Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

Seth Price 0:31

There's a quote that's going to come up in todays conversation. And it says

it is so ironic that the same kind of groups, if you're going to draw a Venn diagram, the same kind of groups that really want to make America Christian again, or Britain Christian again, are the same kind of groups that really don't like immigration; let's be honest. And yet, if you really wanted to make America Christian again you'd be letting in everyone from the global south who wanted to come. That is how you make America Christian again.

I'm Seth, this is the Can I Say This At Church podcast and that is a massive question. Right?! Making something Christian again. What does that even mean? How are we going to do that? Is that the point of Christianity to begin with? I'm not certain that it is. I'm not certain that that term even matters anymore. And I'm aware of how offensive that could be to many people including maybe you if you're listening. And so I want to ask you to stay with me. I brought back Dr. Stephen Backhouse, who would have been on the show a few months ago. It was one of the most popular episodes of the year. But we ended that briefly, because on that day, I had over committed myself and I had three interviews to record because I am insane. And I'm also not good at time management. And so Stephen came back (and) we discussed further about Christianity. We discussed what the heart of a Christian nation needs to be through a lens of Bonhoeffer and through a lens of the New Testament. We discuss what we're doing with the Bible, when we try to use it as an instruction manual to run any country, we discuss passive resistance, benign ambivalence, we covered so much ground. We even talked in brief about QANON and it is an honor to have him back on the show. And it's an honor to present this conversation to you.

Right before we go, I have a request. Do me a favor. I have some lofty goals for next year for the show, but I'm going to need your help, you could support the show on Patreon, you could rate and review the show because that's what you should have done three weeks ago when you thought about it. And you're like, you know what I can actually afford a cheap and McDonald's coffee once a month to support the show. But not everybody can do that. Some people can.

But just share the show on social media or refer it to a friend, because that is the way that things just grow. And so do me a favor, find your favorite episode from this past year or favorite two or three episodes and send them to a friend put them on social media tag me in it, I would love to know which episodes resonated with you, because that could honestly help inform next year. And with that, let's roll the tape with this conversation with Dr. Stephen Backhouse.

Seth Price 3:33

Dr. Backhouse. Welcome back to the show. I like to get that doctor out of the way you earned it. We'll use it and then I'm not going to use it again. So welcome back to the show. Thanks for being willing to come back on for part two. And I'll pause there, because we had a part one it was maybe a month ago. I don't know when people were listening because this is the internet. I actually forget the actual release date. But it was early in October. We talked about politics, Christian nationalism, President Trump, the church, a lot of things, and a lot of feedback from that show, which we discussed earlier. And if you haven't listened, you should probably hit stop and bro, go back and listen to that one. So that maybe there's a little better context for today. You don't have to though, you're a full grown adult listening to this. You can do whatever you want to do.

Stephen Backhouse 4:17

Can I hit stop? I can't remember everything I said.

Seth Price 4:18

Doesn't matter. If you want to cheat. There's a transcript of the episode, just go right to the website, you can read exactly what you said maybe Ctrl+F it and find a word that you want. And then that'll tell you what you said. Yeah, those transcripts, it is fun to watch the people that link back to them. Like there's JSTOR link to one of them; from what I understand like JSTOR is like I don't even know what it is exactly.

Stephen Backhouse 4:39

It is academic journals and things.

Seth Price 4:40

It's linked to one of the episodes and I was like, when I saw it in the things pop through. I'm like, What is that? Like I don't what that is.

Stephen Backhouse 4:49

Somebody m has used your podcast as their references in their journals and things.

Seth Price 4:51

Fantastic. I hope they loved it. I hope it was good. It's probably a reference of what not to do.

Stephen Backhouse 4:55

You are in there man! You’re a footnote in the academic halls; it’s brilliant!

Seth Price 4:57

I did it. I wish I could remember the episode.

Stephen Backhouse 5:03

Good job everybody! Good job Can I Say This at Church.

Seth Price 5:05

Mostly, good job to the guest, because I'm sure it wasn't something that I said. So, anyhow, welcome back. So we had talked about nationalism and politics in America and overarching(ly) just the nationalism that seems to plague the world. And you sent me a message saying “we really ended on a lot of down notes but there is hope”. So I’d like to start there, hope for what? That we’ll fix it? Hope that we’ll somehow as a church figure out how to better do this, like hope for what? For context, we're recording this the day after the last debate, which was more civil, but what do you mean, hope how?

Stephen Backhouse 5:42

So a lot of people do ask me for hope. I don't know if I can give quite the hope that people want. Now, I'm not equating myself at all to, you know, I have a, she's a British African priest, a friend of mine in here in the UK. And she's a black, English woman. And people always want her as the public face of black Christianity, you know, in the Church of England, to, “oh, can you just tell us something to be hopeful about! Like, look at the BLM movement, look at the injustice and look at the, all these problems, please, can you just give us some hope?” And she’s basically like, “no, it's bad”. It's like you just want me to very quickly slap a little bandaid on top of all this, right. And, so I'm not equating myself with her because I think she's doing more important work than I am. Her name is Sharon Milbank, by the way, very lovely. But anyway…

Seth Price 6:45

Sharon's got an email, here we go.

Stephen Backhouse 6:48

That’s right. And, anyway, the point is, like, I feel like that sometimes. When she said that, I was like, Oh, I feel kinda like that. Sometimes I get people who want a happy story. But for me, the hope is not that you're going to fix it. And the election is not going to fix it. And it didn't get broke(n) in 2016. It broke a long time ago. And, it's not going to get fixed. But the hope is that the truth will emerge. So I'm a big fan of Kierkegaard, Søren Kierkegaard, I can't even remember if I talked about Søren Kierkegaard.

Seth Price 7:30

We did, because I remember having to Google how to spell his last name, because autocorrect is not happy with it.

Stephen Backhouse 7:35

So my wife tells me, I'm very bad at plugging my own stuff. So I'm going to plug my own. I wrote a biography of him a while ago, is like a book meant to be read by normal people. And it has some sense of why his life might be relevant to modern life today right. So it's called Kierkegaard A Single Life I published a few years ago, but in the back of my mind was always how he offers some kind of hope to our Christendom today. So his big contribution was he said,

Christendom has done away with Christianity,

cultural Christianity, people who think their nations are inspired by God or that their nation was a Christian nation or that, you know, and he's thinking about Denmark in the 1850s. And the kind of thing he's describing is America in the 2020s, as well. So don't think oh, we're not a European, so it's not relevant. It actually is relevant.

And one of his things was, he was like, I'm trying to reintroduce Christianity into Christendom. Because this cultural Christianity has introduced you to the idea that your patriotism and your Christianity are the same thing. Or that your membership in a culture is the same as being a Christian. But when you're born into a Christian culture, you never become a Christian because you think you already are one. And that means there's a whole lot of people walking around who have never actually started to follow Jesus. And the main thing stopping them from following Jesus is because they think they already are. So for Søren Kierkegaard, he said, look, to be honest, I'm not even trying to make anyone become a Christian. All I want is honesty. I just want honesty. And he wrote, at the end of his life, if you don't want to read my biography of him go and get a collection of his books called The Attack Upon Christendom, which is a collection of his writings at the end of his life. And it's a series of some newspaper articles and editorials that he wrote, where he just said, look, I'm like the fireman who's racing through town at midnight, clanging the bell, telling everybody that the town is on fire. I don't have all the solutions to fixing the town being on fire. But my job right now is to just tell you, it's not okay. You're in big trouble. And that's part of the process. We I need that part as well, because right now the sleepy citizens of Christendom think that everything is good.

And he said, no, my job is to tell you that it's bad. In fact, he said, “I'm going to make you vomit”. He switched metaphors and said, “I'm like the doctor that has to give you a noxious chemical to make you vomit”. Because it feels bad to vomit. But it's because you've got poison in you and you need to get it out. And so what he said was the hope was just in looking at yourself, honestly. That's where the hope comes from. Once you realize how bad it is now we can start to do something.

Seth Price 10:36

Two things I want to stretch apart there. You said what you wrote, and I will agree that at the end of last episode, I'd asked you to plug the places that you want people to go and you're like, “well, don't read my stuff. Read some good stuff”. So your wife is correct. So she is accurate. (Laughter)

Yeah, but I will say humility is a very good quality to have. So I appreciate that. Because nobody likes the guy that’s just like just read my stuff. No, nobody wants to talk to that person.

Stephen Backhouse 11:01

Doesn’t your heart sink when you're in a Christian meeting it and the speaker always says you can buy my books at the back afterwards.

Seth Price 11:07

Yeah, I struggle with some of the things just a side tangent, like I lead worship at my church. And when I do well, and some days are better than others, like Sunday, I'm like, oh, that sounded good. And internally I’m like I did a good job today. And other people. Great job, great job. And I just stand there. Like, I don't know what to say. Thank you. Thank you doesn't feel right. Because I feel like the expectation is I do a great job. Like you don't reward a fish for swimming. You know, like, I just go “Oh, thank you have a good Sunday”. And my wife like, “what are you doing? Say something.”

(But) I don't know what to say

Stephen Backhouse 11:40

My CDs are for sale at the back!

Seth Price 11:43

I just have to make them.

Um, what is a normal person? Because you said you wrote it for a normal person. So what do you mean normal, like a person that didn't grow up in the church person without a degree?

Stephen Backhouse 11:56

My ideal audience was the educated nonspecialists. So, at the end of the day, he was a philosopher and theologian, so, but if you are interested in you know, he invented the phrase leap of faith, for example. So if you know anybody that's ever taken a leap of faith, or know somebody who says that. Kirkegaard invented it, it was in Spider Man, you know, the multiverse. Kirkegaard invented that phrase. And if you think that it's important to walk the talk, practice what you preach, if you think that authenticity is a value, and that it's not just enough to be born into a culture, you actually have to own it for yourself, you know? Well, that jargon of authenticity-he gave us that-hat is Kirkegaard. We are Kirkegaardians, whether we know it or not. And he's worth paying attention to. And what's more is he was deeply, deeply Christ centered when he did it. He thought the Incarnation was the most important event in the history of events happening. And that reality, if it's going to be real, like if the Incarnation happened, then it is the most important event in the history of events happening. And so everything you do and say, and all your identity, and all your plans, have to somehow constantly be rotating and revolving around the incarnation otherwise, they're false.

So he was like, I can't prove it. I can't prove that the Incarnation happened. But if it did, then a lot of things in our life will look different or should look different. And so this isn't like an argument that's going to convince your Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris', like it's not an argument, it's more of an appeal to people who already claimed to be followers of the incarnation. It's just an appeal. It's like a moral, intellectual, appeal, if you think that the Incarnation is true well, then this is some of the implications of that. This is how reality looks.

So my kind of readers are those sort of readers. I'm not looking for philosophers and academics. The world doesn't need another academic biography of Kierkegaard. There's a few thick ones out there who will hold your door shut, or open, very well.

(Seth laughs out at this mental image)

And they will…they will be used, you know, they'll be used to…a wobbly table will be fixed by the Kirkegaard biographies that are out there. And those are good biographies, the world does need those. But I think that perhaps this really exciting, interesting, follower of Jesus who changed the way we imagined and the way we talk to ourselves about ourselves most educated people don't know anything about that life. They might have heard the name, but they don't know anything about him. And I just thought, I think his life is really interesting and he has all sorts of things.

Because of his stand against cultural Christianity, against patriotism essentially, because he thought that patriotism was a vice that was tempting you away from the way of Jesus. He was, of course, pilloried and attacked by his society. There was, not just because of patriotism, but because of his stand against common sense and common cultural morality he was attacked by the press. He had a two year campaign waged against him in the popular press. There were caricatures of him. Children used to run out on the street and make fun of him. We have records of his accounts, and he had to pay lots of money to hire a cab to drive him out of town so that he go for a walk, because he couldn't walk in town anymore, because people would make fun of him because he bothered to take a stand against common Christian morality.

Seth Price 15:52

I know so little about him.

Stephen Backhouse 15:54

And he's so interesting. And he had a really beautiful love life, he had a really beautiful love affair, where he broke it up on purpose, because he didn't want to draw his fiance into his life, which was always going to be an attack on culture. And he didn't want to curse her by bringing her in. And he had to engineer a way to break up with her so she wouldn't be devastated. And it’s just….this guy was not living in some little academic cloister he was living in a really interesting life. And there was a riot at his funeral.

Can you imagine today any philosopher who died and there would be a riot at his funeral?

Seth Price 16:33

I'm not sure today if the average populace knows of a philosopher alive period, unless they're currently in college. They are just unaware.

Stephen Backhouse 16:41

Right! And it was all because he was trying to be Jesus like in the way he thought about the world.

Seth Price 16:46

Those tomes that you were talking about the ones that are going to hold open your door. So they're large enough, then and I'm in a pun mood so that's this moment. So they could literally, they're big enough and strong enough to literally hit the nail on the head and do some damage. Yes?

Stephen Backhouse 17:00

Yeah, you could do some carpentry. (both laugh)

Seth Price 17:03

Alright, so you use the word good a few minutes ago, and you used it on your message as well, if there are good things that we should focus on. So what are you defining is good? And then what are some of those things so and maybe how do we focus on them?

Stephen Backhouse 17:16

Last time, we talked I just would say it's a bad state right now, where we have a lot of people who call themselves Jesus followers who are calling evil good and good evil. And it's been happening for a long time, and I don't think you can fix it. I don't think it's fixable. I don't want to say irredeemable. Because that's not a judgment for me to make. But I don't think it's fixable.

So what's good about it is that there are some people who are now really, clearly…well, I saw this quote the other day, I'm stealing it. It was somebody else's Twitter quote, and it was, you know, “we've reached the stage where calling yourself a follower of Jesus means giving up your cultural identity as a Christian”.

Seth Price 18:01

I saw that as well, somewhere? Yes, maybe you shared it.

Stephen Backhouse 18:05

Maybe I said it in the last time?

Seth Price 18:07

No, no, no. I saw it somewhere else. I forget where I saw it. It doesn't matter. Yeah, I remember seeing that as well. And I paused to stop on it.

Stephen Backhouse 18:12

It's very Kierkegaardian to say that and I think there's some hope in that. Because I think what passes for Christianity in the majority world, certainly in the American evangelical world, certainly in the sort of Canadian, cult Canadian, evangelicalism I grew up with what people are absolutely convinced as Christian and are doing so with very sincere, honest hearts is just so far away from anything that anybody in the New Testament would have recognized. That it's actually hard to imagine. And you sound like you're exaggerating when you say, let's make a list of the Top 10 things that American evangelicals value. And then you put it against, and sometimes it'll be the exact opposite, to what the New Testament Christians valued.

And so the dichotomy now is so stark I think. It's becoming easier to see. And so a lot of people, there's hope now that the way of Jesus is becoming much more clear. And the minority that follow The Way of Jesus, I think, have always been the minority. So you always hear these stories about, “Oh, we were a Christian nation, and we're not Christian anymore, and we've lost our way”. No nation that ever called itself Christians was ever Christian. Hmm. No, none of them were! None of them were. They all were some sort of Christianized morality and common sense and military expansionism wrapped up with religious language, but they none of them were ever following the way of Jesus. So you didn't fall from some heady height. You never were up there.

And that's true for every nation that calls itself Christian .Germany, the UK, the Roman Empire it's just true for all of them, right. So the fact that we Got a state where that lie of the Christian nation is just shown to be so shallow, so hollow, I don't find it totally bad that that's happened. I don't think America as a Christian nation is redeemable. I think once American followers of Jesus stop trying to make their nation Christian again now we're gonna start to see some good stuff happen. But followers of Jesus have always been a minority within any Christian nation.

It's not like the Christians have reduced im number, it's kind of the same number has always remained and this is where, Kierkegaard makes this point as well, about people always complain, “Oh, Christendom we've lost so many! So many people used to call themselves Christian, and now we don't anymore”. And it’s like, “Well, no, it's just people are becoming more honest, now that they know what Christianity is, and they don't want it now they're just being honest. Surely, it's better to be honest than to be a hypocrite”.

Seth Price 20:57

Hmm, yeah, I've used that arguement often.

Stephen Backhouse 21:00

There's the census that comes out all the time. And I'm sure the American situation is the same. I don't know the poll numbers. But here in the UK, we had these national census and in 2001, there were 72% of the population said it was Christian. And then, in 2011, it dropped to, you know, 60%, or something. And so all the Christians here, especially the kinds that you can imagine the real culture warrior ones, “Oh, my gosh we've lost 12% of the Christianity has declined by 12% of the population”. And I'm a guy who's done work on those numbers. And I know that that 72% in 2001 (that) those questions were deliberately linked to ethnic identity, and national identity. And the census takers were treating Christian, basically the way we would treat white, or white English speaker. And so a lot of those people who were checking the Christian box were actually checking it because they were being asked questions about their ethnic identity for example. And then they moved to a different section of the poll. And they also started to ask you more details. So instead of just checking the box, Christian, you now have to ask, Are you Roman Catholic, Protestant, are you Baptist, charismatic, Pentecostal, they made you think about it. And this time 60% of the population or whatever it was check the box. And it's not that we all of a sudden became 12% less Christian, we just became 12% more honest, which is surely a good thing.

Seth Price 22:32

I'm assuming the nones, so in America, the Pew research study in Barna as well, but Pew, usually, I think the nones are the fastest religious organization in America, fastest growing behind want to say Islam and Sikh. And then Christian, what's funny is, and Professor Soong-Chan Rah over at Northpark has done some work on this. If you look at immigration policies and immigration inflow, versus the poll data that shows the amount of people that call themselves Christians, they are literally a mirror image. So as immigrants are unable to come in and stay as they're stuck as elsewhere, like, basically, what it's saying is people from Latin American countries that are coming up, are bringing their faith with them. And they're basically skewing the whole polls. But when you turn them off, everyone else that's still being honest are being honest. But you stopped counting half the people because you said they couldn't come here anymore.

Stephen Backhouse 23:26

And so ironic that the same kind of groups, if you're going to draw a Venn diagram, the same kind of groups that really want to make America Christian again, or Britain, Christian again, also tend to be the same kind of groups that really don't like immigration. Let's be fair, let's be honest. And yet, if you really wanted to make America Christian again, you'd be letting in everyone from the global south who wanted to come. So that’s how you make Christian America Christian again.

Seth Price 23:50

Yeah, absolutely.

Stephen Backhouse 23:52

But what Americans mean by that is actually we want to make America white, Protestant again, or whatever that they're thinking. So then I would counter that even your Barna polls and even your nones, I would say, well, all that you're seeing, it always was none. It's just that people are now starting to have a name for the thing that they always were. Or even the people that didn't think that they were…they're not followers of the way of Jesus, they are people who look at their skin ago while I'm white, where I'm from Texas, so I guess I'm a Christian. Like they're associating their cultural identity with their Christianity and that has changed now, and that's good. It is honest.

Seth Price 24:37

Yeah in Australia or New Zealand, I forget where, Jedi actually made the list I forget which place.

Stephen Backhouse 24:45

(laughs) Yeah they made it here as well.

Seth Price 24:47

Yeah, but it's been a thing there now it's like a decade now and the numbers keep climbing.

Stephen Backhouse 24:52

Because it's a little bit like the way the Church of Satan operates in America. It's not that there's people actually think their Jedi’s or actually think they're Satan right there. It's a protest affiliation.

Seth Price 25:04

I like it regardless.

Stephen Backhouse 25:05

It's trying to show the lie to a lot of religiosity in our culture that why does this group get special interest? They're just using the logic of our own democracy to its proper effect basically.

Seth Price 25:16

I want to draw on your knowledge. And I want to give people some practical things to focus on good things that they can do to maybe follow the way of Jesus. So I don't know when this is going to release because honestly, I'm not that far planned out. Just not just being honest.

Stephen Backhouse 25:32

But we know whatever is gonna happen, right, like, we know that if Biden wins, then the Trumpian American Christians are gonna get even worse, right? And if Trump wins, then the Trumpian American Christians are gonna get drunk on their own Trumpiness.

Seth Price 25:44

So what does the average person listening do then on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, really, probably more than Sunday, like what should we do as Christians trying to follow the way to physically move the pole? Even if it makes us look like your regard? Or someone else? It's gonna get lambasted, like what do we do? What are some practical 2,3,4,28 whatever things? Well, not 28.

Stephen Backhouse 26:06

Two things came to mind. One is just once you strip Jesus, once he gets knocked out of Christian religiosity of this sort of churchianity culture, once he gets knocked out of that, by the way, he's not welcome in that culture anyway. The easiest way to get Christians mad at you is to stand up and just quote Jesus at them. Which is well known. You ask loads of people I know, famous pastors Brian Zahnd and Greg Boyd. Yeah, they will tell you the easiest way to get Christians bad is just simply to quote Jesus back at them.

Seth Price 26:40

In the sidebar. I Brian had a post yesterday. And I don't always like what he says. But he basically wrote a post and 97% of the post is I think, Psalm 124. And someone said, You sound a lot like a progressive Christian. And he's like, sure if Psalm 124 is a progressive Christian, absolutely. He's like, I don't think you're mad at me here. I don't I feel like but he wasn't quoting Jesus. But he's still quoting scripture. He's like, I don't know why you're upset at me. Like if that's how you want to read that. I guess that's on you bro.

Stephen Backhouse 27:07

I don't know. Lisa Koons, who is the she's African American lady who runs 24-7, the prayer network in America. And she quoted just Jesus saying, “I've come to loose the bonds of the oppressed, set the captives free”. And somebody wrote on her Facebook page, saying it was cultural Marxism. This is what I mean, it's like, we've got to the point where people who call themselves Christians do not recognize is the most famous thing that Jesus said about himself. And they would say, that's Cultural Marxism like, this is Christendom, this is what has happened. Christendom has given us a culture where there are people fully aware, literate, adults who think they are Christian and they do not know the most basic, important things about Jesus. And this is not a marginal thing. This is the majority culture and people don't want to be aware of that.

Statistics will tell us it's the majority culture. voting records tell us it's the majority culture. spending habits tell us it's the majority culture, the majority have? Do you know that it's really well known that you can measure somebody's approval for torture of prisoners based on whether they say they're evangelical Christian in America. And it's statistically well known that you can track the more you associate with evangelical Christianity, the more you will agree about torturing prisoners. So just try and imagine a single person in the entire New Testament offering a support for the torture of political prisoners.

Seth Price 28:50

Do you remember where the other sects of the faithful like versus evangelicalism?

Stephen Backhouse 28:55

No, not specifically. I read so much this stuff I've kind of I've lost, it's all amalgamated. Yeah, but it is probably a Christianity Today magazine or something. It was some or Barna. But anyway, it's just that this kind of stuff happens a lot. And it's I want people to know that it's not marginal. It's we're talking central, we're talking everyday normal Christians going to church think that being Christian, this is why Mike Pence could say that he could replace the name of Jesus with the with the Old Glory in his speech, and he could say that the American way is the way of Jesus. He said that in his speech, he can say it (and) nobody gets mad. He can sit down him and his speech writers can write it, they can plan where it's going to happen in the speech. They can get an applause break. And nobody bats an eye. And that's what we have to pay attention to is that nobody bats an eye. This is why we mean Christendom has done away with Christianity.

And so what I want to point out as a positive way to people is that Jesus is really good. He's actually really good! And that noticing the stark difference between the American way or the British way or the middle class way and the way of Jesus is actually just to highlight how good Jesus is. So anything that makes Jesus come into clarity, is good for me, because he's actually really good. So that's like a positive thing. So, you know, in your everyday life, what it sort of comes down to is not being a Shadrach, a Meshach, and an Abednego. How did they protest idolatry? They didn't do it by marching angrily against Nebuchadnezzar, or gathering their supporters, or agitating for religious freedom. They just simply didn't worship the idol. And everyone noticed, and they got arrested. But they just didn't do it like that their protest was just not to participate in the worship of the idol. And part of my work is, I'm just going to say this really, really, I'm pleading American Christians, if you call yourself a Christian, consider not being patriotic. Consider just weaning yourself off patriotism. Because when it really comes down to it, that is the idle at the end of the day.

Seth Price 31:33

What's step one there if it's like a five step plan? Like how do you even because I don't, as an American, if you told that to me, as if you told that to my brother, or some girlfriends? And and I would say this to my brother, so I'll call him out, because I know he'll love me, regardless. So if I told that to him, it wouldn't make sense. Like it would literally be me speaking Greek to him like it wouldn't make sense. So if I told him to be unpatriotic, what is how do you even begin that?

Stephen Backhouse 32:00

But this is where you start to notice the grip it has on our imaginations, then it's easier to imagine.

Seth Price 32:06

It's easier to imagine actually speaking Greek

Stephen Backhouse 32:08

Than it is to imagine that I might, my little heart might not go pitter patter when I see the flag flying. And the earliest Christian saw the kind of feelings you feel when you feel patriotic, they saw that as a temptation to be weaned off of. I don't know if I mentioned this in the last series, in the last episode, but here in the UK we’ve got these big double decker buses. Everybody knows London has double decker buses. And on the side of these buses, they sometimes plaster big adverts, you know, big advertising. And every once in a while, there's a sexy lady that's plastered on the side of a bus. And I'm a red blooded heterosexual male. And I like looking at sexy ladies. But I know that that is trying to attract my eyeballs and my attention. I know that it's trying to press some of the lizard parts of my brain. And so what I do is (recognize) that is a temptation, my wife wouldn't like me looking too long at that bus. I know, it's not good for me either. And for my relationships, and for my inner thoughts. So I'm going to notice when my attention is trying to be attracted and manipulated. And I'm going to try and wean myself off this primitive manipulation.

And I'm not even saying it's unnatural, it's natural, it's deeply natural red blooded heterosexuals to be attracted to women. So we're not saying do something unnatural. What we're saying is, maybe some of the best things in life mean, rising above your natural base instincts.

Seth Price 33:38

And this metaphor, your wife would be the way of Jesus the bus would be patriotism, correct?

Stephen Backhouse 33:43

Yeah. So I have had this before. Listen, also (I’m a) Canadian guy. You know, Canadians love their flag. They like what it stands for. And I used to feel really proud. And I would put a little Canadian button on my coat.

Seth Price 33:56

And that's just the maple leaf, right?

Stephen Backhouse 34:03

Yeah, Canadian maple, red stripe it is great. So my little heart would go pitter patter when I saw Canadian flag flying. And I started to notice that that's kind of similar to what happens when I see a lady on the side of a bus is something here that is trying to attract my attention. It's trying to fixate my attention. There's a narrative there's an identity that this is trying to instill in me or that it represents is that narrative is that identity or the actions that lead to the foundation of Canada or the things that it asks Canadians to do for for the good of their country. Are those things that the way of Jesus would endorse? And the answer is no!

Seth Price 35:06

Let me stay on that metaphor because I like working with metaphors and my work they would tell you often I tell I explained things through metaphor, so you're speaking my love language? So if I'm the church in the buses patriotism. And I'm trying to stay faithful to the bridegroom? Do I just not take the bus? In this scenario? Do I go out of my way? Do I create a new vehicle altogether? Should I try to change legislation to have the buses not be allowed to advertise? And all of those are stretching the metaphor way beyond I think where we're at the beginning. But hopefully you're, you know, kind of what I'm asked like, as the church Am I trying to change the system? Am I putting myself in a position that I am seen objecting, not worshiping, not bowing down to the idol? Or should I just altogether avert it and not be seen pray and secret, quote unquote?

Stephen Backhouse 35:56

Well, I think that you just will, eventually not, you will, it will be visible. The way that early Christians objected to things was not to form an objection to it. It was usually simply just to not participate and to get on with their life. And if the society around them got offended, then they got offended. But the Christians weren't trying to cause offence. So I wouldn't say like on the Fourth of July, go pick it your neighbor's hot dog picnic. You don't drown out the sound of the God Bless America with with worship music. It's more that…

Seth Price 36:39

Is that directed at Sean Feucht. I feel like it is.

Stephen Backhouse 36:43

Yeah, but it's more in your life. And in your way that you live. And in the things you teach your children, you just don't instill patriotism as a value. And you start to realize that being a good neighbor is not the same as being a good patriot. And that, in fact, people who call themselves Patriots are some of the worst neighbors, because they're some of the least likely to love their neighbor, their actual neighbor. And they're the most likely to identify only the people who look like them and sound like them as worthy of their love.

So, being a good citizen is possible without being a patriot, being a good neighbor is possible. Being quietly governed, all these things are possible. It just means you don't love the country that you're in, because you recognize it as a human institution that has limited value. And what it does is it releases you, just like the early Christians were, you look at the way the Apostle Paul treated his different allegiances. We're constantly being told, if you read the book of Acts, sometimes he tells everybody how much nefarious he is, sometimes he tells everybody how he's a Roman citizen, sometimes he says he's a citizen of Tarsus, he brings it out when it suits him, he can fit in with the crowd. But he holds all of these identities very lightly. And he very clearly doesn't put his whole identity in one particular group that he's affiliated with. And he'll even say, to the Greek I am a Greek to the Jew, I'm a Jew. Which is this sort of openhanded, clearly, (he) doesn't love his national identities. He recognizes them as part of his reality. He uses them as a useful tool, but he doesn't give them his love.

And I think that's something that I noticed in the people who I notice as followers of Jesus, they, it's not that they hate America they just refuse to give it all the attention that it wants. Because it's a god and it wants worship. And so one of the best things you can do with gods is you starve them of their worship. You just refuse to hate it or to love it. You just think loving and hating is not the correct…i's not the correct approach to this manmade institution. There is a benign difference really that you can have to these things.

Seth Price 39:01

Honestly, not to go back from I don't even know if it's in the episode, but I'll say, honestly, that sounds very similar to the advisement I've been given from one of our counselors of when your son has some issues, you just starve that of attention. That version of reality, needs to exist in a vacuum. And when it comes out of the vacuum, as a different thing, that one gets the attention, but this one gets nothing.

Stephen Backhouse 39:26

Jesus does this all the time. So he's his approach to a lot of these things. I can't remember if I mentioned about the taxes to Caesar as a classic one.

Seth Price 39:37

I don’t remember that either.

Stephen Backhouse 39:39

So that was a patriotic (tax) so when they said “should we pay these taxes to Caesar?”. The tax that Caesar was imposing on the Jews was a racial insult. It was one that was meant to be you Jews think you're so special, but you have to pay me for the right to worship in your own temple. So it wasn't a tax to keep the lights going and the streets clean, right, it was an insult.

Seth Price 39:55

No we have not discussed that. This is the first time I've heard that. Say that again.

Stephen Backhouse 40:00

Okay, so when they come to Jesus and say, should we pay Caesar’s tax? The tax was a tax that Caesar imposed on Jews as a way to rub their noses in the fact that they were an occupied race. So it wasn't a good civic duty to pay your taxes in order to keep the streets clean.

Seth Price 40:17

Did they do this in other religions where they had conquered? Because it wasn't just you know, that…

Stephen Backhouse 40:21

Well it was connected to the temple.

Seth Price 40:23

But was it that way everywhere as well, I wonder?

Stephen Backhouse 40:25

I don't know. I don't know. But I know that this one was connected to keeping the temple going. So the Caesars tax was being used to keep the temple going. Think of that. The Roman Gentiles are the ones who are keeping the Jewish Temple going. So the whole thing is just come is vibrating with ambiguity and corruption. Right? And so the Pharisees are anti Caesars tax. The Herodians, by the way, are pro Caesars tax because the Herodians built the temple. So Pharisees and Herodians hate Jesus so much that they joined together and they come to Jesus and say, “What do you think of this tax”? And they are essentially asking him to take a side on patriotism. Vecause paying this tax was the event that every year it was during Passover, they would collect the tax, it was always the beginning of a rebellion. It was always thing that called all the loyal sons of Judah have to come back to protect the homeland. It was a patriotic rallying cry.

So when they said Jesus, should we pay this tax? They aren’t asking him, are you a good citizen are good? Are you a good Roman patriot? They're asking him, are you a Jewish patriot? Should we participate in this racial insult? And Jesus says, Yes, basically. He says, well, whose images on this, oh, give it back to him. We've got bigger fish to fry, give Caesar what's his, we've got the image of God, which is in everybody to care about.

If you notice, he's not saying that Roman Empire is evil and corrupt and violent, which it was. He's not saying this tax is being used to pay for corrupt things, which it was. He was just saying, I'm not leading the kind of revolution that tries to redeem the land by kicking out the Gentiles and pay the tax, take the racial insult. We've got bigger things to worry about. And so he treats something within difference, which was literally the reason why everybody else was even in this land at all. Like their whole, their whole identity was formed in what they think about this tax. It was the refusal to pay that tax, by the way, which led to the Great Rebellion in AD 70, which was when the Romans finally had enough and they destroyed the temple and they kicked all the Jews out. It was over that tax.

Seth Price 42:47

I'm not felt this ignorant in awhile and I use ignorant intentionally. I like learning new things.

Stephen Backhouse 42:54

But this is part o…like Jesus is…every time Jesus was given a chance to prove his patriotic chops when he was give a chance to prove his loyalty and allegiance to his inherited ethnic tradition for example, he went the other way. He embraced the Samaritan or the foreigner. The story of the Good Samaritan is a story against patriotism. Because the Levite and the priest they were the ones who shared the man in the ditch all of his ethnic and linguistic and religious heritage. And they're the ones who proved themselves unable to be a good neighbor. And the Samaritan who's the foreigner, outsider, the hated outsider, he's the one who is the good neighbor, right? So everything Jesus is doing is always basically saying, your national allegiance and your ethnic heritage stuff is not guiding you correctly. It is not a good source for morality and goodness.

Seth Price 43:47

I did not know that tax thing at all. I find it slightly infuriating how every time I do one of these somebody will say something as if common knowledge and I'll be like, “I didn't know that”.

Stephen Backhouse 43:59

But it is not common knowledge! But it's not common knowledge, because Christians think that patriotism is a virtue. So we're all reading with power. So we all read those texts as if it's an instruction manual for how to run a country really well. Because that's what patriots do. I've heard that preached in churches as if it's a pro-patriotic text.

Seth Price 44:20

Yeah, pay your taxes.

Stephen Backhouse 44:24

Pay your taxes, be a good Patriot! And no, it's the opposite. And the reason we can read it that way is because we think that the point of the Christian life is to run a country. So of course, the New Testament will now give us good advice and a guide. But in fact, the New Testament gives very bad advice for how to run a country. You have to go to the Old Testament for that. Which is what historically you've seen. You've seen Christians not actually paying much attention to Jesus at all. And spending a lot of time with King David and King Solomon and Moses. And you just see it happening, like, their attention is fixated on how to run a country not on the Sermon on the Mount.

Seth Price 45:02

Yeah, slightly different question entirely different avenue but I'm curious because I've been looking at it the whole time. Why the West Coast Avengers that's not usually at the top of the list for the Avengers? Why West Coast Avengers?

Stephen Backhouse 45:15

This? I don't know what this…this was in 19…gosh, some nerd will tell me 1989…

Seth Price 45:24

Have you even read it because it's definitely important. You've got it framed there. Have you even read it?

Stephen Backhouse 45:28

I got it framed because I love the art. So this is a classic omage to the Fantastic Four. If you're a comic book nerd, you'll know that the Fantastic Four had a famous cover where the mole man's monster is coming out and the fantastic for swarming around. And so when they made this rather jokey offshoot of the Avengers, and they they think they sent them in LA or Portland or something there

Seth Price 45:48

There were a couple offshoots. I think there's one up like in Michigan as well.

Stephen Backhouse 45:51

There's a Great Lakes Avengers as well. Yeah, but yeah, they redid the cover so I framed it because I love the art.

Seth Price 45:57

I just was curious because I've been staring at it this whole time was like, why the West Coast Avengers? It has nothing to do with religion, but I just couldn't help myself.

Stephen Backhouse 46:08

Yeah, you see, look I like comic books. I like Captain America.

Seth Price 46:12

Oh, one of my one of my new favorite podcasts is called Marvel's. This show is not brought to you or advertised at all by Marvel's I just didn't really like it. It's based off of a comic book of Galactus coming to just devour New York.

Stephen Backhouse 46:27

I read that graphic novel and I loved it.

Seth Price 46:30

There's like a 20 part series called Marvel's and it's done by actors. And I'm currently on episode three, and it's about 20 minutes long. And so I listened to about two a day and I'm really enjoying it.

Stephen Backhouse 46:41

I think Kurt Busiek wrote that.

Seth Price 46:41

I have no idea. They say at the beginning in the pre roll credits, you know, based written on the…but I'm not listening to that, because I'm hitting fast forward and then rewind, because I always go too far forward.

Stephen Backhouse 46:53

Oh, I wonder. I gotta listen to that.

Seth Price 46:54

Well, it's really good. But um, I don't know how it follows the book. But fifty years from now, and I want your honest opinion, because this is the work you do. Is the church better with his addiction to power and how that then ties us to politics? 50-60 years from now honestly, do you feel like it's better or it's just going to continue to burn to the ground?

Stephen Backhouse 47:17

50 years is one generation, two generations?

Seth Price 47:21

50 years, I'll have grandkids, I doubt that those kids would have kids. Maybe if they got busy really early, but maybe so one generation away, or my kids generation, my kids…kids?

Stephen Backhouse 47:34

I suspect we're going to start seeing a much starker difference between nationalist Christians and non nationalist Christians, I think it's going to be a dividing line. Like the ones who realize nationalism and this patriotic jingoism and stuff is just not compatible.

Seth Price 47:54

Like a different religion altogether?

Stephen Backhouse 47:56

Yeah I think it is gonna be a really stark difference, because it's already stark. But I think things are separating now. I would say to be perfectly frank, think about the state of America right now. Right? Look at the way the politics works, and the evangelicals work, and the Catholics work. Now imagine looking at the way (that) America is right now and thinking, yeah, this is good. This is going the right direction.

Seth Price 48:19

That is preposterous.

Stephen Backhouse 48:20

Right. And now imagine that a person who says yeah, this is good. They're the ones going into leadership right now. They're the ones going in to be a leader of an evangelical church. They're the ones who are getting into politics. You're already seeing QANON Senators.

Seth Price 48:40

But the ones not becoming leaders and politicians are because they should be following a way that is of Jesus so they wouldn't be running right?

Stephen Backhouse 48:51

This isn't dying away anytime soon. Like, right now. For example, Trump and even like Jerry Falwell, Jr, some of these famous mouthpieces for evangelical politics, they don't really believe this stuff. Like they're pretty overtly or blatantly opportunistic. Trump especially, right, very opportunistic. He doesn't believe QANON. He doesn't believe evangelical charismatic. He doesn't believe that he's the righteous prophetic leader. He's just happy that people like him and so he goes with them, right.

But now imagine that there is a group of people who really do believe this stuff. They're the ones being activated right now. So it is going to get worse and I don't think it's disappearing. It's going to get a lot worse because the people who really believe this stuff they're doubling down already. And the culture, the angry, well resourced; I mean, angry, nationalist American Christians are the most resourced group of Christians history has ever known. They've got more money than anybody else. They've got more people than anybody else. They're having more babies than anyone else. They have more power than anyone else than history has ever known. They're like the most well resource special interest group (that) Christianity's ever had. So they're not disappearing, they're just going to get angrier and angrier. But the difference between what they think is valuable what they want is becoming so much starker now. I'm getting emails all the time from people who's, who said, I thought I was losing my faith and now I realize I'm just not an American evangelical anymore.

Seth Price 50:39

Yes, yes. Print that on a bumper sticker.

Stephen Backhouse 50:42

I'm not saying followers of Jesus are disappearing. And a lot of those people are saying “they can have the word Christian, I don't think I'm gonna win that fight”. I'm a bit like that. I don't think I'm gonna win the fight of the word Christian anymore. I think the word Christian, for a lot of people pretty much means Trump supporter now. All right, fine. That's sad. Too bad.

Seth Price 51:02

Take it, yeah.

Stephen Backhouse 51:04

But yeah, I just got to keep going. So I don't think followers of Jesus are going to disappear. But I think that the battle grounds or the rubble is going to clear after the dust lifts from the battleground we'll see much more clearly where people are. And I don't think followers of Jesus are going to be sitting in mega churches anymore-no.

Seth Price 51:21

Can I ask you about QANON? I don't know enough about it, even though…

Stephen Backhouse 51:26

(sarcastically)

I am QANON! I'd just like to reveal now.

Seth Price 51:29

He's Q! So I was asked twice this week what QANON on has to do with the church? And I was like, I don't know. Because the best that I knowledge, I thought it was like more of a political thing. And then I haven't read I've seen people share like CNN articles about QANON in the church. And to be honest, I don't want to go to any news website until the election is over. Because I just…

Stephen Backhouse 51:50

I know for your own mental health.

Seth Price 51:52

I don't…just the same reason that you you're having your things with social media, like, I just don't I just I just don't I'd rather do literally anything else. I'd rather…I'd rather cut the grass with scissors than do that.

Stephen Backhouse 52:01

Before we talk about QANON, Seth, this is part of the positive. So you said like, what positive can I do? I think just not being obsessed with the things that the world around you is obsessed with is part of your positive. Like that is a light, a city on a hill, just not being obsessed? Do you remember there was a while ago, there's this article going around about a man who said I'm going to be a crappy citizen.

Seth Price 52:27

No.

Stephen Backhouse 52:29

And he happened right at the beginning of the Trump in 2016. This guy just said, “You know what I'm gonna be a bad, he used the word crappy, I'm gonna be a crappy citizen”. I'm not gonna read the news all the time. I'm not going to stay up to date with the current events like, it's pretty obviously this whirlwind of bad news sounds…and he checked out. But he didn't check out in an apathetic way.

What he said was, I'm gonna focus on a local problem that I know is important and will have an impact on people around me. And he has dedicated his energy to clearing up a local Lake, which was providing drinking water for the town. And he put all his energy into that. So you tell me was that a positive or a negative? His benign indifference to everything that everybody else thought was important kept his sanity and contributed to his neighborhood.

Seth Price 53:27

It's only bad for the ad revenue. But I'm fine with that.

Stephen Backhouse 53:30

Exactly. And so this is partly what I say when you when you when you refuse to bow to the idol. When you refuse to just participate in the noisy whirlwind. You might not do anything, but just by refusing to participate, you immediately become a little oasis of calm. Which is good.

Seth Price 53:53

Yeah, I like that.

Stephen Backhouse 53:54

So QANON is the opposite of the oasis of calm.

Seth Price 53:57

Yeah. So I thought that was just political. I thought it was just pizza gate, which I heard about from some podcasts and a few other things that I remembered being when Hillary somebody showed up and some people got shot in a pizza…

Stephen Backhouse 54:11

Well QANON absorbed Pizzagate. The headline is it's a pro Trump conspiracy theory. So that's a headline.

Seth Price 54:17

But how does that connect to the church?

Stephen Backhouse 54:20

So the one of the things it's absorbed is that Hillary Clinton and Bill Gates and all these Hollywood liberal elites are Satanist who kill children and drink their blood. So the especially the charismatic Pentecostal wing of Christianity in America is totally primed for this. Because they hate Hillary Clinton. They love Trump, and they think Satanism is a real and active force in this world. And so they are primed for this.

They also have been primed for generations not to trust the media. Not to trust the official story coming from any reputable news source because it's liberal bias and it's against Christians and all this. So you're just perfectly primed for a conspiracy theory that presses all the buttons that Christians want pressed. I did notice it wasn't, I mean, because we had COVID hit before before America did. And so here I am in England, but I've got my eyes on America too, right because of my work and stuff.

So I'm sitting in England, and we're watching the Italians, and the Germans are sending up, you can read like their editorials in the newspapers and their Facebook stuff, and they're starting to talk about Coronavirus, and they're talking about what they do and how they do it. And then it comes to England and now, the English, we're sharing all our means, and we're talking about Coronavirus, and we're buying toilet paper and stuff. And then it finally lands in America. And it wasn't until it got to America…the conspiracy theory stuff wasn't happening. It was only when it got to America that all of a sudden Coronavirus has been invented by 5g. And it was invented by Hillary Clinton who's a Satanist. And they're gonna put microchips in your blood. Like it was Americans who made us go crazy on this.

And it was, I noticed, it was my it was American charismatic Christians who were the ones who were most sharing this stuff, they were primed for it, they were just ready to go. And the only people I knew who really lost their minds on that, and probably still are losing their minds are Christians. And certainly even in the UK the ones I know who are really into it, are themselves Pentecostal Christians who are very much informed by American Nationalist Christianity. So there's something in that that it’s kind of fitting their narrative of we are secret warriors against the evil satanic world that hates us and wants to kill us. And it feeds that hero, talk about comic books, it kind of feeds that hero narrative that a lot of people (have).

I mean, you know American Christians it is so weird, you guys, American Christianity is the like I said, the most powerful Christians have ever been ever in the history of Christianity. And yet, the dominant narrative is “we are a beleaguered minority. And they're out to get us and we're gonna lose our rights”. And there has never been a time when Christians have been as solid and secure and well resourced.

Seth Price 57:25

I asked that question to people when they say they're being oppressed. And I'll ask them when was the last time you were oppressed? And please be specific.. And that's the semi colon that I'll add after was like it please be specific. And it's always crickets. Always and please be specific. Not what you saw, not what your friend did. Like when was last time you Stephen were oppressed.

Stephen Backhouse 57:49

Yeah.

Seth Price 57:51

Please be specific. And then I'm like, “Well, okay. So you…you were because it seemed traumatic a minute ago, but you can't remember it.”

Stephen Backhouse 57:58

Yes, these anger and tears and rage. Didn't happen. It didn't happen to you or anybody, you know.

Seth Price 58:04

Yeah, I know. (So is) the goal of QANON to conscript the church's influence in power. Is it political? Is it to break the church?

Stephen Backhouse 58:11

No, no! The goal isn’t to conscripted the churches. What this is showing is the usurpation of the Christian imagination that has just been sucked into this narrative. It doesn’t have[sic] Christians in mind. It's meant to be (that) QANON, the anonymous source, is meant to be some insider in the Trump administration, who is releasing tidbits of information, and that Trump is your man. He's like, deeply embedded on the inside. And he's against the global elites, and eventually, he's gonna rescue everybody and blow the lid on this. Since we're on chat. Since we're on conspiracy theory, what's

Seth Price 58:44

Since we're on conspiracy theories, what's the the odds that it's somehow the same genetically like grandfathered child of the Q from Scripture? (Stephen laughs) What are the odds there since we're already on conspiracy, like it's a title that gets passed down Q, it is a title.

Stephen Backhouse 59:01

It's the Q manuscript! So I guess Pentecostals do believe in this after all.

Seth Price 59:03

Why not, anyhow.

Stephen Backhouse 59:06

It is really similar. I was listening to, there's a great if we're gonna plug other people's podcasts, there's one called, You're Wrong About That. Have you heard of Your Wrong About That?

Seth Price 59:12

No, but I like the name already.

Stephen Backhouse 59:16

It's two journalists. And they go back at various pop culture, big events that happened the last 30 years, 20-30 years. And they just look at them again. And they find little details that we hadn't noticed and stuff. And the very first episode is the Satanic Panic in the 80s. Where if you remember, there's a huge foster Yes, yeah, just networks of child daycares across the country are actually being run as pedophile satanic rings. And hearing them talk about that, which that podcast was made five years ago or something like that. And you realize, wow, that's just what q anon is says all the same; it's just come back again. And then it's very similar to what you know, in the Reformation (that) they said about Jews. It's what, in Germany, they were saying the Jews were doing. And it's the same story it's just the actors slightly change. There's always a secret group of wealthy elites, and they're always sacrificing babies and eating them. And they always have a plan to take over the world. And the plan always involves latest technology, whatever that might be.

Seth Price 1:00:21

Always. Yeah.

Stephen Backhouse 1:00:22

And it just happens again and again and again.

Seth Price 1:00:25

Yeah, so you're gonna like this professional segue? Because the only podcast that we should really be plugging besides this one is the one that you do.

Stephen Backhouse 1:00:34

This is the Steven Backhouse plug hour (laughter)!

Seth Price 1:00:38

But no, it is good. So in closing, I'm gonna ask you again, because last time you told people not to do anything that is related to you. And I think that that's a travesty. Your your podcast actually is one of the better ones. I was listening to yours with William Paul Young and Brad Jersak, just a little while ago, I really enjoyed it. I liked the Q and A's. But I'm liking the non Q and A's as well. And q&a is hard to talk about after we talked about QANON. But I mean, question and answer, that's what I mean. So where do you want people to go listen to things and you're more than welcome to plug your own podcast there.

Stephen Backhouse 1:01:14

Oh, go and listen to my podcast! It's called Tent Theology. It's based on the venture I started called Tent Theology, which is my traveling theology School, which I can't travel now. So I started a podcast instead. And it alternates between interviews with various people, some of whom are well known, and some of whom are just really good people that I know, or who I've come across; and also some of my teaching. So I have years of material that I've decided to start to talk into microphone. I have a line by line, political theology, reading of the Gospel of Mark.

Seth Price 1:01:54

Yeah, Mark,, there was an episode on marks few weeks ago.

Stephen Backhouse 1:01:58

Yeah, I started to release that a bit. I'm not gonna do the whole thing on Mark, for the free podcast. I think I'm gonna put some of it behind the Patreon because I don't think people really want 30 episodes, they didn't sign on for 30 episodes on Mark. If you want to, you can pay $3 a month and get Mark. But I would say if you're interested, I mean, do check out the interviews I do with Brad Jersak. You know, Brad, he's a friend of this show.

Seth Price 1:02:26

Brad's great.

Stephen Backhouse 1:02:28

Yeah, he is easily the kindest man I've ever met. I mean, he's such a nice man. And I want to be Brak Jersak when I grow up, you know? So there's a Brad Jersak interview where he’s essentially talking me through my midlife crisis of not wanting to be a Christian anymore.

Seth Price 1:02:40

Brad is great. Um, I'll tell you this in a second. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so I really appreciate your time. For me, it's late afternoon for you we're coming on what Sundown?

Stephen Backhouse 1:02:54

Oh it’s fine! Yeah, it's dark outside, it’s 8:30 at night; it is fine.

Seth Price 1:02:55

The globe is massive. So it's hard to keep track of time and the time zones.

Stephen Backhouse 1:03:01

So I will say, by the way, just if people did want to listen to Tent Theology, I was gonna say. The first three, if you start at episode one, which is fine, and it's good, I recommend that's a good place to start. But the first three episodes are slightly negative; it's me dealing with people writing to me in distress. And they are really angry, they're upset, they're losing their faith. And it's all about that.

The catalyst was Donald Trump holding up a Bible in front of a church and then using the State to clear people up. But after about episode three, we kind of get the negative stuff out of the way, and we turn a corner and we start talking about how good the Kingdom of God really is. And we start to renew the political imagination.

So I would say to listeners, it's not 20 episodes of us talking about how awful American Evangelicals are, that actually is not what happens. We, turn the corner on episode three, and it becomes how good Jesus is and how good the kingdom is, and how relevant it can be for actual, everyday practical life. And I interview a whole lot of Americans as well. So it's not an anti-American podcast.

Seth Price 1:04:11

No, I will say those first three, because you even say, you know, “John writes in and asks”, and I found myself in the car going? Yeah, I know. I know, John, maybe not, John, but I've heard that question; that happened on Wednesday. Yeah; don't necessarily bypass those. But I totally get that. Yeah, absolutely.

Stephen Backhouse 1:04:29

I wouldn't say bypass them. I just say be aware. Yeah, that if you start episode one, that doesn't mean it's going to be 20 episodes of bashing Trump. That doesn't happen.

Seth Price 1:04:39

Stephen thank you again for your time this evening. Very much. So I appreciate it.

Stephen Backhouse 1:04:42

Bless you. I'd say that it is just an extraordinary bad time of history, but I don't think it's hopeless. I don't think it's hopeless. I do think that this is a great time to be salt and light and people of peace. But just remember, a person of peace doesn't mean you're going to drop bombs on your enemies. But we are people of peace. And we get to really do that now. And it might mean banding together with groups of fellow travelers a little bit more than it means picking fights with our enemies. Like going into a village and you find that Jesus says go. He doesn't say go and find the person who's most resistant to your message. He says, go and find the person of peace and stay with them.

And if people are resistant treat them with benign indifference and move on. And I think that might be a survival tactic-it's the one I have right now. And I find no shame in dealing with issues of the world the way Jesus told me to which was seek out people of peace. So if the fight is wearing you down, stop fighting.

Seth Price 1:05:40

Yeah, I like that.

Seth Price (Ending) 1:05:43

As this year draws to a close, I think that it's important to keep our mindset framed on what the goal is for our faith, for next year. And I'll tell you what mine is-mine is to figure out a way to be quiet more often than I speak. To try to hear other people and understand where they're coming from instead of just lambasting humans, because they don't agree with me. And I'm not the best at that, you can ask my wife and my close friends and family. But that is what my goal is, I've got to figure out a way to love other people that I don't see eye to eye on with things that are deeply important to me. I don't know what that looks like for you.

This week's episode was produced by the Patreon supporters of the show and I'm so thankful for every single one of you click the button, make that happen. Remember, if you want to go to the store for the show and buy any of the merchandise there, there is a promo code that is going to save you 15% that is FU2020. Because FU2020.

So and then one last thanks, music today is from friend of the show Remedy Drive. Their lyrics are haunting, aren't they? They cause you to sit and steep and what the implications of them are. And I think that that is a fantastic and prophetic way to use music. The song today is called Using My Name. And that is on their upcoming release that comes out in the middle of January called Imago Amor. You're gonna find links to that song when it's available on the Spotify playlist. I'm thankful for you.

Be blessed.

We'll talk in a week