Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Nicole 0:00

I say that our bodies have inherent value one because from the very beginning the Scriptures tell us that it's created in the image of God. And so the Christian faith teaches that, you know, we have our one God and God made humans and God shows up on the earth through the people of God. So, if we're supposed to be representing God, and our actual bodies are made in God's image, then our bodies have something to offer in all of the unique ways that they exist in this world. And so I think we miss out on being able to see part of that image of God. We just treat our bodies like this hassle that we have to deal with while we're working on purifying our soul.

Seth Intro 1:19

Hello family. Welcome back to the Can I Say This At Church podcast. You guys blow me away each month. I'm continually surprised by the growth of the show the emails that come in. And honestly, it's mind blowing, and it's humbling. And so I thank each and every one of you for downloading the show. And if you haven't yet, share it with your friends. tell people about it. Pick an episode that you love and just have someone else listen to it. I appreciate it.

Today I spoke with Nicole Morgan who's a fellow podcaster and an author. She had a book that came out in August, called Fat and Faithful in that we deal or she deals with topics of body image and the way that culture treats humanity, if they don't think they fit into the mold that we have created for people to fit into. That somehow we're not good enough. We're not enough. We don't measure up if we don't hit some arbitrarily inflated version of beauty, and that's awful. I'm so thankful for this book, and I would encourage each and every one of you to go get it. Nicole has really hit on something here that speaks to me as I see my oldest begin to deal with his weight. And I hear him say things and it breaks my heart. And sometimes I say things and I try to catch myself and that's awful, but it's honest. And that's true. I can't wait for y'all to hear it. Here we go. Nicole Morgan

Seth 3:20

Nicole Morgan, thank you so much for being here on the Can I Say This At Church podcast, I have to think that you've done quite a few of these with your book launch. Thanks for making the time to come on tonight.

Nicole 3:27

Absolutely. Thanks so much for inviting me. I'm looking forward to it.

Seth 3:30

I normally start with a little bit about you. But I'm also curious because I also know that you run another podcast or at least, I think you do. And so I'd like you to talk about both of those kind of a little bit about you for those listening and kind of what you do on the side besides the book.

Nicole 3:44

Um, yeah, so my name is Nicole Morgan, and I am a Christian fat acceptance advocate. As you just mentioned, my book just came out August 1, 2018. It's called Fat and Faithful Learning to Love our Bodies, Our Neighbors and Ourselves. So the work that I do in Christian fat acceptance is advocating on behalf of people who are fat or plus size or overweight or whatever term people use to call themselves about, that their bodies are made in the image of God, and that they, as people, as Christians, as people of faith, still have all of the same worth and dignity and value and ability to participate in the life of the church and to serve God fully and to love their neighbors, just as they are and to kind of fight the body shame that happens both in culture but also in our church.

So that's that what I do here in Atlanta, Georgia and work on that. And then as you mentioned, I also host a podcast by the same name I co host that with a woman named Amanda Martinez Beck, who is a size dignity activist and she works also with within the Christian faith specifically from a Catholic background and She has a book coming out later this year as well. So it's a great year for body diversity books and faith.

And so that podcast we talk about just various issues that come up with bodies, and culture and faith and the politics and what that looks like to both accept ourselves in practical ways, and how do we take that understanding of ourselves as made in the image of God and transfer that view to everyone around us, both neighbors and enemies to use that church terminology. And how does that make us be a better church, when we can love ourselves and and love our neighbors as ourselves?

Seth 5:38

I think the church would be so much better if we could learn to do that not just around body image around around all the things, everything that you argue about on Facebook, or Twitter or Snapchat or some other social media that I'm not aware of that the kids don't, quote, unquote, participate in. So you alluded to it. So there's another book coming out from a friend of yours, co host with but so why now? As I scan Amazon, which, oddly enough, I'm sure you're aware of, there's only a handful of your books left in stock as of as of right now. So that's, that's, that's did

Nicole 6:11

Oh! I did not realize that!

Seth 6:12

17 or 16, or something like that. So that's, that's a great thing. Yeah, you're doing it. So why now? Because as you as I scan, TV, as I scan social media, there seems to be a big movement for this not just in the church. So why do you think it is now? The conversation about acceptance of the body and what you were created in is more than fine? Then you are what you are? Why, why now?

Nicole 6:43

Yeah, I think in many ways, it's funny. You mentioned social media because I think in many ways social media has been a part of fat people and other marginalized people having a voice that is heard. The fat acceptance movement in the secular Like American modern world started in the 70s. But in the secular mainstream world that's really become a prominent topic in our media, like loving your body and accepting yourself has been a much more talked about topic even than like 15 years ago, which is when I first heard about it. And I think a large part of that is Twitter or Facebook, people are allowed to present themselves as they want to be presented both in voice and picture.

All the selfies you see on Instagram all the time. Sometimes they get a bad rap but it's powerful to be able to present your image the world in the way that you see yourself, or just the reality of yourself. So often depictions of fat people in movies or tv or even like pictures that go with news articles are very dehumanizing often, if you'll notice if you're reading a news article about what you know I'm air quotes here obesity epidemic or anything related to fatness there's this phenomenon we call the “headless fatty”. And it's always like the person never has a face. It's just like their fat body, very dehumanizing. But social media has allowed fat people to present their selfies and their pictures of themselves during their life. And just to amplify that, and I think that's why we're finally kind of ready to hear it because we've come to know people who are fat and heard their stories.

Seth 8:24

So as I was reading your book, so I read it one and a half times I read it one time, and then I wanted to go back to a few chapters, specifically, and and I, and I want to end on one portion as we get later to our time, but you talk in your book about bodies being inherently valuable. And normally when I talk about inherent value, at least for a good portion of my year, I've looked at other religions as having truth and value. I've looked at other ethnicities is having truth and value but if I'm honest I don't usually look at bodies as having any inherent value. But you talk quite well to that. So why are our bodies that are not I want I don't want to sound crass. There's a part of me that thinks, well, this is going to die anyway, this isn't really me. And if it's throwaway if I get to have it for just a handful of years and an infinite eternity of being, why is it valuable?

Nicole 9:25

Yeah, and that whole like it is gonna die anyways, thing I hear.

Seth 9:30

I don't say that is as “Alright, so now I'm gonna go shoot up some heroin and do whatever. I don't want it in that way.”

Nicole 9:37

It just have less value than your eternal soul or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a pretty common belief going back into the history of Christianity. I say that value bodies have inherent value one because from the very beginning, like the Scriptures tell us that it's created in the image of God. And so the Christian faith teaches that we have our one God and God made humans and God shows up on the earth through the people of God.

So, if we're supposed to be representing God, and our actual bodies are made in God's image, then these our bodies have something to offer in all of the unique ways that they exist in this world. And so I think we miss out on being able to see part of that image of God, when we just treat our bodies like these, this hassle that we have to deal with while we're working on purifying our soul.

And like I talked about in the book that like when I started to try to find the image of God in my body, the thing that sticks out that is most obvious and apparent to me and my body is just warmth and softness and comfort. And so I have like nieces and nephews and like they in particular, like just love to cuddle and they find me comforting And so they love to just snuggle in. And that's not the entirety of who God is but that's a part of who God is. And my body shows that in a unique way that thin bodies don't. That's not a bad thing, thin body show other parts of God. But we have to be able to see everyone, and to see that image of God and everyone and our bodies are a big part of that. And then that just continues when Jesus shows up, Jesus chooses the human body to show up on earth and experiences, the pain and the joy of the human body, he feast, and he cries, and he's crucified and all of that, and that suffering and that joy and that life is a part of how we can relate to Jesus.

I'm a big believer that a Christian faith is about modeling the life and work of Jesus Christ and following that Christocentric as they call it, a very Christocentric faith and so, just knowing that Jesus existed and he body just connects me to that so much more when I think about how my body exists in the world and feels pain and joy and feasting, and all those things.

Seth 12:11

Do you think that the way that we treat and I'm going to borrow I think it's a title of chapter one of your title of Adele, gosh, I can't talk I'm going to edit all that out. I'm going to borrow the title of one of the chapters in your book, I believe it's called thinness is next to godliness. And I could be wrong. But I studied art in college quite a bit. And it doesn't seem like until now until around now, quote unquote, air quotes now that we cared about thinness as much as we do or about carnality as much as we do. As you look back, you know it old sculptures and old beautiful masterpieces in old paintings. There was no issue with any form of plump there was no issue with fat, not there. may have been an issue for the people that live there. I didn't live there. But there may have been. So why do you think it's now that our culture our country specifically has made I guess what I would call an idol out of being, thin?

Nicole 13:13

Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do. I mean, there's always a larger socio political thing going on. And so, it used to be that the people who had the access to the most resources who are most wealthy, that they were on the larger side, just because of what could they can afford, they didn't do as much physical labor as others. And so your size was a signifier of your wealth and your status. And that is almost completely opposite, and are in America, at least in order to access you know, personal trainers or gym memberships or explore the juice cleanse or grapes? Yes. Or grapes or all your organic, whatever GMO produce that I don't even know like that requires access to wealth and privilege and time and resources.

And so a slim body is a marker of status in our society now and so our human desire to look like we have it all together hasn't changed but the way that we have it all together and what that means about our lived life is definitely evolved over the course of human history, but it's still about trying to be better than your neighbors in the way that your body looks or like somehow having achieved some greater status.

Seth 14:41

Well, I will say I have three small children and well and my wife and myself but when we try to eat healthfully if that's a word I feel like that is a word health will say it's a word. Sure. It's it is now I'm gonna Yeah, well, it'll make it happen. If I want to buy you know boxes of Oreos or boxes of anything that are pre made pre packaged, you know lean cuisines or Lunchables or any of that garbage. It is extremely cheaper or entirely entirely cheaper to just buy something packed full of sodium or something you know already pre made in a you know in a vacuum seal somewhere.

But if I want to buy say, a pound of grapes, it's more than two or three gallons of gasoline. It boggles my mind how if we want to even try to force them to eat vegetables. There is a cost even buying them to get them to stub their noses at it.

Nicole 15:39

Right and then on top of all of that, if you go to a fast food restaurant and buy a combo meal, your meal is hot and ready. You're going to eat the whole thing you don't need to store leftovers. If you go to the grocery store and buy all the ingredients to make a hamburger and you know bake some fries in the oven. You need to time to cook it, where's the store it you need access to the appliances to make it and that's not always accessible to everyone, especially the time to do that. So the people who work multiple jobs and all of that so the levels of privilege involved in what we call healthy eating is many and layered.

Seth 16:22

Yeah, the um, I saw an article not long ago about that called food deserts is what they call it, where I guess they survey how close you are to something that isn't fast food, like your accessibility within walking distance. And the town of the country that was in what we call a food desert is awful. And I also don't find it coincidentally, I find it odd that it's always socio-economically depressed populations of our cities that are in those quote unquote food deserts. It's not the suburbs. It's it's the densely populated. I'm curious and this is this not a fair question. Why? Why would you ever teach English I read that in your book and I stopped and I paused. I feel like I Why would anyone…

Nicole 17:15

I don't know. I enjoyed teaching with like working with this begins but it was really just the default thing that I did after high school like I was like, I'll go to college get a teaching degree. I like English and then you know, you graduate college and you get a job. And you teach and I taught for three years.

Seth 17:38

Do you miss it?

Nicole 17:40

I miss working with like teenagers and students. I don't miss teaching. I just Yeah, I was. I was a good teacher.

Seth 17:48

I read that. So tomorrow for a time of recording is back to school for my kids. And so I was reading that I was like, you could not pay me enough money to substitute teach. You couldn't pay…Don't want…I have No, no reason to ever want to do that I would rather stand in traffic with a sign.

Nicole 18:07

Oh, the kids are great. It's just

Seth 18:09

Don't lie to me.

Nicole 18:10

It’s the politics and all the craziness that gets ya.

Seth 18:14

In your book, you have a chapter on Gnosticism, which I feel like we’ll have to unpack what that is to begin with. But I had never really given much thought of the concepts of Gnosticism and how that relates to our bodies, how we respect our bodies, how we treat our bodies. Can you unpack that a bit? And I guess we should probably start with what Gnosticism is?

Nicole 18:38

Yeah, so Gnosticism is, depending on who you ask, either a heresy of the Christian faith or an entirely different faiths all together. And it one of its primary I can't think of the word tenants or beliefs is this idea like that the soul is the important part and your body is what has to be conquered. This is like dualism like soul and body are two different things. And so Gnosticism really devalues the body at the saying that it needs to be conquered or tamed or discipline in order to elevate the soul so that it can be pure and holy, and you can achieve your oneness with God. And so that's a very brief focused definition on body image, specifically, but you'll see people mention it a lot these days. Like once you hear that's one of those words you hear all the time. But that's what they're talking about this idea that like, your soul is this holy thing that is separate from the rest of you.

Seth 19:42

What sounds kind of similar to what I alluded to in the beginning, and I don't know that I would call myself a Gnostic Christian.

Nicole 19:49

Yeah, I think my belief is that like these gnostic thoughts are very much kind of, there's these little strands of them that I'm sure information treated like modern day American Christianity, and that you kind of have to like pay attention to pick them out. Otherwise, they're just there. And maybe they don't make too big of an impact on you. They're just kind of there and you kind of accept them as true without really thinking about them much.

But yeah, so Gnosticism dualism, this idea that bodies are bad souls are good. And they're these two opposing forces, is what I say is an incorrect belief and not a thing that God desires for us to treat our bodies like

Seth 20:32

So how does that relate them to the way that we view our bodies today in the church and in the way that we, you know, we teach our children.

Nicole 20:45

So, in the church growing up I heard a lot was like every week, but frequently enough that it was common for me to hear like you'd hear sermons about the verses where you like run the good race and discipline and all of that, and the illustration was always, you know, look, you exercise and watch what you eat that you can, you know, be thin or not look good that our pastors would say I don't want to be a fat lazy preacher. And so it was this idea that your body was somehow working against you and your faith, and that your body was some kind of symbol of how strong your faith was. And if your body didn't line up with what we had decided was good, then you didn't have enough faith and that your body was winning over your soul, or over your fruit of your spirit is what was usually sad in in my context.

And so, we don't say, wasn't body and soul so much that God said when in the church experience I had, but it was faith and flesh and that flesh was this thing you had to conquer, and then included the literal size of your body and that if you trusted God and had self discipline, then you could honor your temple which is another biblical keyword and look thin.

And that's because our culture has taught us that there's this one, or at least a very narrow range of what a healthy body looks like, or an acceptable body. And I think in culture at large, we see this Gnosticism idea. I think that's the root of things like anorexia. This is not a thing that I have struggled with personally. And so like, should definitely hear about that from people who live that experience. But from the reading I've done, I hear frequently, that they're, often the motivation is you just want to be last you want to make your body less because that's the thing that can somehow free up some other parts of your brain or psyche or internal being. And so this whole idea of like literally carving away your body, through restriction and discipline, in order that some other element of who you are can be elevated and so that's a very like kind of gnostic idea of our bodies and our souls are our our internal being who we are.

Seth 23:12

The temple texts that you're talking about. I always heard, that was always preached to me, and it may be preached differently to a woman than a man I'm coming as I get older I'm realizing that youth pastors in specific the same versus used in a different way with a different intent depending on your gender, which is insulting..

Nicole 23:38

(Sarcasm) There’s not a boys and girls section of the Bible‽

Seth 23:39

No well, it's in the Apocrypha from what I hear. So when I heard honoring the temple it was it was more sexual based. It wasn't more you know, you here honoring the temple and that's why we don't have sex before marriage and we honor the temple and that's why we don't do drugs. That's why we don't do tattoos. That's why you don't. You know, that's why you don't treat people poorly because you're honoring the temple. It was never, never told to me in a way that was that was food related.

Nicole 24:13

Yeah, I think I mean, I heard all those other things as well. And this could have just been like my own perception that highlighted the part about, you know, your body needs to be healthy and 10 and everything. Right, that was definitely part of the teaching. And then if you look at the there's two, two different verses that talk about like the temple or the body of, of God, and I always forget which reference is where, but when the context does have to do with like this idea of sexual morality and what that means sexual ethics. And another one is talking about the actual church like the church as a whole, our whole everyone together like as a collective group of people, not individual people.

Which to me is a totally different thing like so why am I talk like to focus on individual purity or righteousness or whatever word you're going to use when you're actually supposed to be talking about how everything impacts around you and that community as a whole, and our ability to do the mission of God to love, love others and love our neighbors and love enemies. That's a totally different conversation. And I think we lose out on so much. And we've so focused on individual instead of the community.

Seth 25:36

So, there's a portion of me and my son's at that age now he just turned nine. And you can see him and if I'm honest, sometimes it's my fault, say, but we can't eat that we need to eat an apple, just because I know he just spent the weekend at Grandma's and all they ate was donuts. And I know this because that's grandma's and so how do we as a church and then and then How do you think we as parents can better? I don't want to stigmatize my son where he's afraid of food. If he's like me when he gets older, he'll go screw you, dad. I'm doing. I'm eating the donuts. You can't stop me. I'm almost a full grown man. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Well, you know what I mean? He's fairly tall. He is. But how do we do it better than what we've been doing? How do we not abuse those scriptures? How do we not abuse emotional influence?

Nicole 26:33

Yeah, I think there's a few different ways to focus on one is just and how you talk about or notice other bodies. One thing with kids is that they notice of their bodies and they will comment. And so as they comment, or, or notice, especially other fat bodies, like just being able to say, Yeah, like, make it very neutral. That's their body. God made them and that their body is okay. And whatever age appropriate way to address that with kids, oftentimes, like kids will say stuff directly to me and almost every other fat person I know we don't care when kids say stuff to us, we know it's just like natural curiosity and they have questions. And those of us who are like in the fat acceptance movement are happy to just kind of do that nonchalant Yeah, I am fat answer and just be positive about it, which is really, I think, for kids really impactful.

In terms of like food specifically, I always advise whether it's food or like exercise or anything else, like the goal is to do it in a weight neutral way. And so it makes complete sense to help them learn how to eat intuitively. And by that I mean connecting, like the food they eat with how they feel later. So, hey, you had all of those snacks at Grandma's like you are super, super, like, hyper at night and had a hard time falling asleep. And just like connecting all those dots for them, or, hey, we're gonna go, you know, whatever your activity is for that afternoon, they might need some energy for these kinds of foods give you energy usually. So let's eat this and see how you feel later. And just modeling what that looks like to pay attention to the nutrients that are in their food and what that does, and that can also be worried a birthday party. We're gonna celebrate any cake. It tastes good. Isn't it fun to eat this thing that tastes good while we're celebrating? And yeah, I think it's just really important to not give food moral value. Some people will call it like, “always food and sometimes food” which I'm kind of ambivalent about.

Seth 28:48

What does that even mean?

Nicole 28:50

Always food would be like, you can always have vegetables or you know, like the things that we call in the sometimes food is like sometimes we have k Sometimes we have ice cream. Yeah. And like that's a better option than a lot of things sometimes I'm like I don't know that I don't have kids so

Seth 29:07

yeah, well for me my always food would be we eat at home because it's overall cheaper for me to feed all of you in the crock pot. And the sometimes food is anything that is not within these four walls, because I can’t afford you.

Seth 29:52

That brings me to this point. So you speak on Health at Every Size and and I know that That's possible and, but I don't. I can understand here's this is a little more personal than I normally get on any episode. So my father currently has cancer. He's actually checked in today to do an experimental treatment in Houston. For his, his uh, this is our last shot. Let's see what happens kind of thing, which is a fantastic place to be in. I hope the sarcasm is coming through there for everybody listening. That's how I deal. That's how I deal with stress. Yeah, Houston, we had problem.

Um, so he's six foot four, and at the time a few years ago was over 400 pounds. He wasn't always that way. I have no idea why he got as big as he was, but I honestly didn't care. But when he started to get sick, he would go to the doctor and doctor would look at him spend 15 minutes with him and send him on his way. We're going to need to regulate your diet.

Few months goes later. He's still sick. A few months goes later. He's still sick. Years passed by still sick until eventually on a Black Friday, he ends up having to go to the emergency room with jaundice apparently he has had an extremely slow growing cancer that no one ever thought to look for. Because all they see is a tall, extremely big man. Of course, that's why you have diabetes, if you would just stop lying about sticking to your diet, it would go away, you could be better! When really his pancreas has been shredded over the course of years, because people only see his body.

So Ah, that makes me so mad. So how, how do we differentiate or how do we learn to see people as a health base as opposed to a? Here's how much clothing you have on your skin or here's how much skin you have on your bones?

Nicole 31:50

Yeah, so there's so many levels to that and I'm so sorry about your dad. That story is far too common that people being just like diagnosed as fat and sent away from the doctor and never having actual medical care provided to them. So on one level trying to break down the answer here.

So on one level, there's actual medical professionals. Studies have shown that if medical professionals receive even just like the slightest bit of weight bias training, while they're in school, that the way that they treat fat patients is better, that they are less likely to view fat patients is like non compliant and stupid and all of that, which is a thing that happens frequently even in the medical profession was there's just those biases against fat people from medical professionals. So that's one part of it is educating them on fat bias and what that means.

And then another part is just letting fat people know what their rights are at the doctor's office. So many things it's scary to go because so many of us like your dad show up. And we have real problems and we know something is wrong and all they keep saying is lose weight and they won't do anything else. And so you just stopped going. And so many fat people will just not do annual checkups. And they will ignore their health, because they know it's pointless to show up or they fear that it's pointless to show up. So giving that people tools to walk into the doctor's office and say, I know that I need this size of blood pressure cuff, and here's my complaints. And if you told me to lose weight, I'm going to keep pressuring you. I'm going to look for another doctor and just empowering people to make to advocate for themselves on that level is important. A woman named Reagan has a great resource for that but I have links on my blog and everything.

Seth 33:57

I will find that and I will post it. So what does help Look like then for someone that's quote unquote, overweight, you know, based on that nice little chart that also says I'm overweight. Yeah, which is fine. I'm fine with that. Why not?

Nicole 34:12

Yeah, I should have clarified earlier Health at Every Size doesn't mean that everyone will be healthy always it means that everyone no matter their size can make steps towards health if that's what they desire to do. And so I there's a study out, it's fairly old now, but it was lots of data, lots of people and they show there's four contributing factors that if you did these four things, your likelihood of getting you know, this host of diseases or dying early was low, and the four things were like, Don't smoke, no excessive use of alcohol, eat lots of fruits and veggies and like, do 30 minutes of exercise three times a week.

And so kind of like those four things. I'm like, if you want, if that's someone's goal is to work towards a healthy lifestyle. I'm like, aim for those for first, like, because there's some studies out that show no matter your size, those four things, make vast improvements. And then I think also for fat people in particular, health is really about showing up for your annual checkups and like taking that step and that courage to show up at a doctor's office and find one that's going to listen to you. And that's a lot of work for fat people to find a doctor that will listen and not dismiss them. But once people are ready for that step, that's a very brave step for many people and what I very much encourage.

Seth 35:40

So there's a difference between being fat and being gluttonous. And you talk about this quite a bit your book and the reason I bring this up is I have friends that can eat an entire Papa John's pizza, and I would call that gluttony. And then I have other friends that eat barely anything, and it doesn't really seem to affect their weight and I don't mean that to say that you can't obviously over eat at a consistent level and gain weight. That's easy enough to do because calories are just math. But what is the difference between fatness and gluttony?

Nicole 36:13

Yeah, the amount people eat some fact every single body different ways. That's never a good indicator size in terms of gluttony. So fatness is just your body size, what you look like or how much fat is on your body. gluttony is about consumption. And I argue that gluttony is consumption at the expense of others, especially the marginalized people. So if you look at our modern context, and we look at the food that we consume, one thing that I think about a lot is quinoa, which was like this huge craze, and I think everyone still eats it, and I still eat it on occasion. But I read an article probably four or five years ago now, that was talking about how The communities who had been growing and eating and harvesting quinoa for generations as a staple in their diet, their economy was suddenly devastated by the US quinoa demand.

We all wanted it as the next health food, easy protein. And it just hurt these people who had been eating it forever. And it was communities that had less financial resources. And so to me, consuming quinoa without at least thinking about that or considering it or monitoring like how much you eat of it—that's gluttony. Like when you don't even care about how your food choices affect other people. And there's Biblical examples of that one, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, which people are normally familiar with and associated with other things, but in a Ezekiel there's a verse that says that the sin of Sodom was that they were overfed and unconcerned for the poor. And if you go back and you look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, in Genesis, you just see this pattern where they didn't care about the people around them. They trying to remember the story, I always get the order mixed up, but there's the visitors to the town and the townspeople demand that they come out so that they can use them sexually, and then lot offers up his daughters instead.

Seth 38:29

Father of the year.

Nicole 38:30

Right? Yeah, like this general disregard for anyone else's humanity, everyone else who wants something, consume whatever they want, no matter the cost to other people. And so that is gluttony, not being fat, because God tells us to feast feast or all over the Bible, so feasting can't be gluttony, in and of itself, I think has to be about motivation and how it impacts people around us just much harder to figure out than just saying no to do the whole Paba John's pizza.

Seth 39:02

Yeah, well, and I guess gluttony can then be, can be any. It doesn't have to be food. You can be gluttonous in anything, I guess. Yeah,

Nicole 39:11

yeah, we're certainly all guilty of it at any point during the day and the way that we live in America, like it's fairly impossible to escape with just our standard life.

Seth 39:22

So, I grew up in the early 90s, where every youth pastor that I know, said, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and my smokin hot wife, and you would hear that everywhere you go. And then I went to Liberty and met many women that were on their what we call the “Mrs. degree”, and that was a word they told me, I have to hope that you're familiar with that…

Nicole 39:47

Oh yeah! Ring by spring, all that. Yeah. Yeah.

Seth 39:50

We used to have a secondary part of that or if you failed, there was a new stanza and I can't remember what it is anymore. But you so there's a chapter your new book for is called fat girls and righteous boxes. And as you break that down, but from a point of view that I've never considered, I can't help but think how many times I was told that and that I then, especially early on in my college career echoed the same thing.

Like if I'm approaching a woman because I think she's quote unquote, beautiful, it's probably her fault. And I can remember one time a specific Professor saying, ladies, I don't want you to jump into your pants from the top bunk, that's too tight. This is a seminary. We are here to study Scripture, stop it, and that was at Liberty. And so I kept hearing all of that echo around in my head as I read that chapter and that is one of the ones that I read multiple times. As I lived in the beginning, just because I've never heard the point. I've never heard the damage that that attitude towards anybody, but it's Specifically female bodies can do, which is extremely sexist.

Nicole 41:07

Yeah, there is this huge movement. It's called parody culture a lot when it gets talked about these days when people critiquing it that as girls we were often taught that we weren't supposed to focus on our outward beauty. Because that was not the important thing that we are supposed to be so close to God and so righteous that like our inward beauty would shine out and then men we're supposed to see our inward beauty and not our outward beauty and then that's how you you know, you ever hear the old joke like run towards God and then if someone's already next to you, that's the one? That was repeated phrase, you run, you run your ride, and then someone ends up running next to you And anyway, that's the thing. So, but for me, so like this whole beauty thing was very confusing one to be told not to look work on your beauty but also to focus on your beauty. But one was outward and one was inward. And we never really talked about how that actually looked any different.

But as a fat teenager sitting there listening to all of this, I really did like I believed them. And so kind of I tuned out all of the warnings about like needing to not focus on my outward beauty because I'm like, well, that's easy, done check, like, no one's like finding me beautiful, which was, you know, my teenage thoughts. And so it really left me vulnerable to people who would, who could see that I didn't have that self confidence and wanted to manipulate that and abuse that and ended I ended up in a really bad relationship in college, partially due, I think to that. And then at the same time, I was just extremely like confused. The relationship that I got into in college like I was convinced that Oh, it worked. Finally, finally, someone saw my inner beauty and clearly this is the one God sent along, because he saw it when I had this like, really like shell that only that no one would want except the person who saw the inner beauty.

And so yeah, for me, in particular, that was kind of how that whole message got twisted up in my head. And I know for many other people just don't focus on your looks, but do focus on your beauty. And it's really confusing and I'm sure, I don't know like you as a male if you ever got told to look for inner beauty instead of outer beauty or what you thought that meant…

Seth 43:54

No, and that's why I read that chapter. So many times. Like what I was told was, if, if for some reason I screw up and I do it wrong, it's pretty much her fault. Because she should have done it better, she should have guarded her body better. To put it poorly. She should have dressed like an Amish or Mennonite way. This is totally her fault. You can't help yourself. This is the way that we were made. And, and you what you need to find this is someone that will help you control yourself is is now that may just be my upbringing. And then I compounded it by going to an extremely conservative school. But that I mean,

Nicole 44:42

Yeah that sounds familiar as well, like I remember when I was in college, our pastor did an entire series on sex and he he definitely said that it was a woman's job to stop it before I got too far because men lacked the ability to have that kind of self control. So Yeah,

Seth 45:00

Yeah. Which which from the male side gives me permission to not have any self control.

Nicole 45:05

Yeah, push it as far as she'll let you go cuz she's supposed to be the one to…

Seth 45:09

Yeah, yeah women are not supposed to be inherent sexual or purity police officers. So at least so part of what broke a lot of this open for me is is having daughters, I, I really struggled like like my daughter is very I'ma say beautiful, but I'm biased because she's my daughter, but she wanted a bikini for her birthday. And we bought her one because she's six, whatever. But I can't stand it. There's still a portion of me that's like someone is going to look at her in a way that's inappropriate. And I'm sure they're not; she's six. But there's still something very deep in me pounded in there that wants her to cover herself—like it's her job to do so. And then there's the other part of me that's like no, she can wear a bikini.

Nicole 46:00

Yeah, it's hard and part of that is teaching her that she is in control of her body and that she's not responsible for anyone else's actions.

Seth 46:11

I want to end with this is so if we can as a church as a culture as spouses as brothers and sisters and nieces and uncles and whatever if we can move past weight, and height, and sex and gender, and orientation of other you know, human beings, what, biblically, do you think beauty should look like?

Nicole 46:38

I mean, I don't know if there's like a one answer to that. I use Song of Solomon and my book, which is like, the metaphors are, you know, swans and yolks and all of that. But I mean, I think I think beauty Gosh, I've never been asked this before. Um, I know I'm okay with everyone having different ideas of what, like beauty or attractiveness like looks like physically. I'm not one of those people who needs to say that every single person is physically beautiful because I don't think that's the most important thing about us. And saying, like, inner beauty gets super, super confusing, as I've talked about. But I guess if I'm speaking like, figuratively, in our beauty, it's like, you know, you see the image of God and people and how do you honor that in everybody? So if you want to honor the beauty and someone to see and to name, where you see the image of God in them and to honor that, yeah, so answer the question.

Seth 47:48

Where can people engage with you? I know I like your pictures on Instagram. Often I enjoy your pictures. They're different. I'm tired of seeing dogs and whatnot. So I Enjoy, enjoy. It isn't everything doesn't need to be a sunset. So, the book is on Amazon. The book is at Fortress Press. But how can people engage with you?

Nicole 48:11

Yeah, so Instagram and Twitter I am J Nicole Morgan, Nikolas and also my website JNicoleMorgan.com where I blog and post stuff. The podcast that I co host with Amanda Martinez back is fat and faithful as well you can find on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, which we should be starting our third season of that soon. And yes, you can look there's a Facebook group called all bodies are good bodies, which is a I think it's a closed group, whichever one you can find, but then the membership is closed. But you can search for that if you want to join which is a lot of different people talking about bodies and faith and all of this how it intersects but I am active there as well.

Seth 48:57

If for some reason you feel led to dig in more or you feel Feel convicted or you feel like you want to try to put yourself in a mind place to do this better, at least for today so that you can try again tomorrow. I've asked Nicole to lead the prayer that she has at the end of her book and so situate yourself somewhere pull over if you're driving. I think it's fantastic. So Nicole, whenever you're ready,

Nicole 49:20

Creator God, I acknowledge that my body is made in your image. I am enough, and not too much. I seek and hope that I will find life abundant in the body. I am habit at this moment. I confess that I have believed the lie that a thin body is a better body and that you God will prefer us then at any cost. I praise you for the way our bodies take up space in a variety of ways. I commit today to be mindful of the ways the bodies I see around me reflect your image. I give thanks for a God who gives us purpose and meaning no matter the size or ability of our body. I pray for ears to hear the lies about our worth and a voice to speak truth into the world. May my life and witness make enough space for all together at the table. Amen

Seth 50:15

Beautiful. Thank you again Nicole so much.

Nicole 50:17

Absolutely. Thank you.

Seth Outro 51:03

That’s a big topic. Body image shame and what true beauty is, I genuinely pray that we can begin to overcome this version of hit the small view of humanity, that somehow we think we're not good enough. Because we are, we always have been and we always will be good enough and we were made whole. And there's nothing to be ashamed of the way that we were made, regardless of what that looks like.

Thank you so much to the supporters of the show on Patreon. If you haven't yet do that, that continues to help the show be sustaining to be a show. And next year, I would love to take some of my vacation time or personal days into a live version of the show. I would love to meet some of you all that has a small cost to it for space and travel. I would love to meet guests where they are and do live Q and A's and have you all involved in it. I think that would be fantastic for you to ask your own questions directly to the guest and I would floor me So consider that.

Remember to rate the show, share it on iTunes and everywhere else that you listen to it a very big special thank you to the music of the many that was used in this show. And so a little bit about them. They are an uncommon and intentionally diverse collective making music for people to sing together about peace and justice in a world where we all belong. Go to the mini are here calm. There are so many resources and just beautiful, intentional music about different topics. I promise you if you do it like I did, you will be lost in music for hours to comment it is entirely worth it. But please do that support the musicians that lend their music to this show.

I can't wait to talk with you next week.