

Yeah, thanks for having me, man. Loved it.

Seth Outro 45:13

I said this on Twitter the other day and I mean it 100% both for this episode and for the ones prior and the ones to come. I know how much of a time commitment it is to each of the guests to come on to the show and I'm very thankful for that and so I want to go on record and just say thank you so much for that literally not possible to do this without their voices and and really could do a lot of things with their time and I'm thankful they share it.

Special thanks again to Salt of the Sound for their music for today's episode.

Please remember to tell your friends about the show rate and review the show on iTunes I think what's that 140 reviews or something like that, but let's let's continue to do that. And again, we do your support on Patreon.

I look forward to talking with you Next week, I hope that you're blessed everyone.

Welcome to march.