Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

Jon Steingard 0:08

I've really realized that Christianity has brought a ton of value to humanity as a whole. And I'm not one of those people that's, you know, crusading against religion and thinks that it's like a blight upon humanity. I can't help but notice that basically, no culture has ever arisen without some form of religion. So religion is serving a function. And before we just, arbitrarily, do away with it, it's probably a good idea to understand what that function is. And so at the very least, I realized saying this isn't enough to call myself a Christian. But at the very least, I look at Christianity, and I say, there's some real value in those ideas. And before we throw the bathwater out, we might want to know how much baby is in it.

Seth Price 1:24

Everybody, welcome to the game. Welcome to the show. I'm Seth, your host, this is the Can I Say This At Church podcast, I am so very, very excited that you're here. Thank you for taking the time to download the show. And I'm going to thank you in advance for taking the time to share the show and tell your friends about it.

Today got a conversation that I had with Jon Steingard, who is the ex lead singer of Hawk Nelson, that may or may not be a band that you're familiar with. But if you've ever turned on the radio, and listen to the you know, the music that K-Love or Spirit FM or Way FM play, you'll hear his voice. And the music is it's not my style, but that's okay. I think you'll hear Jon and I referenced that a little bit in the episode. However, he wrote a post a while back and it became a thing. And I thought it was fascinating just what happened and kind of his spiritual growth and spiritual journey there. So I asked him to come on. And I continue to be amazed at how many people just say, Sure, let's do it with so little prompting. And so it was very appreciative of Jon’s time. And his honesty, he told me there were no off limit questions, and I really am happy with this one. So there we go.

Seth Price 2:49

Jon, welcome to the show, man. Thanks for making the time. Thanks for saying yes. It's always amazing to me when I email someone out of the blue and they're like, “Sure, let's do it”. I always get a little more humbled each and every time cuz I literally have. Anyway, thanks for being here, man.

Jon Steingard 3:04

Oh, dude, thanks so much for having me man. I love these conversations. I think they're really helpful and constructive. And so whenever I see, you know, someone kind of reached out to me, I go like, hey, what good thing could happen in this conversation. And with the title of your podcast, you know, I just I love…you're touching on something really important to me. And it's the importance of asking questions and creating a space for questions. And so yeah, man, no brainer!

Seth Price 3:30

I'm a fan of my title. I wish I'd come up with it. A friend of mine came up with it about like, years ago, like, here's what I want to do. He's like, you can't say that at church and I was like you. You did it. I'm taking Yeah, it's mine. Yeah. And then no money. And I'm not going to Josh, I'm not going because I know you're gonna listen, and you're not getting any. So tell people about you. So I'll tell them a little bit just for a primer. So as you turn on K-Love, or Spirit FM or whatever, every once in a while they'll play songs by a band named Hawk Nelson, which is your voice? Well, probably not just your voice, but your voice. Yeah, that's a little bit about you. But that's easy to just Google. So tell me when like in a nutshell, real? Yeah. This is what makes Jon…Jon?

Jon Steingard 4:07

Yeah, I mean, my background, I grew up in a Christian home in Canada. My dad's a pastor. I started touring with Hawk Nelson when I was 20. I was the guitarist originally, I became the singer in 2012, when our old singer left, so there was a bit of a transition there. And then, you know, we did three albums with me as the singer. And then over the last couple of years, I've been taking steps back from music, and Christian music specifically, for a number of reasons. And some of them were just that I became a father and I wanted to spend more time with my kids and then some of it has a lot to do with some things that I was processing to do with faith and belief in God and asking questions about my sort of Christian upbringing and Christian beliefs that I didn't feel like I had the strength to ask before. And that has sort of led me to a place where earlier this year, I felt the need to sort of publicly be honest about where I was at with those questions. And that meant admitting that I wasn't sure I believed in God anymore.

And that set off a bit more of a, of a domino effect that I hadn't anticipated. When I did that, we had already sort of been tapering back our involvement with the band and our involvement with Christian music in general. And so I sort of didn't live under any illusions that, you know, I was the center of anyone's universe. And certainly, I still am not. But when I came out and said that I wasn't sure I believed in God anymore. That struck a chord with a lot more people than I anticipated. And I probably could have seen that coming if I had thought about it more.

And since then, I've been on this journey of continuing to ask questions about God and our ideas of God in different philosophies of being. Because one thing I've discovered is, if you build your entire life on Christian beliefs, and then you get rid of those Christian beliefs, what do you do? And, you know, how do you live your life? And what do you value and what do you aim at? And that's a really big problem. And I've been trying to answer those questions for the last six months.

Seth Price 6:19

Yeah, I briefly, 10 minutes ago at a red light, which is actually when I emailed you, as we confirmed this; I wasn't driving. My wife will listen, I wasn't driving when I emailed.

Jon Steingard 6:29

Sure.

Seth Price 6:30

I was at that one light by target that takes five days to turn green. She knows what I'm talking about. Yeah, I just briefly googled you and just looked at, like the top 20 things. And when you posted what you posted, I have to think that you thought yeah, this will get five people to comment, and then we'll go on about Wednesday, or Tuesday, or whatever the date was.

Jon Steingard 6:48

Yeah, I thought it would create waves locally within Christian music, and then within a week, it would just be, you know, blow over.

Seth Price 6:57

So what are your thoughts on why that hasn't happened? Like it can't just be you like, there's something else there.

Jon Steingard 7:05

So I think it's complex. I think there's a couple of things. I do think that there is I mean, of course, the the part of the sort of, quote unquote, Christian response to that, and this is an something I sort of take issue with fundamentally and in general, is that, oh, the media love stories of Christians losing their faith, because it affirms the narrative that they're trying to tell the world that it's better to not be a Christian. And when Christians say stuff like that, I actually do feel like they're sort of finding something that's slightly…I do think there's a nugget of truth to that. So I don't think it's a completely unfair assertion. But I think it's really incomplete to say it just like that.

So I think there is an element of the media (that) are interested in stories of people leaving faith. I think there's a nugget of truth there, even though not as much as I sort of think that sometimes Christians play it as-but then I also think there's this cultural reality within within Christianity that it's not real easy to publicly talk about your doubts and your questions. And this is why I think that the thrust of your podcast is so meaningful, that you're trying to create space for exactly that. And I know, for me, in addition to being a part of the culture that sort of already was not super welcoming of questions. I was also a public figure within Christian music, which means that my livelihood depended on me continuing to hold the beliefs that I held and not you know, contradicting them. And so for me, I was just like, I don't feel like I was even able to really ask these questions at all for quite a long time. And I think so many people out there, whether they're public figures or not, most of them not being, I think many people feel that frustration of like, “I have these questions, and I don't feel like I can ask them.” And so when someone steps out, and does, there's an interest there, because there's just not enough people doing it publicly.

Seth Price 9:18

Yeah, I would agree with that. I can't tell you how many people…I get this. It's annoying. Actually, I'm the worst person at email period at work at home with the kids school with COVID. Like, my wife has to babysit me to make sure that like, “Did you see the thing about the (school) pictures, and this, and the testing, and dropoff location?” And I'm like, “Yeah”, no, no, I didn't. I didn't.

Jon Steingard 9:38

Of course I did! Yeah, I did, honey. Yeah.

Seth Price 9:40

Yes. I saw that they emailed me. It did see that they did send an email. Yeah, I can't say how many emails I get from people that are like, what about this? Can I get resources for this? What about this, I said this and now I don't have a community anymore do you know anybody in the middle of wherever, wherever they live, that will accept me and give me a place to do community with people because I've been like, I can't go there anymore. Like I've been told don't come back because you're causing other people to have some problems or some questions. And we've got a business to run.

Jon Steingard 10:12

I think if you're told don't come back because you're causing problems, I think that you potentially should consider not going back, but not for the reasons that they're giving. You know, like, I actually think even if you are a believer, I think there are plenty of Christian communities that are open and welcoming to people that have questions. And I think to paint it as if all Christians are intolerant people who can't handle their faith being questioned is not accurate or fair at all.

Seth Price 10:42

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, it's definitely a lie. Yeah. Music question for you. So you did Hawk Nelson. What 20 years? I feel like I remember them…

Jon Steingard 10:50

I think it’s like 17, or something like that

Seth Price 10:52

Round up to date.

Jon Steingard 10:54

Yeah, I was the guitar player initially through all those pop punk days, really. And then in 2012, when I became the singer, we sort of transition into more of a pop oriented thing.

Seth Price 11:07

Is that because of you?

Jon Steingard 11:09

Yeah, I was really actually, it wasn't my idea to become the singer. I had always sort of excluded that as a possibility. Because I was not like a pop punk guy really. I felt like, in the role of guitar player I can play that role. I can, you know, like, I can be the guitar player in a pop punk band. But I didn't think that I had the persona or the sort of just sound vocally, to pull that off. And so, when I took over singing in the band, we basically gave ourselves permission to totally reinvent the sound. And that was the thing that enabled us to even consider doing it.

I mean, there was no version of the plan that was like, yeah, we're gonna keep being pop punk. After pop punk days, seem to have waned anyways with a singer who doesn't do it well, like, it's just like, yeah. And we played old songs. Like, initially, for a while, we played old songs, because we had to, I mean, we were writing new songs. And, and we very strategically chose songs from our old catalog that we felt like I could pull off. And the first couple of years of playing some old songs, some new, it wasn't super fun for me. So once we had two albums with me as the singer, once we had that second one, we didn't play any old songs after that.

Seth Price 12:47

You had enough back catalogue. So over those, let's just say 20 years, I want to revisionist history just a bit in your brain of shares as it relates to theology and God and religion and faith. So if the label, or your bandmates, assuming that they didn't, I don't know, because this is assumption from me, had given more space for each other to write lyrics (and) the concert venues had allow you to come in and sing songs of you wrestling with faith; because I have to think it wasn't just the last few years. That's kind of the outpouring of this show was a long time of really wrestling with God. And at the end, I had all this data and all this reading, and I'm like, well, why would I hoard this? Like, how do I try to give some of this back? For me, isn't just a “Oh, today, I'm doubting God”, it was a long build up. So if there had been space, or was there space to kind of write lyrics in such a way that you could wrestle with things, nightly, daily in between music sessions, if that makes sense? If there had been a space or if there wasn't a space, do you feel like you would be where you're at right now?

Jon Steingard 13:53

Well, I mean, I think to a large degree, market forces determine what happens in any industry, right. And Christian music is no different. I think there actually is a lot of space to make music that takes a lot of different forms, but the market will reward you or disincentivize you from exploring certain things. So like, one person that I find really interesting is John Mark McMillan love him. He's interesting to me, because he's a really deep thinker. He's a tortured soul for certain. And he writes some music that's incredibly transformative and incredibly artistic and not your standard Christian stuff. But he can do that because he wrote How He Loves.

Seth Price 14:41

He gets royalty checks, right?

Jon Steingard 14:44

So literally, that one song was so big that to a degree he's still living off of it. I mean, I don't know what his statements are. But like, when you have a song that goes that big within the church for a number of years you can live off it entirely. And then it'll start to taper off. I doubt he could live off that song entirely now, but regardless, it gave him enough wind in his sails, that he could do other other things. And so to a degree, it's like, until you have success on that level, you actually don't have a ton of freedom. And there's no gatekeeper that's making that so you know what I mean? Although you could make an argument for K-Love now.

Seth Price 15:30

That they're allowing people to voice dissent?

Jon Steingard 15:33

Oh, sorry that you could make an argument for K-Love now that they're so big that they actually are able to map the trajectory of Christian music as whole.

Seth Price 15:41

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Jon Steingard 15:43

Which I actually think they are that big. And, I actually think they're aware of it too. And, and even further, I think they're uncomfortable with that, which I commend them on, whenever I get a sense that they're uncomfortable with how influential they are. I think that's actually kind of great. Yeah, I'm not fully answering your question here. Let me try and take another stab at it here. I I think that there is. I think that as soon as you are putting yourself in front of people the way that you do in bands, all the rules are different.

It's the same way it's like, you know, does a pastor have the freedom to question? I mean, technically they do, but they're aware of the consequences, right? It's like, if a pastor gets up on Sunday, and says, I'm not sure if I believe in the resurrection, then there's a there's a pretty good chance that that pastor is not getting up the next Sunday. Right.

So I think it's sort of a fundamental, just factor that's built into culture. And it's not a it's not anything that any sort of gatekeepers or powerful people are creating. So in a sense, I think you do have the freedom to question and doubt it's just that you don't have the freedom to question and doubt absence of consequences: And yeah, so I realized that that's not a super straightforward answer. But I think that's how it is more or less.

Seth Price 17:13

So you're not the first artists that I spoke with. I spoke with Dave Zach, I've spoke with John Mark McMillan, actually, and then Derek Webb.

Jon Steingard 17:22

Oh, cool.

Seth Price 17:23

Maybe someone else like that. I'm not yet remembering at the moment. And they've all given similar answers. But yeah, I remember David was like, Yeah, I don't, I don't write songs for Caleb anymore. Like, I'm not concerned with Susan, or whatever the name of the person's AR. He's like, right? I just, I'm just not. And I'm just I just can't, I'm not and I can't and I won't and, you know, yeah. And everyone's given a similar answer. Or not similar, but around the same corner points that I'd like to pivot to God a bit. So I read your Instagram posts, and I've since then stalked you on on Instagram. I haven't followed you. Because I want to be that guy that randomly likes things (Jon laughs) but is not a follower. Because if you're like me, and maybe you're not because you've got a lot more followers. Like I notice when I'm like, Well, why is this person even on my page? Like, why are they here? But maybe that's me, the the banker brain of me of who are these people? How did they get here? Where did they come? Um, what are some of the things that you're currently wrestling with as it comes to your concept in view of God and faith, theology? All of the things?

Jon Steingard 18:25

Yeah, I mean, what's interesting is that when I wrote that post, I really thought—because I had been fighting against this sort of…I had felt this pressure to hold a certain set of views for my whole life as a pastor's kid growing up, there's pressure to hold those views. Because it reflected on my parents…

Seth Price 18:46

What are those views just In brief?

Jon Steingard 18:48

I'm sorry, just like Christian views in general, like traditional mainstream Christian views, about God, about Jesus, about salvation. And then, you know, within the context of Hawk Nelson and Christian music, you know, it's obviously expected that I hold those views too. An so when I came out and said that I don't believe in God anymore, I really did feel a sense of freedom to being, you know, get released from that pressure, which was really actually awesome. But then I was faced with the question of like, well, what now? Right? And, and since then, I've been more obsessed with learning about ideas about God than I than I ever have been. I've read Scripture more than I have in a long time. I've studied Scripture more than I have in a long time. I've studied philosophy and theology and psychology a lot more and tried to get a little bit closer to the bottom of this idea of like, when we're talking about God, what are we talking about, and where did those ideas come from? And one of the things that I've realized recently is (that) because I was raised in a Christian home, and raised with Christian values, and this is actually true for anyone who's raised in Western culture at all it's almost impossible for me to extricate myself from those Christian ideas and Christian values.

I mean, even the idea of human rights is predicated upon the idea that every human being has intrinsic value. And that idea, you know, was not prevalent before Christianity. It wasn’t if you study Roman and Greek culture, the idea that every human being had value that was not present in that culture.

Seth Price 20:40

Most people were property.

Jon Steingard 20:43

Yeah. And there was a sense of, you know, like, I mean we could get way deep into that but I've really realized that Christianity has brought a ton of value to humanity as a whole. And I'm not one of those people that's, you know, crusading against religion and thinks that it's like a blight upon humanity. I can't help but notice that basically, no culture has ever arisen without some form of religion. So religion is serving a function. And before we just arbitrarily do away with it, it's probably a good idea to understand what that function is. And so at the very least, I realized, saying this isn't enough to call myself a Christian. But at the very least, I look at Christianity and I say, there's some real value in those ideas. And before we throw the bathwater out we might want to know how much baby is in it!

Seth Price 21:42

I’ve never had anybody say that that way?

Jon Steingard 21:44

So that's sort of where I'm at right now. And then I've also been studying apologetics and I've been engaging with a number of apologetic thinkers who have been very, very kind to me. And some of them have, you know, become real, genuine friends in this process. And I've sort of come to the conclusion studying apologetics that the whole field of apologetics hasn't yet convinced me that Christianity is true. But it has convinced me that it's a reasonable position to hold.

And so those two things coupled, I mean, the fact that I think you can be an intelligent, reasonable person and reach the conclusion that Christianity might be true. And then simultaneously, you can look at what Christianity has given humanity as far as culture and ideas and you go like, well, if it's reasonable to believe it, and if it's beneficial to believe it, then that's kind of powerful. None of that indicates whether it's literally true or not. But I'm still compelled by those two ideas of the fact that it seems reasonable to me, and it also seems beneficial. And so I'm almost in this place where I'm like, maybe your best to just go with it because it might be better. You know, it might it might be so nothing in there is enough for people I think to be like, Oh, yeah, John's a Christian again. But I certainly, that's where my head has been recently.

Seth Price 23:23

Personally, Jon, I'm not overly concerned with labels like I think evangelical means something different. I think it means something political. I could care less about Democrat, Republican, even the word Christian to me doesn't have any power. Is your name in a way to categorize me in a I think we're a similar age. So I'll just in that Dewey Decimal System with the index card in the back of the library, that's all that I think, where I belong. And kids that are listening. That's a thing. Google it. And you'll see how libraries used to work back in the day before the internet. So I'm not concerned with labels, in so much as I sometimes struggle to call myself a Christian.

Jon Steingard 24:01

Really? Why is that?

Seth Price 24:03

This is not how podcast works. I ask you the questions (laughter).

So because that word means something. So in America, the word Christian means anti-abortion, probably Republican, I think that people have value only if they give money to the church. At least that's not what I say but that's actually how I act and what I do with the power that I have. When I quote Jesus to people, and when I try to do things in the way that I think Jesus would have them done, I get overtly called that I'm not Christian. I'm not religious. I've lost the faith. So the way that people use the word Christian doesn't mean anything to me because when they say it, and when I try to live it, those are two entirely-entirely separate things.

Jon Steingard 24:49

You know, what's interesting is if you just publicly say that you're not a Christian, and you don't believe in God, it's almost like you're resetting the spectrum of people's expectations. And then if you flirt with Christianity at all then you might hold a view that if you had never said, “I don't believe in God”, the people might be horrified about this view. But since you've already gone all the way over there, the fact that you hold this view now it's like, well, now people like view that is progress. Yeah, so it's like, it's like, you just need to go all the way to atheism, and then work your way back and people will cheer on every step. It's amazing. Except the atheists, they'll say that you're ignorant. But, you know.

Seth Price 25:34

You can’t make everybody happy.

Jon Steingard 25:36

No, and most of us are ignorant, and in at least a few ways, anyways.

Seth Price 25:40

More than a few. I only know a handful of things. Well, most of them are related to my family. And then the other is whatever book I happen to be reading, that's about it. The rest of the stuff I've mostly forgotten. What is your, I guess, has there been any flirtations with other faiths as your base? Like, I don't believe in a Christian God, because that's mostly what your post was about, like, has there been flirtations? What have you gone after? What have you learned from those?

Jon Steingard 26:03

Yeah, I went through a phase where I studied other world religions, at least on a surface level, and then I dove deeper in some of the ones that that interested me the most. So outside of Christianity, the sort of, it's called a religion. I'm not positive that it's a religion in the same sense as Christianity. But Buddhism is actually to me it's less of a religion and more like a philosophy of life. Or you could say, a philosophy of being. And there's a ton in Buddhism that I'm like, “Yes, yes, like this explains a lot. And this is very helpful”.

You know, on the surface, especially Buddhism is sort of agnostic about the idea of God. I mean, a lot of Buddhist thought, would actually not be completely incompatible with Christianity. Now, if you go deep enough, you get into the reincarnation stuff, and like, that, I can see there being a disconnect. But there's a lot about Buddhist thought that has been really helpful to me.

The idea of meditation I think, is really powerful. And Christians are essentially engaging in meditation when they pray. And so, you know, there's actually been a lot of science that meditation and prayer activate very similar parts of the brain, the only difference being that silent meditation doesn't activate linguistic centers, and prayer does, but you can also do non silent meditation, which sort of does the same thing. But I have this one sort of Buddhist meditation that I actually use a lot when I'm stressed out. And it's just these four phrases that you just repeat a few times, while you sort of take deep breaths, and you kind of calm yourself down. And it only takes like a minute. So I sometimes do it throughout the day. And the four phrases are

1. joyful, energetic body-and you just sort of say that to yourself a couple of times, either in your mind or, or, or verbally,

2. and then you say, loving, compassionate heart.

3. And then you say, reflective, alert mind.

4. And then you say, Lightness of Being.

And you just sort of go through those four phrases. And think about them and contemplate them. And there's something about when you set your intention to those ideas, it's like your mind and your body sort of align and they sort of, they accept that as an aim. And even a minute or two of contemplating those four phrases, I very often notice that I come out of it feeling a lot more peaceful. And one thing I found interesting, that I've only thought of recently, is that last one, “Lightness of Being”. You know, Lightness of Being that sort of encapsulates almost all the other three in a way. And being is one of the words that I've been trying out as a replacement for God as far as my own thinking, and going like, okay, like, the way that I used to think about God, you know, maybe there's something to considering the idea of being itself. And that term being used for like, that from which everything arises and that which sustains all things. And there's a guy named Paul Tillich who had this idea of called the “ground of being” which is sort of one way to conceptualize God.

And I find it interesting that the word being kind of dovetails between that ground of being idea and then the Buddhist idea of Lightness of Being. Yeah, so I went on a tangent there, but basically, yes, Buddhism is the one that I've probably found the most interesting. Taoism I actually, there's a lot about Taoism that I'm really curious about and interested in, I read Tao Te Ching and for anyone that doesn't know that's sort of not exactly a Taoist scripture, but it's sort of a, it's a good book to sort of sum up Taoist thought. And it's very, very old. And I understood maybe 10% of it. But what I did understand was pretty profound. So I think a couple of the Eastern religions have been the most helpful to me.

But I found a lot of benefit and even just intellectually learning about Islam, about Judaism, about Hinduism, about Jainism. Jainism is very strange. But interesting. So, yeah, there's a lot to learn out there. And what I've come to is that, even within Christian thought, there's this idea that all truth is God's truth. And so instead of being scared to contemplate other religions, I actually, often, would say, like, to any Christian, like, go and learn about Islam, go and learn about about Buddhism. Whatever is true will be true regardless of what books you avoid, or don't avoid. And even as a Christian, I think you can have confidence that if God is real and he is who He says He is, then he'll reveal himself in all kinds of places.

Seth Price 31:55

I spoke with a Sikh the other day. I’m trying to intentionally so I spoke with a Buddhist this year, a sick and I'm trying to find a Muslim to speak with that, that I feel like Well, let me ask questions in a way that may be maybe insulting because of my ignorance, because I know, you know, there's some people and then same thing in Christianity, there's dogmatic that if you ask the wrong question, like that's it-interview is done! Yeah, that guy's an idiot.

Jon Steingard 32:18

Sure, there actually are plenty of Muslims that are open to sort of having those conversations,

Seth Price 32:29

I'm going to get those names before we leave.

Not that I haven't intentionally saw it. I really want to do it locally. Like I want to talk in the same room. And that's hard in the environment that we're in. And in the scheduling for my kids and COVID. And my job. Oh, just it just hard. I hate always doing this over Zoom. Now, in this case, we're on the different side of the continent, not necessarily just the country. So this has to happen. But you know what I mean? But when I spoke with that gentleman, and by the time this releases, it will already have been out, like, at the end of that episode, I literally wrote down, I've got it written down right here on the desk of “we're not any different”. Like literally the night conversation. I was like, pretty sure I could go to his church, and except for not knowing the songs, I'd be entirely fine. And I would hope vice versa. But the way that I live is really not any different than the way that he lives in practice. Mm hmm. Which maybe I'm a bad Christian. Maybe he's a bad Sikh, maybe we're both just decent humans. Maybe we're not? I don't know. I don't actually know the answer to that question.

Jon Steingard 33:26

Well, I mean, the thing that, I think is that there are certain things about existence and humanity and reality that are sort of just objectively true. And it shouldn't be a surprise, then that any religion that survives to be, you know, meaningful to a large number of people is going to have elements of those same things, otherwise, it just wouldn't work. Yeah. And so it comes back to, like, religions only survive if they do something, if they provide motivation for something that's meaningful, if they provide comfort for, you know, if they provide you with tools to face the suffering of existence, you know, which is one of the primary functions of religion, I think.

Seth Price 34:09

So quick questions, just lightning round, if you will. And I don't ever do lightning rounds, but for some reason, so also Jon I don't script these so the questions are right off the head. So I try to make this as close to us grabbing a beer if possible, assuming you drink. I definitely drink I don't know if you do, but I do. Though I can’t do this while I drink.

Jon Steingard 34:27

Yeah, I've done both ways. I've done interviews with a beer in hand, especially if it's audio only. And and I've come to the realization that I might think I'm better with a beer in hand, but I don't think I objectively am better.

Seth Price 34:41

I after the debate I popped on I got on Xbox with a couple friends of mine. I don't even think I played but mostly I just wanted to someone to talk to. And yes, apparently hilarious, but and I don't believe I was drunk. However, it was one of those things where they were like, Who are you like your jokes are funnier and you're being really mean? To Person A, B or C, I'm like, Well, I mean, he's being a punk, you know, so there's no way I could do this in a respectful manner. Sure. Um, but the weeds I love the weed. So I'm like, I'm a five on the enneagram. I like it every linked article that I can find to that one word that really doesn't matter for the whole paper, but I wasn't sure the data. Yeah, so just quick, just quick yes or no question. So is having a real place?

Jon Steingard 35:26

I don't know.

Seth Price 35:27

Is hell.

Jon Steingard 35:29

Um, I think it's here now.

Seth Price 35:32

Perfect.

Jon Steingard 35:33

I know, that's not yes or no, but those are really hard to answer yes or no. I would say Heaven and Hell are both here now for sure. And eternity. I have no idea.

Seth Price 35:42

Fair enough. The Quran, the Bible, the Torah, any other book that I can't pronounce from a different faith, equal value? Or is one superior or not none of value of all outside of philosophical?

Jon Steingard 35:54

I think they're certainly all worth studying. And I don't feel qualified. I think the Bible is the most remarkable document in human history and everything outside of that I don't feel qualified to...I probably am not even qualified to say that. (laughs from Seth) But that's my current impression, but I think they're all worth studying. Absolutely.

Seth Price 36:14

Yeah. Fair enough. Also, yeah. So I don't disagree with you on Heaven, or Hell, I have no more lightning round questions to ask. Most of you said, Heaven and Hell are here. And now. I'm curious what you mean by that. But let talk a bit about what I think hell is. So I think hell is something that you and I actively create, by intentionally making decisions that break community and compassion and Shalom. Like we're creating it. It's not a place I go to it is a place that I am making. And I think the same thing for heaven like that's it, that's what the kingdom is, is you and I generating something, creating something? And how is the inverse of that? For right now, I could care less where I go when I die, because existential questions don't hold much weight over me. But, what do you think those two are?

Jon Steingard 37:01

Well, I'm amazed that you're able to say that existential questions don't hold much weight over you, because I feel like they guide my existence (laughter). I feel like I'm obsessed with them. But yeah, I fundamentally agree with you on heaven and hell. I have zero data that I trust on the afterlife, right? Because it's like, How do I know? Right? So tabling that, you know, do I believe in heaven and hell in a sense right now? I mean, what I'm fascinated by is if you go back and you read the the sayings attributed to Jesus in the gospels, he talks a lot about the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven. If you read that as talking about what you just said, here and now, Scripture kind of comes to life! Because I really do think I am with you, every time we make consequential decisions, we're either making things better or worse for ourselves, for our families, for our communities.

And if you're capable of getting yourself in order and getting yourself together, such that you can make those decisions better than you can bring more and more good to your future self. And also, like yourself now, yourself in the future, your family, your community, your country, like, if you're able to do that really well, there's almost no limit to how far that can spread. And the same is true if you're making really detrimental choices that are damaging to yourself, and to your family, and to your community. And we all know people that are one or the other of those; that once you set yourself down that path, in either direction, it becomes easier and easier and easier to keep walking that out. And so that's become one of the guiding principles for me is going like “okay, I don't know about the metaphysics of God and was Jesus resurrected. I don't, I'm not sure, but I do know concretely that, that I'm capable of making choices that make life better or worse for myself, my family, and my community and so on”.

And so whichever direction I choose to go in it seems to me that pursuing God in a way is a description of trying to choose that path of goodness towards the people- towards yourself and yourself in the future and your family and so on. So, yeah, I think that heaven is expressed as the ultimate ideal of the one destination lying at the end of that one path. And hell being the sort of destination lying at the end of that other path. And you know, when I study the 20th century, and you know, Auschwitz and the Soviet gulags and the probable hundred million people that were killed by, you know, Mao's communist regime in China that we never hear about. Yeah, it's hard not to believe in hell when you read about that stuff.

Seth Price 40:17

100% Yeah. Although that would be one of the things on my list of people would say, “I'm not a Christian, like, I don't fit into the label anymore, because I don't believe in some fiery pit”. There's actually sure and posted a picture thing on Facebook today at Gehenna, in Israel. And the sign literally says, In Hebrew, there are no fires here, like, none. Enjoy your stay, see what you want to see. Take your pictures, but just FYI, there are no fires here. (Jon laughs) Um, yeah. I'm curious, what is the impact been on your family? You know, yeah, of all this madness that I'm participating in now. What has the impact meant for your family?

Jon Steingard 40:54

Yeah, I mean, well, my wife has been on a very similar journey to me, which I'm grateful for, because I know a lot of people that have sort of gone gone through this process of deconstruction in their faith, and, and maybe their spouse wasn't on board and then cause some problems, you know. So I'm grateful that that wasn't the case for us. I mean, my wife and I are both pastor's kids, we have very similar baggage. And so yeah, my kids are three and two. So they're not quite articulating these things yet. But, I think the fact that our kids are with us, and that we're conscious of our responsibility to raise them has put fuel on this particular fire.

Because it's like, it's caused both my wife and I to be like, well, man, we need to know what we believe. Because our kids before too long are going to start asking questions, you know, and they're going to notice that all of their cousins go to church, and we don't.

Seth Price 41:53

You said your kids were three and one?

Jon Steingard 41:54

Three and two.

Seth Price 41:56

Well, I will tell you so mine are 11, 8, and five, and they do start asking questions. And between the made up questions that they sometimes get from their friends and their friends, parents, and my wife, and I just straight up to say, “I don't know, some people say this, some people say this, and I have no idea”.

And for the most part, they leave it alone. They're like, “okay”, like, it's just bigger than I know how to answer, buddy. Like, I don't? I don't know. And if they somebody tells you they do, they're a liar. Because they also don't know.

Jon Steingard 42:23

Well, I think that's a good approach. I actually, I went to therapy quite a bit last year, when I was in the middle of dealing with this stuff privately before I sort of became public about it. And one of the issues that kept coming up in my therapy sessions was this pressure I felt to present my kids with a coherent worldview. Because I had felt like my parents had done that for me.

Now, of course, I was questioning it and sort of doubting the worldview, they handed me. But but I saw the value and they created us a stability for me in my youth that was centered around this Christian worldview. And I think that's worth something. And so I was sort of like struggling with what coherent worldview am I going to present my kids with? And, you know, I said, this thing to my therapist, and I said, You know, “I just want to do it, right, like parenting, I want to do it right”. And she just said, “you know, do you think there's such a thing?” And I, and I thought about that for a while. And my response to her was, “well, I think there's such a thing as doing it wrong”.

But yeah, I think the only conclusion I could come to is that instead of trying to figure out God entirely, and present this idea of God to my kids, and have that be the foundation of their confidence and stability in life that I probably am going to have to make sure that my wife and I, personally and specifically, are creating their foundation of stability and confidence in life. That I may not be able to say with confidence that I know exactly who God is or what God is but I can say, with confidence, that as long as I'm able to I will be right here (and) I'm on your side, I've got your back. And I believe in you.

And, you know, that's not nothing. And so that's sort of the approach that my wife and I are taking right now. And just like you said, when we start getting to the point where they can articulate, you know, questions about religion, or faith, or whatever, there's going to be a lot of us saying, “you know, we're actually not sure about that (and) here's, here's some things that that some people believe and here's some things some other people believe in I don't know, like, what do you think?” And using it as a jumping off point for them to develop their own thoughts about things rather than me trying to strictly control everything that they might come to believe.

Seth Price 45:01

Yeah. Another question before that, though, let me clarify some I said a minute ago, because I feel like some people will hear it and be like, wait, what did he say? So when I said that existential questions about where I'm going, when I die really don't matter to me. It's for a couple reasons. So logically, I was somewhere before I was in this bald head. And I'm fine with that. And I don't think anybody knows what happens when we die. But I know that if there's a God, it's probably a loving one, or it doesn't matter. So…

Jon Steingard 45:28

Yes!

Seth Price 45:29

I'm not all that worried about that either because I can't affect either one of those. So it's not that it's not an important thing to talk about, it is that I don't really have any input in it being right or wrong. And I don't know that if I'm…I don't, I don't like it doesn't matter. Because of that..that's why I say doesn't matter. Not that it's not worth thinking about.

Jon Steingard 45:45

No, I actually really agree with you. Because that's how I answer the question when someone asks me, am I worried about going to hell? That's how I answer that question. I just say “no, not in the slightest”. Because, to me, the traditional Christian concept of Hell, I suspect does not exist because it's not to me congruent with a loving God.

Seth Price 46:08

It's not really congruent with the early church either, however, but…

Jon Steingard 46:12

Right! And, you know, even within Scripture, I mean, there's this book that I really love called Her Gates Will Never Be Shut by Bradley Jersak. And it details three different views that you could hold within Christianity of what hell might be. And you know, infernalism would be eternal conscious torment, annihilationism is just that, how just beings you cease to exist. Yeah. And then universalism, which is the idea that in the end, God reconciles everyone to himself, which there's actually a lot of scriptural basis for. And of course, I look at universalism, and I go like, well, that's the one I would prefer. And then anyone who wants to disagree with me, I would say, well, like, “Well, why don't you want that”?

Seth Price 47:00

(laughter) That's a good question.

Jon Steingard 47:02

You know? So yeah, with the hell thing, I typically say like, I think hell either doesn't exist or it…I mean, there's basically no version that I can find plausible, where hell, as far as eternal conscious torment exists, I can't find it plausible. So I’m not worried about it.

Seth Price 47:22

I agree. I think I was recording, at least for the unedited version of the show before but before we got started, you had said, you know, there are things now that you're slightly different with than you were, I guess, at the beginning of all this madness in May, or even like a year ago, what are those things where you're like, here's where I was and here's where I'm at now.

Jon Steingard 47:39

Yeah, um, we've talked about them a little bit, but the idea that Christianity has contributed so much to the culture that I'm a part of. That is something that is a more of a newer realization, the pairing of the fact that I think Christianity is potentially better than, like holding Christian beliefs might be more beneficial than sort of naturalistic beliefs. Like, put it this way, I would rather a loving God than no God at all. And even if that God is mysterious, which if he is real, he definitely is mysterious. I would rather be a part of a larger story than a part of no story. And I would rather believe that that story is going somewhere good than nowhere at all. Yeah. And, so in that sense I think there's a lot about Christianity that's better than being an atheist, or a naturalist or a reductive physicalist, or whatever. And so you compare that idea of it being beneficial (or) you pair that with the idea that it's actually intellectually reasonable to hold that view. I mean, those two things together are powerful. And that's a realization I've only come to in the last couple of weeks.

Seth Price 49:03

Yeah.

Jon Steingard 49:04

And it's certainly a long ways off from actually believing but it's more than I had a few months ago.

Seth Price 49:11

Yeah, it's honest. I like that. Honest answers are the best ones. They're only ones that matter. So this is the question I asked you about at the beginning. And then I'll wrap it back up and give you back to your family. So we probably danced around it. But just nutshell it.

So when you, Jon, say if there's God here's what I'm trying to say. Like, this is what that is,

Jon Steingard 49:31

yeah.

Seth Price 49:32

These are the words that I'm trying to wrap around whatever that is. What's the answer?

Jon Steingard 49:36

Yeah.

So I, my favorite book of all time, is The Great Divorce by CS Lewis. And I went back and read it again about a week ago. And for those of your listeners that haven't read it before, are not familiar. It's not a big book. It's pretty small. And it's basically this fictitious story of a dream that CS Lewis had. It didn't actually happen. But he tells it as if it was a dream. And in it basically, people in a version of hell which is not very hellish, it's just sort of a version of humanity almost or earth. And these people get a chance to ride a bus up to heaven.

But when they get to heaven, they find that their bodies are insubstantial. And that heaven is this place that's so real that these people that are visiting it, they can't even exist there without pain. Because, you know, there are these like insubstantial bodies that are that aren't able to influence the matter in heaven. So like, blades of grass are like knives, and like, drops of rain are like bullets. And each of the people has the opportunity to stay. And gradually they would become more substantial and a climatized to Heaven. They're free to do that, or they're free to go back to hell, basically. And what's interesting is, you're privy to all these conversations.

And in each one of them, there's something that's preventing this person from staying in heaven. And it's always, always, always them holding onto an idea that no longer works, but they refuse to let it go. And it sort of paints this picture that your own stubbornness is the only thing preventing you from being in heaven-from experiencing heaven. And that image is so powerful to me. Because I've had this thought of, like, if God is real I don't want to be so stubborn that I miss it, you know. If there's a way of being that's better than my current sort of way of being, then I want to know about it, and I want to learn about it, and I want to be open to it and not just reject it because I'm stubborn.

So I've started, I mentioned earlier in our conversation, that I've started referring to God as “being”. Because the word God has so many hang ups for me and so much history, that I'm I'm kind of going like, what if I think of God as “being” itself. And I also started using the pronoun she or her not because I actually think God is female but more “being” as female, but because although you can make an argument for that, that's a whole other conversation. But I'm trying to shake up these preconceived notions of God and allow myself to be open to things that I hadn't considered before.

So one of the things that I've been saying a lot recently, and my wife and I've talked about this a lot, is that I've said, “I'm ready to submit to “being”. And what that means to me, it's sort of comes out of that idea of The Great Divorce. Like, I don't want to be so stubborn that I miss goodness. I don't want to be so obsessed with one form of what I think is goodness that I miss this vast sea of goodness. And the only way you get to experience all of it is if you submit, and if you let your preconceived notions go when you're presented with something new. You don't hold on to the old so tightly that you can't see it. And so, my idea of God right now is “being” itself, and I'm on this journey, where I'm constantly saying I want to submit to being whatever that looks like. And it's sort of a form of saying, I'm ready to believe in whatever God is really there.

You know, and that is, right now, I feel like the best thing that I've got going for me, right, like, I don't know, there's so much I don't know about God, and what's real about him or her or it. But “being” itself. Like I had this thought, I know this is way longer than probably you wanted on this question. But it's a good question. It's a good jumping off point for this. But I have this thought that, you know, you mentioned this earlier, and I really agree with it. I think our deepest held beliefs are the ones that we act out regardless of what we say. And so it almost doesn't even matter what we say we believe. It's like, watch someone, watch them, and you'll know what they believe.

And so I noticed that by the very nature of continuing to live, not ending my own life, and bringing children into the world, and hoping that they live too (that) I'm actually affirming being. Like I'm saying that it's worth it to be here. I'm saying that it's better to exist than not to exist as far as I know. And so in that sense, it's like Yeah, there's suffering in the world. But obviously, I believe that being is still worth it. And so whatever that being is more good than not. And I feel like I'm ready to trust that and submit to that, being whatever, you know, whatever she is.

Seth Price 55:20

I like that. And then just also, nobody's given anywhere close to remotely the same answer to that question all year. I find myself…I don't want to continue to ask that question for January's episodes, and February and March. But I have no idea. I really like having a common thread of questions that run through every episode. I don't know why though. I don't have a reason why. I just kind of like it. Maybe it's because I know I'm gonna have at least one question that I'm gonna ask if I don't know anything else to ask.

Jon Steingard 55:50

Sure. Sure. It gives you some confidence. You’ve got a tentpole waiting for you.

Seth Price 55:52

So we haven't really talked about a lot of what you do now. So point people to where they should go to do whatever you want them to do at the end of this. They're like, Yeah, I don't really care to listen to the music of Hawk Nelson. Although there's nothing wrong with the music of Hawk Nelson. And full disclosure, Jon, I've never been a big fan of Hawk Nelson. But that's okay.

Jon Steingard 56:12

Hey, fine with me man.

Seth Price 56:14

I've eclectic music tastes today. I've only listened to cumbia. And yesterday was only Johnny Cash. And then the day before that was Big Bill Broonzy…Big Bill Broonzy is the man somebody should give that man a posthumous emmy or Grammy or whatever it's called? Where do you want people to go?

Jon Steingard 56:33

You know, what's funny is I know, in these conversations, typically, a guest will have like a book or an album or, or sort of something to hawk. And I have nothing of the kind. So I also find it really, really funny that like, so my Instagram right now has been basically consumed by these questions and issues and discussions on this topic about God and deconstruction and faith and stuff. And but career wise, I do film work. And so I do you know, music videos, I do video content for other artists, I do a bunch of commercial work. And whenever I'm on like, a commercial shoot or something, they're like, oh, like, let me follow you on Instagram, you know, so I can see your work. And I'm like, Ahhhh, yeah, that that's not…

I feel like my Instagram, if you follow me on Instagram requires a little explanation. But yeah, so. So for anyone who actually is interested in what I do, which, which I don't assume is, is the case. But the work that I do is, is the film work that I do is up at my website, Steingardcreative.com. It's just my last name, and then creative.com. And then, if you're more interested in sort of my philosophical and theological wonderings, then that is over at my Instagram, which is just, you know, @jonsteingard on Instagram. And then I sort of have been messing about on Twitter, a little bit in a renewed way, the last few months, but then also discovering what a what a brood of vipers that can be.

Seth Price 58:10

But it's so much easier to mute people on Twitter. It's so much easier.

Jon Steingard 58:14

Oh, yeah that's fair.

Seth Price 58:16

It's totally fine.

Jon Steingard 58:18

Yeah.

I've really tried to not block or mute anybody as much as possible on social media, because I really value dissenting views.

Seth Price 58:29

You can tell when it's like a troll account. They only follow people, and they never post anything. So those are the people that I mean. Yeah, yeah. Just the fake random bots.

Jon Steingard 58:39

Sure. Yeah, that's fair.

Seth Price 58:41

So we'll get well I'll put links to those in the show notes. Jon, thank you for coming on.

Jon Steingard 58:45

My pleasure, man. Thanks for chatting.

Seth Price 59:11

Being. God is being I think Jon's right. I think there are many ways to say what we mean when we mean God. And Jon preached a few times, especially to me, as someone that has done my share of wrestling, and continues to do so weekly, daily. Jon really spoke to me quite a bit in this episode. So if that happened for you, tell a friend about it. Write me some email, give me some feedback. Let me kind of know your thoughts on the show. It helps so much. I want to thank you for listening. Thank you for continuing to challenge your horizons and for allowing me to do the same with mine in such an open and honest way. If you have yet to do so you need to you know I'm about to do the patron thing and you're gonna hit the little fast forward by three 30 seconds button, but I'm not going to talk for 30 seconds and you really don't want to miss something.

So here's what we're gonna do. Hit pause, go down in the show notes, hit subscribe, consider supporting the show, I recently turned on the ability for those that want to, to do an annual subscription on that. So you don't have to be bothered with messing with it. But I will say show back up. Every week, I try to post some things there, and try to make it worth your while. But when you do the annual version, I believe you save like a 30. It's like a 33 day discount. So a little over a month because the year doesn't add up correctly. consider doing that rating and reviewing continues to be a fantastic way to help the show as I was talking about it with your friends sharing it on social media. You can also follow the show on social media.

And there is a honest discussion group where you will find people daily, multiple times a day having conversations and thoughts and concerns and questions and really good chats about faith and religion. That's called Can I Say This At Church honest discussions group. If you will look for that on Facebook. You'll have to search for it. And there's some questions to answer there. And we'll get you in that community. But it is a safe place, and it's one of my favorite places. Today's music is from Davis Smith. He was gracious enough to allow me to use his music in today's episode and I am thankful for him and all of the past artists and the coming future artists on the episodes. You can hear his music, as well as all the others on the Spotify playlist for the show. And you'll find links to him in the show notes.

Take care of yourself this fall.

Be safe.

You are blessed.

We'll talk soon