Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

Seth Price  0:07  

Hey there, this is the next to last episode of 2020. That's exciting. That's so exciting. Now, you probably heard something different last week in the episode with Scott Erickson. And if you go back in the archives, you'll probably hear something different as well. So I wanted to give a little bit of clarity there. My intention was that in 2021, I would begin to pilot maybe running a few ads on the show, because as the show continues to grow, it does get more expensive, and the patrons cover the bulk of that, but not all of it. So you're going to see a little divestiture there. And I appreciate you bearing with me while I figure it out. Because like everything with this show, it's all new to me, every single thing that I do, is something I've never done before. So here's what will happen, you're gonna have a few ads mixed into the show, on occasion, it may be will or maybe will not happen every show. If that's something that you don't want. If you're like, yeah, I'm not interested in that the patron supporters of the show will always have a 100% ad free version of the show, as well as an unedited version of the show and at different levels, possibly even the video version of the show. So thank you for bearing with me with that it's par for the course I think, for most podcasts and it took me a while to come to a decision to do that. But I would love your feedback on that and appreciate your your understanding there and, and working with me. Feel free to fast forward through the ads if you want to. Or don't maybe there's something nice, I have no idea. So there's that.

Oh, one last final announcements. So this week, and the next week are the last weeks to get any discounts out of the store for the podcast. Just use promo code FU2020 because FU2020 weeks away, and you'll get 15% off of everything in there. If you are a supporter on Patreon, you'll get a 20% discount, but you do have a different promo code. So don't forget about that. All right, that's all out of the way. Here we go.

Jennifer Trently is a friend of mine. She's someone that I have grown closer and closer to as this year has gone by. She's freaking brilliant. And I love her perspective that she often brings, as we talk about things theologically, not just in this episode, but text messages. And then just in everything like she's just fantastic woman, and I'm overjoyed to bring this conversation to you. So here we go with another installment of the Patreon conversations with Jennifer Trently.

Seth Price 2:37

Jennifer, how are you doing? Welcome to the show. I'm excited to put more than a Marco Polo face that I'm four weeks behind on I don't know how many weeks 20 videos is but it's …yeah, I'm horrible. But Welcome. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad to know you. And I'm glad you're here.

Jennifer Trently  2:53  

Well, thank you. I've been looking forward to this. And I hope I haven't like put too much pressure on you to get this done. I just kind of wanted to do it.

Seth Price  3:08  

(Seth laughs) No pressure at all. I mean, I can say no. So no pressure at all. But yeah, lots been happening since we first started. I mean, so I went to Texas and back and a bunch of other things. So, um, and a few people have reached out and you've been consistent in that. I do want to thank you for that. It's been a big help.

Jennifer Trently  3:26  

Well, you're welcome. I'm very big about because I've been through some things in my life enough to realize that, you know, everybody has their family, and they have their inner circle. But sometimes, it's really good to have some people that don't really know the inside scoop to just check in on you. And I kind of, I don't know I just have a sixth sense sometimes, with who the people are that kind of need that.

Seth Price  4:00  

Yeah, it was good. It was good. Very good.

Jennifer Trently  4:05  

Well you're welcome.

Seth Price  4:07  

Tell us a bit about you. So, the patron conversations are always the most difficult for me. Because there's just, you know, we just don't know a lot about each other. So tell me, tell us, tell all of everybody a bit about you.

Jennifer Trently  4:25  

Okay, well, currently I live in Jackson, Tennessee, with my husband and my two cats. And I'm a spiritual director, which I've been doing. I've been doing it since 2014. But really more seriously in the last year because I work from 2015 until May of last year I was working on a master's in Christian spirituality through Oblate School of Theology in San Antonio. So my basic approach to spiritual direction is an idea of surrounding soul care and helping people figure out how God works for them. And I mean, most of the people that come to me are people who are kind of in some kind of “something's happened in their life”, or they're in some kind of position where they're by themselves or whatever. And, you know, they just think they're, well, they're like, a lot of people that listen to this podcast, they think they're crazy.

You know, they think they're crazy, because their approach to God doesn't fit anymore. And you know, so most people, I meet with them once a month for an hour, and the relationship can continue as long as they want. And generally, it's a form of deep listening. The idea is that the Holy Spirit is always present. And I'm there as a companion and a person to ask clarifying questions, not to give advice. So, A, I'm not trained as a therapist, but also I'm not a therapist in that I'm not there to give you specific solutions, or to guide you through particular method. I mean, a lot of people are in both therapy and or they have a therapist, and then they also come the spiritual direction.

And it's also not not pastoral counseling or discipleship, because it's not generally focused on dogma or theological questions, or, you know, my directly guiding you. I mean I’ve had people, you know, that come out of very traditional church backgrounds, to people who haven't been to church to people who really, you know, soul is a word that they use. I did a little bit of work with a gentleman last year who, you know, his term was “the vortex”. And so I have a whole range of people who are drawn to my work. And it's, it's always intriguing to me, and you might understand this, but when I talk about being a spiritual director, or even about my Master's in Christian spirituality, it's it's church, people who get big eyes and tell me things like, that's nice for you. It's people outside of the church who are on the fringes who are curious. Yeah. And so mainly, a lot of what I do is help people figure out a way to communicate and have a relationship with God that fits them that's outside of the box. You know, you don't have to read the Bible for an hour. You don't have to read 10 verses of scripture. You don't have to pray for 20 minutes, you know, kind of throw out all the rules. Yeah.

Seth Price  8:22  

So a couple just clarifying questions. Did you finish your masters?

Jennifer Trently  8:26  

Yes, I did. I graduated in last May, in May of 2019.

Seth Price  8:32  

And then where is Jackson, Tennessee. So when I drive from Virginia home to Texas, like I start in like Knoxville, Bristol, and then go the long corners, the bad corners, because there's not a shorter way to get there, Tennessee. I don't know where Jackson is?

Jennifer Trently  8:49  

Okay, so if you are coming down I-81 Have you ever been to where the 81/40 split is?

Seth Price  9:03  

Yeah, that was the way I would go is 81/40/30/20 to get home.

Jennifer Trently  9:07  

Okay, so if you're coming across on 40 West, you know you hit Nashville then Jackson and then Memphis so basically you passed my exit. You could have come and stayed at the house Seth.

Seth Price  9:24  

I haven't made that drive and a long time, now I fly.

Jennifer Trently  9:28  

Yeah. I totally get it. It's a very long drive. Yeah.

Seth Price  9:35  

Yeah. I think the last time I did it, I drove from Midland all the way to Knoxville. Yeah, no, yeah. No Kingsport?

Jennifer Trently  9:47  

Yeah, Kingsport

Seth Price  9:48  

There is a big rest area there. I passed out there, it was about 18 hours. I just drove straight through and mostly pounded Dr. Pepper and Red Bull. And made it and then yeah, I think I was getting back from midterm or something like that is back in college and it's the last time I drove it for it. Though, I may have to make a trip back out. I have to pick some stuff up from Texas in the next year or so. And you can't put that on the plane. So got to go out there and yeah, thanks. That word vortex causes me pause. Although I'm sure it works great for that guy. Vortex to me is an inherently chaotic word. Like all I think of when I think of vortex is tornadoes. That's all I think of, though there are other ways to think about vortex. I don't know what word I would give it. But I'm glad that works for him. What is so you talked about soul care, and you use the word soul as well before I hit before I hit go. So what is the soul? And what do you mean, when you say soul care?

Jennifer Trently  10:47  

The part of you that connects with spirit. You know, it's not your intellect and it's not your heart, where your emotions link in, but it's that place where there's the divine inside of you, that place where we as human beings seek out a power greater than us or higher than us.

Seth Price  11:21  

Define the inverse of that. What’s the inverse of soul care? Like, how do you diagnose someone as needing soul care? Like what is happening in me? If like, in a conversation, you're like, well, here's what we need to do. What does that look like?

Jennifer Trently  11:35  

I'm not necessarily giving, giving advice, Seth. I mean, I'm trying to think of an example. So I've been working with someone who's an Episcopal Deacon, and this person also works another 40 hour a week job. And she has a role in the church where she serving and then she works this 40 hour a week job. And so she's trying to figure out well, how do I care for myself, so I can offer something when I do preach on Sundays, or when I do go out and visit people, or, you know, I'm part of the feeding ministry, or whatever.

So for some people, it's kind of helping them figure out where it fits in their life. And then other people have been doing I mean, I have another person who's been doing a lot of reading some mystics, some people like Matthew Fox, and some other people. And you know, this person is trying to find their own way of connecting with God. And so, you know, I use the term with most people, a way to care for your soul is to approach things contemplatively in a way that slows them down. In other words, if you're going on a contemplative walk, it's not for exercise, it's a time for you to notice and to pay attention and to listen.

Seth Price  13:34  

I like that. I'm stealing that sentence. I'm making it mine. I'm plagiarizing that, that if you're going on a contemplative walk…I like that. Yeah, yeah. How has your faith shifted in the past decades, like the way that you view God now versus kind of the the God that you were raised with? If you were raised with a God at all?

Jennifer Trently  13:56  

Yeah. Well, I'll preface this by saying, Seth, that for most of my life, my issues have never been with God they've been with the church. I was given a faith at a very young age. My mom taught me to pray Dear Jesus and gave me a very practical like, you know, Jesus is your friend and in learning Scripture. I remember memorizing this Psalm about God being my refuge and her using that in terms of my being scared of the dark at a young age. It was very practical, and for the most part, as far as the way I was raised, I did encounter, overall, a loving God. It was really as I got older and was trying to figure out where I fit in Christendom. Because at first I thought that the church that I had grown up in wasn't a place that I fit.

Because by the time I got to high school, and I remember this incident very clearly was, we were talking about different things that the youth group was going to do next year. And I mentioned something connected with the Bible and several the kids threw ice cubes at me. And so I was in this mainline denomination church that I learned about social justice and love and mission in terms of feeding people and outreach. And some of the people there did the Bible study. So I was drawn to kind of what some of what your listeners and what Glenn's listeners on the What If Project have grown up in and are trying to deconstruct from. I was drawn to that evangelical world because I thought, well, you know, these people do a whole lot more Bible study, and they don’t drink. My father was an abusive, alcoholic, and, you know, I see “this” quality and “that” quality.

But then I realized, wait a minute, somewhat naively, I didn't see some of the other stuff for a while like, they don't ordain women. I always grew up, all the churches up in, ordained women. I always saw women in ministry. And so that was a crazy idea. And I, you know, discovered the whole like, creationist thing, and I was like, well I don't take the Bible, literally. And I've ever seen the Bible and science at odds with each other.

So then I had to figure out where I, you know, kind of where I belonged. And I guess you could say, maybe, my intuitive knowing and my life experience has always kind of put me in a place where I've sort of felt like I'm on the edge of the church.

Seth Price  17:42  

Yeah. How is that in the middle of Tennessee then?

Jennifer Trently  17:46  

Well, so currently, well, this is West Tennessee where I am, in Jackson.

Seth Price 17:57

Okay.

Jennifer Trently 17:58

So West Tennessee, Memphis, the part of Tennessee that I live in is like more the Mississippi Delta. Think cotton, think soybeans, think flat, and it's very conservative. And so my husband and I belong to Episcopal Church so the bulk of our community thinks we're too liberal, and we don't read the Bible.

Seth Price  18:23  

Because of the church you go to?

Jennifer Trently  18:26 

Oh, yeah, yeah!

Because of course, you know, as Episcopalians, not only do we ordain women, but you know, we ordain and marry gay people. So we surely have it all wrong! (sacrastically—Seth laughs) But part of part of for me why I am where I am, well, it's two reasons. One, is that I've had some life things happen where liturgy and the connection to the ancient Church has become very important to me. It's a place where I find grounding. And so the liturgy of the Episcopal Church combined with the fact that it's very inclusive, and provides a wide umbrella, is comfortable for me. Does that mean that everybody in my church in Jackson really gets or has had any interest in my Masters in Christian spirituality or have asked me a whole lot of questions about spiritual direction? No.

And that's also, to, why my degree is in Christian spirituality, Seth. So I actually for a while when I was in the Methodist Church, United Methodist Church, I thought that I was being called to be a pastor and I did some lay preaching for several years. In fact, some of those sermons are posted on my blog if you go back to 2013, 2014, 2015 sermons are there. But um, I guess two reasons: One, becoming a spiritual director because really it was a one on one relationship but also in terms of starting to connect, and having silence become more important to me and connecting with the mystics and connecting at a point in my life when I was in pain. Connecting with Thomas Merton and Henri Nouwen and other other people that have been mentors and have taught me a lot about that; was fact that there's so much richness in those ancient rhythms. And that we've thrown a lot of the, you know, baby out with the bathwater. You know, for so many things that we've missed. And so it was great. I loved it.

It was academically challenging, but it was also it was also pastoral and practical, and, you know, deeply, deeply spiritual and soul piercing at times. And so that's something that I feel like is also a unique sort of thing that I bring to my work in terms of, you know, a lot of some spiritual directors are connected with retreat centers, some people, you know, are more focused on the enneagram, or they're more focused on the exercises of St. Ignatius, or they bring some other kind of, for me with bringing the happiness masters of Christian spirituality, and knowledge of mystics and the connection, I feel like I have a lot of tools in my toolbox to talk to people about spiritual practices and making connections and finding ways to experience Spirit and that it's a whole lot bigger.

Seth Price  22:08  

Can you go further in that, so you say, some of the ancient or older mystics and into some of this, so like, for Ignatian Spirituality, we talk about, like the Examen, and the Enneagram is very popular at the moment. So I think that that's pretty self evident. So what would be some of the other practices that you would have people kind of, you know, hey, give this a go. This is different. Like does it connect to liturgy or is liturgy more of a church thing just by itself?

Jennifer Trently  22:36  

It's both. Well, first I'll say this, one piece of Ignatian Spirituality that some people forget about, besides Examen is also there's an imaginative part of putting yourself in the story, approach of praying and studying Scripture. And then, of course, there are the prayer practices, and the rhythms in the rule of Saint Benedict, he was St. Benedict was the one that develop the Divine Hours. And so you have praying the seven times a day. Which they still do in many Catholic monasteries around the world.

The Episcopalians went to four fixed hours of prayer, and then there are many other groups now in terms of how this has been revitalized, that have various approaches to morning and evening prayer. But in the traditional Divine Hours, the prayers, it's a praying of the Psalms really. You pray all 150 Psalms over the two weeks.

And the idea of Benedictine spirituality, the basic concept is, is that there’s this sacred rhythm of work and play and reading and rest and prayer. And then there's also an element of that there's no separation between the secular and the sacred. You know, think of, I don't know if you've ever heard of Brother Lawrence's The Practice of the Presence of God and he talks about, you know, experiencing the presence of God while washing dishes.

So this very contemplative approach to living. And also the idea in Benedictine Spirituality is the idea of always beginning again.

Seth Price  25:06  

Beginning again how? What do you mean? Like, beginning again tomorrow like the next hour like what ended that I'm…what ended?

Jennifer Trently  25:19  

Tomorrow or with God or whatever happened you can start over. There's always a clean slate.

Seth Price  25:29  

So one of the downsides of growing up in an evangelical only read the Bible thing is my lack of knowledge when it comes to any of the early, early, early church. Outside of you have to memorize the you know Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed and outside of that those are the only ones that we need because that's what's in our worship music.

Jennifer Trently  25:50  

Well that's where the liturgy comes from. And then also just the traditions of, you know, of companioning people and of accompanying people and of bringing in, you know, Hildegard who was a German Abbess in the monastery she founded. The interesting thing about her is when you start studying her work, she did all this work around science and around healing and around music and medicine. And she has this concept of connecting with the earth called Viriditas, and it has to do with the idea of greening. And so it's a connection, it's a connection away of experiencing the Earth. And so that's, that's the other thing is within these early mystics, there's a whole Christian intellectual tradition.

I mean, these people were some of the most well educated people, a lot of them. And of course you have the the desert mystics. Which I did my master's thesis on a fourth century monk who was in the desert Evagrius Ponticus, but the desert mothers and fathers and the desert tradition of desert spirituality, of course, which arose out of Christianity at about that time. Well, I mean, it's sort of some of what you talked about on your show Seth, you know, these people went to the desert because Constantine made Christianity legal, and all of a sudden it was getting watered down.

And so you have desert mothers and fathers out in the desert and eventually people started coming to them and seeking out the wisdom from them and what they were learning. And yet they would go to the desert, and most of them, you know, they lived on their own, and they lived very, very, very, very simple lives. And yet know they have a lot of practices which make a lot of sense, which, if we consider them, you know, in context of our current world. And this is also taken from one of my mentors, Christine Valters Paintner who operates the online Abbey; Abbey of the Hearts. She's a Benedictine ablate, so she's like the lay person associated with a Benedictine monastery.

Anyway, she talks a lot about the practice of stability. And of course, in a monastery sense, or when you join a convent, it's your commitment to stay there. Well, in our sense, you know, she talks about our practice of stability is do you know the area around you or are you always running away to somewhere else? You know, you go on vacation exploring over here, but are you really connected to where you live? And are you, again literally or figuratively, what are you running away from? There's many different dimensions.

And there's many people who have brought some of these, she's dead now but there's a Benedictine nun, Macrina Wiederkehr, and she wrote a book entitled Seven Sacred Pauses. And basically it takes this praying seven times a day and basically kind of gives you a way to pause seven times a day in like, using little five minute versions.

And in spiritual direction, sometimes I'll talk to people about that. Like, okay, well, how can you take a safe pause during the day? You know, even in the most strict business environment, go and take yourself to the restroom for 20 seconds and just slow that process down.

Seth Price  30:18  

Yeah, I do that often. I find I go to either the safe deposit vault or the safe deposit vault viewing area, because there are no cameras and it's always a secluded part of the bank. Usually quiet. That's my refuge. That's my refuge at the bank.

Jennifer Trently  30:35  

There you go. There you go.

Seth Price  30:37  

Yeah, give me a minute. We'll be right back. (ad break)

One of my favorite quotes that I have, I have no idea if she said it, because I just took it from the internet. But I've had it for years. I keep it written down. I have it work as well, is from Hildegard. And I don't know how to say the last part like Hildegard of Bingen.

But it's something to the effect of, I don't have it in front of me, of “there is the music of heaven in all things” or something like that. Which I have kind of written down as a maxim, mostly for when I get really angry at things that I want to control. And I'm like, no, it reminds me to kind of look for there's got to be something something is good here. I don't know what it is something, something is good here.

Jennifer Trently  31:47  

So there's a lot of varied connections. And there's a whole lot more things that you know, we we don't realize, I mean, for example, when I studied Evagrius, I mean specifically in his writings, he talks about looking at Scripture from both a literal and an allegorical sense. You know, and there's also this idea of his approach was that literally sort of this fluidity way to be that you would almost become one with it. And that was part of also to the idea of the monks that it was not so much a memorization as it was a meditating or absorption of Scripture that made a difference in how you live your life. Not a straight intellectual memorization. But if you go somewhere, like the Abbey of Gethsemani, where Thomas Merton was, and go and stay in their retreat house, you can go to all of the prayer services that monks do.

Seth Price  33:04  

At the beginning, and I don't know if I was hitting record yet, but I want you to work them in because I don't ever get asked questions. And I'm curious what your questions are. So you said you often ask people, two or three questions. What are those? Let's, let's do those. Put me on the spot.

Jennifer Trently  33:17  

Okay. Well, usually my main three questions are How is your soul doing? Where do you see God? And where are you resisting God?

Seth Price  33:29  

I'm gonna give these a go. I'm already upset about the last question, though. (laughs)

Jennifer Trently  33:35  

Most people are! (laughs)

Seth Price  33:38  

But it does bring to mind something from a while back. So how is my soul doing? I don't know, it varies day to day. Today's been good. The weekend was good. Today has been good. I think that answer could change every single day for me. Life feels easier these last few weeks than it has in a while. So that's good. I don't know if that's me, I think I just honestly stopped caring as much about things that I could no longer control.

Jennifer Trently  34:10  

Right. Yeah.

Seth Price  34:12  

Overall, these last few weeks have been much better than the bulk of the year. So yeah. I don't know a better way to say it than that.

Jennifer Trently  34:22  

So do you've been paying attention to God more or where do you see God then in the ways these things have been better or easier?

Seth Price  34:30  

So I don't know that I've been paying attention to God more. I think I have been less distracted. So I've gotten back into older practices where on my way into work I drive about an hour back and forth from work. I used to always not listen to anything. So I could just sit there and think, and I stopped doing that. And so that's something that I started back towards the end of September, and that's been really helpful. It also is really helpful that this is a beautiful time of year in the Blue Mountains. So it's almost impossible to not see just wonder and beauty and splendor. I mean, the other day, Jennifer, I live at the top of a jet stream, the top of the mountain that I live at, there's running lights on the road, because there's fog there two to three weeks out of every month, enough that they literally have installed running lights down the road so that people stay on the road.

Some days, though, that fog looks like it's literally moving like an ocean over the top of the mountain while the sun is coming up. And I'll just have to pull over and I'll pray and I'll be late to work and I'm the boss so it's fine. And you know, it's not fine! But you know what I mean‽ So but there's been more joy, more things to be happy for, if that makes sense. The rest of the year has been so tense. I don't know if that's soul, though. But that's the closest answer I can get.

And then where do I see God? So lately, I've seen God in watching my kids play, and laugh, and giggle just amongst the three of them. For some reason, the last few weeks, there's been a lot less arguments, and they literally are just playing. Like over the weekend, my two oldest decided to ride bikes together, which is the first time that I've never had to force them to do it. And so they just like just rapturous playfulness. And I just sat out there in the front yard, just watching them. It was blissful. It was beautiful and so loving. When my wife got home, it's just like, “What are y'all doing”? And then the kids drove by. And so we all just sat out there is good.

And then the Where are you resisting? God, it is all the election, like I feel drawn away from people. And I think that everybody is a little bit of God. And so I feel guilty, drawing away from people that I just can't have conversations with just because of the way that we view the way a country should be run. And I'm slightly ashamed of that; actually more than slightly ashamed of that.

Jennifer Trently  37:05  

And yet, there's an aspect to that Seth, that's also very nurturing and is also very much, you know, following Christ. I tell people all the time, you know, what did Jesus do after being with crowds of people? Well, he withdrew and prayed and he slept. And we don't know what all those times he was dealing with. We don't know, you know, there's a big difference between like, and love, we don't know that he liked everybody, right? And there's also you know, and when you were talking about your silence on the way to work, that's a practice that I encourage a lot of people to do a lot. That's the time of day where people can find silence to build some silence in your life. But also getting back to a comment that you made about experiencing joy and then being happy. So how do you see those two being different?

Seth Price  38:09  

Hmmm. So I think joy is watching things happen, that I'm not a part of, and finding happiness in that. So if joy is the fuel Happy is the gas mileage, if that makes any sense for a broken metaphor. So like joy fills up the tank of happiness, if that makes any sense? So, I think if I'm not finding joy I become belligerent and sarcastic in a horrible way. And I’m just not a good person to really be around. And you can ask my wife.

I have those days or weeks, or maybe months-everybody has those days. But I think I think there's a big difference, I think joy is the fuel that creates happiness.

Jennifer Trently  38:54  

So do you think you can have joy without being happy, then?

Seth Price  38:59  

I don't know how but I guess maybe somebody could I for me at this moment I'm not sure how.

Jennifer Trently  39:05  

I guess one of one of the things, you know, that I've become more convicted of purely over the last six years, and during my time that I've really delved into Alexander Shaia’s work is the idea of “both and”. It's both joy and suffering and that most of the time, I can't separate the two. It's both that you know, crossing the storming seas in Mark and abiding in the garden in John it's both of those.

And I've lived in those places a lot. And you're talking about the way that my faith has changed. I think, you know, when I came to Alexander's work and Heart and Mind actually, when I read and got to know him initially, Heart and Mind didn't exactly exist. But those four questions just, it just I had reached a very difficult place. And I had reached a place where I was really feeling like, you know, pretty dry and not a lot of things were making a lot of sense.

And, it really, like, put the gospel in a whole new perspective for me. And I use those questions a lot with people. I will just say, “Well, you know, my mentor, Alexander John Shaia, he looks at the Gospels and have you ever thought about, you know, looking at it this way? And I use them a lot in my own life and my own journey. It's very earthy, and very dirty. And, yet, it fits.

I wouldn't go back, I wouldn't have it any other way. I do joke with Alexander and I say, you know, if I had known what I know, now, I'm not sure that, you know, I would have gotten into all of this, because it's been a lot messier, a lot more painful than I wanted it to be.

Seth Price  41:35  

That is accurate. I find that, and Alexander and I've talked about this in the past, I intentionally choose one of the binaries because it's easier for me to deal with; it's just easier. And sometimes I'll be talking with him and he'll be like, “you’re missing it”.

And other times, you know, it's easier than others. I think it depends on what's happening in my life. But that awareness of it is the hardest part. Because it's so easy to fall back into this side or the other.

Jennifer Trently  42:11  

Yeah, yeah.

Seth Price  42:14  

Yeah, I think it's easy to see the change that you're facing. I think Mark is difficult. And I think staying in John is so easy. That's where I want to stay. It's just resting in the garden. I don't need to do anything. Other people do things. That's where I need the prodding. The other three, almost makes sense. But it's the prodding, the do something, the maturing in service that's the hard part.

Jennifer Trently  42:39  

But those, both and, you know, I think it was a couple of years ago, I heard Brian McLaren speak. And I think he was the first one I heard this term. And I use it a lot in spiritual direction. And I've written about it on my blog is, you know, I've lived in a space of holy uncertainty. And, you know, I talk about that with my directees. Become no comfortable with the idea of, you know, holy uncertainty. And the idea that both light and dark have limits, and that light can be just as dysfunctional and toxic is dark.

Seth Price  43:19  

Yeah, I've been playing with light and dark a lot lately. So I'm gonna read you something I just wrote. And I'll probably leave this in the episode, because I'm too lazy to edit it out. I only edit out sneezes or whatever. I try not to edit out much. Where is it at? So, I've been writing and I sent you different outlines along the way. Yeah, so there's a term called Chiaroscuro, I don't know if you're familiar with that or not? It's an artistic term. So like, if you're going to draw a portrait of something it's the effect that light and shadow has on all observable reality.

Now for art, it would be like if you're looking at me, like it would be this line right here (showing my profile). But I see that as a spiritual thing too, like, what do you see under a very bright light? And then also, what do you see under barely, a very absence of light? Like in all of the things in between? But in art, what they would teach us to do is (to) squint your eyes so that everything is blurry, and the line begins (to form) so you can see all the intricacies so that you can more easily adequately descript it. And that's the part of God that I've been trying to see lately, like, the blurred Lines. And that's where I stopped writing. But I don't know a better way to I still haven't figured out the words on how to voice it.

Jennifer Trently  44:45  

Yeah. Well, yeah. You know, that's a lot of what many mystics struggled with that whole idea of, how do I be authentic and how how do I be my true self versus false self? And how do I, you know, approach, mystical union and just this very deep holistic connection. You know, another thing that I think a lot about, Seth, is when I'm struggling with where I'm at or what's going on, I think about Teresa of Ávila in her writing she uses one of those phrases from Song of Solomon. And she the head nun, and she's telling some of the Sisters below her, “well, you know, God's put you where he has. He's put you in the wine cellar where he wants you.”

You know that's another thing that I love about the mystics and the ancient church is that they’re a whole lot more comfortable with that wisdom literature than we are, you know, a whole lot more mention of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon on a whole lot of levels.

Seth Price  46:30  

Yeah, I was watching a YouTube video of Rob Bell the other day, and I don't know which one it was. It's I don't even know it was there; someone sent it to me. And it was on Ecclesiastes, he's and he went all over the place talking about dogs. And you know, the way Rob does whatever Rob does, some days I'm in the mood to listen and other days, I'm not. But he kept having this one part. And since then, I've said it a lot enough times that my family is annoyed with it of the “What's it matter, we're all gonna die!” But the way he said he's like, we're all gonna, so let's just, let's just have another drink, or one more laugh or one more hug because we’re all gonna die. And oddly enough, that doesn't make me feel bad. Like, it actually makes me feel good, if that makes any sense at all. But yeah, that wisdom literature.

Jennifer Trently  47:12  

Oh, wait, it makes sense. Because, you know, in a lot of ways, it's all about priorities. And I was listening to a podcast the other day, the other podcasts that I've started listening to regularly now that I listened to them now that I'm walking. We move kind of outside of town, I have about a 20 minute drive into town. So I listen on the days I go into town to run errands, but is one called Encountering Silence. And they were doing a interview the other day was who was talking about the idea of he was talking about it from a science perspective that, you know, if you're truly a scientist, that when when you're approached with a question, that even if it's a millionth of one time that you're going to take a fresh look at it. And I got to thinking about, you know, in terms of, you know, our listening to God and are responding to other people and all of that, that every time we read something, and every time we share something, and every time we ask a question that it should always be that that freshness, it should be like that millionth and one time, we shouldn't still be saying the same thing that we said back at 750. Or whatever.

Seth Price  48:44  

Yeah, there's no growth in that. No growth at all. Do you ever look back at your old posts or blog posts or things that you've written and you're like, I don't even know that person anymore. I do that often.

Jennifer Trently  48:58  

Yeah, I mean, some some things, I can see glimpses of that, um, you know, like, I can definitely see that in my sermons. Some of the things that I've put on my blog that are there (that are) related to my own journey, I can see what I've learned. For example, there's a series of posts on my blog of my entire after a very difficult family situation in 2014. I took a two week driving trip by myself. And I called it a pilgrimage because I stopped at friends and family and in the middle of it was a retreat that I did a sacred rhythms of writing and yoga retreat that Christine Valters Paintner did in Cape May New Jersey. And I have I grew up in the northeast and my husband grew up in the northeast, and while I don't have family, his family is up there. And I have friends and things. So I stayed and visited with a lot of different people. But I start on day one and the different things that I reflected on through the 14 days.

And so if I go back and read that, that's more of a scene, seeing the growth that's like, wow, this is where this started, you know. I mean, I can definitely see a very definitive line between, you know, the Christine Valters Paintner has this book called The Way of the Monk, The Path of an Artist. And I did the course with her in 2012 online, and I can definitely see a trajectory of how that led into my being a spiritual director, and led into my master's program. And interestingly enough, the parallel with that was is that I started being in contact with Alexander about the same time. And so the two of them together have kind of brought about this growth place in this very different place that I never thought I would know, I never would be in.

Seth Price  51:31  

I have to read her stuff, I'm not even familiar with her name, I'll have to get into some of her stuff.

Jennifer Trently  51:33  

Well, I lead two groups right now around this book, this is her latest book. Interestingly enough, it kind of fits with Rob's book, everything is spiritual, because he mentioned so much about Earth and outside and stuff. But anyway, Earth, Our Original Monastery. But anyway, so so I can definitely see, you know, I had an opportunity to be with some older women in a spiritual formation group. And I remember when I first started in that group, I thought, you know some of these women are very quiet and, but when they speak the wisdom, and I really learned silence from them.

I really learned how to kind of slow (down) but I don't always, I mean, I talk louder when I get excited. And if you and I were sitting together, probably I might be hitting you with my gesticulations and you know, that's who I am on that trajectory of geography. Um, so I saw post that you and your wife are on it, date night, and the location was listed at Staunton, Virginia, so I’m guessing that’s not very far from you, like, how close are you to (there)?

Seth Price  52:58  

So they pronounce it “Stanton” here because they don't know how the English language works. They're wrong. (but) I lost that battle. That's what they say. So it's maybe 15 minutes west.

Jennifer Trently  53:11  

Okay, so, yeah, so here's the story with that when I first moved to Tennessee, and mom was in a place where she didn't have a lot of money. And I didn't have a lot of money. There was one Thanksgiving where that's where we met at the Cracker Barrel.

Seth Price  53:30  

Right off the interstate there.

Jennifer Trently  53:31  

We stayed overnight in a hotel together and we had Thanksgiving at the Cracker Barrel.

Seth Price  53:37  

That’s where the two interstates meet Interstate 64 and Interstate 81.

Jennifer Trently  53:41  

So I know all those, and I've made that trip many times, I know all those 81 exits very well.

Seth Price  53:54

Yeah, um, well, good. So last question. Yeah, just because my brain will falter if we go much, much further. So, but probably not one that you're unprepared for or maybe, but same question for everyone.

Jennifer Trently 55:09

Oh yes! I could even tell you the question!

Seth Price 55:13

(laughs) So what is the question then this will be fun? You ask the question and then answer it, or I can ask you.

Jennifer Trently  54:18  

Okay, yeah. If I was going to tell people about God, what would I say; or how would I describe God?

And so I've actually been contemplating this. And so what I came up with is that, I would say that….that God is the Creator, the Redeemer and the Sustainer who's always with you and who loves you unconditionally.

Seth Price  54:55  

I like it. I like it.

It is a deceptively hard question, isn't it?

Jennifer Trently  55:01  

Yeah. It really is.

Seth Price  55:02  

Jennifer, thank you so very much. I've enjoyed it. Thanks for your for your kind words as well and for your prayers over these last few months. Thanks for coming on. And thanks for them.

Jennifer Trently  55:12  

Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome. It's my pleasure.

Seth Price  55:38  

Next week is it, it's the end, right. It's the end of the year. So I'm trying something new next week. We'll see how it goes. I do want your feedback. I'm so thankful for all of you that are listening. Please remember to rate and review the show, jump in with the rest of the Patreon supporters if you want to. And there are many, many perks to doing that. And hopefully next year I'll figure out how to add more perks to that. And then finally, Specter Jones, thank you so much for your music. In this week's episode, you'll find links to their music in the show notes or at the playlist on Spotify and Apple Music for the show. I hope every single one of you as you're listening to this are staying safe for Christmas. See with your family, and it's full of joy and laughter I will talk with you next week.

Be blessed.