Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Scott Erickson 0:14

Jesus came into the world where there was no room for him but God made a space and God will make a space for your incarnation to.

Seth Price 0:35

So I'm wondering what all of this madness of this year is doing; what it's bringing, what it's birthing? Because in the middle of darkness when the world seems like it's furthest away from everything good and warm and holy that new things are incarnated and birthed. And that you and I are a part of that. I'm Seth this the Can I Say This At Church podcast. Thanks for downloading today. Thanks for being here! I think you're gonna like today's episode.

So I brought on Scott Erickson, who was on a while ago, honestly, I don't remember when I brought him on back in the day to talk about a book on prayer. And you'll hear us joke a little bit about that. But I really enjoyed this conversation. So we talked a bit about some really janky Christmas songs as it goes on the radio. But we talk a lot about art and wonder and beauty and how things that are being incarnated draw things out of us, and what that means for faith. So let's go.

Seth Price 2:08

Scott Erickson, The Curator of Awesomeness, which is the best email tagline that I think I've seen in a few weeks. Welcome to the show for the second time, though, for those that have been listening for the last few minutes; by the way, Scott, there's two versions of this show. There's the one where I was recording the last few minutes while we soundcheck because why not? And then there's the second; and so people will get that joke, and then there's this one, the edited version that everybody gets to hear and but that is what it is. But what is a curator of awesomeness? What does that mean?

Scott Erickson 2:40

Well, I'll go with a two fold answer. One, it's something I made up when I was recently relieved of duties at a design agency. And I found myself unemployed going, “what do I do next?” And when you're emailing people, you should have a tagline of what you do, and I just was like, I just picked it. So there's that but two: I think I actually intuit…ed, intuited?, intuitieted?..I'm an author…about (Seth laughs) the kind of work that I knew I wanted to do; which is, curator is a artistic term. I mean, we, you know, curator at a museum, but actually curate is an old word for a priest, a curate. It was a person like the priest who is in a community who was paying attention to the rhythms of life, who was there to create the ceremonies of birth and death and marriage and all of these things that were happening in community.

So there was a person involved in the community, who was paying attention and kind of creating rituals out of life. And then awesomeness. Well, you know, there's some definitely like, “bro, tubular, awesome”, that's there. But also, I think that awe and awesome and wonder, are things that I'm really in have been engaging to me. And so I want to curate wonder in people's lives with my work I want to, like be a curate of this kind of awesome wonder and that kind of thing. So I it's funny that I picked it and I've kind of been slowly living into it.

Seth Price 4:21

Yeah. Well, so, when I realized I hadn't sent you the zoom meeting'; that's my fault. So I was standing next to my wife. And when the email popped through, I was like, “Huh”, and she was like, what I'm like, what's a curator of awesomeness? And the look she gave me was like, “What are you talking about”? And she just walked away. I was like, “man”, like, it doesn't matter. Yeah, but Welcome back. So last time I talked to you, it's like three years ago, two years ago, I don't remember when you wrote the 40 Days of Prayer book.

Scott Erickson 4:49

Uh…it would be two years ago.

Seth Price 4:50

I don't know-time is a vortex of COVID and drywall. So question. I haven't asked this of anyone that's written a book recently, but um, literally thought about this today, what has it been like promoting a book during COVID? Because as I have stalked you on Instagram with 88,000 other people or whatever, mostly because I like your pictures. And by pictures I mean your art…

Scott Erickson 5:16

Yeah, my drawings.

Seth Price 5:17

Yeah, I don't actually know if you post any actual pictures, doesn't matter. (Scott laughs)

But I've seen you know, I'll watch you travel throughout. You’ve got like these miniature talks like you're doing like live events. That's a different thing. So what is it like, like publishing and promoting a book in an environment where you're encouraged to not be with people?

Scott Erickson 5:34

Yeah, it's disappointing and then you got to roll with it. So I actually I called all the people I could possibly know who were releasing books during COVID. So my friend Colby Martin released a book called The Shift.

Seth Price 5:50

I don't know Colby.

Scott Erickson 5:52

Science Mike McHargue, talked to him for a little bit. And then a new friend Kendra Adachi, she wrote a book called The Lazy Genius Way. And her book became a New York Times Bestseller in August when she released it. So she basically, like figured out how to be happy. It really matters, like the pre sales, and then you basically get like books released on Tuesday, and you get up to Friday. And if you sell a certain amount of books, which is 10,000 at least, you can get at least in the room to be considered. There's actually four things to be considered for a New York Times Bestseller. Which I found out from her. So she has my art up in her house. And I didn't really know her, but a friend was like, hey, this person I follow she has your art. So I reached out to her. And I was like, “can I just talk to you about releasing a book during COVID?” And she's like, “yeah”, and we talked for a couple hours on the phone, gave me her whole strategy. So I really followed what she said, in my own way, which was, she was like, there's a million ways to sell a book. So do what you do, and do it well.

And when she said, I focused on three things, which was my book launch team, podcasts, and a pre sale bonus. And I pretty much did the same thing. So I tried to figure out a pre sale bonus, which is I had this thing that I hadn't done in three years. I had it, it was these kind of hand, sounds so weird, hand motions, these like embodied movements to kind of deal with anxiety and fear. These like prayers, and I had charted these out, and I actually had used them in my life to deal with a very anxious time. And so I actually wrote like a little mini book, I re-illustrated everything. I spent 10 days on it. And I wrote a little book, and I made an ebook. And I released it all on Instagram. And I was like if you want to get this all you can only get it in this presale bonus order, you know, so it's like forced people to buy the book. And then podcasts and stuff.

Seth Price 7:49

Yeah, yeah. So you're now in New York Times bestseller? Is what you're telling me.

Scott Erickson 7:52

No, I did not do it. (laughs)

Seth Price 7:55

That's alright.

Scott Erickson 7:56

The last time I checked, I've sold like 12,000 books, which is really great. My publisher is really happy. But I did not do that in a week.

Seth Price 8:04

I don't even know for context, like I don't know what like. So I've had people tell me before they're like, well, your podcast is relatively successful; what are your numbers? And I'll give him the numbers and they are like, “Yeah, that's great”. And I'm like, is it though…I don't?

Scott Erickson 8:18

(Sarcastically laughs)

Is it? I don't know.

Seth Price 8:20

I don't know (because) there are hundreds of 1000s of podcasts. It's like Netflix like nobody tells me what the numbers are. I don’t…I'm pointing at the TV here. I don't really know.

Scott Erickson 8:27

That's really interesting about it gotta be so weird making stuff and then Netflix, or why I listened to an interview with Jason Sudeikis for his Ted Lasso show that's on Apple. And because it was on Brené Brown’s podcast, because she loves the show. And he is like, “we don't know, like Apple won't tell us the numbers. So we actually have no idea of the show successful or not. They just signed us to a second season…so I guess it's working…”. That's got to be the weirdest thing. Like to not know the rubric of success because there is one but you're not allowed to know it. You just have to be at the whim of this bigger organization.

Seth Price 9:05

Yeah, it was maddening at first for me because I was like, I don't even know if anybody's getting anything out of these and and then I realized that I just didn't care, Scott. Like I was like, well, I'm getting something out of these. Like, I'm learning a lot and yeah, to heck with the rest of it.

Scott Erickson 9:20

Yeah, yeah.

Seth Price 9:21

Which is probably the right attitude for everything.

Scott Erickson 9:23

I think personal transformation is the thing you got to do first and then invite others into it that's really where this book came from it. That is where art comes from.

Seth Price 9:31

So the name of the book is Honest Advent, but I'm gonna be honest, this isn't a Christmas book and advent is supposed to be Christmas like what is this? Because it's not like…when I got it I was like, Okay, cool. So this will be structured some of the 40 Days of Prayer, I’ll get a really strict liturgy. And that book had a strict liturgy, or at least I felt like it did. And that's probably Justin taking control of the writing, but I'm gonna blame him because he's not here. And even if he was, he'd be on a bus cutting in and out because he's I think you called him a #bigdeal. (We both laugh) But, I kind of expected it to be like every other advent book that I'd ever written, or…not that I've ever written, that I've ever read. And it wasn't that. So is this even technically an advent book or does it just release around Christmas? Like, what is this?

Scott 10:32

Yeah. My friend, Hillary McBride. She wrote a great endorsement. And I think she says, like, this isn't really an Advent book as much as a book about just human life. But it uses these very few passages that speak about the birth of Jesus, the incarnation, as the filter as the meditative anchor, to this larger idea of human vulnerability being the avenue for divine connection. What started this whole thing was, well, there's a lot of things that started this, but really being disenfranchised with the brand of Christmas. And wonder if it had any real relevance to the chaotic world I found myself in. Its incepted like four years ago, after the last election, which was divisive and long and exhausting. We had Syrian civil war we had Flint water crisis, multiple mass shootings, Zika virus, all of this stuff. And then like in November, I walked into a Target and like Christmas decorations were everywhere, you know, as it does every year just descends on Western society. And I just remember feeling like this feels really irrelevant to the world I find myself in and I'm a big fan of Christmas, like, I've listened to Christmas music most all day today. Like To be honest, like I…laughs

Seth Price 11:50

No. No. No.

Scott Erickson 11:52

I have it in my car! I have a playlist playing in my house! (Seth sighs) I put Christmas lights up on the house yesterday, we've had a tree up since November 1. So like we were into it, but like I want to be clear, like there is a brand of Christmas. There's a brand of Christmas propagated by Northern European and North America motifs of cold and snow and marketers just trying to sell stuff. But like Christmas is now this thing, that it's like anything that's not that is like well, that's not Christmas, just like you're saying, this isn't really a Christmas book, it's not a thing. And for me to like rekindle the wonder of the Christmas story, or the incarnation and the birth story, I needed to sidestep this whole brand, I needed to make something that looked nothing like it, the book has, I don't think anything looks like Christmas in there; maybe there's a couple stars or something like that. But at least the cover, there's no green or red, or tensil, or twinkles or anything like that. It's just Helvetica Neue black, and you know, two colors, and it's very plain. And that's on purpose. It's like, trying to make it really simple to just go…one of the Muses, for me is there's this Russian term, and it's ostranenie, it's like saying astronomy, but if you hated the letter M. Ostranenie was created by these Russian authors. And it's a creative tool, which is, ostranenie is the art of making that which is familiar or unfamiliar again. And this was used by authors and playwrights and all this stuff, but and that's really what good art is, is like seeing reality but going I never saw it from that side before.

And for me I wanted to unlearn the story that I've been told my whole life to try to see something different. And what really happened, for me was going, I'm not a woman, but I'm married to one and I've witnessed three pregnancies and births close hand and pregnancy is, you know, beautiful and sacred and miraculous. But it's also really painful and risky and a lot of bodily fluids. And there’s nothing sanitized or safe about it. And what hit me was just like, everybody has come into the world through human vulnerability, this like process of weakness. And it's kind of a wonderful and scary and frightening moment. And the divine, this invisible holy mystery, who decided to incarnate and become visible came through the same route we all did which was through human vulnerability.

So my question four years ago is like, are you still in our midst? Are you still coming into the world and where and how are you doing that? And the invitation for me was like look at human vulnerability as that same avenue for incarnation. So this book is less about what was Christmas like the first Christmas? It's not trying to decipher that. This book is about how is it still happening today? That's what this book is about. One of my teaching muses is the only reason we tell any of these old stories from the Bible is because they happened back then, yes, but they're still happening today. That's the only reason we tell these stories. If they weren't happening today, we'd be like, “that story doesn't apply to anything, that doesn't make sense”, you know? But it helps illuminate that it's already going on here. And that's why we keep telling it. So this was my journey of how is it still happening here?

Seth Price 15:28

Yeah, I'm gonna just openly express my displeasure that you've already used two words that I'm unfamiliar with curate, I think you said and then whatever the heck that Russian word is.

Scott Erickson 15: 40

Ostranenie.

Seth Price 15:42

Because again, I'm going to transcribe those and it's going to require a tremendous amount of effort. I'm not going to make you spell it out loud, because it would be embarrassing.

Scott Erickson 15:45

I can email it to you (laughs)

Seth Price 15:48

But I know that that word is not in the book, because I did not read that. And if it is, I missed it.

Scott 15:53

It is not! No that's a podcast appendix.

Seth Price 15:59

That's a 25 cent word, we're gonna need to keep it at nickel and dime sized words. I'm the type of speller that Microsoft Word or whatever the Mac equivalent is, you know how underlines and like green and red. I'm the one that when you right click it, it basically says I know every word in the English language and I have no idea what you're going for here. Like I know all of the consonants and all the vowels and you’ve really screwed up.

Scott Erickson 16:22

You just gotta scroll down and go “ignore spelling”.

Seth Price 16:25

Yeah, I said that's a word. Take it. Um, so you talked about familiarity twice in the last 15 minutes. And there's a part towards the beginning of your book. It's actually the only sentence that I underlined because I don't…I like familiarity. But I also have been dealing a lot internally with the concept of wonder. And mostly, because I've had to find things to ponder as I drive to work 40 minutes each day, and I drive over the Blue Ridge Mountains. And I watch the sun come up, and I watch people get in wrecks, because they forget that you need to have your windshield cleaned or you can't see when the sun comes up.

Scott Erickson 17:04

Oh man.

Seth Price 17:05

Yeah, every day, every single day. You say, like literally on one of the first pages;

Familiarity is a helpful tool but familiarity, kills wonder.

And so when you say wonder what are you saying? Because wonder and incarnation. Those are two words that we don't use. I don't think in the way that you're intending them in this book, like we say wonder like, “Oh, I wonder why”. But that's not what you're doing here. So what is wonder? And why is familiar to the inverse of that?

Scott Erickson 17:33

Yeah. So that whole conversation is actually from a live show that I have called Say Yes A Liturgy of Not Giving Up on Yourself, and it's dealing with the voice of giving up. What happens when a dream dies? And what is on the other side of that, and why is there this voice of giving up preventing you from moving forward? And so it's a whole performance about that, which is actually my second book with Zondervan. So I'm currently like transcribing that now. So even though I'm like promoting another book, I'm like, in the midst of writing another one. So it's like a nod to a longer conversation that I had and I tried to explain it as much as I could in an introduction, but I don't go into a lot of it.

But here's what I started to understand because wonder is actually a really helpful mental health tool for me. As a person who dances with depression fairly often and just overwhelming sadness and some hard days. Like, I've had to develop a pretty hefty toolset to just make it through life at times. So wonder is one of those. So here's how I describe wonder wonder, okay, our five senses are taking in way more information than we could ever possibly know, or imagined. And what they're doing mostly is creating a narrative that is, “Am I safe in this moment or not”? It's our one of our highest priorities for narratives is safety, like just am I safe and able to survive. All of that, we also have these other narratives that are going on that are like deeper about identity and who I am and what I'm capable of doing. And those those came from what we learned between like one and seven years old, how we learn to survive in the world. We are people who are embedded with narratives all day long, we just we have ongoing narratives, some are helpful, some are not, and maybe a lot of them we're aware of, and maybe some of them we aren't.

And so I would say a lot of like unhealthy places we find ourselves is because we have pretty negative narratives that are harming our lives. I was doing a lot of therapy. My therapist was like, write down the narratives, your self talk, all this stuff. And I started wondering, I was like, okay, I see I have these narratives, but are there ever moments I don't have narratives. And I realize there are and we call those moments of wonder. Wonder is when you sidestep the narrative you're in and you're just present. You don't really have a narrative about the situation. You're just there going look! I can't believe that. This is happening. This is amazing, right?

And I give examples of like going camping with my wife and having to wake up early in the morning, like at 4am to use the bathroom and we came out and we were in one of the least light polluted places in the United States in Idaho. And the stars were unbelievable. I'd like never seen…I've never seen that many stars in my life. It just took me out of everything. And I just was enraptured with what like the wonder the beauty of it, right or surfing. Like there's all of these things that are happening or in nature, these moments happen, where you're just like, out of the narratives, and you're just there, and you're just present.

And I went through like all these kind of moments of wonder. And what I figured out is, the common denominator for all of those was me. Because wonder is not an exterior destination wonder is this interior filter that can come up and I can view life through. And what I think is happening in wonder is that our narratives go away, like something new is happening, or we're unfamiliar things. What I think familiarity does, is familiarity is a great survival tool, it figures something out and it categorizes it and goes, this is what I should think and know about the situation, this person, this thing. So I can move on and focus on other things that are more scary.

So we just like categorize and put it away. So the act of like defamiliarizing yourself this ostranenie, like every day you could just what what I say is like a way to get into that wonder filter is just when you find yourself bored, just go well what don't I know about the situation right now. But and just look around and be like, What don't I know, I have a giant plant right over here. You can't see it. But like, what don't I know about how this plant works? Or how these computers work? Or who made this microphone? Like who is the guy who actually or woman who actually touched this microphone in the Blu shop, you know, and what's their story? And like, who made you know, like, all of a sudden, like you can if you just start asking, I guess wonder is akin to curiosity. It's just like, where did all of and then what about me? And what about you, and all of a sudden, like, because I just have these narratives happening all the time, that are helping me survive, but they can kind of desensitize me to the amazingness of life around (me).

And I think this is what like, maybe drugs do you in some way or practicing not attention but mindfulness has like Thich Nhat Hanh has progressed and other great faith leaders, you know, these kinds of things of like giving attention. Even like Mary Oliver in A Summer’s Day, like,

I don't know what prayer is, but I know how to pay attention.

You know, like, it's that kind of, it's that kind of thing. So that's when we talk about wonder in in Christmas, you know, like the wonder of the season all that stuff. I think what has happened is that I've become so familiar with the story, that I stopped paying attention to it. And that's where I was like, I want to de familiarize myself with this story in a really long side track to come back to Advent. But that's what that like little few sentences is. It's this larger conversation I've been having with life and myself.

Seth Price 23:19

Well, it's also helpful that you got all this stuff packed in there, because you're apparently writing another book. And so I'm sure all that's bubbling there. I did not know you were writing another book, I kind of figured when someone releases a book, they're like, alright, I'm done for a few years. I'm so sick and tired of this.

Scott Erickson 23:35

Oh man. I'm thinking about that after this one. I'm like, I should take a break. But I have like a third one in the cue.

Seth Price 23:40

Did you sign a multibook contract, is that what they did to you?

Scott Erickson 23:43

So when I we were negotiating with a couple publishers and I had three books on the table, but like Zondervan wanted two. And then this other one wanted a different one of the ones but another one. I had like three books and like one publisher wanted two and one publisher one another, two. And so I went with one. So I have this third one that's there that's about other things

Seth Price 24:10

So what's it about if you can?

Scott Erickson 24:13

No, I can. Somebody will probably take this idea and beat me to it and that's great.

Seth Price 24:15

Oh well then don’t say it.

Scott Erickson 25:17

No it’s ok. I’ve been working on prayers for depression. I've been working on like a not a cure, not a not a religious like you don't need to go to a therapist, just get Jesus and your depression will go away. But I've been working on like a spiritual companion to the season of depression you may find yourself in. So yeah, and I've been just making that stuff for myself. And then I shared some of it and people were like, we would like to see that as a book.

Seth Price 24:43

I think I said something similar to this the first time we talked, I've read this book twice. The first time I read it, because I've had it, thankfully long enough to do so twice. I just did each image for 25 days with no words period. Just thought about the image. And that was fun. And then I did it with no images only the words for 25 days. And I did not like that. I don't know why, though. I'm curious as an artist, (Scott laughs) like, what do you think art motivates or moves into people, especially when we're talking about faith and religion and deeper things that words just are unable to communicate? Okay, but

Scott Erickson 25:29

Okay, but can I come back to that?

Seth Price 25:31

Yeah, okay.

Scott Erickson 25:33

I want to ask you about that. Um, so what I think is helpful to like, what visual art and I guess, any kind of art form can do? Like, let's preface this way. And I think I say this in the introduction, which is, a great question to ask of art is what does this mean? That's fine. But a better question is, what is this pulling out of me? What is this excavating out of me? Because what art has the capacity to do is get in touch with your deepest, inner, conversation, which essentially, is what prayer is, this is actually an introduction to Prayer 40 Days of Practice, which is like, where Justin and I were like, we're not giving you a book of prayers. We're just giving you a book of excavation tools. Prayer is the ever present interior conversation you're having with God about the life you find yourself in. That's what prayer is.

And these words, and images, are helping excavate that out. So you can see actually what you're saying or what you're thinking. And that's what I would say, like visual art does. I might have an intention of what it means. But like when you view it, because you have no context for what it is, outside of my book and stuff like that, you're gonna bring your own life experience to help decipher what it means. So then all of a sudden, it's engaging your own personal story. And then you're a part of this image.

Whereas the words, you may feel less of an excavation tool. Because you might be like, this is Scott's voice, not my own. You know, like, sometimes, unless it's poetry, sometimes you can put yourself into it. But often, when you're reading a book, you're reading it as like, I'm listening to somebody else's voice. I'm not hearing my own voice. But images allow you to hear your own voice in it.

So I think that's where the strength in that is. And maybe that's when you say like, I went through the images. Great. I just went through the words…ehhhhh…lacking, because I think what you lost, I would say is maybe what you lost was your own voice in it. You just heard my voice. And I think that's what the images help with is bringing you into the story as well.

Seth Price 27:41

Yeah. Yeah. don't hear me. This. What crediting your voice at all, that’s not what I’m intending to say.

Scott Erickson 27:46

No, no, yeah, no, that's fine. Like, I think I’m you know, I'm on my way to be a great writer. But like, you know, this is my first solo act. And it's good, but like, it's no Hemingway, or…(laughter) it’s no James Joyce!

Seth Price 27:59

I mean, you're almost on the New York Times bestseller, though. So what um, what was your question? You said you wanted to come back to it when I said that?

Scott Erickson 28:10

Yeah, what was that experience for you? Why do you think why do you think though, without the images was less enjoyable.

Seth Price 28:41

Over the last few years, I dove into the enneagram and so I'm a five. And so when I read words, I can't stop recalling other things that I've read. And I'm always terrified that I have no original thoughts. Which is why like, I do a few things like I don't listen to any other religious podcasts at all, because I'm terrified that I'm going to I don't….know how to say that well without sounding humble or arrogant, or both at the same time. I you know what I mean, like, I don't . And I went to school for art and I just hated doing it as a career. And so art speaks to me too. And I play music and like sometimes I just play with nothing and so art speaks to me in a way that words don't but words hold my attention in a way that; like I devour words, almost like an addiction. And so for me when I view art, any art, like I intentionally have to slow way down. But like like the most powerful image in the entire text, and I don't remember which chapter it is without cheating; it's maybe like 15 or something. It's the woman where obviously she's bleeding but the blood is gold and she's holding a child like she just birthed a baby…

Scott Erickson 29:29

That’s my favorite too!

Seth Price 30:00

But for a lot of reasons. I'm just not going to put out on on a podcast, we can talk about it afterwards, I just it deals with my son and my wife. But the way that you use the color gold and all of your art is usually signifying, like almost like iconography in the way that like the Eastern Orthodox Church would do. And so I read them I for those I would drive to work and then I would look at the image, pray for a few minutes, and then go into work.

And there were some days I would walk in, like just a wreck, like I am not prepared to do anything. Other days I would walk in. Yeah, yeah, like the one with I think it's a goat or a sheep, and it's ripped apart and there's a skull in the center. And then there's like lungs or a heart just from memory. But the vapid stare on the animal. I think that's the only one where the end was like literally staring dead on like the eyes follow you. Unless like the lion is looking forward and the other ones doing something that it was so yeah, they always pulled something out different but none of them again, Christmas(y). But all of them let's argue they were they were maybe birthing something inside. So and then the words I like, like, I love your sarcasm, I love that I could drop on Meister Eckhart quote, which you would then think that you're not going to, and then you do. (Scott laughs) You said that's your favorite image as well. Why?

Scott Erickson 31:25

I think it's because so Parker Palmer, do you know him? Author and Quaker thinker and great, great man. He, in his book Undivided Life, which is actually the audio book is just a conversation with the person who runs the audio book company that did it. And she just like, asked him questions, and he just talks. It's really amazing. But he goes

at the center of my faith is a paradox, which is Jesus is God and man. And a paradox means two opposing truths that exists in the same space.

And he's like,

there's no way to answer those opposing truths, the only thing you can do is enter into the mystery of it, and let that transform you.

And when he said that, I knew I could find a home in Christianity still. And I think what is interesting to me about a birth, let's actually start with like a sunset first, What is the sunset?Like, you can go to a sunset, watch a sunset and go, this is just a star that we orbit, going below the horizon line of my planet, and the light is refracting off the atmosphere causing this color spectrum that's engaging and wonderful to look at. You could like decipher what's happening. But you can be also overwhelmed by the beauty of that color spectrum and go what is happening‽ Right! It's two things at the same time. It's like explainable and not explainable. And a birth is the same thing. Like we've had enough biology and you've witnessed births too where I was, like, I could write out medically or, you know, I don't know all the Latin words, words that doctors do. But I could write out like, what's going on, my wife is a doula for a while. So I could probably get a few extra like vocab words that I could write out what’s…

Seth Price 33:23

Don’t say them. I'll have to transcribe them. Don't say them.

Scott Erickson 33:25

Like mucus plug. (laughs)

Seth Price 33:28

Oh, that's fine. I thought you meant something in latin.

Scott Erickson 33:30

But I could like, describe what's happening. But also, there's this moment in a birth where you're like, it's almost like an inaudible like lightning bolt or something. Like, in that chapter, I write about my daughter coming out of my wife. And the doctor was on one leg, I was on the other and holding my wife's hand at the same time. And then like Elsa, named before Frozen, came out. And she just, like, popped out. And I looked at Holly and we both just burst into tears. Like we weren't in control of ourselves-it just was just this reaction. And it was like, I understood what was happening. But I also didn't at the same time. Like I understood that this thing that had been growing in my wife was emerging, but also there was like this inaudible symbol clang and trumpet announcement and proclamation of hidden angels saying a new life entered the world, and I got to witness it, and it wrecked me. And every birth has wrecked me.

Like, what's happening there? I know what's happening and I don't know what's happening at the same time. Yeah, and it's like a little moment of paradox that I've witnessed three times. I don't know if you can watch somebody else's birth and have the same meaning. I mean it is really poignant when it's your own children. You know what I'm saying? And so that moment, like you're saying, the original image is in red. I don't want to ruin it for you. But the publisher only said you can only have two colors black and gold.

Seth Price 35:06

Yeah, but you use those colors everywhere, sometimes you throw in a blue.

Scott Erickson 35:09

Sometimes throw in a blue, the next book will have blue instead of gold. So I couldn't use red, but I was like, oh, gold is a fine substitute. Because that blood is part of the sacredness of it. It is this like, it is this like, this just came out of me. But how wonderful you know, and I love the vulnerability of that moment, that image portrays the nakedness, the fragility (and) there's also like strength. Like, dammit, women's bodies. Holy cow! What can they do? Whoo!! Amazing!

Seth Price 35:47

Yeah. Um, do you think many Christians are prepared for a Christmas advent filled with a realistic expectation of the gore, and brutality, of birth and incarnation? (Scott chuckles) Like, and I use those words intentionally? Because, like birthing, incarnating, giving life. So you talked about you being there when your kid so I was like, when all three of my children were born? Like I don't think Christians, I think for the most part, think about the Jesus only on the cross, and they don't, or the Jesus, you know, flipping tables, or you prooftexting Jesus in a way, but I don't think that we actually give much thought or consideration to the vulnerability like you said, and the brutality, that really is birth, like any birth; like birthing of really anything, not just humans, but birthing anything, either metaphorically? Or do you think that the church or Christians, for the most part are even prepared to deal with that thought or that concept?

Scott Erickson 36:54

I mean, maybe. I think there's probably multiple opinions, but I think there are people really comfortable with the sanitization of Christianity. And then in order to belong you must keep with that way of talking about the whole thing.

Like I just posted on Instagram yesterday this guy follows Shaun King, who's controversial in some aspects, but he did it like this pretty honest post where he's just like, I used to be a pastor, and I don't understand prayer. I have been praying. (These) families call me and I'm praying for their people who are sick with COVID. And he's like, and everybody's died. And I just posted and I was like, “this is really honest”.

And then I had a person who's like, I don't like that you posted this. And we had a little discussion, I was just like, Look, if you if your faith can't take critique, it's not any real kind of faith. Because it's, only lasted because of a status quo of like, we have to keep saying this in order to keep this thing going.

I think there's an aspect to the religion of Christianity that has figured out how to talk about incarnation in a really safe way and wants to fight for that. But I would like to think there's a larger segment of really earnest people who want honesty in their lives and who have witnessed the complexities and hardship of life. And that's what happened. Like that was one of the first images I released on Instagram. And I had an overwhelming response years ago from this, mostly from women. Who said to me I haven't really ever seen anything that depicted the realness of what I felt like it being a mom or going through birth. And thank you for I feel very honored that you depicted something that feels really true to that experience. And that as a man who doesn't have a uterus, you know, like, hey, I'm not trying to take any woman's experience.

Like, I don't know what that's like, but I've bared witness as a partner. And I've seen what this looks like. And I'm trying to be as honest as I can with what I've witnessed. And so that felt very successful to me, because I was like, oh, good, because all I wanted to do was give honor to what I was seeing happening. That you were in this mix of like, pain and blood and fluids, and yet wonder and joy and bravery and courage and I mean, just like, the strength that's in moms is amazing, you know? So, yeah, that was it. So I'd like to think people are there might be some, you know, what I had one (laughs) [he] didn't contact me, but I had one pastor contact this company that's doing bulk orders. And he's like, I think I need to return these books because I don't think my church is ready for this.

Seth Price 39:54

For this (book)?

Scott Erickson 39:55

Yeah. And this woman, she's like, I just wanna let you know that this was sent in and I was like, you know what, I think that guy's just scared. And I think he isn't giving enough credit to the adults in his community who could be like, oh, yeah, this is fine. I think there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of leaders who…let me say this, there are some leaders that should not be leaders or should think through what being a leader means. They're at a spot where they're just trying to survive. And so they're like, don't rock anybody's boat. Just keep this going. So we can pay mortgages and salaries and stuff.

They don't really know where they're leading people. They just try to maintain. And I think the leaders who, and the churches and communities that are using this are like, what we see this is the way forward this year. I mean, I think I'll say it, I think this is if there's an every year for this advent book, it's this year. This is the book for this year.

I think hopefully next year, and I hope it's pretty evergreen for years to come. But for sure, this year, this is the like, that's the thing. Christmas has already come and we're just like, what? Like, again, we're like, Okay, cool. Do you know what we went through this last year? You're gonna talk to me about a Santa's stories and elves. And like, you know, just like, show me a Jesus, who is newly born but looks three months old and has had a bath and you know, like, what's this story?

Seth Price 41:22

That's the TV Jesus.

Scott Erickson 41:23

Like, the Incarnation stories, like a bunch of other babies died, like there was astronomical things. People traveled long miles, rejects got invited into becoming preachers. Like crazy! A woman who was asked to deliver a baby and she was misunderstood by her community and her entire life. There were so many scandalous things that happened in the story.

Seth Price 41:43

Yeah, I have a few more questions. One of them is really just tongue in cheek, because maybe it's the liquor, who knows, but I just want your opinion on the song Mary Did You Know (link will never be added here because reasons) because for some reason (Scott cracks up), and the reason that I'm asking is so I have my finger on the chapter on assumptions. Which is the icon from the the cover of the book, but just, you know, what are some thoughts on this song? Because I hate it. Because Mary does know, at least that's if you read the Bible that in any way, shape, or form. Where are you at with this song? Because this this will probably be the most controversial part of the episode.

Scott Erickson 42:23

Admittingly. I only know like the first half of the verse like “Mary did you know that your baby boy” and then from then I didn't know any other lyrics. Fun fact, though, when I was like 20 and I was like a youth leader at a small little church. During the Christmas show my uncle and I were asked to sing that song. And it's one of my most embarrassing moments in my life. I hated it the whole time. But I had to do it because it was my job. But yeah, so maybe I don't have a lot of content on that. But like there is…we didn't talk about how much we can like swear on the show.

Seth Price 43:03

Say whatever you want to say.

Scott Erickson 43:05

Well, I'll just say batshit. I don't feel like that's like too bad. But like, there is batshit crazy Christian material about Christmas. There is a kid's book about an angel, who God sends to Earth. Oh, no, it's the angel, this is an actual Christian children's book, the angel is becomes like God asked this angel to help with Jesus coming to earth. And so this angel becomes the star in the sky that leads the magic to Jesus and stuff. But then the star falls to the ground and becomes a stone and this angel is stuck as a stone for decades. Until they that stone is used to cover the tomb where Jesus was laid. And so when Jesus resurrects, he's like, “Oh, hey, Tom, the angel it's you!” And the angel gets to be a part of the resurrection and see the whole thing full circle.

That's a real kids book!!!

It's disturbing.

Seth Price 44:07

That's sounds like a bad, I'm the nerd out here, that sounds like a bad Doctor Who episode that's what this sounds like.

Scott Erickson 44:14

(Laughs) It really does. But people like yeah, I don't understand; there's all this kind of like, Oh, that's great. Like, who, okayed that? There's so much in like the Christian film, music, literature industry that people have okayed and I just want some cynical Christians and maybe just some atheists to be in a room and be like, “really?” Really, that's what you're going to release in the world‽ Do you want to give us fodder for like comedy, like the comedian Patton Oswald has this whole thing about this song Christmas Shoes.

Seth Price 44:52

I hate that song, another song I hate.

Scott Erickson 44:54

And he has a whole comedy bit about it and somebody animated it. It's on YouTube.

Seth Price 45:03

Is it good?

Scott Erickson 45:05

Oh, it's so funny.

Seth Price 45:06

I’ll watch that as soon as we’re done.

Scott Erickson 45:07

Yeah. Who at the label was like, send it! We love it! It's all of our theology wrapped up into a song! It’s just crazy

Seth Price 45:13

I'm sure you've done 97 podcasts since this book came out. When did this book come out actually?

Scott Erickson 45:20

October 20th

Seth Price 45:22

Son of a gun.

Scott Erickson 45:22

I know really early.

Seth Price 45:23

Yeah, that's when you know, even the publishers not sure if it's an Advent book, because they would have put it closer to Christmas.

Scott Erickson 45:30

It was really hard to promote, because I was like, this actually did happen. I was like I’m calling it like, people who love my stuff will buy it. But then everybody's obsessed with the election. And after the election, people will be like, “Oh, it's advent and we’ve got to get something. And that's what happened. And that’s exactly what happened.

Seth Price 45:50

So I don't even know where I was segue with that. But that's fine. So I want "Oh, yeah, here it is. So I'm sure you've answered this question. Because this was one of the few chapters where I'm like, yeah, these words could be an entirely different book. And so the image is The Inn. But it was relevant to me, because that is the story of Christmas and the holidays and lack of community that I think that we're all living in literally right now. So I'm sure that you've answered this question before, but I don't care. As people are reading that or looking at the iconography can you rip into that a bit of not having a place and specifically the church, maybe turning away people like, no, you're not allowed? Like, you're already excommunicated from work. You're working from home. Don't send your kids to school. Get the hell out of my church, because there's not room for you here. Like can you go into that just a bit?

Scott Erickson 46:49

Seth you're the only person who's asked me about this chapter.

Seth Price 46:52

Really?

Scott 46:53

Oh, I think Inglorious Pasterds did, but you’re only two.

Seth Price 46:59

Oh, I kind of assumed…maybe it's too controversial. Who cares?

Scott Erickson 47:03

Maybe it's farther in the book than a lot of people got. Alot of people are like “I read the first six”. You know, that's probably it.

Seth Price 47:10

That's disingenuous. Why would you talk to someone about what they wrote if you didn't read what they what wrote?

Scott Erickson 47:17

I mean, thank you for not partaking in the hypocrisy. So the chapter is called Room and it's about that verse that says, “there's no room for them in the inn”. And you know sometimes I just need to preface things. It's a little boring, but I try to make it quick, but go like, here's how this versus misunderstood. Usually, it's because our whole idea of the whole story has been influenced by pageantry, making 28 minute pageant shows with kids who are bad actors. But what we know is that there actually was no inn, there's no innkeeper and innkeepers never mentioned. But the word for inn actually means like a room in a relative's house that was used for guests. And also if you owned animals, you probably for them to not get stolen at night. You may be kept them in there.

So it was like not the nicest room. But that's where they stayed, that's where they got put. And so actually, Mary and Joseph were probably in Bethlehem for a long time. The idea is like, they're running to Bethlehem! Mary is about to pop! They gotta find a place to have this baby and they innkeepers like I don't got any rooms, but you can use my barn. Like that's how we think of it. When actually like Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem they probably there for a long time. And then the time came where she's had the baby and had the baby. But it is interesting that the author's like, but there was no room for them in the inn. It lets us know, there's some kind of tension. And, but and we'll never know what that is. We don't know. And again, going to this, like, how is this happening now? Which is we all exist in families.

And every family has some kind of built in like this is what it means to exist in this family. And if you don't act this way, or do it this way you get pushed. There might be no room for you anymore. You might not get invited to the family reunion again.

And I really wrote this for my LGBTQ friends. And also like I wrote it for them in mind, because I know a lot of them. One of them just told me he's like, I'm no longer invited to any family events ever. Which is unbelievable as a parent. But even my friends who've deconstructed or kind of evolved or become more expansive and then have gone back to their homes where nobody else did that work. Then they've been kind of, you know, relationally excommunicated from that.

And I wanted to offer a just to say like, hey Jesus came into the world where there was no room for him. But God made a space and God will make a space for your incarnation too. This is built upon the work that Justin and I did with prayer, which is, this is one of the major shifts that's happened to me, is this idea that prayer is not getting God's attention; prayer is becoming aware of God's work already in your life. And then I would say, like, spirituality is not getting God's attention. But spirituality is awakening to God's work already and God's voice and God's presence already in your life. Which is a very different model than I was given growing up because from missions and evangelism was like, none of these people know God, we've got to go tell them who God is!

But I've come to find that that isn't true. That actually, every single human I've met, they might not have a deep conversation. Like, here's the thing, here's how I would say, I discovered that I have a telephone like a doorway to talk to God at let's say, a telephone. I have a telephone, I can talk to God at any moment. Nobody gave me that telephone. It just has always been there. So if I have a telephone, then you have a telephone. I don't need to come and give you a telephone. I could maybe come and be like, hey, do you ever answer the call? Or what are your conversations? Like I can ask about your telephone. But I can't give you a telephone, that's something already given to you.

And I would say, in this chapter, this meditation was going God has already been involved in your incarnation; no matter how complicated that is, no matter how rejected that is, God is already involved in you're coming into the world. And God will make a way for that. It might not be in your family, which is really sad. But strangers along the way might celebrate you. You might be given gifts by international travelers, you know, like, I just kind of take that story and go, those things will happen, you'll find your community.

But one thing that we can relate to, and I talked about, like how Joseph has no lines. So I'm like, one thing that Jesus and Mary and no lines Joseph can give us empathy is that it's really complicated being in a family. And they understand that, and they can give us empathy to that we might find ourselves in a complicated family situation, too. And that's what that is. Because incarnation is interesting, because when I say incarnation, I mean, like, being seen. You know, be from the invisible to the visible, and like certain incarnations are confronting to the way things are. You know, like, I have friends here in Austin, who has a son who has Downs Syndrome, and their lives are, are incredibly difficult because of it. But in a way they would never choose otherwise.

Even though that's a really complicated thing to say. And I remember like, when we were going to having our last child, the doctor came in, and she was like, Oh, well, if we do this test, and we find out your kid has Down syndrome, then we'll give you the options for termination. And we were just like, what the fuck, you know‽ Like, what?

Seth Price 53:15

Yeah.

Scott Erickson 53:18

Like what? Do you want us to bring our friends who have Downs Syndrome children to tell you how stupid you are right now? Like, yes…what? Yes, vacations and life in school. And long term plans are made way more complicated. But maybe joy and meaning are coming through complication. You know what I'm saying? And it's that kind of thing was like, so you turned out not being the gender we thought you were. So you turned out not being the accomplishing son or daughter that we thought you'd be. You know, there's all these like, expectations in a family dynamic. So that was in my own small way it was like discussing that larger dynamic. Is that what came through or what you picket up on?

Seth Price 54:08

Yes, yes. And so I've shared bits and pieces of that chapter with some friends. Some of which are LGBTQ, and they have no place and, or they've been told, you know, you can't be that here. Like, if you're going to be here, that's not coming with you. Like you need to leave that wherever it is that you leave. You can't and the same thing at the church, like you're gonna have to hide this wonderful humanity that you have. Because that's not allowed here. We're not gonna do that here.

But you could make the same case for people's politics, people's view on God, there are a lot of things that get you booted to the hole dug out of rock to keep you out of the rain, basically, So just small aside, so when I married my wife, her aunt had Downs Syndrome. And she passed recently, though she lived a good, a good long while for Downs and she was over 50 I can't remember exactly the age at the moment. And I can remember, I didn't have any context for Down Syndrome before I'd met her. She was the most, she was amazing. She was amazing. And I can remember getting the same question with all three of our kids. And it was one of those things where like, my wife and I both unequivocal or however you say that word when the doctor asked that question, we're like, we only want the test. Like, this is the dumbest question that anyone has ever asked me. Like, why would…similar thing of what does it matter? No, I don't want the test, nor does the test yield any impact on anything, period. Life's hard anyway. I mean, all of my kids are able bodied, overall, well, and they all come with their own challenges. So I mean, you see the hair loss and it wasn't like that before kids. So last question, when you try to wrap words around what God is, what do you say?

Scott Erickson 56:12

I mean, I really like the Paul Tillich quote, which is,

God is not a being like you and I are beings he's the ground of being, the depth of being.

That's a way to give some understanding to a mystery that is as Rohr would say, not unknowable, but endlessly knowable. Um, so I don't know how to describe what God is. If I had a quote that came from me, this is what I would say. And it's in the book was just like, I don't understand how sovereignty works. I just know that God's really really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really detailed. And anytime I'm awakend to that intentionality, I'm filled with wonder.

So how would I describe God? Is really intentional. And that's what I'm always looking for.

Seth Price 57:11

Thank you for that. So, Scott, this is the part where we get we plugged the things in your professional at this now. You have to be by now. So yeah, send people to the places wherever and for lazy people that are just going to that a lot of I think a lot of people just hit stop right now. So they'll be in the show notes or whatever. Where do you want people to go?

Scott Erickson 57:31

I'm on social media, but mostly Instagram. And that's @Scottthepainter. All one word, three T's in a row. And my website is ScottEricksonart.com. Honest Advent, everything you need to know is at honestadvent.com. And you can find all the information.

Seth Price 57:52

Fantastic. Scott, thank you for your time tonight.

Scott Erickson 57:53

Yeah.

Seth Price 58:19

The years almost gone. Thank God, right.? Thank the Lord. However, I wanted to welcome Chris to the Patreon community, you sir are a blessing as are all of the people there with you. Last couple weeks before the end of the year here if there is anything that you want from the store, make sure you type in promo code FU2020 because that is going away when 2021 is here. Very special thanks as well to Peter Larsen for his music in today's episode, but you'll find links to him in the show notes as well as on the playlist for the show. I really hope that you're well that you are blessed.

We'll talk soon.